Best 9mm: Sig, HK, Glock? Need advice.
Palmer Hinsdale
Haven't used a handgun since Army days when I carried a .45 and later a
.38 revolver. From early research, had pretty well settled on medium
frame Glock, 9mm. Started shopping and at one store the man who helped
me was emphatic that the Sigs have best accuracy. Naturally I asked why
and about the best he could say was "very well made." He sold all three
brands, BTW. He didn't make a sale; I left the store in confusion and
decided to stir up a hornets nest and get some opinions from users
instead of a store salesman.
Thanks, Palmer.
Jeff Bryant
Palmer Hinsdale wrote:
#
# Haven't used a handgun since Army days when I carried a .45 and later a
# .38 revolver. From early research, had pretty well settled on medium
# frame Glock, 9mm. Started shopping and at one store the man who helped
# me was emphatic that the Sigs have best accuracy. Naturally I asked why
# and about the best he could say was "very well made." He sold all three
# brands, BTW. He didn't make a sale; I left the store in confusion and
# decided to stir up a hornets nest and get some opinions from users
# instead of a store salesman.
#
# Thanks, Palmer.
I've owned a Glock and a SIG. Both are GREAT pistols. The HK gets
excellent comments in rec.guns, too. Since all three are of utmost
quality, reliability and durability, and good accuracy, the main
deciding factor is ergonomics.
Which pistol grip fits your hand best? Which size fits your needs
(thickness, length, height), which safety design is most suitable for
you, which trigger pull do you like?
Personally I like the SIG, but I wouldn't hesitate on the Glock.
Mark Livingston
Of all of the carry guns I've carried, for some reason the HK P-7 M8
is quite compact and is very accurate (for me). I do like the safty
features
on the firearm. Even though some still believe the P7-M8 is a German
staple gun, It has always been you number one choice.
If more than eight rounds is a neccesity, I believe the SIG 228 is a
no miss selection. Also fantastic out of box accuracy. Good luck!
HK
Palmer Hinsdale <hins...@dnai.com> wrote in article
<5gu16i$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# Haven't used a handgun since Army days when I carried a .45 and later
a
# .38 revolver. From early research, had pretty well settled on medium
# frame Glock, 9mm. Started shopping and at one store the man who
helped
# me was emphatic that the Sigs have best accuracy. Naturally I asked
why
# and about the best he could say was "very well made." He sold all
three
# brands, BTW. He didn't make a sale; I left the store in confusion and
# decided to stir up a hornets nest and get some opinions from users
# instead of a store salesman.
#
# Thanks, Palmer.
#
#
#
Cliff in Atlanta
Palmer,
I have a Glock 19, a Sig P228, and a Beretta 92FS. I can tell you that
they are all very accurate. The gun that will shoot most accurately for
you, is the one that you can grip comfortably, and hold steady when you
squeeze the trigger. There are many other factors to consider when
buying a handgun. Don't worry about accuracy, most modern pistols shoot
better than the average person can aim.
Philip Peake
Palmer Hinsdale wrote:
#
# .38 revolver. From early research, had pretty well settled on medium
# frame Glock, 9mm. Started shopping and at one store the man who helped
# me was emphatic that the Sigs have best accuracy. Naturally I asked why
# and about the best he could say was "very well made." He sold all three
# brands, BTW. He didn't make a sale; I left the store in confusion and
# decided to stir up a hornets nest and get some opinions from users
# instead of a store salesman.
#
# Thanks, Palmer.
Hornets nest ??
What you just stired up is more like a lion's den :-)
For what my opinion is worth, I favour the SIG - I find it very accurate
and easy to handle.
However, there is essentially nothing in the workmanship differences
between
SIG and Glock. In fact, I believe that on some models, you can even
interchange
the barrels (this was done, I seem to remember by people wanting to fire
357SIG,
they simply dropped a SIG barrel into a .40 Glock, and experienced no
problems
whatsoever).
Personally, my accuracy is better with a SIG. I find the extra weight of
the metal
slide helps to control the gun better. But with practice, I wouldn't be
surprised
if I could do equally as well with a Glock.
If you intent to carry it, there are more significant differences.
Glock has a system with no safety (in the conventional sense), relying
upon
a trigger "block", which requires you to pull directly back on the
trigger before
the block releases, and pulling the trigger completes the cocking
action.
It is "different". I personally think it no more or less safe than a
cocked and
locked 1911. Some people will tell you it is more safe, some will tell
you the
opposite. Whatever, it takes practice, and getting used to (but that is
really
true of any gun you intend to carry). So long as you keep your finger
away from
the trigger until you intend to fire, there are no problems.
Sig (in general) is a double action first shot, and single action
thereafter.
There is again no safety in the conventional sense. Safety relies upon
the
12 pound initial pull, plus an extra notch cut into the hammer, which
traps the hammer if the sear is accidentally disengaged by a blow (for
instance) before
it can strike the firing pin. The firing pin is also blocked
mechanically.
Pulling the trigger disengagrs the firing pin block, and the safety
notch, so
it is pretty difficult to set off a SIG without pulling the trigger.
There is some debate about double action first shots not being accurate.
For defense purposes, I don't find this to be significant enough to
worry me.
If it did, then the SIG having the safety notch and firing pin block can
be drawn and the hammer cocked during the draw - releasing the hammer
accidentally
will not give you a new crease in your pants, as it might if you tried
the same
trick with a 1911 style gun. Drawing and cocking is no more difficult
than
drawing and flipping the safety off on a more "conventional" gun.
Of course, the SIG is heavier than the Glock, which you may want to
consider
if you intend to carry often.
If you can, I would reccomend renting or borrowing examples of each, and
spend
some time on the range to see which feels best to you.
My personal reccomendation in 9mm ?
A SIG P229. I prefer the extra mass of the solid stainless slide over
the
lighter steel item on the P226/228 - it appears (to me) to give just an
extra
edge in accuracy.
My one peeve about the 9mm P229 ?
It uses a P228 frame. Which means that you can't fit the .40/.357SIG
magazines (and the 9mm won't fit in the .40/.357SIG guns). It would have
been
nice to be able to swap between 9mm/.40/.357SIG. A new 9mm magazine for
the
.40 frame would have made that possible.
James Hedman
The best 9 millimetre pistol is of course the SIG P-210. Superb
ergonomics, fine fit and finish, extreme durability, and excellent
accuracy. Try one and you will likely agree there is no comparison
among current offerings.
The Browning High Power is good but a little fat due to its enormous
magazine and the trigger pull leaves a lot to be desired.
The SIG-Sauers (German weapons) have very high bore axes and when
combined with a poorly contoured grip, as they are in the hacked down
P-239, are really awful to shoot for anyone with normal to large sized
hands. Sauers are well built for an aluminum gun and are acceptably
accurate, although not in the same class as the SIG P-210, but do you
really want a double action pistol? Why not just get a revolver?
Lugers are nice but they point a little high compared to a 210 or High
Power and are just not as reliable or accurate. The CZ-75 borrows
design features from both the High Power and 210 but again, who needs
double action?
HK's, Glocks, etc.. are fat, square, plastic, and have execrable
trigger pulls due to their double action designs which are a supposed
solution to police liability problems and poorly trained military
recruits. Accuracy is not even close to the P-210.
The original design of the 210 was done by the expatriate Swiss
engineer and wounded Foreign Legion veteran Charles Gabriel Petter. As
director of the weapons division of Societe Alsacienne de Constructions
Mechaniques (SACM) at Cholet, Alsace he personally designed the gun that
came to be known as the M1935A to French Ordnance who were in search of
a replacement for their model 1892 revolver which had been found wanting
in terms of firepower during the Great War.
It is interesting to note that one of the two dozen rejected designs
was the Browning High Power. The gun went into production in 1936.
The French model 1935A looks exactly like a modern 210 in profile but
fires a an 87 grain .30 calibre round at 1100 fps. The French patents
of 1934 are based on the detachable firing unit composed of the hammer,
sear, and mainspring in a compact housing, held in place by the slide,
with the housing forming a portion of the frame railing upon which the
slide travels. This design however, is precisely that of the famous
Tokarev, adopted by the Red Army in 1930!
The model 1935A, following basic Browning design, also incorporated
frame locking lugs and a pivoting barrel link.
The French Saint-Ettiene arsenal redesigned the 1935A for cheaper mass
production making the gun with a shorter slide, straighter grip and less
machining. Sort of like the approach Smith and Wesson took with the
915. They also got rid of the locking lugs and went to the easy to
manufacture method of having a shoulder on the barrel lock up to the
slide on the front edge of the ejection port. You can find that cheap
cost cutting measure on current HK's and Glocks. It is no wonder
accuracy suffers.
This cost effective version was called the model 1935S and was a
substitute standard issue in the Wehrmacht like the High Power after the
Germans seized the factories.
After the war, the French again revised the pistol to fire the 9mm
Parabellum round and it went back to locking lugs on the barrel and a
larger grip frame with a curved backstrap. This was known as the model
1950.
Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft (SIG) licensed Charles Petter's
1935A pistol in 1937 and began developing it to fire the 9mm Parabellum
round. SIG made three major design improvements which have brought the
pistol to its present state of perfection. The pivoting barrel link was
replaced with a cam slot riding on a cross pin in High Power fashion,
the safety was moved from the slide to the frame, and last but not least
the slide was redesigned to ride INSIDE the the already long frame.
This gives double the normal slide to frame engagement. CZ utilizes
this feature. The SIG version of Charles Petters pistol was adopted as
the Swiss service pistol in 1948 as the model SP47/8. The Swiis Army
can no longer afford them and have been forced to accept the cheaply
made Sauer but you can still buy one for yourself as the P-210.
A Swiss manufacture of a French pistol developed by a Swiss from a
stolen Russian execution of a basic American design.
--
Regards,
James R. Hedman
Bill Fisher
Personally, I'll keep my Browning Hi-Power 9mm. It may be an antiquated
old single-action auto, but it still holds 13 rounds, is accurate and it
works everytime. Remember, too, it was the gun John Browning designed
after he was no longer held to the constraints for the 1911; in other
words, this is the handgun as he thought it should be.
Bill
Philip Peake <phi...@vogon.rain.com> wrote in article
<5gvap0$f...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# Palmer Hinsdale wrote:
# #
# # Haven't used a handgun since Army days when I carried a .45 and later a
# # .38 revolver. From early research, had pretty well settled on medium
# # frame Glock, 9mm. Started shopping and at one store the man who helped
# # me was emphatic that the Sigs have best accuracy. Naturally I asked why
# # and about the best he could say was "very well made." He sold all three
# # brands, BTW. He didn't make a sale; I left the store in confusion and
# # decided to stir up a hornets nest and get some opinions from users
# # instead of a store salesman.
# #
# # Thanks, Palmer.
Thomas
Palmer Hinsdale wrote:
#
# .38 revolver. From early research, had pretty well settled on medium
# frame Glock, 9mm. Started shopping and at one store the man who helped
# me was emphatic that the Sigs have best accuracy. Naturally I asked why
# and about the best he could say was "very well made." He sold all three
# brands, BTW. He didn't make a sale; I left the store in confusion and
# decided to stir up a hornets nest and get some opinions from users
# instead of a store salesman.
#
Actually, they are all excellent guns, and each has a COMPLETELY
different feel. Personally, I'd pick whichever one fits your hands
best. Accuracy and reliability -wise, they really are all about the
same. (You'll hear a LOT of opinions about that---but they are all very
nice guns.)
For me, the HK just feels STRANGE, for some reason, and I liked the SIG
but the Glock pointed naturally for me. On the other hand, I know
people who are exactly the same way----about the HK in one case, and the
SIG in another.
They are all good guns, comparable to each other. Pick the one that
fits you best.
Thomas
-----------------------------
mach...@du.edu
http://www.du.edu/~machambe
"If you aren't modeling what you are teaching,
then you are teaching something else."
Pip...@hotmail.com
Bill Fisher wrote:
#
# Personally, I'll keep my Browning Hi-Power 9mm. It may be an antiquated
# old single-action auto, but it still holds 13 rounds, is accurate and it
# works everytime.
Glock does all of the above and more, it's almost idiot proof, you can
not destoy a Glock by conventional means. You can drop a glock, throw it
at a wall, run over it with a car, freeze it, drop it in mud or dirt or
sand and it will still shot. It won't rust either thanks to the polymers
and tenifer coated steel. Can a browning do all that?
Sigstroker
#Personally, I'll keep my Browning Hi-Power 9mm. It may be an antiquated
#old single-action auto, but it still holds 13 rounds, is accurate and it
#works everytime. Remember, too, it was the gun John Browning designed
#after he was no longer held to the constraints for the 1911; in other
#words, this is the handgun as he thought it should be.
Yeah, over 60 years ago!
Grady Kelton
#Thomas wrote:
# Actually, they are all excellent guns, and each has a COMPLETELY
# different feel. Personally, I'd pick whichever one fits your hands
# best. Accuracy and reliability -wise, they really are all about the
# same. (You'll hear a LOT of opinions about that---but they are all very
# nice guns.)
#
# For me, the HK just feels STRANGE, for some reason, and I liked the SIG
# but the Glock pointed naturally for me. On the other hand, I know
# people who are exactly the same way----about the HK in one case, and the
# SIG in another.
#
# They are all good guns, comparable to each other. Pick the one that
# fits you best.
Very well said, I choose a SIG, and this is how I picked mine.
I went to a store that had quite a selection, gripped the first gun,
with my hand at my side, picked a target (e.g.,doorknob,reloader,etc.)
across the store. I then closed my eyes and brought the gun up to point
at the selected target. I then opened my eyes. I was supprised to find
that the Glock was pointing way high (if the gun would have been fired
the bullet would have hit the ceiling). The SIG seemed to point more
naturally.
Now years later and about 16,000 rounds, most of which are reloads, the
SIG 226 has
jammed once, this was while shooting lead bullets (first 500). I don't
put much lube on the gun, I
didn't have any oil in the bag, so I went to the car got a drop of oil
off the dipstick.
I finished the day, and never shot lead out of it again (poor accuracy
as well).
Later,I bought a USP, that pointed the same, but in 40 S&W. I liked it
very well to.
I liked the mag release better than the SIG, but liked the sights on the
SIG better.
But the SIG shot better. In all fairness, a gun you've shot that many
rounds out of
you build a trust. I personally like the 9mm better that the 40. But,
that's a
whole new thread, I believe it's what is hit first, and what it is hit
with second.
By the way I shoot IPSC and compete with a 45, and still use a 9 for my
CCW.
GOOD LUCK
Grady Kelton
gke...@mastnet.net
Opinions are like A _ _ H O L E S, everbody has one, and most of them
stink.
Winman
Palmer Hinsdale wrote:
#
# Haven't used a handgun since Army days when I carried a .45 and later a
# .38 revolver. From early research, had pretty well settled on medium
# frame Glock, 9mm. Started shopping and at one store the man who helped
# me was emphatic that the Sigs have best accuracy. Naturally I asked why
# and about the best he could say was "very well made." He sold all three
# brands, BTW. He didn't make a sale; I left the store in confusion and
# decided to stir up a hornets nest and get some opinions from users
# instead of a store salesman.
#
# Thanks, Palmer.
There is nothing wrong with any of them, except I despise the trigger on
the Glocks. Personally, I would favor the Sig over the USP, I got 4
Sigs and a USP .40, so I guess that states my position best. However,
find a range that rents or friends that own themand try them if
possible. They are all quality guns, just buy what you feel the most
comfortable with.
Steave
Dogwodwind
My 2 cents: Sig P226. I ahve a Glock .40 and i love it,but My Sig was the
most accurate pistol out of the box that i have ever owned. I'll get a HK
one of these days and then I may change my prefferences, but for now its
the Sig.
Craig M. Strader
Thomas wrote:
#
# #
# # Haven't used a handgun since Army days when I carried a .45 and later a
# # frame Glock, 9mm. Started shopping and at one store the man who helped
# # me was emphatic that the Sigs have best accuracy. Naturally I asked why
# # and about the best he could say was "very well made." He sold all three
# # brands, BTW. He didn't make a sale; I left the store in confusion and
# # decided to stir up a hornets nest and get some opinions from users
# # instead of a store salesman.
# #
# # Thanks, Palmer.
#
# different feel. Personally, I'd pick whichever one fits your hands
# best. Accuracy and reliability -wise, they really are all about the
# same. (You'll hear a LOT of opinions about that---but they are all very
# nice guns.)
#
# For me, the HK just feels STRANGE, for some reason, and I liked the SIG
# but the Glock pointed naturally for me. On the other hand, I know
# people who are exactly the same way----about the HK in one case, and the
# SIG in another.
#
# They are all good guns, comparable to each other. Pick the one that
# fits you best.
# Thomas
# -----------------------------
# mach...@du.edu
# http://www.du.edu/~machambe
# "If you aren't modeling what you are teaching,
# then you are teaching something else."
Get the HK.
RAY & JUDY
shoots all loads I have fed it very well, has never malfunctioned, very
accurate, easy to clean, and I like the decocking lever as opposed to a
safety.I replaced the grips with Hogue rubber ones, and I had a gunsmith
add some Millet adjustable sights(which I really like!) Good Luck--Ray
Sebastien Kupiec
Why would you want to do that to any beautiful piece of machinery...
The Browning HiPower probably can not take the abuse that a glock would
but why would you want to put your weapon through that.
I will tell you one thing the Browning can do that the glock can not...
The Browning will shoot better and more acurately in more different
hands then will the glock. Guaranteed.
It is what I would call a natural shooter.
Healthy discussion.
Salut
Pip...@hotmail.com wrote:
#
# Bill Fisher wrote:
# #
# # Personally, I'll keep my Browning Hi-Power 9mm. It may be an antiquated
# # old single-action auto, but it still holds 13 rounds, is accurate and it
# # works everytime.
#
# Glock does all of the above and more, it's almost idiot proof, you can
# not destoy a Glock by conventional means. You can drop a glock, throw it
# at a wall, run over it with a car, freeze it, drop it in mud or dirt or
# sand and it will still shot. It won't rust either thanks to the polymers
# and tenifer coated steel. Can a browning do all that?
--
sa...@earthlink.net
NRA Life-member
"keep the rubber side down"
93 CBR1000F
Tim Lau
In article <5gvap0$f...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Philip Peake <phi...@vogon.rain.com> wrote:
#However, there is essentially nothing in the workmanship differences
#between SIG and Glock. In fact, I believe that on some models, you can even
#interchange the barrels (this was done, I seem to remember by people wanting
#to fire 357SIG, they simply dropped a SIG barrel into a .40 Glock, and
#experienced no problems whatsoever).
After reading the extensive posts on this thread, I can't believe no
one responded to this one. YOU CANNOT INTERCHANGE BARRELS BETWEEN SIG, GLOCK,
HK, OR ANY OTHER PISTOL. What the author of the above post was probably
referring to, was a drop-in replacement barrel for a .40 caliber Glock pistol
made by an aftermarket manufacturer, specifically designed for said Glock
in caliber .357SIG.
#Personally, my accuracy is better with a SIG. I find the extra weight of
#the metal slide helps to control the gun better.
Um, pretty much all semi-autos have metal slides.
It's amazing to me the incredible amount of misinformation that propogates
through this newsgroup, though to be fair, there is also a bountiful
amount of good info as well. Just remember to take everything with
a grain of salt until you find a consistent, reliable source of information.
Tim
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Lau <t...@w3systems.com>
Home Page: http://www.w3systems.com/liberty
Public Key: http://www.w3systems.com/pubkey.html
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force.
And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
--George Washington
MShock8073
<#Personally, my accuracy is better with a SIG. I find the extra weight of
<#the metal slide helps to control the gun better.
<Um, pretty much all semi-autos have metal slides.
<It's amazing to me the incredible amount of misinformation that
propogates
<through this newsgroup, though to be fair, there is also a bountiful
<amount of good info as well. Just remember to take everything with
<a grain of salt until you find a consistent, reliable source of
information.
<Tim
Couldn't have said it better. It is a wonder that more of these people
don't accidentally blow themselves up.
Marc
Joe123OK
Glocks, Sigs, Berettas and H/k's are all top shelf firearms...as well as
the harder to find CZ-75. Best advice I can give you is to buy the one
you feel best with as far as the actual way the gun feels in your hand.
All are well built, accurate, and reliable. My favorite is the CZ, but
it's an older design...not for the novice shooter...Like my Glock an awful
lot too. Berettas and Sigs are noted for reliability, etc. Can't go
wrong with any of these choices! Also might check out the pricey Walther
models... good luck!
Semtex
I have an HK USP 9mm Compact, and I've also shot the Sig 228 and used to
own a Glock 17. I personally prefer the HK. In my personal experience,
the HK has no more recoil than the Sig, and is just as, if not more,
accurate. It's a little smaller than the Sig. It's also lighter as it
has a polymer frame, and has a bobbed hammer, which is nice if you plan
on using it as your carry weapon as I do. Also, the HK is significantly
less expensive -- about $100 to $150 less than the Sig where I'm from.
It's also worth mentioning that the HK has an external safety lever,
which the Sig doesn't have. As for the Glock, they seem to have more
recoil than both the Sig and the HK, and you may or may not like the
trigger pull. Glocks, as you probably know, also don't have external
safety levers. Of course, the only person who will know which gun is
best for you, is you. We all have different combinations of priorities
with respect to what's important to us in a gun. So sample each of the
guns you're considering before you buy. Happy shooting!
Cliff in Atlanta
An added note: I have conducted my own personal tests between my Glock
19, and my Beretta 92FS. Laying them both side-by-side, with the same
ammo in each, I shot once in each one then put it down and shot the
other. I tested for felt-recoil, and accuracy this way for about 50
rounds or so. I used NATO FMJ 124gr. and also GA ARMS 124gr. JHP +P.
The conclusion I came to is that the Glock handled the felt-recoil
slightly better, with less muzzle flip. That may have contributed to the
Glock being slightly more accurate with both ammo types. I still love my
Beretta, but the Glock is what I carry.
Jeff
Cliff in Atlanta wrote:
#
# An added note: I have conducted my own personal tests between my Glock
# 19, and my Beretta 92FS. Laying them both side-by-side, with the same
# ammo in each, I shot once in each one then put it down and shot the
# other. I tested for felt-recoil, and accuracy this way for about 50
# rounds or so. I used NATO FMJ 124gr. and also GA ARMS 124gr. JHP +P.
#
# The conclusion I came to is that the Glock handled the felt-recoil
# slightly better, with less muzzle flip. That may have contributed to the
# Glock being slightly more accurate with both ammo types. I still love my
# Beretta, but the Glock is what I carry.
I tried the same thing with my Glock 23 and Beretta 96, and got just the
opposite results. The 96 recoil was just a little bit less and the
groups were a little tighter. I still carrying my Glock.
MacLeod
Jeff wrote:
#
# #
# # An added note: I have conducted my own personal tests between my Glock
# # ammo in each, I shot once in each one then put it down and shot the
# # other. I tested for felt-recoil, and accuracy this way for about 50
# # rounds or so. I used NATO FMJ 124gr. and also GA ARMS 124gr. JHP +P.
# #
# # The conclusion I came to is that the Glock handled the felt-recoil
# # Glock being slightly more accurate with both ammo types. I still love my
# # Beretta, but the Glock is what I carry.
#
# I tried the same thing with my Glock 23 and Beretta 96, and got just the
# opposite results. The 96 recoil was just a little bit less and the
# groups were a little tighter. I still carrying my Glock.
In 9mm you absolutly can not beat a Glock for reliability. I've owned
several Sigs and a Glock, all the sigs I've ever owned have jammed on
me, very occasionally mind you but they will fail. The Glock I own has
never failed. And I'm going on 10,000 rounds through it. My Glock is the
most amazing gun I own.
Raandyman
Have tried all and couldn't much with Glocks, the guy next to me could
strike matches with one! The HK's were OK. I have tried several SIG P226's
and found they were very accurate. Stunned to find they were VERY ammo
sensitive, and most military rounds just got a dented primer, and would
not fire, even on second hammer drop.Tried several P226's with same
results!!!. Lapua, Selier & Beliot were the only military ammo that worked
great. Regular factory loads and handloads also worked fine, no misfires,
but careful on other military brands. Glocks have a center trigger safety
bar that can be dangerous for new users. Hope this helps some Randy
Raandyman
Good advice, I have blown myself up a couple of times and it 'aint fun.
Careful Randy
John Leveron
raan...@aol.com (Raandyman) wrote:
#Have tried all and couldn't much with Glocks, the guy next to me could
#strike matches with one!
(snip)
#Glocks have a center trigger safety bar that can be dangerous for new
#users. Hope this helps some Randy
I gotta admit, I'm stymied by this last bit; how is the trigger safety
"dangerous" for new users? John.