Wing Chun 1 inch punch; Was:BRUCE LEE, multiple actions per second
Hal
thread about punch speed reminded me of my Sifu teaching us the
(at the time) 3 inch punch developed by Wing Chun masters where they
demonstrated you could achieve the same power from a vertical punch
that started only 3 inches from your target as a traditional hard
style straight punch starting at "chamber" (the hand up against the
side of your body). Since then I heard stories that Bruce Lee had
refined that to a 1 inch punch and demonstrated the same result. Is
this true? And does Wing Chun still train with the close-in vertical
punches, and is this what is being used to demonstrate these somewhat
incredible claims of punches per second speeds?
Hal
Michael E. Peter
The 3 inch, 1 inch, 0 inch punches are all just
demonstrations of long bridge force. Force
generation is the same regardless of distance.
Hence there was no 3 inch punch developed by
wing chun masters, nor was that "refined" to
a 1 inch punch by Bruce Lee.
Essentially, the long bridge punch takes advantage
of a muscle's strongest angle of contraction, which
is the last two to three inches, which corresponds
roughly to an elbow angle of 135 degrees. The distance
from the hand to the target is irrelevant as long
as this angle is present upon contact. The structure
of the punch and body limit the rotational effects of
landing a strike, and instead focus on displacement.
The rates of fire given for WT punches describe
punches delivered from roughly the center of the chest,
a fist's distance from the body, to full extension.
Mike
AustinWT/BostonWT
www.austinwt.com
www.austinwt.com/boston
nemo outis
1. MANY of the southern kung fu styles have the short punch (aka 1-inch
punch, etc.) not just WC.
2. The super-fast punching (often done as chung choie - running punch) is
IMHO greatly overrated as at higher speeds the punches are flicky arm punches
(i.e., they only work against an opponent that has already essentially been
defeated) And, yes, I've fought my share of WCers.
WCers, flame away :-)
Regards,
In article <39d37122....@news.blackfoot.net>, h...@nospam.com (Hal)
wrote:
Michael E. Peter
<2RLA5.13092$P5.3...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>:
>A coupla points from a bak sing choy lee fut dissenter:
>
>1. MANY of the southern kung fu styles have the short punch (aka
>1-inch punch, etc.) not just WC.
>
>2. The super-fast punching (often done as chung choie - running
>punch) is IMHO greatly overrated as at higher speeds the punches are
>flicky arm punches (i.e., they only work against an opponent that has
>already essentially been defeated) And, yes, I've fought my share of
>WCers.
>
Every punch, even at the highest speeds, should deliver
near the same force as a single "inch punch". If it's
not, the puncher is doing it incorrectly, i.e. if it's a
"flicky arm punch", then it's wrong. Additionally, the
same responsiveness to permuting the punch to another
shape according to stimulus should also still be there,
even at the highest speeds. Again, if it's not, it's
wrong.
But then, there's more bad wing chun out there than good.
Mike
AustinWT/BostonWT
nemo outis
otherwise) more than a few times a second and even this requires that the
execution of each blow shift weight, twist the hips, or otherwise "prime" the
next blow. And without body involvement one winds up with flicky arm punches.
For example, even most very rapid boxing combinations involve a buildup to a
culmination punch (or possibly two), rather than an long sequence of powerful
punches (which are nearly impossible to attain). I do not believe it is
possible to deliver significant power with each blow beyond perhaps two or
three per second (and only for a limited number of blows, not continuously)
and even that requires superb skill. Anything else sacrifices too much power
for impressive (but largely ineffective) speed.
Regards,
In article <8FBD88414pe...@24.28.95.158>, pet...@NOSPAMcris.com
Dirk Bruere
"nemo outis" <nemo_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7IMA5.13637$P5.3...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
> It is virtually impossible to involve the body (either torquing,
"falling," or
> otherwise) more than a few times a second and even this requires that the
> execution of each blow shift weight, twist the hips, or otherwise "prime"
the
> next blow. And without body involvement one winds up with flicky arm
punches.
> For example, even most very rapid boxing combinations involve a buildup to
a
> culmination punch (or possibly two), rather than an long sequence of
powerful
> punches (which are nearly impossible to attain). I do not believe it is
> possible to deliver significant power with each blow beyond perhaps two or
> three per second (and only for a limited number of blows, not
continuously)
> and even that requires superb skill. Anything else sacrifices too much
power
> for impressive (but largely ineffective) speed.
Ineffective unless delivered to weak points.
Dirk
Michael E. Peter
>It is virtually impossible to involve the body (either torquing,
>"falling," or otherwise) more than a few times a second and even this
>requires that the execution of each blow shift weight, twist the hips,
>or otherwise "prime" the next blow. And without body involvement one
>winds up with flicky arm punches. For example, even most very rapid
>boxing combinations involve a buildup to a culmination punch (or
>possibly two), rather than an long sequence of powerful punches (which
>are nearly impossible to attain). I do not believe it is possible to
>deliver significant power with each blow beyond perhaps two or three per
>second (and only for a limited number of blows, not continuously) and
>even that requires superb skill. Anything else sacrifices too much
>power for impressive (but largely ineffective) speed.
>
>Regards,
>
>
As long as the structure of the punch remains
aligned with structure of the body, you can apply
the body as foundation in every punch. In WT,
we don't derive power from twisting the hips,
etc. Hip torque is *one* means of generating
power. It's not the only means. Mike Sigman
can generate *tremendous* force without a
hip twist or visible weight shift. In the WT
case, we punch from the strongest range of motion,
and use the major working muscles of the upper
body (rather than the postural) to "lever" the
arm as it encounter force, backed by the framework
of the body to prevent the rotational effects that
have to be dealt with when twisting your hips, etc.
The mechanics of a boxing punch are significantly
different enough from the structure and application
of wing chun punches that comparing the two is not
really applicable.
As far as what is believable or not, it sounds like
_in your experience_, you have not encountered what
being described. Understanding the mechanics is key.
With that, "significant power" falls in the range of
punches individually sufficient to take 180 lb man
off his feet, coming at a rate of 6-8 second. I
understand that not everyone would consider that
significant.
Mike
AustinWT/BostonWT
Carmitsu
been hit harder than a guy with good internal skills. The first person was a
tai ji guy. Palm on my chest. Bam. Guy from Meihuazhuang, Palm on my chest.
Bam. Both times I thought my bones had broken in my upper body. I've been hit
hard by great wing chun and good tae kwon do guys and gals. Forget 3 inch or
1 inch. You must max out your potential for speed from the inside.
David L. Burkhead
and started avoiding situations which made "real fights" likely) was at a
togakure-ryu ninjutsu seminar (this was before the term "Bujinkan" came much
into vogue in the US for the art. Schools were called "Bujinkan dojo.").
One of the "junior" black belts (accompanying the person who was holding the
seminar) was helping me and my partner with a particular technique. He used
me as uke. I made my attack. He did the little sidestep number that we
were learning and lightly (or so it seemed) laid his fist against my chest.
About an hour later (okay, that's an exaggeration, but that's how it felt at
the time) I could breathe again. There was little overt movement at all,
which was the point of this particular exercise.
IIRC, that black belt's name was Kevin Schneider and the individual running
that particular seminar was Dave Koss.
--
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Advanced Surface Microscopy, Inc. "While we live, let us LIVE!"
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Space -- Japanese Animation -- History -- Science Fiction
disclaimer: none of the opinions in this message are necessarily
those of ASM, Inc.
"Carmitsu" <carm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000928162906...@ng-ct1.aol.com...
Frank Benn
> 2. The super-fast punching (often done as chung choie - running punch) is
> IMHO greatly overrated as at higher speeds the punches are flicky arm punches
> (i.e., they only work against an opponent that has already essentially been
> defeated) And, yes, I've fought my share of WCers.
I would agree. Rapid chain punching is nothing more than flicky arm punching,
with limited and predictable range.
They only halfway work against people who fight the same way, but don't do it as
well.
This is a recurring pattern that I've seen over the years. Practitioners within a
given system will do well against others in that system who are not as good at it,
but outside of that little circle the method doesn't work.
Gog - Channeling the forces of darkness
h...@nospam.com (Hal) wrote:
> I took Wing Chun for a couple of years about 10 years ago. This
> thread about punch speed reminded me of my Sifu teaching us the
> (at the time) 3 inch punch developed by Wing Chun masters where they
> demonstrated you could achieve the same power from a vertical punch
> that started only 3 inches from your target as a traditional hard
> style straight punch starting at "chamber" (the hand up against the
> side of your body). Since then I heard stories that Bruce Lee had
The one inch punch vs the hip punch is a spurious argument imo. You
can fire a punch from the armpit that outclassess both in speed and
power. An approximation of both. My favorite is to charge a punch
into the target.
I think the one inch punch in wing chun is more of a mistake discovered
while training the wall bag. Wall bags are a bitch because you have to
kind of slam into them. You cant set yourself and start punching. You
can but it sucks.
The springboards are a joke to me because of parasitic shear. But
thats a different story now isnt i?
> refined that to a 1 inch punch and demonstrated the same result. Is
> this true? And does Wing Chun still train with the close-in vertical
> punches, and is this what is being used to demonstrate these somewhat
> incredible claims of punches per second speeds?
>
> Hal
Rapid punches in the air in front of a group of students.... Some wing
chun students are taught to tense up the arm at the end of the air
punch. Which stretches the white fibers. Whip outs are a better idea
imo. Less stress on the joints.
Part man, Part machine, Part subterrenian beast:
http://ordos.terrashare.com/self.html
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Before you buy.
Michael E. Peter
<39D3C84A...@NOSPAMINTEGRATEDARTShotmail.com>:
>nemo outis wrote:
>
>> 2. The super-fast punching (often done as chung choie - running
>> punch) is IMHO greatly overrated as at higher speeds the punches are
>> flicky arm punches (i.e., they only work against an opponent that has
>> already essentially been defeated) And, yes, I've fought my share of
>> WCers.
>
>I would agree. Rapid chain punching is nothing more than flicky arm
>punching, with limited and predictable range.
I disagree. What you are describing sounds like
dead punches. Anything that doesn't adjust as the
situation changes has a limited and predictable
range.
>
>They only halfway work against people who fight the same way, but don't
>do it as well.
Chain punches aren't a technique. Nor are they
to be applied blindly. Unfortunately, that's
how many people apply them.
>
>This is a recurring pattern that I've seen over the years.
>Practitioners within a given system will do well against others in that
>system who are not as good at it, but outside of that little circle the
>method doesn't work.
I heartily agree with the above. This doesn't
describe the way we train, however.
Mike
AustinWT/BostonWT
dmitri
h...@nospam.com (Hal) wrote:
> I took Wing Chun for a couple of years about 10 years ago. This
> thread about punch speed reminded me of my Sifu teaching us the
> (at the time) 3 inch punch developed by Wing Chun masters where they
> demonstrated you could achieve the same power from a vertical punch
> that started only 3 inches from your target as a traditional hard
> style straight punch starting at "chamber" (the hand up against the
> side of your body). Since then I heard stories that Bruce Lee had
> this true? And does Wing Chun still train with the close-in vertical
> punches, and is this what is being used to demonstrate these somewhat
> incredible claims of punches per second speeds?
>
> Hal
>
3, 1 inches -- doesn't matter. You don't have to have any distance (at
a certain level). Even at my low level I can hit relatively hard with
palm touching the target (i.e. WITHOUT moving it back -- I asked a guy
to watch from a side if there was any movement/pulling back -- there
wasn't).
I'd suggest looking into internal arts, like Taijiquan or Xingyi.
But find a GOOD teacher who can demonstrate REAL fajing, yet in
a "gentle" manner so that you don't get hurt. [ Good luck finding
one... :-) ]
There's a VERY clear difference between being hit with and without
internal strength. One good example would be Mike Sigman -- ask him to
demonstrate... He's a nice guy. :-) It feels like a brick wall that
suddenly comes alive and pops one of the bricks out to hit you. It's
THAT hard. And (again) -- the distance between the palm and the target
doesn't matter, because it's not the palm/arm that hits.
Just my $.02, for what it's worth...
--
Correct practice makes perfect.
http://tawnydim.home.mindspring.com/Taiji/
Street Genius
and the guy he did it on made him fly back
teh102
effective as if the target doesn't move but his insides do). I suppose
it depends if you want to control your opponent and injure him, or just
push him into the next room ;)
TT
Michael E. Peter
>If the guy's flying back then the punch is wrong (or at least not as
>effective as if the target doesn't move but his insides do). I suppose
>it depends if you want to control your opponent and injure him, or just
>push him into the next room ;)
>
>TT
>
>Street Genius wrote:
>>
>> yes it is true. i have seen bruce lee on video tape perform the 1 inch
>> punch and the guy he did it on made him fly back
>
Pushing is for demonstration of power development,
dropping the person is for application. You wouldn't
be able to demo the second one much without cutting
down on your supply of training buddies ;)
Mike
AustinWT/BostonWT