Some pressure point "experts" dangerous!
PARKER RYAN
This post is NOT an attack on pressure point teachers!! It is only a
warning to those people out there who might be considering attending a
pressure point (kyusho) seminar. Kyusho (pressure point work) is
potentially quite dangerous. The teacher must understand ALL the
principles involved very well in order to be able to safely do some of the
more serious techniques. This is true of ALL knock-outs. I have seen
several "experts" do VERY dangerous techniques on people. I get the
impression that these individuals don't understand kyusho very well. To me
this is VERY frightening! This stuff can KILL you if the practitioner
doesn't understand what he or she is doing. Let me give you an example of
a person that I feel might be quite dangerous to allow to do a kyusho K.O.
on you. This man (who will remain nameless) learned some of the basics of
kyusho from two Okinawan masters. He only trained a couple of days (at
most) with the first and less than a year total with the second. He claims
that he then did some "research" on his own. I don't know what quality
this research was but most of his good bunkai is VERY much based on one of
the Okinawan's bunkai. So, it seems to me that his good stuff is stolen
(the Okinawan master feels that this man cheated him and took information
under false pretenses). In addition, I feel his bad bunkai is junk. This
in itself is does not bother me too bad (but I do not like dishonesty or
disloyalty). However, this man seems to not even know the basic principles
involved in the kyusho art he claims to teach. He has said that the one of
the meridians "flows" in the wrong direction in several places!! He even
has went so far as to say that this incorrect information is the basis of
many of his techniques. He also has said that the heart meridian goes on
the face! This is complete crud. On the same tape he later "corrects" this
statement with a lot of BS and double-talk. I got the impression when I
watched this tape the he was told of his error by one of the seminar
participants and rushed to cover his tracks. If he would admit he makes
mistakes, fine but he claims to be an "expert" and uses BS to talk his way
out. Now, the scary part is that this man who is not even familiar with
the BASICS of the art is doing very dangerous K.O.s on people all over the
world. If he doesn't even know which meridian he is striking I can't
imagine that he can "fix" any damage he causes!! This person's "healing"
tape is crud. I'm not saying that the techniques he uses to K.O. or revive
a person are bogus. I'm just saying that he doesn't know the art well
enough to do it safely. I get the impression that he has learned about a
dozen or so K.O.s and less than five "revivals". What he seems to teach is
largely just variations on these. He does not know what the effects of his
strikes are in depth (or he wouldn't do them) and is putting people at
serious risk. His "revival" methods are not entirely bogus but they do not
restore the body's systems back to a good condition. At best they wake up
the victim or partially remove a minor "block" on the meridian. This is NOT
enough!! You need to apply acupressure (or acupuncture) to many related
points to reestablish harmony in the system and use herbal remedies to
speed the repair of the damage caused whenever a major kyusho technique is
done. Yes, all major kyusho strikes cause damage. This guy doesn't do
anything like this. But what should he care? He got his money and will
leave town soon. This man might well have killed one of his best students.
This fellow used his student as lab rats when testing his K.O.s, many of
which affect the heart. Not too oddly on of his frequent beat-on-boys died
of a "heart-attack" while QUITE young!! This guy is dangerous. Once again
I'm not cutting down pressure point teachers in general. In fact one of
the instructors I know is in the man I discussed's group. I consider this
instructor a friend, and I think he knows his stuff and is quite safe.
This shows that you need to judge each instructor apart from the rest.
So what do I feel a teacher should know to do and teach serious kyusho
safely? Well, to start with they should be able to pass the below test. If
they can't then they don't understand the original kyusho theories used by
the Okinawan's very well. If they don't understand Okinawan kyusho theory
I don't feel they can teach or do the kyusho safely!!
I don't apologize for the fact that I am using the terms that the
Okinawans use. Kyusho is an Okinawan art and if we wish to understand it
we had better be willing to learn the Okinawan terms and theories.
A Short Kyusho Test.
1) What effect does stimulating a "chi" (to) keiraku have on a "sui" (mizu)
keiraku?
2) What is the relationship of the in/yo to the gogyo?
3) What kei is fukuto on?
4) Name 3 points that will make a K.O. to Dokusen easier. Name 3 points
that will make a K.O. to Dokusen harder.
5) Name at least one herb that is used on Okinawa to treat damage to
daichokei. Give a source where this remedy can be checked.
6) How is shinkei used to affect haikei in many tuite techniques?
7) Name a point that can be used to in "revival" to bring the Ki down in
the body in order to aid in the treatment of any diarrhoea or constipation
caused by a strike to daichokei-ju. This point is also useful to treat
head-ache and other pain but should not be used in pregnancy.
8) When is tankei-niju most useful in "revival"?
9) Why is Te no Omomi (or omoi) important to many kyusho strikes?
10) can striking uchi shakutaku firmly cause general energy loss and
nausea in most people?
If any one is interested I'll post the answers in about a week. In the
mean time does anyone want to take a stab. This test is meant to be
fiendly and I will be very respectful to anyone who takes it!!
If you or your teacher can't answer these questions it doesn't mean that
you shouldn't learn or teach kyusho. BUT you should not claim to be an
"expert" or play with K.O.s or other dangerous techniques. Many
instructors who haven't learned this material can teach basic kyusho very
well. They are probably safe as long as they don't knock anyone out or
teach dangerous point combos to any but serious, proven students (that can
be trusted not to try them out even lightly).
Best Wishes
Ryan Parker
Philip John Stroffolino
>[...]
>He also has said that the heart meridian goes on the face!
>This is complete crud.
Prove it :) :)
Seriously, how were these meridian lines discovered in the first place,
and the (very complex to my eyes) theories of chi refined?
Ray Terry
> I don't apologize for the fact that I am using the terms that the
> Okinawans use. Kyusho is an Okinawan art and if we wish to understand it
> we had better be willing to learn the Okinawan terms and theories.
If by Kyusho you refer to pressure point/vital point usage... Not. {IMHO]
What about the points used in Eagle Claw Kung Fu? Or the points used in the
Filipino's Eskrima/Kali, Kuntau, or Dumog? Or JuJutsu? Or Aikido? Or.?. Do eyou think they were unknown prior to their teaching in the few original
Okinawan arts? Even Funakoshi states otherwise. Perhaps it was discovered
the the Okinawans; if so please educate me...
Pressure points/Vital points _arguably_ did not necessarily originate with
the Okinawan arts. That is not to say that your knowledge of pressure points
is greater than mine. I suspect that it is.
PARKER RYAN
: PARKER RYAN (par...@moorhead.msus.edu) wrote:
: > I don't apologize for the fact that I am using the terms that the
: > Okinawans use. Kyusho is an Okinawan art and if we wish to understand it
: > we had better be willing to learn the Okinawan terms and theories.
: If by Kyusho you refer to pressure point/vital point usage... Not. {IMHO]
: What about the points used in (the names of almost every MA deleted)
: Pressure points/Vital points _arguably_ did not necessarily originate with
: the Okinawan arts.
I never indicated that I think that pressure point fighting is only
Okinawan. The Okinawans took much of their knowledge from Chinese sources.
The first time I sparred no rules, ful- contact was with a Kali man. I
learned first hand that they also use the same points!! What I said was
KYUSHO which is a term pretty much only used on Okinawa (the Japanese use
this term also but not as much as others). Many MAist are claiming to
teach Okinawan kyusho without even knowing the basics. This is what I was
refering to. If I was a chinese stylist I would use Chinese terms like
Sanjow Jing instead of the Okinawan/Japanese term Sanchokei. I did not
mean to imply that the Okinawan were the "True Experts" in this area. I do
want to expose those who claim to be "EXPERTS" in Kyusho (the Okinawan
art) for what they are. Usually anyone who claims to be an expert isn't
one.
: Ray
: rte...@cup.hp.com
Best wishes
Ryan Parker
John H. LeBourgeois
Ryan has some very good advice here... The wise would heed it..
John Anthony
Thanks for your reply to my question in another thread concerning the glut of
"chuckleheads" teaching everyone to knock each other out. I know whom you're
referring to, and I couldn't agree more. It's clearly a case of a little
knowledge being a dangerou
s thing. If one of this legion of unqualified "instructors" doesn't seriously
hurt someone, consider the even less qualified students who attend the
seminars. They're going home and trying the stuff out on their training
partners or perhaps younger broth
ers or sisters. What I find most laughable is that the majority of
practitioners attending these seminars (as well as probably many of the
instructors) don't have the proficiency in the non-pressure point aspects of
karate to utilize pressure points under
real combat conditions anyway. The other guy will be bashing their faces in
while they're still trying to hit that little spot on the arm. Too many people
want instant expertise without putting in the years and work neccessary to
acquire it. Of course
with Black Belt magazine touting Dillman and his ilk as unqualified "experts,"
people who've already spent their money learning to draw with magic markers on
peoples' arms aren't likely to agree with you. Talk to you later.
--JA
Andrew P. Somlyo
Alright, this is a public slam which needs to be addressed. You're
*completely* correct in your analysis of points being ancillary to good
fighting. Charming. One would point out that most people who've passed the
maturity level of a heavy-breathing fourteen year old in the martial arts
have probably realized that no matter what you do, you have to train hard
and train smart, as well as have a good set of basics. Points are neat
tricks, and quite useful, but nothing substitutes for good structure and
good technique, the results of *much* training. For that matter, making
points work requires a good bit of experience.
As to intellectual and practical knowledge of points, (not of Japanese),
I'ld say there are a number of people with in DKI and without who seem to
have a pretty good grip on such things. There are differences of opinion,
but those are a historical tradition (i.e. Smith-Chinese Boxers: Masters and
Methods, differences of opinion on time of day affecting point strikes),
and I *really* doubt it's gonna be discussions of oriental medicine which
will definitive solve them (though they will identify the question). There
exists a pretty rich exchange of knowledge both in terms of scholarship and
practical experimentation between various members of the RyuKyu community,
other martial artists, and acupuncturists, as well as a commitment to
answering the 'does it work' question, as opposed to, 'is it what I was told
should work'.
My quibble with you is that you essentially are stating that throughout
DKI, this delusion of the sole supremacy of points is the norm, and in my
experience as a student in that organization for four years or so, that is
not the case. The cases you describe exist, no doubt, but you are also
maligning some pretty damn talented martial artists and excellent teachers
when you make such categorical generalizations. Rick Clark will no doubt
say his own piece on this matter. I trained under the auspices of Rick
Moneymaker's organization, through Joe Aldridge, and I would suggest you
haven't dealt with any of those folks if you choose to make such
statements.There is *much* more than lip service paid to footwork and
centerline paid in their teaching, as well as a serious stress on
advantageous position, and transition. There are those who, in my
inexperienced, humble, opinion, do those things better, but I tend to think
one needs to sail southwest to do so.
Andrew
Walter W. Sigman
: My quibble with you is that you essentially are stating that throughout
: DKI, this delusion of the sole supremacy of points is the norm, and in my
[[[snipsky]]]
About 2 years ago, one of the great fighters of China, Wan Lai Sun,
died. His teacher was Tu Shin Wu, who off-handedly put Cheng Man Jing in
the hospital once.
Wan Lai Sun beat up a few of the points experts (and believe me, China
has better points experts than other places) in his time, and he is
remembered for saying, "If you have trained well and can hit hard enough,
you do not need to know how to hit specific points."
Mike Sigman
John Anthony
>My quibble with you is that you essentially are stating that throughout
>DKI, this delusion of the sole supremacy of points is the norm, and in my
>experience as a student in that organization for four years or so, that is
>not the case. The cases you describe exist, no doubt, but you are also
>maligning some pretty damn talented martial artists and excellent teachers
>when you make such categorical generalizations. Rick Clark will no doubt
>say his own piece on this matter. I trained under the auspices of Rick
>Moneymaker's organization, through Joe Aldridge, and I would suggest you
>haven't dealt with any of those folks if you choose to make such
>statements.There is *much* more than lip service paid to footwork and
centerline, and positioning? Only as it tangentially relates to pressure
points. Does Dillman require seminar attendees to demonstrate proficiency in
such areas before he teaches
them pressure points? Not at the seminar I was at! (It wasn't Dillman
himself, but one of his 5th degree masters who started at about the same time I
did. Unfortunately, I dropped out of DKI after about two years when I found a
teacher who knew what he
was doing. Dillman at the time was teaching a mishmash of Isshin-ryu and
Goju-ryu and had no inkling about toide or kyoshu-jitsu. His big trick back
then was breaking blocks of ice with his elbow. Had I continued with him, I'd
be a 5th degree by now an
d of course I'd be teaching pressure point seminars.) My point is that Dillman
and his franchisees are attracting flocks of students to these seminars for
PRESSURE POINTS only. If he were teaching only a few very senior students whom
he could trust not t
o abuse the knowledge, it wouldn't be so bad. However, there are many in the
Okinawan martial arts community who feel that Dillman is abusing the knowledge
not to mention the trust of the person from whom he gained most of what
knowledge he has (Taika Oya
ta). I know Dillman also claims to have studied with Hohan Soken but that's
nnot strictly true. My teacher, who was still in Okinawa at the time studying
with Soken, helped Dillman arrange to bring Soken to the US. However, when he
got here, they put hi
m up in an 8th floor hotel room, and he became ill from the height and general
homesickness and returned to Okinawa that same week. So it would be more
correct to say that Dillman "met" Soken. Perhaps there are people in DKI who
do know a lot about press
ure points, but I don't believe they learned it from George. Also, it cracks
me up when I read a seminar flyer from one of these guys and he states
something to the effect that "I've dedicated my life to teaching pressure point
techniques" considering tha
t up until a few sh(I don't believe Dillman met Oyata sensei until 1983 and
studied with him for only a few months) none of them knew anything about
pressure points. It's my feeling that true martial artists should respect
their teachers and respect their
art. Teaching pressure point techniques to anyone who walks through the door
does not constitute respect. There should be limits to what one will do for
money.
--JA
Andrew P. Somlyo
In a previous article, john...@delphi.com (John Anthony) says:
<earlier comments deleted>
> Does Dillman require seminar attendees to demonstrate proficiency in
>such areas (footwork, positioning, ect.-Andrew's note) before he teaches
>them pressure points? Not at the seminar I was at!
Should he? Should anyone? If you don't have good basics, the points are
pretty much useless; if you can't get there, you can't use them. Yeah, it's
taking money from people in exchange for knowledge. The serious students
will be able to integrate the stuff they get; the 'master-in-five-easy-
lessons' people will be left with what they began with.
>My point is that Dillman
>and his franchisees are attracting flocks of students to these seminars for
>PRESSURE POINTS only.
Yup. It pays the bills. I may not necessarily approve of that, but as long
as such knowledge becomes public (as is pretty much inevitable), people
will be willing to pay to get it. What they make of the knowledge depends
on their own abilities and insight.
Please don't mistake me for a populist by this statement; rather realize
that I am a cynic.
> If he were teaching only a few very senior students whom
>he could trust not t
>o abuse the knowledge, it wouldn't be so bad. However, there are many in the
>Okinawan martial arts community who feel that Dillman is abusing the knowledge
>not to mention the trust of the person from whom he gained most of what
>knowledge he has (Taika Oyata).
Hmm. There are a lot of ways to read that statement. How much Dillman got
from Oyata, and what he did with it is another matter. I wasn't there; I've
heard a number of versions (from within DKI, Oyata's people, and
elsewhere).
I'll point out that you're saying that Dillman doesn't know much, and that
he got what little he does know from Oyata. Oyata is fairly notorious for
*not* teaching the points or the theory behind them. Dillman shows a good
bit more than Oyata does. Did Dillman learn all this from Oyata? If so,
then why did Oyata put said trust in him? If this is the case, then, yes,
this is a breach of trust.
Did Dillman and members of DKI take what they learned from Oyata and piece
the rest of it together, doing a *whole* lot of research (the version I've
heard, in part)? If this is the case, then no breach of trust is involved.
Rick Clark and one of Oyata's students hashed this type of thread out a
while back; it's somewhere in the tuite listserver's archives if you want
to see what they had to say.
>Perhaps there are people in DKI who do know a lot about press
>ure points, but I don't believe they learned it from George.
They probably learned some of it from Dillman. I'ld say most of it comes
from some very serious research, dealing with people from other styles,
acupuncturists , and texts. Some of it came from the Bubishi (which Joe
Aldridge commissioned a translation of, a few years back). Yeah, the
knowledge in that organization is hard-earned and the result of pretty
intense study and careful experimentation. Do you think this means that the
knowledge in question is any less deep?
<comments on Dillman and Hohen Soken deleted>
>It's my feeling that true martial artists should respect
>their teachers and respect their
> art.
I don't think that has a damn thing to do with being a 'true martial
artist'. It does have a *great deal* to do with being an honorable human
being, but that's another question altogether.
>Teaching pressure point techniques to anyone who walks through the door
>does not constitute respect.
Why should this knowlege be exclusive-i.e what about it makes it
disrespectful to teach it to anyone?
>There should be limits to what one will do for
>money.
I agree. Unfortunately those will always be self-imposed.
>--JA
Andrew
AL WILSON
Sigman) wrote:
>
> Wan Lai Sun beat up a few of the points experts (and believe me, China
> has better points experts than other places) in his time, and he is
> remembered for saying, "If you have trained well and can hit hard enough,
> you do not need to know how to hit specific points."
Then what is special about the marital arts? What you are saying is that
there is no "art" at all, just get physically fit enough to pummel someone
into submission.
Yes, I am training in the pressure points (as well as small-circle and
mondern arnis). No, I am not going half cocked and trying it on brothers
and sisters or training partners like john...@delphi.com suggests. I am
using it to extend my knowledge of anatomy. Which is what is should be
used for. The "pressue point theory" is not just about knocking people
out. There is a ton of Ju-jistu imobilization techniques. Now I see it
all over now, in great MAs such as Wally Jay and Remy Presas-it just isn't
called by pressure point theory.
I do agree that is seems pretty silly to be in the middle of a fight trying
to hit pressure points on the arm, wrist, etc. I doubt I could "catch" the
punch to do this as discribed. But if you look at the techniques, most
come from what I call prefight situations, where someone has grabbed you or
pushing you. What better way to fight than to immobilize your opponent
with Ju-jitsu, disorienting with a strick to vital nerves or completely
knock him out, ending the fight before it really got started.
Just like john...@delphi.com, I am not crazy about the method that this
information is being taught, and some of the people teaching it. But like
I wrote earlier, some MAs are teaching the techniques without labeling it,
like Remy Presas and Wally Jay. It is just that they are not as flashy and
self promoting, and don't have a knock-out approach.
DKI and "pressume point theory" is like anything else in life. A complete
obsession with it is dangerous and unhealthy. But if one takes small
lessons from it, and adapts it to ones's own strategy, I believe one
becomes a better marital artist.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
AL WILSON
INTERNET: DRUNIVAC.DREW.EDU
"The Internet is like a town that leaves its streets unmarked on the
principle that people who don't already know don't belong"-James Glieck
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Hartigan
>
> Wan Lai Sun beat up a few of the points experts (and believe me, China
> has better points experts than other places) in his time, and he is
> remembered for saying, "If you have trained well and can hit hard enough,
> you do not need to know how to hit specific points."
> Mike Sigman
This, interestingly, is also the philosophy of the senior teacher at my
karate dojo, who has around 25 years of Uechi-ryu training behind him.
Although he sometimes discusses vital areas/pressure points,
his personal fighting strategy is to smash anything he can get at. If
he can't get at your body or head, he will smash your arms or legs. He
doesn't care if you try to block his attacks; that just lets him take
out the defending limb. His conditioning and power are a bit awe-inspiring.
I'm not saying he's invincible, but at that level, pressure points are a
nicety for which I would say he has no need.
-- Sean H.
Julian M. Frost
> DKI and "pressume point theory" is like anything else in life.
Or so you assume... or is that "pressume"? :-)
Julian
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John Anthony
>>such areas (footwork, positioning, ect.-Andrew's note) before he teaches
>>them pressure points? Not at the seminar I was at!
>
>Should he? Should anyone? If you don't have good basics, the points are
>pretty much useless; if you can't get there, you can't use them. Yeah, it's
>taking money from people in exchange for knowledge. The serious students
>will be able to integrate the stuff they get; the 'master-in-five-easy-
>lessons' people will be left with what they began with.
arguement was that the people who conduct these seminars don't care whether
you've mastered these things or not. My point is that MA masters used to teach
pressure points only to tho
se students who they felt were ready for it. And you needed more than just the
cash to be deemed ready. You seem to be suggesting that Dillman is relying on
incompetence among seminar attendees to act as a safety measure. I doubt that
he cares one way o
r another.
>Please don't mistake me for a populist by this statement; rather realize
>that I am a cynic.
accept it as easily as you do.
>bit more than Oyata does. Did Dillman learn all this from Oyata? If so,
>then why did Oyata put said trust in him? If this is the case, then, yes,
>this is a breach of trust.
for a number of years now, and my own feeling (strictly personal opinion) is
that Oyata wants his money too. He probably thought that Dillman, with his
entrepreneurial flair,
could help him make some money. Dillman is a great businessman, I'll give him
that. Back when I was in his organization, he was appearing on TV shows like
THAT'S INCREDIBLE breaking blocks of ice with his elbow. If he were better
looking, I'm sure he'd
have tried to get into films. I do know that Oyata sensei now considers his
trust of Dillman one of the biggest mistakes of his life.
>Rick Clark and one of Oyata's students hashed this type of thread out a
>while back; it's somewhere in the tuite listserver's archives if you want
>to see what they had to say.
>Aldridge commissioned a translation of, a few years back). Yeah, the
>knowledge in that organization is hard-earned and the result of pretty
>intense study and careful experimentation. Do you think this means that the
>knowledge in question is any less deep?
between knowledge that is still open to question and confirmation and knowledge
that is tried and true.
>I don't think that has a damn thing to do with being a 'true martial
>artist'. It does have a *great deal* to do with being an honorable human
>being, but that's another question altogether.
very much connected to being an honorable human being. The attitude you
express is indicative of much of what is wrong with martial arts in this
country. It's analogous to "Su
nday Christians" who feel they can act any way they want as long as they show
up in church on Sundays. MA study is not meant to be something apart from the
rest of our lives. Although I'm sure that you, and lots of other cynics out
there may disagree.
>Why should this knowlege be exclusive-i.e what about it makes it
>disrespectful to teach it to anyone?
same side of the arguement you're on. No one should be able to tell anyone
else what they can teach. That's fine, in a vacuum. But we're all
interconnected through our teachers
and their teachers, etc. There are college undergraduates who've written
papers about how to construct an atomic bomb. Should they be allowed to sell
that information to third world countries (who have tried to acquire it)? The
comparison is a little e
xtreme, I'll admit, however, persons who have specialized knowledge have a
responsibility to use and to disseminate that knowledge responsibly.
>I agree. Unfortunately those will always be self-imposed.
--JA
Andrew P. Somlyo
In a previous article, john...@delphi.com (John Anthony) says:
>Andrew P. Somlyo <ap...@po.CWRU.Edu> writes:
>I was responding to your contention that DKI stresses these aspects.
My contention that *some* people in DKI stress these aspects.
>You seem to be suggesting that Dillman is relying on
>incompetence among seminar attendees to act as a safety measure. I doubt that
>he cares one way o
>r another.
My point was that disseminating the knowledge will aid the competant
practicioners who are ready for it, and do little for those others. And no,
I don't think Dillman gives a damn.
>>Please don't mistake me for a populist by this statement; rather realize
>>that I am a cynic.
>
>Everybody does it so it's okay, right? Perhaps I'm not yet cynical enough to
>accept it as easily as you do.
Whether or not it's 'okay' is another matter. It's *happening* so we need
to evaluate it (widespread teaching of points), and determine how to
utilize the situation.
>>Aldridge commissioned a translation of, a few years back). Yeah, the
>>knowledge in that organization is hard-earned and the result of pretty
>>intense study and careful experimentation. Do you think this means that the
>>knowledge in question is any less deep?
>
>Yes, I think that it means the knowledge is less deep. It's a difference
>between knowledge that is still open to question and confirmation and knowledge
>that is tried and true.
How recently has that knowledge been tried? Information does decay in the
transmission.
I'll probably piss some people off by saying this, but I think a good bit
of the theory and specifics behind the knowledge in question has been in
long need of challenge and re-examination. I don't think one can apply the
scientific method to much of acupunctural theory, and ergo one must appeal
to some very *new* knowledge as opposed to very old.
IMHO, things in isolation become stagnant, while those in interaction must
revalue themselves in order to continue becoming.
>>I don't think that has a damn thing to do with being a 'true martial
>>artist'. It does have a *great deal* to do with being an honorable human
>>being, but that's another question altogether.
>
>It's not another question altogether. The study of martial arts as "a way" is
>very much connected to being an honorable human being. The attitude you
>express is indicative of much of what is wrong with martial arts in this
>country.
>It's analogous to "Su
>nday Christians" who feel they can act any way they want as long as they show
>up in church on Sundays. MA study is not meant to be something apart from the
>rest of our lives.
I'm pressed to remain polite here.
I've run through a number of possible responses to this *statement*. This
is an old flamewar around here and I dislike entering into it, but suffice
it to say I think a martial artist, in one sense, is an individual who
devotes irself to the practice of fighting. There is NO a priori reason for
inclusion of a set of morals or ethics in this pursuit, merely a tradition
in a small portion of that vast thing known as martial arts.
I think philosophy and mystical diversions are smoke and mirrors and a
distraction from focus on the task at hand, learning to do one thing *very*
well, with all of one's attention.
Lastly, I would suggest that honor (internal consistancy regarding one's
self interest in exercise of one's Will) is something which one must learn
and arrive at on one's own. You could say martial arts is that practice,
but I would argue that for for one attempting to live in such a manner, any
action or non-action one pursues becomes part of that endeavor, and no sole
practice drives it.
I'm being obtuse here, unfortunately.
In one sense we agree on a great deal, I suspect, but I am completely at
variance with you when it comes to the means by which one comes to that
point.
When training I prefer sweat and focus to philosophy.
>>Why should this knowlege be exclusive-i.e what about it makes it
>>disrespectful to teach it to anyone?
>
>xtreme, I'll admit, however, persons who have specialized knowledge have a
>responsibility to use and to disseminate that knowledge responsibly.
One assumes a responsibilty. One does not automatically receive it.
>>I agree. Unfortunately those will always be self-imposed.
>
>I agree. It is unfortunate.
No, the ability to exercise individual will is, in my biased view, never
unfortunate, though I may despise and attempt to prevent another from said
exercise, if I find ir aims to be at variance with my desires.
>--JA
>
Andrew
John Anthony
>My point was that disseminating the knowledge will aid the competant
>practicioners who are ready for it, and do little for those others. And no,
>I don't think Dillman gives a damn.
>to evaluate it (widespread teaching of points), and determine how to
>utilize the situation.
>is an old flamewar around here and I dislike entering into it, but suffice
>it to say I think a martial artist, in one sense, is an individual who
>devotes irself to the practice of fighting. There is NO a priori reason for
>inclusion of a set of morals or ethics in this pursuit, merely a tradition
>in a small portion of that vast thing known as martial arts.
>self interest in exercise of one's Will) is something which one must learn
>and arrive at on one's own. You could say martial arts is that practice,
>but I would argue that for for one attempting to live in such a manner, any
>action or non-action one pursues becomes part of that endeavor, and no sole
>practice drives it.
>unfortunate, though I may despise and attempt to prevent another from said
>exercise, if I find ir aims to be at variance with my desires.
regret being drawn into (or starting) a flamewar. On reflection, I have to
admit that I'm not likely to sway any established opinions on this matter
especially inasmuch as everyone
seems to be either (a) a cynic (b) someone who's in the business of conducting
pressure point seminars, or (c) someone who's been to one of (b)'s seminars. I
also have to admit that the vast majority of DKI students are probably sincere
and diligent. I'd
probably still be a DKI student myself had I not met my present teacher
immediately upon his return from Okinawa. And I take comfort in the arguement
made by you and others that the people who aren't ready for pressure points
won't be able to do much wit
h them anyway. But still...
>In one sense we agree on a great deal, I suspect, but I am completely at
>variance with you when it comes to the means by which one comes to that
>point.
assembly-line approach to teaching pressure points, but who cares? (Certainly
not the guys teaching the seminars.) And, in the overall scheme of things,
what does it matter?
--JA