The Zen of Yoda and the Jedis
00njh...@bsu-ucs.uucp
I just saw "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" again
a little while ago and was amazed at the Zen that Yoda was teaching.
Stuff like telling Luke to "unlearn what you have learned" and when Luke
asks what's in the spooky cave on Dagobah - Yoda replies "Only what you
take with you" (what a run-on sentence). Anyone else notice any more things
that I can't remember?
Nik
Wetoskey Academy of Martial Arts
JAMES MITCHE COCKERHAM
In article <1992Jul11....@bsu-ucs.uucp>, 00njh...@bsu-ucs.uucp writes:
|>Path: sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!news.cs.indiana.edu!bsu-cs!bsu-ucs.uucp!00njhavert
|>From: 00njh...@bsu-ucs.uucp
|>Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
|>Subject: The Zen of Yoda and the Jedis
|>Message-ID: <1992Jul11....@bsu-ucs.uucp>
|>Date: Sat, 11 Jul 92 13:38:42 GMT+5:00
|>Lines: 10
Finally! The Force be praised! After months of reading this newsgroup, I
have at long last found a reference to Star Wars Zen/MA! I was really
beginning to wonder if any rec.M-A readers had even _seen_ this trilogy.
But seriously, I have often wondered if George Lucas' vision of the Star
Wars story was influenced by the rising popularity of martial arts and, for
lack of a better word, alternative spirituality (transcendental meditation,
karma, Eastern philosophy, etc...). At any rate, I think the ideas
presented by Yoda are good summations of basic martial arts philosophy:
For example, Beware the Dark Side / Use the Force to defend, never to attack.
Mitch -----------------------> jmco...@eos.ncsu.edu
<<< Stealth .sig - it's here, but its cross-section is damn small >>>
Steve Popovich
> Wars story was influenced by the rising popularity of martial arts and, for
> lack of a better word, alternative spirituality (transcendental meditation,
> karma, Eastern philosophy, etc...). At any rate, I think the ideas
> presented by Yoda are good summations of basic martial arts philosophy:
> For example, Beware the Dark Side / Use the Force to defend, never to attack.
Well, filmmakers have to get their ideas from somewhere. And he did
overdo it a bit, with having Yoda speak in that "Sensei-ese" he used
-- English with a Japanese-like Subject-Object-Verb syntax. I don't
know much Japanese, but names like Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi might even
mean something. Hmmm...I probably shouldn't mention this, but since
the Emperor was able to throw bolts of pure "Force" energy to attack
Luke, I suppose ki phenomena must be very real in the Star Wars
universe (which says nothing about how real they may be in our own).
Those bolts were like something out of a particularly bad MA movie.
Myself, I liked how Luke had to be taught to "let go" (free his mind
from stopping and fixating on any one point) before he could learn to
fight like a Jedi.
U55...@uicvm.uic.edu
>
> I just saw "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" again
>a little while ago and was amazed at the Zen that Yoda was teaching.
Hey! Howabout the MARTIAL ART he was teaching. I'd love to learn THAT!
Can someone tell me where my local jedi-dojo is? Will I have to go to a
swamp to learn. I've been trying to baild my own lightsaber, but it is
hard...
Really, I remember in the file he had to build his own lightsaber to be a
jedi. I remember in a book on the ninja I read that ninjas had to be able to
build their own weapons. Some aspects of the film a assuredly M.A. inspired,
I.M.H.O.
--DAVE!!!!!!!
Gordon Wormser
> But seriously, I have often wondered if George Lucas' vision of the Star
> Wars story was influenced by the rising popularity of martial arts and, for
> lack of a better word, alternative spirituality (transcendental meditation,
> karma, Eastern philosophy, etc...). At any rate, I think the ideas
> presented by Yoda are good summations of basic martial arts philosophy:
> For example, Beware the Dark Side / Use the Force to defend, never to attack.
>
>
> Mitch -----------------------> jmco...@eos.ncsu.edu
>
> <<< Stealth .sig - it's here, but its cross-section is damn small >>>
Ha! Go see Kurasawa's Hidden Fortress. You'll see that the original Star
Wars was a total plot steal.
--
admiral!fl...@uunet.uu.net (Gordon Wormser) <uunet!admiral!flash>
The Admiral's Public UNIX - Greenwich, CT - System Administrator: Doug Fields
(HST/V32) (203)661-2873 -- (PEP/V32) -1279 -- (V32) -0450 -- (V29/MNP6) -2967
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Jonathan Dwyer
|> Go see Kurasawa's Hidden Fortress. You'll see that the original Star
|> Wars was a total plot steal.
Last week _Yojimbo_ (or _Yoshimbo_) was shown on broadcast TV again
here as part of a series of "Films about Men". Every time I see it I crack up!
It was Kurasawa's 1961 Samurai sendup of the American "Western" genre,
(some say also a sendup of USA-USSR cold-war relations in the fifties) and
the plot was then stolen back as Clint Eastwood's first movie: _A Fist Full
of Dollars_.
But then Kurasawa stole _King Lear_ for _Ran_ didn't he, so the flow of
Mu-Ve Ki goes both ways, evidentially :-)
--
Jonathan Dwyer
jona...@psych.psy.uq.oz.au
David Poore
>In article <1992Jul11....@bsu-ucs.uucp>, 00njh...@bsu-ucs.uucp says:
>> I just saw "Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi" again
>>a little while ago and was amazed at the Zen that Yoda was teaching.
>swamp to learn. I've been trying to baild my own lightsaber, but it is
>hard...
This reminds me of something...I too watched em on the networks when
they ran again.
I thought the lightsaber fight correography sucked. I found myself
wondering why, with such a weapon, one would need to take a baseball-bat
windup!? I was thinking something much tighter, and maybe circular would
be more appropriate to the weapon. Comments?
David Poore "Try not! DO. Or do not!"
po...@ds9.scri.fsu.edu -Yoda
Mr. X
>
>For example, Beware the Dark Side / Use the Force to defend, never to attack.
How about: beware BOTH sides / Use appropriately as needed?
-Andy V.
Steve Gombosi
>jmco...@eos.ncsu.edu (JAMES MITCHE COCKERHAM) writes:
>
>> But seriously, I have often wondered if George Lucas' vision of the Star
>> Wars story was influenced by the rising popularity of martial arts and, for
>
>Wars was a total plot steal.
Well, imitation *is* the sincerest form of flattery. Apparently, Lucas
idolizes Akira Kurosawa...to the point where he assisted him on (I think)
_Kagemusha_. As I recall Spielberg did, too.
Steve
Jonathan J. Smith
I can think of a few reasons one would be much more apt to use the entire length of such a weapon rather than just the point.
First off you have a much better chance of deflecting the other blade with the
larger portion of the blade, than with small parts, take Epee for example,
which is almost entirely done with point, there is almost NO parring done
in bouts as a general rule. Anyone with that much blade is much more apt to
use it in more broad sense than usual, (although, the wind-up and swing I think
is a bit ridiculous). After all why limit yourself to just point work when
you have so much more area thats deadly (especially with something like
a light sabre, not much stoped it). Again, example from fencing :), take the sabre
which is a weapon where you score points by hiting either with the point or the blade
the changes from normal foil fencing is quite dramatic, from a lot of small
circular motions, to much more broad ones that employ the edge, the edge
becomes your primary striking area, with the point being used for 'suprise' forays.
*shrug*
some thoughts.
Jonatahn Smith.
Dave Pipes x4552
What? Build his own? No...Didn't he just go to Obi-Wan, who gave him the
one his dad left behind? I always figured he had passed the first test by
not turning it on while it faced his stomach...
As for inspiration for the film, try "The Hidden Fortress", one of Akira
Kurosawa's masterpieces. Japanese lord's daughter and top general disappear
as he loses in a rebellion. The lord's fortune in gold is also gone. While
everyone searches for the princess and the gold, two slaves escape and find
some weird gold-filled driftwood, as well as a secretive old man and young
woman living nearby...
I particularly like the bit where Toshiro Mifune chases a Bad Guy down a
tree-shaded lane on horseback, riding fiercely, challenging the guy to fight,
until they both round a corner into an enemy camp. THEN the Bad Guy turns
around and languidly offers to fight...:-). I can see why they picked
Harrison Ford for a similar part in Star Wars...
Anyone else see this film?
David Pipes
rob...@digex.com
Mr. X
>Ha! Go see Kurasawa's Hidden Fortress. You'll see that the original Star
>Wars was a total plot steal.
Speaking of Kurosawa-san, I watched Kagemusha yesterday. GOOD movie.
It was not quite the spectacle of Ran, but I enjoyed it very much, but
then, I enjoy everyhting that man puts on film... at least so far.
Opinions? (on Kagemusha or anything else I've said here :) )
-Andy V.
Mr. X
>
>Really, I remember in the file he had to build his own lightsaber to be a jedi.
And as luck would have it, the hilt is too short, as usual... sheesh.
-Andy V.
Frank Wong
There is a biography of George Lucas called "Skywalking".
Lucas was heavily influenced by myth. He read extensively
the myth and culture of various civilizations.
In "The Power of Myth", Joseph Cambpell talks a bit about
his relationship with Lucas.
The light sabre was modelled after kendo's shinai, and the
clothing of Luke Skywalker after Aikido's gi.
Lucas was heavily influenced by the works of Kurosawa.
His idea of the Force was influenced by the belief that
there is an energy in the universe that some can tap.
Similar to Ki in Japanese martial arts and Qi in Chinese
martial arts.
Frank
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Frank Wong ** * * * * * e-mail: fw...@bnr.ca
Mechanical Engineer
Bell Northern Research
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Standard disclaimers... - BNR does not own or share my opinion!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Gee
>Mu-Ve Ki goes both ways, evidentially :-)
Not to mention 'Throne of Blood' taken from MacBeth or 'The Lower
Depths', which set Gorky's work in Japan.
Kurosawa has always had a reputation for being the most Westernized
of Japan's major film directors.
Ken
Sergej Roytman
|Wars story was influenced by the rising popularity of martial arts and, for
|lack of a better word, alternative spirituality (transcendental meditation,
|karma, Eastern philosophy, etc...). At any rate, I think the ideas
|presented by Yoda are good summations of basic martial arts philosophy:
|For example, Beware the Dark Side / Use the Force to defend, never to attack.
|
I believe that Star Wars was based on a Japanese film called The
Hidden Castle or something like that. I haven't seen the Japanese
film yet -- anyone want to share impressions?
|
|Mitch -----------------------> jmco...@eos.ncsu.edu
|
|<<< Stealth .sig - it's here, but its cross-section is damn small >>>
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| ft...@engin.umich.edu | "... a stainless steel rat in the |
| (Sergej Roytman) | ferroconcrete wainscoting of Internet" |
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Say no to four-line .sigs.
Terry Baxter; Linguistics
the great Japanese director Akiro (cant remember last name) specifically
his movie The Great Fortress.
Dory Baxter
Dave Pipes x4552
to enquire about the availablility of Ba Gua/Pa Kua training there.
Anyone have any info? Thanks!
David Pipes
rob...@digex.com
Reinhard Schoen
Yes. The "Force" is Chi (or Ch'i, Ki, prahna, pneuma, you name it).
I have no intention to raise the usual discussion wether chi
exists or not (BTW, it does). I just read in a SF magazine
that George Lucas once heard about chi and decided to use
this concept in his movie. All the stuff Kenobi and Yoda
do or say about the Force is related to some stories of
the usage of ki.
Another quote I like (from memory, German translation re-
translated):
Luke: "Okay, I'll try."
Yoda: "No, wrong! Do it or don't do it, but don't try!"
__________________________________________________________
Reinhard Schoen
Bruehlstr. 19 rsc...@mathematik.uni-ulm.de
7900 Ulm 12
GERMANY
Reinhard Schoen
popo...@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich) writes:
|>
|> Well, filmmakers have to get their ideas from somewhere. And he did
|> overdo it a bit, with having Yoda speak in that "Sensei-ese" he used
|> -- English with a Japanese-like Subject-Object-Verb syntax. I don't
That's why! I always wondered about the funny German of Yoda -
his object-verb-subject style does not at all resemble "Japanese
German" but the guys (ir-)responsible for movie translation are
not the brightest ones .. they didn't get the idea ..
|> know much Japanese, but names like Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi might even
|> mean something.
George Lucas once said that his concept of Obi-Wan was "half Merlin,
half samurai".
__________________________________________________________
Reinhard Schoen rsc...@mathematik.uni-ulm.de
Bruehlstr. 19
7900 Ulm 12 Eine Kuh macht Muh,
GERMANY viele Kuehe machen Muehe.
barbara.tongue
->|But seriously, I have often wondered if George Lucas' vision of the Star
->|Wars story was influenced by the rising popularity of martial arts and, for
->|lack of a better word, alternative spirituality (transcendental meditation,
->|karma, Eastern philosophy, etc...). At any rate, I think the ideas
->|presented by Yoda are good summations of basic martial arts philosophy:
->|For example, Beware the Dark Side / Use the Force to defend, never to attack.
tthe spirit, so to say, of MA and mythology abound in the star wars trilogy.
as a matter of fact, there are always two things to which i enjoy introducing
my friends - Richard Bach's The Bridge Across Forever and the complete
trilogy (with perhaps Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth - The Journey
of the Hero (which talks lots about mythology and star wars)) thrown in.
seems to me that all too often, folks get hung up on the nifty special
effects and completely miss some of the subtlties inherent in the movie.
for example, take the confrontation between vadar and obi-wan near the
end of star wars - a new hope. obi-wan warns him that "strike me down and
i shall become more powerful than you can imagine." and the moment in
which he saw his student luke standing here in horror, he *knew*
he had won, and put *up* his sword in acceptance to what followed.
ie, his "power" became embued within his student, not himself. or, in
campbell's words (btw, i highly recommend the whole power of myth
series), a transference/growth/selfAwareness step along the journey
of the hero.
however, my all-time favorite spiritual scene has to be in return of
the jedi during the final confrontation between luke and his father.
did y'all notice how both were dressed in black and said confrontation
began within the enclosed area of the ruining staircase? luke's
desires of not fighting with his father (ie, following the good side
of the force) became over-ruled when vadar declared, if you will not
turn to the dark side of the force, then perhaps she will. his love
for his sister won out over his initial resolve! but wait a minute,
isn't love *contained* within the good side of the force? or did
luke demonstrate both the good and the dark, but in a fashion which
caused the audience to cheer him on in his choice? and one final
thing - the galley in which the final fight took place had a.)
a high ceiling b.) a window reminiscent of the stainedGlass windows
of old, and c.) the music conjured up forces which drove the humans
involved, almost independent of their own volition (ie, pure emotion)...
it was the only reference to high mass of christianity
which i could find. you could swear that took place in a cathedral...
'course, though, IMO george lucas melded many many many mythologies/
spiritual concepts into one whole package. obi-wan and yoda represented
the eastern philosophies, luke and han were the twin-hero pair from
greek mythology, etc.
start me on star wars and i go for hours. like the enegizer bunny.
--
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
%% The Speaking Tongue, AT&T %% C Code. C Code Run. Run, Code, RUN! %%
%% b...@homxc.att.com %% PLEASE!!!! %%
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Sergej Roytman
thought about the theoretical feasibility of building a light-sabre?
Some thoughts on the subject (taken from a late-night bull session
with a fellow technogeek):
1. Plasma in a magnetic bottle is likely to roast the wielder with
radiated IR, in addition to scrambling all his credit cards.
2. A thin filement of neutronium (as seen in sci-fi books) would
require some sort of force-field (say, tapering off exponentially
toward the tip of the blade) to hold it up. Disadvantage: unless
I slept through something in freshman physics, this would also
repel the target, making it difficult for the filement to touch it.
This design would also be pretty hard to fence with, as a couple
minutes of untangling would be required after each touching of
blades.
3. A powerful laser aimed at a mirror held in place by a grooved rod.
The grooves on the rod are to reflect the light of an enemy's
beam in broad cones; something powerful enough to be a good weapon
will have very dangerous reflections, even from convex surfaces.
Problem: lasers are pretty inefficient, a long tube is needed for
high power, nuclear power supplies are not very portable.
So, how 'bout it? Am I the only one to have given this topic any
thought or are there others. Finally, do you suppose this sort of
thing *is* possible?
Jonathan J. Smith
Jonathan
Charles Scripter
rsc...@laborix.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen) writes:
> [...]
> this concept in his movie. All the stuff Kenobi and Yoda
Y'know, I didn't notice this before. Do you think there was some
significance to his choice of names: Kenobi? (Ken for sword). ;-)
Was this intentional?.... Or a clever accident?
> do or say about the Force is related to some stories of
> the usage of ki.
--Charles Scripter
Rich Travsky
[ #include all previous posts on this thread; start my own blathering]
In article <1992Jul15....@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>,
b...@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (barbara.tongue) writes:
>[ numerous odds and ends deleted ]
>
> 'course, though, IMO george lucas melded many many many mythologies/
> spiritual concepts into one whole package. obi-wan and yoda represented
> the eastern philosophies, luke and han were the twin-hero pair from
> greek mythology, etc.
>
Yes, yes, and yes, and so on. However, IMHO, the first movie (Star Wars)
of this series stands apart from its sequels (Empire, Return). The theme
was fresh, but the sequels, while good, incorporated too many cutesies
(alas! Marketing Strikes Again); nothing corrupts like success.
In this light, there is much in the first movie that was more myth related
than zen related; the Jedi training parts fall more in the second movie
than the other two. I was hoping that in the third movie, after Luke has
had some training (went pretty quick, didn't it? What!? A Jedi Factory?
I can see the match book ads: "Become A Jedi In Six Months!"), that
the fight scenes would have had as much a mystical/magickal element as
a physical one. Hard to portray no doubt. Barring that, I hoped for
some interesting stunt work (flying leaps, bouncing off walls, more
telekinetic manipulation of loose objects, etc). This probably would
have made it more like a Kung Fooey flick, tho, so its just as well it
didn't happen.
To dwell on myth for a few lines: The first movie, Star Wars, had a strong
storyline that seemed to draw very much on the abduction of Persephone.
Consider: Vader is Hades, abducts Leia/Persephone to the
underworld/Death Star. (I don't have my mythology books here at work,
so I'm sure I'm mixing up Roman/Greek lines.)
Han and Obi-Wan represent Mercury. Mercury is the god of thieves, so there's
Han. One of Mercury's forms was the Bringer of the Word, here this is Obi-Wan
bringing the Force to Luke; Mercury is also the psychopompos, the guide of
the dead in the underworld (Obi-Wan's aid in the Death Star). Chewie
represents a dog, dogs being sacred to Mercury. There's some more odds and
ends, more or less left as an exercise for the reader.
The other two movies did not have this underlying mythological unity.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled newsgroup.
Richard Travsky
Division of Information Technology RTRAVSKY @ CORRAL.UWYO.EDU
University of Wyoming (307) 766 - 3663 / 3668
"Humans. How typical!"
U55...@uicvm.uic.edu
>
>As long as we're talking about Jedis and related topics, has anyone
>thought about the theoretical feasibility of building a light-sabre?
>Some thoughts on the subject (taken from a late-night bull session
>with a fellow technogeek):
>
>
>So, how 'bout it? Am I the only one to have given this topic any
>thought or are there others. Finally, do you suppose this sort of
>thing *is* possible?
>
I'v thought about it also( Mostly directly after watching one of the
films.. ) and the only viable ( but not really ) method seemed to be
to have a central core that would carry current to a top electrode.
It would then arc down back to the handle. The plasma thuswise
generated would be contained in a magnetic bottle generated by the core
( I don't think this is possible ). There are obvious technical
obstacles to overcome, and i'm not sure it would be much better than
a regular sword( or a gun )....
--DAVE!!!!
J. Andy Groome
>In article <CrN-Dv
>>
>>As long as we're talking about Jedis and related topics, has anyone
>>thought about the theoretical feasibility of building a light-sabre?
>>Some thoughts on the subject (taken from a late-night bull session
>>with a fellow technogeek):
[stuff deleted] 8< --snip
>( I don't think this is possible ). There are obvious technical
>obstacles to overcome, and i'm not sure it would be much better than
>a regular sword( or a gun )....
>
>
> --DAVE!!!!
Yea, but it sure would look cool! Let's remember what is important.
Andy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy Groome
GTE - Contel Federal Systems
Internet: Andy....@oasis.gtefsd.com
Telephone: (703) 818-5478
Fax: (703) 818-5484
Ed Gruberman
star wars is most definitely not a "total rip-off" of this plot.
there are some plot elements (i think i counted three, and very
minor ones) that these two movies have in common, but the plot
line is not even remotely similar.
just for your info. the movie is very good, btw, and i really wish
i knew more about japanese history; i am sure i would have enjoyed
it even more.
comments: i am confused about how the actress who played princess
suki played her part. was she supposed to be acting boy-like,
or is this the japanese version of a tomboy? her character seemed
a bit two-dimensional.
also, i thought the lance fighting scene was pretty good. any
other comments on the movie itself, and especially the fighting
scenes?
shannon
Servio Fabio Medina
>> Dory Baxter
>>
"THE HIDDEN FORTRESS"