F * This Troll
Michael Alford
Richman troll is, yet I would like to provide another nail in the
coffin, so to speak, since it's Halloween:
Richman accused tweet of calling him "double digit kyu", and we have had
discussion in another thread re this, but, hold on, sports fans, the
serve was ruled on the line, the referee has taken the ball out of
bounds under the basket, and even though the umpire called it a strike,
the booth has signaled for instant replay review...
While I freely admit to calling Richman "double digit kyu", to prick his
obese ego, Richman posts:
"No, tweet was engaging in accusations, such as I was a double digit kyu
player (who knows where he got that from)"
but, searching Google for "tweet" and "double digit kyu" turns up the
following, in which tweet quotes Ren Li quoting jb:
"Fu, Ren-Li" <f...@rogers.com> writes:
> >"-" <jazzerci...@coolmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:40233067.2123732656@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> >> Rating: 2d* 30
>> >>
>> >> Obviously the "Rating" of 2d* does not correspond to "double
digit
>> >> kyu player" nor does a "Rank" of 9p denote "probably an
amateur."
>> >> Unfortunately, "Fu, Ren-Li" had allowed his account to lapse
due to
>> >> disuse, probably because FRL's information is all guesswork, not
> >fact.
> >He *is* an amateur, jb. deal with the truth.
that is, in response to jb, Richman called a 9p, an amateur,
and tweet posted this:
How can Fu be so sure? Yang 7p, a well known pro used yly 3d* for
teaching.
Player: yly
Game: go (1)
Language: default
Rating: 3d* 32
Rated Games: 331
Rank: 7p 47
Wins: 869
Losses: 506
Last Access(GMT): (Not on) Fri Feb 6 01:00:36 2004
Last Access(local): (Not on) Fri Feb 6 10:00:36 2004
Address: yan...@earthlink.net
Country: NET
Reg date: Thu Mar 31 12:17:55 1994
Info: I love teaching, I love my students.
Searching further we find this exchange:
> > "Tweedie" <t...@xunil.fi> wrote:
>> >> Shusaku is a current IGS PandaNet member, and registered with IGS
>> >> PandaNet Tue, Jun 16, 09:38:08, 1998.
"Fu, Ren-Li" <f...@rogers.com> wrote:
> > Yeah but your shusaku is probably an amateur. I'll take a wild guess
> > and say he's a double digit kyu player.
Player: Shusaku
Rating: 2d* 30
Rated Games: 6485
Rank: 9p 49
Wins: 1600
Losses: 1364
Address: panda@.jp
Info: <none>
NOWHERE do we find any post by tweet calling Richman "double digit kyu',
yet we find posts by Richman calling a 9p an amateur and a double digit
kyu player. Not only has Richman engaged in false attributions without
proof against tweet, he's called a 9p a "double digit kyu".
So, the flag on the field thrown against tweet has been picked up, and
Richman is assessed two personal deadball fouls, one for offside and one
for taunting.
Yours,
Michael
tweet
Since this is not about your IGS account, I will respond to two of these,
and the rest I believe know about your claims to a dan rank were flamed
by most of the news group at that time.
Here are the two below I will use as an example:
> Here is tweet denying I had a winning board position versus an IGS 2
> dan, and then making up some other excuses why I might have possibly
> won the game:
>
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.go/tree/browse_frm/thread/cd53dd564576724e/a1f208a428bd442b?rnum=1&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.games.go%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Fcd53dd564576724e%2Fbc10c106ab831b11%3Flnk%3Dst%26q%3D%26rnum%3D5%26hl%3Den%26#doc_bc10c106ab831b11
> (I have a strong feeling tweet disconnected me from IGS when he saw me
> winning)
>
> When I started to argue with tweet's illogic, he accused me of
> BRAGGING!:
>
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.go/tree/browse_frm/thread/71d3e66846a4ba13/be859719791e0773?rnum=41&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.games.go%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F71d3e66846a4ba13%2Fa0bb4b8a51cb492c%3Flnk%3Dst%26q%3D%26rnum%3D6%26hl%3Den%26#doc_be859719791e0773
In the above you say (I have a strong feeling tweet disconnected me from IGS
when he saw me winning), and you mention bragging. If one were to look further
down the URL you cited, it shows that Peter Stremple's prediction about
you was true. :)
From: Peter Strempel <peterstrem...@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Shall we play ?
Date: 3 Apr 2004 14:25:12 GMT
> Lol, I would love to see this after all of the posts I have read.
Same here.
Actually it's a win-win situation for Richman.
* If he wins, he can brag about it.
* If he loses, he can flame IGS manipulated the game to make him lose.
Both cases would provide us with many posts on this newsgroup. I personally
find the current entertainment level quite high. :)
Peter
Renli wrote:
>
>
> Tweet saying I am a braggart (implying I am not the strength on my
> account):
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.go/tree/browse_frm/thread/3e0ab3c826c58c8c/9c4e79c53047bfa1?rnum=1&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.games.go%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F3e0ab3c826c58c8c%2F844a74f8d9860579%3Flnk%3Dst%26q%3D%26rnum%3D3%26hl%3Den%26#doc_704888cbc3f5a17d
>
> Tweet saying I am a kyu strength player and claiming "two korean pros"
> confirmed his "opinion":
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.go/tree/browse_frm/thread/3e0ab3c826c58c8c/5467e97146a36106?rnum=11&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.games.go%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F3e0ab3c826c58c8c%2F844a74f8d9860579%3Flnk%3Dst%26q%3D%26rnum%3D3%26hl%3Den%26#doc_a3dc7c65453429af
> (NOTICE this immediately violates article 2 in DSauns post!)
>
> Here is tweet denying I had a winning board position versus an IGS 2
> dan, and then making up some other excuses why I might have possibly
> won the game:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.go/tree/browse_frm/thread/cd53dd564576724e/a1f208a428bd442b?rnum=1&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.games.go%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Fcd53dd564576724e%2Fbc10c106ab831b11%3Flnk%3Dst%26q%3D%26rnum%3D5%26hl%3Den%26#doc_bc10c106ab831b11
> (I have a strong feeling tweet disconnected me from IGS when he saw me
> winning)
>
> When I started to argue with tweet's illogic, he accused me of
> BRAGGING!:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.go/tree/browse_frm/thread/71d3e66846a4ba13/be859719791e0773?rnum=41&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.games.go%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F71d3e66846a4ba13%2Fa0bb4b8a51cb492c%3Flnk%3Dst%26q%3D%26rnum%3D6%26hl%3Den%26#doc_be859719791e0773
>
> Well, for fun, we can also establish that tweet does not treat people
> with respect. The shocking irrelevancy of this post is proof enough:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.go/browse_frm/thread/c2339cddf07dda2/622756d150b83481?lnk=st&q=&rnum=2&hl=en#622756d150b83481
>
> For more fun here is a statement by tweet:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.go/tree/browse_frm/thread/73d2fbb0a7c87984/0b9fb310dc164b53?rnum=1&hl=en&_done=%2Fgroup%2Frec.games.go%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2F73d2fbb0a7c87984%2F97a4b1147b250d15%3Flnk%3Dst%26q%3D%26rnum%3D4%26hl%3Den%26#doc_f7c907aa8861bbd8
> (NOTE: If tweet EVER provided logs to support his accusations I *WILL*
> catch him in a lie, he knows this and will not provide logs. But they
> will say there are logs! Just not show them to anyone.)
>
> I can do this all day, if I wanted to - It is obvious tweet is a very
> nasty and difficult to deal with person, he will resort to all manner
> of lies and tricks to discredit someone, and his cronies malf and jb do
> the exact same thing. I could post countless citations of malf and jb
> echoing tweet's words, but what is the point. Tweet is the real villan.
> Remove him from his post as IGS Administrator. Please.
>
> -
>
-
"Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote:
> K, lets examine the history of this idea. In 1994 we have this
> post by DSaun: [ ... ]
> Note article 2, which states:
>
> "Kibitzes that criticize a particular play or a style are appropriate
> and educational. As others have previously mentioned, kibitzes
> that demean a particular player are inconsiderate (they can be
> seen by the player's friends and, after the game, by the player
> himself). Such kibitzes also clog the game record and distract
> from other kibitz analysis of the game.
Agreed. However posts to this newsgroup are not kibitzes.
> Weak-kyu criticism of high-dan moves is often overconfident and
> sometimes is just parroted from dan comments. Lofty expressions
> of pity by any kyu observer for a high dan player are simply _ludicrous_,
> and do not elevate the reputation of the kyu player _at all_. Accusations
> that a particular player is a "fake" or shouts that a player should resign
> are just plain rude."
Well, this should not apply to a player who really -IS- a fake.
Moreover you have done "weak-kyu criticism" of stronger players.
You manage to make most of the other trolls here look like saints.
You have not explained why you have/had so many IGS accounts.
You have not supplied the promised citation for your claim(s) w/r/t
recent discussions.
> I can do this all day, if I wanted to - It is obvious tweet is a very
> nasty and difficult to deal with person, he will resort to all manner
> of lies and tricks to discredit someone, and his cronies malf and jb
> do the exact same thing. I could post countless citations of malf and
> jb echoing tweet's words, but what is the point. Tweet is the real villan.
> Remove him from his post as IGS Administrator. Please.
I think you do not understand that one purpose of Go is to weed
out contenders who do not cut the mustard, so Go is a selective force.
If you would like to be an administrator, KGS wants you to volunteer.
See if William Shubert wants to take you on board as his booty buddy.
- regards
- jb
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scientists Endorse Candidate Over Teaching of Evolution
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1726642/posts
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
tweet
> "Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>>Weak-kyu criticism of high-dan moves is often overconfident and
>>sometimes is just parroted from dan comments. Lofty expressions
>>of pity by any kyu observer for a high dan player are simply _ludicrous_,
>>and do not elevate the reputation of the kyu player _at all_. Accusations
>>that a particular player is a "fake" or shouts that a player should resign
>>are just plain rude."
>
>
>
> Well, this should not apply to a player who really -IS- a fake.
> Moreover you have done "weak-kyu criticism" of stronger players.
> You manage to make most of the other trolls here look like saints.
> You have not explained why you have/had so many IGS accounts.
-----
From: "Bantari"
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: glGo self-destructed
Date: 23 Oct 2006 11:52:42 -0700
Renli wrote:
> And so it is. It is also on the back of tweet to prove that I engaged
> in any negative social behavior on IGS,
True.
However, from the wahy you behave on rgg I don't think many of the
readers need a specific "proof" that you are also capable of being
irritating somewhere else.
-----
-----
Jeff:
"You have not explained why you have/had so many IGS accounts."
-----
renli had a lot of accounts on IGS in the past. Interestingly
he changed the ranks muliple times for the same account/s.
Could this be sandbagging? I don't know. However, during 2004
Oliver Richman (Fu RenLi, renli, tsukino, usagi, etc..) claimed
a dan rank above his real rank, and most of the news group
laughed and flamed him about it. He did his best to justify a 2d
rank, and provided statistics, which was disputed by many readers.
I will use WEB cites to demonstrate that Oliver Richman engaged
in rank irregularities, and possibly sandbagging.
First, he cited/claimed a 2d rank at KGS on Feb. 15, 2004
From: "Fu, Ren-Li"
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: tentative new subject line: malf's (insinuated yet
unmentioned) rating on igs (?)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:11:13 EST
[ ... ]
> PS: if you are only 2d on KGS, it's no contest :)
Ok, cuz I just beat another 2d with my 2d account.
[ ... ]
Second, he starts an account on IGS April 3, 2004 called tsukino,
with a rank of 3k. (However, during this same time he is flaming
about how strong he is and claiming a dan rank, which the news
group disputed.), but notice the rank he set in the following
game he posted (sandbagging?).
From: "Fu, Ren-Li"
Subject: Infinity
Newsgroups: rec.games.g
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 23:55:53 EST
[ ... ]
(;
GM[1]EV[Internet Go Server game: Legrande vs tsukino]
US[Brought to you by IGS PANDANET]
GN[Legrande-tsukino(B) IGS]RE[B+Resign]
PW[Legrande]WR[3k*]NW[26]
PB[tsukino]BR[3k ]NB[26]
PC[IGS: igs.joyjoy.net 6969]DT[2004-04-04]
SZ[19]TM[900]KM[6.500000]LT[]
C[
Legrande 3k*: hello from Idaho
tsukino 3k : Onegaishimasu
[ ... ]
Third, on April 6 only 3 days later, he claimed 4d at KGS.
From: "Fu, Ren-Li"
Subject: [SGF] 4 dan commemoration commentary
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:30:20 EDT
Hello! I'm very happy to share with you one of the proudest
moments of my life. The game which promoted me to 4 dan on KGS.
I've commented the game somewhat, and of course wouldn't mind
some commentary by stronger players.
[ ... ]
If he considers himself so powerful, why did he set his rank
to 3k on IGS to beat real 3k* player only 3 days before?
Forth, on April 24, his rank shows that he changed it to 1k, while
still claiming a high rank in the news group.
From: "Go Seigen"
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: IGS Shodan quest Not so Completed
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 10:29:14 -0700
[ ... ]
P.S. Fu don't hate the player baby, hate the game:)
From: "IGS PANDANET SERVER"
Date: 24. April 2004 02:56:28 MESZ
Subject: tsukino-Ofriedli-24-09-22
(;
GM[1]EV[Internet Go Server game: tsukino vs Ofriedli]
GN[tsukino-Ofriedli(B) IGS]RE[B+Resign]
PW[tsukino]WR[1k ]NW[28]
PB[Ofriedli]BR[4k*]NB[25]
It is also interesting to note that in his game with Cornel,
he left his rank at 3k, while claiming much higher rank in
the news group.
From: busted flat
Subject: Re: Shall we play ?
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 10:33:51 GMT
Game Result (ending with Game 138 at 1013 UTC):
(;GM[1]FF[3]
SZ[19]KM[0.5]
PW[Cornel]
WR[6d*]
PB[tsukino]
BR[3k]
DT[2004-04-04]
SY[busted client]HA[5]AB[dd][pd][jj][dp][pp];W[qf];B[nc];W[pm];B[np];
W[cf];B[fc];W[ck];B[cn];W[mc];B[nd];W[qd];B[qc];W[pc];B[rd];W[qe];
B[pb];W[rc];B[oc];W[rb];B[jc];W[iq];B[eq];W[lq];B[lp];W[mq];B[kp];
W[mp];B[kq];W[mo];B[io];W[ho];B[hn];W[jo];B[jp];W[ip];B[in];W[kr];
B[jr];W[jq];B[lr];W[ko];B[ks];W[lo];B[kr];W[ir];B[mr];W[nr];B[nq];
W[or];B[pr];W[oq];B[op];W[pq];B[qr];W[qq];B[rq];W[qp];B[rp];W[qo];
B[ro];W[rn];B[bd];W[dh];B[md];W[cq];B[hp];W[gq];B[fr];W[go];B[hr];
W[hq];B[is];W[gr];B[gs];W[hs];B[qn];W[fs];B[pn];W[po];B[on];W[oo];
B[nn];W[no];B[dr];W[rm];B[qm];W[ql];B[pl];W[qk];B[pk];W[qj];B[pj];
W[pi];B[ph];W[oi];B[qh];W[ol];B[nl];W[ok];B[om];W[oj];B[lm];W[mn];
B[mm];W[pm];B[pl];W[og];B[oh];W[nh];B[pf];W[pg];B[qg];W[ng];B[rf];
W[re];B[se];W[sd];B[sg];W[sf];B[bj];W[bk];B[ci];W[di];B[cg];W[dg];
B[bf];W[ch];B[bg];W[bh];B[ce];W[gn];B[gm];W[jm];B[lj];W[jg];B[il];
W[km];B[kk];W[hc];B[he];W[mk];B[ll];W[id];B[jf];W[kc];B[kb];W[kf];
B[ke];W[if];B[ie];W[je];B[jd];W[kd];B[ld];W[le];B[lc];W[ke];B[ih];
W[jb]
C[
B resign.
Incidentally, Oliver Richman gave a long and pitiful excuse
forthe game above:
From: "Fu, Ren-Li" <f...@rogers.com>
Subject: Final post on this matter
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 01:12:35 EDT
[ ... ]
During my game with Cornel, I had intermittent ISP problems,
and as can attest, I returned to finish our game, eventually
resigning.
[ ... ]
and 'Bluejack' responded to renli's lengthy post above with:
From: Bluejack
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Final post on this matter
Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:46:49 -0700
On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 05:12:35 GMT, Fu, Ren-Li wrote:
> I came back and asked tweet again. Disconnected. Disconnected.
> Disconnected
> again. My modem is not having trouble right now.
Just for the record, frl could beat me any day of the week, on any server,
with his hands tied behind his back, even if I had a 9 stone handicap. But
I still think he's possibly the most pathetic person on this newsgroup. In
so saying, of course I must acknowledge his mastery in the art of baiting:
I really didn't want to ever get into any of these threads, but this inane
business of 'not being able to use IGS' just drove me over the edge.
-bluejack
CornelB
> During my game with Cornel, I had intermittent ISP problems,
> and as can attest, I returned to finish our game, eventually
> resigning.
Hi tweet,
I think you forgot to mention the deceitful 4 handi game fu lost on
time while chasing all my solid groups as a solid kgs 1d .
Kind Go Regards,
C
tweet
> Hi tweet,
>
> I think you forgot to mention the deceitful 4 handi game fu lost on
> time while chasing all my solid groups as a solid kgs 1d .
>
> Kind Go Regards,
>
> C
>
Thank you. :-)
This thread was the result of Oliver Richman making another false
accusation:
renli: "No, tweet was engaging in accusations, such as I was
a double digit kyu player (who knows where he got that from)"
But it was noted by Michael:
"NOWHERE do we find any post by tweet calling Richman "double digit kyu', yet
we find posts by Richman calling a 9p an amateur and a double digit kyu player.
Not only has Richman engaged in false attributions without proof against tweet,
he's called a 9p a "double digit kyu".
tweet
> Tweet wrote:
>
>>> Incidentally, Oliver Richman gave a long and pitiful excuse
>>> for the game above:
>>
>>> During my game with Cornel, I had intermittent ISP problems,
>>> resigning.//
>
>
> That doesen't look very long and pitiful to me (emphasis mine, of
> course). Note that the comment about ISP problems not an excuse why I
> lost, but in response to a snide remark someone made about escaping, or
> something.
>
> Cornel:
>
>>Hi tweet,
>>
>>I think you forgot to mention the deceitful 4 handi game fu lost on
>>time while chasing all my solid groups as a solid kgs 1d .
>
>
> explaining yourself. I've already asked for an explanation of this
> twice and you keep ignoring it. I am beginning to think you are the one
> who is being deceitful.
Ironic.
renli,
"I've already asked for an explanation of this twice and you keep
ignoring it."
CornelB
> Although I cannot tell it from your game, I am beginning to figure out
> you are actually not a very kind person.
Hi renli,
You are a sandbagger and you insulted another by calling them 'double
digit kyu' players.
I think you are loathsome.
Cheers, C
Bantari
> Hi renli,
> You are a sandbagger and you insulted another by calling them 'double
> digit kyu' players.
I don't really want to stand between the two of you lovebirds, but...
How can Renli be a sandbagger if for years he insits on being regarded
as stronger than he actually is? And he keeps bringing it up if people
want to listen or not? To the point that people actually find that
amusing.
Isn't he the best example of anti-sandbagger?
Somebody who inflates his rank?
At least - this is my understanding of things.
Or do you know more?...
________________
-Bantari
http://www.bantari.net/
tweet
> CornelB wrote:
>
>> Hi renli,
>> You are a sandbagger and you insulted another by calling them 'double
>>digit kyu' players.
>
>
> I don't really want to stand between the two of you lovebirds, but...
>
> How can Renli be a sandbagger if for years he insits on being regarded
> as stronger than he actually is? And he keeps bringing it up if people
> want to listen or not? To the point that people actually find that
> amusing.
>
> Isn't he the best example of anti-sandbagger?
> Somebody who inflates his rank?
>
I've seen lots of people on IGS who have inflated ranks,
but have much lower ranked accounts for sandbagging. :-)
Bantari
tweet wrote:
> I've seen lots of people on IGS who have inflated ranks,
> but have much lower ranked accounts for sandbagging. :-)
Me too.
And not just on IGS.
However, I have not seen Renli doing that.
Thus - my puzzlement.
_____________
-Bantari
http://www.bantari.net/
tweet
> you a lesson. Anyways you cannot say I was sandbagging Legrande; this
> was an error in your judgement, a true brain fart; the tsukino account
> never accumulated a rating bad enough to affect Legrande. In fact, the
> game with Legrande would be considered meaningless by the server, had I
> achieved my proper IGS rating of 2d* so many years ago.
>
> Sandbagging? I don't think so ;)
>
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004
From: Chris Lawrence <new...@holosys.co.uk.invalid>
Subject: Re: Infinity
On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Fu, Ren-Li wrote:
> GM[1]EV[Internet Go Server game: Legrande 3k* vs tsukino 3k (Black)]
Why did you play as a 3k and not a 3d? Why did you, the supposed 3 dan,
take black against a 3k? Why didn't you identify yourself to Legrande
so he could approach his game with you, the supposed 3 dan, the right
way?
Fu, I'm afraid this, and your complete annihilation by Cornel, confirms
that not only are you are a weak low kyu player but that you are
disrespectful to your fellow players.
Chris
Renli (Oliver Richman, Canadian wanker and imbecile) wrote:
> But Cornel. Didn't Tweet, Malf and JB call me a kyu player (AND a
> double digit kyu player, for the semantic warriors out there;)...
> first?
Michael wrote:
NOWHERE do we find any post by tweet calling Richman "double digit kyu', yet we
find posts by Richman calling a 9p an amateur and a double digit kyu player.
Not only has Richman engaged in false attributions without proof against tweet,
he's called a 9p a "double digit kyu".
"Fu, Ren-Li" <f...@rogers.com> wrote:
Alex Papadimitriu
Renli wrote:
> Tweet your a card.
>
> You cannot on one hand say two korean pros confirmed I was 4 kyu, and
> on the other hand point a finger at me for sandbagging.
Looks like you sandbagged Legrande to me and your BS about not affecting him
didn't address the fact that you played black against a 3k when you're supposed
to be 3d (and later bragged about being a 4d).
>
>
> Your entire argument breaks down when one realises this is the
> fundamental lie you use to support everything you say; On one hand you
> demand a citation, on the other hand you never provide one. You do not
> confirm or deny anonymous evidence from a third party but you attempt
> to use it. Just give up Mark, you lost.
err.. I'm afraid you lost. As usual. :)
-
> Alex Papadimitriu wrote:
>> Looks like you sandbagged Legrande to me and your BS about not
>> affecting him didn't address the fact that you played black against a 3k
>> when you're supposed to be 3d (and later bragged about being a 4d).
>> err.. I'm afraid you lost. As usual. :)
"Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Are you saying tweet lied about the two korean pros then?
Where did you read anything from Alex about tweet and two korean pros?
> Why would tweet do such a thing?
Why would "Renli" pose such a question before obtaining the facts?
- regards
- jb
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-
"Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote:
> appeal to ignorance is an improper debating tactic.
> Back to your college club with you.
It's not clear that "appeal to ignorance" is a logical fallacy:
"Stated properly, an appeal to ignorance is not a fallacy."
http://info-pollution.com/ignorance.htm
However, wikipedia characterizes it as a logical fallacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_by_lack_of_imagination
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ignorance
Fallacy files categorizes it as an "informal fallacy."
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html
Some careful reading of these webpages should illustrate why
there is some discrepancy among authors concerning how to
classify the "appeal (or argument) to ignorance", i.e. whether it
is a fallacy, and whether it is a logical fallacy or informal fallacy.
I imagine that if we got the webpage authors together, and let
them have a discussion, they would all manage to understand
what each of them were saying and appreciate that this is a topic
allowing of much lattitude of interpretation and perception. All
webpages offer an insight into how the topic may be approached.
There is a burden of proof in criminal proceedings, for example,
applying the maxim "He who asserts must prove." Our law presumes
innocence for the accused rather than this fallacy: "There must be
some reason why you're here, otherwise you wouldn't be guilty." (?)
From the first URL cited, it is crucial to disentangle by this means:
"Things to remember
"In general, it is up to the person making a claim to try to
prove it. Do not be tricked into trying to disprove someone
else's claim.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."
These serve as reasonable guidelines. With regards to the present
context, you replied concerning my questions about statements Alex
made. I am not arguing on the point concerning what `tweet' did or
did not do. There is always some probablity that person-Y lies and
some probablity of telling the truth. In that sense I am not applying
any "argument or appeal from ________" because no argument was
being advanced. I am asking for the evidentiary basis of your claims.
I am not going to say that lack of evidence renders your claims invalid.
If you do not supply evidence then I am going to say that you have no
standing and that your claims are not meritorious, not a statement of
whether your claims are true or false. A court of law will not listen to
you further if you have no evidence to support your theory allegation.
Most people will turn a deaf ear to unsubstantiated whining & grunting.
Of course you could be correct though all alone in your "correctness."
The "converse fallacy" to what you say is an "argument from ignorance"
is a "fallacy of the loaded question" which you are posing about tweet.
The "loaded question fallacy" asserts that there is some need to be
asking a question based upon presumptuous assumptions concerning
circumstances which, upon closer scrutiny, resolve as an unwarranted
imposition. Prior to accepting inquiry upon a question one philosophy
technique is to examine whether the given question is well posed. To
ascertain whether such questions have merit or standing thereby returns
to the problem of "burden of proof." In order to be asking the question
we need to know whether putting someone or something into question
has a reasonable basis. Various standards apply in different scenarios.
Many legal questions reduce to proper police conduct during an arrest.
Perhaps it might take a very long time to discuss why the United States
applies the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard when proving guilt.
The fact that many regions in the rest of the world do not apply these
threshold tests speaks volumes concerning a variety of possible means
for constructing interpretations for valid and proper legal procedures.
Often it is not clear whether US citizens understand their own tradition
in Constitutional Law when examining the sort of political debate they
are willing to pursue. If this is an area you wish to explore then there
might be a need to revisit the "presumption of innocence" precept.
Sometimes people do not realize their own intrinsic freedom and can
benefit through being reminded of various fundamantal life features.
- regards
- jb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "-" wrote:
>> Where did you read anything from Alex about tweet and two korean pros?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> "Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Why would tweet do such a thing?
> "-" wrote:
>> Why would "Renli" pose such a question before obtaining the facts?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Planar
"Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Although I cannot tell it from your game, I am beginning to figure out
> you are actually not a very kind person.
Don't be too hard on Cornel, he has to do tweet's bidding in order
to keep his IGS account.
--
Planar
remove .invalid from my address to send me mail
"I really couldn't care less about Japanese rules." - Chris Lawrence
Mef
tweet wrote:
> Why did you play as a 3k and not a 3d? Why did you, the supposed 3 dan,
> take black against a 3k? Why didn't you identify yourself to Legrande
> so he could approach his game with you, the supposed 3 dan, the right
> way?
>
> Fu, I'm afraid this, and your complete annihilation by Cornel, confirms
> that not only are you are a weak low kyu player but that you are
> disrespectful to your fellow players.
>
Pardon my interjecting, but I'm somewhat unclear on the position you
are trying to establish with these comments. Are you saying that he is
of 3 dan strength and is sandbagging, or are you saying he is of weak
kyu strength? These two seem mutually exclusive to me, yet both seem
central to your argument. Likewise, are you saying that this one game
holds particular significance such that it is able ot confirm or deny
one's strength singlehandedly? It seems to me for an accurate picture
of something that is typically based on statistics you would want a
larger sample size. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you and you can
clarify for me?
Thanks in advance,
Mef
tweet
The above is a quote. The full quote is:
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004
From: Chris Lawrence <new...@holosys.co.uk.invalid>
Subject: Re: Infinity
On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Fu, Ren-Li wrote:
> GM[1]EV[Internet Go Server game: Legrande 3k* vs tsukino 3k (Black)]
Why did you play as a 3k and not a 3d? Why did you, the supposed 3 dan,
take black against a 3k? Why didn't you identify yourself to Legrande
so he could approach his game with you, the supposed 3 dan, the right
way?
Fu, I'm afraid this, and your complete annihilation by Cornel, confirms
that not only are you are a weak low kyu player but that you are
disrespectful to your fellow players.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
renli was claiming 3d in the news group. During the same time, renli
created an account on IGS called tsukino, but set his rank to 3k.
He played with black against a real 3k* player called Legrande,
basically sandbagging Legrande. Chris Lawrence wrote the
quoted text above as a result of renli's deception. Chris Lawrence
is taking to renli (Fu, Ren-Li) in the quoted text above.
An earlier post quoted below explains with slightly more detail:
Jeff wrote:
> "Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
B resign.
forthe game above:
From: "Fu, Ren-Li" <f...@rogers.com>
Subject: Final post on this matter
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 01:12:35 EDT
[ ... ]
During my game with Cornel, I had intermittent ISP problems,
and as can attest, I returned to finish our game, eventually
resigning.
[ ... ]
Mef
Yes, I've been watching rgg long enough to have seen all this (along
with it's occasional rehashing), however, there is a large difference
between a claim of strength and a possession of strength. No matter
what is said on RGG or otherwise I don't see how the claim can be made
that he was both a sandbagger and a kyu player simultaneously. One
would think either his claims of 3d (or 2d) strength were overstated
thus the 3k game was not sandbagging, or his claims of strength were
true and he is not a kyu player, however in this case both very
specific claims were made, and I can't see how both can be true.
tweet
Then you must decide what his rating was, or ask him
what his rating was at the time. His answer will be
very interesting, since he did a lot of yelling about
his rating during that time. I suspect he will use
word games and not answer the question. :)
-
> "Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Although I cannot tell it from your game, I am beginning to
>> figure out you are actually not a very kind person.
Planar <damien....@inria.fr.invalid> wrote:
> Don't be too hard on Cornel, he has to do tweet's bidding in
> order to keep his IGS account.
Once again, it's PandaNet Policy, not "tweet's bidding." Also
remember that Japan has a long tradition of certifying players and
what may need to occur for players to develop increasing discipline.
Did Planar offer any advancement or career opportunities for Cornel?
----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Mef wrote:
>>>>> Are you saying that he is of 3 dan strength and is sandbagging,
>>>>> or are you saying he is of weak kyu strength? These two seem
>>>>> mutually exclusive to me, yet both seem central to your argument.
> tweet wrote:
>> Then you must decide what his rating was, or ask him
>> what his rating was at the time. His answer will be
>> very interesting, since he did a lot of yelling about
>> his rating during that time. I suspect he will use
>> word games and not answer the question. :)
Tweet tends to presume that each player is going to gravitate
around convergence to a certain rank. I don't suppose assumptions
of that nature are applicable to Renli. Close inspection of Renli's
style of discourse reveals possible schizophrenia: he instinctively
craves both domination and submission. When Renli sandbags
he can enjoy the domination. When Renli lets others sandbag to
him then he can enjoy submission. Perhaps this is typical behavior,
btw, of a certain element documented within psychiatric manuals.
Merely the fact that this can occur in the homosexual and pedophile
community would not establish that Renli is homosexual or pedophile.
"Renli" <oliver....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> This is an interesting example of bait and switch combined with a
> straw man tactic.
Well, no, actually not. It's an example of attempting to offer
helpful comment without understanding the circumstantial details.
The question concerns why Renli has/had so many IGS accounts
(of varying ranks).
> Tweet is arguing from a position which has two conflicting statements
> at it's center. Then, when asked to explain, the bait and switch is
> that Mef must "ask him" (meaning me) to clarify. I could not possibly
> clarify tweet's argument for him, as I think tweet's argument is very
> unclear. Tweet has baited and switched the argument to an argument
> about what I said, and not what he said.
Mef's query is about you, Renli. You cannot expect tweet to second-guess
speculations concerning your behavior on server(s) and/or newsgroup(s).
> Of course, now that we know which part was the bait and switch, we can
> also easily determine the straw man- tweet has created a caricature of
> this situation by stating I did a lot of yelling (in the past he used
> the word "flaming") about my rating. To discuss this point at all is to
> fall victim to tweet's strawman argument.
>
> To be complete then, I suppose there is of course the obligatory ad
> hominem attack. Ad hominem, Latin for "at the man", means that tweet
> has made an argument about the person, and not about the subject that
> we are actually trying to discuss: "I suspect he will use word games
> and not answer the question." This is obviously a kind of unprovable,
> meaningless argument that has no basis in reality - it is merely
> opinion and can not be used to derive any fact.
Has the question been answered? If not, then Renli used word games.
> __Mark Okada. Mef asked You a question, not me. Please answer
> the question.__
The question is about you, Renli. You are advantaged to answer
better than anyone else. Everyone reading this newsgroups waits for
your answer(s), yet you provide word games instead of the answers.
- regards
- jb
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tweet
It would be interesting to see renli's explanation.