Tech: Gottlieb System 80 sounds at wrong time. 2516 or 2716 ROM?
paul
Need some help. I have a Time Line that i just got going after lots
of board work. The only problem at this point is the sounds play at
the wrong time. The constant background sound is wrong, as well the
left kick back lane doesnt flash the lights before it kicks the ball
out. After lots of board swapping (mpu,driver,sound) and rom swapping
into good boards I have determined that the rom is the only possible,
It is not an original and is on a 2716 eprom rather than a 2516. Are
these chips interchangeable? Is it possible that the rom could be
corrupt but the board still boots? Is there a 2nd version of the ROM?
Thanks
Paul
Dan Beck
"paul" <phigb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a748c5bf-c89b-4b61...@m18g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...
Hi Paul,
is this sound board the old fashioned one with a 6503 and 6530 chips? If
so, then I am not sure we should be talking about 2716 or 2516 chips. If it
is the sound and speech board, then we should be talking about those
chips... I would have guessed Time Line to have the older version sound
board. Perhaps you have an incorrect sound board for your game?
Have you demonstrated that the mpu (control board) correctly triggers sounds
using a different sound board, in a different game? The four sound lines
originating on the control board may need to be examined.
It also may be as simple as having the incorrect (or corrupted, as you
mentioned)personality chip. You get funky sounds when you use a James Bond
chip in a Spider-Man game.
Regards,
Dan
paul
wrote:
> "paul" <phigby5...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Hi Dan
it is the older sound board, no speech just sounds. I tested the
sound board in a friends Time Line and it worked perfect with his mpu,
so the sound board's rom works fine. His game also has a rottendog
driver board, so the problem has to be on the mpu board. I also
tried my mpu in his game and the problem was there. The rom chip in
the mpu is not original. rather than a 2516 it is a 2716 that i
programmed. the checksum is fine and the game boots. is it possible
that there is a 2nd version of this rom out there?
Chris Hibler
Sounds 1, 2, 4, and 8 originate on the MPU board, are conveyed to the
driver board via the big, gnarly wiring harnes, are inverted on the
driver board, and go out J5 of the driver board.
As always with System 80 games, suspect your connectors first.
Next you can test the sound outputs at the MPU board with a logic
probe if you have one.
The signals are documented on page 29 of the manual
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
Dan Beck
Hi Paul,
thanks for the clarification.
It sounds like your mpu (control board) has at least one problem. When you
plugged your mpu board into your friend's game did you also see that problem
with the controlled lamp (left kick back lane)? This lamp is ultimately
governed by the U6 RIOT; this RIOT also governs your sounds. You need to
rule out more basic reasons for a controlled lamp not to work, ie lamp
socket, solders, driver transistor, connectors, etc. before you start
looking at the RIOT.
As Chris stated, the 4 sound lines are triggered on the mpu board at U6, go
through buffering chips Z27 (7404) and Z31 (7408), traverse four wires on
the mpu-driver connector, which leads to the driver board and its Z13 chip,
and then finally to the sound board. These are culprits all along these
lines that could be causing your sound trouble.
Ultimately, your sounds are governed by the U6 RIOT, as I stated before. It
could be that this U6 RIOT 6532 chip may explain both problems, but there
are many other things you need to rule out before you start looking at the
U6.
The original game prom for Time Line is a 2716 chip, just as you have, and
not a 2516. The checksum, according to John Robertson, is 0x9D4D.
Regards,
Dan
paul
Dan, Chris
Yes, the problems were still there when using my mpu in my friends
game. He has a new rottendog driver board so the problem seems to be
isolated to the mpu. I will also f/u on the checksum of the rom.
When the ball goes into the kickback on the left all the GI lights
are supposed to flash as it plays an (incorrect) sound before it kicks
it out. The flashing is presumably done through the tilt relay being
turned off and on a few times (U6?). The driver board is 100%.
There is an incorrect, repeating, background sound that begins as
soon as the game is started and before the ball is plunged that should
not be there, I'll probe the Z27 and Z31 inputs and I bet it will lead
back to U6. The 2 bits of info that were holding me back are that I
did not know that the sounds came from U6 and I thought the board
wouldn't boot if a RIOT was bad but I guess that is only if the inputs
are pulled low.
Thanks for the ideas
I will keep you posted
Paul
paul
Chris Hibler
I will wager a cold beverage (payable at Expo) that U6 is not the
issue. It will be one of the smaller discrete logic chips downstream
of U6. :-)
Dan Beck
"Chris Hibler" <ch...@Team-EM.com> wrote in message
news:5697e7a5-4681-4f74...@k4g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks for the update Paul.
> I will wager a cold beverage (payable at Expo) that U6 is not the
> issue. It will be one of the smaller discrete logic chips downstream
> of U6. :-)
Hi Chris,
I will take that wager, at the TPF next year! I have seen a game boot and
play with a flaky U6 6532 RIOT; if google search wasn't so flaked out you
could revisit the trouble I had with my Spirit game, as evidence. However,
it IS much easier (and cheaper) to deal with and diagnose the smaller
discrete chips downstream from the RIOT...
Hi Paul,
thanks for the update. As Chris suggested, a logic probe will come in
handy, here. If the tilt relay is supposed to handle the lights flashing (I
am not familiar with Time Line), then yes that relay solenoid is ultimately
driven by U6, with buffer chips downstream.
Regards,
Dan
paul
wrote:
Hi,
I tried posting a reply last night but I dont see it here this
morning.
Anyway I probed and compared to my Blackhole and they were the same
with game started and ball in the shooter lane. It was easy enough to
just start replacing chips and testing after each one. so I started
with the cheap and easy Z27 then Z31 and finally the U6 RIOT and it
still didnt make a difference. The schematics show the signal starts
at U6 and only goes through those 2 chips before its off the board.
Seems like there is something with the ROM. Ive programed 2 separate
2716's so it not the chip itself. maybe a 2nd version or
prototype??? PBR would probably hit me for $25 for a new rom that may
or may not be the problem.
Paul
paul
Chris Hibler
Have you tested the wiring loom that connects the MPU and the driver
board?
Are the card edge connectors shiny on both the MPU and the driver
board?
Are the bifurcated pins inside the connector bright, shiny, and still
springy so that they bite into the card edge?
I will wager double or nothing that the problem is not with the
ROM. :-)
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
Dan Beck
"Chris Hibler" <ch...@Team-EM.com> wrote in message
Alright...I have one cold beverage in hand (Thanks Dan!) :-)
Have you tested the wiring loom that connects the MPU and the driver
board?
Are the card edge connectors shiny on both the MPU and the driver
board?
Are the bifurcated pins inside the connector bright, shiny, and still
springy so that they bite into the card edge?
I will wager double or nothing that the problem is not with the
ROM. :-)
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
Hi Chris, and Paul!
Chris, well I owe you one also, so indeed I have a cold beverage in hand
(actually, because it is morning, it's coffee, instead...) :-)
Paul, Chris makes some good statements about connectors; they really can
cause trouble. Try swapping the mpu-driver connector from your Black Hole
into your Time Line, after you've made sure the edge connections are clean.
Would it be possible for you to test your recently burned Time Line roms in
your friend's Time Line game? This would be the gold standard test for
those roms' integrities.
Regards,
Dan
Steve Charland
control but I had to drop in and add to the fire. It sounds to me like
a faulty connection for the sound issues if the sounds are way off
from normal, it may be that the sound ROM has nothing wrong with it.
Bad connections at the sound lines can give you different sounds not
associated with the game. You guys already knew this though.
I mainly wanted to post to let you guys know that there are two
different versions of the TL sound ROM. The version that you hear more
often is the one in the black cabiet games. The sounds in the rare
blue cabinet TL's are slightly different and a little more intense. It
could be that Paul has the rarer sound ROM in his game (or he may have
a blue cabinet game), since nobody asked, everyone may be chasing
their tails. I doubt it would make any difference to the problem at
hand unless Paul knew what the sounds should be when he hears them.
Trying the ROM in a different TL would be a good thing to do but I
wouldn't throw the ROM away if it sounds different (because of this
paragraph).
The only reason I know this is because I went through the same
troubleshooting thoughts when I had both versions here at the same
time. I wanted to throw that out here for archive purposes if this was
indeed the case. I'm heading back to the PPE show and will check back
on this thread later in the evening. ;)
Steve
System 80, not just a job, it's an adventure
On Oct 2, 7:05 am, "Dan Beck" <biscuitbecks@*NOSPAM*cableone.net>
wrote:
>
paul
Dan, Chris
I have swapped around the wiring harnesses too. I think somewhere
along the line i have swapped the rom into the blackhole cpu but it
was early in the process and I wasnt looking at this problem. I can
see the signal spike with the sound while probing the Z27 chip ((pin
11 or 12?). Since the sound/pulse should not be there the problem
"should" be on the mpu rather than connector onward. Plus dont forget
its not flashing the lights before the kickback pops the ball back
out.
I will swap the rom chip into the blackhole board tonight and we will
know if im right and the program is screwy or if i owe someone a few
cold adult beverages!
i know 2 friends with TL's and I was lucky that the one guy let me
swap anything into a finicky sys80. I dont dare ask him to swap the
rom chip haha. our luck means that i will be repairing his old
socket. The other guy I would have no problem trying my rom in, just
if i go to his house I will have to repair 6 of his pins first. haha
paul
Hi Steve,
I tried my sound board in the other TL with his mpu and it had the
proper sounds + when the ball went into the left kickout the lights
flickered with that boom boom boom sound. when i place my mpu into
his game the problem was still there.
Do you still have your TL? if i email you the rom can you burn it and
try it out?
Paul
Dan Beck
< I will swap the rom chip into the blackhole board tonight and we will
<know if im right and the program is screwy or if i owe someone a few
<cold adult beverages!
Hi Paul,
I think a better experiment would be to take the Black Hole game prom out of
its mpu, place it in your Time Line mpu board, and see how well that combo
works in your BH game. The lights not flashing is a disturbing observation.
My bet is the BH will NOT be 100% functional.
Even though it sounds like the TL driver board is 100%, I would pore over it
again for the tilt relay circuit (if that is the relay that drives the
lights), and the 4 sound lines, 7404 chip, edge connectors, etc. Another
experiment would be to swap your BH driver into the TL, with the TL
mpu/chip, and see what happens, although perhaps you have done this
already...
It's too bad you can't test the TL proms in your friends' games, but I do
understand the risk involved! :-)
Regards,
Dan
Gott Lieb?
has been mentioned yet, make sure you have continuity on all of your
sound inputs and outputs at Z31. Although it's not that common, but
if you have a broken trace on CPU for any of these lines, one of the
sound signals will not be sent. A broken trace will emit the same
symptoms as a flaky connector on the interconnect harness.
One last question, and I'll sit back and watch again. Are all of your
coils firing properly and in the correct order during coil test and /
or during a game?
Jim
paul
i played one game and its perfect: solenoids, sounds, lower pf all
work fine. I put the TL rom into the BH board and put it into the TL
and the "alternate" sound is there. I think that proves there must be
a 2nd set of roms out there for the TL as Steve mentioned. Since I
tried my sound board in a friends game and it worked as expected, it
would seem that there is alse a 2nd version of the game rom (prom).
The game plays fine and if I didnt have 2 others in the club then I
would never had known something was up.
oh wow!
Back at the top of this thread Dan said
"The original game prom for Time Line is a 2716 chip, just as you
have, and
not a 2516. The checksum, according to John Robertson, is 0x9D4D. "
the checksum of my rom is 0004298F
does anyone have a spare time line rom laying around?
Paul
Chris Hibler
Is the sound clearly wrong? Or, is it just different?
If it's clearly wrong, then the "alternate ROM theory" doesn't wash.
Even though you've swapped a lot of boards and ROMs, the wiring and
connectors are still suspect.
At this point, I'd be surprised if the problem wasn't wiring or
connectors.
If it turns out to be the ROM (and check your email), I'll pay the
cold one back... :-)
Dan Beck
Hi Paul,
thanks for the experiments! When you put the TL prom in the BH mpu, into
the TL, did the lights turn on/off like they are supposed to, with the tilt
relay?
Strange. That checksum you mentioned is nowhere close to any that John
Robertson has tabulated at http://www.flippers.com/text/gottsys8.cs , for
Time Line. Now, I know nothing about the meanings of checksums; can that
data be corrupted, i.e. the checksum get changed, in the burning process?
My take on what Steve said was that there were two different SOUND proms
only, and the same game prom. Regardless, I took a look at Time Line at
www.ipdb.org , and it looks like a great drop target game!
Regards,
Dan
paul
Thanks for the email Chris and blowing away all hope for an easy
fix :-), ill see if i can get a video loaded tomorrow. the sounds it
makes are all sounds in the game but they are in the wrong places.
the background that keeps repeating on mine is the red drop targets on
everyone elses. it will be easier than trying to describe it.
BTW i checked all the dip switches to make sure it wasnt a sound
setting.
Let me recap here:
the sound board and mpu were tested in friends game. sound board was
good when tested with his mpu. the problem resurfaced with my mpu in
his game. assumed problem is with my mpu so I replaced Z31,Z27 and U6
but still has issue so I put that mpu into BH which works fine now and
have the BH board in TL with the confirmed TL rom and the issue is
still there
There isnt much of anything left besides the connectors but i dont
understand how it could be if i had the problem in my friends game....
lets say the problem is the mpu edge contacts but now I am using the
known good mpu that was in BH. I just now put the mpu and sound board
into my spiderman with a new A1J4 connector. this should rule out all
the connectors at once and it still acts up.
i appreciate all the time and help from everyone here
Paul
paul
> Since you pretty much covered everything else, and I don't think this
> has been mentioned yet, make sure you have continuity on all of your
> sound inputs and outputs at Z31. Although it's not that common, but
> if you have a broken trace on CPU for any of these lines, one of the
> sound signals will not be sent. A broken trace will emit the same
> symptoms as a flaky connector on the interconnect harness.
>
> One last question, and I'll sit back and watch again. Are all of your
> coils firing properly and in the correct order during coil test and /
> or during a game?
>
> Jim
Jim,
In solenoid test. they all fire except for the knocker, I saw on the
schematics that it runs through J5 which is the same connector as the
sound signals. The knocker/bell does work during play though. If i
put the probe on Z27 while the ball is in the shooter lane I can see
the pulse at the same time as the sound begins. I thought it would be
a problem with the sound originating when it wasnt supposed to rather
than getting lost down the line. right?
Paul
Steve Charland
Steve Charland
been documented anywhere since they were all assumed to be the same
and the black cabinet game is more prevalent. Yes, the game ROM is the
same, and yes, its fun. :)
-S (CARGPB1)
On Oct 2, 8:32 pm, "Dan Beck" <biscuitbecks@*NOSPAM*cableone.net>
wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Strange. That checksum you mentioned is nowhere close to any that John
> Robertson has tabulated athttp://www.flippers.com/text/gottsys8.cs, for
> Time Line. Now, I know nothing about the meanings of checksums; can that
> data be corrupted, i.e. the checksum get changed, in the burning process?
> My take on what Steve said was that there were two different SOUND proms
> only, and the same game prom. Regardless, I took a look at Time Line at
> www.ipdb.org, and it looks like a great drop target game!
>
> Regards,
> Dan
paul
Well turns out it was the ROM. Took my rom over to my friends game,
put it in his mpu and the sound was wrong. So we copied his original
rom and put it into my game and its back to normal, the left kickback
flashes the lights, all the sounds are playing when they should and
problem solved!!!
Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions.
Paul
paul
Well turns out it was the ROM. Took my rom over to my friends game,
Chris Hibler
A game ROM causing the wrong sounds....OK....I guess we are at least
even on the cold beverages. :-)
No matter...if we make it to the same show, I'm buying anyway.
Glad it worked out. TimeLine is a fun game. The shot up the middle to
return the ball to the shooter lane might be the toughest shot in
pinball!
> Well turns out it was the ROM. Took my rom over to my friends game,