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Arms of junior royals
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Graham
Dec 9, 2012, 1:12:44 PM12/9/12
to
I realise that this has probably been done before.
Usual For what it's worth applies re wikipedia
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm
gives the marks of cadency which have been specifically assigned to
members of the Royal Family other than the Sovereign. Here is a list
of them (and any spouses) in succession order. See also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sodacan/British_Royal_Armorial
NB that I have no connection with this user.
1. Charles, Prince of Wales (b. 1948)
--- --- --- (granted 1958):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Charles,_Prince_of_Wales.svg
[Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall (granted 17th July 2005)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Camilla,_Duchess_of_Cornwall.svg]
2. William, duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
--- scallop --- (granted 6 Aug 2000)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_William,_Duke_of_Cambridge.svg
(cf. the version at http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/William.htm Why
does Prince William have a helm while e.g. Prince Andrew does not?)
[Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Catherine,_Duchess_of_Cambridge.svg]
3. Henry (b. 1984)
scallop --- scallop --- scallop (granted 10 Aug 2002)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Henry_of_Wales.svg
4. Andrew, duke of York 1986 (b. 1960)
--- anchor --- (granted 1963)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Andrew,_Duke_of_York.svg
5. Beatrice (b. 1988)
bee pr. --- bee pr. --- bee pr. (granted 18 Jul 2006)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Beatrice_of_York.svg
6. Eugenie (b. 1990)
thistle pr. --- thistle pr. --- thistle pr. (granted Jul 2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Eugenie_of_York.svg
7. Edward, Earl of Wessex 1999 (b. 1964)
--- rose --- (i.e., a Tudor Rose) (granted 18 Jun 1983)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Edward,_Earl_of_Wessex.svg
[Sophie, Countess of Wessex (Were the arms granted to her or to her
father?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sophie,_Countess_of_Wessex.svg]
8. James, Viscount Severn (b. 2007)
It remains to be seen if he will be granted arms on attaining 18 in
2025
9. Louise (b. 2003)
It remains to be seen if she will be granted arms on attaining 18 in
2021
10. Anne, Princess Royal, formerly Mrs Mark Philips (b. 1950)
cross heart cross (granted 1962)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Anne,_the_Princess_Royal.svg
Is it normal for a married Princess to retain the lozenge format?
Does Vice-Admiral Sir Timothy Laurence bear arms?
11. Peter Phillips (b. 1977)
Differenced version of the arms granted to his grandfather in 1973
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arms_of_Peter_Phillips.svg
How would the arms of his daughters Savannah (12) and Isla (13) be
shown? Their father's arms (complete with label) on a lozenge?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadency
‘Daughters have no special brisures, and use their father's arms on a
lozenge. This is because English heraldry has no requirement that
women's arms be unique.’
[Autumn Phillips - does she bear arms?]
14. Zara Tindall (b. 1981)
Differenced version of the arms granted to her grandfather in 1973
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Zara_Phillips_(Variant).svg
Did her arms change in any way on her marriage to Mike Tindall? Does
he bear arms?
15. Viscount Linley
Differenced version of the arms granted to his father
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viscount_Linley.svg
Why do his personal arms have quarterings of his mother’s, when e.g.
Peter Phillips’ do not?
[Viscountess Linley – would she impale her husband’s arms with those
of her father the Earl of Harrington?
http://www.rubylane.com/item/559027-0001425/Stanhope-Earl-Harrington-Family-Coat]
16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?
17. Hon Margarita Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be her arms? Her father’s in a lozenge?
18. Lady Sarah Chatto
Would she impale her husband’s arms (if any) with those of her father
the Earl of Snowdon?
How would the arms of her sons Samuel and Arthur (19 -20) be shown?
Presumably this would depend on whether their father is armigerous?
[Daniel Chatto - does he bear arms?]
Usual For what it's worth applies re wikipedia
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm
gives the marks of cadency which have been specifically assigned to
members of the Royal Family other than the Sovereign. Here is a list
of them (and any spouses) in succession order. See also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sodacan/British_Royal_Armorial
NB that I have no connection with this user.
1. Charles, Prince of Wales (b. 1948)
--- --- --- (granted 1958):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Charles,_Prince_of_Wales.svg
[Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall (granted 17th July 2005)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Camilla,_Duchess_of_Cornwall.svg]
2. William, duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
--- scallop --- (granted 6 Aug 2000)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_William,_Duke_of_Cambridge.svg
(cf. the version at http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/William.htm Why
does Prince William have a helm while e.g. Prince Andrew does not?)
[Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Catherine,_Duchess_of_Cambridge.svg]
3. Henry (b. 1984)
scallop --- scallop --- scallop (granted 10 Aug 2002)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Henry_of_Wales.svg
4. Andrew, duke of York 1986 (b. 1960)
--- anchor --- (granted 1963)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Andrew,_Duke_of_York.svg
5. Beatrice (b. 1988)
bee pr. --- bee pr. --- bee pr. (granted 18 Jul 2006)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Beatrice_of_York.svg
6. Eugenie (b. 1990)
thistle pr. --- thistle pr. --- thistle pr. (granted Jul 2008)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Eugenie_of_York.svg
7. Edward, Earl of Wessex 1999 (b. 1964)
--- rose --- (i.e., a Tudor Rose) (granted 18 Jun 1983)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Edward,_Earl_of_Wessex.svg
[Sophie, Countess of Wessex (Were the arms granted to her or to her
father?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Sophie,_Countess_of_Wessex.svg]
8. James, Viscount Severn (b. 2007)
It remains to be seen if he will be granted arms on attaining 18 in
2025
9. Louise (b. 2003)
It remains to be seen if she will be granted arms on attaining 18 in
2021
10. Anne, Princess Royal, formerly Mrs Mark Philips (b. 1950)
cross heart cross (granted 1962)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Anne,_the_Princess_Royal.svg
Is it normal for a married Princess to retain the lozenge format?
Does Vice-Admiral Sir Timothy Laurence bear arms?
11. Peter Phillips (b. 1977)
Differenced version of the arms granted to his grandfather in 1973
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arms_of_Peter_Phillips.svg
How would the arms of his daughters Savannah (12) and Isla (13) be
shown? Their father's arms (complete with label) on a lozenge?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadency
‘Daughters have no special brisures, and use their father's arms on a
lozenge. This is because English heraldry has no requirement that
women's arms be unique.’
[Autumn Phillips - does she bear arms?]
14. Zara Tindall (b. 1981)
Differenced version of the arms granted to her grandfather in 1973
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Zara_Phillips_(Variant).svg
Did her arms change in any way on her marriage to Mike Tindall? Does
he bear arms?
15. Viscount Linley
Differenced version of the arms granted to his father
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viscount_Linley.svg
Why do his personal arms have quarterings of his mother’s, when e.g.
Peter Phillips’ do not?
[Viscountess Linley – would she impale her husband’s arms with those
of her father the Earl of Harrington?
http://www.rubylane.com/item/559027-0001425/Stanhope-Earl-Harrington-Family-Coat]
16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?
17. Hon Margarita Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be her arms? Her father’s in a lozenge?
18. Lady Sarah Chatto
Would she impale her husband’s arms (if any) with those of her father
the Earl of Snowdon?
How would the arms of her sons Samuel and Arthur (19 -20) be shown?
Presumably this would depend on whether their father is armigerous?
[Daniel Chatto - does he bear arms?]
Turenne
Dec 9, 2012, 2:57:24 PM12/9/12
to
I like Beatrice's bees.
I had no idea that the Philip's arms were such rubbish...
As far as whether it normal for a married Princess to retain the lozenge format. Here are the arms of Princess Mary, Countess of Harewood, who preceded Anne as Princess Royal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Mary,_the_Princess_Royal_and_Countess_of_Harewood.svg
As far as I know; Timothy Laurence isn't armigerous
>>>18. Lady Sarah Chatto
Would she impale her husband’s arms (if any) with those of her father
the Earl of Snowdon?
Yes
>>>How would the arms of her sons Samuel and Arthur (19 -20) be shown?
As their father, but with the appropriate mark of cadency. That said; Chatto is a Scottish name, (from the lands of Chatto, Roxburghshire) so they may bear a bordure rather than a label/crescent.
>>>[Viscountess Linley – would she impale her husband’s arms with those
of her father the Earl of Harrington?
http://www.rubylane.com/item/559027-0001425/Stanhope-Earl-Harrington-Family-Coat]
Yes
RL
I had no idea that the Philip's arms were such rubbish...
As far as whether it normal for a married Princess to retain the lozenge format. Here are the arms of Princess Mary, Countess of Harewood, who preceded Anne as Princess Royal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_Mary,_the_Princess_Royal_and_Countess_of_Harewood.svg
As far as I know; Timothy Laurence isn't armigerous
>>>18. Lady Sarah Chatto
Would she impale her husband’s arms (if any) with those of her father
the Earl of Snowdon?
>>>How would the arms of her sons Samuel and Arthur (19 -20) be shown?
>>>[Viscountess Linley – would she impale her husband’s arms with those
of her father the Earl of Harrington?
http://www.rubylane.com/item/559027-0001425/Stanhope-Earl-Harrington-Family-Coat]
RL
Turenne
Dec 9, 2012, 4:11:07 PM12/9/12
to
16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?
Could be. Or a charge on one of the three labels. (See Prince William)
What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
rather than three?
17. Hon Margarita Armstrong-Jones
What are/would be her arms? Her father’s in a lozenge?
RL
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Tim Powys-Lybbe
Dec 10, 2012, 8:59:23 PM12/10/12
to
On 10 Dec at 17:21, Charles <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip for brevity>
> One question I have, but am not sure about, is weather the children of
> a heraldic heiress and a non-armigerous father are entitled to their
> maternal grandfather's arms. I think that one needs arms to "attach"
> these inheritances to or one doesn't bear them at all.
My 3 Gt-grandmother was, in her issue, a heraldic heiress.
Unfortunately she married a non-armigerous chap and both of them died
early but leaving a sole surviving heir in their daughter, my
gt-gt-grandmother. G-G-GM eventually succeeded to her gt-uncle's estate
(he dsp) on a name and arms clause. But she had no arms, nor, in his
turn did her husband. The strategem to resolve this was for her
husband, of Scottish extraction, to obtain a grant of arms in the Lyon
Court. Then they advanced on the College of arms and got a royal
licence to quarter his new arms with those of his wife's maternal
grandfather and they could inherit. The husband, not being of his
wife's blood, had to put a canton on the quarter for his wife's family,
but the RL explicitly said that the children of this marriage did not
have that canton on their arms. (The transcription of the RL by the
herald, with the odd obvious error such as 'Guntrotter' is here
<http://powys.org/lge/royal_licences/trotter.pdf>.)
I queried this with a herald, after I had got hold of the text of the
RL, and he said that the kings of arms were all-powerful and could break
any rules they liked.
The Lyon Office was slightly suprised when I explained the whole story
to them.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
<snip for brevity>
> One question I have, but am not sure about, is weather the children of
> a heraldic heiress and a non-armigerous father are entitled to their
> maternal grandfather's arms. I think that one needs arms to "attach"
> these inheritances to or one doesn't bear them at all.
My 3 Gt-grandmother was, in her issue, a heraldic heiress.
Unfortunately she married a non-armigerous chap and both of them died
early but leaving a sole surviving heir in their daughter, my
gt-gt-grandmother. G-G-GM eventually succeeded to her gt-uncle's estate
(he dsp) on a name and arms clause. But she had no arms, nor, in his
turn did her husband. The strategem to resolve this was for her
husband, of Scottish extraction, to obtain a grant of arms in the Lyon
Court. Then they advanced on the College of arms and got a royal
licence to quarter his new arms with those of his wife's maternal
grandfather and they could inherit. The husband, not being of his
wife's blood, had to put a canton on the quarter for his wife's family,
but the RL explicitly said that the children of this marriage did not
have that canton on their arms. (The transcription of the RL by the
herald, with the odd obvious error such as 'Guntrotter' is here
<http://powys.org/lge/royal_licences/trotter.pdf>.)
I queried this with a herald, after I had got hold of the text of the
RL, and he said that the kings of arms were all-powerful and could break
any rules they liked.
The Lyon Office was slightly suprised when I explained the whole story
to them.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
for a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
Graham
Dec 11, 2012, 4:08:43 PM12/11/12
to
On Dec 10, 6:04 pm, Charles <charlesvonh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
> eventual) of the British Royal Family use the label of three points.
> It makes sense too because all the heir apparent has to do is drop the
> charge. Makes it easy as well to send the artists around with white
> paint or chisels to fix any "incorrect" arms on furniture, paintings,
> etc ;-) I imagine that if the baby on its way is a boy and certainly
> heir eventual (the rules haven't actually been changed yet), he too
> would also be granted a label of three points with something on the
> central point (a golden acorn would be nice), but they will surely
> wait until the eighteenth birthday. The Queen would have to be around
> 105. An immediate grant of arms would be nice to celebrate three
> direct heirs.
Or what if the baby is a girl and they get round to legislating
for her to be heiress apparent?
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm seems to suggest
that Edward VIII bore no arms until he became heir apparent.
Does anyone have access to a Burke's or Debrett's from between
1895 and 1910?
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> On Dec 9, 4:11 pm, Turenne <rick.lich...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> > 16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
> > What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
> > rather than three?
>
> > Could be. Or a charge on one of the three labels. (See Prince William)
>
> Is William a useful precedent? It seems only the direct line (heirs
> On Dec 9, 4:11 pm, Turenne <rick.lich...@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> > 16. Hon Charles Armstrong-Jones
> > What are/would be his arms? His father’s, with a label of five points
> > rather than three?
>
> > Could be. Or a charge on one of the three labels. (See Prince William)
>
> eventual) of the British Royal Family use the label of three points.
> It makes sense too because all the heir apparent has to do is drop the
> charge. Makes it easy as well to send the artists around with white
> paint or chisels to fix any "incorrect" arms on furniture, paintings,
> etc ;-) I imagine that if the baby on its way is a boy and certainly
> heir eventual (the rules haven't actually been changed yet), he too
> would also be granted a label of three points with something on the
> central point (a golden acorn would be nice), but they will surely
> wait until the eighteenth birthday. The Queen would have to be around
> 105. An immediate grant of arms would be nice to celebrate three
> direct heirs.
Or what if the baby is a girl and they get round to legislating
for her to be heiress apparent?
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm seems to suggest
that Edward VIII bore no arms until he became heir apparent.
Does anyone have access to a Burke's or Debrett's from between
1895 and 1910?
Graham
Dec 11, 2012, 5:23:52 PM12/11/12
to
On Dec 9, 6:12 pm, Graham <graham.truesd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I realise that this has probably been done before.
> Usual For what it's worth applies re wikipediahttp://www.heraldica.org/topics/britain/cadency.htm
> I realise that this has probably been done before.
> gives the marks of cadency which have been specifically assigned to
> members of the Royal Family other than the Sovereign. Here is a list
> of them (and any spouses) in succession order. See alsohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sodacan/British_Royal_Armorial
> members of the Royal Family other than the Sovereign. Here is a list
> NB that I have no connection with this user.
>
Snip
>
>
> 2. William, duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
> --- scallop --- (granted 6 Aug 2000)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_Arms_of_William,_Duke_of_Ca...
> 2. William, duke of Cambridge (b. 1982)
> (cf. the version athttp://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/William.htm Why
> does Prince William have a helm while e.g. Prince Andrew does not?)
>
Thanks to all who replied. Does anyone know the answer to the
>
question about William's helm above?
Message has been deleted
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Dec 12, 2012, 7:27:09 AM12/12/12
to
Just the components which the artist/commissioner chose to include or not.
Larry Slight
Dec 12, 2012, 9:25:43 AM12/12/12
to
The only suggestion I have is that being in the direct line of succession
the helm is used. I realize that may not be the reason but Prince Charles'
coat also uses a helm whereas Prince Andrew, Prince Edward and Prince Harry
do not.
Larry
"Graham" <graham.t...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0cc04122-a2f8-4673...@n9g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
the helm is used. I realize that may not be the reason but Prince Charles'
coat also uses a helm whereas Prince Andrew, Prince Edward and Prince Harry
do not.
Larry
"Graham" <graham.t...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0cc04122-a2f8-4673...@n9g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
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