Comparing GURPS to Champions
Dracaena
choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
5. How are they similar?
6. What is Champions like, overall, in terms of usage of points and game
structure?
Thank you in advance for any time you take to help me.
--
"We are Bored. You will be incinerated. Resistance is futile."
-Adolf Hitler
Sidhain
Dracaena wrote in message <7qkmtc$391$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>...
>I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an
informed
>choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
>
>1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
> Champions
>2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
>Champions
>3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
> Gurps
>4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
>
I combined 4/5 here:
Mind you I am not a huge fan of either system but here are the BIG why's to
the above.
One) Gurps can't do supers very well, it's mechanically stuctured so that
supers are too limited, Champions does Supers very well.
It has to do with power Curve Gurps curve is basically flat, only a very
slight measure--each point is exactly one point better than the last--with
Champions one point isn't .(that is points of skills and attributes)
Champions does supers better because it can do both high and low levesl
fairly well. Gurps cannot do High end because of the nearly flat curve.
Why Champions for Sci-Fi: Look to Sci Fi movies etc for the reason.
Gurps Makes HUGE assumptions on Technology, and it's development, predicting
trends--if Aliens exist or other campaign factors they could eshew those
assumptions to no end (beleive me I tried--I have a game with a Neo
pacisfistic race who wield organic technology--and many of the assumptions
in Gurps are based on human technology developing along the path it already
has--not on an entirely alien race with alien ideas. and patterns of
progress)
Champions does this because in one book (Hero System Rulesbook or the whole
Champions Book) it provides rules for building Vehicles and weapons, Gurps
does the first with a seperate book but the last not at all (High Tech and
Ultra Tech don't provide rules for building new technologies just using
theirs)
Gurps makes a lot of suppositions on things--How magic works, how Psi works,
how technoly will work--this isn't always a good thing--it makes eleents of
the game easier--and for the most part that's why I recommend it for Fantasy
because its combat is cleaner and faster while being more realistic than
Hero's Default (though Optional rules CHamps can do " Gurps" Combat but it
becomes more complex--so it's a trade off and the stun method of Champions
doesn't really feal accurate to me--mind you all this is IMO)
Gurps uses 4 attributes and scores of advantage/disadvantages to mimic the
others --Will for example, Champions just makes much of that an attribute
and is done with that--here is another good example--Gurps provides lists of
advantages and disadvantages and what GURPS designers think they are worth
Champions provides a meta system do determine your won
advantages/disadvantages and assign how for you to assign the value.
Honestly I don't use Champions much--I use Gurps because it has the BEST
Reference Material and tons of it, and that makes things easier. However my
suggustion for a Dedicated GM willing to put effort into a game is Champions
because it doesn't make presumptions (Here's an example in Queen Esmerlas
(sic) an anime Sci Fi show there is a "laser pistol" the laser pistol
annihilate a aircraft from the ground--Gurps can't simulate that--it says at
best the Laser does x damage--but Champions provides guidleines for
designing your own weapons--if you want it to be Y powerful this is how you
do it...)
I get lasier in my old age personally and am more likely to use Gurps
because it is easier and because in Fantasy I don't mind it's presumpions
only for Sci Fi/Superheros.
However I like the simplicity offered by Fuzion and am seriously thinking of
converting everything to that (Fuzion is available free--it has much of the
felxibility of Champions--regardless of what anyone else says I know For me
it IS as flexible as Champions and yet it maintains a lot more ease of use
for me as a GM and my players )
>6. What is Champions like, overall, in terms of usage of points and game
>structure?
Champions doesn't have a Flat curve for attributes, and it has more
attributes but they are values differently for example Appearance costs less
than Dexterity because the combat effectiveness of Appearance is less (and
that's one of my personal problems with Champs it is still one of those
games strongly tied to Wargame routes--but so is Gurps so---*L*) Champions
uses Fewer points overall to achieve the same effects of Gurps, and it has
things Gurps doesn't Power Frameworks etc--for example Gurps Cannot truly
and accurately do Green Lantern-(on under a 10000points) Champions on the
other hand can do that and still keep the checks and balances in place
So overall if you want Flexibility--Champions
if you want ease of use and "standard" presumptions but great Resources use
Gurps.
I don't use either but am considering a Sci Fi Game in Champs and a Horror
Game in Gurps...
(I currently use Marvel Saga for Superheroes, and my own system for Fantasy)
RWWells
>I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an informed
>choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
It would help to know what style of game you intend on running. With two very
similar game systems, the differences are more stylistic than substantial. In
short, more realistic games to better with GURPS; Champions tends to be a lower
risk universe. Now there are options in both games to come closer to the other
ones niche, but each game works a little less cleanly.
>1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
In theory, GURPS would be better for street type supers (Batman) while
Champions is more suited to the middle range of superhero characters
(Incredible Hulk). Unfortunately, GURPS Supers is one of the most poorly
designed supplements in that roster. Be prepared for some work.
>2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
I prefer using GURPS for sci-fi games. GURPS Space and the new GURPS Traveller
are superb supplements while the Hero space supplements underwhelmed me.
>3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
That's hard to say. I am one of the few people that likes using GURPS for
fantasy play because its fits the game world I had been designing perfectly,
with weak magic but a highly developed magical infrastructure. Hero has fantasy
support but is geared more to the classic D&D style of independant mages
carrying research by themselves.
>4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
Major differences are philosophical: GURPS has only four attributes which are
keys to character development; Champions has many more attributes but they are
less critical.
Champions has a "points is points" character design system emphasizing
effectiveness for power cost; GURPS adjusts point costs by difficulty in
learning and scarcity.
Champions uses simpler building blocks in its power and advantage system which
are then modified. GURPS tends to start with more detailed abilities.
>5. How are they similar?
Both use points to create characters and the concept of disadvantages to adjust
point values. Both can take a long time to fine tune a character concept. Both
systems have numerous rather eclectic titles of varying quality, generally out
of print.
Richard Wells
ajac...@iii.com
"Dracaena" <david...@erols.com> wrote:
> I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an
informed
> choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
>
> 1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
GURPS Supers has a variety of mechanical problems, making it not a very
good book within the GURPS rules (and incompatible in a number of ways).
Aside from that, in general I'd recommend Champions for superheroes.
The degree of difference depends on your genre preferences within
Supers, though -- GURPS Supers does OK for relatively low-power heroes
(wildcards, for example), rather poorly for standard comic-book levels
unless you give people sickening numbers of points
>
> 2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
The basic problem with HERO for science fiction is you pretty much have
to 'create your own' for technology -- HERO has very little available
material for SF.
GURPS has a great deal of available material, much of it quite good,
though the support for 'alternative' paths of technology is quite
limited. For SF, its main weakness is that many weapons are obscenely
lethal -- combat tends to last until someone gets hit (or, in the case
of heavy armor, a lucky hit penetrates), at which point the unlucky
victim goes down. If you like a space opera feel, GURPS may be too
lethal for you.
>
> 3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
Urk. There are significant problems with both of them for Fantasy, in
that both have fairly flawed magic systems. Again, GURPS tends more
towards binary characters (fine, fine, suddenly dead).
>
> 4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
Um...a wide variety. The most notable ones are that Champions uses a
logarithmic system for strength, damage, etc, while GURPS uses a linear
system (making giants and the like much more reasonable foes), and
Champions is generally more cinematic and tuned towards superhuman
characters.
>
> 5. How are they similar?
Both point-based systems, with a disadvantage system, using a 3d6 skill
system.
>
> 6. What is Champions like, overall, in terms of usage of points and
game
> structure?
Too complex to answer here.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
SD Anderson
> 1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
> 2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
GURPS, far more material to handle SF settings for starters,
the prevailing opinion on these sorts of questions is that Hero
works better for supers/high cinematic settings, GURPS for
gritty/realistic ones.
3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
I'm partial to GURPS for fantasy, others find it too clinical.
Hero is very adjustable, Hero requires a lot of world design
nitpicking to be made first, Hero mages appear to be superheroes
in robes in some opinions.
> 4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
You can BUY equipment in GURPS, not calculate the point cost
for a focused power. Hero is more abstracted.
> 5. How are they similar?
Both use points, build character concepts from scratch, use
3d6 and hex based movement grids. "Normal" level attribute values
are reasonably the same.
David Johnston
>
> I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an informed
> choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
>
Hero (Champions) System. GURPS Supers has clumsy patches,
inconsistencies, and the statistic system starts to fall apart when you
get into extreme numbers.
>
> 2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
Erm. Gurps has source material. Hero doesn't, really. However, it's
easier to balance ultratech attacks and defenses in Hero.
>
> 3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
Gurps. It has a magic system that works. Champions magic doesn't.
>
> 4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
GURPS characters are generally easier to learn how to design because
there are fewer statistics. Champions is more flexible because it's
power system is entirely effects-based, so that, for example you would
buy Captain America's thrown shield as an "energy blast". GURPS
uses a wide variety of different systems to cover things like
magic, psionics and technology. GURPS has much better support material
and background stuff, although it costs extra and could be slapped onto
a Champions campaign anyway. Champions has a "one roll to hit" combat
mechanic that works better than the GURPS "You hit, I roll to
parry/dodge" approach.
>
> 5. How are they similar?
Both are point-driven modular systems
>
> 6. What is Champions like, overall, in terms of usage of points and game
> structure?
Uh...what?
Mark Arsenault
>to 'create your own' for technology -- HERO has very little available
>material for SF.
Ah. Wait until you see Star Hero 2nd Edition and Fires of Heaven, one of the
Star Hero campaign books! Excellent stuff. The latter is being written (almost
done) by Patrick "San Angelo" Sweeney. ;)
Mark @ Gold Rush Games
ICQ: #9614976; (916) 684-9443; http://members.aol.com/goldrushg
Meet GRG at ShoreCon '99, Sept 9-12 at the Hilton Hotel, Cherry Hill, NJ
David Crowe
: I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an informed
: choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
: 1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
While many people have run the numbers on GURPS vs. Hero, I'd like to
address the comparative settings. GURPS Supers has the IST world, which
"realistically" postulates the effect supers have had on the world since
appearing in WWII. I do not like it one whit. It features major
deviations from real world history, many seemingly thrown it to satisfy
the author's polictial views. Technology has advanced to TL 8+ and Earth
has diplomatic relations with several alien races. So it is a very
unfamiliar world, which is atypical of most comics, where the existance of
supers is the defining "fantastic" element.
There also seems to be no room for player characters. The UN is running a
very large Supers operation, with teams in dozens of cities, in addition
to the US government and a variety of private agencies. There are
groups of specialists with powers on call to deal specific emergencies,
such as a team with weather control powers ready to divert storms and
hurricanes.
So you'd be paying for a lot of material you may or may not like with
GURPS: Supers. The Champions campaign section is more about establishing
and running with the campaign style that suits you best, rather than
trying to ram a specific world down your throat.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe http://www.primenet.com/~jetman
"We must save the Earth!" "And there's only one way to do it!"
"BUILD A GIANT ROBOT!"
-Dexter & Mandark, Dexter's Labratory #2
Leonardh
Dracaena <david...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:7qkmtc$391$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
> I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an
informed
> choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
>
> 1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
reason. Most notably the fact that GURPS falls apart at the higher end of
the scale.
> 2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
Personally I don't use either for Sci-Fi. I use TSR's Alternity system.
Although it true that neither Alternity or Champions doesn't have the wealth
of Sci-Fi sourcebooks that GURPS does, it is also true that that High Tech
and Ultra Tech are all that great. As another poster pointed out, GURPS
Ultra-Tech is highly deadly.
Alternity on the other hand, it much more suited to a Space-Opera genre.
Using the FX rules it is possible (although it takes some time and a little
effort) to create just about anything. I think that it will not be all that
long before Alternity branches out in to other genres. (Also don't be
surprised if TSR/Alternity gets the Star Wars license.
Now I realize that a lot of people don't like Alternity mostly because it is
put out by WotC but it is a really good system. I suggest that you give it a
try.
> 3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
Pick your poison. Both do some things well and both do some things poorly.
> 4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
See previous posts
> 5. How are they similar?
See previous posts
> 6. What is Champions like, overall, in terms of usage of points and game
> structure?
See previous posts
> Thank you in advance for any time you take to help me.
You are welcome.
Jeff Knight
>
> I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an informed
> choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
>
> 1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
Ah, as other people have said, it all depends. Both systems have thier
problems, I just prefer dealing with GURPS' problems better. Champions
has that flexible power construction thingie, which can be nice, but it
tends to remove all the flavor from superhero combat. As mentioned
earlier, Cap's shield is an energy blast, so is a bolt of lightning, so
is a stream of flame, so is a fusilade of quills, etc... It just leaves
me cold, especially when I see stuff like 12d6 EB on a character sheet,
with no reference as to what that Energy Blast is.
With not a lot of tweaking (and yes, some inspiration from Champions)
GURPS CAN handle high-level supers. The basic system is also easier to
learn.
>
> 2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi? for Fantasy?
GURPS is the better overall game system.
> 4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
The difference (mainly) is in the realm of combat. GURPS uses the same
mechanic for combat skills as any other skill, while Champions uses
different mechanics. The empahsis in Champions is on combat (not a
terribly bad thing in a Superhero game), while GURPS doesn't emphasize
one thing over another (though one of the longest, and most detailed
section in the Basic book is on combat...).
GURPS Supers is (officially) best suited to running mid-to-low level
super heroes, although you can do high level as things now stand.
Champions is best suited for running superhero wargames.
>
> 5. How are they similar?
Both use points, both feature advantages and disadvantages, both use
d6's (and LOTS of them.) Both are universal systems.
> 6. What is Champions like, overall, in terms of usage of points and game
> structure?
Blurgh.
Jeff
(actually, for good superhero gaming "out of the box", both Blood of
Heroes from Pulsar Games and Marvel Saga from TSR are better by far than
both GURPS and Champions.)
Jason Potapoff
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in article
<37CE12...@telusplanet.net>...
> >
> > 3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
>
> Gurps. It has a magic system that works. Champions magic doesn't.
But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so that they can
cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue. So
effective magic users need to be as strong as the beefiest fighters which
doesn't sit right with me.
But the biggest problem I have with GURPS is defenses. Armor makes you
harder to hit as well as absorbing more damage. So putting plate mail on
your character gives him a better dodge rating. In GURPS there are few ways
to improve a character's ability to not get hit outside of piling on better
armor or improving his weapon skill (which increases his parrying as well
as his attacking ability). So when I made a Dwarf character that was
supposed to be hard to hit, the only way I could do that was sink as much
as I could into DEX, which wasn't enough to give him a Dodge better than 7
or less. Then buy Plate armor so now he has a semi decent chance at
dodging. He fights with two weapons so at least I can make two parries a
turn but I have to use hatchets so his strength can remove the readying
penalty axes get. In the end i've got a character that's hard to hit but
mostly only because he is wearing tons of armor and most hits bounce off
his armor instead of him being able to dodge out of the way. If we were
using Hero, I could easily have given him DCVs and made the character
concept I wanted. Instead of bending the concept to fit the game system.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
JASON POTAPOFF. Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Email: jpot...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Dr Nuncheon
Jason Potapoff <jpot...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in article
><37CE12...@telusplanet.net>...
>> >
>> > 3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
>>
>> Gurps. It has a magic system that works. Champions magic doesn't.
>
>
>But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so that they can
>cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue. So
>effective magic users need to be as strong as the beefiest fighters which
>doesn't sit right with me.
Theere are so many *easy* ways around this, though, that it's barely a
concern. A few:
* Base magical energy on IQ or Will
* Allow spellcasters to buy Extra Fatigue
* Use S. John Ross' excellent "unlimited mana" (available in Pyramid #9
and on the web.
>But the biggest problem I have with GURPS is defenses. Armor makes you
>harder to hit as well as absorbing more damage. So putting plate mail on
>your character gives him a better dodge rating.
Well, technically, it makes it harder to get a potentially damaging hit -
the blows are bouncing off the armor.
>In GURPS there are few ways
>to improve a character's ability to not get hit outside of piling on better
>armor or improving his weapon skill (which increases his parrying as well
>as his attacking ability). So when I made a Dwarf character that was
>supposed to be hard to hit, the only way I could do that was sink as much
>as I could into DEX, which wasn't enough to give him a Dodge better than 7
>or less.
Increasing your HT would have helped, too, since Dodge is based on Speed,
which is based on DX and HT.
Combat Reflexes is also a good buy.
> Then buy Plate armor so now he has a semi decent chance at
>dodging. He fights with two weapons so at least I can make two parries a
>turn but I have to use hatchets so his strength can remove the readying
>penalty axes get. In the end i've got a character that's hard to hit but
>mostly only because he is wearing tons of armor and most hits bounce off
>his armor instead of him being able to dodge out of the way. If we were
>using Hero, I could easily have given him DCVs and made the character
>concept I wanted. Instead of bending the concept to fit the game system.
It sounds like you wanted a cinematic concept (someone who easily dodges
blows) and the GM was not using cinematic rules. That's a fault of either
the GM or a result of your incorrect assumptions about the setting/tone
of the game, not a flaw of the system.
Had it been one of my cinematic fantasy games, you would have had many
options available to raise your Dodge:
Combat Reflexes
Enhanced Dodge
Extra PD
Extra Speed
Acrobatics (for Acrobatic Dodge)
and possibly even the Chambara 'dodge by jumping'.
(Plus, a quick-ready skill so you could eliminate the unready time on
those axes.)
Had it been a realistic fantasy game, you'd have been in trouble if you
wanted a super-dodging dwarf, and that is proper too, because in the Real
World it *is* a lot more efficient in many cases to load up with armor and
shield and parry/block. That's why so many people did it in the Middle
Ages, after all...
I guess it's just odd because you're complaining about something that
GURPS does right.
J
--
"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
ajac...@iii.com
gold...@aol.comames (Mark Arsenault) wrote:
> >The basic problem with HERO for science fiction is you pretty much
have
> >to 'create your own' for technology -- HERO has very little available
> >material for SF.
>
> Ah. Wait until you see Star Hero 2nd Edition and Fires of Heaven,
one of the
> Star Hero campaign books! Excellent stuff. The latter is being written
(almost
> done) by Patrick "San Angelo" Sweeney. ;)
I'd be delighted to see well-done star hero materials (I read through
the first edition star hero manuscript, there's a significant amount of
good stuff in it. Unfortunately, a certain amount of bad stuff as
well). However, the fact remains that not much of it is available right
now ;)
David Utter
>
> I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an informed
> choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list for me?
Yup. All replies solely the opinion of the somewhat overtired author,
natch.
> 1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
Champions. Much more elegant at modeling pretty much anything super you
can imagine.
> 2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
> 3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
Gurps. The Gurps combat system works better for games with ray guns or
swords.
> 4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
Gurps requires its supers to have a skill associated with each power a
PC super has; Champs doesn't.
Gurps has a greater potential for lethality in lower level supers games
than Champs does. Champions makes it pretty hard to snuff a character.
Gurps has a lot more support products out for it than Champs does.
> 5. How are they similar?
They both use 6-sided dice; they have skill systems; the core systems
can be used to model virtually any genre, with varying degrees of
effectiveness.
> 6. What is Champions like, overall, in terms of usage of points and game
> structure?
Champions, at least the current 4th ed rules, encourages the character
builder to purchase characteristics at certain break points. A DEX of 24
or 25 gives no better a chance to hit than a 23, though each point can
affect where your character acts in a given turn. Points are power; the
more your PC has to spend on powers and characteristics, the tougher the
PC.
Game structure? Not sure I understand what you mean. The Champions
system is pretty complete in terms of modeling the supers genre, though.
david
"Um, I met the king of the underworld today."
"OH? And did you slay him outright?"
"Well, no. He was kind of nice, and he gave me this book..."
SD Anderson
> But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so
> that they can cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR
> stat for fatigue. So effective magic users need to be as
> strong as the beefiest fighters which doesn't sit right with
> me.
As opposed to using say Endurance to power spells, END based
off of CON so that a spell caster needs to be tougher than a bull
to cast lots of spells? Of course you could have a low CON score
and buy up END in HERO, true enough. Amazingly enough, you can
have a low ST score in GURPS and buy up lots of extra fatigue.
Your character can also spend money for equipment like
powerstones to increase their fatigue supply.
SD Anderson
> So you'd be paying for a lot of material you may or may not
> like with GURPS: Supers. The Champions campaign section is
> more about establishing and running with the campaign style
> that suits you best, rather than trying to ram a specific world
> down your throat.
The IST section takes up a single 13 page chapter in Supers.
Supers also covers other types of Super campaigns, it hardly
'rams' a specific world down anyone's throat. Supers also
licensed the Wild Cards world, which isn't exactly IST... There
are two IST books, but no one puts a gun up to your head to buy
it.
Incidentally, President Martin Luther King's replacement in
the upcoming IST update is Pat Buchannon. If having a liberal
president in the campaign was what bothers you, perhaps this will
cheer you up...
SD Anderson
> is a stream of flame, so is a fusilade of quills, etc... It
> just leaves me cold, especially when I see stuff like 12d6 EB
> on a character sheet, with no reference as to what that Energy
> Blast is.
Since Defenses are divided up into specific groups, the attack
power should be divided up as well, to keep clear which defense
is applicable. It's largely an annoyance, though I suppose a few
unscrupulous players or GMs have conveniently 'forgotten' the
phyiscal part of a 'Physical EB' when a foe has a LOT of PD but
not much ED...
Admiral Christopher
> > But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so that they can
> > cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue. So
>
> No they don't. It is a _far_ more effective use of points to crank up your
> Intelligence to the point where all your spells are at 15, or even 18. At
> those points, many spells come for free and other spells have their fatigue
> cost cut in half.
No, unless your refering to low costing spells (2-3 fatigue) being
"effectively" cut in half. Fatigue is reduced by a cumulative one at 15, 20, &
25 etc. Only casting time gets halved starting at 21. And while many spells
can be cast for next to nothing, most of those aren't more than utility (sense
life, purify air, etc.). That is those spells with limited ranges or effects.
For bigger or more heavly combat related spells you need skills (ideally) of
around 25-30.
Adm
Len Carpenter
> David Potapoff wrote:
> > But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so
> > that they can cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR
> > stat for fatigue. So effective magic users need to be as
> > strong as the beefiest fighters which doesn't sit right with
> > me.
>
> As opposed to using say Endurance to power spells, END based
> off of CON so that a spell caster needs to be tougher than a bull
> to cast lots of spells? Of course you could have a low CON score
> and buy up END in HERO, true enough. Amazingly enough, you can
> have a low ST score in GURPS and buy up lots of extra fatigue.
> Your character can also spend money for equipment like
> powerstones to increase their fatigue supply.
Or you can use the alternate Mana rules from the Fantasy Hero Companion
II, where spells are powered by expending MANA (based on the character's
EGO) rather than END. A worthy fix, encouraging wizards buy up their
EGO rather than their CON, and it's actually in an official rules
supplement (don't know if it's still in print, though).
Hero gives you enormous freedom to design any sort of magic system you
want, based on whatever laws of magic you can imagine. The disadvantage
is that the GM may have to put in a lot of work in tailoring the magic
system to fit the world envisioned, picking from a long list of possible
rules mechanics that will apply and forbidding others as unknown to or
impossible in this particular world.
Another difference between Hero and GURPS is that Hero can entail more
bookkeeping in the middle of a combat, with more stats to keep track of
as the character takes damage (BODY and STUN), burns energy (END or
MANA), and recovers from injuries and energy lost. This bookkeeping can
become irksome when you're trying to keep the action chugging along, but
there are ways to streamline this if you're willing to tinker with the
rules.
Len Carpenter
David Johnston
>
> David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in article
> <37CE12...@telusplanet.net>...
> > >
> >
>
> cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue. So
No they don't. It is a _far_ more effective use of points to crank up your
David Johnston
>
> David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote in article
> <37CE12...@telusplanet.net>...
> > >
> > > 3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
> >
> > Gurps. It has a magic system that works. Champions magic doesn't.
>
> But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so that they can
> cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue. So
> doesn't sit right with me.
Wrong. Putting those points into Intelligence in order to get a point break
on the cost of your spells is a much more effective design strategy even
before you get your first powerstone. I made very effective mages with
strengths of 7.
>
> But the biggest problem I have with GURPS is defenses. Armor makes you
> harder to hit as well as absorbing more damage. So putting plate mail on
> your character gives him a better dodge rating. In GURPS there are few ways
> to improve a character's ability to not get hit outside of piling on better
> armor or improving his weapon skill (which increases his parrying as well
> as his attacking ability). So when I made a Dwarf character that was
> supposed to be hard to hit, the only way I could do that was sink as much
> as I could into DEX, which wasn't enough to give him a Dodge better than 7
> or less. Then buy Plate armor so now he has a semi decent chance at
> dodging. He fights with two weapons so at least I can make two parries a
Get Combat Reflexes, Acrobatics and Leather armour, and you'll do about as well
unless the character is very strong.
ajac...@iii.com
"Jason Potapoff" <jpot...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> wrote:
> But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so that they
can
> cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue.
So
> effective magic users need to be as strong as the beefiest fighters
which
> doesn't sit right with me.
'Conan the mage' is a common stereotype about GURPS Magic. I've never
seen anyone actually build the character.
>
> But the biggest problem I have with GURPS is defenses. Armor makes
you
> harder to hit as well as absorbing more damage. So putting plate mail
on
> your character gives him a better dodge rating.
PD (in GURPS) represents something which really exists. GURPS
_dramatically_ overestimates it, but deflection (as opposed to
absorbtion) is a real phenomenon.
GryMor
SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> As opposed to using say Endurance to power spells, END based
>off of CON so that a spell caster needs to be tougher than a bull
>to cast lots of spells? Of course you could have a low CON score
>and buy up END in HERO, true enough. Amazingly enough, you can
>have a low ST score in GURPS and buy up lots of extra fatigue.
>Your character can also spend money for equipment like
>powerstones to increase their fatigue supply.
Alternativly (for champions) you could buy an endurance reserve and get
LOTS of endurance for specific powers (spells) on the cheap. Possibly with
apropriately limited regen, and heck, if you want to, you can give some of
that endurance reserve an Focus limitation and you have powerstones :)
--
Steve 'GryMor' Metke bani Virtual Adepts me...@cc.wwu.edu \ /\
Goth code 98 uSKija6CaPjaiaaaGbaa54hAMGULv1jnq???b4FOiGa3 \ / \
d1aab5aaaaaaae0aaTNahhbjvpk3aaasNbqePGnDhaaaacausWA \ /----\
Reality's just a bunch of bits. Aku Soku Zan \/ \
Fitz
wrote:
>Another difference between Hero and GURPS is that Hero can entail more
>bookkeeping in the middle of a combat, with more stats to keep track of
>as the character takes damage (BODY and STUN), burns energy (END or
>MANA), and recovers from injuries and energy lost. This bookkeeping can
>become irksome when you're trying to keep the action chugging along, but
>there are ways to streamline this if you're willing to tinker with the
>rules.
On a semi-related note: I've found that an excellent way of keeping
track of END, STUN and (less importantly, from a book-keeping
perspective) is to use a cheap double-tier abacus. You can see at a
glance exactly where you are, and it takes no time at all to get used
to flicking the appropriate number of beads over whenever you take an
action or a recovery.
Also, abaci are just fundamentally cool :)
David Johnston
>
> > > But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so that they can
> > > cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue. So
> >
> > Intelligence to the point where all your spells are at 15, or even 18. At
> > those points, many spells come for free and other spells have their fatigue
> > cost cut in half.
>
> "effectively" cut in half. Fatigue is reduced by a cumulative one at 15, 20, &
A fireball only costs 3 fatigue. I should have said 20 of course,
but my memory failed me.
Nightshade
>PD (in GURPS) represents something which really exists. GURPS
>_dramatically_ overestimates it, but deflection (as opposed to
>absorbtion) is a real phenomenon.
Whether it's useful to represent as entirely unrelated to the damage
capacity of an incoming attack is highly debateable, however. Since
Passive Defense doesn't address the power of the incoming attack in
any way, I consider it more unrealistic than not in many situations.
Dr Nuncheon
There's actually an optional rule that reducees PD based on the power of
the attack. I think it first appeared in High-Tech, it may be in
one of the Compendium volumes now. I don't remember it exactly, but it
was something like 'subtract 1 PD for every 2 dice of the attack'.
Personally, I think a more realistic rule would take into account the
ratio between the hardness of the substance (DR) and the power of the
attack: tank armor is going to be able to deflect things far better than a
leather jacket, even if they are 12d attacks.
On the other hand, is it worth the extra fiddling? Not for me.
Gerald M. Clark
> On a semi-related note: I've found that an excellent way of keeping
> track of END, STUN and (less importantly, from a book-keeping
> perspective) is to use a cheap double-tier abacus. You can see at a
> glance exactly where you are, and it takes no time at all to get used
> to flicking the appropriate number of beads over whenever you take an
> action or a recovery.
>
> Also, abaci are just fundamentally cool :)
Hmmm, I have an abacus at home, next game I'll try that.
Abacus, its not just for mathmatics anymore. :)
-Gerald Clark
-"Look, its a bird, its a plane, its . . . yuck it was a bird."
-"If you cannot understand why the world should bow before me; then
thrpppth to you."
Gerald M. Clark
> > 4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
>
> Gurps requires its supers to have a skill associated with each power a
> PC super has; Champs doesn't.
> Gurps has a greater potential for lethality in lower level supers games
> than Champs does. Champions makes it pretty hard to snuff a character.
> Gurps has a lot more support products out for it than Champs does.
I've found that high-level (250 points) Champions games tend to have
stun damage more prevalent, i.e. actual character death happens very
little due to high resistant defenses. In low-level (150 points or
less) Champions games body damage becomes more of a concern and happens
more often due to low resistant defenses.
-Gerald Clark
-... brain fault, reboot and add coffee ...
-There are three type of people that play Champions, those who can
count, and those who can't.
Sean Brasher
SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message
news:7qmv1i$bhc$6...@ssauraac-i-1.production.compuserve.com...
> David Potapoff wrote:
> > But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so
> > that they can cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR
> > strong as the beefiest fighters which doesn't sit right with
> > me.
>
> off of CON so that a spell caster needs to be tougher than a bull
> to cast lots of spells? Of course you could have a low CON score
> and buy up END in HERO, true enough.
This is easy, just buy the extra END with the limitation "Only for magical
energy use, not for physical activity -1/2" . The exact fraction for the
limitation is up to you, but now the mage is not "tougher than a bull", he
can just handle a lot of magic without running out of energy...
Nightshade
>In article <37d37ab2.13121307@news>,
>Nightshade <Night...@nightdark.com> wrote:
>>ajac...@iii.com wrote:
>>
>>>PD (in GURPS) represents something which really exists. GURPS
>>>_dramatically_ overestimates it, but deflection (as opposed to
>>>absorbtion) is a real phenomenon.
>>
>>Whether it's useful to represent as entirely unrelated to the damage
>>capacity of an incoming attack is highly debateable, however. Since
>>Passive Defense doesn't address the power of the incoming attack in
>>any way, I consider it more unrealistic than not in many situations.
>
>There's actually an optional rule that reducees PD based on the power of
>the attack. I think it first appeared in High-Tech, it may be in
>one of the Compendium volumes now. I don't remember it exactly, but it
>was something like 'subtract 1 PD for every 2 dice of the attack'.
Since that's not the standard rule, however, my opinion stands.
>
>Personally, I think a more realistic rule would take into account the
>ratio between the hardness of the substance (DR) and the power of the
>attack: tank armor is going to be able to deflect things far better than a
>leather jacket, even if they are 12d attacks.
Depends on what all you're considering to actually apply to
deflection. In general, if hardness matters it should effect passive
defense in the first place, and it shouldn't be necessary to apply it
twice because the reduction won't have enough effect with small
attacks to matter against the tank.
This is why I personally think a seperate deflection number is silly;
it's so intertwined with issues that also bear on absroption you might
as well just roll it into the latter.
Admiral Christopher
> >There's actually an optional rule that reducees PD based on the power of
> >the attack. I think it first appeared in High-Tech, it may be in
> >one of the Compendium volumes now. I don't remember it exactly, but it
> >was something like 'subtract 1 PD for every 2 dice of the attack'.
>
> Since that's not the standard rule, however, my opinion stands.
>
It's not an optional rule. Rather High Tech, like all the other genric
sourcebooks for GURPS, is more of a rules expansion book. While it does cover
optional rules, most of them are official (or standard if you perfer). All of
the official rules could not possibly have fit into the core book.
Adm
Admiral Christopher
SD Anderson wrote:
> GryMor wrote:
> > Alternativly (for champions) you could buy an endurance reserve
> > and get LOTS of endurance for specific powers (spells) on the
> > cheap. Possibly with apropriately limited regen, and heck, if
> > you want to, you can give some of that endurance reserve an
> > Focus limitation and you have powerstones :)
>
> True. The only distinction being is that you can take the
> loot off of that slain foe and buy powestones, or make them if
> you have the spell/enchantment. 0 point cost. OTOH, GURPS
> Powerstones were designed from lessons learned the hard way from
> TFT Strength Batteries, and come with a whole lot of restrictions
> not listed above. Applying them to Champions means you could
> probably build powerstones for very close to: Zero points! ;)
Champions, or rather Fantasy Hero, already has powerstones. In the
Fantasy Hero Companion 2 ready made magic items section their are "power
crystals". Which are 4D6 Aid to END, 0 END, OIF, Independent (4
points). And since most FH games are "heroic" level their free.
Adm
Admiral Christopher
> >It's not an optional rule. Rather High Tech, like all the other genric
> >sourcebooks for GURPS, is more of a rules expansion book. While it does cover
> >optional rules, most of them are official (or standard if you perfer). All of
> >the official rules could not possibly have fit into the core book.0
>
> Given how badly the lack of that rule mungs the logic of passive
> defense in many cases, however, leaving it for a suppliment strikes me
> as, at best, ill advised, since many people, including many using
> settings where it's important (like any mixed technology one) will
> never see it.
Like I said the GURPS core rules are big enough. Steve Jackson Games tends to be
pretty precise but stuff like that slips through the cracks. Besides most of the
seroius GURPS crowd tend to pick a core list of GURPS books, Hight Tech being one
of them. If it means anything the rule about reduced PD was in one of, if not the,
most used section of the book.
Adm
SD Anderson
> On a semi-related note: I've found that an excellent way of
> keeping track of END, STUN and (less importantly, from a
> book-keeping perspective) is to use a cheap double-tier abacus.
> You can see at a glance exactly where you are, and it takes no
> time at all to get used to flicking the appropriate number of
> beads over whenever you take an action or a recovery.
> Also, abaci are just fundamentally cool :)
OTOH, the clacking sound cheap abaci make as a large group of
players go through a big combat could be a problem! ;-pbbbbt
SD Anderson
SD Anderson
> This is easy, just buy the extra END with the limitation "Only
> for magical energy use, not for physical activity -1/2" . The
> exact fraction for the limitation is up to you, but now the
> mage is not "tougher than a bull", he can just handle a lot of
> magic without running out of energy...
True but END is pretty cheap without limitations and not
without other uses...
SD Anderson
> No they don't. It is a _far_ more effective use of points to
> crank up your Intelligence to the point where all your spells
> are at 15, or even 18. At those points, many spells come for
> free and other spells have their fatigue cost cut in half.
At level 21, a spell has a two fatigue energy reduction, it's
casting time is halved (round up EXCEPT if it goes below one turn
in which case it's instant) AND no words or gestures need be
spoken. A bound and gagged wizard can think the spell into
existence. A typical 200 point mage probably has a ST of 8 to
10, extra fatigue of +8 to +12 a lot of spells in the 18 range,
and several key spells at 21 or higher.
ajac...@iii.com
SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> True. The only distinction being is that you can take the
> loot off of that slain foe and buy powestones, or make them if
> you have the spell/enchantment. 0 point cost. OTOH, GURPS
In Fantasy Hero, we call this 'independent'. You just can't do it in a
vanilla superhero game, because superheroes _don't_ go out and buy
stuff.
> Powerstones were designed from lessons learned the hard way from
> TFT Strength Batteries, and come with a whole lot of restrictions
> not listed above. Applying them to Champions means you could
> probably build powerstones for very close to: Zero points! ;)
Well, a point of fatigue in GURPS is rather more than a point of END,
its closer to ten points END. Of course, you can still get a 50-END
1-REC independent OAF item for 1 character point, though you'd need some
advantage to indicate that the reserve was usable to power things
normally powered off of personal END.
Nightshade
>
>
>
>> >There's actually an optional rule that reducees PD based on the power of
>> >the attack. I think it first appeared in High-Tech, it may be in
>> >one of the Compendium volumes now. I don't remember it exactly, but it
>> >was something like 'subtract 1 PD for every 2 dice of the attack'.
>>
>> Since that's not the standard rule, however, my opinion stands.
>>
>
David Johnston
Extra Fatigue just isn't worth the point investment (Besides being kind
of freaky)
DrFaust
>
> Well, a point of fatigue in GURPS is rather more than a point of END,
> its closer to ten points END. Of course, you can still get a 50-END
> 1-REC independent OAF item for 1 character point, though you'd need some
> advantage to indicate that the reserve was usable to power things
> normally powered off of personal END.
>
you want to mix and match them, you need an advantage on the power
(+1/4)
Otherwise, you need to build powerstones as an aid to END which makes it
more expensive (especially with the new costs for Aid in 5th edition)
Cheers,
--
dRfAuSt
*******************************************************
* Due to excessive spam, a spam-blocker is in effect. *
* Eliminate '~' and 'rem' to reply *
*******************************************************
GryMor
>Well, a point of fatigue in GURPS is rather more than a point of END,
>its closer to ten points END. Of course, you can still get a 50-END
>1-REC independent OAF item for 1 character point, though you'd need some
>advantage to indicate that the reserve was usable to power things
>normally powered off of personal END.
Nah, if mages use an endurance reserve to power their magic (mana pool),
the powerstone is just a partially limited extension of the mana pool.
a 1pt independent powerstone would have 40 endurance, recharageable off of
the Magi's mana recovery (since it's part of the mana pool).
This would make a personal powerstone of similar power cost 2pts.
Of course, you are also going to want some way of increasing your mana
pool recovery rate, so, get some Meditation stones, 1pt for +4 independent
recovery, 2pts for the same but it's atuned to you and you alone :)
So no advantage needed to power magic spells. :)
Nightshade
>> Given how badly the lack of that rule mungs the logic of passive
>> defense in many cases, however, leaving it for a suppliment strikes me
>> as, at best, ill advised, since many people, including many using
>> settings where it's important (like any mixed technology one) will
>> never see it.
>
>Like I said the GURPS core rules are big enough. Steve Jackson Games tends to be
>pretty precise but stuff like that slips through the cracks. Besides most of the
>seroius GURPS crowd tend to pick a core list of GURPS books, Hight Tech being one
>of them. If it means anything the rule about reduced PD was in one of, if not the,
>most used section of the book.
The key word in the above is 'serious'. I own a number of GURPS
products, but never bought High Tech. Yet the lack of that rule
created what I thought were goofy situations in both the GURPS
campaigns I ran. Not frequently, but there are others I've ran with
other systems where they would have.
Admiral Christopher
> >Like I said the GURPS core rules are big enough. Steve Jackson Games tends to be
> >pretty precise but stuff like that slips through the cracks. Besides most of the
> >seroius GURPS crowd tend to pick a core list of GURPS books, Hight Tech being one
> >of them. If it means anything the rule about reduced PD was in one of, if not the,
> >most used section of the book.
>
> The key word in the above is 'serious'. I own a number of GURPS
> products, but never bought High Tech. Yet the lack of that rule
> created what I thought were goofy situations in both the GURPS
> campaigns I ran. Not frequently, but there are others I've ran with
> other systems where they would have.
Kinda odd you ran fire fights without it. Not that it's required mind you, but that
was one of the reasons I put off getting into GURPS tech stuff , because there was so
much of it. I mean I just wanted to have HT, UT 1&2 to feel confident that I had all
the stuff I needed to run GURPS Cyberpunk. Anyway you should pick it up, it covers
TL4-TL7 very well and has stuff in like how to walk a shot.
Adm
SD Anderson
> In Fantasy Hero, we call this 'independent'. You just can't do
> it in a vanilla superhero game, because superheroes _don't_ go
> out and buy stuff.
I suppose if I wanted to be a wise guy I could say something
like "In Fantasy Hero, this is true" then direct your attention
to the name of this thread. ;)
SD Anderson
> If it means anything the rule about reduced PD was in one of,
> if not the, most used section of the book.
I think this thread branch is based on someone saying the PD
rule was a standard. I'll disagree with that. Basic Combat is
standard. EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Advanced Combat rules are
optional, but some parts of the Advanced rules are very commonly
used.
SD Anderson
> Extra Fatigue just isn't worth the point investment (Besides
> being kind of freaky)
No freakier than a FH character having more END than 2 x CON
at any rate. Personally, my mages tend to run out of fatigue,
for the simple reason that I'll go ahead and say, extend an area
effect spell if I have the fatigue to spend and I thought the
extended area would be useful.
Since I will find ways to spend the fatigue points if I have
them to spend, I find it practical to get some extra ones for the
wizard.
Nightshade
>
>
>> >Like I said the GURPS core rules are big enough. Steve Jackson Games tends to be
>> >pretty precise but stuff like that slips through the cracks. Besides most of the
>> >seroius GURPS crowd tend to pick a core list of GURPS books, Hight Tech being one
>> >of them. If it means anything the rule about reduced PD was in one of, if not the,
>> >most used section of the book.
>>
>> The key word in the above is 'serious'. I own a number of GURPS
>> products, but never bought High Tech. Yet the lack of that rule
>> created what I thought were goofy situations in both the GURPS
>> campaigns I ran. Not frequently, but there are others I've ran with
>> other systems where they would have.
>
> Kinda odd you ran fire fights without it. Not that it's required mind you, but that
>was one of the reasons I put off getting into GURPS tech stuff , because there was so
>much of it. I mean I just wanted to have HT, UT 1&2 to feel confident that I had all
>the stuff I needed to run GURPS Cyberpunk. Anyway you should pick it up, it covers
>TL4-TL7 very well and has stuff in like how to walk a shot.
I had a rather high overhead of new GURPS books I was buying at the
time in each case to cover what I was doing, and it had the lowest
priority.
Mike B
Sidhain wrote in message <7qks22$gnk$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>One) Gurps can't do supers very well, it's mechanically stuctured so that
>supers are too limited, Champions does Supers very well.
>It has to do with power Curve Gurps curve is basically flat, only a very
>slight measure--each point is exactly one point better than the last--with
>Champions one point isn't .(that is points of skills and attributes)
>
>Champions does supers better because it can do both high and low levesl
>fairly well. Gurps cannot do High end because of the nearly flat curve.
One referee I know chose GURPS for his supers campagn purely because it is
relatively flat as a curve. He simply gave "Supers" an extra 50 points to
spend.
His point was that in the comics, the characters tend to stay at much the
same power level from issue to issue - the power differences in (say)
Spider-man from issue #25 to issue #250 were relatively slight, and pretty
much all boiled down to technique in using what he had.
On the other hand, some characters do grow massively in power and scope over
time - their adventures might start mundane and low-level but progress
through natural stages to being cosmic in scope. This type of growth is very
well-done by Champions.
Ultimately, it comes down to the style of Campaign you want to run - GURPS
suits a more "Golden Age" style, while ruling out mega-characters, Champions
lets you build Galactus is you want to.
At least IMO.
Mike B
Mike B
>David Potapoff wrote:
>> But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so
>> that they can cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR
>> stat for fatigue. So effective magic users need to be as
>> strong as the beefiest fighters which doesn't sit right with
>> me.
>
> As opposed to using say Endurance to power spells, END based
>off of CON so that a spell caster needs to be tougher than a bull
>to cast lots of spells? Of course you could have a low CON score
>have a low ST score in GURPS and buy up lots of extra fatigue.
>Your character can also spend money for equipment like
>powerstones to increase their fatigue supply.
Another solution that Champions offers but Gurps does not is the "reduced
Endurance Cost". Introducing something similar for Gurps would no doubt go a
long way towards solving problems of this type, the premise of course being
that since the characters are using a different aspect of STR to achieve the
effects that they do, the assumption that the efficiencies are going to be
the same is a pretty huge one.
This proposal also has the advantage of offering something that can be done
to boost the mage's power levels over time without raising STR - by
increasing the levels of reduced end cost, you are in effect saying that the
mage is learning to use what he has more efficiently. All his old spells get
easier to cast, day in and day out, at the same power levels, exactly as you
would expect to happen as a mage gains experience.
Of course, this is all theoretical to me, as I've never done Fantasy Gurps.
Has anyone actually written up such a variant rule? Did it work as I've
suggested? Were there unexpected side effects? For example, I can see that
it would be very easy for Gurps to mimic the AD&D system, where Mages start
out being the weakest characters, and eventually become the most powerful.
Comments? Feedback? Thoughts, anyone?
Mike B
>On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 23:38:18 -0400, "Len Carpenter" <red...@early.com>
>wrote:
>
>On a semi-related note: I've found that an excellent way of keeping
>track of END, STUN and (less importantly, from a book-keeping
>perspective) is to use a cheap double-tier abacus. You can see at a
>glance exactly where you are, and it takes no time at all to get used
>to flicking the appropriate number of beads over whenever you take an
>action or a recovery.
Another method that has been used successfully by a referee (for a different
ganme system, I forget which) was to use cheap plastic poker chips, colour
coded for the different characteristics being measured. This was a
refinement of an earlier idea which used peices of dark, white, and milk
chocolate, that was an abysmal failure - people kept eating their endurance.
It was amusing at the time, though...
Mike
NthDoctor (Tony Smith)
Mike B <mi...@ausworld.net> wrote in article <37d3...@news.ausworld.net>...
: Another solution that Champions offers but Gurps does not is the "reduced
: Endurance Cost". Introducing something similar for Gurps would no doubt
go a
: long way towards solving problems of this type, the premise of course
being
: that since the characters are using a different aspect of STR to achieve
the
: effects that they do, the assumption that the efficiencies are going to
be
: the same is a pretty huge one.
Actually GURPs does offer this and IMHO in a much better way. As the Mage
increases his skill in a spell (his ability to cast it correctly) he can
reduce the amount of power he personally has to invest in it.
: This proposal also has the advantage of offering something that can be
done
: to boost the mage's power levels over time without raising STR - by
: increasing the levels of reduced end cost, you are in effect saying that
the
: mage is learning to use what he has more efficiently. All his old spells
get
: easier to cast, day in and day out, at the same power levels, exactly as
you
: would expect to happen as a mage gains experience.
In GURPS a mage may:
1. increase his skill in a particular spell (as stated above)
2. increase his overall magical aptitude (thereby increasing all his spell
related skills)
3. by the advantage extra fatigue.
4. use a power stone.
5. by the advantage mana enhancer, therby increasing the ambient mana
level around him and decreasing the amount of power he needs to power his
spells.
6, A Familar can also lessen the Fatigue drain on a Mage
: Of course, this is all theoretical to me, as I've never done Fantasy
Gurps.
: Has anyone actually written up such a variant rule? Did it work as I've
: suggested? Were there unexpected side effects? For example, I can see
that
: it would be very easy for Gurps to mimic the AD&D system, where Mages
start
: out being the weakest characters, and eventually become the most
powerful.
: Comments? Feedback? Thoughts, anyone?
Mage characters in GURPs are hardly weak to begin with and far stronger
than the average AD&D mage. Having played wizard characters in all three
systems (Hero, Gurps and AD&D) I found that GURPS created the best
possibilities for truly unique character construction (AD&D being the
least).
HERO are pretty good to, but the plethora of strategies I detailed above
(not counting homebrew rules) make for a much richer possible tapestry of
mages.
There are also rules in GURPS for oracles, channellers, diviners, mystics
(or monks as they were known in various forms of AD&D), advantages such as
plant, spirit or animal empathy have rule specific effects on the spells
from their respective colleges (making them easier.) and magic and psionics
have entirely different mechanics allowing you to develop both in a fantasy
setting more fully as opposed to Hero which has trouble differenting
between the Mage who gestures to cast a spell and a telekinetic who needs
to gesture to better use his abilities.
But every system has its merits and flaws. And there are elements I like
from each of them:
HERO: I'm still more comfortable with the rules thus character design is
easier.
GURPS: Vast array of HIGH quality source material (useable in ANY system),
more realistic low level combat (ie-non supers), VASTLY superior psionics
rules (the Psionics sourcebook is just fantastic)
AD&D: Great Maps, Very detailed Fantasy Source Material which can be
converted into either of the two systems above-with a little work.
--
NthDoctor
nta...@airmail.net
Sidhain
Well I wasn't even speaking of advancement let me demonstrate--
I wish to build a Brick. A superstrong pc.
In Gurps for 500 Points I get
A handful of skills average intelligence, dx, high health and strength
(Health 13, Strength 70) The strength 70 lets me lift somewhere near 1400
lbs. extraheavy lift.
Whopping brick strength really on The average Bricks power level in comic
(not at all)
In Champions for 150 points I can buy a handful of skills a high End, Con
(20's) and a strength of say 50 which gives me a lift of 25 tons. Which is
truly on par with an average brick in a variety of Superhero universes
(Modern Era, Golden Age Era would Put them in the TOP level of bricks)
Thetas the difference between a nearly flat Curve--Large number of points to
buy high numbers of attributes for minimal effect, or low number of points
to buy high end attributes for sufficient effect.
Example: Spiderman in Gurps Last time I tried the Beginning Spiderman cost
2000 points (1000 is considered a "Cosmic hero)
Champions: Can be done on Starting Points (100+150 Disads)
See the difference? Gurps presumes it's accurate reflection of comic book
power level: 250 is Golden Age, 500 Four color--Yet I can give you 100+
comic characters that are not excessively powerful for comics that can't be
done for 1000 points in Gurps much less 500. (And Gurps considers 1000
points a "cosmic" or "world spanning power level" character)
Champions on the other hand can simulate many of those characters (but not
ALL Champions Falls flat in some areas as well) but the point is a Flat
Curve results in you having to throw a huge number of "creation points" in
order to model comic characters while a more distinct curve of value to cost
allows the modeling of comic characters to be more accurate to the real
power level of the Characters.
SteveC
Dr Nuncheon wrote (in response to Jason Potapoff)
>>But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so that they can
>>cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue. So
>>effective magic users need to be as strong as the beefiest fighters which
>>doesn't sit right with me.
>
>concern. A few:
Engage standard GURPS system defense mode:
>
>* Base magical energy on IQ or Will
>* Allow spellcasters to buy Extra Fatigue
>* Use S. John Ross' excellent "unlimited mana" (available in Pyramid #9
>and on the web.
In other words, make up a rule, have the character buy an
ability which does far more than what you need ("wow, Merlin,
I would never have guessed you were such a good long distance
runner!"), or see another supplement.
All to do something that HERO does excellently out of the box.
>>But the biggest problem I have with GURPS is defenses. Armor makes you
>>harder to hit as well as absorbing more damage. So putting plate mail on
>>your character gives him a better dodge rating.
>
>Well, technically, it makes it harder to get a potentially damaging hit -
>the blows are bouncing off the armor.
...but of course AP attacks don't get through this any better...
>
>>In GURPS there are few ways
>>to improve a character's ability to not get hit outside of piling on
better
>>armor or improving his weapon skill (which increases his parrying as well
>>as his attacking ability). So when I made a Dwarf character that was
>>supposed to be hard to hit, the only way I could do that was sink as much
>>as I could into DEX, which wasn't enough to give him a Dodge better than 7
>>or less.
>Increasing your HT would have helped, too, since Dodge is based on Speed,
>which is based on DX and HT.
"Hurry, Hurry, step right up, with our super Health elixer, you'll not
only feel better, but be able to dodge arrows better too!"
>
>Combat Reflexes is also a good buy.
>
>> Then buy Plate armor so now he has a semi decent chance at
>>dodging. He fights with two weapons so at least I can make two parries
a
>>turn but I have to use hatchets so his strength can remove the readying
>>penalty axes get. In the end i've got a character that's hard to hit but
>>mostly only because he is wearing tons of armor and most hits bounce off
>>his armor instead of him being able to dodge out of the way. If we were
>>using Hero, I could easily have given him DCVs and made the character
>>concept I wanted. Instead of bending the concept to fit the game system.
>
>It sounds like you wanted a cinematic concept (someone who easily dodges
>blows) and the GM was not using cinematic rules. That's a fault of either
>the GM or a result of your incorrect assumptions about the setting/tone
>of the game, not a flaw of the system.
Of course, you had a concept that HERO does easily, out of the box.
You foolishly did not buy your character many levels of luck or spend
all of your experience on avoiding damage! How silly of you to actually
be able to have a character who is hard to hit... [note for the newcomers
here, buying high levels of luck, or spending character points to
ignore damage are two of the standard retorts by GURPS proponents
whenever "you're game isn't very cinematic" is brought up!]
>
>Had it been one of my cinematic fantasy games, you would have had many
>options available to raise your Dodge:
>
>Combat Reflexes
>Enhanced Dodge
>Extra PD
>Extra Speed
>Acrobatics (for Acrobatic Dodge)
>and possibly even the Chambara 'dodge by jumping'.
>(Plus, a quick-ready skill so you could eliminate the unready time on
>those axes.)
Of course in Champions, you could simply have bought a high DEX
and left it at that...(how many pages of rules over how many books
did we have to go through to get all of those options?) In HERO, I
have two concepts to work with: DEX and Combat Levels. That's it.
Yet they somehow manage to do exactly the same thing! Perhaps
that's because HERO is largely a metasystem, and GURPS is not.
>I guess it's just odd because you're complaining about something that
>GURPS does right.
And here we have the final standard defense for the GURPS fans out there
"its not a bug, its a feature!"
>
>J
>--
>"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
>yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
Here's the scoop on HERO versus GURPS:
If you like the system as presented in GURPS, it will work fine for you.
If you want to make changes to it, you are completely left on your own,
however. GURPS is designed, at its core, to be a realistic system.
Cinematic detail has been bolted on over time.
The HERO system comes from a Super-hero game system with the
notion that players and GMs are able to define their own powers and
special effects. At lower ends of the spectrum, it loses some of the
detail that GURPS has, opting for your own creativity instead.
In the post above, look at how many ways GURPS has to change
your chances of dodging an attack: 6 were listed and with some
work, I'm sure I could come up with more of them.
Each one of those methods have their own rules for using them and
their own special effects. That's the key difference: GURPS will define
your special effects for you.
As someone who has run GURPS and is very familiar with it, when one
wants to run a campaign with the worldview that GURPS provides,
its a great system. If you have different ideas, you would be better
off to stick to a system that has that mindset built into it from the
ground up: i.e., HERO (although there are others as well).
When looking at whether to use GURPS or HERO for a campaign, the
question becomes, "do I like what this campaign would look like
under the GURPS worldview?" If so, then skills, powers and special
effects have already been created for you, in loving detail. If not, then
I would suggest HERO.
Despite all of the arguing that is going on in this thread (and always
does when this issue comes up) that's the key: look at both systems
and make an informed choice.
--Steve C.
spc...@att.net
NOTE: Remove NOSPAM to reply to this message
SD Anderson
> A handful of skills average intelligence, dx, high health and
> strength (Health 13, Strength 70) The strength 70 lets me lift
> somewhere near 1400 lbs. extraheavy lift.
That's well under the 605 points a typical '500 point'
character has.
Incidentally, the 70 ST brick can lift 1750 pounds (1400 and
move) but can have a lift of 11,200 lbs on a 16- extra effort.
Part of the problem is that you seem to be using a Champions
definition of 70 STR = Brick. The three brick type example
characters in Supers (Rockman, Blue Demon, Mt Fuji) all have
triple digit ST scores. A spiderman type semi brick would have a
30 to 40 STR in Champions, around 60 to 90 in GURPS.
SD Anderson
> Another solution that Champions offers but Gurps does not is
> the "reduced Endurance Cost".
Really? You *might* want to check the GURPS rules before you
type things like that...
Spells cost energy and energy costs for spells are reducable
through the simple act of improving your skill level.
To get back to supers however, the reason you don't have a
reduced fatigue enhancement in Supers is that the DEFAULT Super
power COSTS ZERO FATIGUE. You can put a fatigue cost limit on
the power, but it's kind of hard to increase a full fatigue score
for a character...
The presumption of zero fatigue powers is an advantage it
removes a bit of book keeping in the middle of combat by a player
or GM. I'm not sure how applying that Champions mechanic to
every power use a GURPS Super uses would improve play.
Jeff Martin
This was a
>refinement of an earlier idea which used peices of dark, white, and milk
>chocolate, that was an abysmal failure - people kept eating their
endurance.
>It was amusing at the time, though...
>
>Mike
>
And a bit appropriate at times as well..:)
-J
Sidhain
SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message
>Sidhain wrote:
>> A handful of skills average intelligence, dx, high health and
>> strength (Health 13, Strength 70) The strength 70 lets me lift
>> somewhere near 1400 lbs. extraheavy lift.
>
> That's well under the 605 points a typical '500 point'
>character has.
Yes but I didn't mention Defenses at all. And for Gurps to end up witht he
Basic level of Defense that a Champs Pc has just from having enhanced
attributes I would have to buy PD/DR up, then any other defenses.
Incidentally, the 70 ST brick can lift 1750 pounds (1400 and
>move) but can have a lift of 11,200 lbs on a 16- extra effort.
>
And that's still nothing near the 25 tons a person with a strength of 50 in
champs
And in Champions the person can push for a much higher strength as well.
Example Again Spiderman can lift approcimately 10 tons...that's 20000 lbs,
that means in Champs he must have a 80-90 strength. This is a solo pc who
isn't a BRICK remember IS NOT a brick. To do a Brick such as the Thing who
can lift 75+tons is nearly impossible in Gurps without 3000+ points. (and
strength is the ONLY attribute with any curve whatsover no other attributes
have CURVES at all) so to add Spiderman's Amazing Agility is impossible in
Gurps. Without merely hand waving and saying Preternatural reflexes really
are high end human reflexes with lots of skills.
> Part of the problem is that you seem to be using a Champions
>definition of 70 STR = Brick. The three brick type example
>characters in Supers (Rockman, Blue Demon, Mt Fuji) all have
>triple digit ST scores. A spiderman type semi brick would have a
>30 to 40 STR in Champions, around 60 to 90 in GURPS.
And that's my point exactly--no or little Curve on the "point scale" its why
a Champs character has a 40 strength for 30 Points....and a Champs Character
with a 40 strength costs (for strength alone) 180 points.
All I was doing was comparing the Ratio of Cost-Effect.
Len Carpenter
> To get back to supers however, the reason you don't have a
> reduced fatigue enhancement in Supers is that the DEFAULT Super
> power COSTS ZERO FATIGUE. You can put a fatigue cost limit on
> the power, but it's kind of hard to increase a full fatigue score
> for a character...
>
> The presumption of zero fatigue powers is an advantage it
> removes a bit of book keeping in the middle of combat by a player
> or GM. I'm not sure how applying that Champions mechanic to
> every power use a GURPS Super uses would improve play.
It wouldn't. END bookkeeping has been simplified somewhat with
succeeding editions of Hero, and buying a power to 0 END is cheaper in
4th edition than with previous ones, but the game can go still farther
to improve this. It would be nice to see 5th edition treat 0 END cost
as the standard for all powers, reserving END burning as an optional
Limitation for those who want it (rare, strenuous powers, END batteries,
and such). Won't happen, though--not with 5th edition's aim of
maintaining backwards compatibility. In addition, the new version would
have to tinker with the costs of certain modifiers like Autofire and
Charges to restore balance.
The more I think about how END in Hero works, the less like it, at all
power levels. END is something many Hero campaigns can easily due
without.
Len Carpenter
Dr Nuncheon
SteveC <spc...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote:
>
>Dr Nuncheon wrote (in response to Jason Potapoff)
>>>But with GURPS magic using character need high Strengths so that they can
>>>cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR stat for fatigue. So
>>>effective magic users need to be as strong as the beefiest fighters which
>>>doesn't sit right with me.
>>
>>Theere are so many *easy* ways around this, though, that it's barely a
>>concern. A few:
>
>Engage standard GURPS system defense mode:
If you engage in bog-standard GURPS-bashing that everybody's heard a
million times before, you get standard defenses. Deal.
>>* Base magical energy on IQ or Will
>>* Allow spellcasters to buy Extra Fatigue
>>* Use S. John Ross' excellent "unlimited mana" (available in Pyramid #9
>>and on the web.
>
>In other words, make up a rule,
Right. I forgot you're not allowed to do this.
>have the character buy an
>ability which does far more than what you need ("wow, Merlin,
>I would never have guessed you were such a good long distance
>runner!"),
Or use a limiter on the Fatigue, just like you would in HERO.
> or see another supplement.
...like you have to do to get a magic system for HERO?
>All to do something that HERO does excellently out of the box.
I forgot several, like 'buy up your skill to the point where your fatigue
costs are reduced.'
And HERO right out of the box doesn't have a magic system, so it's a
rather silly comparison. You have to spend time making a system out of
the HERO rules, unless of course you want your mages to be 'superheros in
robes'.
>>>But the biggest problem I have with GURPS is defenses. Armor makes you
>>>harder to hit as well as absorbing more damage. So putting plate mail on
>>>your character gives him a better dodge rating.
>>
>>Well, technically, it makes it harder to get a potentially damaging hit -
>>the blows are bouncing off the armor.
>
>...but of course AP attacks don't get through this any better...
AP attacks don't go through DCV any better, either, so what's your point?
>>>In GURPS there are few ways
>>>to improve a character's ability to not get hit outside of piling on
>better
>>>armor or improving his weapon skill (which increases his parrying as well
>>>as his attacking ability). So when I made a Dwarf character that was
>>>supposed to be hard to hit, the only way I could do that was sink as much
>>>as I could into DEX, which wasn't enough to give him a Dodge better than 7
>>>or less.
>
>>Increasing your HT would have helped, too, since Dodge is based on Speed,
>>which is based on DX and HT.
>
>"Hurry, Hurry, step right up, with our super Health elixer, you'll not
>only feel better, but be able to dodge arrows better too!"
Are you suggesting that someone who is in better physical shape is *not*
going to move faster and dodge better than a couch potato?
>>It sounds like you wanted a cinematic concept (someone who easily dodges
>>blows) and the GM was not using cinematic rules. That's a fault of either
>>the GM or a result of your incorrect assumptions about the setting/tone
>>of the game, not a flaw of the system.
>
>Of course, you had a concept that HERO does easily, out of the box.
Because HERO does cinematic very well. I've never said that it doesn't.
>You foolishly did not buy your character many levels of luck or spend
>all of your experience on avoiding damage! How silly of you to actually
>be able to have a character who is hard to hit... [note for the newcomers
>here, buying high levels of luck, or spending character points to
>ignore damage are two of the standard retorts by GURPS proponents
>whenever "you're game isn't very cinematic" is brought up!]
Maybe because they're *cinematic options* for GURPS?
This is sort of like me saying "HERO sucks at doing realistic fights.
Peopel take tremendous amounts of damage and get thrown through walls all
the time." "Well, did you use any of the rules for optional realism, like
Hit Location, Bleeding, Knockdown?" "No."
>>Had it been one of my cinematic fantasy games, you would have had many
>>options available to raise your Dodge:
>>
>>Combat Reflexes
>>Enhanced Dodge
>>Extra PD
>>Extra Speed
>>Acrobatics (for Acrobatic Dodge)
>>and possibly even the Chambara 'dodge by jumping'.
>>(Plus, a quick-ready skill so you could eliminate the unready time on
>>those axes.)
>
>Of course in Champions, you could simply have bought a high DEX
>and left it at that...
"Gosh, I never knew Throg the Barbarian could juggle so well."
>(how many pages of rules over how many books
>did we have to go through to get all of those options?) In HERO, I
>have two concepts to work with: DEX and Combat Levels. That's it.
>Yet they somehow manage to do exactly the same thing! Perhaps
>that's because HERO is largely a metasystem, and GURPS is not.
And your point? Some people like the metasystem approach. Some people
like the more solidly defined and detailed system of GURPS. Both systems
can do realistic *or* cinematic games quite well if you have half a brain
and actually think instead of just whining.
>Here's the scoop on HERO versus GURPS:
>
>If you like the system as presented in GURPS, it will work fine for you.
>If you want to make changes to it, you are completely left on your own,
>however.
Except for all the examples that are out there.
The lack of a metasystem in GURPS is also freeing in a way. I can make
changes to the magic system (or scrap it and start anew) without feeling
like I have to obey the metasystem. And its far easier to handle some
powers/spells/effects/whatever in GURPS than it is in HERO - slippery
floors and gravity control come to mind - because you have the freedom to
'just make something up'. Just try suggesting 'just make up a new power'
on the HERO list sometime...
>Each one of those methods have their own rules for using them and
>their own special effects. That's the key difference: GURPS will define
>your special effects for you.
...or provide you with examples that let you make things that follow your
own mindset. And you can do lots of things without fiddling with the
power modifiers and such from HERO. ("Lessee, that's an 8d6 EB, with AP
limited to be 'only vs. metal armor'...or maybe I should give all the
metal armors the disadvantage "not vs. electrical attacks"?)
>Despite all of the arguing that is going on in this thread (and always
>does when this issue comes up) that's the key: look at both systems
>and make an informed choice.
Agreed.
David Johnston
>
> SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message
> >> that they can cast a number of spells since GURPS uses the STR
> >> stat for fatigue. So effective magic users need to be as
> >> strong as the beefiest fighters which doesn't sit right with
> >> me.
> >
> >off of CON so that a spell caster needs to be tougher than a bull
> >to cast lots of spells? Of course you could have a low CON score
> >and buy up END in HERO, true enough. Amazingly enough, you can
> >have a low ST score in GURPS and buy up lots of extra fatigue.
> >Your character can also spend money for equipment like
> >powerstones to increase their fatigue supply.
>
> long way towards solving problems of this type, the premise of course being
There IS something similar. It's the fatigue break for high skill.
Nightshade
>>Theere are so many *easy* ways around this, though, that it's barely a
>>concern. A few:
>
>
>Engage standard GURPS system defense mode:
Followed by 'Engage standard fratricidal GURPS/Hero conflic attack
mode'. You know, absolutely nothing is ever served in these
discussions once the sarcasm comes out and starts splashing off the
walls. It's entirely possible to point out why you find the
'solution' others present to your problems with the system without
this sort of 'tude. And it potentially provides for the conversation
to move forward instead of degenerate.
Come on, people. Grow up. It's possible to dislike another game and
have problems with it's assumptions without being derogatory. And the
latter _never_ serves a purpose other than to make you simultaneously
feel self-righteous and look like an ass.
David Johnston
>
> SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote in message
> >Sidhain wrote:
> >> A handful of skills average intelligence, dx, high health and
> >> strength (Health 13, Strength 70) The strength 70 lets me lift
> >> somewhere near 1400 lbs. extraheavy lift.
> >
> > That's well under the 605 points a typical '500 point'
> >character has.
>
> Yes but I didn't mention Defenses at all. And for Gurps to end up witht he
> Basic level of Defense that a Champs Pc has just from having enhanced
> attributes I would have to buy PD/DR up, then any other defenses.
>
> Incidentally, the 70 ST brick can lift 1750 pounds (1400 and
> >move) but can have a lift of 11,200 lbs on a 16- extra effort.
> >
> And that's still nothing near the 25 tons a person with a strength of 50 in
> champs
> And in Champions the person can push for a much higher strength as well.
>
> Example Again Spiderman can lift approcimately 10 tons...that's 20000 lbs,
> that means in Champs he must have a 80-90 strength. This is a solo pc who
> isn't a BRICK remember IS NOT a brick.
Spiderman IS a brick. Repeat, Spiderman IS a brick. As bricks go, he's
pretty weak, but he has only two real attacks, an entangle, and physical
strength. He simply happens to be a fast, agile brick.
To do a Brick such as the Thing who
> can lift 75+tons is nearly impossible in Gurps without 3000+ points. (and
> strength is the ONLY attribute with any curve whatsover no other attributes
> have CURVES at all) so to add Spiderman's Amazing Agility is impossible in
> Gurps. Without merely hand waving and saying Preternatural reflexes really
> are high end human reflexes with lots of skills.
Note that the beginning Spiderman had trouble taking on a human sumo wrestler.
He nearly got his butt kicked by a trio consisting of three normals, one of whom
knew ju-jitsu, one who had a reasonably high skill with a lariat, and one of whom
was just a big strong guy who managed to entangle him using a tire. Even quite an
advanced Spiderman found lifting a Volkswagen Beetle near the limit of his physical
strength. J. Jonah Jameson beat him using a remote controlled robot that the present
day Spiderman would find laughable. Spiderman's present power level is the result
of steady growth over the course of almost forty years of continuous "play".
I could easily design a good starting Spiderman using 500 points.
SteveC
Dr Nuncheon wrote (in response to me)
>>>* Use S. John Ross' excellent "unlimited mana" (available in Pyramid #9
>>>and on the web.
>>
>>In other words, make up a rule,
>
>Right. I forgot you're not allowed to do this.
Of course you are. At the same time, if you have to make up
a rule to cover a common case scenario, then your game system
has issues. I can make up rules to turn AD&D into a superhero
system, but that doesn't make it correct for me to say that
AD&D is a great super hero game, now does it?
>
>>have the character buy an
>>ability which does far more than what you need ("wow, Merlin,
>>I would never have guessed you were such a good long distance
>>runner!"),
>
>Or use a limiter on the Fatigue, just like you would in HERO.
So I'll buy a power that is completely unrelated to my magic based
character and apply a limitation from a completely different sourcebook
all to simulate the fact that my character can cast a lot of spells?
Unless I am mistaken, Limiters aren't mentioned in either GURPS
3rd Edition (except for PSI powers) or even GURPS Magic (they
may be in the latest printings, however).
>
>> or see another supplement.
>
>...like you have to do to get a magic system for HERO?
Odd. I somehow managed to run an entire campaign and play
in another one with just the BBB. Fantasy Hero simply has
examples of how to create different magic systems. The Meta-
system is right in HERO.
>
>>All to do something that HERO does excellently out of the box.
>
>I forgot several, like 'buy up your skill to the point where your fatigue
>costs are reduced.'
So I spend tremendous numbers of points to make my character
a god at casting his spells (in addition to buying him a near super-
human INT) all to be a decent spell caster!
>
>And HERO right out of the box doesn't have a magic system, so it's a
>rather silly comparison. You have to spend time making a system out of
>the HERO rules, unless of course you want your mages to be 'superheros in
>robes'.
Actually, no you don't. All the classic trappings of requirements
for magic systems: limited uses, extra time, components,
concentration, based on a skill roll are in the HERO rules,
with the idea that they would work best in a fantasy environment.
>
>>>>But the biggest problem I have with GURPS is defenses. Armor makes you
>>>>harder to hit as well as absorbing more damage. So putting plate mail
on
>>>>your character gives him a better dodge rating.
>>>
>>>Well, technically, it makes it harder to get a potentially damaging hit -
>>>the blows are bouncing off the armor.
>>
>>...but of course AP attacks don't get through this any better...
>
>AP attacks don't go through DCV any better, either, so what's your point?
Ah, but your armor in HERO doesn't make you harder to hit, (in fact it
slows you down) it just makes you harder to _hurt_. I understand
the PD system for armor in GURPS, I just don't find it logical or useful
in many situations. This is very definetely a "Your Milage May Vary"
situation.
>
>>>>In GURPS there are few ways
>>>>to improve a character's ability to not get hit outside of piling on
>>better
>>>>armor or improving his weapon skill (which increases his parrying as
well
>>>>as his attacking ability). So when I made a Dwarf character that was
>>>>supposed to be hard to hit, the only way I could do that was sink as
much
>>>>as I could into DEX, which wasn't enough to give him a Dodge better than
7
>>>>or less.
>>
>>>Increasing your HT would have helped, too, since Dodge is based on Speed,
>>>which is based on DX and HT.
>>
>>"Hurry, Hurry, step right up, with our super Health elixer, you'll not
>>only feel better, but be able to dodge arrows better too!"
>
>Are you suggesting that someone who is in better physical shape is *not*
>going to move faster and dodge better than a couch potato?
Actually, I will say that. A true couch potato is not just going
to have low HT, but likely low DX as well. By your definition, I
could say that having a high HT should add to your social skills
too...not to mention science and math skills.
>
>>>It sounds like you wanted a cinematic concept (someone who easily dodges
>>>blows) and the GM was not using cinematic rules. That's a fault of
either
>>>the GM or a result of your incorrect assumptions about the setting/tone
>>>of the game, not a flaw of the system.
>>
>>Of course, you had a concept that HERO does easily, out of the box.
>
>Because HERO does cinematic very well. I've never said that it doesn't.
Then you're half the way there :) Seriously, though, if the GURPS camp
would say something like "GURPS does realistic campaigns better than
HERO, and HERO does cinematic better than GURPS" I doubt we would
have any arguments here. (Can't have that, though...) If you've read any
of my previous posts (I do not post often, but have been around for a long
while) you'll know that I am not a proponent for the "one true game"
school of thought, but rather the "right tool for the job" school. The
reason
I get involved with the GURPS threads is that some fans of GURPS
want to make it the Be-All-And-End-All of game systems. It isn't.
1>
>>You foolishly did not buy your character many levels of luck or spend
>>all of your experience on avoiding damage! How silly of you to actually
>>be able to have a character who is hard to hit... [note for the newcomers
>>here, buying high levels of luck, or spending character points to
>>ignore damage are two of the standard retorts by GURPS proponents
>>whenever "you're game isn't very cinematic" is brought up!]
>
>Maybe because they're *cinematic options* for GURPS?
That's true for the character points (which, in my estimation is a kludge)
the Luck thing seems to be a creation of USENET.
>
>This is sort of like me saying "HERO sucks at doing realistic fights.
>Peopel take tremendous amounts of damage and get thrown through walls all
>the time." "Well, did you use any of the rules for optional realism, like
>Hit Location, Bleeding, Knockdown?" "No."
>
Point taken to a point. My problem with GURPS is that characters
need to use an assortment of powers from several supplements that
either the GM or players have to think of themselves to be cinematic.
In HERO, you use the "optional rules" section of combat, all in one
place, all described to be used specifically for the purpose of making
combat more realistic. In GURPS, I could decide to give each of
the characters one or more uses of the "Extra Lives" power but
nowhere did the system suggest that as an option to make the system
more heroic. The GURPS Stun rules and Cinematic damage rules
(which are suggested for the purposes of making the game less
realistic) are, to my mind, poorly implemented. Again this is a YMMV
situation.
>>Of course in Champions, you could simply have bought a high DEX
>>and left it at that...
>
>"Gosh, I never knew Throg the Barbarian could juggle so well."
Well, Throg would most likely have an obscenely high DX in GURPS
too (since all combat characters must have that, after all--if they
are written up properly). In HERO you have the option of buying
up DEX or buying specific levels with your DCV (an option which
is discussed in some detail).
>
>>(how many pages of rules over how many books
>>did we have to go through to get all of those options?) In HERO, I
>>have two concepts to work with: DEX and Combat Levels. That's it.
>>Yet they somehow manage to do exactly the same thing! Perhaps
>>that's because HERO is largely a metasystem, and GURPS is not.
>
>And your point? Some people like the metasystem approach. Some people
>like the more solidly defined and detailed system of GURPS. Both systems
>can do realistic *or* cinematic games quite well if you have half a brain
>and actually think instead of just whining.
>
If I am going to make significant changes to a game system, a
metasystem is inherently superior, because it has tools built in
to help me make those changes. I could spend time changing
and tweaking the rules in GURPS to make a good 4-color supers
campaign, but I would be on my own in doing so. In HERO I
would not.
>>Here's the scoop on HERO versus GURPS:
>>
>>If you like the system as presented in GURPS, it will work fine for you.
>>If you want to make changes to it, you are completely left on your own,
>>however.
>
>Except for all the examples that are out there.
The truth may in fact be out there, but how much work am I going
to have to go through to get at it? I don't even think Cancer Man
knows the rationale behind the costs for GURPS abilities. I can
buy sourcebooks or read the web for the ideas of dozens of
different authors on how to make changes to the fundamental
mechanics of GURPS, but I would rather have a coherent foundation
to work from. Again, it comes down to YMMV.
>
>The lack of a metasystem in GURPS is also freeing in a way. I can make
>changes to the magic system (or scrap it and start anew) without feeling
>like I have to obey the metasystem. And its far easier to handle some
>powers/spells/effects/whatever in GURPS than it is in HERO - slippery
>floors and gravity control come to mind - because you have the freedom to
>'just make something up'. Just try suggesting 'just make up a new power'
>on the HERO list sometime...
Here you make a very good point. In the places where the HERO
system is undefined or broken (and there are such places) it can
be difficult to determine where to go. At the same time, if I DO have
to make changes to HERO I have a _mostly_ consistent framework
to start from. With GURPS I can just insert the rules as I want (which
is pretty much how GURPS has evolved). If I am a good designer,
everything will work out. At the same time, not having a framework
to start from can cause some issues. I am sure that someone,
somewhere, actually uses the GURPS MECHA rules to run a
Battletech type campaign.
>
>>Despite all of the arguing that is going on in this thread (and always
>>does when this issue comes up) that's the key: look at both systems
>>and make an informed choice.
>
>Agreed.
And that's the real point, and its something we can both agree on.
GURPS has some of the best writers in the field, making some of
the best sourcematerial available. Its core mechanics are also based
in many ways on HERO. How could I hate it then? :)
>
>J
>--
>"Yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation" Jeff Johnston
>yields falsehood when preceded by its quotation. jeffj @ io.com
--Steve C.
Dr Nuncheon
SteveC <spc...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote:
>
>Dr Nuncheon wrote (in response to me)
>>>>* Use S. John Ross' excellent "unlimited mana" (available in Pyramid #9
>>>>and on the web.
>>>
>>>In other words, make up a rule,
>>
>>Right. I forgot you're not allowed to do this.
>
>Of course you are. At the same time, if you have to make up
>a rule to cover a common case scenario, then your game system
>has issues.
You don't have to make up a rule - that's just one option. And it's
hardly on the level of turning AD&D into a superhero system. That's like
saying swatting a fly is on the same level as killing a person.
>>>have the character buy an
>>>ability which does far more than what you need ("wow, Merlin,
>>>I would never have guessed you were such a good long distance
>>>runner!"),
>>
>>Or use a limiter on the Fatigue, just like you would in HERO.
>
>So I'll buy a power that is completely unrelated to my magic based
>character
Its about as unrelated as buying extra END in HERO...
> and apply a limitation from a completely different sourcebook
>all to simulate the fact that my character can cast a lot of spells?
>Unless I am mistaken, Limiters aren't mentioned in either GURPS
>3rd Edition (except for PSI powers) or even GURPS Magic (they
>may be in the latest printings, however).
They're in Compendium I, IIRC. And of course any GM could say, "Hmm, you
want extra FT only for magic? I'll give it to you at 2/3 cost."
>>> or see another supplement.
>>
>>...like you have to do to get a magic system for HERO?
>
>Odd. I somehow managed to run an entire campaign and play
>in another one with just the BBB. Fantasy Hero simply has
>examples of how to create different magic systems. The Meta-
>system is right in HERO.
The metasystem. But you have to put all the work in. Depending on how
defined your magic system is, that could mean many hours of work in HERO.
As opposed to the 5 seconds of "Base magical FT off of Will."
>>>All to do something that HERO does excellently out of the box.
>>
>>I forgot several, like 'buy up your skill to the point where your fatigue
>>costs are reduced.'
>
>So I spend tremendous numbers of points to make my character
>a god at casting his spells (in addition to buying him a near super-
>human INT) all to be a decent spell caster!
Wow, imagine being smart and spending points on skills to be a good
spellcaster. What will they think of next?
>>And HERO right out of the box doesn't have a magic system, so it's a
>>rather silly comparison. You have to spend time making a system out of
>>the HERO rules, unless of course you want your mages to be 'superheros in
>>robes'.
>
>Actually, no you don't. All the classic trappings of requirements
>for magic systems: limited uses, extra time, components,
>concentration, based on a skill roll are in the HERO rules,
>with the idea that they would work best in a fantasy environment.
Sure, all the parts are there, but it's still "some assembly required".
Even for the simplest magic systems you have to decide which limitations
are appropriate and which are required, and as the system gets more
complex you have more and more work to do.
>>>>>But the biggest problem I have with GURPS is defenses. Armor makes you
>>>>>harder to hit as well as absorbing more damage. So putting plate mail
>on
>>>>>your character gives him a better dodge rating.
>>>>
>>>>Well, technically, it makes it harder to get a potentially damaging hit -
>>>>the blows are bouncing off the armor.
>>>
>>>...but of course AP attacks don't get through this any better...
>>
>>AP attacks don't go through DCV any better, either, so what's your point?
>
>Ah, but your armor in HERO doesn't make you harder to hit, (in fact it
>slows you down) it just makes you harder to _hurt_.
Shields? I think they're done as DCV bonuses...
>>>>>In GURPS there are few ways
>>>>>to improve a character's ability to not get hit outside of piling on
>>>better
>>>>>armor or improving his weapon skill (which increases his parrying as
>well
>>>>>as his attacking ability). So when I made a Dwarf character that was
>>>>>supposed to be hard to hit, the only way I could do that was sink as
>much
>>>>>as I could into DEX, which wasn't enough to give him a Dodge better than
>7
>>>>>or less.
>>>
>>>>Increasing your HT would have helped, too, since Dodge is based on Speed,
>>>>which is based on DX and HT.
>>>
>>>"Hurry, Hurry, step right up, with our super Health elixer, you'll not
>>>only feel better, but be able to dodge arrows better too!"
>>
>>Are you suggesting that someone who is in better physical shape is *not*
>>going to move faster and dodge better than a couch potato?
>
>Actually, I will say that. A true couch potato is not just going
>to have low HT, but likely low DX as well.
Oh, nit-pick. OK, a 'couch potato with equal DX'. Or someone with
asthma. Or someone who has some natural ability, but hasn't been jogging
and doing cardio workouts every day for the past 4 years like the guy with
the higher HT.
>>>>It sounds like you wanted a cinematic concept (someone who easily dodges
>>>>blows) and the GM was not using cinematic rules. That's a fault of
>either
>>>>the GM or a result of your incorrect assumptions about the setting/tone
>>>>of the game, not a flaw of the system.
>>>
>>>Of course, you had a concept that HERO does easily, out of the box.
>>
>>Because HERO does cinematic very well. I've never said that it doesn't.
>
>Then you're half the way there :) Seriously, though, if the GURPS camp
>would say something like "GURPS does realistic campaigns better than
>HERO, and HERO does cinematic better than GURPS" I doubt we would
>have any arguments here.
I disagree...I think that HERO does cinematic differently than GURPS.
Better is a matter of taste and the 'feel' of the campaign. GURPS
cinematic stuff handles differently, but I can and have used it and have
had great success.
>The reason
>I get involved with the GURPS threads is that some fans of GURPS
>want to make it the Be-All-And-End-All of game systems. It isn't.
Oh, I use both, and several other systems besides. I only get involved
in the thread when people say "GURPS can't do cinematic" which is just as
untrue as "GURPS is the best at everything."
>
>1>
>>>You foolishly did not buy your character many levels of luck or spend
>>>all of your experience on avoiding damage! How silly of you to actually
>>>be able to have a character who is hard to hit... [note for the newcomers
>>>here, buying high levels of luck, or spending character points to
>>>ignore damage are two of the standard retorts by GURPS proponents
>>>whenever "you're game isn't very cinematic" is brought up!]
>
>>Maybe because they're *cinematic options* for GURPS?
>
>That's true for the character points (which, in my estimation is a kludge)
True, I don't like it much either.
>the Luck thing seems to be a creation of USENET.
The Luck thing is just logical. Look at how many lucky breaks the
protagonists in cinematic books and movies get. How best to handle that?
Luck.
>>This is sort of like me saying "HERO sucks at doing realistic fights.
>>Peopel take tremendous amounts of damage and get thrown through walls all
>>the time." "Well, did you use any of the rules for optional realism, like
>>Hit Location, Bleeding, Knockdown?" "No."
>
>Point taken to a point. My problem with GURPS is that characters
>need to use an assortment of powers from several supplements that
>either the GM or players have to think of themselves to be cinematic.
That's true. (Although you can get away with just the Basic Set -
everything else is 'icing'.) Then again...Ninja Hero sold well, and a lot
of the book was "how to do cinematic tricks with HERO", so it sounds like
you have to think of a lot of things yourself in HERO too...
>The GURPS Stun rules and Cinematic damage rules
>(which are suggested for the purposes of making the game less
>realistic) are, to my mind, poorly implemented. Again this is a YMMV
>situation.
I've never even used the Stun rules. The 'flesh wound' rule I have used,
in a different form (giving out 'Hero Points' instead of requring XP
expenditure).
>>>Of course in Champions, you could simply have bought a high DEX
>>>and left it at that...
>>
>>"Gosh, I never knew Throg the Barbarian could juggle so well."
>
>Well, Throg would most likely have an obscenely high DX in GURPS
>too (since all combat characters must have that, after all--if they
>are written up properly). In HERO you have the option of buying
>up DEX or buying specific levels with your DCV (an option which
>is discussed in some detail).
You can make a decent combat character with a lower DX in GURPS by buying
up the weapons skill - this is more efficient if you focus on a single
type of weapon, but it works. It's the equivalent of buying skill levels
instead of DX in HERO. (Of course, in HERO many people would call you
insane for doing that because of how good a deal DX is for the points...)
>>>(how many pages of rules over how many books
>>>did we have to go through to get all of those options?) In HERO, I
>>>have two concepts to work with: DEX and Combat Levels. That's it.
>>>Yet they somehow manage to do exactly the same thing! Perhaps
>>>that's because HERO is largely a metasystem, and GURPS is not.
>>
>>And your point? Some people like the metasystem approach. Some people
>>like the more solidly defined and detailed system of GURPS. Both systems
>>can do realistic *or* cinematic games quite well if you have half a brain
>>and actually think instead of just whining.
>
>If I am going to make significant changes to a game system, a
>metasystem is inherently superior, because it has tools built in
>to help me make those changes.
*IF* you agree with the assumptions of the metasystem, of course.
Otherwise you're changing that and you're right back where you started...
>I could spend time changing
>and tweaking the rules in GURPS to make a good 4-color supers
>campaign, but I would be on my own in doing so. In HERO I
>would not.
And, like I said, sometimes being 'on your own' is easier, because you
don't feel like you have to conform to the metasystem. There are some
campaigns that I started to develop under one system, but that gravitated
to the other.
>>>If you like the system as presented in GURPS, it will work fine for you.
>>>If you want to make changes to it, you are completely left on your own,
>>>however.
>>
>>Except for all the examples that are out there.
>
>The truth may in fact be out there, but how much work am I going
>to have to go through to get at it? I don't even think Cancer Man
>knows the rationale behind the costs for GURPS abilities.
It's good enough for me to ballpark, which is all I need.
>>The lack of a metasystem in GURPS is also freeing in a way. I can make
>>changes to the magic system (or scrap it and start anew) without feeling
>>like I have to obey the metasystem. And its far easier to handle some
>>powers/spells/effects/whatever in GURPS than it is in HERO - slippery
>>floors and gravity control come to mind - because you have the freedom to
>>'just make something up'. Just try suggesting 'just make up a new power'
>>on the HERO list sometime...
>
>Here you make a very good point. In the places where the HERO
>system is undefined or broken (and there are such places) it can
>be difficult to determine where to go.
Tell me about it. And some concepts that can be done in the metasystem
require tremendous wrestling and hammering to 'get it right'.
> At the same time, if I DO have
>to make changes to HERO I have a _mostly_ consistent framework
>to start from. With GURPS I can just insert the rules as I want (which
>is pretty much how GURPS has evolved). If I am a good designer,
>everything will work out. At the same time, not having a framework
>to start from can cause some issues.
True. It all comes down to what you're familiar and comfortable with.
>>>Despite all of the arguing that is going on in this thread (and always
>>>does when this issue comes up) that's the key: look at both systems
>>>and make an informed choice.
>>
>>Agreed.
>
>And that's the real point, and its something we can both agree on.
J
cla...@mindspring.com
>
>Dr Nuncheon wrote (in response to me)
>
>
>>>>* Use S. John Ross' excellent "unlimited mana" (available in Pyramid #9
>>>>and on the web.
>>>
>>>In other words, make up a rule,
>>
>>Right. I forgot you're not allowed to do this.
>
>
>Of course you are. At the same time, if you have to make up
>a rule to cover a common case scenario, then your game system
>has issues. I can make up rules to turn AD&D into a superhero
>system, but that doesn't make it correct for me to say that
>AD&D is a great super hero game, now does it?
>
>
>>
>>>have the character buy an
>>>ability which does far more than what you need ("wow, Merlin,
>>>I would never have guessed you were such a good long distance
>>>runner!"),
>>
>>Or use a limiter on the Fatigue, just like you would in HERO.
>
>
>So I'll buy a power that is completely unrelated to my magic based
>character and apply a limitation from a completely different sourcebook
>all to simulate the fact that my character can cast a lot of spells?
How is "extra energy used to power spells" not related to a magic
based character. And the limitation "usable only for spells" isn't
listed anywhere, the GM would just set a cost. I'm sure the
limitation "only usable on Wednesday" isn't listed in Hero, but most
GMs would have no trouble coming up with a point cost.
>Unless I am mistaken, Limiters aren't mentioned in either GURPS
>3rd Edition (except for PSI powers) or even GURPS Magic (they
>may be in the latest printings, however).
>
It's in the Compendium I, essentially a collection of alternate rules
and changes from 3rd basic. Basic lets you create and play a wide
variety of characters, but some things aren't handled. Thats why
there are other books.
>>
>>> or see another supplement.
>>
>>...like you have to do to get a magic system for HERO?
>
>
>Odd. I somehow managed to run an entire campaign and play
>in another one with just the BBB. Fantasy Hero simply has
>examples of how to create different magic systems. The Meta-
>system is right in HERO.
>
>>
>>>All to do something that HERO does excellently out of the box.
>>
>>I forgot several, like 'buy up your skill to the point where your fatigue
>>costs are reduced.'
>
>
>So I spend tremendous numbers of points to make my character
>a god at casting his spells (in addition to buying him a near super-
>human INT) all to be a decent spell caster!
You forget that GURPS is a low powered game. If you make a "decent"
spell caster by your definition, he would destroy "decent" fighters
that cost the same number of points. If you want super hero power
level mages, it _should_ cost a lot of points.
>
>>
>>And HERO right out of the box doesn't have a magic system, so it's a
>>rather silly comparison. You have to spend time making a system out of
>>the HERO rules, unless of course you want your mages to be 'superheros in
>>robes'.
>
>
>Actually, no you don't. All the classic trappings of requirements
>for magic systems: limited uses, extra time, components,
>concentration, based on a skill roll are in the HERO rules,
>with the idea that they would work best in a fantasy environment.
And you have just made "superheroes in robes". If you're going to
disagree with someone, you shouldn't prove their point.
>
Hall
cla...@mindspring.com wrote in article <37dc1290.3994509@Goojuice>...
> >Actually, no you don't. All the classic trappings of requirements
> >for magic systems: limited uses, extra time, components,
> >concentration, based on a skill roll are in the HERO rules,
> >with the idea that they would work best in a fantasy environment.
>
> And you have just made "superheroes in robes". If you're going to
> disagree with someone, you shouldn't prove their point.
How has he made "superheroes in robes" by simply using the standard Hero
system rules to make mages?
SteveC
cla...@mindspring.com wrote (in response to me, SteveC)
>>>Or use a limiter on the Fatigue, just like you would in HERO.
>>
>>
>>So I'll buy a power that is completely unrelated to my magic based
>>character and apply a limitation from a completely different sourcebook
>>all to simulate the fact that my character can cast a lot of spells?
>
>How is "extra energy used to power spells" not related to a magic
>based character. And the limitation "usable only for spells" isn't
>listed anywhere, the GM would just set a cost. I'm sure the
>limitation "only usable on Wednesday" isn't listed in Hero, but most
>GMs would have no trouble coming up with a point cost.
Well, extra Fatigue (which, again, I believe is not even listed
in GURPS the basic rules but rather in the Compendium) adds
to Fatigue, which is completely unrelated to "manna" or "magic
power" in most people's eyes. That is a kludge added to fix a
gap in the rules. And while the GM could just make it up on the
spot, it is another example of where _I_ as a GM have to do
the work that the game designer could have up front. Additionally,
while HERO doesn't have the limitation "only on Wednesday" in
the rules, it has two things that the GURPS basic book (and Magic)
apparently do not:
1. It actually _has_ limitatons
2. It has a section called "conditional powers" that describes how
the GM can assign limitations like "only on Wednesday"
>
>>Unless I am mistaken, Limiters aren't mentioned in either GURPS
>>3rd Edition (except for PSI powers) or even GURPS Magic (they
>>may be in the latest printings, however).
>>
>It's in the Compendium I, essentially a collection of alternate rules
>and changes from 3rd basic. Basic lets you create and play a wide
>variety of characters, but some things aren't handled. Thats why
>there are other books.
Which is another limitation of the GURPS rules. I have one book
for HERO that is necessary to do that work. If you have been
involved in other discussions on the merits of game systems,
you should already know that having more than one rulebook to
cover common rule situations is considered bad.
>>So I spend tremendous numbers of points to make my character
>>a god at casting his spells (in addition to buying him a near super-
>>human INT) all to be a decent spell caster!
>
>You forget that GURPS is a low powered game. If you make a "decent"
>spell caster by your definition, he would destroy "decent" fighters
>that cost the same number of points. If you want super hero power
>level mages, it _should_ cost a lot of points.
>
Well GURPS is designed as a "Generic" and "Universal" system, so
I guess I wasn't aware that it was "low powered." Wait a second,
that's exactly the point I'm arguing _for_...(that it is designed to
cover "low powered" situations)
At the same time, a Mage's ability to cast a moderately powerful spell
with no fatigue would require skill far out of proportion to its worth.
>>
>>Actually, no you don't. All the classic trappings of requirements
>>for magic systems: limited uses, extra time, components,
>>concentration, based on a skill roll are in the HERO rules,
>>with the idea that they would work best in a fantasy environment.
>
>And you have just made "superheroes in robes". If you're going to
>disagree with someone, you shouldn't prove their point.
>>
You'll have to excuse me. What I have described above is basically
GURPS magic. Extra Time to cast spells, spells need a Skill Roll,
can use Components (like Power Stones), require Concentration and
Gestures and Incantations. So is GURPS Magic "superheroes in robes?"
Matt Blackwell
wrote:
>David Crowe wrote:
>> So you'd be paying for a lot of material you may or may not
>> like with GURPS: Supers. The Champions campaign section is
>> more about establishing and running with the campaign style
>> that suits you best, rather than trying to ram a specific world
>> down your throat.
>
> The IST section takes up a single 13 page chapter in Supers.
>Supers also covers other types of Super campaigns, it hardly
>'rams' a specific world down anyone's throat. Supers also
>licensed the Wild Cards world, which isn't exactly IST... There
>are two IST books, but no one puts a gun up to your head to buy
>it.
>
Still, the fact that there are two sourcebooks dealing with the IST
world tends to lend a bit of credence to the "IST is the 'offical' (or
as official as GURPS ever gets) GURPS Supers setting". I'll also
freely admit that most people who pick up a copy of GURPS Supers these
days won't ever see either of the IST books, or the Wildcard books
either...
> Incidentally, President Martin Luther King's replacement in
>the upcoming IST update is Pat Buchannon. If having a liberal
>president in the campaign was what bothers you, perhaps this will
>cheer you up...
Sigh. No, actually that adds yet another "Thing about the IST setting
that cause me to bang my head against the desk" entry to my list.
Speaking as a conservative, Tawny the Talking Tiger has a better
chance of getting elected in the real world than Pat does. And even in
a fictional world, his chances aren't too good....
cla...@mindspring.com
>
>cla...@mindspring.com wrote (in response to me, SteveC)
>
ve no trouble coming up with a point cost.
>
>
>Well, extra Fatigue (which, again, I believe is not even listed
>in GURPS the basic rules but rather in the Compendium) adds
>to Fatigue, which is completely unrelated to "manna" or "magic
>power" in most people's eyes.
Which doesn't matter. GURPS doesn't describe some general concept of
magic "as people understand it" it describes a specific style of
magic that involves mages who are tired out by their magic.
If you want to play this style then it's fine, if not get another book
or make up your own.
With Hero, you get no magic style at all with the main book, but all
the rules
SD Anderson
> Still, the fact that there are two sourcebooks dealing with the
> IST world tends to lend a bit of credence to the "IST is the
> 'offical' (or as official as GURPS ever gets) GURPS Supers
> setting"
That was never disputed. It also wasn't the claim Mr. Crowe
made. The two IST source books are NOT part of the Supers book.
There is a small section in Supers covering IST but nowhere
near the sort of size Crowe was complaining about, and as I
pointed out, nor was there an absence of other types of campaigns
covered in Supers.
SD Anderson
> in GURPS the basic rules but rather in the Compendium)
Compendium 1 is part of the core rules.
The key point is that Both HERO and GURPS presume magic
casting is TIRING. It is no more out of the ordinary for a GURPS
spell caster to buy up extra fatigue than it is for a Fantasy
Hero character to buy up extra END. Hero makes END considerably
cheaper to buy than Extra Fatigue in GURPS but GURPS has a couple
of mechanisms to lower costs and/or build up Fatigue supplies
that aren't available to a standard Non-Heroic campaign based
mage OR to a played by the rules Champions game.
John Desmarais
1.production.compuserve.com>, SD Anderson
Actually, Hero makes no such presumption about magic. The
Hero rules do not detail a system for magic but instead
provide you with a set of standardized and reasonable well
balanced tools for creating effects, which include modifers
for determining whether or not said effect costs END -
thereby leaving it up to the designer of the magic system
to determine whether or not magic is tiring.
-=>John Desmarais
http://www.sysabend.org/champions
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GryMor
SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM> wrote:
> The key point is that Both HERO and GURPS presume magic
>casting is TIRING. It is no more out of the ordinary for a GURPS
>spell caster to buy up extra fatigue than it is for a Fantasy
>Hero character to buy up extra END. Hero makes END considerably
>cheaper to buy than Extra Fatigue in GURPS but GURPS has a couple
>of mechanisms to lower costs and/or build up Fatigue supplies
>that aren't available to a standard Non-Heroic campaign based
>mage OR to a played by the rules Champions game.
Hmmm... Hero presuposes that everything is tiring... unless it isn't :)
If you want to have a mage that tires from casting magic, you can have
one, alternativly you can have one that has a mana pool, or a set number
of castings per day (in most varieties). Now, the extension book, Fantasy
Hero has a magic system where mages get tired from casting spells. But
this isn't the core rules, the core rules allow you to set it up nearly
any way you went, within the rules with costs based directly on the rules.
No need to come up with your own system, no need to have your magic be
like one specific sub genre of the arcane... I don't think GURPS does
this.
--
Steve 'GryMor' Metke bani Virtual Adepts me...@cc.wwu.edu \ /\
Goth code 98 uSKija6CaPjaiaaaGbaa54hAMGULv1jnq???b4FOiGa3 \ / \
d1aab5aaaaaaae0aaTNahhbjvpk3aaasNbqePGnDhaaaacausWA \ /----\
Reality's just a bunch of bits. Aku Soku Zan \/ \
SD Anderson
> Actually, Hero makes no such presumption about magic. The
> Hero rules do not detail a system for magic but instead
> provide you with a set of standardized and reasonable well
> balanced tools for creating effects, which include modifers
> for determining whether or not said effect costs END -
They make the presumption that any sort of power costs END.
The DEFAULT power/spell/whatever costs END. Hero provides
means for characters to get around this default cost. GURPS does
as well.
Point being?
SD Anderson
> isn't :) If you want to have a mage that tires from casting
> magic, you can have one, alternativly you can have one that has
> a mana pool, or a set number
The issue being that someone upthread was saying a GURPS
Wizard who had extra Fatigue was freaky, but he didn't seem
particularly bothered by Hero wizards with loads of END.
SteveC
SD Anderson <10225...@CompuServe.COM>
(in response to me, Steve C)
>> Well, extra Fatigue (which, again, I believe is not even listed
>> in GURPS the basic rules but rather in the Compendium)
>
> Compendium 1 is part of the core rules.
You may very well define it so. SJG may even define it so, but
that does not necessarily make it so. For me, the "core rulebook"
for a game system is just that. When someone gets into GURPS
as a newbie, are you telling me they need to buy GURPS, CI, CII,
High Tech, Magic, Supers and exactly how many other books to
get what they could get from the BBB? Its not as if making a
character with more magical energy than normal is some strange
case that never comes up in play. In fact, it came up in every GURPS
campaign I ever ran that used magic.
If you want to argue against the notion that fewer books for core
rules = better, please let me know, and also be consistent with that!
>
> The key point is that Both HERO and GURPS presume magic
>casting is TIRING. It is no more out of the ordinary for a GURPS
>spell caster to buy up extra fatigue than it is for a Fantasy
>Hero character to buy up extra END. Hero makes END considerably
>cheaper to buy than Extra Fatigue in GURPS but GURPS has a couple
>of mechanisms to lower costs and/or build up Fatigue supplies
>that aren't available to a standard Non-Heroic campaign based
>mage OR to a played by the rules Champions game.
Well actually it is, since it is not mentioned as a concept in GURPS
Magic (again, at least not in the edition that I have). And HERO
inherently makes no assumptions about magic being tiring, leaving
it up to you to decide, as with all powers. Additionally, the END
rules in HERO are VERY different from the fatigue rules from GURPS,
as I am sure you are aware.
cla...@mindspring.com
What are you talking about? Hero makes the assumption that _every_
power is tiring.
Sean Brasher
> power is tiring.
This is true, but only to make the powers more balanced when purchasing
them. They could just as easily have said that no powers were tiring and
make all of the powers slightly more expensive, and that having a power
actually be tiring would be a small limitation, thus driving the price down
to the levels they start at now. It would be the same thing, just with more
math.
This is not an assumption, it is just a starting point, because you have
to start somewhere before you can start editing the power with advantages
and limitations.
John Desmarais
1.production.compuserve.com>, SD Anderson
> provides means for characters to get around this
> default cost. GURPS does as well.
>
> Point being?
The point being that there is no "default" spell or spell
system in Hero. A spell is a game effect created by
combining basic powers, adventages, and limitations in
order to achieve said game effect. While the "default"
state for most (but not all) powers is to cost END, since
there is not an actual magic system included in the Hero
rules there is not a default state for a magic spell. The
person designing the magic system decides which advantages
and limitations will make up the default state for their
magic system, and that default state can be 0 END just as
easily as it could be Costs END.
This differs from GURPS in that GURPS does include a
distinct magic system with a definite "default" state of
magic tiring the caster.
Hero's ability to provide the GM with a clear system to
define his or her own magic system is both a strength and a
weakness of the game system. The upside is that it allows
the GM to easily create a magic system that fits his or her
game. The downside is that it requires that the GM create
a magic system (as there isn't one in the rules).
-=>John D.
Mike Harvey
> >In other words, make up a rule,
>
> Right. I forgot you're not allowed to do this.
A lot of people who like to bash AD&D complain when AD&Ders claim that
"its not broken because you can fix it with house rules." Personally I
don't see what the big deal is, since everyone uses house rules anyway
and tweaking the rules is half the fun. But it seems to be politically
incorrect on USENET to make the suggestion.
> > or see another supplement.
>
> ...like you have to do to get a magic system for HERO?
[snip]
> And HERO right out of the box doesn't have a magic system, so it's a
> rather silly comparison. You have to spend time making a system out of
> the HERO rules, unless of course you want your mages to be 'superheros in
> robes'.
Not necessarily. Traditionally, a wizard is just a man with supernatural
powers: a superhero in robes as you call it. The specifics of how those
powers are acquired or invoked is often vague. Therefore the classic
magic of myth and fantasy often *is* superhero magic, a set of
unchanging supernatural powers which are innately possessed by the
wizard. Such powers may be due to fairy (or demon) blood, a pact with a
supernatural entity, or left unexplained. How often have you read
something like "Mr. X has the ability to turn himself into a snake,
because his father was a demon?" Hero models this type of magic
perfectly without any extra work. It can also do the spell-oriented
scholarly style of magic, but you are correct that it does take a little
more work to set it up. It can also do D&D style "prepared magic" pretty
easily, something that is considerably trickier to implement in GURPS.
Hero also does magic items in a traditional way: part of the wizards
life force (character points) is bound into the item. There are many
examples of wizards creating magic items in this way; Sauron's Ring is
the most obvious, but don't forget the dwarven smith who never casts a
spell but labors for five years over a sword, or the wizard who goes
into his tent and whips up a special magic item in 15 minutes, the
sorcerer who uses his own blood in an enchantment, or the witch stirring
her pot of brew. GURPS uses the scholarly method of chanting spells for
weeks on end.
The point is that both are good, traditional styles of magic. I am
convinced that people who complain about "superhero" magic either
haven't considered the issue thoroughly, or else haven't read much
fantasy literature.
Note: I am not addressing psionics here. GURPS psionics are essentially
superpowers and are easily duplicated by stock Champions powers.
> >Of course in Champions, you could simply have bought a high DEX
> >and left it at that...
>
> "Gosh, I never knew Throg the Barbarian could juggle so well."
Raising DEX from 10 to 20 will only add +2 to juggling skill, and then
only if the player has already invested 2 CP in it (which suggests that
the character is *supposed* to know how to juggle.) In GURPS it would
give you +10 to juggling skill, probably resulting in 15 or less even if
you'd never studied juggling and had not even invested half a character
point on it.
In Champions the best way to improve defensive skill is to buy skill
levels, and use them defensively.
> The lack of a metasystem in GURPS is also freeing in a way. I can make
> changes to the magic system (or scrap it and start anew) without feeling
> like I have to obey the metasystem. And its far easier to handle some
> powers/spells/effects/whatever in GURPS than it is in HERO - slippery
> floors and gravity control come to mind - because you have the freedom to
> 'just make something up'. Just try suggesting 'just make up a new power'
> on the HERO list sometime...
It is VERY freeing. In fact this is the main gripe that I have with
Hero. I tend to treat powers very loosely, reasoning that the whole idea
is to arrive at a reasonable point cost, not to limit your creativity.
But sadly that is an unpopular opinion among Hero afficianados.
> ("Lessee, that's an 8d6 EB, with AP
> limited to be 'only vs. metal armor'...or maybe I should give all the
> metal armors the disadvantage "not vs. electrical attacks"?)
That is also a serious problem with Hero, and one reason why I did not
take a "literal" approach to powers.
Mike
Mike Harvey
> >Well actually it is, since it is not mentioned as a concept in GURPS
> >Magic (again, at least not in the edition that I have). And HERO
> >inherently makes no assumptions about magic being tiring,
>
> power is tiring.
That is only a default, which is easily changed with modifiers. Some
alternatives:
-- Use Delayed spells, so the END cost is spent up front (and
represents time in intense meditation) but there is no END
cost at the actual time of activating the spell.
-- Give powers zero END cost.
-- Define powers to draw from a personal END reserve, which
essentially is a pool of non-fatiguing spell points.
-- Draw your magic from an enchanted item, such as a magic staff
or a ring. (The item has an independent END reserve which
represents its capacity to store magical energy.)
-- Use charges on your powers, "X times per day".
-- Use recoverable charges on your powers to represent deriving
magic from material components.
-- Use the MANA system from FH Companion II.
-- Make up a house rule (this works in GURPS too)
Mike
Mike Harvey
>
> Mike B <mi...@ausworld.net> wrote in article <37d3...@news.ausworld.net>...
>
> : Another solution that Champions offers but Gurps does not is the "reduced
> : Endurance Cost". Introducing something similar for Gurps would no doubt
>
> increases his skill in a spell (his ability to cast it correctly) he can
> reduce the amount of power he personally has to invest in it.
Better is in the eye of the Beholder. GURPS works fine in this regard,
but it is very expensive to raise a skill up to around level 20 (unless
you raise IQ, Magery, and Eidetic Memory, which is also expensive, but
also raises all your magical skills). The problem with the GURPS
approach is that the rules *dictate* how the world functions. I prefer
to design the world first, and then make the rules conform to the world.
What if I want a mage to have a spell at skill 8 which costs zero
energy?
> HERO are pretty good to, but the plethora of strategies I detailed above
> (not counting homebrew rules) make for a much richer possible tapestry of
> mages.
Hmm, I actually find that Hero gives many many more possibilities and
choices. Ironically I think that GURPS is fun because it is more
limited. Since the rules rigidly define what is and is not possible, and
how subsystems interact with one another, you can have all sorts of fun
tweaking and exploiting loopholes in the system. Hero gives you a wide
open playing field and lets you do whatever you want, but that is not
necessarily more fun because it is almost too easy to do.
> HERO: I'm still more comfortable with the rules thus character design is
> easier.
Mm, GURPS seems easier to me, because it has fewer stats and the math is
simpler. OTOH it has a lot more details to keep track of, so I guess
they're about the same. Certainly both systems are very time consuming.
However I do find that because Hero has a finite set of rules, I can
memorize the basic list and I don't have to hunt around in the books
looking for what I want.
> GURPS: Vast array of HIGH quality source material (useable in ANY system),
> more realistic low level combat (ie-non supers), VASTLY superior psionics
> rules (the Psionics sourcebook is just fantastic)
Agreed on the source material! Combat is deadlier, but not always more
realistic. Haven't really looked at the psionics too closely, as it's
not a style of magic that really appeals to me much.
> AD&D: Great Maps, Very detailed Fantasy Source Material which can be
> converted into either of the two systems above-with a little work.
No arguments there.
Mike
Nightshade
>A lot of people who like to bash AD&D complain when AD&Ders claim that
>"its not broken because you can fix it with house rules." Personally I
>don't see what the big deal is, since everyone uses house rules anyway
>and tweaking the rules is half the fun. But it seems to be politically
>incorrect on USENET to make the suggestion.
Because it makes any discussion of the merits of a rules set
pointless. If any bug can be written off to "You can fix that with a
house rule" then any set of rules is just as good as any other for any
person. It destroys a good part of the basis for comparison, which is
what's actually in the game, not what four thousand people have in
their houserules.
Mike Harvey
> I am considering purchasing Champions material, but want to make an
> informed choice. If possible, could you guys run through this list
> for me?
>
> 1. Which is better (overall) for Supers?
Champs.
> 2. Which is better (overall) for Sci-Fi?
Hard call. I played in a wonderful sci-fi game once using Hero rules.
Very cinematic, rather like Star Wars or maybe Star Frontiers. (!) I was
not especially impressed with Star Hero, and think that the standard
Hero rulebook would be sufficient. The Hero bestiary would also be good
(and it includes writeups for Godzilla, Alien, and Predator).
GURPS is cool because it is very gritty and has tons of source material.
GURPS Space is the best generic book for running space campaigns I've
ever seen. However, in high tech games GURPS is extremely deadly. Also,
GURPS Vehicles is notorious for being horribly complex.
I wouldn't really recommend one over the other. If you like Star Wars or
Star Trek (main heroes never die, magical/psionic effects are common,
and technology is fantastical), you'll probably be happier with Hero. If
you like Aliens or Traveller (PCs are ordinary folks who die like anyone
else, magic is rare or nonexistent, and technology is realistic), you'll
probably like GURPS better.
> 3. Which is better (overall) for Fantasy?
Hard call again. Depends on what you want.
GURPS is easy to setup and go, but it makes a LOT of assumptions about
your world, and adopts a gritty scientific viewpoint. Magical effects
are described in scientific terms, which tends to make them seem less
wondrous. My biggest peeve is that GURPS seems to incorporate many of
the agendas and prejudices of its designers. For example, dungeons are
for silly children, and cinematic gaming is inferior because it is dumb
and unrealistic. Chainmail is less effective than leather armor, and
blunt weapons carry a hefty damage penalty. Many of these are supposed
to be more "realistic" but in some cases that is questionable, in some
cases it is just plain wrong, and in some cases it is no fun to be
realistic. GURPS kind of reminds me of an arrogant intellectual who is
out to correct everyone else's "incorrect" view of the world.
HERO takes more work for the GM to setup, because it makes very few
assumptions about the world and gives you very little ready-to-use
material. The biggest assumption is that people are hard to kill. Hero
also has a sort of editorial agenda, which can basically be summed up
as: "Heroes are good and noble. Thieves and assassins aren't very
heroic, unless they are Robin Hood types. Players should be heroes, not
villains." Most of the rules are more generic than GURPS, and weapons
and armor are balanced and traditional. HERO reminds me of a
beer-and-pretzels type of guy who thinks that Rambo and Terminator were
cool movies and just wants to have fun without worrying about whether
its realistic or not.
In short, if you want a grimly realistic game (with occasional cinematic
moments), AND you like the particular GURPS interpretation of it, then
you'll have a blast with GURPS. If you want realism but don't like the
GURPS interpretation, it may still work, but you'll need to tweak it. If
you want comic book or movie or anime style action (with occasional grim
moments), Hero is almost certainly a better choice.
It may also help to look at demographics. Almost all the Hero players
I've encountered play either Supers, or Fantasy, or both. Most GURPS
players seem to like cyperpunk and X-files type stuff.
> 4. What are the major differences between Champions and GURPS?
GURPS has 4 attributes which directly affect skills. It does not scale
up to high power levels easily, but provides lots and lots of detail for
low powered characters. GURPS has tons and tons of skills and other
traits, enough to fill two large books. Each skill has special rules.
This means that you either:
(1) use only a subset of the available skills, but memorize their
descriptions
(2) use all the skills, but have to look up the rules when you use them
(3) use all the skills but mostly ignore the special rules for each
skill
Skills have prerequisites and defaults. Combat has three different
killing-damage types, but some people (including me) feel that they are
unrealistic and poorly implemented. Combat is very deadly. Everyone
moves at essentially the same speed. Nonhuman monsters have a special
but fairly simple format. Spaceships have their own construction system.
HERO is 14 attributes which have only a slight effect on skills. It
scales very easily up to higher power levels, and provides little detail
at low levels. Hero is a very short skills list, short enough to
memorize. The skills are generic and customizable, so any GURPS skill
has a Hero equivalent. Most skills have no default, and there is no
prerequisite system. Combat has one basic killing-damage type, and also
has a stun-damage type. It is usually easier to knock a person out than
it is to kill them. Characters can have different speeds in combat.
Nonhuman monsters are constructed the same way as characters. Spaceships
are constructed the same way as characters.
Both systems have equally intricate and detailed combat systems, with
lots of combat maneuvers. GURPS combat is based on ordinary skills, and
tries to be realistic. Hero combat is separate from the skills system,
and tries to emulate "hollywood reality".
GURPS uses english weights and measures, while Hero is metric.
> 5. How are they similar?
Both are generic and universal. Both date from the early 1980s, and can
probably be classified as "second generation" games.
Both use six-sided dice exclusively. Both use 3d6 for skill resolution.
Both have a basic mechanic of "roll less than or equal to a target
number." Both represent difficulty with die-roll modifiers.
Both divide the character up into Attributes, Advantages, Limitations,
and Skills. (In Hero, advantages are further broken down into Talents,
Perks, and Powers.) Both use character points to buy abilities and
balance characters. Taking limitations gives you extra character points
to buy abilities with. Both have borrowed ideas from each other. Both
are fairly complicated (GURPS is complicated by the thousands of
specific and detailed rules, while Hero is complicated by the math and
intricate relationships between powers.)
Both have detailed and intricate combat systems. Both are equally
combat-oriented, and the combat rules take up about half the rulebook.
Both use a hex-grid for movement, and are playable as a tabletop
wargame. Both can be time consuming, and you can easily spend an hour or
two on a big combat -- but you get a much greater degree of realism and
detail than in, say, D&D.
> 6. What is Champions like, overall, in terms of usage of points and game
> structure?
It is like GURPS. They are like evil twins of each other, which followed
different evolutionary paths, but which started with the same basic idea
and structure. (The reality is a bit different, but that is what they
look like.)
Mike
Dr Nuncheon
Mike Harvey <michael...@intel.com> wrote:
>Dr Nuncheon wrote:
>> >In other words, make up a rule,
>>
>> Right. I forgot you're not allowed to do this.
>
>"its not broken because you can fix it with house rules." Personally I
>don't see what the big deal is, since everyone uses house rules anyway
>and tweaking the rules is half the fun. But it seems to be politically
>incorrect on USENET to make the suggestion.
I honestly take a more moderate approach to that. Yeah, you can fix a lot
of AD&D's probvlems with house rules, but at some point, you've changed
the system so much that you can't reasonably discuss its merits as those
of AD&D.
To get AD&D to where I wanted it to be, I'd have to graft on a good skill
system, remove classes, revamp combat, rip out the alignment system...at
which point I've removed or replaced more than half the system. Minor
flaws can be fixed with house rules...huge, game-spanning ones can, too,
but then you're no longer really playing the same game that everyone else
is.
>> > or see another supplement.
>>
>> ...like you have to do to get a magic system for HERO?
>[snip]
>> And HERO right out of the box doesn't have a magic system, so it's a
>> rather silly comparison. You have to spend time making a system out of
>> the HERO rules, unless of course you want your mages to be 'superheros in
>> robes'.
>
>Not necessarily. Traditionally, a wizard is just a man with supernatural
>powers: a superhero in robes as you call it. The specifics of how those
>powers are acquired or invoked is often vague.
On the other hand, within a mythos or belief structure, the magic tends to
be consistent - which you would *not* get from using the HERO power system
unadorned.
>The point is that both are good, traditional styles of magic. I am
>convinced that people who complain about "superhero" magic either
>haven't considered the issue thoroughly, or else haven't read much
>fantasy literature.
Well, let's think about some fantasy literature.
In The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, Gandalf's exact abilities are left
vague, but we get the impression that certain words have power, that magic
generally reqires incantations, and that there are things magic is capable
of and things it is not capable of. It can cause blasts of light and/or
fire, but it cannot teleport people, and the ability to turn invisible is
a rare and wondrous thing. (It can also not apparently let you see the
invisible.)
If a character showed up in LOTR that was invulnerable to weapons, could
fly, and shoot laser beams from his eyes, he would be completely
unbelievable, because he doesn't fit the vision of magic that we are given
in the books.
Magic needs to have some internal consistency and limitations to make a
good story.
SD Anderson
> Because it makes any discussion of the merits of a rules set
> pointless. If any bug can be written off to "You can fix that
> with a house rule" then any set of rules is just as good as any
> other for any person. It destroys a good part of the basis for
> comparison, which is what's actually in the game,
There is a distinction between house rules and optional rules
in that optional rules are written down and available to any
players, and far more discussable in forums like usenet. The
'Richter standard' holds a game's fixes to to it's core rules.
Up until Compendium, GURPS had a number of holes in this regard.
David Johnston
Actually I was the person in question, and yes, I think Hero wizards
with loads of END are freaky. But it's so cheap that it's tempting,
whereas GURPS extra fatigue is so expensive as to be a questionable
investment.
SD Anderson
> The point being that there is no "default" spell or spell
> system in Hero. A spell is a game effect created by combining
> basic powers, adventages, and limitations in order to achieve
> said game effect. While the "default" state for most (but not
> all) powers is to cost END, since there is not an actual magic
> system included in the Hero rules there is not a default state
> for a magic spell. The person designing the magic system
> decides which advantages and limitations will make up the
> default state for their magic system, and that default state
> can be 0 END just as easily as it could be Costs END.
Translation: Game Mechanically Hero's system costs End to work
magicks, has ways to change that and a GM can make characters
take those options.
Again I ask: Point being?
SD Anderson
> because you have to start somewhere before you can start
> editing the power with advantages and limitations.
It is an assumption, or presumption or axiom or whatever other
word you'd care to pull up from a thesarus in place of
'assumption'.
The original claim up thread was that GURPS mages had to have
Herculean ST levels to cast spells, with a later caveat that
buying extra fatigue was 'freaky'. GURPS mages rarely get
designed with Herculean ST levels in actual play.
Buying extra fatigue is no more and no less freaky than buying
extra END in Hero.
SD Anderson
> they need to buy GURPS, CI, CII, High Tech, Magic, Supers and
> exactly how many other books to get what they could get from
> the BBB?
If you check the writer's guidelines SJG puts up on it's site,
you'll discover there is a core rules plus one MAXIMUM
requirement for any book they publish. Check the back cover of a
GURPS book such as GURPS Traveller, and you'll find it requires
Basic, CI, Space. It recommends others but the core rules as
stated there are Basic & CI, not an umpteen book long list.
The problem with arguing by exageration is that once the trick
you use is exposed, you have a long embarrassing retreat to
make...
SD Anderson
> That is only a default, which is easily changed with modifiers.
Yes, a Hero GM can impose these modifiers uniformly in his
game world.
And in GURPS a GM can rule the world he runs is Very High Mana
and fatigue costs for spells merely restrict the size of an area
a mage may cast a spell, since the energy he spends is instantly
replenished and effectively removes the 'tiring' limitation.
There is no significant difference between the systems in this
matter.
SD Anderson
> Chainmail is less effective than leather armor
Huh? Chainmail weighs 45 lbs vs 20 lbs for Heavy Leather
" costs $550 vs $350 for Heavy Leather
Chainmail Provides PD 3/1 vs PD 2 for Heavy Leather
Chainmail provides DR 4/2 vs DR 2 for Heavy Leather.
Only in one area (attacks by impaling weapons) is Chain
inferior to *Heavy* leather armor. It ties with HL for DR if the
weapon attacking is impaling. In all other respects it is
superior. Well you could argue that chain costs more than
leather and weighs more.
Welcome to real life.
SD Anderson
> Actually I was the person in question, and yes, I think Hero
> wizards with loads of END are freaky. But it's so cheap that
> it's tempting, whereas GURPS extra fatigue is so expensive as
> to be a questionable investment.
3 pts per point of fatigue isn't that expensive. Compared to
Hero's cost for extra END yes but Hero Games undervalued END
IMHO.
David Johnston
>
> David Johnstone wrote:
> > Actually I was the person in question, and yes, I think Hero
> > wizards with loads of END are freaky. But it's so cheap that
> > it's tempting, whereas GURPS extra fatigue is so expensive as
> > to be a questionable investment.
>
> 3 pts per point of fatigue isn't that expensive.
Oh, they've made it cheaper again, have they? Well, I haven't
got the later Gurps stuff so I didn't know what I was talking
about.
Mike Harvey
> If a character showed up in LOTR that was invulnerable to weapons, could
> fly, and shoot laser beams from his eyes, he would be completely
> unbelievable, because he doesn't fit the vision of magic that we are given
> in the books.
>
> Magic needs to have some internal consistency and limitations to make a
> good story.
I'm not sure how that came into question. Of course you need to exercise
some restraint and aesthetic in deciding what effects to allow into the
gameworld.
BTW, this applies to GURPS as well. It is quite easy to construct a
GURPS mage who Flies and Breathes Fire in combat -- and that wouldn't
fit into the Lord of the Rings either.
Mike
Sidhain
>stated there are Basic & CI, not an umpteen book long list.
>
> The problem with arguing by exageration is that once the trick
>you use is exposed, you have a long embarrassing retreat to
>make...
Just a note, the whole reason the Compendium exist is because Gurps 3rd
Edition has been out for years--Just like original Champions consisted of
several sets of rules spread out among several books that was later revised
and merged into one book--
AFAIK plans are for a Gurps 4th that will put the Compendium info in the
main rulebook, thus making it a one book system again.
Hall
Dr Nuncheon <je...@fnord.io.com> wrote in message
news:7r9a9u$a0c$1...@hiram.io.com...
> In article <37D8148C...@intel.com>,
> Mike Harvey <michael...@intel.com> wrote:
> >Dr Nuncheon wrote:
> >> >In other words, make up a rule,
> >>
> >> Right. I forgot you're not allowed to do this.
> >
> >A lot of people who like to bash AD&D complain when AD&Ders claim that
> >"its not broken because you can fix it with house rules." Personally I
> >don't see what the big deal is, since everyone uses house rules anyway
> >and tweaking the rules is half the fun. But it seems to be politically
> >incorrect on USENET to make the suggestion.
>
> I honestly take a more moderate approach to that. Yeah, you can fix a lot
> of AD&D's probvlems with house rules, but at some point, you've changed
> the system so much that you can't reasonably discuss its merits as those
> of AD&D.
>
> To get AD&D to where I wanted it to be, I'd have to graft on a good skill
> system, remove classes, revamp combat, rip out the alignment system...at
> which point I've removed or replaced more than half the system. Minor
> flaws can be fixed with house rules...huge, game-spanning ones can, too,
> but then you're no longer really playing the same game that everyone else
> is.
Gee, when I said that about Aberrant everyone ripped me a new a**hole . . .
Belldandy
Dr Nuncheon wrote in message <7r9a9u$a0c$1...@hiram.io.com>...
>If a character showed up in LOTR that was invulnerable to weapons, could
>fly, and shoot laser beams from his eyes, he would be completely
>unbelievable, because he doesn't fit the vision of magic that we are given
>in the books.
The Lord of the Nazgul was invulnerable to weapons wielded by Men, could
fly on his winged mount, and projected a tangible aura of terror: "She
(Eowyn) raised her shield against the horror of her enemy's eyes."
In general, though, you are correct. I recall an old article from _The
Dragon_: "Gandalf was a 3rd-level Magic-User." Generally, the magic of
Middle-Earth was not strong.