How does a target shooter start a fire?
Dov Benyamin
someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
Win a Fulton Armory AR-15 "Game Gun" while supporting RKBA.
Details at http://www.myguns.net
-----------------------------------------------------------
RB
# I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
I thought the same thing, perhaps he was shooting blackpowder.
A BP shooter burned down the new shooting range at Bass Pro in grapevine
TX a few years ago. They were not impressed.
Wolfie
> ...
The Yosemite fire is reported to have been caused by target shooting
but the local fire marshall would not elaborate. So, if their
catalytic converter or a cigarette butt started the fire, it's still
the fault of target shooters...see? So the logical thing to do, at
least in CA, is to outlaw target shooting.
Jim Yanik
news:g6sau1$6lv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
SWAG;
burning powder bits landing on very dry combustibles.
It might only smolder unnoticed for awhile,then flare up after the shooter
has departed.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
haraoi...@yahoo.com
# I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
#
Isn't it great how the press can use pejoratives? Not only did this
person start a fire, but they were SHOOTING too!
We had a man using tracer ammo start a fire on the range I used to
work for. It didnt get too far before we saw the smoke, and used water
to put it out. Another way is to get careless burning your used
targets. One range I belong to in Vermont asks its patrons to please
burn all of their used targets.
The easiest way for a shooter (or anyone) to start a fire is to
carelessly discard a cigarette.
JLG
> ...
Shooting at rocks with Milsurp steel core ammo, often used for
plinking. At least I have heard that put forth as the reason when
shooting during dry conditions is banned.
JLG
Long Ranger
"Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g6sau1$6lv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
I don't know the facts of this case, but right away I think the guy probably
started it by very conventional means, like a cigarette, or a hot muffler
through the weeds etc. The fact that guns were involved has to be mentioned
by the media as a matter of course any time something goes wrong.
Barns
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
#
#
Here are a couple ways: Shooting tracer ammo, and shooting steel jacketed
ammo which can spark on impact and could start a fire.
Either uf these could start a fire that could smoulder unnoticed for quite
awhile and not burst into flame until after the shooter had left the area.
Omelet
Dov Benyamin <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
Tracers.
And yes, it's not uncommon. More than one Bouquet canyon fire near where
I used to live was started by Tracer fire.
--
Peace! Om
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)
rjma...@yahoo.com
# I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
#
How about a richochet off a rock causing some sparks into dry brush.
Randy
Bob Bethune
1. The shooter started a fire while shooting, not by shooting, i.e.,
was smoking or some such.
2. The shooter did something, perhaps with the gun, perhaps a hot
barrel, perhaps with a hot casing, perhaps with a bullet hot on
impact, that caused a smolder that the shooter didn't notice. I don't
find this scenario very convincing, but I have heard that the western
forests can get just totally tinder-dry to the point that you look
cross-eyed at it and it ignites.
On Jul 31, 8:24 am, Dov Benyamin <dov_benya...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
# I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
It's those sparky bullets:-)
More seriously, maybe it was a moron using tracers.
Or perhaps unlucky and bouncing FMJ off some flint (back to sparky
bullets...)
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff
BillM
#out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I
# live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline
# and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire
# unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or
# some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before
# it spread?
Steel core, steel jacket or tracer ammo. Lots
of (most) 7.62x39 ammo is steel
jacketed. Black powder arms throw sparks, and
if shot with a patched roundball
the patches can ignite. A bullet could knock
two rocks together and cause a spark.
Lots of possibilities, all with a very LOW (but
possible) probability of starting a
fire. More likely is that "shots were heard in
the area. A fire started. Therefore
the shots started the fire." Flawed logic,
unless they have a confession or witnesses.
Uncle_vito
that just having people in an area tends to produce forest fires.
Likely due to smoking (tabacco or otherwise) when no smoking is allowed and
one admits that they do sneak one occasionally.
Vito
"Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g6sau1$6lv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Gerald "Brick" Brickwood
"Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g6sau1$6lv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
But, there are things like tracer ammo (for .22 LR) available or the
blackpower packed exploding targets that certainly could cause a fire or
maybe even propane or butane containers. Likewise, the target shooter could
have also been a cigar smoker who discarded his butt carelessly.
Unfortunately we don't have all the answers.
gkbiv
steel cored or jacketed ammunition. The second involves tracers, I had
an Air Force small arms instructor claim that tracers were causing
fires on one of their ranges were the bullets impacting in a swamp.
George in Las Vegas
Jim Bianchi
# I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
Living and shooting in a swamp (or a 'wet' area) is entirely
different from living and shooting in a rural California area. Apparantly
one or more bullets impacted on a rock and the impact caused sparks, which
set nearby grass/leaves on fire. That area (and the state as a whole) is
EXTREMELY dry during these summer months and windy.
Sound improbable? Not really. Devestating forest fires have been
started by one lit cigarette butt flicked out the window of a car. Also the
hot catalytic converter muffler systems have caused grass/brush fires when
the car was parked (or stopped) in a grassy area.
--
ji...@sonic.net
Robert
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
#
tracers
Robert
Jim Yanik
# There are two ways I can think of, the first involes sparks caused by
# steel cored or jacketed ammunition. The second involves tracers, I had
# an Air Force small arms instructor claim that tracers were causing
# fires on one of their ranges were the bullets impacting in a swamp.
# George in Las Vegas
wouldn't steel JACKETED ammo be kinda destructive to the barrel?
and it would be prone to rust,too. then it would cause excessive chamber
pressures.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Stuart Wheaton
# "Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:g6sau1$6lv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# #I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# # someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# # only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# # can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# # barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# # case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
# #
# #
# Here are a couple ways: Shooting tracer ammo, and shooting steel jacketed
#
# Either uf these could start a fire that could smoulder unnoticed for quite
# awhile and not burst into flame until after the shooter had left the area.
If the fire started in the impact area, it would be pretty logical to
assume the shooting was the cause, and if you start a fire 300 yards
away in tinder dry brush/grass, can you run 300 yards with enough water
to put it out before it grows out of your control?
I've seen places where people will shoot at about anything they care to
bring in, including metal items and even propane tanks. Some people do
not go out of their way to make all shooters look like sensible folks.
Brian Bunin
#On Jul 31, 5:24 am, Dov Benyamin <dov_benya...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# > ...
#
#The Yosemite fire is reported to have been caused by target shooting
#but the local fire marshall would not elaborate. So, if their
#catalytic converter or a cigarette butt started the fire, it's still
#the fault of target shooters...see? So the logical thing to do, at
#least in CA, is to outlaw target shooting.
#
We've had fires caused at our rance by ricochets of FMJ pistol ammo.
And we're NOT talking about milsurp steel....
It can happen. Shooters, here in Nevada, have to watch out for that sort of
thing.
DeathWind1
> ...
I Was Stopped From Shooting By A Fire Dept In Skamana Co. Washington---
The Only Reason I Was Allowed To Continue Was I Was Shooting Lead
Bullets---Was Told ANY Jacketed Bullet Could Start A Fire---You Cannot
Believe How TINDER Dry That Land Can Get Unless You Have Been There In
Sept. Oct.
Mk VII
were shooting on. No obvious cause (and no tracers, either). Blazed up
pretty quick, too.
Marcel
: In article <g6sau1$6lv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
: Dov Benyamin <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: # I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
: # someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
: # only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
: # can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
: # barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
: # case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
: Tracers.
Not very likely, since tracers are very much illegal to even possess
in California: the Penal code make any tracer a "destructive
device". (section 12301(a)1 except for shotguns).
In addition, the California Health and Safety code has pages of
fireworks rules, which tracers will fall under, somehow.
Cheers,
=Marcel
Wayne
At a local private range here in So Cal, members are required to carry a
minimum of a shovel with them for firefighting purposes. Shooting during
dry windy conditions is discouraged.
sta...@prolynx.com
# gkbiv <gk...@cox.net> wrote innews:g6tsgm$j3j$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# # There are two ways I can think of, the first involes sparks caused by
# # steel cored or jacketed ammunition. The second involves tracers, I had
# # an Air Force small arms instructor claim that tracers were causing
# # fires on one of their ranges were the bullets impacting in a swamp.
# # George in Las Vegas
#
# wouldn't steel JACKETED ammo be kinda destructive to the barrel?
#
# and it would be prone to rust,too. then it would cause excessive chamber
# pressures.
#
# --
# Jim Yanik
# jyanik
# at
# kua.net
#
Nope, been used at least since WWI for military ammo, some European
hunting bullets also had mild steel jackets. Most Combloc ammo has
steel cases AND steel-jacketed bullets, a lot has steel cores, too.
There is a potential rust problem there, the hunting bullets solved it
by sandwiching the steel between two layers of nonferrous alloy when
rolling it out, military bullets are copper plated and the cases
either plated or lacquered. WWII German ammo ended up with sintered
iron bullets, barrel wear was increased, but by the time it became a
problem, the weapon was usually lost, captured or destroyed. MG42s
and -34s just swapped barrels when it became a problem. Pressures
weren't increased, either. This isn't hard alloy steel, it's very soft
mild steel, next thing to pure iron. The cores are hard, though, for
armor-piercing. These WILL spark if they hit a rock. I've seen enough
shoots where they had to suspend firing while the range crew went out
to beat out the fires started by tracers and AP ammo.
Stan
Omelet
Jim Bianchi <ji...@sonic.net> wrote:
# Also the
# hot catalytic converter muffler systems have caused grass/brush fires when
# the car was parked (or stopped) in a grassy area.
I nearly started a brush fire once when stopped for a few minutes in a
weedy driveway. The weeds were dry.
Fortunately I saw it and dumped a bottle of water on it to put it out,
then got my small shovel out and dumped dirt on it.
It started under the catalytic converter.
--
Peace! Om
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)
Omelet
I don't think the government is restricted by state bans? ;-)
--
Peace! Om
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)
Flash
Do you remember that chili cook-off a few years ago (I THINK it was in
Texas) where a hot catalytic converter started a grass fire and about
hundred vehicles went up in hot (chili) smoke?
I'd have to Google a bunch to find it, if it is findable at all, but memory
holds a trace, connected with chili cook-off.
Flash
Omelet
"Flash" <flash...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
# Om,
#
# Do you remember that chili cook-off a few years ago (I THINK it was in
# Texas) where a hot catalytic converter started a grass fire and about
# hundred vehicles went up in hot (chili) smoke?
#
# I'd have to Google a bunch to find it, if it is findable at all, but memory
# holds a trace, connected with chili cook-off.
#
# Flash
I did not hear about it, but it would not surprise me!
--
Peace! Om
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)
RSweeney
#I keep hearing reports that one of teh fires out west was started by
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
Never seen a .44 or a .45 FMJ hit a rock have you?
Just like the A-Team.
RSweeney
"JLG" <jlg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g6tseh$ivn$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...# Shooting at rocks with Milsurp steel core ammo, often used for
# plinking. At least I have heard that put forth as the reason when
# shooting during dry conditions is banned.
#
# JLG
You don't need steel. I have seen it with .44 magnum FMJ copper.
RSweeney
"Gerald "Brick" Brickwood" <bri...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:g6tsgf$j2u$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# "Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:g6sau1$6lv$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# > ...
# Lead or copper jacketed bullets don't throw sparks when they strike stone.
# But, there are things like tracer ammo (for .22 LR) available or the
# blackpower packed exploding targets that certainly could cause a fire or
# maybe even propane or butane containers. Likewise, the target shooter
# could
# have also been a cigar smoker who discarded his butt carelessly.
# Unfortunately we don't have all the answers.
I have seen sparks from copper jacketted rounds in higher powers, .44 mag
and .45+P, don't know what I hit, but it looked like the fireworks on bad TV
shows.
Dan F.
# someone target shooting. I'll grant that I live in a swamp and about the
# only way to start a fire is to use gasoline and a match, but I really
# can't understand how a shooter starts a fire unless he's resting his
# barrel on a pile of dried leaves or grass or some such, and even in that
# case, wouldn't he be able to put it out before it spread?
I am a fireman and, based on years of experience, can say without
reservation that many brush fires are started every year by a bit of
broken glass refracting and/or focusing the rays of the sun. It has
always amazed me that fires can start in areas where there are
absolutely no people about. We have been able to trace no other
causes. Some of my colleagues speculate that it's possible to focus
sunlight through a drop of dew onto the right fuel at the right place
and time... In other words, it is entirely possible for target
shooters to merely be present when the right conditions exist and
another source of combustion was coincidentally present. An
investigator who is under pressure and isn't able to fix blame may
find it expedient to place the blame on persons who happen to be
"adjacent" to the incident (read wrong place at wrong time). Of
course all of the other possibilities proposed by the other posters
are perfectly plausible and a responsible investigator should rule out
all possibilities before making his/her determination. I know the
western fires are a source of distress for those involved and hope
that the investigators are not under too much pressure to rapidly fix
blame.
R.L. Horn
# It has always amazed me that fires can start in areas where there are
# absolutely no people about. We have been able to trace no other causes.
# Some of my colleagues speculate that it's possible to focus sunlight
# through a drop of dew onto the right fuel at the right place and time...
Sometimes they just start spontaneously. A few season's worth of leaf mould
or a rotten log can stay damp even through a drought. Get some tinder on
top of that, let the bacteria do their thing, a good breeze comes up, and
before you know it you have a fire.
Wolfie
> ...
It's indisputably hazardous, especially during the type of heat we out
west have been experiencing this summer. Where normally I have a few
spots in the woods for target practice, right now I won't shoot
anywhere but at the range, some 35 miles distant, due to the dry
conditions. But we have some tweaker/boozer neighbors up the road who
have no qualms about blasting away with whatever they have ammo for at
all hours of the day or night. Their place is littered with trash and
junk...all kinds of stuff to cause ricochets and sparks.
I would never suggest it's impossible to start a fire from shooting,
even fmj. My jaded response to the early reports of shooters being
responsible probably has more to do with WHERE it happened (CA) than
the actual mechanics of cause. The "target shooters caused it" and no
further details or elaboration seems a bit conclusive.
Wolfie
Omelet
"R.L. Horn" <ne...@eastcheap.org> wrote:
# On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 01:48:56 +0000 (UTC), Dan F. <noco...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#
# # It has always amazed me that fires can start in areas where there are
# # absolutely no people about. We have been able to trace no other causes.
# # Some of my colleagues speculate that it's possible to focus sunlight
# # through a drop of dew onto the right fuel at the right place and time...
#
# Sometimes they just start spontaneously. A few season's worth of leaf mould
# or a rotten log can stay damp even through a drought. Get some tinder on
# top of that, let the bacteria do their thing, a good breeze comes up, and
# before you know it you have a fire.
I've seen smoke rising from bags of leaves in the sun, piled in my back
yard. I promptly dumped them out and kept an eye on them until the
smoldering from the composting action stopped.
I sometimes snitch bags of leaves from local curbs in the fall for
composting. I never did understand why people with gardens rake leaves,
bag them, then throw them in the landfill.
--
Peace! Om
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)
Dale Alexander
property. No vegetation left to burn, everything else ok. Come on out here
and shoot at our range with no fire worries!!!
Dale Alexander
Paradise Rod and Gun Club
www.prgclub.org
Alex Cunningham
# I sometimes snitch bags of leaves from local curbs in the fall for
# composting. I never did understand why people with gardens rake leaves,
# bag them, then throw them in the landfill.
#
I do a similar thing. Free organic fertiliser. :-)
It works because I do manage to grow some wonderful tasting vegetables, and
I only use organic material as a fertiliser.
--
Cheers!
Alex.C
There are twelve million sheep in Ontario.
Problem is nine million of them think they are people.
Omelet
"Alex Cunningham" <sly_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
# # I sometimes snitch bags of leaves from local curbs in the fall for
# # composting. I never did understand why people with gardens rake leaves,
# # bag them, then throw them in the landfill.
# #
#
# I do a similar thing. Free organic fertiliser. :-)
Free organic mulch to me. <g>
# It works because I do manage to grow some wonderful tasting vegetables, and
# I only use organic material as a fertiliser.
Saves me on water bills.
--
Peace! Om
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
- Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)