LSJ: Corruption Q
Joshua Duffin
"+1 stealth action.
(D) Put a corruption counter on a minion controlled by your prey.
If the number of your corruption counters on the minion equals or
exceeds the blood capacity of that vampire or the cost of that
ally, you may burn all of your corruption counters on that minion
to gain control of him or her."
Does the second sentence allow you to burn corruption counters
to take control of the minion at any time, or only when a
Corruption action resolves?
I think this is equivalent to "does Corruption create counters
that each have the ability to take control of minions, or do
the counters know nothing and it's the Corruption that gives
the ability?".
If the counters know nothing, why not? In general (if I recall
correctly), all counters in VTES know what they do: Sabbat Threat
counters for example; Vampiric Disease counters likewise. How
can you distinguish, based on card text, counters that contain
within themselves all their abilities from counters that rely on
the card creating them for their abilities?
Thanks.
Josh
LSJ
>Corruption says:
>
>"+1 stealth action.
>(D) Put a corruption counter on a minion controlled by your prey.
>If the number of your corruption counters on the minion equals or
>exceeds the blood capacity of that vampire or the cost of that
>ally, you may burn all of your corruption counters on that minion
>to gain control of him or her."
>
>Does the second sentence allow you to burn corruption counters
>to take control of the minion at any time, or only when a
>Corruption action resolves?
The latter.
>I think this is equivalent to "does Corruption create counters
>that each have the ability to take control of minions, or do
>the counters know nothing and it's the Corruption that gives
>the ability?".
It seems equivalent to me as well.
>If the counters know nothing, why not? In general (if I recall
>correctly), all counters in VTES know what they do: Sabbat Threat
>counters for example; Vampiric Disease counters likewise. How
>can you distinguish, based on card text, counters that contain
>within themselves all their abilities from counters that rely on
>the card creating them for their abilities?
By the use of the "You" in card text. The counters for, e.g., V.D.
or Sabbat Threat do not give "you" some ability. Likewise, neither
do Corruption counters. The ability given to "you" arises from
the successful Corruption action or the resolution of the
Venenation effect.
--
LSJ
James Coupe
Duffin <duff...@bls.gov> writes
>Does the second sentence allow you to burn corruption counters
>to take control of the minion at any time, or only when a
>Corruption action resolves?
Or during Venenation.
>I think this is equivalent to "does Corruption create counters
>that each have the ability to take control of minions, or do
>the counters know nothing and it's the Corruption that gives
>the ability?".
The counters know nothing. You need card text.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
"You reinstall Dial-Up Networking. The Elf screams and becomes EBD690ECD7A1F
an icon. *** CONGRATULATIONS! *** You completed the BT Internet B457CA213D7E6
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Aaron
> >correctly), all counters in VTES know what they do: Sabbat Threat
> >counters for example; Vampiric Disease counters likewise. How
> >can you distinguish, based on card text, counters that contain
> >within themselves all their abilities from counters that rely on
> >the card creating them for their abilities?
>
> By the use of the "You" in card text. The counters for, e.g., V.D.
> or Sabbat Threat do not give "you" some ability. Likewise, neither
> do Corruption counters. The ability given to "you" arises from
> the successful Corruption action or the resolution of the
> Venenation effect.
So we know that corruption counters don't know anything. Are they
interchangable then? IE, if there are 2 of us playing FoS. Can I put
5 corruption counters on a Ezmerlda, and someone else put 6 on her and
take control of her?(this came up in our pre-release)
LSJ
>So we know that corruption counters don't know anything. Are they
>interchangable then? IE, if there are 2 of us playing FoS. Can I put
>5 corruption counters on a Ezmerlda, and someone else put 6 on her and
>take control of her?(this came up in our pre-release)
No. Both Corruption and Venenation specify "your counters" - i.e.,
the counters you've placed. So apparently the counters remember
who placed them.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
> duff...@bls.gov (Joshua Duffin) wrote:
[re corruption]
> >If the counters know nothing, why not? In general (if I recall
> >correctly), all counters in VTES know what they do: Sabbat Threat
> >counters for example; Vampiric Disease counters likewise. How
> >can you distinguish, based on card text, counters that contain
> >within themselves all their abilities from counters that rely on
> >the card creating them for their abilities?
>
> By the use of the "You" in card text. The counters for, e.g., V.D.
> or Sabbat Threat do not give "you" some ability. Likewise, neither
> do Corruption counters. The ability given to "you" arises from
> the successful Corruption action or the resolution of the
> Venenation effect.
Hmmm. OK, I can see that the "you" distinction exists - and these
(Corruption/Venenation) also seem to be the only transient cards
that produce counters with non-mandatory effects - but it seems to
me an unsatisfying distinction. Why should it be that the use of
the word "you" (as opposed to, on Sabbat Threat, "each Methuselah",
or on Vampiric Disease, "a vampire" ... "the second vampire") makes
this an effect that only exists while the card is being played,
rather than one that exists as long as the counters being placed are
in play? (All the other cards with optional effects and "you"
wording dodge the question by putting the card on the vampire - which
would also have been a good solution for Corruption/Venenation, but
for some reason they weren't written that way.)
I suppose a really satisfying answer to that question might not
exist, but it would be nice if it did. :-) I think I'd be happier
with the card text if it said "...or the cost of that ally, *when
this action resolves* you may burn all of your corruption counters..."
or something along those lines. Or maybe if there were a semicolon
instead of a period after the first sentence. It's hard to come up
with a wording that makes it obvious that you only get to use the
take control effect when the card is played, but surely one must
be possible...
thanks for the answer,
Josh
MrTubesteak
> roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote:
> >So we know that corruption counters don't know anything. Are they
> >interchangable then? IE, if there are 2 of us playing FoS. Can I put
> >5 corruption counters on a Ezmerlda, and someone else put 6 on her and
> >take control of her?(this came up in our pre-release)
>
> No. Both Corruption and Venenation specify "your counters" - i.e.,
> the counters you've placed. So apparently the counters remember
> who placed them.
LSJ, you're kidding right? Please tell me you are. With this ruling,
Corruption is no longer a viable strategy.
I just want to make sure that I have this straight... if Hesha, for
example, places 3 corruption counters on Volker (5 cap Prince) and
Amisa, places another 2 corruption counters, then that player can't
take over Volker?
All 5 corruption counters would need to come from the same vampire?
That's just flat out insane. How can anyone have a viable corruption
strategy with this?
My playgroup plays with the understanding that a corruption counter
put on by one vampire is the same as any other corruption counter by
any other vampire under your control (ie, two vampires each put 3
corruption counters on a 6 pointer to steal him, but corruption
counters put on by other players vampires don't count towards this
total). This is difficult to pull off as is, but now it just got
harder by over a degree of magnitude.
Time to retire the old corruption deck if this is the case. I guess
its back to Pre/Obf S&B for the old Setites. :(
John Woods
Xian
"MrTubesteak" <gre...@soehne.org> wrote in message
news:ab017a15.01062...@posting.google.com...
> LSJ wrote:
> > Aaron wrote:
> > >interchangable then? IE, if there are 2 of us playing FoS. Can I
put
> > >5 corruption counters on a Ezmerlda, and someone else put 6 on her
and
> > >take control of her?(this came up in our pre-release)
> >
> > No. Both Corruption and Venenation specify "your counters" - i.e.,
> > the counters you've placed. So apparently the counters remember
> > who placed them.
>
> I just want to make sure that I have this straight... if Hesha, for
> example, places 3 corruption counters on Volker (5 cap Prince) and
> Amisa, places another 2 corruption counters, then that player can't
> take over Volker?
No, you missed the inital context. The answer refers to two different
*Methuselahs* corruption counters.
> All 5 corruption counters would need to come from the same vampire?
No, he's just saying that if *my* copy of Hesha placed 3 on Volker, and
*your* copy of Amisa placed 2 on Volker, neither of us would get him at
that point...I would need to put two more of my corruption counters on
Volker for the steal, and you would need to put 3 more of your counters
on Volker to steal him. Note that this is unlikely unless at least one
of us is playing Venenation, and Volker keeps blocking for some reason.
Xian
Gomi no Sensei
MrTubesteak <gre...@soehne.org> wrote:
>vte...@white-wolf.com (LSJ) wrote in message news:<9gvs3g$mq2$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>...
>> roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote:
>> >So we know that corruption counters don't know anything. Are they
>> >interchangable then? IE, if there are 2 of us playing FoS. Can I put
>> >5 corruption counters on a Ezmerlda, and someone else put 6 on her and
>> >take control of her?(this came up in our pre-release)
>>
>> No. Both Corruption and Venenation specify "your counters" - i.e.,
>> the counters you've placed. So apparently the counters remember
>> who placed them.
>
>LSJ, you're kidding right? Please tell me you are. With this ruling,
>Corruption is no longer a viable strategy.
>
>I just want to make sure that I have this straight... if Hesha, for
>example, places 3 corruption counters on Volker (5 cap Prince) and
>Amisa, places another 2 corruption counters, then that player can't
>take over Volker?
No, no. They must all come from the same METHUSELAH. So if Setite
player A puts 4 counters on Volker, Setite player B can't leech off all
that hard work to snag Volker with just one Corruption.
I think the other way would be vastly more amusing (and how often
do you see 2 Corruption decks at a table anyhow?), but the cardtext
does bear out the Rulemonger.
>Time to retire the old corruption deck if this is the case. I guess
>its back to Pre/Obf S&B for the old Setites. :(
No need to fret, MrTubesteak. That ol' corruption, she keeps on workin'.
gomi
--
Yes, I believe but I'd rather not pray
What I believe in I'd rather not say, baby
LSJ
>
> vte...@white-wolf.com (LSJ) wrote in message news:<9gvs3g$mq2$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>...
> > roans...@yahoo.com (Aaron) wrote:
> > >So we know that corruption counters don't know anything. Are they
> > >interchangable then? IE, if there are 2 of us playing FoS. Can I put
> > >5 corruption counters on a Ezmerlda, and someone else put 6 on her and
> > >take control of her?(this came up in our pre-release)
> >
> > No. Both Corruption and Venenation specify "your counters" - i.e.,
> > the counters you've placed. So apparently the counters remember
> > who placed them.
>
> LSJ, you're kidding right? Please tell me you are. With this ruling,
> Corruption is no longer a viable strategy.
No. Since Corruption has historically only targetted one's prey, I
don't see how this is a limit at all. Corruption's only been extended
by the new FN cards.
> I just want to make sure that I have this straight... if Hesha, for
> example, places 3 corruption counters on Volker (5 cap Prince) and
> Amisa, places another 2 corruption counters, then that player can't
> take over Volker?
If the corruption counters are all "hers", then she can, sure.
> All 5 corruption counters would need to come from the same vampire?
From the same Methuselah.
> That's just flat out insane. How can anyone have a viable corruption
> strategy with this?
>
> My playgroup plays with the understanding that a corruption counter
> put on by one vampire is the same as any other corruption counter by
> any other vampire under your control (ie, two vampires each put 3
> corruption counters on a 6 pointer to steal him, but corruption
> counters put on by other players vampires don't count towards this
> total).
Correct. That's what I said.
> This is difficult to pull off as is, but now it just got
> harder by over a degree of magnitude.
I don't think so.
If you find that I've written something "insane", you might try
re-reading it first to see if a "sane" meaning is actually present
before assuming the worst.
MrTubesteak
> don't see how this is a limit at all. Corruption's only been extended
> by the new FN cards.
I completely agree.
> If you find that I've written something "insane", you might try
> re-reading it first to see if a "sane" meaning is actually present
> before assuming the worst.
I apologize for the insane comment, but in all honesty I did read
it... not once, not twice, but thrice and I got the same thing out of
it every time. By the way the question was phrased and by your
answer, it seemed like the corruption counters did remember who put
them on, in terms of vampires and not methuselahs (since the counters
go on your prey's vampires, there isn't any chance where you'd be
competing with another methusalah for a vampire).
But, now everything is clear and everything is right with the world
(especially with the corruption deck I was in the process of
dismantling).
Again, I apologize for any offense.
John Woods
Jay Kristoff
>I think this is equivalent to "does Corruption create counters
>that each have the ability to take control of minions, or do
>the counters know nothing and it's the Corruption that gives
>the ability?".
The counters know nothing. You need card text.
Ok, If Nefertiti uses her special ability (Nefertiti can place a
corruption counter on a minion controlled by your prey as a +1 stealth
action that costs 1 blood.) to put a corruption counter on a one capacity
vampire, can Nefertiti's controller burn the counter to take control of the
vampire, or is a card (Corruption or Venenation) required?
thanks,
Jay
James Coupe
Kristoff <j...@columbus.rr.com> writes
> Ok, If Nefertiti uses her special ability (Nefertiti can place a
>corruption counter on a minion controlled by your prey as a +1 stealth
>action that costs 1 blood.) to put a corruption counter on a one capacity
>vampire, can Nefertiti's controller burn the counter to take control of the
>vampire, or is a card (Corruption or Venenation) required?
A card is required. Nefertiti's card text only allows her to add
counters, not activate them.
In short, Nefertiti is excellent for providing cardless counters, but
you still need a handful of Corruption/Venenation knocking round to
activate them.
In the instance you cite, of course, the best thing to do (most likely,
corner cases excepted) would be to just use the Corruption in the first
place.