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Williams Flipper Games Woodrail Legs Manifesto
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seanspin...@gmail.com
Dec 9, 2015, 9:17:15 AM12/9/15
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This thread:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/woodrail$20legs/rec.games.pinball/l2sKAyj8zhg/oBl7tfYnfqQJ
...made me curious about Williams woodie legs which I'd thought I'd figured out, but it turns out not so much thanks to everyone's excellent feedback...yes, both here and on Spinside. ;o)
Anyways...I recently moved my storage location to shelf in my workshop for all my wood legs. This allowed me to line them all up by length easily since they all backed up to a wall, and therefore stuck out different lengths. I found out ALOT about the legs I THOUGHT I had, and how badly these got mismatched over the years. I had lots of legs marked as WLMS that were actually GTB legs - which I still believe are ALL 31" from just before the first flipper games, all the way to Harbor Lights(first metal leg game).
But Williams is a different story. Basicially, it appears that they changed the leg length everytime they changed the cabinet. Thier first flipper game(Sunny/Stormy), and the next one Tennessee, had an older flipperless style deeper cabinets, and shorter legs...I believe these took 30" legs, but being such a small sample, and the fact that I don't own alot of flipperless, I'm kinda assuming the length on that one by what I do have in stock. But after Tennessee, they changed the cabinet, making it much shallower...these games continued for a couple years until Pinky near the end of 1950. These game's cabs features no motor board, and everything is attached to the bottom of the PF. Another way to tell on the outside is the rails on the head are flush...after Pinky they stick out on the edges and top - making them a PITA to store BTW. :o)
When WLMS changed the cab to make it deeper, I think to accommodate the re-added motor board, the cabinet became one inch deeper - I verified this on games I own. I believe this is when they switched from 33.5" legs, to 32.5" ones that they continued until they went to metal legs in 1956. This makes sense too, not only by judging the ratio of legs I own to # of years they used those legs for, but also since in the end you wanted all of the games to at about the same level. I believe the GTB cab was just slightly deeper, or maybe it's bolt-hole config was slightly different too, which would make them close to the same height when set up.
I used my 57(!) sets of wooden legs, and my own games, and ALOT of IPDB research to come up with these findings...please provide feedback if you agree or disagree.
I also found out through this re-org that I have many extra sets of GTB legs...and not enough of either kind of WLMS legs. SO...
If you need 31" GTB legs, and have some 32.5 or 33.5 inch WLMS legs you like to trade with me...please LMK! I go to the Allentown and York shows every year and could meet you there easily....shipping might be expensive, but I'm not against it outright. I'm also obviously not in a huge hurry...
Sean
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.pinball/woodrail$20legs/rec.games.pinball/l2sKAyj8zhg/oBl7tfYnfqQJ
...made me curious about Williams woodie legs which I'd thought I'd figured out, but it turns out not so much thanks to everyone's excellent feedback...yes, both here and on Spinside. ;o)
Anyways...I recently moved my storage location to shelf in my workshop for all my wood legs. This allowed me to line them all up by length easily since they all backed up to a wall, and therefore stuck out different lengths. I found out ALOT about the legs I THOUGHT I had, and how badly these got mismatched over the years. I had lots of legs marked as WLMS that were actually GTB legs - which I still believe are ALL 31" from just before the first flipper games, all the way to Harbor Lights(first metal leg game).
But Williams is a different story. Basicially, it appears that they changed the leg length everytime they changed the cabinet. Thier first flipper game(Sunny/Stormy), and the next one Tennessee, had an older flipperless style deeper cabinets, and shorter legs...I believe these took 30" legs, but being such a small sample, and the fact that I don't own alot of flipperless, I'm kinda assuming the length on that one by what I do have in stock. But after Tennessee, they changed the cabinet, making it much shallower...these games continued for a couple years until Pinky near the end of 1950. These game's cabs features no motor board, and everything is attached to the bottom of the PF. Another way to tell on the outside is the rails on the head are flush...after Pinky they stick out on the edges and top - making them a PITA to store BTW. :o)
When WLMS changed the cab to make it deeper, I think to accommodate the re-added motor board, the cabinet became one inch deeper - I verified this on games I own. I believe this is when they switched from 33.5" legs, to 32.5" ones that they continued until they went to metal legs in 1956. This makes sense too, not only by judging the ratio of legs I own to # of years they used those legs for, but also since in the end you wanted all of the games to at about the same level. I believe the GTB cab was just slightly deeper, or maybe it's bolt-hole config was slightly different too, which would make them close to the same height when set up.
I used my 57(!) sets of wooden legs, and my own games, and ALOT of IPDB research to come up with these findings...please provide feedback if you agree or disagree.
I also found out through this re-org that I have many extra sets of GTB legs...and not enough of either kind of WLMS legs. SO...
If you need 31" GTB legs, and have some 32.5 or 33.5 inch WLMS legs you like to trade with me...please LMK! I go to the Allentown and York shows every year and could meet you there easily....shipping might be expensive, but I'm not against it outright. I'm also obviously not in a huge hurry...
Sean
bar...@comcast.net
Dec 9, 2015, 12:04:57 PM12/9/15
to
If all goes as planned I'll be at Allentown again this year in the back corner of the Indoor Flea Market along the wall (as long as I get the same space as last year). I'll have a bunch of wooden legs with me for sale and would be more than happy to trade legs with you if I have stuff you want or need.
Last year I sold all I had with me but most request were for Gottlieb legs so if you need Williams and want to trade Gottlieb for them that will work for me. Or if you just want to buy legs I am fine with that also.
My prices last year were $25 to $40 a matched set (depending on cosmetic condition) or $5 to $10 for single odd legs. I'll be in about the same range this year and this year will likely be the end of wooden legs for me.
Duncan Brown
Dec 11, 2015, 8:57:20 AM12/11/15
to
Anyone written a manifesto on Genco woodrail legs? I'm still working on
this Triple Action for a friend and finally got it up on its legs and
they're just wrong. Way too tall (39.5" at the handrail!) The legs are
32.5" long and the bolt distance from the top of the leg looks pretty
standard, while the flyer on ipdb looks to have bolt holes much farther
from the top of the leg.
So these are probably Williams legs, right? I'm guessing there is no
hope of finding some loose Genco legs out in the world at this point...
Duncan
this Triple Action for a friend and finally got it up on its legs and
they're just wrong. Way too tall (39.5" at the handrail!) The legs are
32.5" long and the bolt distance from the top of the leg looks pretty
standard, while the flyer on ipdb looks to have bolt holes much farther
from the top of the leg.
So these are probably Williams legs, right? I'm guessing there is no
hope of finding some loose Genco legs out in the world at this point...
Duncan
seanspin...@gmail.com
Dec 11, 2015, 12:55:25 PM12/11/15
to
I did get to move my Genco Tri-Score project games from storage into the workshop, so I can check the measurements on those cabinets, then send them to you so you can compare the Triple Action. If they're the same, then I can try some of those oddballs and 30" legs to see if the holes match up and we'll know they match yours too.
It's possible that Genco used GTB legs...maybe got them from the same supplier? I know one of the lesser manufacturers used all Williams parts to build their machines...Steve Young told me that once, but I can't remember which company it was...
Sean
Duncan Brown
Dec 11, 2015, 1:01:31 PM12/11/15
to
centers, and 9" from the center of the top bolt hole, to the top of the
handrail. The flyer here shows a crazy amount of leg above the top bolt
hole:
http://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2650&picno=51405
The full game pictured here looks to be about what I'm dealing with:
standard legs that are way too long:
http://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2650&picno=16885
Duncan
seanspin...@gmail.com
Dec 11, 2015, 2:17:23 PM12/11/15
to
http://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2640&picno=53490
The cabinet is quite different. TA has that over hanging back box in the back, and TS doesn't. The lockdown bars also look different. But the coin door and other hardware on the front of the cab look the same.
Of course you can't always trust flyer pics, but the legs look different to me too - I see what you mean on TA with alot of leg above the bolts...TS doesn't look like that - in the picture at least.
I'll get back later when I can get home and compare measurements...
Sean
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