One thing I **love* about the 3 new Sterns, especially Avatar...........
Pinball Wizard
Examples....
Inlanes- for YEARS inlane completion has given bonus X mostly. On BBH
it builds toward ELK MB, on IM they work with the top lanes, and give
you a "shield". On AVATAR they enable a character for Navi MB.
SIde targets- gone are the days where side targets light a kickback,
or as in IJ4 kinda work alone for a cheesy mode. BBH give a mystery
award. IM's give you fast scoring. AVA has NAVI on the left and
Seeds on the right, PLUS those 2 target banks are jackpot shots too.
That is a FIRST to me. And on all 3 games the orbits build toward
stuff - ELk MB, Monger, Bomber Battle.
Now they just need to do something to give the pops a bigger role than
scoring piddly points and only being useful in the game where there is
a "number of switch hits" mode. SM kept having "levels" of pops but
it wasn't anything fantastic.
T
TheKorn
06735c...@t35g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
> Inlanes- for YEARS inlane completion has given bonus X mostly. On BBH
> it builds toward ELK MB, on IM they work with the top lanes, and give
> you a "shield". On AVATAR they enable a character for Navi MB.
No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about.
Hiigh Speed, Roolergames: inlane lights a hurry-up shot on the opposite
orbit.
Quuicksilver: inlane lights opposite spinner (big points!)
Fuunhouse: inlane qualifies mystery mirror (this is HUGE!)
LOTR: inlanes light sword locks
BK2K: (left) inlane lights hurry-up MB
And let's go way back... HAUUNTED HOUSE: Activates the trap door to the
lower playfield (big!).
And those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
> SIde targets- gone are the days where side targets light a kickback,
> or as in IJ4 kinda work alone for a cheesy mode. BBH give a mystery
> award. IM's give you fast scoring.
So the award changed, but it's still an instant thing. (twirling finger)
> AVA has NAVI on the left and
> Seeds on the right, PLUS those 2 target banks are jackpot shots too.
> That is a FIRST to me. And on all 3 games the orbits build toward
> stuff - ELk MB, Monger, Bomber Battle.
Never played BBB, eh? Or DW? Or MA? Or hell, even NASCAR?
> Now they just need to do something to give the pops a bigger role than
> scoring piddly points and only being useful in the game where there is
> a "number of switch hits" mode. SM kept having "levels" of pops but
> it wasn't anything fantastic.
You mean like AFM, DW, CFTBL, or TO?
I'm not trying to dog you out, but I haven't seen any really original
ideas come out of stern since they effectively fired everybody, and nor
do I expect to.
--
Have a home video that's trapped on your camera? Want to share it on the
web or on DVD?
cody chunn
It is one major characteristic to Sterns that makes the B/W games seem quite
stale by comparison.
--
--\
=cody>
--/
"Pinball Wizard" <twp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:300dc67e-c608-477e...@t35g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Kingpin
> Yes, one thing Stern has really pushed the envelope on is shot multiplexing.
> It is one major characteristic to Sterns that makes the B/W games seem quite
> stale by comparison.
>
> --
> --\
> =cody>
> --/
>
>
> news:300dc67e-c608-477e...@t35g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > There may not be as many "toys", but the shots themselves DO more.
> > Examples....
>
> > Inlanes- for YEARS inlane completion has given bonus X mostly. On BBH
> > it builds toward ELK MB, on IM they work with the top lanes, and give
> > you a "shield". On AVATAR they enable a character for Navi MB.
>
> > SIde targets- gone are the days where side targets light a kickback,
> > or as in IJ4 kinda work alone for a cheesy mode. BBH give a mystery
> > award. IM's give you fast scoring. AVA has NAVI on the left and
> > Seeds on the right, PLUS those 2 target banks are jackpot shots too.
> > That is a FIRST to me. And on all 3 games the orbits build toward
> > stuff - ELk MB, Monger, Bomber Battle.
>
> > Now they just need to do something to give the pops a bigger role than
> > scoring piddly points and only being useful in the game where there is
> > a "number of switch hits" mode. SM kept having "levels" of pops but
> > it wasn't anything fantastic.
>
> > T
+1x3000 nice post Cody.
Pinball Life
game. Also, until recently anyway, Stern's rule set's had more depth
and diversity. Wms/Bally WPC era games basically only had 2 rules
sets; the rule of 3, and play modes while locking balls for
multiball. Not that Stern never falls prey to those rule sets, but
games like Family Guy and Spider-Man shook it up in a good way. Stern
can also get lazy with the rule set and the next thing you know the
player is hitting the IJ4 ark a billion times per game. Plenty of
positive and negitives to see from all makers, it just comes down to
what you like and don't like.
Personally, I am sick and tired of the stand-ups on both sides of the
mid-playfield on Stern games. I don't care what they do or don't do.
They are always there these days and it's gone stale, stale, stale.
"Bonus multiplier" is the lazy thing for return and out lanes to do,
but plenty of games mix it up. RBION's left return lane is my
favorite, probably because it took me a couple years to figure out
what it did! As for all the lanes (return, out, and rollover) being
hooked together, IM is not the first Stern game to do this. T3 does
this after the Assualt mode has been lit and played the first time.
Still, it's good to see someone trying to find positives in the new
Stern games. It's refreshing in the middle of all the bashing.
Terry.
Ron Lyons
games, or the fun factor) from anybody who's bought one. Maybe that's
because the only people that bought them were people who played them
and loved them first, I don't know.
All the negativity in general has came from people who decided not to
buy. Even most of the bitching about the Avatar LE cutting
everybody's throat was by people who hadn't bought the regular
version.
doghouse
Hey Terry---
OT, but what DOES RBION's left return lane do? Own one but can't
figure that one out.
KenH
Not that I would bash any pinball, but I thought I was typically a B/W
guy until I went to the PHOF. Don't get me wrong, I still love B/W,
but I found myself gravitating back to all the newer Stern games. (By
newer, I mean anything from Roller Coaster Tycoon to present). About
the only one I didn't care for was WPT, but that was probably because
I didn't have a lot of time to get to know it.
Jonny O
I wouldn't say I'm "sick and tired" but I agree, after two games with
lots of left/right standups, it's time for something else. BBH just
had pappy's porch 3-bank, I think, and it was pretty useful (add-a-
ball, I think, during multi).
CEllison
> mid-playfield on Stern games. I don't care what they do or don't do.
> They are always there these days and it's gone stale, stale, stale.
A FRIGGIN MEN!!!
What does inbreeding and sterns pins have in common? They all start to
look and act the same ;)
Jason
> Pinball Wizard <twp1...@gmail.com> wrote in news:300dc67e-c608-477e-9d9f-
> 06735c955...@t35g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
I think if you read what he's describing instead of jumping all over
him, you'll realize he's describing jet lanes above the pop bumpers as
now doing more than 2x, 3x, etc.
Stern's rulesheets are overall above and beyond move of the B/W stuff,
especially on their best. Some will never give Stern credit for
anything, but the fact remains that there is no B/W game which has as
deep and varied rulesets as TSPP, LOTR, etc.
machine.slave
required skill again.. :(
Max Badazz
You obviously don't know anything about pinball or have good taste :-)
Chris (in NH)
http://usergallery.myhomegameroom.com/gallery/maxbadazz
TheKorn
news:fec41956-3b21-47d8...@l17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
> I think if you read what he's describing instead of jumping all over
> him, you'll realize he's describing jet lanes above the pop bumpers as
> now doing more than 2x, 3x, etc.
I didn't jump all over him, I disagreed with him and cited examples of why.
Didn't help that he misused a very specific pinball term. (Inlanes return
the ball to the flippers, vs outlanes which send the ball to the outhole.)
> Stern's rulesheets are overall above and beyond move of the B/W stuff,
> especially on their best. Some will never give Stern credit for
> anything, but the fact remains that there is no B/W game which has as
> deep and varied rulesets as TSPP, LOTR, etc.
While I agree that TSPP and LOTR have great rule sets, I wouldn't say that
no B/W game has as deep and varied a ruleset, and I also wouldn't say that
the average Stern ruleset is better than the average BMW ruleset.
Quick! Name a Stern game *without* Frenzy as a mode. Can't be done.
Datafry
games. I'm tired of the damn magnet trend they are in. Thats what
has been the big put off for me with the last few sterns.
Rare Hero
> Quick! Name a Stern game *without* Frenzy as a mode. Can't be done.
TSPP - D'oh Frenzy isn't really a mode (not a TV mode, anyway)
LOTR - Sure there's Ring Frenzy ...but again, none of the Ring Modes
are a Frenzy.
Greg
Pin Lord
SM.
Abby Normal
I really enjoy the hell out of my FG. But I have to say I don't want
anything Avatard related in my house.
That's one I may play if I saw it on location. Not that hating the
theme always means I'll hate the game. Wheel was an awful theme, but
pretty fun to play. And I'd buy a Sopranos in a heartbeat, and I've
never watched the show.
seymour.shabow
> Jason <react...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:fec41956-3b21-47d8...@l17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I think if you read what he's describing instead of jumping all over
>> him, you'll realize he's describing jet lanes above the pop bumpers as
>> now doing more than 2x, 3x, etc.
>
> I didn't jump all over him, I disagreed with him and cited examples of why.
> Didn't help that he misused a very specific pinball term. (Inlanes return
> the ball to the flippers, vs outlanes which send the ball to the outhole.)
>
Besides, you did say "no offense" first!
I wouldn't call the top lanes inlanes - I'd call those top rollover
lanes. If he means those, people have complained about what they
complete or don't complete for years..... in the 70s it was A-B-C lights
extra ball. (At least on GTB multiplayers) but yes, usually they did
light multipliers. But really what else should they light?? Some of em
light pop bumpers, etc.
-scott CARGPB#29
KenH
...BUT, IF I'D ONLY HAD MORE TIME!!!!!! NOOOOO! DON'T MAKE ME
LEAVE!!!!! JUST ONE MORE GAME!!!!
Kingpin
Name one B/W game that is even close to TSPP and LOTR. Can't be
done.
Seriously Korn? I expected better from you.
Max Badazz
I think Korn is anti-Stern right now. :-)
Seems like a cover for really liking the LOTR LE backglass
Abby Normal
> Name one B/W game that is even close to TSPP and LOTR. Can't be
> done.
>
> Seriously Korn? I expected better from you.
I know I'm alone here, but I really grew to hate LOTR.
Pin Lord
Not alone...that clunkfest called LOTR really does blow.
TheKorn
news:5f86629e-de74-4e24...@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com:
> Name one B/W game that is even close to TSPP and LOTR. Can't be
> done.
Depends, how are you judging them? By sheer length of the rulesheet, as
fun games, or something else? LOTR is a fun game, TSPP is not, so I'd say
that the vast majority of BMW games beat TSPP.
WPT has a rather lengthy ruleset, but without surgery it's just not a fun
game to play.
> Seriously Korn? I expected better from you.
Excuse me, but exactly WTF does that mean?
You expected me to fall in line with community opinion, regardless of
whether it matches my opinion or not? Well if you expected that, then you
don't know me very well at all. I will not apologize for merely having an
opinion, nor will I apologize that my opinion does not match yours.
TheKorn
8c3f82...@j21g2000vba.googlegroups.com:
>> Seriously Korn? I expected better from you.
>
> I think Korn is anti-Stern right now. :-)
> Seems like a cover for really liking the LOTR LE backglass
Hehe, no, I'm not anti-stern. I really should pick up a family guy, for
example.
But at the same time, I'm fully willing to say that Stern hasn't produced
anything that really lit my fire since FG. BBH almost got there, but
didn't quite get over the hump, so I give them 1/2 on that one.
Mainly the problem is that I find myself playing new Stern games and not
giving a shit. Really. It's just that it's all been *done*. I did really
enjoy the audio program on Iron Man, which was cool, but the layout has
been *done*. The buck toy on BBH was cool, and overall the programming was
pretty good. But I play avatar and am just BORED OFF MY ASS with it. Same
thing with batman; outside of trying to beat whoever I'm playing against
the games simply just don't give me a reason to care why I'm playing them.
The magic juice was costed out of the bill of materials, and it shows.
TheKorn
af00-fd6...@y23g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
> I know I'm alone here, but I really grew to hate LOTR.
My problem is that I just got burned out on LOTR. It was everywhere for a
few years. Though I still think it's a really great game, if somebody has
one I won't play it by choice; it's like seeing a Seinfeld episode for the
fiftyth time.
FritzThePin
curious why you spelled things in your first post with 2 U's.. I dont
uunderstand
Rare Hero
> > Quick! Name a Stern game *without* Frenzy as a mode. Can't be done.
>
> SM.
*bbzzzzzz* Bonesaw is a frenzy.
Greg
metallik
> no B/W game has as deep and varied a ruleset, and I also wouldn't say tha
No B/W game can touch TSPP in rule depth or breadth. Now, TSPP is an
outlier compared toother Sterns; LOTR probably as well, but again, no
B/W is close to beating TSPP. The most complex B/W games (TZ, TNG,
IJ, Shadow) match TSPP in modes, main multiball, secondary multiballs
and "toy" features, but TSPP's six wizard modes (and the potential
stacking of same) put TSPP at a level no B/W can match.
cody chunn
gold.
The names were intentionally misspelled so they don't show up in a name
search (because the discussion isn't relevant to anything important
specifically).
--
--\
=cody>
--/
"FritzThePin" <butte...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1cf93fc3-f48e-41cf...@p14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
phishrace
> The magic juice was costed out of the bill of materials, and it shows.
Well if that's how you measure a game, you should order an Avatar LE.
Indy probably had a huge BOM. That didn't work out too well. The
length and cost of the BOM has nothing to do with whether the game is
fun or not. AFM proved that. The last 3 Stern games have been
noticeably better (funner) than the previous 3. Would you agree with
that?
-phish
cody chunn
like...I dunno...chocolate sex. MMmmmmm, chocolate sex...
--
--\
=cody>
--/
"metallik" <larry...@dlptech.com> wrote in message
news:cc88a888-2f29-4f61...@l17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
cody chunn
--
--\
=cody>
--/
"phishrace" <phis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5a770178-4860-4604...@f20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
metallik
> Kingpin <casey.bry...@gmail.com> wrote innews:5f86629e-de74-4e24...@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Name one B/W game that is even close to TSPP and LOTR. Can't be
> > done.
>
> Depends, how are you judging them? By sheer length of the rulesheet, as
> fun games, or something else? LOTR is a fun game, TSPP is not, so I'd say
> that the vast majority of BMW games beat TSPP.
"Fun" is objective, and lack of "fun" is your opinion. I think TSPP
is a blast. You can certainly think it's not fun, but that doesn't
change the ruleset, nor make any B/W game deeper or more complex.
> You expected me to fall in line with community opinion, regardless of
> whether it matches my opinion or not? Well if you expected that, then you
We expect you to separate facts from your opinion :) Not liking a
game is fine, but don't claim B/W games are as complex as TSPP - that
simply doesn't hold water.
> don't know me very well at all. I will not apologize for merely having an
> opinion, nor will I apologize that my opinion does not match yours.
I could spend 20 minutes analyzing and itemizing the rulesets of these
games (more than I did below) and PROVE that TSPP has more going on
than any game to roll out of WMS's doors, but I really don't think
that is necessary... :) Also, a lot of OPL hates TSPP as well...
I'm not questioning your opinion on THAT, just your rules claim.
Joe Jet
> I love posts that start with "I love posts that start with..." pure internet
> gold.
>
> The names were intentionally misspelled so they don't show up in a name
> search (because the discussion isn't relevant to anything important
> specifically).
>
> --
> --\
> =cody>
> --/
>
>
> news:1cf93fc3-f48e-41cf...@p14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > i love posts that start with "no offense, but".. pure internet gold
>
> > curious why you spelled things in your first post with 2 U's.. I dont
> > uunderstand
"Thats gold Jerry! gold!"
FritzThePin
> I love posts that start with "I love posts that start with..." pure internet
> gold.
>
> The names were intentionally misspelled so they don't show up in a name
> search (because the discussion isn't relevant to anything important
> specifically).
>
> --
> --\
> =cody>
> --/
>
>
> news:1cf93fc3-f48e-41cf...@p14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > i love posts that start with "no offense, but".. pure internet gold
>
> > curious why you spelled things in your first post with 2 U's.. I dont
> > uunderstand
thanks for the clarification codychunn
TheKorn
723c49...@f20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 22, 2:39 pm, TheKorn <TheK...@TheKorn.Net> wrote:
>> The magic juice was costed out of the bill of materials, and it shows.
>
> Well if that's how you measure a game, you should order an Avatar LE.
That was really a half joke, because you can't cost out an intangible.
;)
> Indy probably had a huge BOM.
Why do you say that? The entire mini-playfield was costed out. The only
thing that cost any money was the license and the ark, and the ark is a
simple motor mech. I'd guess that indy probably cost right in line with
what the original spidey cost to make. (two motors vs. one, green goblin
mech, but indy had a second set of optos/trough.)
> The
> length and cost of the BOM has nothing to do with whether the game is
> fun or not. AFM proved that.
I would call AFM a bad example; it has a lot of stuff on the playfield
for being fairly open and long.
> The last 3 Stern games have been
> noticeably better (funner) than the previous 3. Would you agree with
> that?
No, avatar is pretty fricken dull. Translite looks cool, but the game
itself is ZZZzzzzz. Iron Man was OK to good, BBH was good to very good,
and both are more fun to play than 24 and CSI. (Still haven't even
bothered playing an NBA... :D )
TheKorn
september.org:
> That's partially why I say SimpsPinPrty is the best pin to date. It's
> like...I dunno...chocolate sex. MMmmmmm, chocolate sex...
Clearly you were much more horny on easter morning than the rest of us. :)
Jason
If you played a LOTR that was a "clunkfest" you played a terribly-
maintained/broken machine, either that or you just can't shoot a
flowing game. The flow and ball separation during the mb's (except
Fellowship) is some of the best ever. I've been "through the wall"
before it's done kicking the balls out... not a clunk or a clink
anywhere, just smooth, balanced, pinball shots with near perfect
multiball delay and great voice calls. And I think the pinball
community has spoken pretty loud and clear on that one. Then again,
you can find someone to dislike any game, no matter how amazing it is,
so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
TheKorn
news:8646707b-aaf4-4177...@q14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
>> Depends, how are you judging them? By sheer length of the rulesheet,
>> a
> s
>> fun games, or something else? LOTR is a fun game, TSPP is not, so
>> I'd
> say
>> that the vast majority of BMW games beat TSPP.
>
> "Fun" is objective, and lack of "fun" is your opinion.
Yup.
> I think TSPP is a blast. You can certainly think it's not fun, but
> that doesn't change the ruleset, nor make any B/W game deeper or more
> complex.
That's fine; I didn't say that.
>> You expected me to fall in line with community opinion, regardless of
>> whether it matches my opinion or not? Well if you expected that,
>> then you
>
> We expect you to separate facts from your opinion :) Not liking a
> game is fine, but don't claim B/W games are as complex as TSPP - that
> simply doesn't hold water.
Again, I didn't say that, full stop. Don't know why you're saying I
did.
>> don't know me very well at all. I will not apologize for merely
>> having an
>> opinion, nor will I apologize that my opinion does not match yours.
>
> I could spend 20 minutes analyzing and itemizing the rulesets of these
> games (more than I did below) and PROVE that TSPP has more going on
> than any game to roll out of WMS's doors, but I really don't think
> that is necessary... :) Also, a lot of OPL hates TSPP as well...
> I'm not questioning your opinion on THAT, just your rules claim.
I made no rules claim with regards to TSPP. Any time you give a game
two development cycles you really *should* get twice the amount of rules
on it. By the exact same token, I'm amazed that LOTR has as many rules
in it, since it didn't have the same massive amount of time in the oven.
seymour.shabow
You shouldn't be surprised that everyone doesn't have the same opinion -
LOTR was a clunk fest until the software got good. I hated it in the
beginning but now I like it. I have found that I don't like Batman as
much as I used to though - the newer software I like LESS than the
original. Strange.
I think Black Pyramid is an amazing game, and so is Tri Zone, so if YOU
don't like it you're just a hater ;) who can't play double ;)
Jason
>
> - Show quoted text -
Differing opinions is fine. I'm cool with people disliking amazing
machines. It's fun to debate. But it's like when someone says they
hate TZ because it plays way too fast for them, then I have to offer a
dissenting opinion with an explanation. To me, LOTR has such smooth
multiball play and ball separation that calling it a "clunkfest" is
bizarre to me. I'd say in closing, watch someone Destroy the Ring in
<10 seconds and tell me how clunky it plays. ;)
goatdan
> I have found that I don't like Batman as
> much as I used to though - the newer software I like LESS than the
> original. Strange.
I feel the *exact* same way about that one.
seymour.shabow
I narrowed it down to the ball savers being much shorter in the newer
rev. ;)
goatdan
> I don't mind the mid play field toys, or the lay out of the newer
> games. I'm tired of the damn magnet trend they are in. Thats what
> has been the big put off for me with the last few sterns.
Did you also dislike TAF because of the magnet? TAF's magnets are
completely and totally random which I've never really much cared for,
and for the "damn magnet trend they are in" (which has lasted two
whole games), at least these magnets are somewhat controllable by the
player. To me, the magnets on the last two games were the best used
magnets in games with the possible exception of BSD. The "hold the
ball" magnets like on TS and SM are okay, but they aren't a huge
feature to me.
seymour.shabow
Isn't there a "cheat" in TAF where you can hold the ball on the flipper
and after a minute or 2 the magnets turn off?
Some TAF machines have magnets strong enough to actually pull a held
ball OFF the flipper though. The magnet do make the center of the
playfield very dangerous, but if you shoot straight through them you're
usually ok to get to the jackpot shots, or the bear ramp for seance.
Stern's clearly using the magnets lately to add the random elements back
in to get ball times down - some players have already figured out to hit
the targets obliquely instead anyway to avoid the magnet's pull. I
think that's also why they're putting the standups on the sides too, as
side to side motion makes it more likely for the ball to drain out and
outlane, or get uncontrollably onto the slings, again hoping for an
outlane drain.
-scott CARGPB#29
cody chunn
> and after a minute or 2 the magnets turn off?
It's not a cheat. The magnets just periodically turn off for a few seconds,
whether the ball is held or not.
> Some TAF machines have magnets strong enough to actually pull a held ball
> OFF the flipper though.
I find this impossible to believe.
--
--\
=cody>
--/
--
"seymour.shabow" <seymour...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ceb0d54$0$6274$6e1e...@read.cnntp.org...
metallik
> > We expect you to separate facts from your opinion :) Not liking a
> > game is fine, but don't claim B/W games are as complex as TSPP - that
> > simply doesn't hold water.
>
> Again, I didn't say that, full stop. Don't know why you're saying I
> did.
I read this:
"While I agree that TSPP and LOTR have great rule sets, I wouldn't say
that
no B/W game has as deep and varied a ruleset, and I also wouldn't say
that
the average Stern ruleset is better than the average BMW ruleset."
..as saying some B/W games could be as deep as TSPP. I strongly
disagree :)
azpinlawyer
Me, too--Lyman fixed what wasn't broken and failed to fix what was:
all the modes are identical. In effect, the update rendered the
unique toy in the game--the crane--superfluous, as all the points are
in the Joker.
pinghetto
just couldn't like the game. The crane got old, joker toy was useless,
and the sounds were the worst. But, I must say, its the most beautiful
game Stern has made.
goatdan
I don't know if it is a scoring thing for me so much, but something
about it just feels so off to me now. When it came out, I felt that
the only things it needed was an update to make the skill shot do
something, the mystery to not always do the same thing every time, and
something to at least pretend there was some sort of skill in the
teeter totter thingie. The teeter totter remains unaddressed, the
other stuff was fixed, but a whole bunch of other stuff was added that
I just don't like much. If I had one, I would have to find the older
code.
Then again, I shouldn't be surprised -- it seems like my absolute
favorite themes (Dark Knight, Indiana Jones, Back to the Future) are
some of the worst playing games. So I end up with games that have
licensed themes that I find odd that I like. Jurassic Park and Iron
Man seem to be the two exceptions to this rule.
seymour.shabow
>> Isn't there a "cheat" in TAF where you can hold the ball on the
>> flipper and after a minute or 2 the magnets turn off?
>
> It's not a cheat. The magnets just periodically turn off for a few
> seconds, whether the ball is held or not.
>
I know they pulse in normal operation - but I thought I read somewhere
that you can just hold the balls until the magnets turn off.
>> Some TAF machines have magnets strong enough to actually pull a held
>> ball OFF the flipper though.
>
> I find this impossible to believe.
>
Saw it with my own 2 eyes. Maybe the ball wasn't completely settled in
the trap and it was just enough for the strong pulse to pull it off. It
was very surprising.
-scott CARGPB#29
metallik
> cody chunn wrote:
> >> Isn't there a "cheat" in TAF where you can hold the ball on the
> >> flipper and after a minute or 2 the magnets turn off?
>
> > It's not a cheat. The magnets just periodically turn off for a few
> > seconds, whether the ball is held or not.
>
> I know they pulse in normal operation - but I thought I read somewhere
> that you can just hold the balls until the magnets turn off.
Yep... if you hold the balls long enough, the magnets stop entirely,
so they don't burn up. You basically get one clean shot, since the
first switch closure turns 'em on again.
goatdan
> Isn't there a "cheat" in TAF where you can hold the ball on the flipper
> and after a minute or 2 the magnets turn off?
>
> Some TAF machines have magnets strong enough to actually pull a held
> ball OFF the flipper though. The magnet do make the center of the
> playfield very dangerous, but if you shoot straight through them you're
> usually ok to get to the jackpot shots, or the bear ramp for seance.
Right, and I mean I guess that even though they make the center of the
playfield very dangerous, there is very little going on in the center
of the playfield for you to worry about anyway. It doesn't block
scoop shots, and if you shoot for the long shots it usually doesn't
affect those a ton.
> Stern's clearly using the magnets lately to add the random elements back
> in to get ball times down - some players have already figured out to hit
> the targets obliquely instead anyway to avoid the magnet's pull. I
> think that's also why they're putting the standups on the sides too, as
> side to side motion makes it more likely for the ball to drain out and
> outlane, or get uncontrollably onto the slings, again hoping for an
> outlane drain.
I think you just nailed it, and that's the thing. For anyone who
complains about IM being random, I'd like to suggest that they should
get better at playing. The Whiplash magnet is a pretty random shot,
but it is high enough up on the playfield that it tends to give you
enough time to recover from it when it is playing tricks -- but the
Monger shot, if you aim your shots to the edges of the Monger, the
magnet if anything moves the ball only slightly after it hits,
allowing you to completely maintain control of the ball. What I
specifically love about the Monger magnet is that it definitely
increases the SKILL that is needed to play it safely. The kickback
does the same thing -- in single ball modes, it kicks back safely to
the right flipper. In multiball, ricochets lead to a MUCH higher
percentage chance of draining, thus making it a more dangerous shot to
hit then.
cody chunn
again. Maybe different rev levels behave differently?
--
--\
=cody>
--/
--
"metallik" <larry...@dlptech.com> wrote in message
news:a9f6ad4f-1661-40d1...@32g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
KenH
> and both are more fun to play than 24 and CSI. (Still haven't even
> bothered playing an NBA... :D )
I was pleasantly surprised by 24 and CSI. I thought they were really
fun games with the only drawback being 'so so' themes. Some great
toys on those--microscope, skull, case, building, ball polisher, and
so on.
Keith Johnson
> Why do you say that? The entire mini-playfield was costed out. The only
> thing that cost any money was the license and the ark, and the ark is a
> simple motor mech. I'd guess that indy probably cost right in line with
> what the original spidey cost to make. (two motors vs. one, green goblin
> mech, but indy had a second set of optos/trough.)
There was a mini-playfield on IJ? I must've missed that story, but
I'll admit that whole project was like constantly waking up from a bad
dream.
IJ actually had a lot of "hidden" cost, I'd say. Consider the
following:
- extra slingshot
- 11 balls installed instead of 4 (8 + 3 captive)
- extra pop bumper
- motorized captive ball shot
- scoop / captive ball eject
- motorized swordsman
The only reason I include the scoop on there is because near the end
of my time there, it was being driven home that any time you put the
ball under the playfield you're looking at quite a lot of $ to contain
it, launch it back, etc. (As opposed to simply being in a saucer or
something.) You'll probably also notice a distinct lack of scoops on
current Stern games (especially the removal of it on IM compared to
what was on AP).
Now, are those hidden costs good or bad? We can probably agree the
motorized captive ball wasn't worth its bang-for-buck (hell, we could
probably just about agree on the entire game), extra bumper is pretty
meh, extra sling was ok, but the biggest problem with the captive ball
area is that you could never watch it, so it was pretty silly. In
fact, same could probably be said for the swordsman. You might see it
moving out of the corner of your eye, but that's about it for that as
well. Combine that with the fact it looked hideous! Oh and the
scoop, that's pretty meh as well.
> No, avatar is pretty fricken dull. Translite looks cool, but the game
> itself is ZZZzzzzz. Iron Man was OK to good, BBH was good to very good,
> and both are more fun to play than 24 and CSI. (Still haven't even
> bothered playing an NBA... :D )
I generally agree with this assessment, except I probably feel the
opposite about BBH and IM. Even though IM is a pf rehash, it's pretty
fun to shoot, if maddening. BBH feels too much like I'm batting the
ball around and nothing is happening (need to shoot each thing a
zillion times before anything cool starts to happen).
Oh and one last comment about development times: TSPP did have about
1.5x normal dev time (for the era) and LOTR probably had about .75x,
but 24 had like 4-5x and we all know how that turned out. ;)
keith
Pin Lord
Nice post and I agree with everything said. And please enlighten us
about this IJ4 mini playfield.
machine.slave
Pin Lord
Yes, its news to me too...I meant the other poster that mentioned it
please enlighten us about it.
TheKorn
b0c5-4c6...@w14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
> There was a mini-playfield on IJ? I must've missed that story, but
> I'll admit that whole project was like constantly waking up from a bad
> dream.
Yeah, according to Borg the whole map room area was supposed to have a
mini above it. At least, that's what I remember; I haven't listened to
that interview since I edited it.
> IJ actually had a lot of "hidden" cost, I'd say. Consider the
> following:
>
> - extra slingshot
> - 11 balls installed instead of 4 (8 + 3 captive)
> - extra pop bumper
> - motorized captive ball shot
> - scoop / captive ball eject
> - motorized swordsman
Ohhh yeahhhhhh, it's interesting how the details of what's actually *in*
there get forgotten.
> Now, are those hidden costs good or bad? We can probably agree the
> motorized captive ball wasn't worth its bang-for-buck (hell, we could
> probably just about agree on the entire game), extra bumper is pretty
> meh, extra sling was ok, but the biggest problem with the captive ball
> area is that you could never watch it, so it was pretty silly. In
> fact, same could probably be said for the swordsman. You might see it
> moving out of the corner of your eye, but that's about it for that as
> well. Combine that with the fact it looked hideous! Oh and the
> scoop, that's pretty meh as well.
I agree; I've hated the map room ever since I played ball 1 on IJ4. It
always felt like a complete waste of space, and kind of a "oh crap, I
have this odd shaped area, what do I *do* with it!?" play. When Borg
said it was supposed to be a mini, it made a lot more sense (to me).
Didn't make it play any better, but at least the rationale seemed
reasonable.
> Oh and one last comment about development times: TSPP did have about
> 1.5x normal dev time (for the era) and LOTR probably had about .75x,
> but 24 had like 4-5x and we all know how that turned out. ;)
Hehehehehe!
I think you don't get enough credit for LOTR's software. I really enjoy
playing that game (despite still being a bit burned out on it), and was
unaware that it had a compressed time frame software-wise.
TheKorn
fc18c7...@s9g2000vby.googlegroups.com:
> Yes, its news to me too...I meant the other poster that mentioned it
> please enlighten us about it.
Listen to Borg's topcast interview; he talks about it in there IIRC.
goatdan
> Pin Lord <rduk...@gmail.com> wrote in news:944eab67-cd0e-4a24-9120-
> fc18c72d5...@s9g2000vby.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Yes, its news to me too...I meant the other poster that mentioned it
> > please enlighten us about it.
>
> Listen to Borg's topcast interview; he talks about it in there IIRC.
>
> http://www.marvin3m.com/topcast/
I think it was also discussed in a PinGame Journal. As I recall, it
was supposed to have a lower area and an upper area too.
If everything had gone into that game that was originally planned for
it, it would have had one hell of a high BOM.