Stern Pinball: This just in
Terrapin Mark
http://coinoptoday.com/j/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1094&Itemid=1
miracleman
from the article...
"Longtime director, Joe Blackwell, has moved onto the operator side of
the coin-op industry."
Old School Al
I haven't read the article yet but word is Joe Blackwell quit.
Lloyd Olson
aspect of the industry for a different company. LTG :)
"miracleman" <psycho...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bf91c05f-b2cc-43f2...@a29g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Daniel Tonks
> I met Pat at several of the expos. Great guy.
>
>
> http://coinoptoday.com/j/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1094&Itemid=1
For as long as Joe was there, Stern had unrivalled service and support. No
disrespect to Pat, whom I don't know, but without Joe around I wonder how
long those standards will be kept up.
- Dan
mnpinball
>
> For as long as Joe was there, Stern had unrivalled service and support. No
> disrespect to Pat, whom I don't know, but without Joe around I wonder how
> long those standards will be kept up.
>
> - Dan
Our local AM 1500 radio station in Minnesota said today that with
massive layoff and financial troubles Stern Pinball will be closing.
How did they get this info.
Does this mean 24 will not be released ?
Lloyd Olson
and 400 miles away ? I wouldn't put any stock on their info. LTG :)
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:88f8ea3c-eb1d-43c5...@q30g2000prq.googlegroups.com...
mnpinball
> Our local AM radio station is an expert on a different company a few states
> and 400 miles away ? I wouldn't put any stock on their info. LTG :)
>
>
> news:88f8ea3c-eb1d-43c5...@q30g2000prq.googlegroups.com...
>
> Our local AM 1500 radio station in Minnesota said today that with
> massive layoff and financial troubles Stern Pinball will be closing.
> How did they get this info.
> Does this mean 24 will not be released ?
LTG, there is more involved than you know.
There will be a big post from someone in the ranks soon.
Be realistic, dark days are coming.
Lloyd Olson
I am realistic. This is my livelihood and not my hobby. I can't afford to be
passionate and misguided in hearsay.
Every day when I go to my business and open my doors for the day, I am
existing in realistic.
I've spent a lifetime in this industry. You couldn't even begin to
contemplate all I have seen that has come and gone. You are just now taking
a step into the wondrous world of being an operator. Go forth and learn. And
just maybe with enough time and paying attention, you may learn all about
realistic. LTG :)
"mnpinball" <mnpi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e8e0fba7-d74d-4247...@w39g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
miracleman
Your 'inside info' teasing is getting pretty f-ing annoying.
Weren't you totally wrong on the "no 2.0 code for Batman" ?
put up or shut up
mnpinball
I believe you have me confiused with someone else.
I am not speaking for someone else, they will post here soon enough.
I am not teasing anyone. 2.0 was S-M and yes it exists but not
released I have no control over that.
Magic Mike
predicted. Surprised me too!
If a multi-million dollar license like TDK didn't sell, I seriously
doubt that dated licenses like CSI and 24 are going to turn things around
for Stern.
Mike
chuck
I think the point they were trying to make is you come off as a tad
bit of an ass when you post about "secret info" that only you know.
We all understand you are talking to someone who works at stern. I
think you would be better of refraining from the "I have a secret and
you don't" posts. If you really don't mean to sound that way thats
how it comes off.
respectfully submitted.
Rare Hero
I think there are several factors as to why Bats didn't sell.
1.) For Operators: Released very soon after Indiana Jones. If ops
just dropped some dough on Indy, and Indy's making money on
location...why would they need to buy a Batman?
2.) For Collectors: The collector market hated Indy for the most
part...they were skeptical after that game, not to mention the code
issues plaguing the latest releases. Even after it came out and got
better code...it's just not even remotely in the same league as TSPP,
LOTR, FGY, S-M ...if you're in the market for a Stern, there are
better choices when a game doesn't knock your socks off. Throw the
shitty economy on top of that, and there ya go.
Greg
Lloyd Olson
In troubled times misinformation runs rampant. A rumor here, an email there.
Often doesn't have near enough facts to portray an actual picture of what is
going on. And what is read, is often interpreted by what the reader thinks
or wants to hear.
Even an employee on the inside, might not know everything.
And even going from post on the internet, to a big post from someone in the
ranks is a huge stretch.
Even someone working for Stern, or that has worked for them, can only fill
in pieces of the puzzle.
Just because you read or heard something, doesn't mean it's coming from the
burning bush. And shouldn't be taken carte blanche.
There is only one person that knows the whole picture. And until Gary Stern
speaks, we really don't know much. LTG :)
"chuck" <ch...@source9.com> wrote in message
news:789a0d2b-8f4b-4221...@w24g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
miracleman
You are correct.
I apologize.
I was thinking of derek's 'inside info' which was, of course, wrong.
please don't come here and brag about YOUR inside info, though, it
does make you seem cocky.
Eric Schmitt
> 1.) For Operators: Released very soon after Indiana Jones. If ops
> just dropped some dough on Indy, and Indy's making money on
> location...why would they need to buy a Batman?
I'm with you on that, but AAA seems to like every game.
http://www.pldb.org/loc.php?plid=200
--Eric
Lloyd Olson
"Eric Schmitt" <erics....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4e6339f-c9fc-44f9...@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
homebrood
That's just made up info, there's no way anyone at some station in Min
knows Jack!
Stern may hunker down and may seem to almost dissapear but they will
be there for years to come IMO.
There is a bright light way down there at the end of this tunnel and
it's not going to burn out soon!
I'ts an LED!
Below me
If this is the case, it is a sad day for Stern, pinball and people
involved in the industry and the hobby as well. You would have to go
far and long to find someone as nice and with as much class as a Joe
Blackwell. This is disturbing news, if true... I hope it isn't.
Twp...@gmail.com
Well, at LEAST the next game (CSI) is announced on the site. Site was/
is still up last I checked and taking orders for CSI. I don't doubt
Stern could go under within 1 or 2 years, but don't think it's
**quite** yet. Of course, you could blame to some degree the IDIOTIC
timing of IJ4 & Batman, and the unfinished code. You CAN'T ignore
those 2 things.
There's a LOT of things they did/do wrong. Shrek, IJ4, & BDK proved
that places are putting 1 or 2 games a year on location. So why not
make 1 or 2, and cut your costs? To further prove timing, IJ4 is
CLEARLY the worst game AND the weakest theme, yet it's the most on
location and what earned for ops this summer. BDK or Shrek would've
prolly done even better, no? Paying for all 3 of those themes was a
waste unless 1 or more came dirt cheap.
Enough home buyers got scared by the code issue to NOT buy BDK.
The sad thing is that ALL OF US saw this coming. Why didn't Stern?
Not that I could run a pin company, but it
is sad.
T
popbumper.com
guys they laid off. While it doesn't look pretty for anyone in any
business, and the crush of the economy continues to hurt everyone, I
think the speculation that revolves around this topic in this group is
crazy. What good does bogus postings do for pinball? Why in the world
would anyone make up crap, just to get negative attention to this
issue of Stern and the layoff?
If there was ever a time for people to find an operator to support, or
for collectors to promote pinball to friends by holding pinball
parties, or even buying a machine, it is now. While everyone can't do
all of those things, everyone here can find a pinball machine and drop
a quarter or 10 in them. And if you can't find one, quit complaining
on the group, and call an operator and request one, or find out where
one is. No operator supporting pinball? If you are an owner, become an
operator!
If you aren't helping this effort, your hurting it! Negative
speculation is even worse.Take some action to make a positive
difference.
The bottom line is ... no demand, no product, no ability to make
payroll. Anyone that has ever run a business gets this immediately. I
personally hope Gary finds a product that will sell. If its
redemption, so be it. I would be happy with 1 pinball per year and him
keeping his business alive with redemption, then no pinball at all and
Stern out of business. The man is in this to make money - true. But I
can guarantee that he hasn't done this for the past 8 years or so just
because he's getting rich. He WANTS to make pinball. He WANTS
distributors to carry the product and he desperately WANTS operators
to buy pinball. It's the hardest sell. If you have any doubts about it
- buy a single issue of Replay or Playmeter and read it all. Get your
head into the operator's world and you'll start figuring this stuff
out.
I mean this post at no single person directly. I am simply posting to
share a grand summary of my own experience as an operator, and share a
bit of the hours I've spent on the phone with the people involved,
covering this very topic since the layoff. It sucks for all of them.
They all want pinball to have a long future. But the truth is, it is
barely alive.
Rob
Magic Mike
Since Gary has stated that he doesn't make his products for collectors,
I don't see how collectors can be to blame for Stern's business drop.
Bottom line, listen & pay attention to your all of your customers
regardless of what percentage they give your business.
Mike
mattyb
>
> - Show quoted text -
These are my thoughts as well. I bought BDK foolishly thinking Stern
would redeem themselves with a complete software package. Wrong! The
SM sitting next to it blows it away. Now I, like apparently many
others, am holding my money to see if Stern will deliver a finished
product. MattyB.
Twp...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Does anybody know what the cost of the theme was for Shrek, IJ4, BDK,
or CSI? To me that's a big factor. If they paid big bucks for Shrek-
what a waste! I'd like to see them scale down and maybe put out 2 or
3 QUALITY - FINISHED games, and hopefully that, instead of 4 or 5,
will lower costs, along with the recent layoffs. Most arcades will
pick up 1 or maybe 2 games a year, no more. And timing is just as big
as theme. FGY was a decent theme, but most arcades were "due" to buy
a game. Then, SM was a "must-have", so they got it right that time.
But IJ4 & BDK were both potential "must-haves" and IJ4 satisfied that
already; plus they came out too close together.
I'd rather them do less, but do it better. And OF COURSE it's better
than NOTHING, and I will drop quarters into the new Stern's- if I can
find 'em!
T
mnpinball
Among the obvious factors of economy and the dwindling location
pinball factor there are many reasons for pinballs demise which I will
list in no particular order.
1. Location play is at an all time low.
Factors are pinball has been on the steady decline since the late
90's.
Ever since the home gaming took a foothold it's simple, kids and this
generation don't leave home.
I have a building full of pins and my kids rather would play x-box and
the newest PC game like Fallout 3 with a buddy.
Internet gaming is huge. My kids rarely play pinball unless there is
a party here.
2.Theme has alot to do with it. Stern's demise was WoF, I liked the
gameplay as many others voiced as well but the theme just turned off
so many that it was a dud out the door before release. The talk on rgp
before it's release was horrible. Don't get me wrong I gave it a
chance and loved it as well but even I had to sell it to fund another
Stern.
3.Rules and depth of a game have progressively gone to much to the
home and die hard player.
This is a double edge sword. The home player may want a deeper
ruleset for longetivity but it can almost kill a game for the
resources it takes to finish the game. Take for instance WoF. This
was a massive code nightmare and the time and resources to finish the
game were just to much to bear.
4.Code and the finished product.
I recently got a NASCAR from an operator. I always update the code and
ROMS when I get a game.
This game straight from route and it had v1.02 ROMS, a broken test car
coil bracket and a few other issues. I ordered up the current ROMS
which were v4.50 and installed them and repaired the bracket. The new
ROMS also take in account to be nicer to the test car bracket. The
point is the bigger ops on location DO NOT update pins. Games play
better and get better overall revenue from a top condition "proper"
playing game. It's important that the pin releases with code that
offers complete modes and inserts working out the door to receive the
best possible chance of succeeding. The majority of bigger ops DO NOT
update code. LTG and SS Billiards are a different kind of business
that "cater" to the pinball player. Lloyd updates games.
5.I for one really like IJ4 as do many of my pinball friends. It's not
the deepest game obviously but it's alot of fun.
Batman had the problem of coming out 2 months after IJ4. many
operators had used the funds of buying IJ4's and had a tough time
purchasing another new game or 2 within months of release. Timing was
just bad. It was a matter of to much to soon.
Pinball needs to get back to some basics and more understandable
rules. There is room for easier games and deeper games. Theme does
put restrictions on where to go and I believe non licenced themes are
also just as capable of doing well if not better in some instances.
Rare Hero
> Pinball needs to get back to some basics and more understandable
> rules. There is room for easier games and deeper games.
Here's the thing about rules. The casual/newbie player has no clue
pinball even HAS rules, simpler or deep. They just think the point is
to hit the ball around long enough not to lose it. A casual player
will get the same experience playing TSPP or IJ4. However, once a
casual player "figures it out", they become US and want a game that's
good. So - to say that games have to be dumbed down for the casual
player to have interest...I just find that to be untrue. There's a
reason TSPP and LOTR have remained popular over so many years.
I'm not saying good rules will save pinball. I think rule sheets are
irrelevant to saving pinball. ...but I'd hate to see the ART of
pinball die before the business does.
Greg
dcoppe...@hotmail.com
next time your talking to Gary , please let him know that sound alike
actors are not good enough . if you have to pay more for a licence and
use less from the movie and more sound effects , than do that .the
best williams and bally machines had awesome jackpot callouts and
exciting in your face sound effects . make a goal worth achieving .
well that will do for starters . just had to get that off my chest .
lotr was well done in that regard .
Rare Hero
> the
> best williams and bally machines had awesome jackpot callouts and
> exciting in your face sound effects . make a goal worth achieving .
> well that will do for starters . just had to get that off my chest .
> lotr was well done in that regard .
Spider-Man's Blacksuit Super Jackpot is hard to achieve, but it's
really cool....Peter Parker trying to tear off the black suit and
screaming "AAARGGHGHGHGGHHHH!!!!!"
Greg
Steven
> On Nov 6, 9:49 pm, mnpinball <mnpinb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Pinball needs to get back to some basics and more understandable
> > rules. There is room for easier games and deeper games.
>
> Here's the thing about rules. The casual/newbie player has no clue
> pinball even HAS rules, simpler or deep. They just think the point is
> to hit the ball around long enough not to lose it. A casual player
> will get the same experience playing TSPP or IJ4.
I don't think that's true! When you give a game a few simple obvious
basic rules, even newbies notice. My Dr.Who is played most by my
guests! Not because they don't really like the BSD mist multiball, or
they don't like the Shaker motor on WWF, but because they have
something obvious to shoot for that's fun and gives multiball. I think
that's why IJ4 is a succes on location. Partly for the theme (I don't
agree that it's a bad license: I think it is great), but mostly
because it's obvious that it's a good thing shooting the Ark! One of
the software-makers at Stern once said he didn't understand there were
so many Dr.Who's sold, from a novice point of view, but I think the
obvious ball lock and getting multiball is the main reason. When I was
a kid, I did the same in the pub on Dr.Who: no clue of all the rules,
the multiplier, how to get to videomode, but wow.... I just had to
lock those balls and get multiball. Dr.7 was the only doctor I used a
lot. The rest I just took for granted.
I do however agree that MOST of the rules, even shallow ones, aren't
usefull for the casual player. So I'm not saying we need games with a
simple rulesheet, but I do think there need to be 2 or 3 REAL obvious
rules in a game (in DrWho: locking, getting all 15 lights lit and
getting jackpot). That might give CSI some advantage: a noticeble ball
lock for everyone to see!
dcoppe...@hotmail.com
yeah i've heard that from a number of people on here and wish i could
hear that one . was going to buy a bsm but could not afford it in the
end . wish someone would put a new you tube of the latest code of
spiderman .
PinMan
knowledge of pinball, and b) enough money to put it where there mouth
is start some routes and have GOOD WORKING & UP TO DATE pins on
location, so maybe as a whole pinball can generate some new interest
and attract people to actually put quarters in a game on location?
Better yet have them come back and play the game again because it
worked perfectly and they had fun?
Mike
"Every day when I go to my business and open my doors for the day, I
am
existing in realistic. "
Lloyd,
That is the greatest quote I have ever heard. So true.
-Mike
mattyb
Good points. I especially agree that a non-licensed theme may be in
order these days. People, including kids are drawn to things they've
never seen before. Well, who hasn't seen a product with Batman
plastered all over it? They've seen the Batman movie, played with the
Batman toys, sleep on the Batman sheets, and carry the Batman bookbag.
Now they see a Batman pin...Boring! STERN, GIVE US SOMETHING WE'VE
NEVER SEEN BEFORE! MattyB.
black...@skynet.be
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
If you say the next game should be a non-licensed game, they can close
their doors without trying to survive...
Gary does the exact thing what is needed to let pinball survive,
licensed themes are in need today!
If an op can choose between a POTC or some unknown theme, he wil
choose for the instant recognition, you're attracted to something
you're interested for...
non-licensed games are games with low interest, for instance look at
Kingpin. the game HAS a reputation, is a non-licensed game and it is
so hard to fill only 150preorders, it's something for the homebuyers
and the problem is that they don't represent in sales numbers for NIB,
homebuyers do not buy 1000NIB Batman's for example.
The PinKeeper, AZ
have all had deep rule sets.
The problem with a shallow rule set is at some point the player is
going to get sick and tired and become bored with doing the same thing
over and over and lose interest.
The deep rule set gives the player something to keep playing for.
It's exactly what Rare Hero said. At some point the casual player
starts to figure it out and wants more and if that more is'nt there,
it's over.
That's what made games like TAF, TZ, IJ, MM, AFM, TSSP, LOTR and many
other pins with deep rules sets so popular. They all give the player
some easy and obvious obtainable goals but as those easy goals become
repetitive and easier for the player, those pins offer much much more,
which holds the player's interest and makes them want more.
Simple, basic pins are failures. Sega made quite a few pins with
great and very popular themes, but the gameplay and rulesets were
repetitive and boring. Hit the ramp and orbits 90 times and get 10
multiballs and 4 extra balls. That's only fun for a very short period
of time. That's why Sega pins are not popular and priced for almost
nothing.
Pinball has failed when it comes to advancing through time and
becoming better. Every other electronic/entertainment product made
in the last 20 years has advanced and become better. Pinball should
be no different.
What made pinball popular in the early 90's was the advancement of
pinball. Pins like TAF, TZ, IJ offered new technology, game features
and multiple game modes and deep rules that had never been seen
before. What has changed with pinball in the last 15 years ? They
have less to offer now than they did then. So is it any surprise
that the demand and popularity has declined ?
Pins like TSSP and LOTR was as close as Stern got to giving people
what they want and that's why every other pin is always judged against
those pins. In "REALITY", anything less is a disappointment and over
time will lead to fewer and fewer people having an interest in
spending $4000. for your product.
Products like TV's, stereos, computers, video games, phones, dvd
players, phones, home appliances, movies have all advanced and become
better and faster and have kept up with providing what people want.
Despite all of these things becoming more and more expensive, people
continue to buy and buy and continue to want more and more.
In the end, the success of any business is the CUSTOMER and giving the
CUSTOMER what they want. If you don't deliver, then your doomed or
if you don't have the ability to deliver, then your doomed.
I've bought 19 NIB Stern pins in the last 6 years and have tried to
support Stern the best that i can, but Stern has failed me when they
decided that home buyers are'nt important and that software updates
for customers that spent alot of money was unimportant.
Not finishing the software on WOF was a big, giant F.U. to myself, my
money and all of the other WOF owners and players. I won't get into
the other software issues with other pins. They are all one in the
same and all contribute to what i consider UNACCEPTABLE.
I have thoroughly enjoyed all of my Stern pins, but as a customer, i
demand and expect more if you want to keep my business and money
coming back. Not going backwards and delivering an unfinished
product that your customers have faith and trust that you will finish
what you started.
I pre-ordered just about every one of my 19 Stern pins and Stern
always, in the end, delivered a finished product. Then the SAM
system came along and has been nothing but a way to circumvent the
software creation process. The pins that were made before SAM were
far better and far more complete than anything since. SAM has now
allowed Stern to just stop completely and leave thier customers with
an unfinished product.
Where is Stern's customer service when it comes to WOF ? At least
send me a stupid letter telling me that the software will never be
finished with an apology. Is that asking too much after *ucking me
out of $4000. ? Instead, Stern chooses the customer service approach
of just ignoring us and sweeping it under the rug and hoping we go
away.
Anyways..... i trusted Stern and now with all of their latest moves
and lack of taking care of its customers and respecting our hard
earned money, they have lost my trust and have lost my business.
Just my opinions, but in the end and in the REAL world, it's my money
and that means that as a CUSTOMER, it's my opinions matter the most.
Sorry if anyone is offended, angry or disagrees by/what i said, but i
had to speak my mind, whether anyone agrees or not.
In the end i want to send out a million thank you's to all of the
great former WMS/Stern employees that have provided me with endless
entertainment for many years. It's these same people that made WMS
pins great and it's these people that gave Stern pins any type of
popularity and respect. It's all of you that have made pinball great
for all of these years and here's wishing you all the best !!
Thanks for the memories !!
John
Brian Blonder
Because the hard part is finding any location that WANTS to have a pin
because the most important thing that is lacking is consumer demand. And a
few people from a newsgroup asking an operator to add a machine when his
experience has been negative for years is not going to change the operators
mind. Not when a bunch of teenagers are lined up to play Dance, Dance
Revolution or a bunch of 8 year olds would rather put tons of money into a
redemption machine with games that last 30 seconds for a quarter (why is it
that is OK, but pinball machines have to provide ball times that last
forever in order to be viewed as "worth it"?).
Frankly, without getting into why locations that have historically included
pinball have given up on them, trying to get a location to add a pinball
machine is near impossible. And I'm talking about bowling alleys, bars,
etc. that were traditional locations for pinball.
It's been said many times before, but pinball did well when there was demand
for pinball by the casual PINBALL PLAYERS. There is NO SUCH THING as demand
driven by the manufacturer, operators or locations. Demand for any consumer
product comes from the end user/consumer (the casual pinball players). Yet,
when demand for pinball drops, the industry has always focused on trying to
increase demand via marketing to the operators without any commuication with
the consumer. That's a very simple, foolish viewpoint.
Look at other forms of entertainment. How well would a movie do if the
production folks marketed to the movie theatres convincing them to show the
movie without investing in advertising the movie to the public via TV,
newsprint, internet, etc?
People are always looking for forms of entertainment and inexpensive
entertainment is preferred during dour economic times. Historically pinball
and arcade entertainment have done well during weak economic times because
they are viewed as inexpensive entertainment by consumers.
However, that requires marketing to the end user, not to the operators, not
to the locations, (and not to pinball players such as those on the group who
don't need to be informed about the fact that pinball still exists - where
are like the movie critics who already follow the industry and anticipate
the release of movies - but we are too small of a group to ever create
enough demand from end users).
What percentage of the folks who saw Dark Knight, IJ4, the Shrek movies,
etc.etc. even know that there was a pinball machine made with those themes?
If they knew that a machine had been created, how could they even figure out
where to go to play it since we have so much trouble finding these games on
location and we are maniacs about our attempts to do so? The fewer people
who know of the games existence or know how and where to go play the
licensed game they might like to try out, the more the license is a waste of
money. It may get the operator to buy the game, but it then sits on
location and only those who just happen to come across it discover of its
existence (again too small a group to create enough demand). Net result,
the operator passes on the next license because no one seems to come to the
location specifically to play the licensed game. Even more frightening is
the extent to which today's youth don't even KNOW what a pinball machine is
and/or have heard of them but have never seen one. You can't seek out or
demand something if you don't know that it exists.
It's simple marketing 101. The problem is that Finance 101 also simply
tells us that marketing to end users is very, very expensive and the
industry failed to build up the end user marketing investment pie when times
were good and so, now, the end user base continues to dwindle and there is
no funding or means to recreate customer demand. To repeat for emphasis:
you can't create demand for a product if no one (except the small group of
pinball enthusiasts) knows that the product even exists.
Over the years we've seen many posts that have discussed the above and
offered up ideas for marketing the product to consumers. I can't recall any
examples of the industry implementing any of these ideas, though. It's
probably way too late now and too costly due to the current economic
situation. Too bad, because the current economic situation might be ripe
for a resurgence of this inexpensive form of entertainment (10 to 20 games
or more for the cost of a movie).
- Brian B. (Ethan's Dad)
"PinMan" <vi...@birdsley.com> wrote in message
news:dd7803c3-b36e-42e0...@r37g2000prr.googlegroups.com...
The PinKeeper, AZ
I wanted to add that to my post, but it was long enough already.
LOL !!
That's all i can say is "What Marketing ?"
Out of all the millions of locations out there that can have a pin,
how many actually know what is available ?
Yes, marketing costs money. It costs money for all businesses, but if
done properly, the marketing costs are outweighed by increased sales.
In the 80's and 90's, arcades did'nt need to do anything. It was just
fill a building with machines and "they will come". They did'nt need
to market or advertise anything.
Arcades also failed to keep up with technology and the future, not to
mention their lousy game maintenance issues.
The future of gaming was in networking and multiplayer gaming. This
was extremely obvious to any avid gamer in the late 80's and early
90's.
Once again, give the customer/end user what they want, or your
doomed. This applies to almost every business out there, even one's
that have monopolies on certain products, like Stern pinball machines.
Just my extra two cents.
John
Rare Hero
> That's all i can say is "What Marketing ?"
I would have participated in a "Making of Family Guy Pinball" feature
for one of the DVD sets ....Fox loves putting cheap extras on those
DVDs. A tour of the Stern factory and interviews w/ those involved
would have cost next to nothing. Hell, they could have even done
some simple viral marketing through youtube or something...shown video
of Seth recording his lines for the pinball machine. Well, it's all
in retrospect...but Family Guy gets so much crazy internet
lovin' ...that title could have really gained Stern and pinball more
attention.
Greg
The PinKeeper, AZ
Stern did'nt *uck me out of $4000. I did it to myself.
It was my choice to trust Stern to make a finished product, not
Stern's.
But it is Stern's responsibility to me as a customer, to let me know
that i exist and that they let me down by not finishing the software.
Just a simple post on the RGP, a letter or something on thier website
would be so greatly appreciated. Having to hear it from Keith Johnson
after he gets laidoff is'nt right and it is'nt good customer relations
and is one big reason why Stern has lost my business.
Stern has never recognized me as a customer despite buying 19 NIB pins
in 6 years. Would'nt you want to know who your repeat customers
are ? Is'nt that like common business sense ? It does'nt matter
either that the pins are sold through distributors. I would want to
know every person that was helping me stay in business, would'nt
you ? How much cost and effort does it take to keep a computer
database of Stern customers ? Send us some free flyers, stickers
etc, etc. and maybe a monthly or quarterly newsletter that tells us
about updates, service issues, maintenance issues and other news,
which would make us feel appreciated.
How about a real website with a forum for Stern owners and possible
future owners to go to ? Once again, an obvious modern tool that
is'nt being utilized.
Jack is the greatest and best distributor i've ever talked to. He
goes a long way to keep his customers, but in the end it's Stern that
needs to acknowledge i exist and learn how to keep me happy, because
it's thier product i'm buying.
Anyways... two more cents to the pile, which brings me to 6 cents
worth. LOL !!
John
mattyb
Pinball has ALWAYS used marketing. It's called INNOVATION. An
advancement in the game draws attention, gets people talking, and
ultimately rejunenates the industry. The only advancement Stern has
made(and not deliberately) are deep rules sets(invisible to the casual
player) and even that step forward is being thwarted. The only thing
that can save pinball is a radical change top to bottom. A space age
looking cabinet and P2K technology for starters. And for gods sake,
charge real money! It's no secret that people associate the price of a
thing to it's value. Charge a buck fifty and give them five balls. The
future of pinball is...the future of pinball.(not sure what that means
but it *sounds* deep) :) MattyB
Brian Blonder
"mattyb" <mdbr...@sentara.com> wrote in message
news:429fc2ce-9a81-42d4...@f40g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
A radical change will NOT be the answer if the small group of pinball
enthusiasts
and operators are the only ones who know about it. How would the rest of
the world
find out that pinball has advanced to the next great innovation?
I don't disagree with your point that pinball has stayed essentially the
same for the past 15+ years.
But you have to get peole talking about pinball before you can get them
talking about an innovation
in pinball. How would a teen who has never even seen a pinball know that he
is looking at an advancement?
Oprah playing a 20 year old machine on her show as one of her "favorites"
for 2009 would do far more for pinball sales
then any innovation ever could and I say that as someone who hates to admit
how much power Oprah has.
The PinKeeper, AZ
You nailed it on the head.
Every product has a life cycle.
You either upgrade or improve the product over time or the life cycle
will end and so will your business.
It's pretty obvious if you look at almost anything made in the last 50
years.
Companies deliberately make products with limited features when
starting out. Then they continually add things year after year to
keep sales increasing, but most importantly, giving what the customer/
end user wants.
TV's get bigger and bigger. PC's get faster and faster. Etc, etc,
etc etc... I could go on and on. Is this like something new that
noone knows about ?
People are more than willing to spend thier money, but only if you
listen to them and give them what they want. If you keep offering
them the same thing over and over or go backwards, then how can any
business expect to see sales increase or expect to even stay in
business at all ?
Would'nt you want to know what your customers want to see in your
product ? So you could possibly make it better and create more of a
demand for it. They don't have to listen to us in the end, but
would'nt it at least give them a better idea of how to make or improve
thier next product or whether they should even make it at all if they
can't give thier customers what they want.
Anyways... enough already... i'm up to 8 cents now and i'm
finished.
John
Rare Hero
honestly - it really just comes down to the nature of the arcade/
location and the home videogame market.
I'm a child of the 80's, and I remember the absolute excitement of the
arcade...and even when home consoles came out, the arcades were always
more amazing. Atari 2600 versions of Pac-Man and Donkey Kong? Even
at 7 years old I knew they were garbage - and I always wanted to play
the arcade versions. Even in the NES days - as fun as they were - the
arcades were SO much better. Even as good as Sega Genesis/SNES were,
you STILL wanted to play the arcade SF2 and MK in the arcade. Racing
games were NEVER as good at home. Fast forward to today. The
fighters and racers are better at home, AND you can play against
anyone in the world. There's no excitement to go to arcades, since
arcades have now been trounced by home technology in terms of graphics
and innovation.
What does this have to do w/ Pinball? I would say that pinball's
health is directly related to the video arcade market's health.
Healthy vid market = locations. No wonder the 90's were great for
pinball...that was the Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat decade...and as
that died off, the locations died off.
We all know pinball is fun...I don't think it ever needed reinvention
to survive...it needed to remain in the public eye. Home consoles
killed the arcade, and pinball just became a victim of that.
Greg
Funky Pinaholic
TZ was not a popular route pin. And some of the highest selling pins
of all time don't have deep rulesets.
For a pin to have route success there have to be at least some simple
and easy to understand objectives that a first time or casual player
can pick up right away.
I've got nothing against deep rulesets but deep rulesets don't sell
games to operators.
RTIV
that funds their business. Become more active or be veto'd out!
I also agree to marketing......
The original post mentions his kids would rather play xbox, now please
understand that I am an AVID videogame player and I too have kids,
however when I tell my kids about Pinball I do not just say hey we are
going to play a game where you hit the ball around for a high score.
No I sell it to them...I let my children know we are going to play
what I call Boardgame meets video games, I let them know that each pin
tells a tale both in design and flavor. I let them that like the xbox
it's multi-player and very objective based and not beatable in one
sitting for most.
I say this cause for them I use marketing techniques to get them
jazzed! When the get there they love it and want me to explain how to
play beyond high score.At that point there sucked in.....
So I do believe it is all about how we market pin's. You need to go
out and educate the layman!!!! Any one I meet who has never played
pinball or tells me it is boring, I turn the tables and let them know
the deepness and richness that a lot of pins bring to the table. 99%
of the time they then become addicted and enjoy the art of playing
pinball....
I urge all of you to go out and educate the un-educated!!
Coin-Op Cauldron (Clive)
<Good points snipped>
> So I do believe it is all about how we market pin's. You need to go
> out and educate the layman!!!! Any one I meet who has never played
> pinball or tells me it is boring, I turn the tables and let them know
> the deepness and richness that a lot of pins bring to the table. 99%
> of the time they then become addicted and enjoy the art of playing
> pinball....
I agree. The problem here is it's a catch-22. You can educate people
about pinball, but if they cannot find a pinball to play on location,
they simply cannot play and loose interest quickly.
As Brian pointed out, we've been debating pinball marketing here for
some years and Stern is not listening or cares not to listen. As
unfortunate as it sounds, and as unpleasant as it may appear, you cannot
help those who do not wish to be helped.
Clive
-- The Coin-Op Cauldron --
103 Armistead lane
Easley, SC 29642
(864)238-1707
www.coinopcauldron.com
twilightzonepinball
How about a hybrid pinball/redemption game? Kids love redemption, add
in some pinball skills.
-Tom
Pinball Basics DVD
The PinKeeper, AZ
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, i agree that not ALL successful pins had deep rulesets, but the
majority did and Stern's two most popular pins did also. I don't
think that a deep ruleset is absolutely necessary, but i think that
more than 50% of players and collectors would want one as opposed to
not wanting one and so why not make the majority happy.
Other than rulesets, the games do have to be fun and addicting, but
deeper rulesets offer more speech, sound, animations and longevity and
as far as my personal opinion, the more the better and that's what i
want for my money.
I grew up in the arcades in the 70's and 80's. It all started with
pins like Kiss, Harlem Globetrotters and Spirit of 76 and all the
others. Then Black Knight came along and blew us away with speech and
the magna save. At he same time video games like Defender, Robotron,
Galaga, Donkey kong, Pacman, Asteroids and all th others kept our
interest as well. But pinball was what we all enjoyed the most
because it was'nt some programmed pattern that needed to be figured
out to get high scores. Pinball was more personal and more
challenging. It did'nt matter what you did on the last game or last
week. Your only as good as your last game and the whole thing was a
blast.
Then came along some great games in the late 80's like Funhouse and so
forth, but those games were'nt really all that much different than its
predecessors.
Then came the early 90's and i just about passed out when i saw TAF
and TZ for the first time. Just simply amazing !! It was like
everything that i had ever dreamed of in regards to a pinball machine
coming true. The rest of the 90's did'nt disappoint me in anyway
either. Truely the age of ages when it comes to pinball.
But to each thier own.
TZ was the rave at the arcades i went to, along with TAF.
Everyone was amazed on the new features and technology and we could'nt
stop playing. Always trying to go farther and farther each time we
played. Mode based gameplay with deep rules and all the speech,
sound and animations was just a total overload of fun and excitement
with pinball and that's what kept me interested in pinball. If they
made pins in the 90's like they made them in the 70's and 80's, then
pinball would have lost me a long time ago.
TZ sold over 15,000 and TAF over 20,000 and so they were popular
somewhere.
Thanks for replying. I like hearing other comments and opinions.
It's what this newsgroup is all about. I think it's great to hear
different viewpoints regarding the hobby. Of course i have my own,
but that does'nt mean i don't appreciate what others have to say.
Two more cents from my peanut gallery and that brings me up to a dime.
John
Rare Hero
> How about a hybrid pinball/redemption game? Kids love redemption, add
> in some pinball skills.
Correct me if I'm wrong - but don't all the new Stern's have the
ability to add a ticket dispenser? There...bam. Redemption.
Greg
PeterGEvans
increasing the general public's interest in pinball. Here were my
quick suggestions (some more serious than others). What else can be
done
1. Work with Hollywood to get machines featured in TV Shows and
Movies... make them the cool thing again. One hit show/movie that
features a main character who's a pinball enthusiast and you've
reached another generation of customers.
2. Send a couple games to some of the influential web personalities to
get them talking about them. I suggested sending a machine or two to
Kevin Rose and Alex Albrecht at Diggnation. Also try to get in front
of the TechTV crowd.
3. Develop some no interest payment plans and advertise them like
crazy. Lower the initial cost and expand the home ownership market.
4. Get some pins for sale in stores that also sell video games,
computers, Home theatres. Just having them in sight gets attention
and gets people to start coveting them. I suggested trying to partner
up with the Nebraska Furniture Mart who has stores throughout the
midwest. The rec room specialty stores don't get enough foot
traffic. Target those people with money that just don't know that
they need to buy a pinball machine yet.
5. Give a few games to Obama as a welcome to the White House gift.
If he says that he plays them they will be the next must have product.
6. This is a more radical idea which may not be well accepted by
pinball purists. Make a cabinet that has a monitor for the entire
backglass, generic sides (maybe just have them say Stern Pinball) and
interchangeable playfields. This way you can really go after that
home market. The initial cost is higher because you need to buy the
cabinet, but you can buy additional playfields for a lower cost. Then
every few years you come out with a new generation of cabinet. I know
that you will be losing the cabinet artwork, but honestly how many of
you out there have 3+ pins right beside each other so that you can't
really see the sides anyways.
7. Finally, embrace the video game crowd. Don't view them as a
threat, view them as a marketing tool and a source of secondary
income. Partner up with Crave Entertainment who made the Williams
Pinball Hall of Fame game. Start offering video versions of some of
your pins and get the passion for the game started again. That way
when a kid sees the real thing sitting in a bar he has to pop a couple
quarters in it. Then he sees how much better the real game really is,
and you have a fan for life. This also gives them an extra revenue
source. Do you know how many copies of LOTR pinball they could sell?
That alone could keep them afloat for years to come.
What do you think? Go ahead and tear the ideas apart and come up with
the pros and cons. Let's collectively come up with a marketing scheme
that will be noticed by Stern. This group right here has the
knowledge to reinvent pinball... I guarantee it.
Full Disclosure:
I am a bit of a Pinball Newbie, I'm just about ready to buy my first
home machine. I've spent the last 3 months reading and learning
everything I can about Pinball and the evolution of the technology and
the maintenance involved. I've also been playing as many different
games as I can find. I think I represent an untapped market for
Stern. A 20-something that grew up on video games and now has a job
with expendable income and a desire to fill my new rec room.
Sam
Kids like simple games that end quickly so they can get their redemption
tickets and move on to the next game. I wonder how a pitch & bat
(Slugfest with ticket spitter) would do.
Sam
Sam
sales or just personal opinion? I would think that Stern would rate
POTC as #1.
Sam
Funky Pinaholic
>
> - Show quoted text -
TZs sold the numbers they did because of the sucess of TAF, they
flopped on location in spades though.
TAF is a much easier game to play than TZ. I've got nothing against it
as a route coin winner or a collectors favorite winner.
My favorite games have great flow, and more than anything, that is
what is lacking from many a DMD era pin. Stop the ball on me for 10
seconds to tell some worthless story on the DMD too often and I'll
find another pin to play. That apparently hasn't hurt IJ4s route
prowess, however. :)
BlueMalibu
They do. But there is no practical way to get the game to pay out
tickets in a way that will get the gamblers in training to play them.
The most glaring problem is needing a replay to get a ticket.
Ideally, IMO, you should get a ticket at game start and then another
per so many points. The programming flexibility is not there.
Really, you could hook a ticket machine to transister Qxx that would
drive the knocker and get the same affect as the very limited
functionality currently in the SAM games.
I sent a bunch of ideas on how to improve the ticket system to Stern
last year and talked to Joe Blackwell about it. He thought they were
good ideas but nothing has come of it.
Parker
Rare Hero
> They do. But there is no practical way to get the game to pay out
> tickets in a way that will get the gamblers in training to play them.
> The most glaring problem is needing a replay to get a ticket.
> Ideally, IMO, you should get a ticket at game start and then another
> per so many points. The programming flexibility is not there.
> Really, you could hook a ticket machine to transister Qxx that would
> drive the knocker and get the same affect as the very limited
> functionality currently in the SAM games.
Wait - so...you only get tickets on replays? I'd imagine you'd get
tickets for jackpots, completing a mode, per certain amount of
points...things like that.
Greg
The PinKeeper, AZ
Yes, POTC is right up there too. I love POTC.
John
BlueMalibu
Right...only replays....and not both. 1 Ticket or 1 Replay. Chuck E
Cheese uses the ticket dispensers in pins and awards a "Super Ticket"
worth so many regular tickets. But you have to hit the replay level.
Parker
The PinKeeper, AZ
I've bought 19 NIB Stern pins in less than 6 years.
Which amounts to about $80,000.
Which is equal to going to an arcade and spending $50. a week for 30
years.
Actually, if i was more realistic and went to the arcade every week
and spent $20. (which is alot of pinball playing), it would take me 4
years to get to the cost of buying just 1 NIB Stern pin.
Who cares about the theme, the rules, the gameplay or really anything
at all at that point. The only worry then would be finding the pins
to play.
Geez, it's amazing what some of us will do just to have the pins
inside our homes.
Looks like i could be saving myself alot of money. LOL !!!
John
John Bigbooty
Nobody knows for sure because Stern doesn't release production
numbers. The TSPP and LOTR guess is based on the number of production
runs. POTC was also very successful but in a much shorter period of
time. From the number of runs, HD was pretty successful as well.
Mark
Atlanta GA
Kenbo
<slon...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>You make another great point Brian B.
>
>I wanted to add that to my post, but it was long enough already.
>LOL !!
>
>That's all i can say is "What Marketing ?"
With all these movie themed games you'd think they'd be promoting the
game with short 15-30 second video promos IN THE THEATERS before the
show. Then a local operator could have a shot at having a still promo
offering a few free games with movie ticket stub.
popbumper.com
casual pinball players). Yet, when demand for pinball drops, the
industry has always focused on trying to increase demand via marketing
to the operators without any commuication with the consumer. That's a
very simple, foolish viewpoint."
I think this is one of the most important points I've read on this
subject today. It's so true. When console games were first getting
commercial time on TV, it made an impact. The consumer was ... the
player. So your point is well made, and certainly true.
Not long ago, I was in a diner in the same town we do the Supershow
(Herrin, IL). The restaurant owner has 3 vids and 2 pins. We sat and
ate, played games, and I spoke with the owners as I usually do. These
owners wanted a Batman pinball. They only knew of this game because
they had come to our pinball show and played it. They want it in their
restaurant gameroom and can request it by name. Do you know how rare
that is? Not just the fact that they have a gameroom with pinball ...
but that they even know of a pinball machine by name that they have
never seen? Do you think the operator suggested putting pinball in
their business? Actually, this op is a friend and supports pinball as
good as any non-collector. Still, he knows what makes money. Pinball
to him is an important part of his diverse coin-op business. It's a
small part, but important nonetheless. He too is a rare op.
Back to the point - you are exactly right. I've said this so many
times .... Stern could hire 4 "sales reps" - recent college grads.
Give them a minivan with Stern Pinball plastered all over the
sides ... have them hit the road and promote pinball to every place
they encounter that has games (truck stops, bowling alleys, mall
arcades, etc). Personally visit rural operators so the ops don't have
to drive to distributors. Set up the 2 last titles and let them play
the machines. Have those machines at every grass-roots pinball event
in the country (people complain that the latest Stern titles aren't at
shows). It's probably too little, too late. It should have been going
on for the last 5 years. But ... it's an effort to reach the players
and first-hand promote product to operators that have forgotten about
pinball.
Worth mentioning ... shows like The Price is Right do assist with some
marketing when they give away a pinball machine.
Rob
popbumper.com
> I actually want to clarify one thing in what i wrote earlier.
>
> Stern did'nt *uck me out of $4000. I did it to myself.
>
> It was my choice to trust Stern to make a finished product, not
> Stern's.
>
> But it is Stern's responsibility to me as a customer, to let me know
> that i exist and that they let me down by not finishing the software.
>
> Just a simple post on the RGP, a letter or something on thier website
> would be so greatly appreciated. Having to hear it from Keith Johnson
> after he gets laidoff is'nt right and it is'nt good customer relations
> and is one big reason why Stern has lost my business.
>
> Stern has never recognized me as a customer despite buying 19 NIB pins
> in 6 years. Would'nt you want to know who your repeat customers
> are ? Is'nt that like common business sense ? It does'nt matter
> either that the pins are sold through distributors. I would want to
> know every person that was helping me stay in business, would'nt
> you ? How much cost and effort does it take to keep a computer
> database of Stern customers ? Send us some free flyers, stickers
> etc, etc. and maybe a monthly or quarterly newsletter that tells us
> about updates, service issues, maintenance issues and other news,
> which would make us feel appreciated.
Your points on how Stern has to keep you happy have been made solidly.
I would like to mention that Stern has a lot of people to try and make
happy beyond the collector. I polled a local operator on software
updates - he doesn't do them unless they fix something in the game
that was broken. Deep rulesets mean nothing to him. He wants the games
to be harder and more old-school non-mode oriented. But he still
supports pinball by buying a dozen a year for a small route.
You mention the evolution of technology, something that has been
killing the arcades since the early 80's. People have an arcade in
their home by just have a modern console. How can pinball evolve
technologically and still be mechanical - not virtual? You can pop in
an LCD display, you could put a stereo sound system in there, but what
can you really do to the playfield to make it evolve? Pin2K was great,
and it was surely a modern evolution in the game. And without NuCore,
those machines will be obsolete before their previous titles will. It
was costly. And today, does not allow any manufacturer to move into
that direction since it was heavily patented (and those are still
active). I'm interested in hearing ideas from anyone on the evolution
of the machine. Where should it go? And how do we / they build it
economically?
Add 2 of my cents into your pile ... eventually we'll be able to play
a game of pinball!
Rob
popbumper.com
Distributors too. They are 100% in agreement with you.
cch...@comcast.net
shows.
Pins market themselves to the public by the advertising on the
backglass, cabinet and playfield. If the machine is there, people will
play it. Virtually everyone who plays a pinball machine enjoys it.
-If-
The machine WORKS properly. Operators have let pinball repair skills
lapse. This is paramount to keeping pinballs earning on route.
In reality, marketing is simply not needed. It wasn't needed in the
good times for pins, and it isn't needed now. What is needed is
operators that are commited to providing quality experiences for the
p[l]aying public.
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
On Nov 7, 12:30 pm, "Brian Blonder" <bblon...@cox.net> wrote:
> "mattyb" <mdbri...@sentara.com> wrote in message
>
> news:429fc2ce-9a81-42d4...@f40g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 7, 12:30 pm, "The PinKeeper, AZ" <slones...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > You make another great point Brian B.
>
> > I wanted to add that to my post, but it was long enough already.
> > LOL !!
>
> > That's all i can say is "What Marketing ?"
>
> > Out of all the millions of locations out there that can have a pin,
> > how many actually know what is available ?
>
> > Yes, marketing costs money. It costs money for all businesses, but if
> > done properly, the marketing costs are outweighed by increased sales.
>
> > In the 80's and 90's, arcades did'nt need to do anything. It wasjust
> > fill a building with machines and "they will come". They did'nt need
> > to market or advertise anything.
>
> > Arcades also failed to keep up with technology and the future, not to
> > mention their lousy game maintenance issues.
>
> > The future of gaming was in networking and multiplayer gaming. This
> > was extremely obvious to any avid gamer in the late 80's and early
> > 90's.
>
> > Once again, give the customer/end user what they want, or your
> > doomed. This applies to almost every business out there, even one's
> > that have monopolies on certain products, like Stern pinball machines.
>
> >Justmy extra two cents.
> - Brian B. (Ethan's Dad)- Hide quoted text -
Les Manley
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would *ABSOLUTELY* agree with the statement that Stern does a
horrible job of marketing. They market to the die hard group in die
hard pin magazines and at die hard pin shows. Then they create a
product that is too simple for many of the same die hards they are
marketing to, leave the software on the games incomplete and say we
should be pumping coins in games on route instead of buying our own
games. They are pissing off the only group they are marketing to and
they are lucky there are a few people out there who will blindly
support them and look past their faults and not call it like it is. I
would argue they don't need to market to "us" as we will seek out and
find out the information anyway, market to the people who will not
otherwise find out! They should market more mainstream. Anything,
even a television commerical, newspaper ad, internet advertising for
God's sake...anything. Outside this group, I would wager that 99.99%
of the population of MN does not even know a Dark Knight pinball
exists. If they do not know it is there, they are obviously not going
to get excited about it, inquire about it or seek it out to play.
More and more people today are not simply going to run into games
anymore, you need to want to play them to find them. The theaters by
my house have a broke down Elivs...yeah big winner for a younger movie
theater and the other theater has all old games with the exception of
a RCT and *no one* outside this group and many inside it, have any
interest in playing that. Back in the day, arcades were everywhere.
You didn't need advertising because every mall had an arcade and they
would get all the newest stuff. Hell, most of the time I found out a
game had come out just by seeing it, I didn't even know it was coming
out. That doesn't happen anymore, you have to get the people
interested if you can and make them want it and ask for it. Stern
needs to let the average person know that pinball still exists today,
as most people probably don't even realize that. If people went to
movie theaters and asked the managers for Dark Knight or pinball in
general, they would bring it in, but as far as they know, no one cares
so why bother?
mnpinball
> On Nov 7, 4:32 pm, cchu...@comcast.net wrote:
This was a great showing to Comic-Con (of course software was
infantile).
Regardless, Spidey and Family Guy should have been there as well.
http://www.sternpinball.com/PR_073008.shtml
I have told Joe Blackwell over the years to get a single small insert
of the particular game put in the DVD release.
This has got to be the best possible way to directly target the
interest to that theme.
POTC, Batman, Spider-Man, Family Guy box sets and so on.
Don't know what the cost would be for a small 3x5" insert but DVD's
have them in there all the time.
I would think a few cents would all it would be. All it would need to
have is a pic of the game and the website to be directed to.
mnpinball
I think this was good exposure.
spike
UK, a new Stern pin now costs $6,320.
It's really hard to find anywhere here to put money into a pinball
machine. I would hazard a guess and say there are less than 500
pinball machines set up for taking money in the UK.
What a shame Stern did not take some of the free marketing and
promotional ideas from RGP and run with them. It may now be too late.
Times change, new generations come along. Maybe ;-) one day the
Nintendo Wii will seem 'old hat'
Spike, Nottingham, Robin Hood Land >-->
slingshot
storyline. Video games are not so much focused on scoring anymore - its
more about progressing through a story. Pins still focus largely on
scoring. I guess I'm envisioning a larger display capable of capturing the
eye of not only who is playing, but others just hanging around. As you
progress, you see new cooler things. You progress through the story and
want to see what comes next. I have fond memories of standing around
watching others try to make it through Dragon's Lair... and waiting for my
turn to see if I could do it. I know some pins do this today, but the
display effects are not cool compared to the latest vid. My kid's
calculator has a better display than my black spidey. I can't help but
think IJ4 would be much cooler with full color movie scenes instead of the
regular DMD.
I'm not advocating blowing off the playfield and just focusing only on
display effects.... just adding something that isn't there now. Keep the
cool playfield stuff but bring in the rest of the crowd with the storyline
and display.
I know I'm not articulating this very well (its beer time in Dallas)... just
thinking out loud really.
Craig
"popbumper.com" <popb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fc8a8ec-07f1-41a5...@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
cch...@comcast.net
> horrible job of marketing. They market to the die hard group in die
> hard pin magazines and at die hard pin shows.
You are completely incorrect. Stern does not market to players or
collectors. They market to distributors who then sell to operators.
> Then they create a
> product that is too simple for many of the same die hards they are
> marketing to, leave the software on the games incomplete and say we
> should be pumping coins in games on route instead of buying our own
> games.
Generally, operators don't care about simple or complex, or "finished"
software. Neither do casual players. The only thing that matters is
does it earn money for the op and does it provide entertainment for
the player. The stuff you are harping on make no difference to the
industry. NONE.
> They are pissing off the only group they are marketing to and
> they are lucky there are a few people out there who will blindly
> support them and look past their faults and not call it like it is.
They...don't...market...to...players...or...colectors. Please let that
sink in because you are not getting it.
> I
> would argue they don't need to market to "us" as we will seek out and
> find out the information anyway, market to the people who will not
> otherwise find out! They should market more mainstream. Anything,
> even a television commerical, newspaper ad, internet advertising for
> God's sake...anything. Outside this group, I would wager that 99.99%
> of the population of MN does not even know a Dark Knight pinball
> exists.
It...doesn't...matter. Marketing to the general public through paid
advertising will not help. There is a reason no manufacturer ever did.
It will not generate enough sells to pay for itself, let alone
generate new income.
> If they do not know it is there, they are obviously not going
> to get excited about it, inquire about it or seek it out to play.
Never did, never will. The casual player is marketed to by the
presentation of the game itself. That is how coin op works. It is up
to the op to place the game where people are.
> More and more people today are not simply going to run into games
> anymore, you need to want to play them to find them. The theaters by
> my house have a broke down Elivs...yeah big winner for a younger movie
> theater and the other theater has all old games with the exception of
> a RCT and *no one* outside this group and many inside it, have any
> interest in playing that.
If the games were in good condition, people would play them. Those
aren't brand new games. Obviously they earned some money or they
wouldn't still be in the bullpen.
> Back in the day, arcades were everywhere.
> You didn't need advertising because every mall had an arcade and they
> would get all the newest stuff. Hell, most of the time I found out a
> game had come out just by seeing it, I didn't even know it was coming
> out.
My point exactly.
> That doesn't happen anymore, you have to get the people
> interested if you can and make them want it and ask for it.
If you think that is how coin op works, you need to do more research.
> Stern
> needs to let the average person know that pinball still exists today,
> as most people probably don't even realize that. If people went to
> movie theaters and asked the managers for Dark Knight or pinball in
> general, they would bring it in, but as far as they know, no one cares
> so why bother?- Hide quoted text -
So you think people will see an ad on TV and then go bug a theater to
get a pinball machine? No way. They will either see a pin and play it,
or not see one and don't. No amount of marketing is going to change
that.
It is up to the ops to place the games. That's the skinny.
-cody
--CARGPB4
On Nov 7, 5:00 pm, Les Manley <inet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> so why bother?- Hide quoted text -
Les Manley
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I couldn't disagree with you more. If you think that a functioning
game is the only thing holding people back from playing pinball, you
are way off base. Casual players don't care about weak flippers and
broken plastics, they only want to knock the ball around for a
minute...remember? If the game functions, they don't know the
difference, and pins almost always *function* to some degree, they
just don't play correctly for the gamer who knows what to look for.
The customer base is gone and is not coming back anytime soon. The
only people who care about pinball now are us and most of us do care
about rule sets, complete code and a challenge, as is apparent by all
the complaining. Years ago, no one had to advertise before because
the games were everywhere, you couldn't miss them if you wanted to.
People knew the games were there whether they cared or not and if they
wanted to play them they could go to any mall, bowling alley or bar
and play away. They...didn't...need....to...market...anything. Times
are WAY different. If you think I am so off base and that Stern
doesn't need to advertise, just look at how "good" they are doing now
to see the fact that, that ain't working. People are not playing
pins, period. People don't even know pinball exists. That is not
going to change *ever* unless; number one people realize that pinball
still exists and number two, people have an interest in pinball
again. Both those things are *not* happening currently. The only way
to change this is to get the word out to the masses in more mainstream
fashion then just word of mouth. You can't tell me that a Family Guy
fan that saw a flyer in their DVD set for the pinball machine would
not be at least a little curious and want to check it out for the most
part. That same potential play currently has no idea this machine
even exists today. They are missing the boat and great promotional
opportunities by not marketing the games with the huge licenses they
pay so much for anyway. Case in point IJ4 and Dark Knight. Two huge
movies come out. Not ONE theater by me had the pin to utilize the
license. Not one promotion to tie in with the movie
anywhere....nothing! The best opportunities in the world, completely
wasted, it was free publicity with how well those movies did! You
can't play it if you don't see it and you don't know it is there, the
best license in the world won't help you there. What you said about
how the industry "works" may have been true in the past when you could
hardly go wrong no matter what you did in the industry, but that time
has long since come and gone. With that attitude you might as well
help Stern start packing up the warehouse right now cause they'd have
zero chance. You have to adapt to the industry with the times or go
out of business and Stern right now is on it's way to doing the
later...
cch...@comcast.net
> > read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I couldn't disagree with you more.
I don't think either of our opinions are going to change, either.
> If you think that a functioning
> game is the only thing holding people back from playing pinball, you
> are way off base.
No, I said the thing holding back players is the games not being
placed by operators. Apparently you think by advertising to the
general public that ops will buy and place more games. I don't.
> Casual players don't care about weak flippers and
> broken plastics, they only want to knock the ball around for a
> minute...remember?
I was talking about game-killers. Non-functional flippers or ejects,
broken rings...things that cause ball hangups or ripoffs.
> If the game functions, they don't know the
> difference, and pins almost always *function* to some degree, they
> just don't play correctly for the gamer who knows what to look for.
> The customer base is gone and is not coming back anytime soon.
So you think the biggest payers are hardcore gamers? The casual player
is still there, passing by, every day. If the pin was there too, the
people would play it. It has been reported here that the latest Sterns
are earning well (without advertising). That proves people still like
to play pinball when they see it. It has always been an impulse
product.
> The
> only people who care about pinball now are us and most of us do care
> about rule sets, complete code and a challenge, as is apparent by all
> the complaining. Years ago, no one had to advertise before because
> the games were everywhere, you couldn't miss them if you wanted to.
> People knew the games were there whether they cared or not and if they
> wanted to play them they could go to any mall, bowling alley or bar
> and play away. They...didn't...need....to...market...anything. Times
> are WAY different. If you think I am so off base and that Stern
> doesn't need to advertise, just look at how "good" they are doing now
> to see the fact that, that ain't working.
It is not Stern's fault that operators don't choose to place as many
pins as they do. They earn well and are pretty dependable, but still
the ops neglect them and turn off players. Operators have been leaving
pins to rot on route and now the rot is spreading.
> People are not playing
> pins, period.
Categorically wrong.
> People don't even know pinball exists.
When they see one, they sure do.
> That is not
> going to change *ever* unless; number one people realize that pinball
> still exists and number two, people have an interest in pinball
> again. Both those things are *not* happening currently.
Because the operators are still clinging to videos. They spoiled
themselves on 'em and let their pin stock shrink away and let the
maintenance skills lapse. Now they have a shrinking video base due to
home consoles, and techs that can't repair pins because they have
little to no experience doing it. So the pin base shrinks further due
to neglect.
> The only way
> to change this is to get the word out to the masses in more mainstream
> fashion then just word of mouth. You can't tell me that a Family Guy
> fan that saw a flyer in their DVD set for the pinball machine would
> not be at least a little curious and want to check it out for the most
> part.
Sure, but I would bet 98 people out of a hundred would never mention
it to a theater owner or whomever else. Nobody will confront someone
like that asking for a pinball to play, IMO. People like us might, but
advertising is wasted on us anyway.
> That same potential play currently has no idea this machine
> even exists today. They are missing the boat and great promotional
> opportunities by not marketing the games with the huge licenses they
> pay so much for anyway. Case in point IJ4 and Dark Knight. Two huge
> movies come out. Not ONE theater by me had the pin to utilize the
> license. Not one promotion to tie in with the movie
> anywhere....nothing!
Most theaters have a contract with a local op for their games.
> The best opportunities in the world, completely
> wasted, it was free publicity with how well those movies did! You
> can't play it if you don't see it and you don't know it is there, the
> best license in the world won't help you there. What you said about
> how the industry "works" may have been true in the past when you could
> hardly go wrong no matter what you did in the industry, but that time
> has long since come and gone. With that attitude you might as well
> help Stern start packing up the warehouse right now cause they'd have
> zero chance. You have to adapt to the industry with the times or go
> out of business and Stern right now is on it's way to doing the
> later...
Stern is making games that earn money. All the ops have to do is put
them in front of people to play. It is not Stern's fault your operator
doesn't choose to place more machines, and advertising isn't going to
change that. Flushing money down an advertising toilet is not what the
industry needs, because it simply isn't necessary. All that is needed
is for the games to be placed, maintained and rotated. They are their
own advertising, and if they are there, people will play wether they
are marketed to or not.
-cody
--CARGPB4
Hammer5550
> Why don't guys with a passion put a game on location...
>
> Because the hard part is finding any location that WANTS to have a pin
> because the most important thing that is lacking is consumer demand. And a
> few people from a newsgroup asking an operator to add a machine when his
> experience has been negative for years is not going to change the operators
> mind. Not when a bunch of teenagers are lined up to play Dance, Dance
> Revolution or a bunch of 8 year olds would rather put tons of money into a
> redemption machine with games that last 30 seconds for a quarter (why is it
> that is OK, but pinball machines have to provide ball times that last
> forever in order to be viewed as "worth it"?).
>
> Frankly, without getting into why locations that have historically included
> pinball have given up on them, trying to get a location to add a pinball
> machine is near impossible. And I'm talking about bowling alleys, bars,
> etc. that were traditional locations for pinball.
>
> It's been said many times before, but pinball did well when there was demand
> for pinball by the casual PINBALL PLAYERS. There is NO SUCH THING as demand
> driven by the manufacturer, operators or locations. Demand for any consumer
> product comes from the end user/consumer (the casual pinball players). Yet,
> when demand for pinball drops, the industry has always focused on trying to
> increase demand via marketing to the operators without any commuication with
> the consumer. That's a very simple, foolish viewpoint.
>
> production folks marketed to the movie theatres convincing them to show the
> movie without investing in advertising the movie to the public via TV,
> newsprint, internet, etc?
>
> People are always looking for forms of entertainment and inexpensive
> entertainment is preferred during dour economic times. Historically pinball
> and arcade entertainment have done well during weak economic times because
> they are viewed as inexpensive entertainment by consumers.
>
> However, that requires marketing to the end user, not to the operators, not
> to the locations, (and not to pinball players such as those on the group who
> don't need to be informed about the fact that pinball still exists - where
> are like the movie critics who already follow the industry and anticipate
> the release of movies - but we are too small of a group to ever create
> enough demand from end users).
>
> What percentage of the folks who saw Dark Knight, IJ4, the Shrek movies,
> etc.etc. even know that there was a pinball machine made with those themes?
> If they knew that a machine had been created, how could they even figure out
> where to go to play it since we have so much trouble finding these games on
> location and we are maniacs about our attempts to do so? The fewer people
> who know of the games existence or know how and where to go play the
> licensed game they might like to try out, the more the license is a waste of
> money. It may get the operator to buy the game, but it then sits on
> location and only those who just happen to come across it discover of its
> existence (again too small a group to create enough demand). Net result,
> the operator passes on the next license because no one seems to come to the
> location specifically to play the licensed game. Even more frightening is
> the extent to which today's youth don't even KNOW what a pinball machine is
> and/or have heard of them but have never seen one. You can't seek out or
> demand something if you don't know that it exists.
>
> It's simple marketing 101. The problem is that Finance 101 also simply
> tells us that marketing to end users is very, very expensive and the
> industry failed to build up the end user marketing investment pie when times
> were good and so, now, the end user base continues to dwindle and there is
> no funding or means to recreate customer demand. To repeat for emphasis:
> you can't create demand for a product if no one (except the small group of
> pinball enthusiasts) knows that the product even exists.
>
> Over the years we've seen many posts that have discussed the above and
> offered up ideas for marketing the product to consumers. I can't recall any
> examples of the industry implementing any of these ideas, though. It's
> probably way too late now and too costly due to the current economic
> situation. Too bad, because the current economic situation might be ripe
> for a resurgence of this inexpensive form of entertainment (10 to 20 games
> or more for the cost of a movie).
>
> - Brian B. (Ethan's Dad)
>
>
> news:dd7803c3-b36e-42e0...@r37g2000prr.googlegroups.com...
> Maybe this is a novel idea... but why don't guys with a) passion and
> knowledge of pinball, and b) enough money to put it where there mouth
> is start some routes and have GOOD WORKING & UP TO DATE pins on
> location, so maybe as a whole pinball can generate some new interest
> and attract people to actually put quarters in a game on location?
> Better yet have them come back and play the game again because it
> worked perfectly and they had fun?
>
> On Nov 6, 11:49 pm, mnpinball <mnpinb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 6, 11:00 pm, "Magic Mike" <spiderma...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > > >... no demand, no product, no ability to make payroll.
>
> > > Since Gary has stated that he doesn't make his products for collectors,
> > > I don't see how collectors can be to blame for Stern's business drop.
> > > Bottom line, listen & pay attention to your all of your customers
> > > regardless of what percentage they give your business.
>
> > > Mike
>
> > Among the obvious factors of economy and the dwindling location
> > pinball factor there are many reasons for pinballs demise which I will
> > list in no particular order.
>
> > 1. Location play is at an all time low.
> > Factors are pinball has been on the steady decline since the late
> > 90's.
> > Ever since the home gaming took a foothold it's simple, kids and this
> > generation don't leave home.
> > I have a building full of pins and my kids rather would play x-box and
> > the newest PC game like Fallout 3 with a buddy.
> > Internet gaming is huge. My kids rarely play pinball unless there is
> > a party here.
>
> > 2.Theme has alot to do with it. Stern's demise was WoF, I liked the
> > gameplay as many others voiced as well but the theme just turned off
> > so many that it was a dud out the door before release. The talk on rgp
> > before it's release was horrible. Don't get me wrong I gave it a
> > chance and loved it as well but even I had to sell it to fund another
> > Stern.
>
> > 3.Rules and depth of a game have progressively gone to much to the
> > home and die hard player.
> > This is a double edge sword. The home player may want a deeper
> > ruleset for longetivity but it can almost kill a game for the
> > resources it takes to finish the game. Take for instance WoF. This
> > was a massive code nightmare and the time and resources to finish the
> > game were just to much to bear.
>
> > 4.Code and the finished product.
> > I recently got a NASCAR from an operator. I always update the code and
> > ROMS when I get a game.
> > This game straight from route and it had v1.02 ROMS, a broken test car
> > coil bracket and a few other issues. I ordered up the current ROMS
> > which were v4.50 and installed them and repaired the bracket. The new
> > ROMS also take in account to be nicer to the test car bracket. The
> > point is the bigger ops on location DO NOT update pins. Games play
> > better and get better overall revenue from a top condition "proper"
> > playing game. It's important that the pin releases with code that
> > offers complete modes and inserts working out the door to receive the
> > best possible chance of succeeding. The majority of bigger ops DO NOT
> > update code. LTG and SS Billiards are a different kind of business
> > that "cater" to the pinball player. Lloyd updates games.
>
> > 5.I for one really like IJ4 as do many of my pinball friends. It's not
> > the deepest game obviously but it's alot of fun.
> > Batman had the problem of coming out 2 months after IJ4. many
> > operators had used the funds of buying IJ4's and had a tough time
> > purchasing another new game or 2 within months of release. Timing was
> > just bad. It was a matter of to much to soon.
>
> > Pinball needs to get back to some basics and more understandable
> > rules. There is room for easier games and deeper games. Theme does
> > put restrictions on where to go and I believe non licenced themes are
> > also just as capable of doing well if not better in some instances.
You hit then nail right on the head with your statement! Most people I
talk to don't even know they still make pinball machines, let alone
even see one to play. I myself would love to play a IJ4 or BDK but
have never even seen one, I was lucky the bowling ally has a SM so I
can at least play that. Your right about the marketing, I am sure ops
would forgo marketing straight to them if it would be transferred to
the consumer and increase their sales, and earning due to more
exposure to the public.
The PinKeeper, AZ
If that is how operators feel, then they are completely wrong and i
have 20 years worth of thousands of products and businesses that prove
they are wrong.
It's that type of "stone age" thinking will ruin a product or
business. Just because something works for even 30-40 years, does'nt
mean it will last forever. At some point changes have to be made or
your done for.
People always have and always will want MORE, not less. As soon as
you stop offering them MORE, then you'll start losing business and
eventually you'll be out of business.
That's why thousands of products and thousands of businesses have to
continually make changes and ADD On to what they already offer to
thier customers. Not take things away or keep things the same.
I could go on and on and list all of the thousands of products that
have had to improve over time to keep up with demands of the paying
customer, but i ask anyone reading this to just sit back and think of
just about everything you see and use each and everyday and think of
how it has changed over the years. Some changes maybe did'nt make
the product better or maybe even made it worse, but it was still done
because the company that produced that product knew that they had to
at least try or thier product would become outdated and stagnant to
consumers.
Even stuff like toilet paper and tooth brushes have made constant
improvements over time to offer and give MORE to its customers.
How about casinos. Some casinos in Vegas were in business for 40-50
years and at one time had been some of the most popular and glamorous
places to go, but it was these same casinos that failed to expand and
offer more to thier customers that eventually led to them being old,
outdated and despite so many, many years of success, they were the
first to be imploded and torn down to build the new casino that was
going to give the customer what they want.
It was the foresight of the future by casino owners like Steve Wynn
and others like him that led to a huge success and explosion of
business in Vegas. It only happened because they got rid of the old
way of doing things and developed thier new businesses to accomadate
what the customer wanted. Which was BIGGER, BETTER and MORE. Any
casino that made these neccessary changes is still in business and the
one's that defied the future and stuck to thier ancient way of
thinking are gone forever or soon to be and it did'nt matter how
successful they had once been.
Look at all of the changes that have been made to slot machines. A
gambling entertainment device, but a entertainment device
nonetheless. They went from being a metal box with a lever to wildly
popular interactive video games where the gambling part is almost
forgotten by the customer putting thier money in it.
The future will lead to changes whether you like it or not. The more
you try to fight it, the farther you'll be left behind.
When it comes to Pinball. Besides the playfield being able to have
more various features and additions made to it, it's the RULESET that
gives the product the opportunity to offer MORE to the customer. A
deeper ruleset has the ability to offer more speech, sound and
animations to the customers experience and it adds longevity to the
customer wanting to come back and see MORE the next time they play.
The MORE you offer the customer, the MORE they will want to come back
and the MORE money you will make.
This is just common business sense to me, and once again, there are
thousands and thousands of products and businesses that must follow
these same principals to be and remain successful.
How many operators actually know what thier customers want ? How
many actually do surveys or talk to thier customers ? In my 35
years of going to arcades, i've never been spoken to by an operator
unlesss it was an actual business owner that worked daily in his
business. Like a pizza place, pool hall or bar. Then i actually
met the owner/operator in person and developed a customer/owner
relationship and they would always ask us about the games and we would
tell them what games we liked or disliked and what needed to be fixed
and so forth.
Otherwise, the majority of operators are nothing but vending companies
that have machines out on location in numerous places and the only
time they come around is every week or two or even longer to empty the
cash box. No updates, no repairs, no maintenance and no customer
relations. But yet your telling me that they know what i want and
they know what pinball needs ?
Unfortunately, Stern has placed thier trust and business success and
future in the hands of these same vending machine operators that fail
the customer and in the end ultimately fail the product by being
outdated and unaware of what the customer wants and what is needed to
keep up with customers demands and offering MORE.
We live in a world where it's pretty obvious that people always want
MORE and MORE and MORE. Give them what they want or they will give
you LESS in return.
I think the DMD could have easily been utilized better. Gamers are
and have ALWAYS been obsessed with "GRAPHICS". Is this like top
secret information ? *ucking duh !! Bring the pin displays into
the future and modern era and make them better and the improved
graphics alone will make people want to play and see more. So damn
obvious it's sickening. The biggest gaming obsession and demand for
the last 20 years has been better and better GRAPHICS, GRAPHICS,
GRAPHICS.
As far as what could have saved pinball in the 90's and kept WMS in
business and therefore if WMS kept making pins, would there even be a
Stern Pinball ? Another subject for another time.
Well, as i said before, i have been an avid gamer on every platform my
entire life and it was obvious in the early 90's that the new wave of
gaming that was coming was multiplayer gaming and the internet.
I personally don't feel that P2000 was the way to go. At that point
in time commerical video games had already started to see a major
decline. At least the type of video game component they put into
P2000 pins. To me, the P2000 video game component is too much like a
Space Invaders type game. The various video screen objects just sit
there or move back and forth and you shoot the ball at it instead of
shooting a laser. I give them alot of credit for trying but i can
see why WMS did'nt want to persue it any longer. Don't get me wrong,
i like RFM for being unique and very cool looking and it's still fun,
i just don't think it was the right idea to save pinball.
So my question is... Is there or could there have been a way to make
Pinball a multiplayer type game ??????
Multiplayer games are the only thing keeping video games alive and
they are extremely successful and popular with sales in the billions.
Arcade video game manufacturers tried to make multiplayer games that
either featured head to head or four player action, but the gameplay
was just too much of the same stuff that had already been seen for
many years. Games like Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter and X-men
offered some multiplayer fun for awhile but it gets really old, really
quick. Some of the games i see coming out now in the arcades are
just rehashed ideas that don't hold much interest or fun as far as i'm
concerned. I don't see many kids liking them and i certainly don't
as an adult. That's why kids are gravitating towards redemption
games and other interactive games like the dance and snowboarding
games.
I also find that most arcade games are just nothing but cheap remakes
of what is and has already been available on the consoles and pc's for
years and years. The Need for Speed racing games are totally awesome
on the pc, but completely suck ass at the arcades. Even games like
Madden football, Tiger Woods golf and many others, are way better
versions on the consoles and pc's than what is offered in the arcade.
Throw in the cost factors for each one and being able to stay safe at
home, and you can easily see why arcades struggle.
I think if there was anything to be done, it was suppose to have been
done 10+ years ago and now it's too late since the home market gaming
industry has completely taken over and with the recent years
advancement with Xbox Live and PS3 Live, the opportunity to offer
internet, multiplayer gaming on location has pretty much been missed.
Arcades needed to be turned into internet, multiplayer gaming
locations 10-15 years ago for the masses of gamers out there before it
became so for the homes. Only a major video game company could pull
something like that off now, but now that it is accepted as a home
activity, why would they try to change. I do see multiplayer gaming
competitions taking place live on tv sometimes and i can't help but
wonder what could have been if that same idea was started back in the
90's with the early multiplayer games like Command and Conquer,
Warcraft, Diablo, Starcraft, Doom, Madden, etc, etc, etc... I know my
friends and i would have eagerly paid to compete on location. Pretty
much every other gamer i knew would have also.
Most operators in the 70's and 80's did'nt listen and communicate with
us customers/gamers then and they still don't now. Broken, dirty
piece of *hit games is what i have experienced in every arcade i've
ever been in, which is one reason why i or anyone else i know does'nt
even bother to go to one anymore. It's also why we buy games for our
homes.
But yet, operators know what i want ?
We were all smart as kids when it came to games too. We noticed every
single broken game. Hell, a burnt out light on a pin use to piss me
off. Stuff like weak flippers or bad rollover switches or inactive
pop bumpers would prevent me from putting any more money in once it
stole my first quarter.
The one is use to love the most was the piece of *hit operator that
use to have pins with weak flippers and had the table slope set at
like 10.0. Thanks buddy !!
Well, after all that i have written and YES, i wrote way too much, but
does anyone actually think it's a surprise that arcades have declined
or failed ?
Does anyone not understand my reasoning behind deeper rulesets and
improved displays that showcase those deeeper rules with more speech,
sound, animations and graphics being able to offer MORE to the player,
new or old ?
The only operators i see making it in today's world are owner/
operators that offer a "primary" product that brings in alot of
business and that leads to thier customers playing any pins or video
games they might have to offer. Still at that point, it still has to
be a game that offers MORE and MORE each time you play and will make
you want to play it again the next time as opposed to just ignoring it
and eating more pizza, drinking more beer, or watching the game on the
tv instead.
I think there are alot of great business owner/operators out there
that try to do a great job and give thier customers what they want and
try to keep pinball alive, but i think the majority are nothing but
vending machine companies that are only in it for the cash box and
they don't really give a crap about pin players and Stern Pinball at
all, but yet Stern puts thier business future in thier hands.
Sorry if you disagree or if i offended anyone, but that's what i have
seen being an avid all around gamer for my entire life. I've owned
every single gaming console going all the way back to Pong in the
early 70's and i've owned a pc and have been a pc gamer for more than
20 years. I've also owned over 60 pins and spent years and years in
the arcades. For whatever that's worth.
Well, that's it !!! I just added a hell of alot more than two
cents. I think i'm up to a quarter now. LOL !!
John
Steve Charland
>> If that is how operators feel, then they are completely wrong and i
> have 20 years worth of thousands of products and businesses that prove
> they are wrong.
Oye, a lot to go through here. Keep in mind that many operators/
collectors today, once were players of yesterday.
> It's that type of "stone age" thinking will ruin a product or
> business. Just because something works for even 30-40 years, does'nt
> mean it will last forever. At some point changes have to be made or
> you're done for.
>
> People always have and always will want MORE, not less. As soon as
> you stop offering them MORE, then you'll start losing business and
> eventually you'll be out of business.
More options to the player means less to the operator as motivation to
keep pinball alive.
> That's why thousands of products and thousands of businesses have to
> continually make changes and ADD On to what they already offer to
> thier customers. Not take things away or keep things the same.
>
> I could go on and on and list all of the thousands of products that
> have had to improve over time to keep up with demands of the paying
> customer, but i ask anyone reading this to just sit back and think of
> just about everything you see and use each and everyday and think of
> how it has changed over the years. Some changes maybe did'nt make
> the product better or maybe even made it worse, but it was still done
> because the company that produced that product knew that they had to
> at least try or thier product would become outdated and stagnant to
> consumers.
>
> Even stuff like toilet paper and tooth brushes have made constant
> improvements over time to offer and give MORE to its customers.
>
> How about casinos. Some casinos in Vegas were in business for 40-50
> years and at one time had been some of the most popular and glamorous
> places to go, but it was these same casinos that failed to expand and
> offer more to thier customers that eventually led to them being old,
> outdated and despite so many, many years of success, they were the
> first to be imploded and torn down to build the new casino that was
> going to give the customer what they want
I'm more concerned withh pinball in general but I see where you're
heading.
> It was the foresight of the future by casino owners like Steve Wynn
> and others like him that led to a huge success and explosion of
> business in Vegas. It only happened because they got rid of the old
> way of doing things and developed thier new businesses to accomadate
> what the customer wanted. Which was BIGGER, BETTER and MORE. Any
> casino that made these neccessary changes is still in business and the
> one's that defied the future and stuck to thier ancient way of
> thinking are gone forever or soon to be and it did'nt matter how
> successful they had once been.
>
> Look at all of the changes that have been made to slot machines. A
> gambling entertainment device, but a entertainment device
> nonetheless. They went from being a metal box with a lever to wildly
> popular interactive video games where the gambling part is almost
> forgotten by the customer putting thier money in it.
>
> The future will lead to changes whether you like it or not. The more
> you try to fight it, the farther you'll be left behind.
>
> When it comes to Pinball. Besides the playfield being able to have
> more various features and additions made to it, it's the RULESET that
> gives the product the opportunity to offer MORE to the customer. A
> deeper ruleset has the ability to offer more speech, sound and
> animations to the customers experience and it adds longevity to the
> customer wanting to come back and see MORE the next time they play.
>
> The MORE you offer the customer, the MORE they will want to come back
> and the MORE money you will make.
Here, you lose me. More is offered to the end user, not the operator.
A operator can't make more money on a game that can be played for
hours with little investment by a good player.
> This is just common business sense to me, and once again, there are
> thousands and thousands of products and businesses that must follow
> these same principals to be and remain successful.
Except, with the case of pinball, you can't keep giving the farm away
to the end user.
> How many operators actually know what thier customers want ? How
> many actually do surveys or talk to thier customers ? In my 35
> years of going to arcades, i've never been spoken to by an operator
> unlesss it was an actual business owner that worked daily in his
> business. Like a pizza place, pool hall or bar. Then i actually
> met the owner/operator in person and developed a customer/owner
> relationship and they would always ask us about the games and we would
> tell them what games we liked or disliked and what needed to be fixed
> and so forth.
Many operators *do* know what the players want because they once were
players too.
> Otherwise, the majority of operators are nothing but vending companies
> that have machines out on location in numerous places and the only
> time they come around is every week or two or even longer to empty the
> cash box. No updates, no repairs, no maintenance and no customer
> relations. But yet your telling me that they know what I want and
> they know what pinball needs?
Yep, see above.
> Unfortunately, Stern has placed thier trust and business success and
> future in the hands of these same vending machine operators that fail
> the customer and in the end ultimately fail the product by being
> outdated and unaware of what the customer wants and what is needed to
> keep up with customers demands and offering MORE.
>
> We live in a world where it's pretty obvious that people always want
> MORE and MORE and MORE. Give them what they want or they will give
> you LESS in return.
Again, you are talking about the end user, not the operators. If Stern
give the end user what they want, the operator will make LESS and LESS
and LESS. It's a fine line to walk.
> I think the DMD could have easily been utilized better. Gamers are
> and have ALWAYS been obsessed with "GRAPHICS". Is this like top
> secret information ? *ucking duh !! Bring the pin displays into
> the future and modern era and make them better and the improved
> graphics alone will make people want to play and see more. So damn
> obvious it's sickening. The biggest gaming obsession and demand for
> the last 20 years has been better and better GRAPHICS, GRAPHICS,
> GRAPHICS.
Now you are talking MORE and MORE money added to the cost of the game
to a business that's already having problems.
> As far as what could have saved pinball in the 90's and kept WMS in
> business and therefore if WMS kept making pins, would there even be a
> Stern Pinball ? Another subject for another time.
>
> Well, as i said before, i have been an avid gamer on every platform my
> entire life and it was obvious in the early 90's that the new wave of
> gaming that was coming was multiplayer gaming and the internet.
>
> I personally don't feel that P2000 was the way to go. At that point
> in time commerical video games had already started to see a major
> decline. At least the type of video game component they put into
> P2000 pins. To me, the P2000 video game component is too much like a
> Space Invaders type game. The various video screen objects just sit
> there or move back and forth and you shoot the ball at it instead of
> shooting a laser. I give them alot of credit for trying but i can
> see why WMS did'nt want to persue it any longer. Don't get me wrong,
> i like RFM for being unique and very cool looking and it's still fun,
> i just don't think it was the right idea to save pinball.
That platform showed a lot of promise that didn't get time to explore.
There were so many possibilities and room for expansion. Again, the
problem wasn't there, it was with the cost to impliment it.
> So my question is... Is there or could there have been a way to make
> Pinball a multiplayer type game ??????
Joust was already tried and failed. ;)
I feel they do since I was once one myself and also worked for them
when I was younger. :) -S (CARGPB1)
Lloyd Olson
what does good and where. So they will buy what fits their needs and they
have the best return on. LTG :)
"Steve Charland" <ccha...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4a55bc34-38ab-43ca...@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
The PinKeeper, AZ
I appreciate your feedback and agree with alot of things you
mentioned.
I know i'm too serious about pinball and i get carried away.
Alot of thoughts and opinions have also been bottled up for many years
of not just reading this newsgroup, but it also goes way back to when
i was younger and spent alot of time in the arcades. I tell you, that
operator that had the pins table slope at 10 with weak flippers,
really got to me. LOL !! It was a place in Reno, Nevada called
Diamond Jim's arcade. I'll never forget that place. The good and
the bad. LOL !!
I tend to find myself looking at things from more of a player/
collector point of view.
I know that leaves out the operators point of view, but at the same
time, i'm the end user and if you don't give me what i want, then i
won't support the operators or the products that they carry and
therefore the operators and game makers make no money.
Also, i see too many dirty and broken games on location and so why
should i or anyone else support those particular operators ? What
good do these type of operators do for pinball and companies like
Stern if they misrepresent the product ?
I know alot of this is a catch 22 since operators are needed to make
Stern succeed and so i guess it's really a lost cause if you can't
make both sides happy.
I base alot of my opinions on my personal wants as a player too.
I don't like pins from the 70's and 80's anymore and i have'nt for a
long time. Too simple and too boring for me personally. I know alot
of other players though like them more than the modern ones. I loved
them all as a kid and teenager, but once the 90's hit, it was over for
me. I love future technology and the 90's delivered it for me as far
as pins and pc's are concerned.
I prefer deeper rulesets, but that's just me. It does'nt matter if
i'm a good player or not. A better player will always have longer
ball times and game time on any pin regardless if it's deep or not.
But i feel the new players that are needed in the hobby would prefer
to see and experience more while they are playing. Pinball needs to
captivate new players, draw them into the game and keep them coming
back for more. I personally feel that simple games with simple rules
don't do that and the player will lose interest in a short time.
Unless the pin just has such an outstanding theme that is able to
accomplish the same thing. For example, the Stern IJ pin seems to be
doing well, at least at some locations that share that information
with us.
I know making pins more advanced makes them more expensive also. Some
themes are also out of reach because of costs involved in obtaining
them. That's too bad since that means pinball will never be able to
evolve any further and more than likely will regress.
I guess alot of the things i mentioned are irrevelant in today's world
since the industry is in decline and can't do what is needed because
of costs involved.
My comments and opinions are more fantasy than reality in alot of
ways, expect for what i see when i do go to an arcade.
Total reality there, which is NO PINS !! Alot of operators don't
even try and have given up i guess.
I have talked with hundreds of people about pinball and unfortunately
almost all of them don't even know that they still make pins, let
alone which ones they do make. Everyone thinks it's still Williams
or Bally that is still making pins and they all draw a blank when i
tell them that it's Stern. They say Who ?
I have also had alot of friends and co-workers come over to my house
and play and everyone of them has an absolute blast playing my pins,
but when they ask me how much a NIB pin costs and i tell them $4000.,
they just about shit thier pants. At that point it becomes funner to
know someone that has pins as opposed to owning one themselves.
LOL !! I tell them that they can buy older, used pins for much
less, but showing them brand new, maintained pins spoils it because
they all recall what they see in bars or movie theaters, which they
all comment is'nt as nice as what i have.
I find that most people don't really care if there are'nt any new pins
being made, because that's what they already think has happened. So
some type of rebirth or re-educating the masses about pinball needs to
take place, but that more than likely will never happen.
Anyways, thanks for the response. I appreciate your comments.
John
The PinKeeper, AZ
Castles and Coasters. Which many people have mentioned in other
posts.
Thier pins are definitely better than having no pins, but the
difference between playing one of thier filthy dirty pins as opposed
to one of my pins is night and day.
The gameplay and overall pinball experience is greatly diminished when
your playing a dirty pin with various issues. If that location was
going to be the place that determined my initial experience with
pinball, then i would'nt be walking away excited and telling all my
friends about it and i definitely would'nt be thinking about buying
one.
The last time i went there, they had a Champion Pub with the entire
boxer assembly missing. But of course, it was still accepting
people's playcards. I guess making and using an Out of Order sign
has become an unfavorable practice. LOL !!
John
The PinKeeper, AZ
> Operators know because they empty the cash box. They are the best expert on
> what does good and where. So they will buy what fits their needs and they
> have the best return on. LTG :)
>
>
> news:4a55bc34-38ab-43ca...@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> Many operators *do* know what the players want because they once were
> players too.
Hi Lloyd,
I have never properly introduced myself. Pleasure to hear from you.
I completely understand what you are saying when it applies to a
"hands-on" owner/operator like yourself.
You are able to get an accurate measure of what your customers like
and dislike because you are there in person and you maintain your pins
for your customers to enjoy.
But what about the operator that is'nt there, that does'nt perform any
updates or maintenance, that just stops by to empty the cash box ?
How is he suppose to get an accurate measure of how popular or how
much of an earner a certain pin is ?
What if the pin has problems and that is what is resulting in the pin
having a low cash box ?
If he does'nt perform any maintenance, then he would never know the
reason for the low cash box and then he would probably get rid of it
and tell other people or his distributor that it was a poor earning
pin.
When in reality, it might have been something that his customers would
have really liked, but he did'nt present the pin properly and that's
the real reason why.
I know that this is exactly what happened to my friends and i many
times when we use to frequent arcades regularly. There were so many
pins with issues that we never really got to play them and experience
the total package. I still see this happening in so many places now.
How is a pin suppose to be successful for Stern or any manufacturer if
there are operators out there that don't do what is needed to give it
a chance to be successful ?
Alot of times you only get 1 chance to gain a customer and if you
fail, then you only leave a lasting bad impression.
Anyways, just curious to hear your thoughts since you have been in the
business for so long and i'd appreciate any other words of wisdom you
might have.
Thanks,
John
Steve Charland
As a player first, I know how you feel but the reality at the cash
box is the final real answer as to how much time or money you invest
in a location game as an operator. When I worked for an op in the mid
70's, they had a formula to use and everyone including the players
were happy. A 5 ball game only lasted 3 minutes, anything more than
that, the op was cheated, anything less and the player was. Also the
pay back for investment was 20% and that consisted of 10% match, 10%
skill and players accepted it.
I can safely say that anyone playing a SS game after the EM era
would consider a 3 minute game a rip off. A player of the 90's era
games would definitely think so. The rule (above) was thrown out the
window first. Add to that all the extra "bonuses" the player was given
that added to the players time which made less for the operators.
Giving the player everything they want is what helped kill pinball and
will put it the rest of the way under the dirt. It's like a Pandora's
Box, once open, it's hard to close back up. Also, inflation seemed to
pass by pinball pricing without it going up, as a player in the 80's,
I saw this and loved it. What operator would be happy with an average
of 20 minute games for $.50? As an investment, it takes forever to get
back into the red (if you ever do). I don't know of any operator that
would want to put out a pinball based on that, especially when there
were many other ways to make money that were less costly per
investment and time. All my operator friends now cringe when they get
asked for a pinball on a location (and rightfully so IMHO).
As a small time operator a few years ago, I saw this coming and
dropped most of my accounts (my full time job is more rewarding to me
anyway). As a player only, I would have never thought about the other
aspect of coin op and have been lucky to see the other side. I feel
for anyone that is still hanging in there with routing pinballs and my
friends (like Lloyd) are truly my heroes in these times.
-S (CARGPB1)
On Nov 8, 12:25 pm, "The PinKeeper, AZ" <slones...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<well thought out post snipped for bandwith>
Lloyd Olson
below. LTG :)
"The PinKeeper, AZ" <slon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:55f453c6-0977-447a...@40g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 8, 12:28 pm, "Lloyd Olson" <l...@ssbilliards.com> wrote:
> Operators know because they empty the cash box. They are the best expert
> on
> what does good and where. So they will buy what fits their needs and they
> have the best return on. LTG :)
>
> "Steve Charland" <ccharl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:4a55bc34-38ab-43ca...@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
> Many operators *do* know what the players want because they once were
> players too.
Hi Lloyd,
I have never properly introduced myself. Pleasure to hear from you.
I completely understand what you are saying when it applies to a
"hands-on" owner/operator like yourself.
You are able to get an accurate measure of what your customers like
and dislike because you are there in person and you maintain your pins
for your customers to enjoy.
But what about the operator that is'nt there, that does'nt perform any
updates or maintenance, that just stops by to empty the cash box ?
What better judge does he have than the cash box ? Driving games do good at
a location, you put driving games there. Pool tables do good at a location,
you put in pool tables. Even in good times a good op doesn't put something
he knows will flop in a location when something else there will earn good.
If he isn't there to interact with the game's customers, his best resource
is the cash box. Location owners, players, bystanders all have an opinion,
the cash box doesn't lie.
Just look how many times in RGP's history threads have popped up that wonder
what a person's favorite pin to be built would be. And how many different
answers. Look at all the different games made, even in good times.
Manufacturers didn't build lemons on purpose, every game that made it into
production they hoped would earn good. And you don't know that ubtil you
empty the cash box.
How is he suppose to get an accurate measure of how popular or how
much of an earner a certain pin is ?
If it has 50¢ a week in it, it probably isn't a good earner. If it has $200
in it, it's probably a good earner.
What if the pin has problems and that is what is resulting in the pin
having a low cash box ?
If he's smart he'd know the coin drop went from X to a lot less. Then it's
time to find out why. Is the game working ? clientele change at the location
? time to rotate a stale game ?
If he does'nt perform any maintenance, then he would never know the
reason for the low cash box and then he would probably get rid of it
and tell other people or his distributor that it was a poor earning
pin.
This is kind of a which came first the chicken or the egg. And while I
believe if you have a game on location, it should be clean and working. you
owe that to your customer. An op has to work with what he has. And your top
location and top games get attention first. You bottom location and bottom
games get attention last if at all. And sadly pinball is in the bottom tier.
This past summer when gas was $4 a gallon and salaries for a good tech are
high, you don't waste time and money sending a tech on a one hour drive to
fix a game that does $1 a week. Fact of life. If you maintain and update the
same game, does not guarantee a sudden increase in revenue.
When in reality, it might have been something that his customers would
have really liked, but he did'nt present the pin properly and that's
the real reason why.
If there was potential there, they'd keep the pins up.
I know that this is exactly what happened to my friends and i many
times when we use to frequent arcades regularly. There were so many
pins with issues that we never really got to play them and experience
the total package. I still see this happening in so many places now.
You and your friends weren't enough. And possibly the only ones that cared.
If the pins were hauling in money at one time, they wouldn't be ignored.
How is a pin suppose to be successful for Stern or any manufacturer if
there are operators out there that don't do what is needed to give it
a chance to be successful ?
Times are tough and have been for a lot of years. A good op can't be
passionate about pinball as a hobby, he needs to make money to stay in
business. It took ten years to run the coin op industry into the ground, it
won't turn around over night. And for the most part, ops will need to make a
lot of money, in a lot of other games, before they have money to risk on
pinball.
Alot of times you only get 1 chance to gain a customer and if you
fail, then you only leave a lasting bad impression.
If it costs you money to have that one customer, then you can't afford to
cater to that customer.
Anyways, just curious to hear your thoughts since you have been in the
business for so long and i'd appreciate any other words of wisdom you
might have.
Thanks,
John
I wouldn't call it words of wisdom. But right now words of survival. This is
a pinball newsgroup, very hobby oriented these days. And people are very
passionate about things they care about. You have that luxury. Most ops
don't. They have to survive in the real world. A real world that is going to
get tougher before it gets better. You can't operate and maintain pins and
keep losing money doing it.
Ops have it pretty tough out there. Equipment costs are high, income levels
low. Expenses keep going up, including licenses and taxes. Competition is at
an all time high from home stuff, on line stuff, casinos, etc. etc.
Pinball's days may well be numbered as being commercially operated. Heck ops
days may be numbered. In the late 1940's you had over 300 operators in
Minneapolis, Minnesota alone. Now in Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota,
there is about 40 ops left. That is a big part of the problem right there.
Coin op manufacturers if they had any product, are running out of operators
to sell to.
This isn't going to turn around over night. And having a clean shiny working
pin on location right now won't rebuild an industry. No easy answers. There
is always change. There isn't always change we like.
LTG :)
beechwood
of order. Went back six months later, it was on. Played 1 minute
until the ball disappeared and never was seen again. I walked away.
I thought about calling the op (sticker was on machine) but they
obviously don't give a shit. That is a big problem. Went to the
other bowling alley, Starship Troopers dirty as hell and didn't work
well at all. Same op sticker. They obviously dont give a crap if I
stick 50 cents in their machine once, or put $5 a week every other
week or so. THAT IS ONE BIG PART OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM. They are too
busy flipping machines to really care about the routes.
Joel
HIOP
Rare Hero
there, w/ a couple kids birthday parties going on. All the pinballs
were being played by kids and adults alike! This little 7 year old
was getting SO PUMPED playing Batman..whenever the crane came out, he
went nuts...hah.
I didn't see one person playing the DDR - but the pins were being used
non stop. :)
I guess it really does come down to good locations having games. If
the games are there (and clean/working), people will play.
Greg
Pinba...@gmail.com
We do notice pinball play on our route increasing. Kids are tired of
the arcade games and seem to be playing pinball more.
twilightzonepinball
> On Nov 7, 2:52 pm, Rare Hero <rarehero...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 7, 11:46 am,twilightzonepinball<tomwi...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > How about a hybrid pinball/redemption game? Kids love redemption, add
> > > in some pinball skills.
>
> > Correct me if I'm wrong - but don't all the new Stern's have the
> > ability to add a ticket dispenser? There...bam. Redemption.
>
> > Greg
>
> They do. But there is no practical way to get the game to pay out
> tickets in a way that will get the gamblers in training to play them.
> The most glaring problem is needing a replay to get a ticket.
> Ideally, IMO, you should get a ticket at game start and then another
> per so many points. The programming flexibility is not there.
> Really, you could hook a ticket machine to transister Qxx that would
> drive the knocker and get the same affect as the very limited
> functionality currently in the SAM games.
>
> I sent a bunch of ideas on how to improve the ticket system to Stern
> last year and talked to Joe Blackwell about it. He thought they were
> good ideas but nothing has come of it.
>
> Parker
What I mean is not a traditional pinball, a hybrid "game" with a
redemption payout. Maybe a few steps up from Zizzle in quality and
size. A traditional pinball is too big and too tall for the kiddies.
Like a cocktail pin with payout.
-Tom
Pinball Basics DVD
Mike
environment in 2008:
-Pinball is not a revenue producing entity, any way you slice it. You
could get Allen Shope to service your pin route, and it wouldn't make
that great of a differrnce in the cash box. A "good" pinball stopp
will gross $100 per week per pinball machine. Split it, pay taxes and
licenses on it, and you're left with like $40. Many of the locations
out there don't meet the criteria of the good pinball location. I
guarantee you if the a list earnings staple were mandatory to operate
pinball, Stern would have been obsolete years ago.
Compare pinball to other things you can play in, let's say the bar
environment. You're paying $1 for 9 holes of GT that take around 5
minutes to play, and GT gets played with more frequency. The same can
be said for Buck Hunter Pro and Safari. Same can be said for Bowl A
Rama or Silver Strike. A countertop may cost less per play, but the
games last a shorter duration. Many times, the player is forced to
sit RIGHT IN FRONT of the countertop at the bar... this alone makes
it more likely to grab that $ than somthing else in the bar. You also
can't run satellite style tournaments on pinball like on the other
aforementioned pieces. Does the SAM system support internet/ethernet
connection? I think it does but it has not been utilized. Now is the
time, more than ever.
I could add pokers and 8 liners to this argument for areas in which
they are legal, but they would trump the entire argument, so we'll
leave them out.
-You can't up the price per game too much higher and expecgt pinball
to compete with other games in the bar environment. IT and others
have gotten away with it because they improve their product with more
elaborate gameplay and better graphics, etc. Pinball, to the naked
eye, really hasn't had an earth changing revamp. Pinball 2000 would
have counted as such, but in the end with what Stern puts out, you're
still doing the same thing on a pinball machine that you were doing 20
years ago. BEFORE WE ALL GET INTO A BIG ARGUMENT ABOUT THIS, KEEP IN
MIND THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CASUAL PLAYER HERE, NOT THE RGP!
I'm also not saying that Stern puts out a substandard product! Like
Lloyd has said, I would rather operate a Stern NIB than a WMS, simply
based on build quality. Those Stern pins for me have been virtually
maintenance free.
-A good segway into the next reason: Pinball has a stigma attached to
it with older ops about reliability. Who wants to send a tech out to
fix a machine that is netting $30 a week? Who wants to do it
constantly? This is the stereotype, not the reality. I have talked
to one or 2 fellow ops about this, and actually convinced at least one
that this is not the case any more. He tried out a NIB game for his
route! I haven't talke to him yet since... hopefully he is not
performing endless service calls or out of business based on my
advice :).
If you want to help the cause, the next time you confront an op about
maintenance vs income vs reliability on a pinball vs other coin op
devices, ask him how many trackballs and rifles he has changed on his
route in the past year, and what the cost of that was. That may
cabash the pinball maintenance argument from the op.
-Lastly, the cost of pinball at the distributor vs: the cost of all
other pieces that outearn pinball. An op can take an old GT Golf, and
upgrade it to GT 2009, SSBowling, Bowl a Rama, for around $2000. The
yearly upgrades for these games (that basically turn them into brand
new games through conversion) is somewhere around $500. Same goes for
Megatouch. A new Aurora costs around $3500, loaded with software.
Every 6 months to a year, Merit or JVL comes out with new games via an
upgrade. The upgrade kit is usually LESS than $500. IMO, it is only
a matter of time before Raw Thrills comes out with a BBH Safari kit to
upgrade BBH Pro. If you bought a BBH Pro dedicated new, it cost
around $5K, but Betson was really promoting a 27 month lease for
around $150/mo. with option to buy at the end for $1500. Needless to
say, the income pays for the game as time goes on, in most cases. If
I am right and that kit comes out, you're probably looking at $2200 to
upgrade a BBH Pro to BBH Safari. $2200... boom... brand new game. Do
that with a pinball! And the gun game grosses more than double the
pin in most cases.
So where are these options with pinball? No cheap conversions. You
could argue about software upgrades, but does the casual player "see"
these upgrades? You and I may see them, but not the genral public.
***Here is my solution. Stern pins already have the option for a
ticket dispenser. A pinball would be a great tool in the arcade
environment as a redemption piece. Sort of like a quick coin game
along the lines of a Wonder Wheel, where the objective is to get teh
customers to pump quarters in. Stern would have to offer a ROM
revision or upgrade across the board, but I don't think it would be a
big deal. 50 cents per game, and the player has the option to play
regular pinball or play for ticket. This option can be chosen
Tournament button vs Start button. A regular game would play
as ...well... a regular game. A ticket game consists of one ball...
no free plays, no extra balls, no match. One minute time limit. The
ball is served, and automatically launched into play with the plunger
shooter (no need for kids to wonder how to shoot the ball). Different
point levels, with a shot objective to score a jackpot of tickets (for
example, shoot all ramps for 40 tickets). That gets the kids and FEC
dollar involved, without damaging what is left of the current customer
base.
My 2 cents here. As an operator, I have a special spot in my heart
for pinball, and I am not shy about plunking down money for a NIB that
isn't going to earn gangbuster money. I will admit, though, that it
is getting tougher to do.
-Mike
The PinKeeper, AZ
I appreciate all of the information and your comments and points of
view.
It's helped me have a better understanding of many pinball related
issues.
I really like your idea Mike.
If redemption games are the money maker on location, then adapting
pinball to take advantage of that sounds like something that should be
explored further. I'm actually surprised we have'nt seen that
already in pinball since the redemption games have been popular and
successful for quite some time.
Maybe Stern already has explored that route and we just don't know
what thier conclusions or plans are.
If that is something that can be done to add more money to pinball on
location, then the pins could have signs or some of the redemption
prizes around the pins saying "play pinball and win me!" or something
like that, which would draw more attention to the pins and let people
know that they can win redemption tickets for prizes by playing
pinball.
All very interesting and thank you Joel for your insight to the
possible future of pinball.
Thanks again,
John
Terrapin Mark
> Here is the problem in a nutshell with pinball in the coin op
> environment in 2008:
>
> -Pinball is not a revenue producing entity, any way you slice it.
I agree. However as a pinball nut I will go to places that have
pinball. I used to go to the Dave & Busters near my house (Westlake,
Ohio) when they had a RFM and Stern Cleveland Browns (Do not laugh)
NFL machine.
They got rid of them several years ago and told me that they did not
make much money. Of course they were sitting in a dark corner at the
very back of the place.
I do not find myself going in the place as much. I am not boycotting D
& B just do not go in as much since the pins are gone. Yes, I know I
am in the minority.
Mark Salas
CARGPB 30
twilightzonepinball
I hate to pick nits here but most Sterns in the field need some kind
of major repair. Maybe not for the casual player, but for example the
POTC I play here in Merrimac, NH has the ship opto not working. Can't
shoot the ship! This is a relatively new game. Your Sterns don't need
maintenance?
-Tom
Pinball Basics DVD
Mike
> maintenance?
>
> -Tom
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Not usually. I give them a wipe down every other collection. Tech
them out every collection (play a game and check). If I keep them,
they have to be shopped every year. If you run newer Sterns, they
hold up pretty well. NASCAR has been my exception :)
-Mike
twilightzonepinball
I find most of the newer Sterns broken in some way. Do you test all
the functions and switches, or just wipe them down?
-Tom
Pinball Basics DVD
Mike
I make sure the game takes coins/bills, and then I'll play a game or a
ball and make sure things work.
BlueMalibu
I'll chime in. All in all the newer Sterns at Marvin's are holding up
well. There are issues that crop up though. Bad display in FG after
8 month (replaced under warranty, thanks Jack). Bad ship opto in POTC
when nearly new. Bad single drop target opto in FG. Wire fell off
pop bumper switch in IJ4. That's all I can recall off hand and these
were all EZ to diagnose and fix.
And we check and fix errors every week. Helps to set "error report"
to display every time the coin door is opened. The error report will
catch most issues.
Here is how we do it. Open game, check error report, put in switch
edge, clean (novus 2) while in switch edge so you can check as you go,
run lamp test and replace bulbs if needed, play game glass off moving
ball to each flipper to check flipper function. Test any suspect
devices (such as test car) while in test game. Done. Most times this
is only a 15 minute operation.
After about 5K plays it is time to change the flipper plungers as they
begin to wear and start to lose their feel.
TSPP has issues crop up a little more often as it it older but
considering its age and # of plays it is still doing good.
Now that Marvin's has a Nascar we will see how that does. Did upgrade
to V4.5 right away to minimize the issue with the test car.
Parker
phishrace
> I find most of the newer Sterns broken in some way. Do you test all
> the functions and switches, or just wipe them down?
The tech that takes care of the WMS games where I have my Stern's was
in an accident recently, so I'm taking care of his games until he gets
back on his feet. The WMS games are going to pieces! TZ started eating
coins, the trap door on FH broke a spring, AFM has an opto going bad
in the SOL hole and who knows what I'll find today?
I buy only Stern games in part because I'm still learning as a tech.
The WMS games are older, so naturally they will break down more often.
From my limited experience, I also find that Stern's are generally
easier to work on. I won't say the Stern's are built better. I'm sure
each company has (had) their strengths. I expect something new to be
easier to service and more reliable than something old. The car
industry is a good example of this. Another nice benefit of only
working on Stern's is that I don't get my hands dirty. The WMS are
filthy under the hood. Hate that! d:^P
I play in league weekly at this location and the owner will call me if
a game is having a problem. Major problems get attention quickly and
nothing gets past the league. League members will tolerate minor
problems. A credit dot does not disqualify a game from league play. We
understand how hard is is to keep some of the older games working
100%.
Are the WMS on location in your area usually working 100%? No credit
dots? What would you say is the ratio of Stern's to WMS' on location
in your area? WMS are disappearing around here. So if you find a game
with problems, it's likely to be a Stern. No matter who builds the
box, it'll break down if you don't maintain it properly.
-phish
tomc...@gmail.com
>
> meer lezen »
I agree with you on many points. However I get the idea you focus too
much on the operator side of pinball. Since it's not the 80's anymore,
perhaps you noticed marketing in every other industry except pinball
has changed too. If I were Stern I would not worry about whether my
sold games get played on location. That's the operators marketing. I
would worry about finding out who are the buyers and try to enlarge
that group. If home users are a growing market, try to expand that
market. As a manufacturer I would care about selling as many products
I could. If that means marketing in another market keeps your company
going: I would not hesitate.
I see so many possibilities for pinball, but it all comes down to
proper marketing. No chance for Stern in that department though...
Tom
Lloyd Olson
to Stern to not have problems after the fact.
"twilightzonepinball" <tomw...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8e398bde-c3c1-4ee2...@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
David Marston
Brian Blonder <bblo...@cox.net> wrote:
>...
>It's been said many times before, but pinball did well when there was demand
>for pinball by the casual PINBALL PLAYERS....
>
>What percentage of the folks who saw Dark Knight, IJ4, the Shrek movies,
>etc.etc. even know that there was a pinball machine made with those themes?
>If they knew that a machine had been created, how could they even figure out
>where to go to play it since we have so much trouble finding these games on
The industry response to that question was to create barcade.com, and in
particular its locator feature. But then they fell short on convincing the
maniacs to help out.
Others in this thread suggested that all the operator can do is put a
pinball (or any other machine) out where the casual player may casually
walk by and play on impulse. But one of the ways that the world has
changed in the last 20 years is that people have a lot of new ways to
get information on demand. When that impulse to play pinball is triggered
not by seeing an actual game but by seeing one on TV or hearing pinball
mentioned in a conversation, they can act on that impulse by going on-line
to find a place to play.
Suppose (as was suggested) that the next Family Guy DVD package included
an advertising card about Family Guy pinball. Should that card say:
"To find a Family Guy pinball in your area, go to barcade.com"?
If that would not work out so well, what is the solution, and who should
implement it?
--
................David Marston at MV
Brian Blonder
"David Marston" <mar...@osmium.mv.net> wrote in message
news:gh52g0$2osm$1...@pyrite.mv.net...
> (snip)
> Suppose (as was suggested) that the next Family Guy DVD package included
> an advertising card about Family Guy pinball. Should that card say:
> "To find a Family Guy pinball in your area, go to barcade.com"?
> If that would not work out so well, what is the solution, and who should
> implement it?
> --
> ................David Marston at MV
That wasn't my idea but there are even LESS expensive ways to advertise than
that. The problem with the pinball industry from a marketing standpoint is
they're focus is on advertising and communications methods that are
outdated. We've covered the problems with the traditional focus on
convincing operators to buy pinballs and put them out on location which
leads to people seeing the machines with themes of interest and playing the
game (sorry Lloyd but this is doesn't cut it when people aren't even
visiting the operator locations) - it predetermines the maximum potential
base to folks who ALREADY visit the locations which means you are, at best,
at status quo, and more likely well below this as the location visitors
dwindle.
The point is...why hasn't the pinball industry used all the very inexpensive
to free means to advertise that is available these days? Why do we have to
wait for someone to post videos of themself playing a new pinball game? Why
doesn't a search on YouTube under "pinball" result in a link to promotional
videos of all the Stern games still in production (nothing fancy is
required)? Why doesn't a search on YouTube for Batman lead to a Batman
pinball promotional video being on the list? Even the DVD flyer idea is
expensive compared to all the different ways that Stern could market the
themes and get the word out that the machines exist (rather than assuming
that someone who is a Batman fan is going to suddenly have the urge to
search for a Batman pinball machine or suddenly decide to visit the Stern
pinball site).
Just about every small business these days begins its marketing campaigns
with the consideration of how to use today's media/communications/internet
resources to "spread the word" to potential consumers of the business's
product. Every small business, that is, except Stern.
As to your barcode.com question, again, this can be resolved via the
internet. Marketers should not rely on just one means of advertising when
several inexpensive means are available. The DVD flyer will hopefully peak
interest of the individual to want them to learn more. Where do people go
these days to learn more? The internet, of course. So next, an internet
search should get them to promotional videos and other means of showing them
how much fun the game looks IN ACTION. And a google search should come up
with a link to information on where the game can be played (the nearest
operation location OR the nearest distributor for sale). The Stern site
could have been the perfect repository for this information. People
visiting the site could see the link to a list of Stern games by location.
Stern could have let distributors and operators populate the site. Yet, it
seems the opposite goes on in this industry. Nobody knows how to find out
from anybody where any Stern games are located. (Twilight now playing at a
theatre near you, but we're not telling you which ones and it's not on any
of the theatre marquees and you can't find out where via an internet
search...). We have to utilize all the "spies" on RGP to hunt out pinball
machines to play and report on their findings via websites that are
themselves a challenge to track down especially for anyone outside of RGP.
Dell came up with a revolutionary new means for marketing and selling
computers and it was a huge success. So they kept on doing it. And the
computer industry changed, the competitors changed, the demographics
changed, and Dell kept on doing it the same "revolutionary" way that has now
resulted in their financial troubles. Because they did it they way "they
always did it". And that's been the main response I've seen on RGP to any
recommendations about changing how the arcade/pinball industry works. The
argument back has been..."that's not how the arcade industry works". Guess
what. The arcade industry as it works, ain't working anymore.
- Brian B.
cody chunn
previews with that game locator website at the bottom and a short clip of
the game being played. Flyers aren't "green" anymore.
But then, does that mean Stern will have to pay even more for the license to
include advertising? Would the gambit work this late in the game? I think
there may not be enough time or interest from operators and locations to
last long enough for that type of ad campaign to have any effect.
Movies are still drawing good crowds even in the tough economy. if their
lobbies were full of pins instead of once-played videos, things would turn
around. They are one of the few remaining places that have plenty of room
for pins, and the pins are themed after movies playing right there. It's a
perfect match!!
--
-cody
--CARGPB4
"David Marston" <mar...@osmium.mv.net> wrote in message
news:gh52g0$2osm$1...@pyrite.mv.net...