Different kinds of games
dred...@alphalink.com.au
I'm in the process of writing an article about RPGs and the potential
advantages for intellectually gifted children in bein encouraged to play
them.
The thing is that while I'm a long time gamer, I'm not really up on anything
released in the last few years (ie since about 1990, I don't have the time or
the money) and my own interests have been limited to a few games - AD&D,
Storyteller, Dragon Warriors, and Paranoia mostly.
What I'm looking for is games that are 'suitable for younger children' say
under 10 years old. These kids are easily intelligent enough to handle the
mechanics of games, and most of them are good roleplayers, but games that are
based around combat or horror can be disturbing to them (or, often,
disturbing to their parents). I'm thinking that games like 'Toon' or 'Bunnies
and Burrows' - games with potential for a lot of silliness and humour, might
be better for some of these kids and I am fishing for suggestions of games
like that - when this article goes out, it's quite likely I'll be asked for
suggestions of 'non-violent' games.
Any ideas?
Shaun Hately
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Epidiah
>What I'm looking for is games that are 'suitable for younger children' say
>under 10 years old. These kids are easily intelligent enough to handle the
>mechanics of games, and most of them are good roleplayers, but games that
are
>based around combat or horror can be disturbing to them (or, often,
>disturbing to their parents). I'm thinking that games like 'Toon' or
'Bunnies
>and Burrows' - games with potential for a lot of silliness and humour,
might
>be better for some of these kids and I am fishing for suggestions of games
>like that - when this article goes out, it's quite likely I'll be asked for
>suggestions of 'non-violent' games.
>
>Any ideas?
I'd recommend FUDGE. It's easily modified to any genre appropriate to
children and the system is freeform, allowing for less restrictions on
character creation. Besides that, it's free.
Although not conventionally a role-playing game, Once Upon a Time could also
be useful.
-Eppy
dred...@alphalink.com.au
"Epidiah" <Epidiah_...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> I'd recommend FUDGE. It's easily modified to any genre appropriate to
> children and the system is freeform, allowing for less restrictions on
> character creation. Besides that, it's free.
While FUDGE might be useful if I'm writing the game, I'm also looking for
games they can run themselves and I'm not sure that fits the bill. How hard
is it to set up FUDGE? I've really only ever glanced at it - while I like the
concept, if I'm going to run a game based on a genre I've had to work up, I'm
more likely to run it sans system, or with my own custom system.
Thanks for the suggestion though - I'll have to look at it more closely, as a
coherent consistent system may be very useful for these kids in making up
their own games eventually.
I also am hoping to find some commercial games suggestions - something parents
can actually buy (it increases the chance they will take up the ideas).
Michael T. Richter
introducing people in general to role-playing (including a bright 10-year
old).
--
Michael T. Richter <m...@ottawa.com> http://www.igs.net/~mtr/
PGP Key: http://www.igs.net/~mtr/pgp-key.html
PGP Fingerprint: 40D1 33E0 F70B 6BB5 8353 4669 B4CC DD09 04ED 4FE8
albu...@yahoo.com
> >under 10 years old. These kids are easily intelligent enough to handle the
> >mechanics of games, and most of them are good roleplayers, but games that
> are
> >based around combat or horror can be disturbing to them (or, often,
> >disturbing to their parents). I'm thinking that games like 'Toon' or
> 'Bunnies
> >and Burrows' - games with potential for a lot of silliness and humour,
> might
> >be better for some of these kids and I am fishing for suggestions of games
> >like that - when this article goes out, it's quite likely I'll be asked for
> >suggestions of 'non-violent' games.
> >
> >Any ideas?
>
> children and the system is freeform, allowing for less restrictions on
> character creation. Besides that, it's free.
>
> be useful.
I think FUDGE is far too complex for younger children, and it also isn't a
particularly fun RPG, so it might be better to start them off with something
lighter and more flexible. My recommendation would probably be Toon.
But your idea of starting them with a card game is probably even better. OUAT
isn't a bad idea, but very limited. Any card game with an emphasis on
character would also do well, such as Middle Earth or Quest for the Grail.
Of course, if you make the games non-violent that's going to substantially
reduce their attractiveness to the actual kids you want to appeal to.
Al>
Epidiah
dred...@alphalink.com.au wrote in message
<73u4tq$3e3$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>While FUDGE might be useful if I'm writing the game, I'm also looking for
>games they can run themselves and I'm not sure that fits the bill. How hard
>is it to set up FUDGE? I've really only ever glanced at it - while I like
the
>concept, if I'm going to run a game based on a genre I've had to work up,
I'm
>more likely to run it sans system, or with my own custom system.
While FUDGE itself encourages the GM to come up with a set of attributes and
the game world in general, I hardly ever play it that way. Usually I just
let my players make characters however they see appropriate. No two players
in my FUDGE game have the same set of attributes. I find that this allows
the players much more influence on the gaming world than they usually have.
If a player wants to create a mage, I work it out with that player until we
come up with a magic system we both can agree on.
The reason I think this method might be especially appropriate to children
is because they have a habit of surprising adults. Personally, I'd just read
a book with the children, tell them that you'll be playing a game set in
that world, and watch them go. All they really need to know about FUDGE is
easy enough. Especially if you're using the subjective character creation,
which requires no number crunching.
Actually, I'd go one step further and recommend that you use Watership Down
(the book or the movie) and a Bunnies & Burrows with FUDGE. Mainly because
I'm sure I would have loved that as a kid. All you would need to do is come
up with the adventure, I'm sure the kids would take care of everything else
.
-Eppy
Steffan O'Sullivan
>Actually, I'd go one step further and recommend that you use Watership Down
>(the book or the movie) and a Bunnies & Burrows with FUDGE. Mainly because
>I'm sure I would have loved that as a kid. All you would need to do is come
>up with the adventure, I'm sure the kids would take care of everything else
This would actually be my own choice - in fact, I've done just that,
with excellent results.
I've also used the pre-made Fudge Bunny characters on my web page
(http://www.io.com/~sos/fudchar.html) at WorldCon last August, and ran
it for half a dozen kids, ranging from pre-school to about 10 years
old. The game was very well received, to say the least! Almost too
well - Ann and I had munchkins in our games the rest of the weekend,
and unfortunately we had some other genres in which they weren't
appropriate players, alas ...
--
-Steffan O'Sullivan |
s...@vnet.net | "Seek Grailo, Even Better Than the True Grail"
Chapel Hill, NC |
www.io.com/~sos | -James Thurber sums up the 20th Century
AJB...@yahoo.com
"Epidiah" <Epidiah_...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> >What I'm looking for is games that are 'suitable for younger children' say
> >under 10 years old. These kids are easily intelligent enough to handle the
> >mechanics of games, and most of them are good roleplayers, but games that
> are
> >based around combat or horror can be disturbing to them (or, often,
> >disturbing to their parents). I'm thinking that games like 'Toon' or
> 'Bunnies
> >and Burrows' - games with potential for a lot of silliness and humour,
> might
> >be better for some of these kids and I am fishing for suggestions of games
> >like that - when this article goes out, it's quite likely I'll be asked for
> >suggestions of 'non-violent' games.
> >
> >Any ideas?
>
> I'd recommend FUDGE. It's easily modified to any genre appropriate to
> children and the system is freeform, allowing for less restrictions on
> character creation. Besides that, it's free.
>
> Although not conventionally a role-playing game, Once Upon a Time could also
> be useful.
>
An Over the Edge game, with the adult portions removed, can also be quite fun.
Epidiah
albu...@yahoo.com wrote in message
>I think FUDGE is far too complex for younger children, and it also isn't a
>particularly fun RPG, so it might be better to start them off with
something
>lighter and more flexible. My recommendation would probably be Toon.
>
>But your idea of starting them with a card game is probably even better.
OUAT
>isn't a bad idea, but very limited. Any card game with an emphasis on
>character would also do well, such as Middle Earth or Quest for the Grail.
>
>Of course, if you make the games non-violent that's going to substantially
>reduce their attractiveness to the actual kids you want to appeal to.
>
>Al>
I'm going to have to disagree with you on several accounts here:
First, I don't quite get where you are coming from when you say FUDGE is too
complex for younger children. The children, for the most part, are going to
start off as players I assume. I can not think of a more straight forward,
easy to comprehend game for players (especially new to role-playing players)
than FUDGE. The character sheet alone is enough to give you a feel for the
character, without any prior knowledge of the system. Each trait is measured
by one of seven adjectives, instead of numbers, allowing for a more natural
feel. Subjective character generation consists of a discussion with the GM
about your character, little more. Task resolution is a matter of rolling
four special dice (with plus and minus signs on them) adding the +'s,
subtracting the -'s and ignoring the blanks. Combat can be ran subjectively
so that no real mechanics, beyond the aforementioned die rolls, need to be
used.
Second, what do you mean by "particularly fun RPG"? As I explained before,
for a player it's very lightweight, and I know of no other game that is as
flexible. I understand that Toon has all the jokes built into the system,
and it's a game I've enjoyed on many occasions; but I can't say that it is
particularly more fun than FUDGE. That's kind of implying that FUDGE is
somehow laborious. I've made characters and ran an adventure with no
rule-book or dice on a two-hour car trip once. One of those characters was a
disease; another, an animated bouncing ball.
Third, Toon is centered on violence. While it is silly cartoon violence, it
is still violence nonetheless. I wouldn't recommend any particularly violent
games because the theme of violence often tends to overshadow other
excellent educating possibilities involved in role-playing, such as decision
making, teamwork, and creative responses to unusual problems.
Finally, I'm not familiar with Middle Earth or Quest for the Grail, but the
majority of card games out there tend to be really competitive. The reason I
recommended Once Upon a Time was because it's not quite as competitive and
the rules are unobtrusive. That, and it happens to be my current favorite
card game.
-Eppy
Ann Dupuis
> While FUDGE might be useful if I'm writing the game, I'm also looking for
> games they can run themselves and I'm not sure that fits the bill. How hard
> is it to set up FUDGE? I've really only ever glanced at it - while I like the
> concept, if I'm going to run a game based on a genre I've had to work up, I'm
> more likely to run it sans system, or with my own custom system.
While setting up a FUDGE game does require someone who knows what a
role-playing game is all about (and has some experience with other rpgs), it
would be relatively easy to come up with a version of FUDGE that kids could
then use quite easily on their own. Especially if you included rules with caps
to skill rolls and the like (so that no one could get beyond Superb results
without really special circumstances) and had all skill rolls default to Fair
if the GM didn't have a good idea as to how difficult something would be.
Hmmmm.... I feel the urge to design coming upon me.....
No, better not, too much else that needs to be done first. <sigh>
> I also am hoping to find some commercial games suggestions - something parents
> can actually buy (it increases the chance they will take up the ideas).
Well, FUDGE *is* also available commercially. And the "Gatecrasher" 2nd
Edition game is a complete role-playing game with a pre-customized version of
the FUDGE rules (with character traits and optional rules already picked out,
plus a magic system and a spaceship design system and monsters etc.). But it's
designed for the teenage-mostly-male-who-likes-to-blow-things-up crowd, not
the younger-than-10 crowd.
Best regards,
Ann Dupuis
Grey Ghost Press, Inc.
ghost...@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/ghostgames
Ann Dupuis
> I think FUDGE is far too complex for younger children, and it also isn't a
> particularly fun RPG, so it might be better to start them off with something
> lighter and more flexible. My recommendation would probably be Toon.
You're obviously not playing the same FUDGE I play. :-)
Toon is good, too, though.
woodelf
> Greetings all,
>
> I'm in the process of writing an article about RPGs and the potential
> advantages for intellectually gifted children in bein encouraged to play
> them.
>
> The thing is that while I'm a long time gamer, I'm not really up on anything
> released in the last few years (ie since about 1990, I don't have the time or
> the money) and my own interests have been limited to a few games - AD&D,
> Storyteller, Dragon Warriors, and Paranoia mostly.
>
> What I'm looking for is games that are 'suitable for younger children' say
> under 10 years old. These kids are easily intelligent enough to handle the
> mechanics of games, and most of them are good roleplayers, but games that are
> based around combat or horror can be disturbing to them (or, often,
> disturbing to their parents). I'm thinking that games like 'Toon' or 'Bunnies
> and Burrows' - games with potential for a lot of silliness and humour, might
> be better for some of these kids and I am fishing for suggestions of games
> like that - when this article goes out, it's quite likely I'll be asked for
> suggestions of 'non-violent' games.
>
> Any ideas?
several, since i've been ruminating over RPGs for a couple of 10yr-old
girls in my life (a 2nd cousin and the daughter of my prof). Castle
Falkenstein is one. i suspect that Bunnies & Burrows is a rather poor
choice, if you're trying to avoid disturbing kids. most people i've
talked to who read the book or saw the film when they were younger than
high school are *still* deeply disturbed by it, 10-15 years later.
personally, i don't understand it, since i saw the film when i was about
10 or 12, and found it fascinating, and no more terrible than an episode
of Nature and no more horrific than most human-centered dramas. that, and
good luck finding a copy of B&B these days--and do you really want to hand
over a $65+ staple-bound collector's item to a bunch of 5th-graders?
anyway, Toon is probably a good choice, considering both subject matter
and mechanics. either of those two (Castle Falkenstein and Toon) i would
have no qualms about recommending to quite young children, even if i were
just going to hand them the book and let them figure it out on their
own. also, i suspect that CF is one of the few RPGs that is likely to
appeal to both boys and girls of that age. (in fact, CF may be an Xmas
present for my cousins, who are now 12 &10 (?), and they're 2000 miles
away, so they'd be learning it on their own.) Tunnels and Trolls might
fall into that category also, from what i've heard, but i've never read it
myself.
if a more-experienced person were going to run the game for a bunch of
young children, the possibilities are noticably broadened, and almost
anything but Kult, CoC, SLA Industries, or OtE could be appropriate
(probalby a couple of other no-nos that i'm forgetting right now). i'd
particularly recommend D&D (find an old Rules Cyclopedia and a Basic Set;
start with the latter, and hadn them the former when they're ready), the
old Marvel Super Heroes or DC Heroes, Star Wars, the new Star Trek (TNG)
game, Maelstrom Storytelling. while the default might be questionable, i
think that appropriate games could be run within Deadlands (perhaps drop
the horror, and run it more as SF Western--think Briscoe County, Jr, or
The Wild, Wild West; see also Sixguns and Sorcery for CF), Traveller (i
prefer TNE, but many think that Mega- had the best systems/setting), Ars
Magica, Ghostbusters (though they're young enough you'll have to show them
the movie if you want them to get the jokes in teh rules), RuneQuest,
Prince Valiant (the only reason this one isn't on the "give it to them and
let them figure it out" list is the attitudes it conveys about women),
Witchcraft, Changeling, Earthdawn, Hercules & Xena, Space: 1889,
Bubblegum Crisis, or James bond 007, among others. another thing to go
look at would be a couple of the Amazing Engine games, such as Magitech or
For Faerie, Queen, and Country. Werewolf and Vampire could both work, if
you downplay the horror elements and play them more as
fantasy/wish-fulfillment, perhaps focusing on coming-of-age a bit
(especially for Werewolf). my prof's daughter (age 10 or 11, i think) is
apparently really into Vampire, so the girls at that age are probably
ready for some romance (PG-rated, of course) in their roleplaying. and,
of course, you can turn whatever they like to read/watch on TV into an
RPG, ifyou've the time.
you really should get in touch with David Millians (i don't know an email
off hand, but you can find him via RPGnet). he teaches 4th-5th graders
(IIRC), and uses roleplaying in the classroom and out. i believe he
mentioned once that Ars Magica worked quite well, but he had one problem:
2/3rds of the way through the semester, one of his students came up to him
and asked him if all Jews had hooves. he'd been so intent on promoting
the worldview that he hadn't made it clear what parts were fiction and
what were history (and the kid in question didn't know anybody in real
life who was Jewish).
which brings me to my other bit of advice: decide how much responsibility
you have in this. if you consider yourself wholly responsible for the
game(s) you introduce, at least to the degree that a teacher would be for
curriculum, then choose very carefully. if you give them CF, make sure
that they read the sections on the place of women in New Europa, and
perhaps use it as a jumping off point to discuss women in RL 19th C and/or
today. i'm leary of anything (A)D&D or WoD, as well as Bubblegum
Crisis--and, for that matter, most RPGs--for kids of that age, due to the
artwork. while things have gotten better, i'd be more comfortable running
most RPGs from a prepared distillation of the rules, not due to
complexity, but so that the kids never see the cheesecake--er, i mean
artwork--of the rulebooks. either that, or you could explicitly bring up
the artwork, and use it as the focus for a discussion of why the women are
depicted that way, especially in settings where it doesn't make sense (i
might forgive Cyberpunk 2020, as the men tend to be just as bad, and it's
part of the genre). either way, just be aware that the artwork of most
RPGs could have an unintended influence on the just-pre-pubescent girls in
your group.
considering that, and all of the above, i'd boil it down to 3 really good
choices: Toon for those who want silly, and Castle Falkenstein or Star
Wars for those who want serious.
> Shaun Hately
Shaun Owen Hately? the name rings a bell for some reason--any ideas why?
woodelf <*>
nbar...@students.wisc.edu
http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~woodelf/
I did not realize that similarity was required for the exercise of
compassion. --Delenn
dred...@alphalink.com.au
albu...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Of course, if you make the games non-violent that's going to substantially
> reduce their attractiveness to the actual kids you want to appeal to.
You don't know these kids - a large proportion of them are quite pacifistic.
Even more of them are ambivalent towards violence - they don't mind it in a
game or on TV, but they will be quite happy about it (and are likely to
complain if the violence is, in any way, gratuitous).
Actually the non-violence aspect is probably more important to the parents
than the kids.
Shaun Hately |'Don't knock mutant freaks. That's how
dred...@alphalink.com.au |evolution works. Something new appears
dred...@au.mensa.org |that might turn out to be just what the
ICQ: 6898200 |species needs.'
|- Stephanie Tolan 'Welcome to the Ark'
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/index.html
Bill McHale
: dred...@alphalink.com.au wrote:
: > While FUDGE might be useful if I'm writing the game, I'm also looking for
: > games they can run themselves and I'm not sure that fits the bill. How hard
: > is it to set up FUDGE? I've really only ever glanced at it - while I like the
: > concept, if I'm going to run a game based on a genre I've had to work up, I'm
: > more likely to run it sans system, or with my own custom system.
: While setting up a FUDGE game does require someone who knows what a
: role-playing game is all about (and has some experience with other rpgs), it
: would be relatively easy to come up with a version of FUDGE that kids could
: then use quite easily on their own. Especially if you included rules with caps
: to skill rolls and the like (so that no one could get beyond Superb results
: without really special circumstances) and had all skill rolls default to Fair
: if the GM didn't have a good idea as to how difficult something would be.
: Hmmmm.... I feel the urge to design coming upon me.....
: No, better not, too much else that needs to be done first. <sigh>
Actually I think it would be very cool if there were more commercial Fudge
based games on the market. Actually you could do generic source books...
I would love to see things like a Fudge Critters which would basically
allow the characters to play anything from Bunnies and Burrows, through
Redwall, Call of the Wild and other animals. I would also like to see a
swashbuckling game and one set in some other exotic locations.
--
Bill
***************************************************************************
Nostalgia is not what it use to be!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home page - http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~wmchal1
***************************************************************************
albu...@yahoo.com
dred...@alphalink.com.au wrote:
> In article <73ugss$dcn$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> albu...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Of course, if you make the games non-violent that's going to substantially
> > reduce their attractiveness to the actual kids you want to appeal to.
>
> You don't know these kids - a large proportion of them are quite pacifistic.
> Even more of them are ambivalent towards violence - they don't mind it in a
> game or on TV, but they will be quite happy about it (and are likely to
> complain if the violence is, in any way, gratuitous).
I recently actually met a kid like this. My first inclination was to wonder
if there was something wrong with him mentally. My second was to wonder how
he got these unnatural pacifistic urges. I was suspicious that his parents
might have done something creepy to him. I don't remember many kids like
this when I was growing up, and most of the kids I meet these days seem not
to have this problem. I still think that kids who don't like play-violence
(even girls) are a small minority.
al
j s w e e n e y i g f o o t . c o m
of my favorite RPGs, especially as the bunnies end up having to BUILD
things in order to survive. My fav. campaign had bunnies taking over a
tree-house and building all sorts of wooden contraptions to protect it
from those devilish squirrels. There is a lot more prolems solving
when your character has all the bruteforce of a... well... a bunny.
Cheers,
JS
On 30 Nov 1998 11:58:55 -0500, s...@katie.vnet.net (Steffan O'Sullivan)
wrote: