New Pinball Maker? Makes me wonder...
Dan Nix
I thought Gene and Gary held the patents and trademarks on the devices
of a pinball machine i.e. flippers, VUK, slingshots, etc. Will this
company be paying to use these patents? Will the market support
another maker? Anyone know "the rest of this story"?
Dan
Aeneas
wrote:
Gene has the license to repro WMS parts.
As far as I know, the Australian person did have some talks with WMS
lawyers so probably he took a license for using bumpers etc.
Aeneas.
Ron Lyons
that would stick, or what they would need to do to get around it. They
actually patented a flipper? Maybe a different design would get them off
the hook. Incredible Technologies tried to patent their control panel for
Golden Tee, and when EA made an exact copy with different art, IT lost the
court case... so it'll be interesting to see what happens!
Ron
"Dan Nix" <Dan...@thenixagency.com> wrote in message
news:3617f185.04041...@posting.google.com...
Pinlicious
----------------------------------
But Wayne is also not happy with the games Stern is producing and thinks he and
his team can do better. "I think the World has unique requirements not serviced
by Stern since the No 1 pinball company Williams ceased making pinballs."
-------------------------------------
this is so hysterically funny that i am still taking a deep breath, for i fear
once i start laughing i will not be able to catch my breath.
i hope that (i can't believe i am gonna call it this) DRAWING was a joke, it
took me back to the 1st day of school in 7th grade mechanical drafting.
i am really just shaking my head at this whole venture from what i have seen
and heard so far...
pinlicious ( ...there is no spoon.)
dugmar
it.
There will be the inevitible naysayers that come out WAY too early and say
its a joke, (one already has), but you cannot deny, that this is exciting
stuff. Good luck to the team down under!
Fingers crossed.
Doug
"Dan Nix" <Dan...@thenixagency.com> wrote in message
news:3617f185.04041...@posting.google.com...
Ldnayman
warmed up to the Stern machines and their carpel tunnel inducing flippers, and
I would just love to see someone try to build something better.
Good luck mates
Yancy Blaylock
> i hope that (i can't believe i am gonna call it this) DRAWING was a joke, it
> took me back to the 1st day of school in 7th grade mechanical drafting.
What's so funny about the drawing? The design team can't just tell the
manufacturer "throw some flippers and slingshots on it". You have to
draft a measured drawing at some point, be it via CAD or pencil &
paper. Doesn't look all that different from every Williams or Stern
playfield design drawing I've seen on display at Expo.
> i am really just shaking my head at this whole
> venture from what i have seen and heard so far...
Really? What exactly have you seen & heard that's so pathetic you have
to shake your head? Sure, Wayne's talking big, but he has to. You
can't start a pinball company with a ho-hum, "I guess we might do
okay" kind of attitude.
Yancy
Michael
"Pinlicious" <pinli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040414052324...@mb-m25.aol.com...
> and i quote...
>
> ----------------------------------
> But Wayne is also not happy with the games Stern is producing and thinks
he and
> his team can do better. "I think the World has unique requirements not
serviced
> by Stern since the No 1 pinball company Williams ceased making pinballs."
> -------------------------------------
>
> this is so hysterically funny that i am still taking a deep breath, for i
fear
> once i start laughing i will not be able to catch my breath.
I'm sure that their first few efforts won't set the world on fire, but
with enough capital and resources, anything is possible.
> i hope that (i can't believe i am gonna call it this) DRAWING was a joke,
it
> took me back to the 1st day of school in 7th grade mechanical drafting.
Some people are old school, some are new. Drawing it out on paper is the
old school way, yes, but it gives you the advantage of being able to view
your layout fullsize.
> i am really just shaking my head at this whole venture from what i have
seen
> and heard so far...
Personally, I hope they make it. Competition improves the breed. Just
think, we could all still be driving Model T's around.
Michael
TheKorn
> Either way, exciting stuff. It will be interesting to see what comes of
> it.
Interesting? Yes. Exciting? Not yet.
It will be exciting if/when the first one or two games come out.
(After all, Vacation came out, but can't say that was really an exciting development.)
dugmar
It's the advantageousness of it is exciting to me. The risk alone gets the
blood pumping.
Just the businessman in me I guess. Maybe some of you guys get what I'm
sayin'. Maybe some of you don't.
Doug
TheKorn
> It's the advantageousness of it is exciting to me. The risk alone gets the
> blood pumping.
> Just the businessman in me I guess. Maybe some of you guys get what I'm
> sayin'. Maybe some of you don't.
No, I "get" it, I'm just having a different reaction. Ballsey? Absolutely.
Exciting? Not until machines start rolling off the line.
It'd be exciting to me if it was MY money, which it isn't. Until then, it merely
classifies as "interesting".
And I'm still trying to figure out what's advantageous about it... The majority
of his clientele aren't in his hemisphere, so he's going to have to ship 90%-95%
of his product overseas. If his production expenses are dramatically lower, then
that could easily offset the shipping cost, but I'm not-so-sure that's true.
Mr. Shawn Banting
I hope the first machine is Howzat II! I can see it working, cricket is
popular around the world and Denise Howzat is a cult figure.
I have an original Howzat, probably the only one in North America and it
rocks. You might get the four ball multi ball after about 20 minutes of
hard work. If you last that long.
Mr. Banting
Boyd Bottorff
> And I'm still trying to figure out what's advantageous about it... The
> majority of his clientele aren't in his hemisphere, so he's going to have
> to ship 90%-95% of his product overseas.
Or liscense the games to oversees manufacturers. That's how Japan gets
Italian pool tables, or the US gets Italian and some Japanese video
games.
MacMan
parts manufacture but we are close enough to Asia to get the widgets
done there cheaply.
I'm guessing the cost equalization will come from the exchange rate
currently 72c to your dollar, so that's a 28% cost reduction.
Keep in mind a year ago it was 52c to your dollar making it very
attractive if it heads back that way and I guess we won't know that
until we see who is President at the end of the year.
Cheers
MacMan
In article <1103_1081975895@ANUBIS2>, TheKorn <The...@TheKorn.net>
wrote:
MitchelWB
So many people have begged and pleaded in here for an LCD screen instead of
another DMD.
But apparently, it's been noticed by everyone buy Mr Pinball Australia and
Gary Stern. Because even in this article, while they are touting all the
new features such as network ability, USB updates, upgrade kits, and
swappable boardsets, they also had to go out of their way to mention that
they would still have the same nearly 15 year old DMDs. They didn't mention
anything about it still having pop bumpers, or still having ramps, or still
having lighting effects... but they did say it would still have a DMD. They
even put a picture on there to prove it!!!!!
MitchelWB
"Dan Nix" <Dan...@thenixagency.com> wrote in message
news:3617f185.04041...@posting.google.com...
dugmar
WHO?
>cricket is popular around the world
Cricket is about as popular in the US as curling dude. And I assume the US
would be one of the bigger markets for his sales, if not the biggest.
Doug
Lloyd Olson
programming to run what ever is shown on it. LTG :)
"MitchelWB" <kcsabres...@incamail.com> wrote in message
news:%9lfc.67259$z%1.5...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Boyd Bottorff
> So many people have begged and pleaded in here for an LCD screen instead
> of another DMD.
And a few of us would like to see the thing removed entirely. Just
something to keep score on-- no dots at all.
And think about it... it would remove a chunk of design time that has
very little bearing on the game. DMDs or LCDs on the playfield is
another matter... but displays on the backglass don't add a lot to the
game.
Donnie Barnes
> Wonder if it's a cost issue. Cost of LCD as opposed to DMD, and extra
> programming to run what ever is shown on it. LTG :)
Someone would have to prove that to me. Damned DMDs are expensive for what
you get, I think. Looking at the cost of 15" LCDs I simply can't imagine
that quantity buying would make LCDs any significant amount more expensive
these days...
--Donnie
--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.
Mark Clayton
In this case, it's probably a capabilities issue.
But it's come up before that the cost of an LCD is more than
just the display itself. Even a VGA resolution LCD, with
puny 8-bit color requires 300 times the storage of a DMD.
Plus it also needs a high-bandwidth interface to the CPU, a
proportionately faster CPU and more effort to design the dots.
-Mark
--
http://pinballpal.com
====
"Donnie Barnes" <djbSPA...@donniebarnes.com> wrote in message news:slrnc7rskq.5e...@localhost.localdomain...
GPE
"Donnie Barnes" <djbSPA...@donniebarnes.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc7rskq.5e...@localhost.localdomain...
I can't imagine the software being an issue between DMD and LCD - you can
get nearly identical controllers as far as CPU interface is concerned. But
a color LCD close to the same size as a DMD would cost about $380 (that's
for color 10 pc pricing and would be much, much cheaper for black&white).
At the rate in which LCD's are coming down - I can't imagine it being much
longer before these are a true alternative.
-- Ed
GPE
That is only if you use a full resolution LCD as in a computer screen.
you can get much smaller (and cheaper) ones from Optrex with similar
resolutions to DMD's - plus with a computer interface that closely matches
that of the Babcock DMD's.
-- Ed
"Mark Clayton" <spamus...@i87.com> wrote in message
news:P_mfc.39985$WA4....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Mark Clayton
True, a DMD-resolution monochrome LCD can be had for
much less than a DMD (although it's smaller). I was
relpying to the thread asking about 15 inch LCDs, which
would be VGA resolution or better, probably color.
I'm not nixing the idea at all - I think it would be great.
But a big LCD (color or monochrome) would expand the
CPU and memory requirements beyond the capabilities of
the traditional (and now obsolete) 8-bit CPU used by Stern
now and Williams (up to Pin2000).
-Mark
--
http://pinballpal.com
====
"GPE" <See_my_websi...@cox.net> wrote in message news:lLnfc.6856$DM5.962@okepread04...
Fred Kemper
than suit me too.
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"Boyd Bottorff" <bbot...@nomail.com> wrote
MitchelWB
> And a few of us would like to see the thing removed entirely. Just
> something to keep score on-- no dots at all.
>
If it is going to require a lot more CPU to be able to power an LCD, what
would happen if I hooked up an LCD monitor to an old 286 computer? Wouldn't
it run just as well? I guess I missed the point on needing a better
processor.
I would also think that programming dots would be a lot more difficult than
a color animation, but I'm a logic guy, not a graphics programmer...
The storage is something I hadn't thought of... I can see that being an
issue, but we're also talking about a system that is planning to go
EPROM-less... at least in the fashion that we're used to from what I was
able to glean from the article.
As far as price of LCD's... I have a 15" LCD monitor that I paid 260 for.
But I know for a fact that Circuit City at one time had the same 15" LCD
monitor with a $100 rebate, plus a $30 store gift card when you bought
one... That brings the price way down to a much more DMD comparable price.
And my LCD is 1024x768. a 600x480 14" LCD would be a major improvement over
DMD
MitchelWB
Robert
posts I have to believe that he knows what a quality pinball machine
is. Vacation obviously sucked big time, but was it even put togther by
pinball people? Did they have a clue at all? I have to think that
these guys must at least have a head start in that area, and know that
if they produce another Vacation that its going to flop...Would you
sell you pinball business to make another Vacation? Its not that Im
being overly positive here, just that I cant believe they are going to
be that stupid...I guess we'll see...
Donnie Barnes
> In this case, it's probably a capabilities issue.
>
> But it's come up before that the cost of an LCD is more than
> just the display itself. Even a VGA resolution LCD, with
> puny 8-bit color requires 300 times the storage of a DMD.
> Plus it also needs a high-bandwidth interface to the CPU, a
> proportionately faster CPU and more effort to design the dots.
I'm having a tough time buying that. Maybe I'm just naive, but it would
seem to me that anyone building a new machine from *scratch* would already
be using some sort of faster CPU with high bandwidth interfaces.
PC-caliber hardware is getting so cheap now, especially when you don't have
a space constraint that it would almost be silly not to just design the
thing using a standard PC mobo, cpu, RAM, video card, and 15" LCD. Develop
using a hard drive and then deploy using a ROM card. All you need from
there is a driver board, which you have to have anyway (and the world is
your oyster as far as how you interface it to the PC). Hell, even if
you're going to use a DMD for cost reasons I'd drive it off the driver
board and later just deprecate that part of the driver board if the costs
did allow you to switch to an LCD.
As for the $380 cost on 10 pieces of LCD around the same size as a DMD, why
would you limit yourself to that size? Go with massively available sizes
that have cheap prices, like the 15". You're not going to buy less than
1000 at a time, so you can go straight to the source for them, I'm sure.
Cons: Possibly higher per unit cost than an custom solution with cheaper
but far less powerful CPUs, but ONLY if you end up building thousands of
your solution. But I'm still not sure you can't do PC stuff cheaper.
Pros: Rapid development. Huge amount of available development software.
Easily available parts. Huge developer base already in existence. I could
go on.
Anyway, I'll shut up now. It's not my money.
Iain Odlin
>>cricket is popular around the world
>
>Cricket is about as popular in the US as curling dude. And I assume the US
>would be one of the bigger markets for his sales, if not the biggest.
Bad assumption. America doesn't even make up half of Stern's pinball sales
(or, at least, it didn't last year).
-Iain
Mark Clayton
I'll shut up too. I've had personal dealings with Wayne in the
past, so I have my own opinion of his abilities to pull off this
project successfully.
Reading between the lines, using a memory stick interface
implies that there is a high-level OS available (embedded Windows
or Linux, most likely), so the horsepower and storage requirements
for a big display are probably covered. However, there are the
other factors involved (stated previously), which are a little
harder to just go out and buy.
-Mark
--
http://pinballpal.com
====
"Donnie Barnes" <djbSPA...@donniebarnes.com> wrote in message news:slrnc7s2fj.5i...@localhost.localdomain...
Chris Woodruff
The vibrations from people shaking the machine would be a nightmare...
cw
in news:TJofc.39997$WA4....@twister.nyc.rr.com, "Mark Clayton"
CitznFish
<snip>
> And I assume the US
>would be one of the bigger markets for his sales, if not the biggest.
>
>Doug
If they put a metal ashtray on their new pinball and give it annoying
sound effects, Asia will be their biggest market. ;-)
-CF
CitznFish
<kcsabres...@incamail.com> wrote:
>Why Wayne?!?!?! WWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYY?!?!?!?!?!?!
>
>So many people have begged and pleaded in here for an LCD screen instead of
>another DMD.
>
>But apparently, it's been noticed by everyone buy Mr Pinball Australia and
>Gary Stern. Because even in this article, while they are touting all the
>new features such as network ability, USB updates, upgrade kits, and
>swappable boardsets, they also had to go out of their way to mention that
>they would still have the same nearly 15 year old DMDs. They didn't mention
>anything about it still having pop bumpers, or still having ramps, or still
>having lighting effects... but they did say it would still have a DMD. They
>even put a picture on there to prove it!!!!!
>
>MitchelWB
I have a feeling DMD's make better sense if they are trying to sell ad
space on their displays. It's 100 times easier to program an ad for a
DMD then an LCD, and the operators can do this themselves if it's a
DMD display.
Personally I think the ads in the DMD display is a brilliant idea.
Sure, we all HATE advertising, but here is a new direct method of
reaching comsumers that can be targets to their specific location.
-CF
Mark Clayton
That doesn't stop Midway, or Incredible Technologies,
or Megatouch, or...
-Mark
--
http://pinballpal.com
====
"Chris Woodruff" <cde...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:Xns94CBE4CEF996c...@64.164.98.49...
Chris Woodruff
in news:2Apfc.39998$WA4....@twister.nyc.rr.com, "Mark Clayton"
Chris Woodruff
be okay, especially if you mount it on something like foam so it absorbs
some of the impact...
cw
in news:Xns94CBEBEAD9FC6c...@64.164.98.51, Chris Woodruff
Mark Clayton
Mounting a hard drive in a 200 pound box guarantees that
it won't get any serious G-forces.
-Mark
--
http://pinballpal.com
====
"Chris Woodruff" <cde...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:Xns94CBEBEAD9FC6c...@64.164.98.51...
Fred Kemper
All in the "chips" :)
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"Chris Woodruff" <cde...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:Xns94CBEC4556C42c...@64.164.98.51...
Peter Hall
"Howzat!" is what a cricketer asks of the umpire when he thinks the
batsman should be out.
Dennis Lilley is the former Ozzie fast bowler that the Hankin game
"Howzat!" is based on - I'd say he was (past tense) a cult figure for
his bowling skills (I think he retired in the late 70s), the aluminium
bat controversy and the unforgettable (and amusing) faux-pas of asking
the Queen for her autograph!
Regards from Switzerland,
Peter
mrshow
(Williams) threw in the towel, Stern's pinballs have not advanced by
much since when Sega was running the show. This has to do a lot with
the system they are using, among other things. Stern is not capable
of supporting a color LCD screen right now. Even if they introduced a
uber-chipset and had mega memory and a fast processor, they still have
to make the graphics to support the LCD, which is one of the primary
reasons why pinball 2000 was a failure. Stern's biggest problem,
besides needing to put about $500,000 into R and D for new flippers,
is that EVERYTHING they produce has a cheap feel and quality to it. I
guess my point is, even with technology advancing daily at an
incredible rate (for instance nvidia announced their new graphics
board has a processor that has TWO HUNDRED TWENTY MILLION
transistors), Stern needs to take a chance and start making non-themed
pinballs.
Tom Kennedy
at a great price then next year the 15" is no longer available and you have
to go with the 17" and remodel the headboard to suit. Then if the 15"
breaks down at a later stage can it be easily sourced? With rapidly
changing technology it could make it very frustrating for the manufacturer
to standardise their product. What Wayne has stated is that their DMD
controller is capable of driving a colour LCD display if the software was
written for it. So I doubt that they've overlooked this option.
Like him or hate him you have got to give him credit for putting his money
where his mouth is and having a go. Something most of us dream about doing.
Regards,
Tom Kennedy
Australia
"GPE" <See_my_websi...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Mlnfc.6852$DM5.6017@okepread04...
dugmar
And we are getting this data from?
Who was Sterns biggest market?
Boyd Bottorff
> >
> > And a few of us would like to see the thing removed entirely. Just
> > something to keep score on-- no dots at all.
> >
> Boyd, you're not helping at all! :)
Well, no, nobody's going to do what I say... >sigh<
> If it is going to require a lot more CPU to be able to power an LCD, what
> would happen if I hooked up an LCD monitor to an old 286 computer? Wouldn't
> it run just as well? I guess I missed the point on needing a better
> processor.
I never made an arguement on the processor or storage. I just argued
the whole point of having DMDs/LCDs in the first place.
To me, the display has become like some of the web pages I hit that have
flashing graphics and surroundsound images, or splashscreen photos that
take time to load-- when all I want is to see what hours they're open.
I don't need a multimedia experience when playing pinball. And I think
that sometimes, the designers are worrying more about the flash than
about making their machines fun and reliable.
> As far as price of LCD's... I have a 15" LCD monitor that I paid 260 for.
> But I know for a fact that Circuit City at one time had the same 15" LCD
> monitor with a $100 rebate, plus a $30 store gift card when you bought
> one... That brings the price way down to a much more DMD comparable price.
> And my LCD is 1024x768. a 600x480 14" LCD would be a major improvement over
> DMD
Wholesalers are much less likely to run gift cards and rebates. And
four alphanumeric displays instead of a DMD could trim $20-30 off the
unit manufacturing cost. And not needing to program the dots could trim
several thousand off the design costs.
Craig Tiano
Vacation was built down to a consumer-level price, with distribution
by retail stores in mind. Because they needed to leave a significant
margin between their wholesale price and the suggested retail price,
the build cost had to be as low as possible. That meant no ramps,
habitrails, wireforms, and a one-level playfield. I don't think we'll
be seeing that level of price sensitivity from the Australian company,
since their market is the traditional operators and collectors like
us.
Craig
Craig Tiano
From someone who has "been there"... No one in their right mind would
design a brand new product today, with production in the 1000's per
year in mind, using an 8 bit microprocessor. PC motherboards are cheap
these days, and getting cheaper all the time. Likewise memory sticks
and lcd displays. While there still is the 'missing link' between the
devices on the playfield and the computer, enough technology has come
before to solve that easily enough, at a cost that isn't significant
in production volumes. Consider that many pc motherboards have
built-in vga and sound, that there are millions of pc developers, that
there are dozens of high end animation and drawing tools, and you'll
see how the argument of continuing to use a low resolution monochrome
lcd is pretty much vacuous. As for the argument that one has to spend
significant amounts of development resources to utilize these
displays-hogwash. You can use the display any way you want. In my own
scratch-built game, I had something that looked like a standard dmd
pinball game display showing over the top half of the lcd, and ran
video clips and pop-over windows in the other half.
Craig
scott
> Stern's biggest problem,
> besides needing to put about $500,000 into R and D for new flippers,
> is that EVERYTHING they produce has a cheap feel and quality to it. I
> guess my point is, even with technology advancing daily at an
> incredible rate (for instance nvidia announced their new graphics
> board has a processor that has TWO HUNDRED TWENTY MILLION
> transistors), Stern needs to take a chance and start making non-themed
> pinballs.
Aside from the ability to just pull a dollar amount out of thin air for
R & D, I'm not really sure how making a non-themed game fixes your
technology issues.
Kirb
> something to keep score on-- no dots at all.
Personally, I'm holding out for Nixie tubes....
Kirb
Keith P. Johnson
wrote:
>Vacation was built down to a consumer-level price, with distribution
$3000 is consumer-level? As opposed to 3800?
keith
--
At one time I had random Your Mother jokes down here.
Maybe someday they'll return...
PinballMoxie
>
> It will be exciting if/when the first one or two games come out.
Haven't we already been down a similar road when GeneC bought out
CAPCOM and had the parts and already-designed games that he could just
"roll off the line"?!?!
Its much easier said than done to setup an assembly line to build a
game. That's one MAJOR hurdle in and of itself, let alone the whole
design process of the prototype game. Oh yeh, don't forget about
setting up a whole distribution system.
The pinball playfield (pun intended) is littered with corpses of
startup companies that have tried and failed - most that had much more
experience at the pinball industry than MR PIN-AUS, such as Game Plan,
Capcom, Alvin G & Co.
If it was doable then it seems like it would be easier to pickup where
these companies left off, make some changes to their designs and then
go forward - maybe even with Gottlieb as a base. After all, most
successful companies don't RE-INVENT anything, they purchase something
that "almost" meets their needs and then make the final adjustments
prior to bringing the product to market.
Name Recognition in this industry is EVERYTHING. Stern still
struggles somewhat because they have the name Stern stamped on the
side of their games. Take Stern off the game and slap WMS on them and
they would sell big-time - their last few games are excellent!
You gotta have Name Recognition, a Distribution network, and a decent
product - in that order! Capcom & Alvin G. made decent games at the
time but w/o a Distribution network to re-sell their games they
collapsed.
Enough ramblings. Its hard enough to find new Sterns on route around
here in KY so I know I'll NEVER see one of these AUSSIE games even if
they do come to market.
Later
Ldnayman
>that sometimes, the designers are worrying more about the flash than
>about making their machines fun and reliable.
hasn't pinball history shown you ANYTHING? If it weren't for "gimmicks" and
"flash," pinball would have died a million years ago.
Flippers. Animated Backglasses. Multiball. Magnets. Big plastic space
shuttles. Sirens on top of the backbox. Dot matrixes. Speech. Imploding
castles.
ALL of these things were created and stuck around because they increased the
take in the cash box. You think Gorgar would have sold 14,000 without speech?
It's a good game...but THAT good?
Fun and reliable is good...but it is the flash that brings in a good chunk of
the money.
Nothing NEW has been seen on a pinball machine in ages (unless you count
Stern's little playfield LEDs, which I don't think really blew anyone's mind).
A little flash might be just what is needed, and I could see an LCD screen
turning some heads.
TheKorn
> > Interesting? Yes. Exciting? Not yet.
> >
> > It will be exciting if/when the first one or two games come out.
>
> Haven't we already been down a similar road when GeneC bought out
> CAPCOM and had the parts and already-designed games that he could just
> "roll off the line"?!?!
Exactly my point! :) I'll get excited when it affects me, either directly or indirectly.
Up until the games come out, it's just something out there that someone is
working on in the garage.
> Its much easier said than done to setup an assembly line to build a
> game. That's one MAJOR hurdle in and of itself, let alone the whole
> design process of the prototype game. Oh yeh, don't forget about
> setting up a whole distribution system.
It'd be easier to go the CostCo route than to set up a distribution network at this point,
I think.
> Enough ramblings. Its hard enough to find new Sterns on route around
> here in KY so I know I'll NEVER see one of these AUSSIE games even if
> they do come to market.
Well, you could always play the big baller and buy one, if it ever gets to that
point. ;)
frenchy
> http://www.pinballnews.com/news/australia.html
>
> I thought Gene and Gary held the patents and trademarks on the devices
> of a pinball machine i.e. flippers, VUK, slingshots, etc. Will this
> company be paying to use these patents? Will the market support
> another maker? Anyone know "the rest of this story"?
>
> Dan
Wms didn't invent the flipper or the pop bumper, they only have
patents on certain features of them. As for the original concepts
they were come up with over 50 years ago anyway. Capcom made machines
from scratch without having to go to Williams to seek patent
permission on everything. It's like multiball - sure you can have
multiple balls in play but if you want to call it multi-ball, THEN you
have to have Williams permission...Frenchy
frenchy
> I don't see what's so funny about it...I'm one of the people who has never
> warmed up to the Stern machines and their carpel tunnel inducing flippers, and
> I would just love to see someone try to build something better.
>
Stiffer springs or not, if Stern's buttons are actually giving you
carpel tunnel syndrome, seriously dude, I suggest buying one of those
little wrist exerciser things. Carpel tunnel is caused by repetitive
motions, not hard repetitive motions (if you want to call pushing a
Stern flipper button hard). If flipping the buttons on other maker's
pinballs for hours on end didn't give you CTS, you're safe.
Ldnayman
>pinballs for hours on end didn't give you CTS, you're safe.
>
Ok Frenchy you called me on this one...I was exaggerating for comic effect.
On the Stern games, no matter WHICH one, a lengthy game causes them to lose
some snap. If it's TSPP, or T3, whatever, when I'm having a great game this
happens. So I find myself instinctivly pushing the buttons harder (probably
doesn't really help though). This, coupled with those stiff buttons, results in
a feeling of fatigue in the index finger/thumb cortex. I just made that human
body part up, but you get the point.
Long story short...BETTER FLIPPERS PLEASE Stern. Or hell, Mr. Pinball
Austrailia. I don't care who does it.
flippy
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.net> wrote in message
news:1103_1081975895@ANUBIS2...
> And I'm still trying to figure out what's advantageous about it... The
majority
> of his clientele aren't in his hemisphere, so he's going to have to ship
90%-95%
> of his product overseas. If his production expenses are dramatically
lower, then
> that could easily offset the shipping cost, but I'm not-so-sure that's
true.
Typically shipping costs are paid by the buyer/customer. So this would not
be a concern. Stern ships a majority of their product to Europe.
Don't know if it costs more to ship from AU to EU than it does to
ship from US to EU. If it costs more to ship from AU then the customer
in EU might not like it.
Iain Odlin
>> Bad assumption. America doesn't even make up half of Stern's pinball
>> sales (or, at least, it didn't last year).
>
Don't be snarky; Ten seconds on Google easily gets you this answer.
Nearly every interview with Gary Stern contains this info.
For instance (paste this back together: http://www.newcitychicago.com/
chicago/features-2000-04-27-315.html ):
"Today, however, there are only 10,000-15,000 machines made per year,
half of which head for Western Europe. 'France is a major market, it's
about fifteen to sixteen percent of the worldwide pinball market,' Stern
explains."
Or this ( http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/06/24/pinball.nostalgia/ ):
"But optimism remains high outside Chicago at Stern Pinball, the world's
only remaining manufacturer of the game. Hope for the industry lies not in
the United States, he says, but in Europe, where Stern sells 60 percent of
the 10,000 machines it makes each year. 'Our strongest market is France,"
Stern said. "which represents 15 percent of the worldwide pinball market.'"
Perhaps it's changed more recently, but the subject came up during TSPP's
release as well (many of us wondered if the Simpsons was big in Europe) and
I don't recall the answer being different. Do your own homework.
>Who was Sterns biggest market?
Probably the US, but it's still half or less of the world market. No, a
cricket pin wouldn't sell well in the US (and probably not in France, either),
but since the US makes up half Stern's sales at best, it is silly to just
automatically disregard themes that would be popular outside the US.
No matter how much some would like to think so, the US is not the entire
world.
-Iain
TheKorn
Sure it does! ANYTHING that adds to the bottom line out the door price
is a concern. Just because Wayne wouldn't be the one paying it doesn't
matter; the customer is the one who's going to pay it either way, and it
matters to the customer!
Stern is in a better position, in that roughly 40% of its customer base is
in the country where it assembles the games. That's at least tolerable. But
having only 5% of your customer base local (max) seems like folly to me.
Wolffy
TheKorn wrote:
> Stern is in a better position, in that roughly 40% of its customer base is
> in the country where it assembles the games. That's at least tolerable. But
> having only 5% of your customer base local (max) seems like folly to me.
Which is probably the logic behind the statement someone told me that
manufacturing in Austrailia is very expensive.
-wolffy
flippy
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.net> wrote in message
> Stern is in a better position, in that roughly 40% of its customer base is
> in the country where it assembles the games. That's at least tolerable.
But
> having only 5% of your customer base local (max) seems like folly to me.
First of all I think your 40% value is high, based on comments from Stern
people including Gary. Both companies still have to ship over seas.
Ocean freight is cheap. Air freight is not. My company has several
over seas suppliers who do not even charge for shipping on product
sent via ocean freight.
TheKorn
See Ian's post, above. I'll stick by 40%.
As for shipping, it varies; if you can always ship an absolutely full container
then it's not SO bad. But it's just another cost to be factored into the equation;
the businessman in me doesn't understand (at _all_) why you're completely
discounting it.
Yeah, some companies might not _explicitly_ charge you for overseas shipping,
but sooner or later SOMEONE pays for it. Until everyone is running boats
across the ocean for free, it's paid for either by increased unit price or a
decreased profit per sale, _neither_ of which is beneficial for the seller.
It's basic business! Obviously, if you can make up that difference in other ways
(say, cheaper labor), then it makes sense. But even with the labor rate at 75%
(according to the aus. gent above), I'm not sure those numbers "work".
Boyd Bottorff
> >I don't need a multimedia experience when playing pinball. And I think
> >that sometimes, the designers are worrying more about the flash than
> >about making their machines fun and reliable.
>
> hasn't pinball history shown you ANYTHING? If it weren't for "gimmicks" and
> "flash," pinball would have died a million years ago.
The key word is "more". I'm not saying that flash is bad. But flash
is only part of the design, and it's the less important part. It's the
icing, not the cake.
Sometimes it gets to be like a movie where the budget gets spent on
special effects or big name actors/directors, when they should have
spent a bit more money on Getting A Real Script.
> Flippers. Animated Backglasses. Multiball. Magnets. Big plastic space
> shuttles. Sirens on top of the backbox. Dot matrixes. Speech. Imploding
> castles.
Uh huh. And I can mention examples of flash gone bad. Magnetic gloves.
Most video modes. Repetitive speech. Wrecking balls. Flip-flops (OK,
cute, but why burn the space for *that*?) Too damn many plastic toys.
Dreadworld and other oversized space wasters. Monitors taking up half
the playfield. Games that won't give you the ball for five seconds
because they have to do their stupid animations.
Pinball 2000 was a perfect example. It had serious potential. Great
"flash". But the two games they made sucked rocks. If they had made
better games, Williams would still be in business. But they spent all
their time on the flash, and not on the substance.
> ALL of these things were created and stuck around because they increased the
> take in the cash box. You think Gorgar would have sold 14,000 without speech?
> It's a good game...but THAT good?
> Fun and reliable is good...but it is the flash that brings in a good chunk of
> the money.
No, flash brings in the first set of quarters. A solid, fun game brings
in the rest.
Ldnayman
in the rest.
>>
Hard to disagree there...I guess I'm just saying I LIKE flash! And I think you
will note almost all of the biggest sellers of all time had big time flashy
innovations:
AF-Thing, the power
Hi Speed-the beacon on top
Flash- Well, it's called flash! Also the first digital with background
sound...and the first with truly awesome digital sound. Nothing else was like
it in the arcade when Flash came out. Might be the first game with flashers
too?
Space shuttle - big honkin' space shuttle
T2- the cannon
Firepower- multiball
Gorgar - speech
I don't know the whole list but I'm sure you will fill me in on the 2 out of
best 10 selling games ever that had no distinct innovation.
A good game keeps them coming back I absolutely agree, but without the cool
gadgets, many won't even put that first quarter in. Especially THESE days.
People aren't heading out to bars thinking "I am gonna play pinball tonite!"
They are concerned first with getting drunk, and then hoping to parlay that
into some kind of sexual activity. I really think if Stern got rid of some of
the cheap shit like LED screens, action figures, big do-nothing heads, and put
in ONE cool gadget in each game it would attract attention.
Lighted toppers are pretty cheap and I think they always draw people in. You
can't even SEE a pinball in a crowded bar like 7B in NY unless you are within a
few feet of it. Something cool and lit up on top would definetly attract
attention.
Donnie Barnes
> I'll shut up too.
Oh, don't take my comments the wrong way. I understand where you're coming
from. I just figure there isn't much use going too far into discussions
about this as it's unlikely anyone who is reading it has the ability to
*use* any good information that would come out anyway. :)
> I've had personal dealings with Wayne in the
> past, so I have my own opinion of his abilities to pull off this
> project successfully.
Uh, there's that.
> Reading between the lines, using a memory stick interface
> implies that there is a high-level OS available (embedded Windows
> or Linux, most likely), so the horsepower and storage requirements
> for a big display are probably covered. However, there are the
> other factors involved (stated previously), which are a little
> harder to just go out and buy.
Right. Agreed.
Donnie Barnes
> I never made an arguement on the processor or storage. I just argued
> the whole point of having DMDs/LCDs in the first place.
>
> To me, the display has become like some of the web pages I hit that have
> flashing graphics and surroundsound images, or splashscreen photos that
> take time to load-- when all I want is to see what hours they're open.
>
> I don't need a multimedia experience when playing pinball. And I think
> that sometimes, the designers are worrying more about the flash than
> about making their machines fun and reliable.
I'd like to see as rich a palette of options for the designers as is cost
effective, personally. Considering an LCD *definitely* costs less to put
in a game these days than spinning wheels, I favor the LCD. ;) Perhaps
there are ways a *good* designer can change your mind that none of us have
even thought of yet! Or perhaps you just use the extra screen real estate
to allow for six player games. Or let operators sell advertising on it
easily! *shrug*
>> As far as price of LCD's... I have a 15" LCD monitor that I paid 260 for.
>> But I know for a fact that Circuit City at one time had the same 15" LCD
>> monitor with a $100 rebate, plus a $30 store gift card when you bought
>> one... That brings the price way down to a much more DMD comparable price.
>> And my LCD is 1024x768. a 600x480 14" LCD would be a major improvement over
>> DMD
>
> Wholesalers are much less likely to run gift cards and rebates. And
His point is if they can afford those gift cards and rebates then the
wholesale price is still *lower* than the total after rebate. Unless the
item is being used as a loss leader, it *has* to be. Retail stores don't
stay in business long otherwise...
> four alphanumeric displays instead of a DMD could trim $20-30 off the
> unit manufacturing cost. And not needing to program the dots could trim
> several thousand off the design costs.
Sure, but will the quarter-dropping-public play it? If not, no operators
buy it. If no operators buy it, company go belly up.
Donnie Barnes
> I have a feeling DMD's make better sense if they are trying to sell ad
> space on their displays. It's 100 times easier to program an ad for a
> DMD then an LCD, and the operators can do this themselves if it's a
> DMD display.
Oh, I disagree *completely*. Adding the ability to display quicktime files
or at least animated gifs or pure jpegs would be easy to do. Pop a CF card
in there with the files in the right place and they "just play." Okay, so
it may be a little harder to make a pretty jpeg than it is to punch some
text into the game using the flipper and start buttons, but I think the
benefits to an operator of the LCD advertising would *far* outweigh the
extra complexity of the ad creation.
I doubt you can "sell" what would basically (in DMD land) be a "custom
message" (which we've had for ages). You could sell an actual moving
advertisement in full color with sound.
Fred Kemper
Not a good example. Nothing wrong with either of these
games. They play well, attracted new players, and make
money for the operators. They made money for Williams.
Williams bailed from pinball for entirely different reasons.
They wanted to make gambling machines.
This has been covered here extensively.
--
Fred
TX
CARGPB#8
******************
"Boyd Bottorff" <bbot...@nomail.com> wrote in message news:1gcayt9.1yruss7naxo8eN%bbot...@nomail.com...
MitchelWB
Sometimes I think I type a thought out perfectly clear, but no one else
seems to get it. Donnie got me pegged this time around.
Why would an advertiser even want to pay to have a short message that
appears only once in a long string of rotations, on a monochrome screen,
with a blah font.. besides... have you ever tried to enter a message on a
DMD? I did it to the first DMD machine I got, haven't done it since... it
was just too much of a pain in the rump and the final product didn't justify
the effort to me...
But with a color LCD, any company could easily provide a standard format
image or video file that would be uploaded via this fancy network interface
they talk about and could include the companies pitch, contact info, and
even logo rather than trying to cram it all into the 3 screens of custom
messages currently allowed on WPC machines.
If you want advertisers to pay for ad space, you've got to give them a
suitable place to put their ad. Letter counts and monochrome just aren't
going to cut it when they have so many other options already.
MitchelWB
Daniel Tonks
news:rg2t70po62qdv6lcj...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:08:46 -0400, Craig Tiano <cr...@vandenplas.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Vacation was built down to a consumer-level price, with distribution
>
> $3000 is consumer-level? As opposed to 3800?
I have to agree... the reduction in interesting parts and features seemed to
far outweigh the modest reduction in price. Priced at $2000 (street) they
might have done better...
- Dan
Craig Tiano
>> Its much easier said than done to setup an assembly line to build a
>> game. That's one MAJOR hurdle in and of itself, let alone the whole
>> design process of the prototype game. Oh yeh, don't forget about
>> setting up a whole distribution system.
>
>It'd be easier to go the CostCo route than to set up a distribution network at this point,
>I think.
That's one of the problems that plagued Churchill's Vacation Pinball.
The margins required by a retail operation are significantly higher
than the margins that distributers get today. The machine that Stern
sells to distributers at $2999, sold by distributers between $3500 and
$4000, would hit the retailer between $5000 and $6000. Even a big box
retailer like Costco would have to sell it between $4400 and $5000.
Big box retailers also charge "shelf space" charges (like a
supermarket) to carry certain products. That's yet another factor that
greatly inflates prices for low volume items. And, we can see how
effective Costco was selling Vacation at $2995. You'd be better off
trying to sell them direct mail...
Craig
Craig Tiano
The wholesale on the Vacation game is about 60% of the retail price,
versus 80% on Stern's latest offerings. The issue is the distribution
network. If the Vacation mark-up was kept to the levels most
distributers charge, Vacation would be a $2200 game.
Craig
flippy
"TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.net> wrote in message
news:1103_1082067665@InkSpace...
> On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:53:10 GMT, "flippy" <fli...@noisp.net> wrote:
> > "TheKorn" <The...@TheKorn.net> wrote in message
> > news:1104_1082052680@InkSpace...
> > > Stern is in a better position, in that roughly 40% of its customer
base is
> > > in the country where it assembles the games. That's at least
tolerable.
> > But
> > > having only 5% of your customer base local (max) seems like folly to
me.
> >
> > First of all I think your 40% value is high, based on comments from
Stern
> > people including Gary. Both companies still have to ship over seas.
> > Ocean freight is cheap. Air freight is not. My company has several
> > over seas suppliers who do not even charge for shipping on product
> > sent via ocean freight.
>
> See Ian's post, above. I'll stick by 40%.
I've heard Stern people quote lower numbers when asked
at Expo & during the factory tours.
> As for shipping, it varies; if you can always ship an absolutely full
container
> then it's not SO bad. But it's just another cost to be factored into the
equation;
> the businessman in me doesn't understand (at _all_) why you're completely
> discounting it.
businessman ?
Do you work for a manufacturer or as a purchasing agent,
or arrange shipments to Europe ?
I do.
Freight charges are an expected & usual cost of doing business.
> Yeah, some companies might not _explicitly_ charge you for overseas
shipping,
> but sooner or later SOMEONE pays for it. Until everyone is running boats
> across the ocean for free, it's paid for either by increased unit price or
a
> decreased profit per sale, _neither_ of which is beneficial for the
seller.
I think we all know that nothing is free. Again it is an expected &
usual cost of doing business. The European buyers have to pay
for over seas shipping regardless of whether the machines are
made in US or AU.
In terms of freight costs, I think it is more important in what they
will have to pay in AU to get the raw materials in to their location.
That is where it will really affect pricing.
Dan Nix
half of which head for Western Europe. 'France is a major market,
it's
about fifteen to sixteen percent of the worldwide pinball market,'
Stern
explains."
Damn - if France is such a big market, I'm afraid after Elvis we might
see a Jerry Lewis pin. I don't think I'm ready for the "Hey Laaaady"
Multi-ball...
Dan
Bruce
"Ldnayman" <ldna...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040415220432...@mb-m14.aol.com...
<snip>
> They are concerned first with getting drunk, and then hoping to parlay
that
> into some kind of sexual activity.
<snip>
Manic
"gary" <gpc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:770d1cb1.04042...@posting.google.com...
> i just bought a brand new LOTR and T3 from Stern ... NIB ... anyone
> who says that Stern quality is poor is NUTS !!! These are great pins,
> as good as anything that Bally and Williams ever put out ... There is
> a lot of amnesia when it comes to total recall of 1990's Williams pins
Puh-leez the "amnesia" seems to be yours from your comments. But
dropping 8K on two machines makes for a heck of a case of "owner's
denial"... you are having you 8K honeymoon right now so enjoy it ;-)
Why jump in here to bash other's favs just to justify your own
purchase?
People point out Stern's poor quality to get them to change. When TSPP
came out they didn't even bother to put down mylar by the pop bumpers...
after some outcry this changed. Most LOTR's have "pre-damaged cabs"
... hopefully this will change too. The amount of technical complaints about
LOTR is amazing - even for Stern. TSPP didn't have nearly as many issues
so maybe they aren't even getting better...? From a reliability standpoint they
managed to go backwards - forget the super low-res cab and plastic art...
just keeping the flippers strong for a half hour seems to be impossible without
completely swapping all parts with Wms components (read The Black Knights
list of needed improvements).
> ... Sure, some of them were great, but a lot of them were absolute
> garbage in my personal, humble opinion ... and also remember that the
> Bally Williams guys were in charge when pinball went from over 100,000
> units a year,
What year did any one manufacturer sell over 100,000 units?
>to NO UNITS per year
Sure when they CLOSED THEIR DOORS - the pin2000 models actually
had an upswing in sales. But slots is *the* moneymaker these days.
(aside from the last second save by
> Gary Stern) ... and at the end of the day I can say with great
> certainty that both T3 and LOTR (aside from some weak side art) are as
> good or better than the best Williams ever made ... Just one mans
> opinion,
Then maybe you shouldn't say it with "great certainty"... I'm just as
certain T3 was a total dud that indeed sold quite poorly. In fact I would
always pick a cherry T2 over T3 as it plays considerably faster and
IMO... more fun.
And yet you are comparing it to MM (or *any* Wms A or B title?)
... yeah that makes great sense ;-) not.
who was very suprised at how good both of these pins were
> when I opened them up today .... GREAT job Gary Stern !!!!
Guess "amnesia" has also prevented you from seeing the *copious*
amount of tech complaints for LOTR. Try tonight's "lotr flippers -
poor performance". Or google up a couple hundred hits ;-)
I like LOTR but as other's have stated - it's a route nightmare and
a damn near unfixable (if you have certain standards you are used to)
home pin. I can't thank Stern for sending out 4K damaged units either.
It's one thing to know you are paying Wms prices for a machine with
ultra-cheap, low-res artwork, plastics, etc etc...
But to accept all that and then STILL have the thing show up with
a damaged cab NIB... well I couldn't roll the dice that way. I've
never been a gambler though anyways ;-)
Hope you got lucky in the cab dept however and enjoy the honeymoon ;-)
LOTR is indeed a *fun* machine to play - thanks to Keefer's work
and *despite* Stern's cost-cutting.
The_Black_Knight
If you look in comparision at PinMame and Visual Pinball and seen what
it can do, both in coding and design, I think a new company in the
right hands could succeed. Granted, customer based in Australia is
small, but so was Hankin.
All it takes, is one solid game, to launch them into the spotlight.
If they try an original theme, instead of licensed one to reduce
costs, they have a better chance.
I look forward to seeing their first production, but they do have some
big shoes to fill, and Stern has only filled part of them, maybe the
other half can be scored by Mr. Pinball Australia.
I say the Best of Luck!
The_Black_Knight
Iain Odlin
wrote:
>Puh-leez the "amnesia" seems to be yours from your comments. But
>dropping 8K on two machines makes for a heck of a case of "owner's
>denial"
So, the only people qualified to speak about the quality of a pinball machine
are the people who don't actually own them?
I guess the Yugo was a fantastic car, then.
Riiiiight.
-Iain
Manic
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 02:57:47 GMT, "Manic" <manicmusic...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Puh-leez the "amnesia" seems to be yours from your comments. But
> >dropping 8K on two machines makes for a heck of a case of "owner's
> >denial"
>
> So, the only people qualified to speak about the quality of a pinball machine
> are the people who don't actually own them?
Well not being financially invested in them does seem to make them
easier to critique... you would deny the glowing effect of the
"expensive toy honeymoon"?
Chris (BK) sure didn't give his any honeymoon however - he tore right
into that wench with a passion. No owner's denial there ;-)
>
> I guess the Yugo was a fantastic car, then.
Maybe to the owners during what must have been the briefest of all
honeymoons.
>
> Riiiiight.
You do keep me honest Iain... don't confuse me with logic :-)
>
> -Iain
bluesteve
minor points, and not the bigger picture.
My feeling is that Wayne, like any start up in this market anywhere in
the world hasn't a chance in hell of creating a pinball manufacturing
business that can turn a profit and be around in ten years time.
Williams didn't give it up without reason.
The problem is not so much to do with manufacturing costs in AUS,
distribution etc, but the size of the market worldwide. Pinballs may
be going through a popularity phase at the moment, but lets face it -
we are really talking about a collectable, rather than a new
mainstream market. Mum and Dad are really thinking more about buying
a new Xbox or Playstation for the room that used to be used for pool
tables, but now houses the projector TV and a few revitalised game
machines like pinballs or arcade games for posterity. And the route
market certainly doesn't exist here - video type games are more likely
to attract the coin op investor - I suspect this is probably the case
worldwide.
Having said that - if there was a demand for new pinballs that
justified production of a new machine, there is no reason why Mr
Pinball in Aus couldn't be the one to fill this gap in the market.
Ultimately, whilst the hype goes that the manufacturer is in
Australia, the likelihood is that if they came up with a game that the
market wanted in the 1000's, the machines would be churned out of a
plant in China or the like and just designed here. Just look at your
Panasonic DVD or your Sony Plama TV. They don't get made in Japan,
with its now relatively high labor cost base - just designed there.
I recently bought a DVD player here for $50.00 Aus, thats about $35.00
US, and it had all the bells and whistles, remote and batteries
included!
So whether the machine had an LCD or DMD display, or whether it used a
32 bit processor or was PC based or had USB interface or flash memory
or a terrabyte of RAM and a network interface etc etc etc is really
pretty irrelevant to overall manufacturing costs and the success of
the venture. Are there enough people willing to buy a new machine?
If there is, everything else can be sorted if these guys can come up
with a worthwhile product. But even if they came out with MM V7.0,
their backs will most likely still be against the wall. Only time
will tell.
pinba...@earthlink.net (The_Black_Knight) wrote in message news:<90c28966.04042...@posting.google.com>...
bluesteve
The incredible Denise Howzat!!!!!!!!
For starters, the person (male) this game is based around is actually
called Dennis Lillee. Famous cult figure Australian fast bowler (sort
of like a baseball pitcher that keeps his arm straight when throwing
the ball)
"Howzat", actually when spelt out if a fast way of calling out - "How
is that??" Its called an "appeal" - something that you do when you
think that you have dismissed the batsman with your efforts. The
umpire then rules on the appeal.
Mrs Denise Howzat would probably achieve cult figure status in Aus
should she exist! Just like the infamous "Michelle Slamdunk" (Michael
Jordan's missus)
Cheers -
Steve
"Mr. Shawn Banting" <mr_ba...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<lOifc.13990$dg7.11903@edtnps84>...
> Dan Nix wrote:
> > http://www.pinballnews.com/news/australia.html
> >
> > I thought Gene and Gary held the patents and trademarks on the devices
> > of a pinball machine i.e. flippers, VUK, slingshots, etc. Will this
> > company be paying to use these patents? Will the market support
> > another maker? Anyone know "the rest of this story"?
> >
> > Dan
>
>
>
> I hope the first machine is Howzat II! I can see it working, cricket is
> popular around the world and Denise Howzat is a cult figure.
>
> I have an original Howzat, probably the only one in North America and it
> rocks. You might get the four ball multi ball after about 20 minutes of
> hard work. If you last that long.
>
> Mr. Banting
bluesteve
storks_n...@hotmail.com (Peter Hall) wrote in message news:<d7a51fc9.0404...@posting.google.com>...
> Denise is a girl's name and Dennis Lilley was for sure not a Sheila.
>
> "Howzat!" is what a cricketer asks of the umpire when he thinks the
> batsman should be out.
>
> Dennis Lilley is the former Ozzie fast bowler that the Hankin game
> "Howzat!" is based on - I'd say he was (past tense) a cult figure for
> his bowling skills (I think he retired in the late 70s), the aluminium
> bat controversy and the unforgettable (and amusing) faux-pas of asking
> the Queen for her autograph!
>
> Regards from Switzerland,
> Peter
Alan 'A.J.' Franzman
<news:4f69784d.04041...@posting.google.com>:
> Personally, I'm holding out for Nixie tubes....
Nah, that's been done...
--
--------------------
Alan "A.J." Franzman
Email: a.j.franzman at verizon dot net
--------------------
David Gersic
> Whereas I commend Stern for sticking with it, when even the top dog
> (Williams) threw in the towel, Stern's pinballs have not advanced by
> much since when Sega was running the show.
Bunk. Williams got out of pinball because they wanted to make more money
making slot machines. Stern's games most certainly *have* advanced, in
design and gameplay, since the last of the Sega titles.
> This has to do a lot with
> the system they are using, among other things. Stern is not capable
> of supporting a color LCD screen right now.
Why this fascination with adding large colour screens to pinball? You got a
way to watch this fancy screen while you're playing? Me, I'm busy watching
the ball, and the playfield, and really couldn't care less what the DMD is
showing since I can't see it anyway. The only times I see the display are
between balls, whenever the game stops play for some useless animation, and
for the absolutely worthless "video modes" that some games include.
What would they do, supposing for a minute that they had a big colour LCD
to do it with? More useless animations? Yippie. Maybe more video modes?
Yeah, I'd be looking forward to that. A fancier bonus count at the end of
ball? Well *that* would certainly justify the cost.
> Even if they introduced a
> uber-chipset and had mega memory and a fast processor, they still have
> to make the graphics to support the LCD, which is one of the primary
> reasons why pinball 2000 was a failure.
I'm sorry, but at least in Williams' terms P2K was a success, not a
failure. The P2K games outsold the WPC games that preceded them. Operators
were *buying* P2K games. The same operators that were *not* buying WPC
games.
> transistors), Stern needs to take a chance and start making non-themed
> pinballs.
Why? Is it going to make the games more fun to play? Note that some of the
most popular games here in RGP land are licensed themes (TZ, TAF). LOTR and
TSPP seem pretty popular, too, though we'll see if that stands the test of
time. Note that the highest selling game of all time (TAF) is a license.
Stern's experience seems to be that non-licensed them games don't sell as
well as licensed-theme games. Face it, Stern's going to make what sells,
because they want to stay in business.
--
| David Gersic dgersic_@_niu.edu |
| Me knew spell chucker work grate! Knead Gramma Chicken! |
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