What happened to the good old games?
The Grey Wolf
I've looked about me in the arcades, and it pisses me off to no end that there
are some great playable games out there, most of which *end*, the rest of
which are impossible to get through on one quarter simply because there
isn't enough additional energy with which to survive, no matter how well one
does.
It's neat to have a game that has a story line, and even more so to have one
that has enough different scenes to make it interesting. But it really
sucks large square rocks through a garden hose that one can invest a
whole bunch of money/credits in a game only to *finish* and not be compen-
sated for the leftover lives. Better one should die eventually.
These days it could be accomplished much more readily -- something like
Defender or Stargate or Robotron (not Smash TV -- too much doesn't make
sense!) could increase in difficulty far more than just 100 waves;
they wouldn't have to stop at wave 99 and half-ass wrap to wave 0.
TANGENT: Did'ja ever notice that Stargate, at waves 101 and 201
gives you a "Bonus x 100" for your humanoids at the end? That's
pissant compensation for fighting all that stuff. 1000 points best case
is a pittance....
RETURN FROM TANGENT.
With the advent of 32-bit processors and 24-bit colour screens, we could
achieve some truly awesome reworks of the older games. To truly wrap
around to wave 1 again, one would have to complete over four billion waves.
At the rate of one wave per minute at best, it would take eight thousand
one hundred seventy-one years to get that far. Imagine it getting
continually more difficult up beyond wave 100. Now *there*'s a game.
Oh, and what's with the scoring these days? Note that scoring doesn't have
jack-diddly to do with achieving extra lives anymore? Note that the bonuses
are just kind of ...well, *there*? I guess they're trying to make score
pretty much meaningless and put more emphasis on game play -- at least until
the *end* of the game, when you get on the high score table (for what it's
worth). Whatever happened to the reasonable bonuses at the end of a wave
(like you *might* get 20,000 points on a good day), and the reasonable
scores? These days, you get 500,000 points for taking three steps past
the starting line. Oh, and the machine *might* give you an excuse of
a *chance* at getting an extra life. Then, again, it might not. It
depends on the time of the day, the phase of the moon and the mood of the
CPU. Whatever happened to 10,000-point or incremental (progressively
harder) extra lives?
I once heard that the reason that pinball scores advanced so far was
a direct reflection of our economy. Perhaps the same holds true for
video games.
Who else out there remembers the four-counter, single digit-scoring
pinball machines (the ones whose match numbers were '3', '7' and '9',
not '30', '70' or '90')? Or the ones where once a certain sequence was
completed, the specials would light ALL OVER THE PLACE and WOULDN'T GO
OUT when you hit them? You know, the ones where one had to be a true
pinball wizard to *consistently* light the special, especially/even
on the one-player machines. One sat there and plugged about three bucks
into the machine, and maybe on his last game, on his last ball, he'd
complete the sequence and hit one or two specials before the ball went
down on him. Those were the games.
Those games had a real certain charm about them, hearing all the
repeaters whirring inside...
Anyone else remember when Williams games would give replays silently?
When they started going <*klok*> when awarding a replay?
When they *stopped* going <*klok*>?
When they started going *KRACK!*?
What next?
The video/pinball world has come a long way since then, hitting peaks and
valleys. I certainly hope there are more peaks ahead.
Or maybe I'm just an old fart who remembers too much.
--
"This is *not* going to work!"
"Well, why didn't you say so before?"
"I *did* say so before!"
...!{ucbvax,acad,uunet,amdahl,pyramid}!unisoft!greywolf
Joe Matkowski <matkowsk>
Well your not an old fart. I too get disgusted walking around a typical
arcade these days and I'm only 21, but I guess that still makes me an old
timer as far as the video game era is concerned (post 1980). The only game
I wasn't old enough to really appreciate (except for the TELSTAR version,
now theres a name I haven't heard in a while -- TELSTAR) was the arcade
version of PONG.
It's just that every new (arcade) game being released is YET ANOTHER
spinoff of that entire Teenage Mutant Ninja Gaiden Ikari Double Dragon
Dudes Warriors theme and I have HAD IT with these bullsh*it excuses for
"arcade" machines. Yea there's a *decent* game here and there that gets
released like Smash T.V. and Hard Drivin' (which is more than just decent)
but even these have obvious faults which detract from thier actual
funness factor. I've only played Smash T.V. once and I finished it that one
time (no, not the complete Pleasure Dome finish). It cost me about $15.-
between my friend and me, but the point is that there's really no incentive
for me to shell another $30- or $40- bucks into this game just to find
the lousy pleasure dome. Hard drivin' is great but for 75 cents a pop
my wallet doesn't last as long as the thrill (i.e. I'd rather play pinball
for an hour than play Hard Drivin for 10 minutes).
It's very obvious to me that in general, game designers have started to
rely on the all the magnificent hardware available to them and not on
thier own creativity. If this is NOT so then why do I always find
myself scoping out an arcade to see if it has a Missile Command,
Defender, Tempest, or Sinistar etc. etc. Believe me, I'd spend a LOT
more money at the arcade these days if they kept some of the golden
oldies around. These games were completely original, that's what made
them great, not the hardware. Again, this is my point about a game like
Hard Drivin', so much effort, so much hardware (and software alike) went
into this game but for what? The concept blows because in the grand scheme
of things Hard Drivin' is just another Night Drivier, Grand Monanco, Turbo,
Pole Position I,II etc. etc. Then there's a game like Roadblasters (which
I admit I DO like to play) which is really just an upscale Spy Hunter.
I know theres a few of the old time game designers on the net (from Atari?)
and since most of the games I've mentioned are Atari's creation maybe they
would like to comment on this topic.
** Joe M. **
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility
against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" --- Thomas Jefferson
********************************* DISCLAIMER **********************************
My opinions expressed here are just that, MINE! My employer does not support
my views, flames, rebuttals, or ramblings in any way shape or form. They are
thus exempt from liability of my statements!
*******************************************************************************
William Kucharski
Add to this the fact that you _still_ can't find animation in a video game
like that of Stargate or Robotron -- stuff hundreds of bad guys on the screen,
move 'em around, and not have the game slow down -- with an 8 bit processor!
Meanwhile, games like Konami's "Lifeforce" slow down when animating more than
just a few objects...
--
===================>> Quote: "It's Night 9 With D2 Dave!" <<===================
| Internet: kuch...@Solbourne.COM | William Kucharski |
| uucp: ...!{boulder,sun,uunet}!stan!kucharsk | Solbourne Computer, Inc. |
===>> Opinions expressed above are MINE, not those of Solbourne Computer. <<===
Niilo Neuvo
In article <1990Nov12....@Solbourne.COM> kuch...@number6.Solbourne.COM (William Kucharski) writes:
> Add to this the fact that you _still_ can't find animation in a video game
> like that of Stargate or Robotron -- stuff hundreds of bad guys on the screen
Hundreds?
Well the guys were small (8x8) and colorless (4 to 8 colors). And when you
now see a game like defender the graphics seem very jumpy.
The screen is updated every 10 frames etc...
> Meanwhile, games like Konami's "Lifeforce" slow down when animating more than
> just a few objects...
Well it's japanese:-)
--
NN NN NN NN NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNN N NN N NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNN N NN N NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
NNNNNNNN NN NN NN NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
The Grey Wolf
>The only game
>I wasn't old enough to really appreciate (except for the TELSTAR version,
>now theres a name I haven't heard in a while -- TELSTAR) was the arcade
>version of PONG.
You didn't miss too much.
>
>It's just that every new (arcade) game being released is YET ANOTHER
>spinoff of that entire Teenage Mutant Ninja Gaiden Ikari Double Dragon
>Dudes Warriors theme and I have HAD IT with these bullsh*it excuses for
>"arcade" machines.
read: money suckers.
>
>It's very obvious to me that in general, game designers have started to
>rely on the all the magnificent hardware available to them and not on
>thier own creativity.
Most notably true in the department of sounds; pictures only more recently.
The sounds that Williams first put to use in the Firepower, Black Knight
and Blackout pinball machines were *wonderfully* used in Defender, Stargate,
Robotron, Joust, and Sinistar (the golden 5 from Williams, IMHO).
Have you noticed that the sounds of today's pinballs don't seem to carry
any "meaning" (for lack of a better term) like the old ones did? They're
all such generic things as a twang (Diner, Taxi) or a drum beat (BK2K).
I guess I'm just into esoterica. I'd welcome a 10th anniversary version
of Firepower (Yes, I *know* I tout this machine a lot! It was the best
one that Williams did. The locks were all in different places and there
was so much to do and so much COLOR!!!) with open arms.
>If this is NOT so then why do I always find
>myself scoping out an arcade to see if it has a Missile Command,
>Defender, Tempest, or Sinistar etc. etc. Believe me, I'd spend a LOT
>more money at the arcade these days if they kept some of the golden
>oldies around. These games were completely original, that's what made
>them great, not the hardware. Again, this is my point about a game like
>Hard Drivin', so much effort, so much hardware (and software alike) went
>into this game but for what? The concept blows because in the grand scheme
>of things Hard Drivin' is just another Night Drivier, Grand Monanco, Turbo,
>Pole Position I,II etc. etc. Then there's a game like Roadblasters (which
>I admit I DO like to play) which is really just an upscale Spy Hunter.
Actually, RoadBlasters is *much* better than Spy Hunter. The car on Spy
Hunter is a *pain* to control, and one doesn't usually get run over by
cars from behind on RoadBlasters.
> ** Joe M. **
>
>
>"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility
>against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" --- Thomas Jefferson
"When the government ceases to uphold the principles of the people, then
it is the right and responsibility of the people to abolish the government
and start over." Or something like that. -- Thos. Jefferson
>
>********************************* DISCLAIMER **********************************
> My opinions expressed here are just that, MINE! My employer does not support
> my views, flames, rebuttals, or ramblings in any way shape or form. They are
> thus exempt from liability of my statements!
>*******************************************************************************
Disclaimer: these are *not* the opinions of UniSoft Corporation -- only
of one of its workers.
The Grey Wolf
>
>In article <1990Nov12....@Solbourne.COM> kuch...@number6.Solbourne.COM (William Kucharski) writes:
>> Add to this the fact that you _still_ can't find animation in a video game
>> like that of Stargate or Robotron -- stuff hundreds of bad guys on the screen
>> move 'em around, and not have the game slow down -- with an 8 bit processor!
>
>Hundreds?
Yes. Look at a wave that ends in '9' from wave 39 up. It's packed with about
100 grunts.
>Well the guys were small (8x8) and colorless (4 to 8 colors).
Perhaps, but at least in some instances the colours changed (get a look
at everything going on inside a pod, for instance. Or a bomber...).
And I believe the resolution was better than 8x8 (a swarmer was bigger than
4x4!).
>And when you
>now see a game like defender the graphics seem very jumpy.
Defender? Jumpy? Defender has smoother updates than most chop-socki games
out there. Granted that on Robotron things appear to "jump" a bit, but only
with respect to the grunts. The rest is smooth.
And get a look at Joust. Note that while the enemies might slow down
in copious amounts, the PLAYERS maintain normal speed...
>The screen is updated every 10 frames etc...
That would do some strange things. The screen goes too smoothly for it
to be updated every 10 frames.
Of course, on Defender, one can actually freeze the processor if one knows
how, and the frame rate can vary, depending on the degree of chaos.
(anyone else notice that 13 landers on the screen doesn't cause NEARLY
as much slowdown as 5 landers, 2 bombers and 2 pods? THAT makes for a
VERY impressive smart bomb situation!)
>
>> Meanwhile, games like Konami's "Lifeforce" slow down when animating more than
>> just a few objects...
>
>Well it's japanese:-)
Okay, let's see some good, high-quality, creative FINNISH games, eh? :-)
>
>--
> NN NN NN NN NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
> NNNN N NN N NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
> NNNNNN N NN N NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
>NNNNNNNN NN NN NN NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
(come to think of it, let's see good, high-quality, creative (in all aspects)
arcade games from ANYONE these days, eh? ) :-(
Steve Baumgarten
>Most notably true in the department of sounds; pictures only more recently.
>The sounds that Williams first put to use in the Firepower, Black Knight
>and Blackout pinball machines were *wonderfully* used in Defender, Stargate,
>Robotron, Joust, and Sinistar (the golden 5 from Williams, IMHO).
>
>Have you noticed that the sounds of today's pinballs don't seem to carry
>any "meaning" (for lack of a better term) like the old ones did? They're
>all such generic things as a twang (Diner, Taxi) or a drum beat (BK2K).
BK2K has some awesome sound. Before the "Top 40 Chorus" found its way
into Diner (where you can hear it say "Number ONE!" when you make the
skill shot), it was doing its "You've got the power..." thing in BK2K.
Seemed *highly* inappropriate when I first played the game, but after
a while it seemed to fit perfectly. Who would think that such a
bizarre use of voice would fit with the sequel to Black Knight?
And what about High Speed? Probably the first game to so perfectly
integrate voice into the game play (though I suppose Eight Ball
Deluxe, which told you which shot to go for, could be considered as
well).
Also, remember that back in the good old days, before everyone and his
sister could go to Radio Shack and buy a digital synth, digital sounds
were unique. They sounded different and gave the games in which they
were used a certain techno-thrill. They weren't just the beeps and
boops and bells of the older pinball machines. Listen to some old
classic Bally games like Kiss -- just basically one sound over and
over again. Then along comes Gorgar and Firepower, with a constant
undertone of changing sounds -- wow!
So now of course, anyone can make a game talk or play music -- just
get a microphone and a couple megs of RAM. And therefore we don't
settle for what we used to settle for -- which was a couple of years
worth of great Williams pinball machines and video games which all
sounded great, but basically all sounded exactly the same. So where
else do Williams games shine?
How about playfield design and animation? I'm talking playfield
lights and backglass animation, including LED animation in the score.
Remember High Speed's dazzling extra-bright playfield lights? How
about the now-ubiquitous metal guide tubes that were also introduced
with High Speed (I think)? Just about every third or fourth Williams
game has come out with some innovation or another, from the incredible
cabinet and playfield design of Earthshaker to the playfield magnet in
Rollergames. Meanwhile, the quality flippers, the extensive QC and
play testing, the ability to keep up with game play no matter how fast
it got -- those have all been there since Day 1. And back then we
didn't take them for granted the way we do today.
So yes, I don't think there has been an equivalent step up in sound
since Williams introduced voice and digitized sound. But they are
still the only company to use voice and sound effectively and cleverly
in their games. Other companies -- like Data East -- trumpet
"innovations" like DIGITAL STEREO SOUND and SOLID STATE FLIPPERS. But
these "innovations" are by and large worthless and add no value to the
games (in fact, you could argue that those awful flippers just make
gameplay worse).
>I guess I'm just into esoterica. I'd welcome a 10th anniversary version
>of Firepower (Yes, I *know* I tout this machine a lot! It was the best
>one that Williams did. The locks were all in different places and there
>was so much to do and so much COLOR!!!) with open arms.
I agree -- I think Firepower is probably their all-time best. But
sequels are tough. Firepower 2 was a real loser, in my opinion. On
the other hand, I think BK2K is even better than the original.
Well, enough rambling. Thanks for giving me an excuse to gush over my
favorite pinball and video game manufacturer. It just irks me when
people say that pinball is standing still, or that it's not as good as
it used to be. I think that we pinball players are much luckier than
hardcore video game players, who really have been left to play
variation after endless variation of Double Ninja Bad Guys (except by
companies like Atari, which is nearly alone in producing interesting
new games these days). On the other hand, if Williams/Bally went out
of business and left us with only Gottlieb and Data East...
--
Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart,
Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you."
baum...@esquire.dpw.com |
cmcl2!esquire!baumgart | - David Letterman
Robert Jung
>And what about High Speed? Probably the first game to so perfectly
>integrate voice into the game play (though I suppose Eight Ball
>Deluxe, which told you which shot to go for, could be considered as
>well).
Jar my memory -- didn't the original EIGHT BALL have a voice too?
Jar my memory, part II -- I know Bally's XENON had a voice as well. Nothing
spectaculr by today's standards, but there was a bit of a hubbub about it
when the game first came out. What was the interest?
EIGHT BALL DELUXE had some nice voice effects (done by connecting different
snippets, e.g. "Aim for - Bank Shot"), but HIGH SPEED was more entertaining.
The dialogue between car #504 and dispatch when you locked all three balls
was enough motivation for me to keep going for multi-ball.
>Remember High Speed's dazzling extra-bright playfield lights? How
>about the now-ubiquitous metal guide tubes that were also introduced
>with High Speed (I think)? Just about every third or fourth Williams
>game has come out with some innovation or another, from the incredible
>cabinet and playfield design of Earthshaker to the playfield magnet in
>Rollergames. Meanwhile, the quality flippers, the extensive QC and
>play testing, the ability to keep up with game play no matter how fast
>it got -- those have all been there since Day 1.
Well, let's not gush too high here -- Williams can (and has) produced a
few "dogs" (IMO), though not as bad as Bally, Data East, or Gottelib.
What about SPACE SHUTTLE? JOKERZ? BANZAI RUN? TAXI? F-15 TOMCAT?
More random opinions: EARTHSHAKER and WHIRLWIND are nice, though not
_that_ innovative. ROLLERGAMES is just HIGH SPEED in a different box. And
why couldn't Williams have gotten the rights to BACK TO THE FUTURE,
instead of Data East's dog-ugly version?
> I think that we pinball players are much luckier than
>hardcore video game players, who really have been left to play
>variation after endless variation of Double Ninja Bad Guys (except by
>companies like Atari, which is nearly alone in producing interesting
>new games these days).
Either that, or "shoot everything that moves". Atari Games has some
really nice stuff (TOURNAMENT CYBERBALL, S.T.U.N. RUNNER, HARD DRIVIN'), but
sometimes I wonder why they have to put out the derivatives also (PIT
FIGHTER, HYDRA, SKULLS & CROSSBONES, BADLANDS)...
> On the other hand, if Williams/Bally went out
>of business and left us with only Gottlieb and Data East...
Don't say that!
--R.J.
B-)
P.S. So where do I subscribe to rec.games.video?
//////////////////////////////////////|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Send whatevers to jj...@nunki.usc.edu | If it has pixels, I'm for it.
--------------------------------------+----------------------------Lynx me up!
"You weren't chosen because you're the best pilot in the Air Force. You were
chosen because you're the class clown and frankly, you're expendable."
Laitinen Timo
Here are my favourite pinball games:
Williams : Rollergames
Data East : Robocop
Gottlieb : Gold Wings
Bally : Skateball
--
+---------+--------------------------+ "But if you asked me a question,
| Tinke | l11...@lehtori.tut.fi | would I tell you the truth ?"
+---------+--------------------------+ (Iron Maiden '90)
Steve Baumgarten
>In article <28...@esquire.dpw.com> baum...@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten) writes:
>>And what about High Speed? Probably the first game to so perfectly
>>integrate voice into the game play (though I suppose Eight Ball
>>Deluxe, which told you which shot to go for, could be considered as
>>well).
>
> Jar my memory -- didn't the original EIGHT BALL have a voice too?
Yes, but it didn't guide you like the voice in Eight Ball Deluxe (you
mention this later on).
> Jar my memory, part II -- I know Bally's XENON had a voice as well. Nothing
>spectaculr by today's standards, but there was a bit of a hubbub about it
>when the game first came out. What was the interest?
Right again. Xenon was the first game to moan when you made certain
shots. Male and female moaning, too. (Of course, this was before the
days of Elvira and her subtle "Nice organ!" comments.) And I think it
had a few double entendres of its own (though I can't remember any
offhand).
> EIGHT BALL DELUXE had some nice voice effects (done by connecting different
>snippets, e.g. "Aim for - Bank Shot"), but HIGH SPEED was more entertaining.
>The dialogue between car #504 and dispatch when you locked all three balls
>was enough motivation for me to keep going for multi-ball.
I kept thinking to myself, "They've got to have 8 megs of memory in
this thing. No wonder we don't allow the Soviet Union to get a hold
of them..."
Now that I think about it, the sound quality didn't have to be that
good, so they could have compressed the hell out of it. Still seemed
impressive, though. Williams was definitely flaunting it...
Speaking of which, wasn't Williams first with a soundtrack (something
that played continuously while the ball was in play)? Even the early
games, like Firepower, had some brief repeating digital sound effects.
But was High Speed the first to have a theme song?
> Well, let's not gush too high here -- Williams can (and has) produced a
>few "dogs" (IMO), though not as bad as Bally, Data East, or Gottelib.
>What about SPACE SHUTTLE? JOKERZ? BANZAI RUN? TAXI? F-15 TOMCAT?
Of those, I'd say that only Banzai Run was a dog, and only because I
never really got the hang of it. I know some who liked it.
But one of Williams "dogs" is like Best of Show at Westminster
compared to the sad excuses for pinball machines that keep rolling
out of Data East and Gottlieb. I can't even think of a Williams game
that's as bad as, say, "Lights, Camera, Action".
> More random opinions: EARTHSHAKER and WHIRLWIND are nice, though not
>_that_ innovative. ROLLERGAMES is just HIGH SPEED in a different box. And
>why couldn't Williams have gotten the rights to BACK TO THE FUTURE,
>instead of Data East's dog-ugly version?
Yes and no. That's like saying that BK2K is just Black Knight in a
new box. True, but look at the changes that were made. Rollergames
(when it works) really feels different than High Speed.
You didn't think that Earthshaker's vibrating cabinet was innovative?
It's like the pinball equivalent of Sensurround! :-) I was a
little taken aback, to say the least. The fan on Whirlwind was a
gimmick, though fun.
What other Williams innovations? First split level machine (I think);
Magna-Save; left-drain kickers; flippers that behave the way you
expect them to...
What else?
William Kucharski
> Well, let's not gush too high here -- Williams can (and has) produced a
>few "dogs" (IMO), though not as bad as Bally, Data East, or Gottelib.
Actually, I have to say that "Space Shuttle" was the first game that got me
back into pinball; previous to SS the last game I played with any regularity
was "Firepower."
--
===============================================================================