How can one tell if a Gew 98 is shoot-able?

[news]

Hi, I have a K-98 8mm Mauser bolt action rifle made in 1936 and love it.

I would like to get a Gew 98, the WWI-era long rifle that preceded it,
but given the age of such a rifle, how do I tell if it is in
safe-enough condition to shoot?

I am not a gunsmith or know what to look for, but I have eyes and know
what my good-condition K-98 in the receiver and looking down the
barrel. Is there anything practical beyond that, that I can look for
myself?

Please reply, with whatever tips you might lend, thanks,

--
Dan Stephenson

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
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[clarkm...@gmail.com]

Of ~ 100 98 Mausers I have looked at, they were all safe to shoot.

If you want to check the headspace, you can count how many layers of .004 ~ .005"
thick masking tape can be put on the case head of your ammo before it is harder to
close the bolt. That will tell you more than a gunsmith who checks with a go and a
no go gauge.

[Sheldon]

"news" <ne...@newsfe03.iad.highwinds-media.com> wrote in message
news:kp35fs$r7t$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Hi, I have a K-98 8mm Mauser bolt action rifle made in 1936 and love it.
#
# I would like to get a Gew 98, the WWI-era long rifle that preceded it,
# but given the age of such a rifle, how do I tell if it is in
# safe-enough condition to shoot?
#
# I am not a gunsmith or know what to look for, but I have eyes and know
# what my good-condition K-98 in the receiver and looking down the
# barrel. Is there anything practical beyond that, that I can look for
# myself?

This is a tough question. Without showing it to a gunsmith with the
equipment to determine if it has any cracks you can't see I would probably
hang it on the wall. That said, you can always give it a good visual check,
and if all looks well take it to the range and secure it with lots of
sandbags to keep it steady. Tie a string to the trigger, stand way back and
see what happens when it fires. If it fires 3 or 4 times with no problems it
should be good to go, keeping in mind this is no guarantee it won't blow at
some time. Also, be sure to wear safety glasses as you would with any gun at
the range.

Keep us posted and looking forward to other answers. Good question for any
old gun.

[David R. Birch]

On 6/10/2013 6:10 PM, clarkm...@gmail.com wrote:
# Of ~ 100 98 Mausers I have looked at, they were all safe to shoot.
#
# If you want to check the headspace, you can count how many layers of .004 ~ .005"
# thick masking tape can be put on the case head of your ammo before it is harder to
# close the bolt. That will tell you more than a gunsmith who checks with a go and a
# no go gauge.

How does this masking tape nonsense tell more than gauges designed and
manufactured to properly measure head space? For instance, are you
testing 7.62X51 head space with a .308Win round or 7.62NATO?


If a gunsmith told me he used masking tape to measure head space, I'd
never return to his shop and tell my friends to stay away.

David

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

On Monday, June 10, 2013 6:41:01 PM UTC-7, David R. Birch wrote:
# How does this masking tape nonsense tell more than gauges designed and
# manufactured to properly measure head space? For instance, are you
# testing 7.62X51 head space with a .308Win round or 7.62NATO?
# If a gunsmith told me he used masking tape to measure head space, I'd
# never return to his shop and tell my friends to stay away.

First I doubt that the OP's headspace is a problem, I am just heading off at the pass the typical gunsmith busy work.

OK, I did took some data.
I put a piece of 3/4" round 4140 pre hardened to RC 26-32
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/72982689?Arg=nv
I chucked it in the lathe, and reamed a should deep .308 chamber into one pre drilled end.
I squared the other end.
I put the steel in a magnetic V block on a granite surface plate.
Then I zeroed the height gauge for a 1.630" Forster 308/243 go gauge.
The precision I had on zeroing with the reference was -0.0010" to + 0.0005" with 20 data points.
I measured 10 pieces of new Winchester brass -0.0010 to +0.0015"
I measured 1 piece Bulgarian military ammo at +0.0000"
I measured 1 piece Venezuelan military ammo at -0.003"
I measured 1 piece Portuguese military ammo at +0.0010"
I randomly picked 1 piece Win brass and added layers of 3M Scotch blue [masking tape]
1 layer +0.0050"
2 layers +0.0110"
3 layers +0.0150"
4 layers +0.020"
5 layers +0.0230"
6 layers +0.0270"

I took a picture of the test setup
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/Measuringshoulderdatumon308brasswithForsterheadspacegaugeasareference6-11-2013.jpg

That is all I have time for today, but there is a lot more out there.
Google "masking tape headspace".

[drw...@cimtel.net]

The irreplaceable expertise of a good gunsmith manifests itself relative to
your question in several ways:

1. Knowing what to look for

2. Having the proper measurement and visualization tools to aid in the exa
mination.

3. Having the experience to understand what he sees and measures might mea
n.

The latter can not be adequately provided via internet BS from anybody. =20

My opinion is that it is always worth a few dollars to have a good professi
onal pass judgment on any used rifle before shooting. Unless you have reli
able information that a particular piece has been in recent active use, I c
an not recommend bypassing a smith's evaluation. I can think of no big reas
on why this step is less or more advisable with a 20 year old used weapon t
han a 100 year old used weapon. The small reason I can think of is that th
ere are no shortage of people (including at least on one this board at pres
ent) who stupidly reload vintage cartridges beyond cartridge and vintage ap
propriate pressure levels --- doing God know's what,

That said, I also think you should know enough to almost never buy a used w
eapon which might fail a gunsmith's evaluation for basic function and safet
y. Here are some of the basics.

1. It is always wise to consider buying only pieces in obviously good and
reasonably well cared for condition. Worn out junk is junk and it is almos
t never worth the investment to repair. Generally, I rule out anything tha
t requires more than cosmetic repairs. =20

2. No matter how good the rest, it is seldom a good idea to buy a gun where
the bore looks less than really good. Beyond this, a good gunsmith will l
ook very critically for any evidence of a "swelling" or "bulge" in the bore
/barrel. This is a killer find. When hoop strength of the steel has been
strained enough to bulge a barrel, a dangerous level of metal fatigue is po
ssibly present. Unless obscenely obvious, this is one of those things heavi
ly dependent upon lots of experience to see.

3. Any evidence of crack formation in the receiver. Experience in recogniz
ing this is really important and beyond most of us simply because we are un
likely to have seen enough examples to recognize the problem. Good light,
magnification, and a complete examination with the stock removed is require
d.

4. Any evidence of crack formation around the recoil lugs on the bolt.

5. Evidence of cracks in the stock wood behind the receiver or in the wrist
area. Such defects may be repaired so as not to pose any safety defect an
d if done skillfully will be almost unnoticeable. But if you lack the skil
ls to do yourself, are a significant gunsmith cost.

6. Assuming the above are in order, and particularly with service rifles, h
ead space should be checked. Masking tape might mean something to Clark or
any other gun crank that has calibrated his "feel" of force involved in bo
lt closure, but not to me. Passing a "no-go" gauge test is the minimum her
e. You can buy the gauge yourself for a particular cartridge from Brownell
s. Or, for about the same money, get a complete rifle evaluation from a go
od gunsmith.

At this point, we are pretty sure the piece in question is not going to com
e apart if fired. We are not sure that the rifle will fire, and we are not
certain that the rifle is safe to handle and use. Accordingly, before pur
chase, I recommend:

7. Checking out the trigger and firing pin at a basic level of function.
In a Mauser I would do so by cocking the bolt (on an empty! rifle) and drop
ping a pencil with newish eraser, eraser end first down the barrel. When t
he trigger is pulled and is minimally functional, the firing pin will usual
ly launch the pencil. You can be pretty sure a chambered round will go off
if this test is passed. Otherwise, a repair that will cost money is a like
ly necessity.

8. I always check safety function by first making sure that the rifle will
not "fire" as part of the "pencil test" when the safety is engaged and the
trigger is pulled. I then make sure that the rifle will not fire (empty e
xcept for pencil) when I thump the butt (padding may be in order) on the fl
oor with both the safety on and off. Problems detected here are usually re
pairable (at a cost) by a good gunsmith).=20

To the best of my ability, I do all of the above before I buy. Before I sh
oot, I have a gunsmith check head space and double check my opinion regardi
ng 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 above. =20

With the above in mind, I really see very little reason why one might a WWI
Mauser to be more or less safe to shoot that a WWII vintage Mauser. More
caution is in order for Pre-98 actions and some "non-German" producers.

[Stanley Schaefer]

On Jun 9, 6:09=A0pm, "news" <n...@newsfe03.iad.highwinds-media.com>
wrote:

# Hi, I have a K-98 8mm Mauser bolt action rifle made in 1936 and love it.
#
# I would like to get a Gew 98, the WWI-era long rifle that preceded it,
# but given the age of such a rifle, how do I tell if it is in
# safe-enough condition to shoot?
#

# I am not a gunsmith or know what to look for, but I have eyes and know
# what my good-condition K-98 in the receiver and looking down the
# barrel. =A0Is there anything practical beyond that, that I can look for
# myself?
#
# Please reply, with whatever tips you might lend, thanks,
#
# --
# Dan Stephenson
#
Biggest thing would be headspace as far as safety is concerned. You
could strip the gun and look for cracks in the receiver or demil holes
in the barrel. These things were designed with an abundant margin of
strength for the ammo of the time. What you need to look for besides
bore condition is locking lug setback and somebody's dicking around
with it. Headspace gauges are what's needed to check for that.

A good WWI 98 is worth a bit of cash these days, not like when you
could get them for $20 out of the back of the gun rags. They're almost
to the point where they're too expensive to shoot, too many have been
sporterized and truly original specimens are getting rare. Look
carefully for signs of a franken-gun, one assembled from spare and mis-
matched parts. Should have all matching numbers and the finish should
be matching. They're getting rare enough to get the fakers busy.
There are several tomes on Mausers that you should probably read
before looking for a collector's piece.

If you can take a ball cartridge and stick the bullet completely in
the muzzle, the muzzle is worn out from cleaning and it's not likely
to be much of a shooter. Some have been worn enough that it will
swallow an 8mm cartridge neck down to the shoulder. What some
importers have done to such guns is to drill them out for an inch or
two to get rid of the worn section, they're no longer original, but
may shoot better. Something to watch out for.

Beware of steel-cased WWII Nazi ammo. There's no telling how it was
stored, it was meant to be used almost as fast as it was produced.
I've seen some accounts where the powder ate the steel case out from
the inside. leading to case separations or worse. Not a lot of it
left around as surplus, belt-feeders shot most of it up when it was
cheap, but another thing to watch for.

Stan

[Bob Holtzman]

If you do this be sure to notify the shooters on adjacent benches that
you test firing an unknown gun and don't know it's safe.

Also measure the case head diameter just ahead of the web both before
and after firing. If the case has expanded more than thousandth or so
the gun is probably unsafe.

--
Bob Holtzman

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2013-06-10, clarkm...@gmail.com <clarkm...@gmail.com> wrote:
# Of ~ 100 98 Mausers I have looked at, they were all safe to shoot.
#
# If you want to check the headspace, you can count how many layers of .004 ~ .005"
# thick masking tape can be put on the case head of your ammo before it is harder to
# close the bolt. That will tell you more than a gunsmith who checks with a go and a
# no go gauge.

That won't tell you much because the tape is compressible. Better to buy
as thin a sheet of shim stock as you can find, cut pieces out that will
fit the bolt head and see how many it takes to produce a light drag on
the bolt handle when you close the bolt. The sum of those shims is your
head space. Being old and feeble minded, I can't remember how much is
too much. Clark, can you supply the number?

--
Bob Holtzman

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2013-06-11, David R. Birch <dbi...@wi.rr.com> wrote:
# On 6/10/2013 6:10 PM, clarkm...@gmail.com wrote:
# # Of ~ 100 98 Mausers I have looked at, they were all safe to shoot.

# #
# # If you want to check the headspace, you can count how many layers of .004 ~ .005"

# # thick masking tape can be put on the case head of your ammo before it is harder to
# # close the bolt. That will tell you more than a gunsmith who checks with a go and a
# # no go gauge.
#

# How does this masking tape nonsense tell more than gauges designed and
# manufactured to properly measure head space? For instance, are you
# testing 7.62X51 head space with a .308Win round or 7.62NATO?

Because the masking tape/shim stock method measurs head space where the
go/no go gauges measure nothing. They only tell you if the head space
falls between two limits.

#
#

# If a gunsmith told me he used masking tape to measure head space, I'd
# never return to his shop and tell my friends to stay away.

Me too for the reason I stated in my reply to Clark.

--
Bob Holtzman

[Gunner Asch]

#
#I took a picture of the test setup
#http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/Measuringshoulderdatumon308brasswithForsterheadspacegaugeasareference6-11-2013.jpg
#
#That is all I have time for today, but there is a lot more out there.
#Google "masking tape headspace".


Ooooh! Starrett Pink Surface plate! Be still my heart!

Sigh..I only have a 24x36" black one.

And about 5 smaller ones...snivel....

But! my height gage is a Mity!

[BP]

clarkm...@gmail.com explained :
# Of ~ 100 98 Mausers I have looked at, they were all safe to shoot.
#
# If you want to check the headspace, you can count how many layers of .004 ~
# .005" thick masking tape can be put on the case head of your ammo before it
# is harder to close the bolt. That will tell you more than a gunsmith who
# checks with a go and a no go gauge.
#
#
I think 8mm Mauser has an additional complications in determining
headspace. For example, the Forster Products site notes that there
are/have been 2 different specs for the shoulder angle: 19 Degrees and
20 degrees 48'. To further complicate matters, the switch wasn't made
at one point in time. Apparently tHere may have been a 15 to 30 period
when both were used. I don't know what the original German specs.
were, or what the design specs may have been for the ammo to which the
tape is applied.

[Murff]

On Sun, 16 Jun 2013 02:03:41 +0000, BP wrote:

# I think 8mm Mauser has an additional complications in determining

# headspace. For example, the Forster Products site notes that there
# are/have been 2 different specs for the shoulder angle: 19 Degrees and
# 20 degrees 48'. To further complicate matters, the switch wasn't made
# at one point in time. Apparently tHere may have been a 15 to 30 period
# when both were used. I don't know what the original German specs. were,
# or what the design specs may have been for the ammo to which the tape is
# applied.

8th edition Hornady reloading handbook gives an angle of 19 degrees 6',
whilst 49th edition Lyman says 20 degrees 48'. Lyman also says that the
German military revised the cartridge in 1905 when they went from .318"
diameter 226gr round nose to .323" diameter 154gr (presumably, though
Lyman doesn't say, a spitzer). So a guess would give 1905 as the "point"
at which the change happened, with the long handover period due to using
up existing stocks of ammunition, and rifles already in inventory.

--
Murff...

[news]

# 8th edition Hornady reloading handbook gives an angle of 19 degrees 6',

# whilst 49th edition Lyman says 20 degrees 48'. Lyman also says that the
# German military revised the cartridge in 1905 when they went from .318"
# diameter 226gr round nose to .323" diameter 154gr (presumably, though
# Lyman doesn't say, a spitzer). So a guess would give 1905 as the "point"
# at which the change happened, with the long handover period due to using
# up existing stocks of ammunition, and rifles already in inventory.

Well now that is helpful. If I was uncomfortable with a very very old
gun at .318"; the bonafide 0.323" as in my K98 would make me feel much
better. And if I stayed with the American 8mm Mauser ammo
manufacturers, which do not load as hot, that would be another factor
toward safety. Hmm. A nice WWI-era rifle would be sweet! I love how
the sights start at 400m...

--
Dan Stephenson

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:25:34 PM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:
=20
# Ooooh! Starrett Pink Surface plate! Be still my heart!

I got that in the pic hoping to impress you... but I do not remember how it
got it.

In the dot com bust, ~ 2000 ~ 2001 there were many machine shops in the Sea
ttle area that went out of biz and the equipment was up for auction. My bro
ther and I were putting together our amateur gunsmithing machine shops at t
hat time. I probably got that pink granite surface plate from one of those
auctions and paid next to nothing. There were other things there that did f
orm memories; 1) John Benjamin [Benjamin barrels] would drive up from Orego
n for the auctions. Conversations with that guy are likely to be memorable.
2) There was an auction with ~ 200 guys bidding that moved around the room
. It was a dot com outfit that had branched out into race cars. In the corn
er there as a 6" Kurt vise. Only about 10 guys could see it. I was the only
one bidding. I got it for $87. I busted out laughing when the auctioneer s
aid, "Sold". They did everything but pick me up and throw me out for laughi
ng. Tool gloating is something best done away from the auction.

I have never made a nickel from gunsmithing. I even give away guns. But I d
id run a black ops workshop. I was an electrical engineer contract engineer
designing electronic boxes for a new jet. The client company used to have
a machine shop, but sold it. All machine work was supposed to be done with
purchase orders to outside machine shops. Technicians would put drawings an
d steel plates on my desk. I would machine them at night after dinner and b
ring them back in the morning. I added my extra hours to my bill. My gunsmi
thing lathe, mill, height gauge, etc, paid for themselves quickly.

Today I am designing and building a non invasive scope mount for an old Col
t target 22 pistol, but I primarily build about 3 rifles per year and then
shoot deer with them.
In the last year I built an 1885 257 Roberts Ackley improved rimmed, a 260
Rem on a commercial Mauser action, and a 7mmRM on a rem 700 action. I used
Shilen stainless #3 tapers on all of them.

I should say something about headspace. I headspace magnums at .215" to fit
the brass, not at .220" like a commercial headspace gauge would have you d
o.=20
I headspace 6mmBR to fit new Lapua brass.
I headspace 7.62x54R to fit Lapua rims
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/762x54Rheadspacegaugedrawi
ngandpics6-23-2011.jpg
However, with clocking issues, I get compelled to make a headspace gauge th
at is one turn off, and has relief cuts for extractor and firing pin.

But with .223 and 308 family cartridges, I use the go gauge. The go gauge c
an also be used to set up sizing dies.

And if my brother is reaming a chamber in his lathe, no amount of my hand w
aving with a piece of brass will do. I have to put a go gauge in his hand.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 00:53:55 +0000 (UTC), "clarkm...@gmail.com"
<clarkm...@gmail.com> wrote:

#On Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:25:34 PM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:
#=20
## Ooooh! Starrett Pink Surface plate! Be still my heart!
#
#I got that in the pic hoping to impress you... but I do not remember how it
# got it.

I dont remember where I got my black 24x36 Microflat either....shrug

https://picasaweb.google.com/104042282269066802602/ShopDec282012#5827216677847482194

This one gets most of the use

https://picasaweb.google.com/104042282269066802602/ShopDec282012#5827202414882250498

Feel free to browse around.

https://picasaweb.google.com/104042282269066802602

See anything you need..let me know..I have lots of extra Stuff.

I fix machinery in machine shops, and am always dragging something
home.

Gunner

[drw...@cimtel.net]

Murff:

In 1905 virtually all older military Model 98 8mm Mausers chambered in 318
diameter 8 mm Mauser were rebarreled/rerifled to take 323 bullets in tandem
with change in issue cartridge specifications. With a pre-1905 military i
ssue, it does not hurt any to slug the bore though. And for any pre-98 Mau
sers in 8mm ot is more likely, but not certain, to still be barreled for 31
8.

That said, most commercial 8mm x 57 Mauser rifles were barreled for 318 dia
meter bullets with this practice continuing up to WWII - maybe even afterwa
rd. Barrels on commercial 8mm Mausers may be clearly marked (e.g., 8x57 j
for 318, 8x57 js for 323) or not with this same confusing situation applyin
g for rimmed versions of the 8x57 (8x57 jR for 318, 8x57 jRs for 323). But
not being clearly marked is more the norm. If you get into German prewar
commercial rifles, it is a pretty good idea to get some cerrosafe for chamb
er casts and learn how to slug a bore. =20

European produced commercial ammo assumes the buyer of 8x57 Mauser ammo is
smart enough to know whether the bore of his or her rifle is 323 or 318. S
o this stuff is loaded to be basically a ballistic peer of the 30-06. Shoo
ting "hot" Norma or RWS 8mm loads with 323 bullets can be embarrassing in a
318 bore rifle. US 8mm ammo assumes the shooter is stupid and lawyer proo
fs by means of weak (about 30-30 ballistics) loads. My advice is slug the
bore, measure groove-to-groove, and load the right bullets for the bore.
=20

Huntington has 318 sized bullets with Normma Oryx 318 bullets being a quali
ty hunting bullet for use in prewar commercial german guns. Properly matchi
ng bullets to bore makes quite an accuracy difference. I am told you can s
pecial order a 318 bullet sizer die from Lee and squeeze down about any 323
jacketed bullet you want, but I have yet to try this.

[Murff]

On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:55:23 +0000, drwilly wrote:

# Properly matchi ng bullets to bore makes quite an accuracy difference.
# I am told you can s pecial order a 318 bullet sizer die from Lee and
# squeeze down about any 323
# jacketed bullet you want, but I have yet to try this.

Thanks, interesting.

Unadventurous of me, I know, but I think I'll stick to my .30-06.

--
Murff...

[Sheldon]

"Bob Holtzman" <hol...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:kp8f54$3q8$1...@news.albasani.net...
#
# If you do this be sure to notify the shooters on adjacent benches that
# you test firing an unknown gun and don't know it's safe.
#
# Also measure the case head diameter just ahead of the web both before
# and after firing. If the case has expanded more than thousandth or so
# the gun is probably unsafe.

Excellent points, but I think when you drop back with the string they'll
get the idea and scatter. :-)

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2013-06-21, Sheldon <she...@sopris.net> wrote:
#
# "Bob Holtzman" <hol...@cox.net> wrote in message
# news:kp8f54$3q8$1...@news.albasani.net...
# #

# # If you do this be sure to notify the shooters on adjacent benches that

# # you test firing an unknown gun and don't know it's safe.

# #
# # Also measure the case head diameter just ahead of the web both before

# # and after firing. If the case has expanded more than thousandth or so
# # the gun is probably unsafe.
#
# Excellent points, but I think when you drop back with the string they'll
# get the idea and scatter. :-)

If they see it! One time I was at one end of a range with a long firing
line and couldn't see what was going on in the middle let alone the
other end. Sure as Hell, someone arrived to test his elephant loads,
tied the gun to a tire laying on the bench, backed off with the string
and hid behind his car without telling anyone. Fortunately, the load
didn't disassemble the gun, but......

--
Bob Holtzman

[Kevin Snodgrass]

On Mon, 10 Jun 2013 00:09:32 +0000, news wrote:

# Hi, I have a K-98 8mm Mauser bolt action rifle made in 1936 and love it.
#
# I would like to get a Gew 98, the WWI-era long rifle that preceded it,
# but given the age of such a rifle, how do I tell if it is in safe-enough
# condition to shoot?

No help beyond what others have mentioned, but was just wondering if you
would like to "complete the set". In the back room I have a GEW 88, the
rifle that preceded the GEW 98. It is shootable and I believe JS bored
but just going off memory on that.

If interested send email but put something useful in the subject, I get
more than 60 emails a day at that address...