[crawl] In search for arrows
Seek
dungeon 'till 11th level, and now I started to tackle the mines (I've seen
Lair entrance too). So the question is: where to go for some arrows. I know
that lower in the dungeon will be lots of centaurs, but unseen horrors are a
bit scary for me now. Does someone use arrows in the mines or lair?
Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.
Welcome, Robin the Elf Hunter.
// I'm listening music from old Robin Hood serial (by Calannad)
// while playing, so I'm in mood for shooting things from
// afar, and I probably do that more than I should.
Okawaru says: Welcome, disciple.
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Robin the Yeoman (Elf)
(Level 12 Hunter)
Play time: 04:17:44 Number of turns: 20779
Experience : 12/20011
Strength 22 Dexterity 18 Intelligence 15
// I've got real lucky with str boosting equipment
// plus might and I can beat troll in arm wrestling ;)
Hit Points : 68/68 (69) Magic Points : 19
AC : 9 Evasion : 14 Shield : 0
// Low AC, so I try to stay away from meele as long as posible.
GP : 479
// I'm going back to buy book of Enchentments.
You are in the Mines.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is extremely pleased with you.
// No haste yet.
You are not hungry.
Inventory:
Hand weapons
a - a +2,+2 orcish scimitar (weapon)
b - a +4,+5 bow
// I enchented it, but still I'm not certain if it helps
// with unenchented arrows.
l - a +2,+0 bow of frost
// They eat up arrows, so can't be main weapon.
r - an uncursed dwarven short sword
A - a +1,+1 elven bow
// The elven bonus is only valid when I shoot with elven ammo,
// right?
E - a +2,+2 orcish long sword
H - an uncursed dwarven short sword
Armour
m - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn)
u - a +1 cloak of magic resistance (worn)
z - a +1 robe of magic resistance (worn)
Q - a +0 steam dragon hide
// No scroll of enchent armour :(
R - a +0 pair of boots (worn)
Magical devices
k - a wand of enslavement
q - a wand of hasting (10)
// It helped me to last 'till now, and will mutate me
// a few times before I die.
t - a wand of polymorph other
Comestibles
g - 3 apples
w - 2 pears
D - 11 strawberries
Scrolls
c - a scroll of blinking
f - 4 scrolls of teleportation
// Not much teleportation, so mines are a litle scary.
i - 2 scrolls of recharging
// Some more haste, when I use up the wand. :)
C - a scroll of identify
G - a scroll of detect curse
Jewellery
s - an amulet of warding
I - an amulet of conservation (around neck)
N - a ring of poison resistance
P - an amulet of resist slowing
X - a ring of sustain abilities (left hand)
Y - a +6 ring of strength (right hand)
Z - a ring of magical power
Potions
h - a potion of mutation
n - a potion of heal wounds
B - a potion of restore abilities
K - a potion of healing
// Not much potions either.
Books
d - a book of Cantrips
F - a book of Wizardry
You have 428 experience left.
Skills:
+ Level 4 Fighting
+ Level 4 Short Blades
+ Level 8 Long Blades
+ Level 14 Bows
+ Level 8 Throwing
+ Level 9 Dodging
+ Level 5 Stealth
+ Level 1 Traps & Doors
+ Level 2 Spellcasting
+ Level 2 Divinations
+ Level 1 Invocations
You have 13 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:
Your Spells Type Success Level
k - Detect Creatures Divination Good 2
Mutations & Other Weirdness
You are partially covered in green scales (AC + 1).
Your system is immune to poisons.
Your vision is a little blurry.
You are frail (-10 percent hp).
Vanquished Creatures
The ghost of Noir the Charm-Maker, an experienced El St (D:7)
The ghost of Charon the Necromancer, an experienced DE Ne (D:12)
The ghost of Azazel the Reanimator, an experienced DS DK (D:8)
The ghost of Robin the Shooter, an average El Hu (D:4)
// My own. Oh, well. At least they rest in peace now. :)
Urug (D:12)
4 trolls
A two-headed ogre (D:10)
14 yaks
A wyvern (D:10)
5 ogres
Sigmund (D:3)
13 orc warriors
2 giant beetles
2 yak zombies
Ijyb (D:2)
A wyvern zombie (D:10)
Jessica (D:2)
// Tough ones use up a lot of arrows, and trolls are worst
// of them all.
3 centaurs
// I had 100+ ammo, and used it all up. :(
A mottled dragon (D:12)
A mottled dragon zombie (D:12)
// He left a body, but ghost of my necromancer used him
// to make zombie. :/
395 creatures vanquished.
--
Regards
Roman "Seek" Sęk
Darshan Shaligram
> Ok. I've got a nice hunter who just run out of arrows. I've done
> main dungeon 'till 11th level, and now I started to tackle the
> mines (I've seen Lair entrance too). So the question is: where to
> go for some arrows.
You could milk arrow traps, but that's a very tedious process. I
usually disarm the darn traps and take what arrows I get if I'm
seriously hurting for arrows.
> I know that lower in the dungeon will be lots of centaurs, but
> unseen horrors are a bit scary for me now. Does someone use arrows
> in the mines or lair?
My current centaur hunter (who will likely become my late centaur
hunter, now I've mentioned him here) has been using his bow quite
freely in the Lair (I've not tackled the mines yet). Thing is, I use
the bow only for things that look scary, or for fleeing monsters
that I don't want to chase down. I've level 10 Axes and a rather
decent hand-axe of electrocution that sorts out most critters
handily.
Crawl certainly doesn't make it easy to play a pure archer.
> Okawaru says: Welcome, disciple.
What a coincidence - my hunter's also an Okawarite. I'm not
convinced that was a bright choice - Okawaru's been handing
me great maces like there's no tomorrow, and I'm attached to my
large shield. I suppose there is no better deity for archers,
though.
Darshan
ru
> "Seek" <se...@poczta.fm> wrote:
>
>> Ok. I've got a nice hunter who just run out of arrows. I've done
>> main dungeon 'till 11th level, and now I started to tackle the
>> mines (I've seen Lair entrance too). So the question is: where to
>> go for some arrows.
>
> You could milk arrow traps, but that's a very tedious process.
especially as doing this tend to raise your traps skill to the point
where you can't set off traps even if you want to! (he said, having
recently burnt a whole food ration jumping up and down on an arrow
trap!)
>> Okawaru says: Welcome, disciple.
>
> What a coincidence - my hunter's also an Okawarite. I'm not
> convinced that was a bright choice - Okawaru's been handing
> me great maces like there's no tomorrow, and I'm attached to my
> large shield. I suppose there is no better deity for archers,
> though.
i'm trying Nemelex: you need ~30 strength to fully exploit a bow's
bonuses, and really high dex helps with a shield.
--
ru
Erik Piper
[...]
> Crawl certainly doesn't make it easy to play a pure archer.
>
> > Okawaru says: Welcome, disciple.
>
> What a coincidence - my hunter's also an Okawarite. I'm not
> convinced that was a bright choice - Okawaru's been handing
> me great maces like there's no tomorrow, and I'm attached to my
> large shield. I suppose there is no better deity for archers,
> though.
>
> Darshan
The old wisdom is that there is no good deity for hunters. Hmm...
Okawaru: Can aid you when you switch to melee, can help you hit the 13 mark to
get your bow enchantment bonuses (you won't otherwise) if you start out weak,
can haste you, for a high piety cost (I think). Occasionally you are showered
with useless items.
Trog: You can berserk (but you can't fire when berserk), a whole whole lot.
Later on, you can do some other stuff. If you have magic skill, forget about
using it. Occasionally you are showered with useless items.
Elyvion: You can heal yourself a lot and cure just about any condition cheaply.
Like, say, post-berserk slowing. But you're an archer, not a berserker. Later
on, you can heal yourself considerably when needed.
Xom: is Xom.
"The Shining Zin": Follow a lot of rules and eventually get a ranged attack,
except you already have one. Use it a few times and run out of piety.
Makhleb: Kill a lot. Get a ranged attack, but you already have one.
Etc. etc.
I guess Okawaru or Elyvion.
Erik
Erik Piper
> Darshan Shaligram wrote:
> > "Seek" <se...@poczta.fm
> >> Okawaru says: Welcome, disciple.
> >
> > What a coincidence - my hunter's also an Okawarite. I'm not
> > convinced that was a bright choice - Okawaru's been handing
> > me great maces like there's no tomorrow, and I'm attached to my
> > large shield. I suppose there is no better deity for archers,
> > though.
>
> i'm trying Nemelex: you need ~30 strength to fully exploit a bow's
> bonuses, and really high dex helps with a shield.
I thought it was 13???
Erik
ru
you need 14 for a +1 bonus, 16 for +2, 18 for +3 etc.
it's not quite as simple as that due to integer division (which may be
where the oft-quoted figure of 13 comes from), and ammo bonuses get
mixed into there as well.
none of this applies to crossbows, btw.
--
ru
Erik Piper
I.e. you need 14 (or maybe 13) to use the first +, 16, to really use a +2, 18
to use a +3, etc.?
I actually recently looked at the (or at least "some") missile code, in
misc.cc. I was in a hurry, though, and I'm not really a programmer, just
someone who spends too much time among programmers to be totally ignorant, so
I didn't really get much out of it. I was especially unable to bite my teeth
into the bit about how "unskilled users don't have too much trouble with
crossbows" or somesuch. It did seem like they had a big speed penalty that
went down somewhat with skill, though.
Erik
ru
> I.e. you need 14 (or maybe 13) to use the first +, 16, to really use a +2, 18
> to use a +3, etc.?
exactly.
> into the bit about how "unskilled users don't have too much trouble with
> crossbows" or somesuch. It did seem like they had a big speed penalty that
> went down somewhat with skill, though.
crossbows have a bonus to hit compared to bows, but they get a lesser hit and
damage bonus from high skills.
--
ru
Erik Piper
> > into the bit about how "unskilled users don't have too much trouble with
> > crossbows" or somesuch. It did seem like they had a big speed penalty that
> > went down somewhat with skill, though.
>
> crossbows have a bonus to hit compared to bows, but they get a lesser hit
> and damage bonus from high skills.
Interestingly, you can fire darts from normal crossbows. Not sure if that's a
bug or a feature. So you get:
Slings: Very early access, many races have good slings skill (default weapon
for many hunters), very high ST to start gaining bonuses (and main
stone-flicking races are weak). Ammo is a bit thin, though maybe not as much
as is thought (I tend to save up stones "just in case I decide to start
casting Sandblast", and during my last big game, I had about 1000 by the late
midgame... you be the judge). Verdict: Really quite good in the opening, but
suckish as time goes on.
Raw throwing (axe-throwing, spear-chucking, etc.): No clue, but I assume it
sucks.
Darts: Ammo, ammo everywhere. Damage starts out acceptable but then enters
the realm of suckishness (why am I writing like a 13-year-old today?), but
starts to be supplemented by poison (blowguns) in the early midgame. By the
early endgame, everything of note that you meet is poison-resistant, and so
all your experience invested in darts is wasted. Several races has great
darts modifiers. Default ranged weapon for warpers. Darts are plentiful, but
poisoned needles not so much. Verdict: suckish as time goes on, though
probably better than slings.
Bows: Enough ammo to be found, if, however, only by scumming. Don't expect to
avoid melee completely, though. A variety of ways to bring damage up to
we-mean-business level. Skills really help. Stats too. A few races are superb
with bows. Most hunters default to them. Plenty of bows to be found, and
relatively early, for non-hunters who want to take on bows. Elves will have
no problems finding a racial bow, FWIW. Verdict: a solid contender.
Crossbows: Due to the darts bug? Feature? there is plenty of ammo to be
found, but first you have to actually find a crossbow. If hand crossbows are
the best way to use darts, then for true minimaxing you'll want to wait to
start your crossbow courses until you find your first hand crossbow, which
means until the Elven Halls... quite late, unless you enjoy dying. Easy to
aid yourself with pluses, even if you're a weakling, but you can't aid
yourself much with skill (except speeding up your fire). Almost no hunters
start with crossbows -- perhaps dwarves, but they're not high in crossbows
aptitude (though again, skill may not be such a big deal). Verdict: a solid
contender, very good in the endgame, but hard to get started with.
I look forward to my first crossbows game, I think it would be really
interesting. Fun fact: for whatever reason, the best crossbow aptitude out
there lies with... drum roll please... deep elves. Probably a good choice for
a deep elf fighter-mage... if you can actually get far enough with a DE
fighter-mage to nab a crossbow, that is.
Erik
ru
> bork bork bork ru bork 4:05:37 PM bork 1/24/2005 bork bork:
>
> bug or a feature. So you get:
i don't think so: i think you're just throwing it, and it's an oddity in the
"find something to fire" code: i just tried a mountain dwarf hunter and
it definitely says "you throw" not "you shoot".
> I look forward to my first crossbows game, I think it would be really
> interesting. Fun fact: for whatever reason, the best crossbow aptitude out
> there lies with... drum roll please... deep elves. Probably a good choice for
> a deep elf fighter-mage... if you can actually get far enough with a DE
> fighter-mage to nab a crossbow, that is.
there's good source material justification for deep elf hunters to start
with a hand crossbow.. you could then graduate to xbow when you find
one/have enough bolts.
--
ru
Seek
> "Seek" <se...@poczta.fm> wrote:
>
> > Ok. I've got a nice hunter who just run out of arrows. I've done
> > main dungeon 'till 11th level, and now I started to tackle the
> > mines (I've seen Lair entrance too). So the question is: where to
> > go for some arrows.
>
> You could milk arrow traps, but that's a very tedious process. I
> usually disarm the darn traps and take what arrows I get if I'm
> seriously hurting for arrows.
> > I know that lower in the dungeon will be lots of centaurs, but
> > unseen horrors are a bit scary for me now. Does someone use arrows
> > in the mines or lair?
>
> My current centaur hunter (who will likely become my late centaur
> hunter, now I've mentioned him here) has been using his bow quite
> freely in the Lair (I've not tackled the mines yet). Thing is, I use
> the bow only for things that look scary, or for fleeing monsters
> that I don't want to chase down. I've level 10 Axes and a rather
> decent hand-axe of electrocution that sorts out most critters
> handily.
>
> Crawl certainly doesn't make it easy to play a pure archer.
Yeah, I noticed. ;)
But at begining everything in meele was grave danger for me. Later I found
weapon that could do some damage(with that whimpy dagger even bats could
kill me), but the fealing that meele is no way to go lasted, and so I'm out
of arrows... again.
> > Okawaru says: Welcome, disciple.
>
> What a coincidence - my hunter's also an Okawarite. I'm not
> convinced that was a bright choice - Okawaru's been handing
> me great maces like there's no tomorrow, and I'm attached to my
> large shield. I suppose there is no better deity for archers,
> though.
I'm convinced that it was best choice I could do. He gives might (which
helps with bows), and haste. If only he could give ammo, or for that matter,
if only scroll of acquirement could give you some.
> Darshan
Paul Arthur
>Crossbows: Due to the darts bug? Feature? there is plenty of ammo to be
>found, but first you have to actually find a crossbow. If hand crossbows are
>the best way to use darts, then for true minimaxing you'll want to wait to
>start your crossbow courses until you find your first hand crossbow, which
>means until the Elven Halls... quite late, unless you enjoy dying.
Not necessarily true; I recently found a hand crossbow on DL 8.
Erik Piper
I once found a +5, +10 randart mace on DL 5... but I wouldn't *count* on it...
Erik
ru
rely on finding one when planning your character.
speaking of arrows, my kenku hunter is starting to come together, having
got down to the lair. i don't think i've ever had a tougher time getting
a character to the temple, though, as 37 of his brethren came a cropper
on the way. unfortunately it's occurred to me that maybe this wasn't
such a smart character choice after all, as once he's permanently flying
milking arrow traps will become tricky :-/
--
ru
Erik Piper
> Paul Arthur wrote:
> > "Erik Piper" <efrn...@sdky.cz> wrote:
> >
> > > Crossbows: Due to the darts bug? Feature? there is plenty of ammo to be
> > > found, but first you have to actually find a crossbow. If hand
> > > crossbows are the best way to use darts, then for true minimaxing
> > > you'll want to wait to start your crossbow courses until you find your
> > > first hand crossbow, which means until the Elven Halls... quite late,
> > > unless you enjoy dying.
> >
> > Not necessarily true; I recently found a hand crossbow on DL 8.
>
> they're pretty damn rare all the same though: rare enough that you can't
> rely on finding one when planning your character.
You can rely on finding one all right; it's pretty easy to pick one up by
doing the Halls, because:
dungeon.cc:
case MONS_DEEP_ELF_FIGHTER:
case MONS_DEEP_ELF_HIGH_PRIEST:
case MONS_DEEP_ELF_KNIGHT:
case MONS_DEEP_ELF_PRIEST:
case MONS_DEEP_ELF_SOLDIER:
item_race = MAKE_ITEM_ELVEN;
mitm[bp].base_type = OBJ_WEAPONS;
temp_rand = random2(8);
mitm[bp].sub_type = ((temp_rand > 5) ? WPN_LONG_SWORD : // 2 in 8
(temp_rand > 3) ? WPN_SHORT_SWORD : // 2 in 8
(temp_rand > 2) ? WPN_SCIMITAR : // 1 in 8
(temp_rand > 1) ? WPN_MACE : // 1 in 8
(temp_rand > 0) ? WPN_BOW // 1 in 8
: WPN_HAND_CROSSBOW); // 1 in 8
break;
Not possible early, not possible without going to a place that's rather nasty
until you're buff, but possible.
If you're unlucky and don't actually find one while clearing the Halls, then
you can just milk the monster regeneration there until you do.
By the way, deep elven assassins start with a hand crossbow! [drool]
> speaking of arrows, my kenku hunter is starting to come together, having
> got down to the lair. i don't think i've ever had a tougher time getting
> a character to the temple, though, as 37 of his brethren came a cropper
> on the way. unfortunately it's occurred to me that maybe this wasn't
> such a smart character choice after all, as once he's permanently flying
> milking arrow traps will become tricky :-/
Most of my attempts with Kenku have been disastrous. The armour restrictions
suck, for example. But for some reason I recently got a Kenku Death Knight
pretty far before putting him on the back burner until I win with my current
obsession, a Hill Orc Crusader (a veritable genius -- his INT is now up to a
whopping 15, though he's quite clumsy on the other hand).
Erik
Erik Piper
> Erik Piper wrote:
> > bork bork bork ru bork 4:05:37 PM bork 1/24/2005 bork bork:
> >
> > Interestingly, you can fire darts from normal crossbows. Not sure if
> > that's a bug or a feature. So you get:
>
> i don't think so: i think you're just throwing it, and it's an oddity in the
> "find something to fire" code: i just tried a mountain dwarf hunter and
> it definitely says "you throw" not "you shoot".
wpn-misc.cc:
unsigned char launched_by(unsigned char weapon_subtype)
{
switch (weapon_subtype)
{
case WPN_BLOWGUN:
return MI_NEEDLE;
case WPN_SLING:
return MI_STONE;
case WPN_BOW:
return MI_ARROW;
case WPN_CROSSBOW:
return MI_BOLT;
case WPN_HAND_CROSSBOW:
return MI_DART;
default:
return MI_EGGPLANT; // lame debugging code :P {dlb}
}
} // end launched_by()
OK, I give. Didn't make sense anyway. I swore I was seeing the action raise
Crossbows skill. Maybe there's a bug where you're throwing darts on the one
hand and exercising crossbows on the other?
Erik
ru
> By the way, deep elven assassins start with a hand crossbow! [drool]
really? woo! i'll try that next, then.
>> speaking of arrows, my kenku hunter is starting to come together, having
>> got down to the lair. i don't think i've ever had a tougher time getting
>> a character to the temple, though, as 37 of his brethren came a cropper
>> on the way. unfortunately it's occurred to me that maybe this wasn't
>> such a smart character choice after all, as once he's permanently flying
>> milking arrow traps will become tricky :-/
>
> Most of my attempts with Kenku have been disastrous.
my attempts with a kenku reaver have all failed, but then reavers are quite
difficult to get started anyway. i wanted to avoid centaur hunger.
> The armour restrictions suck, for example.
i seem to be really unlucky finding good armour, so maybe i haven't noticed
this quite so much.
--
ru