Imperium Games Status (Long)
David Joseph Smart
The following is an email posted to the Traveller Mailing List by the
person who is the liaison between IG and the maillist. Just an FYI...
The News from IG October 11, 1996
The folks at IG have been on vacation for a couple of weeks, as you may
already know. But they'll be back in the harness next week, and their
web
site will return to its usual weekly update schedule.
In addition, IG is undergoing some changes. They're off-loading the
day-to-day business processes onto their parent organization, which will
allow them to focus their energies entirely upon creating Traveller
gaming products. This renewed focus includes, among other things, my
role as IG's representative to the TML. It is hoped that I will be
able to provide timely information to TML participants, while freeing
the folks at IG from spending so much time talking on the phone and
writing email to the hundreds of people who call and/or write every
week. They don't want their fans to be left out in the cold, but they
also don't want to have to stop making products! :)
The parent organization has given IG a new focus on producing the
highest quality product at a competitive price. Expect to see more
color plates, more custom artwork (no more generic stuff), top-quality
printing, far fewer errors, and all of the other markings of premium
gaming products. At the same time, the parent organization wants
Traveller to sell extremely well. Therefore, the prices will be held
down even as the costs of production rise.
The idea is to get Traveller into the hands of as many people as
possible by making it the best RPG available anywhere, without pricing
themselves out of the market. This is good news for us. It means that
the
investors are in for the long haul. They're willing to sacrifice
short-term
profits for long-term viability. Needless to say, that's a pretty
unusual
attitude in today's business environment.
These changes are beginning now, but they will continue to be
implemented
in stages over the next two or three months. By the end of December,
everything should be in place. From that time (at the latest),
everything
will be top-quality and on-time, every time.
If you have any questions, please let me know.
-Joe
Joseph M. Saul
Who, exactly, is "the parent organization?"
Joe Saul
jms...@umich.edu
Anthony Ragan
David Joseph Smart <dsm...@flash.net> screamed into the Void:
>The following is an email posted to the Traveller Mailing List by the
>person who is the liaison between IG and the maillist. Just an FYI...
Thanks for forwarding this, but I still wonder why they can't
be bothered to directly communicate with their customers who don't
subscribe to TML.
>The folks at IG have been on vacation for a couple of weeks, as you may
>already know. But they'll be back in the harness next week, and their
>web site will return to its usual weekly update schedule.
Picky point: that schedule has hardly been weekly. More
importantly -- the entire staff went on vacation for two weeks?
Nobody's minding the store or answering the phones? Please tell me I
read that wrong.
>In addition, IG is undergoing some changes.
The rest of that message read like a polite way of saying that
the parent company (which is?) was upset at how the initial release
was handled (note the promise for "far fewer errors") and has taken
day-to-day operations out of IG's hands.
>If you have any questions, please let me know.
Just one: could Imperium Games please take the time to keep
its non-TML customers updated? Directly, without the need for someone
to forward messages from TML?
*****
--Anthony Ragan
Snotling in Chief, Staadtholder van Marienburg
Iris...@worldnet.att.net (primary) & Iris...@aol.com (secondary)
The Warhammer FRP FAQ is at:
ftp://ftp.pvv.unit/no/pub/warhammer/FAQ3.2
Composed with Agent 99!
Jay
In article <325F16...@flash.net>, dsm...@flash.net says...
>
>The following is an email posted to the Traveller Mailing List by the
>person who is the liaison between IG and the maillist. Just an FYI...
>
>
>
>
>already know. But they'll be back in the harness next week, and their
>web
>site will return to its usual weekly update schedule.
Since when has the web site been updated weekly?
>
>In addition, IG is undergoing some changes. They're off-loading the
>day-to-day business processes onto their parent organization, which will
>allow them to focus their energies entirely upon creating Traveller
>gaming products. This renewed focus includes, among other things, my
>role as IG's representative to the TML. It is hoped that I will be
>able to provide timely information to TML participants, while freeing
>the folks at IG from spending so much time talking on the phone and
>writing email to the hundreds of people who call and/or write every
>week. They don't want their fans to be left out in the cold, but they
>also don't want to have to stop making products! :)
Hmm... since they don't answer any e-mail I dount that they will be saving any
extra time there.. Does this mean that Marc Miller will be handling the
business side of things now?
>
>The parent organization has given IG a new focus on producing the
>highest quality product at a competitive price. Expect to see more
>color plates, more custom artwork (no more generic stuff), top-quality
>printing, far fewer errors, and all of the other markings of premium
>gaming products. At the same time, the parent organization wants
>Traveller to sell extremely well. Therefore, the prices will be held
>down even as the costs of production rise.
I could care less about color plates as long as the editing process isn't
skipped over.
>
>The idea is to get Traveller into the hands of as many people as
>possible by making it the best RPG available anywhere, without pricing
>themselves out of the market. This is good news for us. It means that
>the
>investors are in for the long haul. They're willing to sacrifice
>short-term
>profits for long-term viability. Needless to say, that's a pretty
>unusual
>attitude in today's business environment.
>
Yes, but at teh same time let's only make sure that the people on the TML get
this information (unless some nice person not affiliated with IG wants to post
it elsewhere),
>These changes are beginning now, but they will continue to be
>implemented
>in stages over the next two or three months. By the end of December,
>everything should be in place. From that time (at the latest),
>everything
>will be top-quality and on-time, every time.
>
What this really means is "And this will be our excuse between now and the
middle of next year as to why all of the products are really late."
Douglas E. Berry
In article <53o57j$p...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Joseph M. Saul <jms...@us.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>Who, exactly, is "the parent organization?"
The Vilani Empire.
+----------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dbe...@hooked.net |
| Professional Driver - Traveller Guru |
| http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm |
|**********************************************|
| "Well, I'm not Evil, I'm just good looking." |
| -Alice Cooper |
+----------------------------------------------+
Karen J. Cravens
In article <53o57j$p...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
Joseph M. Saul <jms...@us.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>Who, exactly, is "the parent organization?"
TSR, of course.
<GDR>
Karen
--...................................................................
Americans detest all lies except spoken in public or printed lies.
-- Edgar Watson Howe
David Crowe
Discordia?
I find this lack of information very disturbing...
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe No generalization is true
-not even this one.
Mike Bigskank
You know, i wasnt gonna post to this thread and be a smart ass, but
what the hell....
>>These changes are beginning now, but they will continue to be
>>implemented
>>in stages over the next two or three months. By the end of December,
>>everything should be in place. From that time (at the latest),
>>everything
>>will be top-quality and on-time, every time.
>>
>What this really means is "And this will be our excuse between now and the
>middle of next year as to why all of the products are really late."
I had to add to this. Okay, If your a beginning company who has
already had a rocky start. Your first release goes fairly well other
than many editing errors. The second release(HB) goes horrible,
resulting with the president of IG insulting many old time and new
traveller fans alike. Now, let me add this. The president of IG in
an earlier post stated that the Starships book was going to be on
time, referring to the fact that he had a week left. This was in the
last week of September(September being the due date for Starships).
Now, if you are this company, are you going to say," Screw deadlines
and fans, lets take a vacation" or are you going to say," Hey, lets
get to work, get the product out, and then we will take a well
deserved break" ? I know this is not exactly how the decision process
went, but c'mon now! I really get the feeling they dont care.
Mike
ONLY THE INSANE HAVE STRENGTH ENOUGH TO PROSPER,
ONLY THOSE THAT PROSPER TRULY JUDGE WHAT IS SANE
Terry Austin
dbe...@hooked.net (Douglas E. Berry) wrote:
>In article <53o57j$p...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
> Joseph M. Saul <jms...@us.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>>Who, exactly, is "the parent organization?"
>The Vilani Empire.
Wouldn't they be the *grand*parent organization?
---------------------------------
Terry Austin, Companion of Loyal Order of Chivalry & Sorcery
Hyperbooks Online Bookstore
New Items: Chivalry & Sorcery, 3rd edition and HyperText Slag!
New Address:
http://www.hyperbooks.com/
---------------------------------
Jeremy Reaban
I dunno, I have a friend that publishs a magazine by herself (okay, maybe
not the same as a game supplement, since she only has a circulation of a
couple thosand, but the same principle), and while she has had problems
with her printer, she's managed to get out her magazine on time.
What I suggest, is if the printer keeps fouling up, why doesn't Imperium
Games just change printers? And does the mix up at the printers explain the
shoddiness of the editing in the softcover, or the lack of any follow up
products (i.e, Starships, JTAS)?
In any event, I do think it's tacky (at least), to go on vacation when
some people haven't even received their hard covers yet , which they
already paid for. If they can afford to go on vacation (to Germany
apparently), why can't they afford to at least drop a postcard to everyone
that had ordered it, saying it's on the way soon?
Jeremy
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
> So you suggest they all rush down to the printing plant and get the
> presses to run faster through sheer force of will, or what? If Imperium
> was confident that the book would be out on schedule a week before it
> was due to ship, and it's not out yet, that indicates exactly one thing:
> a printing foul-up. (Either that or Whit was lying through his gnashers,
> and although I don't know him I do know that he's been around this
> industry long enough to know better than that.)
>
> Peeve: people who don't know how books are produced preaching to those
> who do.
>
> --
James Wallis
In article <53p84g$l...@clark.zippo.com>, Mike Bigskank
<bigs...@ns1.tlk.net> writes
>
>Now, if you are this company, are you going to say," Screw deadlines
>and fans, lets take a vacation" or are you going to say," Hey, lets
>get to work, get the product out, and then we will take a well
>deserved break" ? I know this is not exactly how the decision process
>went, but c'mon now! I really get the feeling they dont care.
So you suggest they all rush down to the printing plant and get the
presses to run faster through sheer force of will, or what? If Imperium
was confident that the book would be out on schedule a week before it
was due to ship, and it's not out yet, that indicates exactly one thing:
a printing foul-up. (Either that or Whit was lying through his gnashers,
and although I don't know him I do know that he's been around this
industry long enough to know better than that.)
Peeve: people who don't know how books are produced preaching to those
who do.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
(Warhammer is a trademark of Games Workshop Ltd, and is used with permission)
Neither Hogshead Publishing nor anyone employed by it will
ever buy anything from any spammed email or Usenet message
Larry D.Hols
>
> I don't think he's been around Usenet long enough to know better
> than that, though.
>
> Everybody *always* tries to blame the printers.
>
Hallo,
That's because printing shops are notorius for getting behind on jobs.
An error in a job, or a client changing a job in progress, or machine
breakdowns, or rush orders coming in, all contribute to delays in
processing orders.
I worked at a printer's once. I know what goes on.
Larry
Karen J. Cravens
In article <T7D53SA4...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>,
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <53p84g$l...@clark.zippo.com>, Mike Bigskank
><bigs...@ns1.tlk.net> writes
>>
>>Now, if you are this company, are you going to say," Screw deadlines
>>and fans, lets take a vacation" or are you going to say," Hey, lets
>>get to work, get the product out, and then we will take a well
>>deserved break" ? I know this is not exactly how the decision process
>>went, but c'mon now! I really get the feeling they dont care.
>
>So you suggest they all rush down to the printing plant and get the
>presses to run faster through sheer force of will, or what? If Imperium
>was confident that the book would be out on schedule a week before it
>was due to ship, and it's not out yet, that indicates exactly one thing:
>a printing foul-up. (Either that or Whit was lying through his gnashers,
>and although I don't know him I do know that he's been around this
I don't think he's been around Usenet long enough to know better
than that, though.
Everybody *always* tries to blame the printers.
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Keeper of the Phoenyx List of Current RPG Releases
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/rpglist.html
WinningerR
>>> I dunno, I have a friend that publishs a magazine by herself
(okay, maybe
not the same as a game supplement, since she only has a circulation of a
couple thosand, but the same principle)<<<
Sounds more like a game supplement than you realize.
Mike Bigskank
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>So you suggest they all rush down to the printing plant and get the
>presses to run faster through sheer force of will, or what? If Imperium
>was confident that the book would be out on schedule a week before it
>was due to ship, and it's not out yet, that indicates exactly one thing:
>a printing foul-up. (Either that or Whit was lying through his gnashers,
>and although I don't know him I do know that he's been around this
>industry long enough to know better than that.)
You obviously just felt like posting crap without reading my post or
many others. Whitman said nothing about the book being at the
printers. He just stated that IG had a week left in the last week of
September. Since IG was SO quick to fill us in when the HB's were at
the printers, and all the problems they had with them(which, I
honestly believe), why dont they state the same for this starships
book? I personally am not going to buy it, seeing that T4 is nothing
more than a mediocre game. Hell, I prefer my little black Traveller
books just for the sake of nostalgia. What I was attempting to point
out that you so easily ignored is that they Probably dont even have
them at the printers, and once again, there is no communication...only
LIES.
>Peeve: people who don't know how books are produced preaching to those
>who do.
Nice statement. Next time, write it to a post that applies.
David Crowe
Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
: dbe...@hooked.net (Douglas E. Berry) wrote:
: >In article <53o57j$p...@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
: > Joseph M. Saul <jms...@us.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
: >>Who, exactly, is "the parent organization?"
: >The Vilani Empire.
: Wouldn't they be the *grand*parent organization?
No, you are thinking of the Droyne... :)
TSR SteveM
Gah!
In my previous post, I said "fans." I screwed up because I was looking at
a letter that got put in front of me as I was typing. I meant to say
"customers," but w/o quotation marks.
[grumblegrumblegrumble]
Steve Miller TSRS...@aol.com
DRAGONLANCE & RAVENLOFT Design Teams
MINE, adj. Belonging to me if I can seize and hold it.
--Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
TSR SteveM
Seems to me many of the responses to this thread should illustrate why
Imperium Games (and many other companies) don't bother informing "fans"
over the Usenet.
No one needs this kind of "commentary."
James Wallis
In article <elUYy0C/k4qS...@southwind.net>, "Karen J. Cravens"
<pho...@southwind.net> writes
>
>Everybody *always* tries to blame the printers.
Yeah, well, usually it's their fault. I may be embittered here, but when
Printer A says "We sent all the film" and Printer B then takes six weeks
to tell me that only half of it arrived ... that's the printers' fault.
(And no, the package didn't burst in transit). I can't work out which
one of them screwed up, so I'm blaming both of them.
Ten years ago everybody was bitching about typesetters. Then DTP came
in, and now, thank the powers that be, there are very few typesetters
left. Unfortunately many of them get into new tech and opened repro
houses, so now we blame repro houses (who are also scum, he says through
gritted teeth, having spent much of today looking at chromalins for film
that should have been corrected last week so it could go to print today,
but wasn't and didn't) and printers. It's not because they're
convenient, it's because they screw up. Sometimes majorly.
There was the incident last year when one of Hogshead's books shipped
two weeks late, and very nearly missed Gen Con, because it had been
sitting in the printers' shipping bay for ten days, waiting for someone
to remember to ship it to our warehouse five miles away.
James Wallis
In article <53sa2s$4...@clark.zippo.com>, Mike Bigskank
<bigs...@ns1.tlk.net> writes
>James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>So you suggest they all rush down to the printing plant and get the
>>presses to run faster through sheer force of will, or what? If Imperium
>>was confident that the book would be out on schedule a week before it
>>was due to ship, and it's not out yet, that indicates exactly one thing:
>>a printing foul-up. (Either that or Whit was lying through his gnashers,
>>and although I don't know him I do know that he's been around this
>>industry long enough to know better than that.)
>
>You obviously just felt like posting crap without reading my post or
>many others.
Hold on a minute there. I did read your post; I read Ken's original one
too; and I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest.
The difference between us is that I've had first-hand experience of
producing RPG supplements and dealing with book printers.
>Whitman said nothing about the book being at the
>printers. He just stated that IG had a week left in the last week of
>September.
I agree, that's what he said. You may not know this, but on average it
takes quite a lot longer than a week for a printer to turn around a job
like a RPG supplement: Hogshead's printer (a company also used by a
number of other RPG publishers) averages about four weeks to print and
bind a typical 128-page book. It's been as short as three; it's been as
much as six during busy seasons. That's pretty average. The only way
you're going to get a printer to turn around a book in a week is by
paying them well over the going rate for the job. With the RPG
industry's tight profit margins, that isn't a realistic option.
Therefore, when Ken Whitman posted ten days or so from the end of
September that he was confident the book would be out by the end of that
month, he was implying heavily that it was already at the printer. He
didn't say it directly, but to anyone who knows anything about book
production, that's what he meant.
(The only other possibility is that the book wasn't at the printer, in
which case Ken knew that there was no way it could possibly come out in
September, and he was therefore either being irrational or lying when he
said it would be published on time. But ask yourself why he would lie
about something like that. Where's the benefit to him or Imperium from
claiming that a book will be out on time when he knows it won't? It
makes no sense, which is why I'll give Ken the benefit of the doubt on
it. You may like to perceive Imperium Games as being The Enemy, but
while there's no question that they've screwed up on a couple of things
and missed a couple of shipping dates, that doesn't mean they're guilty
of every crime against humanity and RPG fans with which you'd like to
tar them.)
>Since IG was SO quick to fill us in when the HB's were at
>the printers, and all the problems they had with them(which, I
>honestly believe), why dont they state the same for this starships
>book?
Because they're in Germany? Ah, no, I shouldn't be flippant, lest I draw
another blast of your scorching breath. Perhaps because in the RPG
industry, a two-week delay to a book's release is considered good time-
keeping? I'm not saying that's a good thing, but this is a very small
industry, with a lot of very small companies, and delays are inevitable.
If you haven't noticed that before, I'm genuinely surprised.
(Germany, incidentally, is where Spiel 96, the largest games convention
and trade show in the world, is being held next weekend. For a new
company with a hot product, it makes a lot of sense to be there. Again,
I'm assuming that's where Imperium has gone; I don't know for sure. But
to go to Germany at this time of year and not go to Essen would be
supreme idiocy, so again I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)
>What I was attempting to point
>out that you so easily ignored is that they Probably dont even have
>them at the printers, and once again, there is no communication...only
>LIES.
Actually your last message -- the one I responded to -- said nothing
about lies at all (the phrase you used was "I really get the feeling
they dont care"; your punctuation) which rather invalidates your flame.
Back at the start of this message, I believe someone said something
about posting crap without reading the messages they was following-up.
Hmm.
>>Peeve: people who don't know how books are produced preaching to those
>>who do.
>
>Nice statement. Next time, write it to a post that applies.
Clearly I should have known better than to try to correct the
misapprehensions of someone who posts under a username like "Bigskank".
Karen J. Cravens
In article <qufhyNAK...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>,
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <elUYy0C/k4qS...@southwind.net>, "Karen J. Cravens"
><pho...@southwind.net> writes
>>
>>Everybody *always* tries to blame the printers.
>
>Yeah, well, usually it's their fault. I may be embittered here, but when
Heh. Yes, you're embittered.
Y'know, somewhere in soc.printing.whines, there's a bunch of
pressmen sitting around saying the exact sorts of things about
the things *customers* do.
Everyone always brings in their projects at the last minute. And
calls in changes after that. And wants it done right now,
because doggonit, you told them three weeks ago (when you had no
business) that it would take about three days if they brought it
in now, but now they don't believe you when you tell them you're
swamped and it will take two weeks. (Printers could teach
statisticians a few things about clumping and other random
phenomena.)
And *then* you get people who have no clue about the technology
involved, which is okay, but they're convinced it can be done and
you're just trying to jack the price up... really, they *know*
you could print that little bitty logo in white in the middle of
blue paper, but noooo, you just want to gouge them on ink
prices...
I studied under a printer of the old school (he knew how to cast
lead type AND how to operate a computerized typesetter), who
asserted that all printers had either an ulcer or an alcohol
problem... he had the former.
Okay, you want to start on the shipping business now? I work for
an overnight cargo airline nowadays... :}
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
A little common sense, goodwill, and a tiny dose of unselfishness
could make this goodly earth into an earthly paradise.
-- Richard Aldington
Jose Garcia
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <elUYy0C/k4qS...@southwind.net>, "Karen J. Cravens"
><pho...@southwind.net> writes
>>
>>Everybody *always* tries to blame the printers.
>
>Yeah, well, usually it's their fault. I may be embittered here, but when
>to tell me that only half of it arrived ... that's the printers' fault.
>(And no, the package didn't burst in transit). I can't work out which
>one of them screwed up, so I'm blaming both of them.
job goes to the lowest bidder (although expensive printing often doesn't
mean you'll get any better quality).
There's an entire class of professionals whose job it is to see to
it that printers don't screw up. They're called print buyers (not to be
confused with print brokers, to which this example doesn't apply) and
while they're primary task is to get the lowest price possible they
spend the vast majority of their time seeing to it that the printer
doesn't screw up and that if he does screw up that the publisher has a
leg to stand on if a dispute arises. That's saying something about the
realities of printing.
Mike Bigskank
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Hold on a minute there. I did read your post; I read Ken's original one
>too; and I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest.
>The difference between us is that I've had first-hand experience of
>producing RPG supplements and dealing with book printers.
First of all, I donot want to make this into a usenet flame, which, I
should not of posted that "crap" message so quickly, I apologize for
that. But, please bear in mind, you are working on the assumption
that I donot have any experience with printers and the problems they
incur. I never said anything of such ideal, and yet you are working
from that basis. I in fact have had experience with printers. Not in
the lines of books, I will agree. I used to manage a Anheuser Busch
Distributorship, and part of being the Office Manager there was
ordering, creating, and waiting for all needed pre-printed forms from
various companies that I would employ. You would probably surprised
at the amount of paperwork that goes through a CA distributor. So
yes, I have dealt with printers.
>Therefore, when Ken Whitman posted ten days or so from the end of
>September that he was confident the book would be out by the end of that
>month, he was implying heavily that it was already at the printer. He
>didn't say it directly, but to anyone who knows anything about book
>production, that's what he meant.
I will also humbly admit that I didnot think of this option. BUT, I
donot believe that Ken was implying heavily that the book was already
at the printer. That is why I compared it to how quickly they were to
telling all of us that the HB's were at the printers. They didnt even
bother with that.
>(The only other possibility is that the book wasn't at the printer, in
>which case Ken knew that there was no way it could possibly come out in
>September, and he was therefore either being irrational or lying when he
>said it would be published on time. But ask yourself why he would lie
>about something like that. Where's the benefit to him or Imperium from
>claiming that a book will be out on time when he knows it won't?
Hasnt stopped him or IG yet.
>makes no sense, which is why I'll give Ken the benefit of the doubt on it.
No, you see I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Perhaps If they had put out a game that was worth the wait, or perhaps
if I and many other fans had been properly updated, Or just perhaps if
Ken Whitman instead of ranting on usenet had offered a valid apology
to fans, then, I would of been able to give the benefit of the doubt.
>You may like to perceive Imperium Games as being The Enemy, but
>while there's no question that they've screwed up on a couple of things
>and missed a couple of shipping dates, that doesn't mean they're guilty
>of every crime against humanity and RPG fans with which you'd like to
>tar them.)
Im sorry, I donot remember posting that IG was responsible for World
Hunger, The soaring Crime rate, Or rampant disease that afflicts this
earth. That post would have been very obvious since it would have to
be even longer than this one ;-) I only perceive IG as a new company
that is made up of RPG company veterans that has made some serious
mistakes, mistakes that I have the right to air on usenet, on the
internet, or in public if I do so like to. Just the same rights you
have exhibited by posting. Hmm..side thought, are those "inalienable
rights"?
>Because they're in Germany? Ah, no, I shouldn't be flippant, lest I draw
>another blast of your scorching breath. Perhaps because in the RPG
>industry, a two-week delay to a book's release is considered good time-
>keeping? I'm not saying that's a good thing, but this is a very small
>industry, with a lot of very small companies, and delays are inevitable.
What about before Germany? What about before this vacation? So what
your saying is that they could not have posted an update to their web
page before they left for their vacation, while paying customers are
still awaiting a product that they ordered well over a month ago. The
update about their vacation was on September 30th. There was plenty
of opportunity once again to at least admit, and inform the public
that the starships book was going to be late. If they had done that,
they might get some respect.
>(Germany, incidentally, is where Spiel 96, the largest games convention
>and trade show in the world, is being held next weekend. For a new
>company with a hot product, it makes a lot of sense to be there. Again,
>I'm assuming that's where Imperium has gone; I don't know for sure. But
>to go to Germany at this time of year and not go to Essen would be
>supreme idiocy, so again I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)
Funny thing that. I guess you should stop giving them the benefit of
the doubt. The update states:Sept 30,1996
Imperium Games is now preparing to go to the ESSEN Game Fair in
Frankfurt, Germany (the largest game fair in the world).
As this is the case, when telephoning please feel free to leave your
messages, and we will do our best to call you back.
>Actually your last message -- the one I responded to -- said nothing
>about lies at all (the phrase you used was "I really get the feeling
>they dont care"; your punctuation) which rather invalidates your flame.
>Back at the start of this message, I believe someone said something
>about posting crap without reading the messages they was following-up.
>Hmm.
Hmmm...yes. I was being nice before, but once again IG has proven
their ability to lie to the public. I still believe it is my right if
I want to add further comments, or should I clear them with you
first?(Blatant Flippant Comment) ;-P
>>>Peeve: people who don't know how books are produced preaching to those
>>>who do.
>>
>>Nice statement. Next time, write it to a post that applies.
>Clearly I should have known better than to try to correct the
>misapprehensions of someone who posts under a username like "Bigskank".
Well, lets see here. Now the maturity of the post has been
manifested. Gee, does this go back to kindergarted and making fun of
the other kids with funny names?
>--
>James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
>Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
>(Warhammer is a trademark of Games Workshop Ltd, and is used with permission)
Another company that I will have nothing to do with.
NUELOW
Mike Bigskank wrote:
> No, you see I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
> Perhaps If they had put out a game that was worth the wait, or
> perhaps if I and many other fans had been properly updated
All of this "keeping the fans updated" and "why the mailing list and not
Usenet" yada-yada-yada has got me wondering...
What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and die?
Delays in this business is nothing out of the ordinary, even for prepaid
materials I'm told. Did companies with late product send postcards to
everyone on their mailing list, wasting money on that instead of paying
the printer or spending time resolving whatever other reason their might
be for the hold-ups? I really don't know, because I've always been
pleasantly surprised every time I walk into a game store and see some new
release for my favourite game... never did pay attention to release
schedules and such.
And if gamers didn't wait by the mailboxes, or shrivel up and die when
something didn't come out on time, are all of us 'net-users just a bunch
of pampered cry-babies? I fully understand why people who pre-paid for HBs
might be a bit ansy... but the venom I've been seeing over the lack of
"keeping fans informed" seems somewhat silly to me.
> Or just perhaps if Ken Whitman instead of ranting on usenet had
> offered a valid apology to fans, then, I would of been able to give
> the benefit of the doubt.
Poor Stuart Dollar... gonna hafta lick a lotta boots if this mindset is a
typical one. (And it does seem to be, at least among the vocal
contingent.)
[snip]
> I only perceive IG as a new company that is made up of RPG company
> veterans that has made some serious mistakes, mistakes that I have
> the right to air on usenet, on the internet, or in public if I do so
> like to. Just the same rights you have exhibited by posting.
> Hmm..side thought, are those "inalienable rights"?
Whether it's an "inalienable right" kinda depends on where you are the
world. (Unless the New World Order has adopted the U.S. Constitution.)
> What about before Germany? What about before this vacation?
Yup. There was certainly a problem coddling the 'net beyond the TRAVELLER
mailing list. That's been said in about three dozen different ways. Don't
you think it's time to move, to let the grudge go? (And now Stuart's
here... or are you going to hold him accountable for Public Relations
Flubs of the past?)
> So what your saying is that they could not have posted an update to
> their web page before they left for their vacation, while paying
> customers are still awaiting a product that they ordered well over a
> month ago.
What did companies do before web sites? (Actually, where IG really flubbed
was when they announced their release schedule, period. IMO. I'd never
have done that if I were a start-up company. "Winter '96" woulda been as
daring as I would've gotten on those first releases.)
[snip]
> >-- >James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing
> > (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
> > Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY
> > ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
> > (Warhammer is a trademark of
> > Games Workshop Ltd, and is used with permission)
>
> Another company that I will have nothing to do with.
There's a question that's been on my mind... why keep dwelling on IG,
et.al. if you don't want anything to do with them and won't be buying any
of their releases? It's the same thing that mystifies me about 'netters
who say, "I've not bought a T$R book in a decade [or Game$ Work$hop, for
you British types :)], and they all suck, and I hate 'em, and I'm gonna
keep railing even if I'm not really adding anything that hasn't been said
over and over!" Sure, it's an "inalienable right" in some parts of the
world, but aren't there more productive ways to spend one's time?
Is it Usenet that causes this to happen, a mentaility among us gamers, or
just the sign of people who carry alot of pent up frustrations with them?
--
Steve "The One To Blame" Miller
NUELOW Design Guy
Mike Bigskank
nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and die?
You know, that is an excellent point. The only reason I was
reiterating those facts is just to explain my position and why I have
come to feel the way I have to someone just in case they had not
followed in depth all the postings. But, your right! What did we do.
I also loved to be surprised when I walked into a game store, and
LOOK! I didnt even know they were making that! :-) What is different
though is this: If you take the time to put up a web page to "keep
fans updated" and to provide a link to the internet so that all the
"netters" can look at your page and product, you are also condemning
yourself to keeping it updated IMHO.
>Poor Stuart Dollar... gonna hafta lick a lotta boots if this mindset is a
>typical one. (And it does seem to be, at least among the vocal
>contingent.)
Actually, I hold nothing against Stuart Dollar. In fact, I would
think less of him if he were to start licking boots. He shouldnt have
to clean up a mess that Ken made :-)
>>
>> Another company that I will have nothing to do with.
I really shouldnt have put this there. I felt bad about it. I was
just on a roll :-) The reason I wont have anything to do with that
company is not in anything connected to James Wallis(I think thats his
name )
Oh well...rant rant rant....hehehe
James Wallis
In article <53uosg$3...@clark.zippo.com>, Mike Bigskank
<bigs...@ns1.tlk.net> writes
>James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Hold on a minute there. I did read your post; I read Ken's original one
>>too; and I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest.
>>The difference between us is that I've had first-hand experience of
>>producing RPG supplements and dealing with book printers.
>
>First of all, I donot want to make this into a usenet flame, which, I
>should not of posted that "crap" message so quickly, I apologize for
>that.
Okay, heat off.
>But, please bear in mind, you are working on the assumption
>that I donot have any experience with printers and the problems they
>incur. I never said anything of such ideal, and yet you are working
>from that basis. I in fact have had experience with printers. Not in
>the lines of books, I will agree. I used to manage a Anheuser Busch
>Distributorship, and part of being the Office Manager there was
>ordering, creating, and waiting for all needed pre-printed forms from
>various companies that I would employ. You would probably surprised
>at the amount of paperwork that goes through a CA distributor. So
>yes, I have dealt with printers.
But not book printers, evidently. Printing books honestly takes a lot
more time than printing forms or stationery. Our last shipment of books
from the printer weighed just over four-and-a-half tonnes... and that
was a reprint, half the original print run. That took four weeks to turn
around, from pre-existing printing plates. Meanwhile, my stationery is
done by a printer who delivers it two days after I give him the job.
It's not the same thing at all.
>>Therefore, when Ken Whitman posted ten days or so from the end of
>>September that he was confident the book would be out by the end of that
>>month, he was implying heavily that it was already at the printer. He
>>didn't say it directly, but to anyone who knows anything about book
>>production, that's what he meant.
>
>I will also humbly admit that I didnot think of this option. BUT, I
>donot believe that Ken was implying heavily that the book was already
>at the printer. That is why I compared it to how quickly they were to
>telling all of us that the HB's were at the printers. They didnt even
>bother with that.
>
>>(The only other possibility is that the book wasn't at the printer, in
>>which case Ken knew that there was no way it could possibly come out in
>>September, and he was therefore either being irrational or lying when he
>>said it would be published on time. But ask yourself why he would lie
>>about something like that. Where's the benefit to him or Imperium from
>>claiming that a book will be out on time when he knows it won't?
I leave all this, and the fact that Imperium has announced that the book
will now be a November release, as an academic exercise for the reader.
>Hmmm...yes. I was being nice before, but once again IG has proven
>their ability to lie to the public.
I think the crux of the matter is whether Imperium's representatives
were lying intentionally in an active effort to deceive the game's fans
and proto-fans; or whether they actively believed what they were saying.
Being an industry professional talking about other industry
professionals, I'm obliged -- once again -- to give them the benefit of
the doubt here. You may disagree. That's fine; you're not an industry
professional. Bitch all you like.
>I still believe it is my right if
>I want to add further comments, or should I clear them with you
>first?(Blatant Flippant Comment) ;-P
I could sub-edit them for you. Reasonable rates.
>>Clearly I should have known better than to try to correct the
>>misapprehensions of someone who posts under a username like "Bigskank".
>
>Well, lets see here. Now the maturity of the post has been
>manifested. Gee, does this go back to kindergarted and making fun of
>the other kids with funny names?
If "Bigskank" is your real name, then I apologize unreservedly.
Unfortunately around here "skank" is slang for "penis" (I have no idea
quite how that derived from its original meaning of -- and I quote the
Pen Dictionary of American Slang -- "a malodorous prostitute"). R.g.f.m
has its fair share of pseudonymous contributors, and I assumed you were
one of them. If it's your real name then, as I said, I'm very sorry.
--
James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
(Warhammer is a trademark of Games Workshop Ltd, and is used with permission)
Neither Hogshead Publishing nor anyone employed by it will
Matthew R Blackwell
In <540ub0$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) writes:
>Mike Bigskank wrote:
>
>> No, you see I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
>> Perhaps If they had put out a game that was worth the wait, or
>
>All of this "keeping the fans updated" and "why the mailing list and
not
>Usenet" yada-yada-yada has got me wondering...
>
die?
prepaid
>materials I'm told. Did companies with late product send postcards to
>everyone on their mailing list, wasting money on that instead of
paying
>the printer or spending time resolving whatever other reason their
might
>be for the hold-ups? I really don't know, because I've always been
>pleasantly surprised every time I walk into a game store and see some
new
>release for my favourite game... never did pay attention to release
>schedules and such.
>
>And if gamers didn't wait by the mailboxes, or shrivel up and die when
>something didn't come out on time, are all of us 'net-users just a
bunch
>of pampered cry-babies? I fully understand why people who pre-paid for
HBs
>might be a bit ansy... but the venom I've been seeing over the lack of
>"keeping fans informed" seems somewhat silly to me.
Steve, a lot of gamers get their release info from the Dragon,
although they usually don't see a product announcement, they see an ad.
When I worked at a game store, I can't relate how many gamers would
wander in and expect to see a product to be out because they saw it in
the Dragon. Palladium fans were especially annoying, because, at the
time, the lead time between the ads and the product was three-four
months, during which ,every week, I'd hear "Is Rifts (whatever) out
yet?" (Although it was nice to hear a change from the "do you have any
Magic?" questions.) So, even without the net, gamers tend to know
release schedules, IMHO.
Terry Austin
nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>Is it Usenet that causes this to happen, a mentaility among us gamers, or
>just the sign of people who carry alot of pent up frustrations with them?
It's the half doing things. They keep the mailing list updated, but
not their web site. If they ignored the 'Net completely, nobody would
care. But to keep harping for everyone to join the mailing list, and
sort through who knows how many messages a day (even in digest form,
you still have to look at all of them) just to find the one or two a
week that pertain to release dates or errata, and not bother to update
their web page on schedule, smacks of elitism (when in fact, it's just
plain carelessness).
Stuart has a lot of work to do to convince people that IG isn't yet
another Evil Empire. I hope he does it well.
Mike Bigskank
James:
I owe you a HUGE apology for this following little segment of my last
post. I was goin to fast to realize that Spiel 96 and Essen were the
same thing. Please disregard that portion.
*MY BAD* :-)
>>(Germany, incidentally, is where Spiel 96, the largest games convention
>>and trade show in the world, is being held next weekend. For a new
>>company with a hot product, it makes a lot of sense to be there. Again,
>>I'm assuming that's where Imperium has gone; I don't know for sure. But
>>to go to Germany at this time of year and not go to Essen would be
>>supreme idiocy, so again I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)
>Funny thing that. I guess you should stop giving them the benefit of
>the doubt. The update states:Sept 30,1996
>Imperium Games is now preparing to go to the ESSEN Game Fair in
>Frankfurt, Germany (the largest game fair in the world).
>As this is the case, when telephoning please feel free to leave your
>messages, and we will do our best to call you back.
Mike Bigskank
>>
>>>(The only other possibility is that the book wasn't at the printer, in
>>>which case Ken knew that there was no way it could possibly come out in
>>>September, and he was therefore either being irrational or lying when he
>>>said it would be published on time.
Well, with the latest update to their web page, which states:
[snip]
Oct 15,1996
As for JTAS #25 and Starships, they are on the way to the printer, so
expect a mid-November release, followed closely by
Alien Archive and Central Supply Catalog. It is our goal to get all
projects back on track by the end of December.
[snip]
So, with your words, then, and this information, Ken was either being
irrational, or lying when he said it would be published on time. I
believe that is what you were saying by the following, but Im not
quite sure...
But ask yourself why he would lie
>>>about something like that. Where's the benefit to him or Imperium from
>>>claiming that a book will be out on time when he knows it won't?
Actually, now having reviewed your logic, not even my own, I am going
to have to come to the conclusion that Ken Whitman was lying to the
public. Why would he do so? Good question...maybe to give you and I
something to talk about? Where is the benefit? I dont know, maybe he
didnt want me to be a customer. Maybe he didnt want many other
customers? I dont know.
>I leave all this, and the fact that Imperium has announced that the book
>will now be a November release, as an academic exercise for the reader.
Academic exercise? Hmmm...You mean it is up to us to come to the
conclusion, with the information that you have so readily given to us,
as a professional in the industry, that Ken Whitman was lying to us,
or being irrational, which I donot think the latter was the case. He
knew the book wasnt at the printers, and he also knew that they could
not be possible done on time. Now, it is a minor academic exercise to
come to a conclusion...
>Being an industry professional talking about other industry
>professionals, I'm obliged -- once again -- to give them the benefit of
>the doubt here. You may disagree. That's fine; you're not an industry
>professional. Bitch all you like.
Your obliged to back up Ken Whitman, a liar? It must suck to be you.
>I could sub-edit them for you. Reasonable rates.
Hmm....email me a rate sheet, Im very interested :)
>If "Bigskank" is your real name, then I apologize unreservedly.
>Unfortunately around here "skank" is slang for "penis" (I have no idea
>quite how that derived from its original meaning of -- and I quote the
>Pen Dictionary of American Slang -- "a malodorous prostitute").
Wow, i didnot know this. I wasnt asking for an apology, and No,
BIGSKANK is not my real name. In fact, when i chose this for a
username, it was a nick, not for the sake of being known as a BIG
PEnis(Maybe i really should change this..maybe thats why when I IRC i
get so many messages..hehe) but, Skanking is a form of dancing. I
derived my nick from that. Im curious, were you politely attempting
to call me a BIGDICK? If so, please forgot all apologies sent, either
via email or usenet, for you deserve not one of them.
>--
>James Wallis, Director of Hogshead Publishing (ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
>Publishers of WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY (wf...@hogshead.demon.co.uk)
>(Warhammer is a trademark of Games Workshop Ltd, and is used with permission)
> Neither Hogshead Publishing nor anyone employed by it will
> ever buy anything from any spammed email or Usenet message
Mike
Michael T. Richter
> of pampered cry-babies? I fully understand why people who pre-paid for
HBs
> might be a bit ansy... but the venom I've been seeing over the lack of
> "keeping fans informed" seems somewhat silly to me.
I'm not sure if you noticed this, Steve, but the people expressing the
venom over not being informed *WERE* the people waiting for hardbacks. It
was the people whose money IG was holding hostage who were left high and
dry information-wise. Frankly I don't give a damn about IG's production
schedule since it is pretty much 100% fiction anyway! (Any gaming
company's production schedule is pretty much 100% fiction.)
> What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and
die?
We certainly didn't buy special editions of games from companies which had
yet to produce their first product, let me tell you.
> Delays in this business is nothing out of the ordinary, even for prepaid
> materials I'm told. Did companies with late product send postcards to
This is a very sad statement about this industry then. Transplant that
statement to several other industries and see if the reaction sounds
unreasonable then.
> materials I'm told. Did companies with late product send postcards to
> everyone on their mailing list, wasting money on that instead of paying
> the printer or spending time resolving whatever other reason their might
> be for the hold-ups? I really don't know, because I've always been
Updating a web page (which has a big promise of weekly updates on it
already!) cannot in any meaningful way be compared to sending postcards or
making a post on Refusenet. Note *some* of the big differences:
- Postcards have a cost per item sent. Web page updates have no cost
beyond the cost for having a web page in the first place. Same for
Refusenet postings -- it pretty much costs you the same to have Refusenet
access whether you post or not.
- Postcards take a slice of time per item sent. Web page updates have one
straight time cost. So does a single Refusenet posting.
- Once you have updated your web page, you can respond to e-mail with an
autobot which says "look at the web page." Once you have posted your
explanation to Refusenet, the fan base out in Refusenet will do this work
for you. There is no equivalent in postcards.
Your comparison is bogus.
--
Michael T. Richter
m...@igs.net
http://www.igs.net/~mtr/
TSR SteveM
Matthew M. Blackwell wrote:
> Steve, a lot of gamers get their release info from the Dragon,
> although they usually don't see a product announcement, they see an
> ad.
Well, I figured I was a mutant freak for not paying attention to such
things. :)
[snip]
> So, even without the net, gamers tend to know release schedules,
> IMHO.
Granted. 'Tis why companies to advertising. (Although, most companies
(IME) don't even put release dates on their ads... so, for the most part,
we'd know if something is coming up, but not exactly when it's coming
[barring entries like the "Upcoming Releases" in DRAGON and PYRAMID].
Which reminds me... DRAGONLANCE: FIFTH AGE and its supplements are not
AD&D, contrary to what it says in the current issue of PYRAMID. The FIFTH
AGE game runs off a completely different system that has nothing to do
with AD&D... other than it's published by the same company.
Jonathan Woodward
TSR SteveM (tsrs...@aol.com) wrote:
> Seems to me many of the responses to this thread should illustrate why
> Imperium Games (and many other companies) don't bother informing "fans"
> over the Usenet.
> No one needs this kind of "commentary."
-The fact that the consumers are angry and abusive does not mean
that _less_ communication is necessary, especially when one of the things
the consumers are angry about is the lack of communication.
-JW
Jonathan Woodward wood...@ftp.com or @io.com http://www.io.com/~woodward/
GCS/O a- C+++$ W++>+++$ N++ w++ t++ 5+ R+>+++$ b+++ DI++++ G++>++++ T+++$ y+
"I'm tempted to start a newsgroup alt.tv.animaniacs.JW.die.die.die!" -TM
James Wallis
In article <541e0f$5...@clark.zippo.com>, Mike Bigskank
<bigs...@ns1.tlk.net> writes
>
>>Being an industry professional talking about other industry
>>professionals, I'm obliged -- once again -- to give them the benefit of
>>the doubt here. You may disagree. That's fine; you're not an industry
>>professional. Bitch all you like.
>
>Your obliged to back up Ken Whitman, a liar?
I would not call Ken Whitman a liar, for many reasons. I don't know
what's been going on at Imperium -- it's just conceivable that the book
was at the printer when he wrote his original email, but was pulled off
the presses when someone at Imperium noticed a fatal error in it. Or the
printer may have objected -- as printers sometimes do -- to the material
in the book and refused to print it. I don't know.
It's also a matter of professional courtesy. The games industry is a
generally courteous place, and people make an effort not to criticise
each other or each other's companies in public. I started off trying to
explain all the possible reasons why Ken Whitman might have said what he
said, and all the things that might have stopped the Starships book
coming out on schedule. It was not my intention to call him a liar.
You may not recall the last time industry professionals went head-to-
head in this newsgroup: Steve Jackson vs. White Wolf, back in the summer
of 1994. It was ... interesting. It also created fall-out that still
hasn't finished falling.
> It must suck to be you.
Not at all. Life is good, sales are good, and I got to interview Jet Li
on Monday. (Which was a blast. Shaking hands and chatting with a major
movie star who's also a five-times world martial-arts champion ...) A
book I edited went to press today, and one I copy-edited two months ago
got extensively and positively quoted in The Guardian newspaper this
morning. Life has not sucked for quite a long time.
>>I could sub-edit them for you. Reasonable rates.
>
>Hmm....email me a rate sheet, Im very interested :)
$20/hour. Non-negotiable; no discount for bulk.
(Three dots in an ellipsis; apostrophe in "I'm"; full-stop at the end of
a sentence. You can have those three for free.)
>>If "Bigskank" is your real name, then I apologize unreservedly.
>>Unfortunately around here "skank" is slang for "penis" (I have no idea
>>quite how that derived from its original meaning of -- and I quote the
>>Pen Dictionary of American Slang -- "a malodorous prostitute").
>
>Wow, i didnot know this. I wasnt asking for an apology, and No,
>BIGSKANK is not my real name. In fact, when i chose this for a
>username, it was a nick, not for the sake of being known as a BIG
>PEnis(Maybe i really should change this..maybe thats why when I IRC i
>get so many messages..hehe) but, Skanking is a form of dancing. I
>derived my nick from that. Im curious, were you politely attempting
>to call me a BIGDICK? If so, please forgot all apologies sent, either
>via email or usenet, for you deserve not one of them.
I wasn't calling you a "big penis"; you've called yourself a "big penis"
(and, as noted above, "big malodorous prostitute" as well) with your
choice of nickname. I assumed -- wrongly -- that you knew all the
meanings of the word you'd chosen to identify yourself. Since you made a
conscious decision to call yourself "Bigskank", and the name wasn't any
accident of birth, then I stand by my original comments.
Dan Eveland
Jose Garcia <jga...@halcyon.com> wrote in article
<53vkla$a...@nwnews.wa.com>...
An alternative viewpoint:
Well, most print buyers I have seen spend most of their time coordinating
information between artists who think a trap is something to catch a bear
with and the printer that has to eat the job because the artist was too
lazy and or stupid to check all the EPS files for embedded fonts, or some
such blunder. Remember, most of these people putting together files have
little or no real experience in printing. The files that are put together
have to be processed, output, quality checked, imposed, plated and then put
on press. This takes time to be done CORRECTLY.
A good printer will partner with you, and if you have a good sales rep, can
handle the challenges that ANY print job brings with it. A good rep at the
printer makes all the difference. If you go to a crappy printer, or buy
purely on price, then you are getting what you deserve. You have to look at
the cost of errors versus the cheapest printing price. A good printer, who
is not always the cheapest, can SAVE you a lot of money. They might figure
out a better way of imposing your pages, or come up with other cost-saving
ideas. Just not screwing up can save you tons in shipping and other
"fixes".
Sending out a request for a quote will get you just that, a quote. Starting
a relationship with a printer is how to successfully get printing work
done. Work with a successful printer. Build a relationship with a GOOD
printer who wants your business, and is willing to WORK for it.
Having a good rep and customer service representative can solve all the
problems you have mentioned. As far as the film house/trade shop issues,
they are a dying breed desperately clinging on to life. They are having
enough trouble making the rent, much less keeping a customer happy.
Moving film from printer to printer means you have no commitment to the
relationship, which means you just jumped to the bottom of the priority
list. Someone must not value that film very much if they did not have the
printer return the film right after the job was done. Either that, or don't
expect to much concern when they can't find it.
By the way, I have been in many aspects of the publishing business, from
the artist side, to managing staff at a printer. Try looking at the
materials and instructions you give to a printer before being so quick to
blame everything on them.
--
Dan Eveland
deve...@earthlink.net
http://www.earthlink.net/~develand
Karen J. Cravens
In article <540ub0$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>Mike Bigskank wrote:
>
>> No, you see I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
>> Perhaps If they had put out a game that was worth the wait, or
>
>All of this "keeping the fans updated" and "why the mailing list and not
>Usenet" yada-yada-yada has got me wondering...
>
If I didn't have Usenet I wouldn't know T4 *existed*...
(I'm still not sure it does, actually.)
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Phoenyx Roleplaying Listserver - majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us
Home of the Phoenyx List of New Roleplaying Releases
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/rpglist.html
Karen J. Cravens
In article <PQNIdRAB...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>,
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Therefore, when Ken Whitman posted ten days or so from the end of
>September that he was confident the book would be out by the end of that
>month, he was implying heavily that it was already at the printer. He
>didn't say it directly, but to anyone who knows anything about book
>production, that's what he meant.
Did he actually say that? I remember him pointing out that there
was a week left in September, and letting us draw the obvious
conclusion, but I don't remember him actually *saying* that he
was confident. At least, not in the message I'm thinking of.
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Phoenyx Roleplaying Listserver - majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us
Home of china-1934-L, Pulp Adventure PBeM RPG
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/chinaji.html
jay...@ktb.net
NUELOW wrote:
> All of this "keeping the fans updated" and "why the mailing list and not
> Usenet" yada-yada-yada has got me wondering...
>
> What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and die?
> Delays in this business is nothing out of the ordinary, even for prepaid
> materials I'm told. Did companies with late product send postcards to
> everyone on their mailing list, wasting money on that instead of paying
> the printer or spending time resolving whatever other reason their might
> be for the hold-ups? I really don't know, because I've always been
> pleasantly surprised every time I walk into a game store and see some new
> release for my favourite game... never did pay attention to release
> schedules and such.
Well, a bunch o' years back I used to work for 3W (World Wide Wargames).
3W used to do a lot of pre-selling of games, many of which turned out to
be REALLY late (and a couple never came out at all). What these
customers generally did fell into a few categories:
They forgot they ordered it (this happens more than you might think)...
They called regularly (sometimes to get a refund)
They mailed letters (angry or otherwise)
It's pretty much the same thing that is happening here except that we
have (or thought we had) better access to the manufacturer than those
hapless customers of 3W. Of course, if any of these customers had called
to check on the status of a game and gotten a disconnected message...
with no access to the internet... what are the chances that this person
would conclude that the company had gone out of business and taken their
money with them?
Anywway, you asked.
- Jay
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This message brought to you by...
http://www.ktb.net/~jayadan
Matthew R Blackwell
In <Vfo+OUAS...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> James Wallis
<Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> It must suck to be you.
>
>Not at all. Life is good, sales are good, and I got to interview Jet
Li
>on Monday. (Which was a blast. Shaking hands and chatting with a major
>movie star who's also a five-times world martial-arts champion ...)
James, have the people at Daedelus started pestering you with "Wow!
What's Jet Li really like?" questions yet? <g>
Carl Perkins
"Michael T. Richter" <m...@igs.net> writes...
}> What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and
}die?
}
}yet to produce their first product, let me tell you.
Well, I recall ordering an AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide some 3-4 months
before it actually came out. Of course, that was through the Judges Guild
not TSR and it wasn't a "special edition". I (and Judges Guild) had no way
of knowing for certain when it would actually be out (at that time TSR was
not quite as good at sticking to the announced schedule as it is now). I
also didn't particularly care what the exact release date was. Kids these
days - all instant gratification, no patience.
}> Delays in this business is nothing out of the ordinary, even for prepaid
}> materials I'm told. Did companies with late product send postcards to
}
}This is a very sad statement about this industry then. Transplant that
}statement to several other industries and see if the reaction sounds
}unreasonable then.
}Michael T. Richter
It doesn't, actually. Delays happen in al industries. The are less common
or of shorter average duration in some but they still happen.
--- Carl
James Wallis
In article <01bbbbb9$3b5216c0$369f2299@my-computer>, Dan Eveland
<deve...@earthlink.net> writes
>
>Moving film from printer to printer means you have no commitment to the
>relationship, which means you just jumped to the bottom of the priority
>list. Someone must not value that film very much if they did not have the
>printer return the film right after the job was done. Either that, or don't
>expect to much concern when they can't find it.
We weren't -- as you assume -- creating our film from digital sources.
Instead, we were creating it from ten-year-old UK-originated film, which
is in all respects (page size, pos/neg, emulsion side, etc) different to
US film. The printer we usually use told us that they couldn't do the
conversion job, so we spent a long time looking for somewhere that
could. We finally found one -- Printer A, from my example.
(The first time Hogshead needed a film-conversion job like this, we had
it done in the UK. Coverting 128 pages of film ended up costing slightly
more than the price of printing 4000 copies of the book in question. I
was eager to avoid a repeat of that situation.)
>By the way, I have been in many aspects of the publishing business, from
>the artist side, to managing staff at a printer. Try looking at the
>materials and instructions you give to a printer before being so quick to
>blame everything on them.
I've never had any problems or complaints about that end of things (I've
been working with printers since 1985); and it doesn't explain the other
example of printer screw-up I gave: the new book which sat for over a
week in the printers' shipping bay, waiting to be sent to our warehouse
five miles away, and which missed its shipping date as a result. If I
hadn't happened to drop in on the printer two days before Gen Con
(which, considering I live in England, the printer is in Michigan and
Gen Con is in Wisconsin, was a considerable stroke of luck) they might
be sitting there still.
James Wallis
In article <5443ad$m...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mbla...@ix.netcom.com
writes
Very close. I'm sure Jose Garcia of Daedalus won't mind when I tell you
that his email began: "Holy shit! Details!"
Joseph M. Saul
James Wallis said:
>I've never had any problems or complaints about that end of things (I've
>been working with printers since 1985); and it doesn't explain the other
>example of printer screw-up I gave: the new book which sat for over a
>week in the printers' shipping bay, waiting to be sent to our warehouse
>five miles away, and which missed its shipping date as a result.
I'm the guy who reviews the "blues" for James (if you don't know what that
means, you probably aren't following this thread any more), and I'd just
like to back him up on what he says above. James' originals are clean,
and Hogshead has excellent relations with the printer. Nevertheless,
there have been some bizarre problems, like the "oops, we forgot to ship
them" incident.
I guess it's the nature of the business; Hogshead does everything it can
(or "they can," for the UK crowd ;-) to simplify matters.
Joe Saul
jms...@umich.edu
Mike Bigskank
pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) wrote:
>Did he actually say that? I remember him pointing out that there
>was a week left in September, and letting us draw the obvious
>conclusion, but I don't remember him actually *saying* that he
>was confident. At least, not in the message I'm thinking of.
His exact words were as follows...
Secondly, we are not late on our future products, our release date is
SEP.
James Wallis
In article <L2WZy0C/kM+D...@southwind.net>, "Karen J. Cravens"
<pho...@southwind.net> writes
>In article <PQNIdRAB...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>,
>James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Therefore, when Ken Whitman posted ten days or so from the end of
>>September that he was confident the book would be out by the end of that
>>month, he was implying heavily that it was already at the printer. He
>>didn't say it directly, but to anyone who knows anything about book
>>production, that's what he meant.
>
>was a week left in September, and letting us draw the obvious
>conclusion, but I don't remember him actually *saying* that he
>was confident. At least, not in the message I'm thinking of.
My recollection isn't as clear as yours, and my mail-reader is set to
expire news after a couple of days, but that does ring a bell. I thought
I recalled some comment that the book would come out on time, or at
least heavy implication in that direction. If that's not the case, then
I apologise unreservedly to Ken Whitman for any misapprehensions I may
have introduced.
Michael W. Ryan
pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) wrote:
> In article <540ub0$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
> >Mike Bigskank wrote:
> >
> >> No, you see I am not going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
> >> Perhaps If they had put out a game that was worth the wait, or
> >> perhaps if I and many other fans had been properly updated
> >
> >All of this "keeping the fans updated" and "why the mailing list and not
> >Usenet" yada-yada-yada has got me wondering...
> >
> >What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and die?
> If I didn't have Usenet I wouldn't know T4 *existed*...
What? You don't talk to the owner of your local game store?
The only difference between the information I find out here and from
him are:
1) I tend to find it out a little faster.
2) Mine tends to contain alot more gossip, while his is more
concrete.
> (I'm still not sure it does, actually.)
Yes, it does.
Michael W. Ryan
Email: mr...@netaxs.com
WWW: http://www.netaxs.com/~mryan/
Thomas Biskup
Mike Bigskank <bigs...@ns1.tlk.net> wrote:
> James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >(Germany, incidentally, is where Spiel 96, the largest games convention
> >and trade show in the world, is being held next weekend. For a new
> >company with a hot product, it makes a lot of sense to be there. Again,
> >I'm assuming that's where Imperium has gone; I don't know for sure. But
> >to go to Germany at this time of year and not go to Essen would be
> >supreme idiocy, so again I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)
Well, I was there on thursday and didn't see anyone from Imperium
Games. Either they were hidden very well or they still need to show
up (or they are making a stupid holiday over here in Germany).
> Funny thing that. I guess you should stop giving them the benefit of
> the doubt. The update states:Sept 30,1996
> Imperium Games is now preparing to go to the ESSEN Game Fair in
> Frankfurt, Germany (the largest game fair in the world).
The Essen Game Fair actually is located in the city of Essen, not
Frankfurt :-)
BTW, Traveller presence was next to non-existant on the convention (at
least on thursday -- I'll be again there on saturday). I found but
three locations which sold the Traveller softcover and non of them
were obvious. Traveller seems to be pretty dead over here in Germany
(I also heard that the two largest distributors in Germany are not
interested in carrying Traveller -- don't know whether it's true but
one of them had the new Traveller softcovers dumped into a box with
old Traveller stuff).
--
Thomas Biskup EMail to: bis...@saranxis.ruhr.de
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code."
Scott Taylor
In article <543d22$3...@nntp-3.io.com> Jonathan Woodward, wood...@io.com
writes:
>TSR SteveM (tsrs...@aol.com) wrote:
>> Seems to me many of the responses to this thread should illustrate why
>> Imperium Games (and many other companies) don't bother informing "fans"
>> over the Usenet.
>> No one needs this kind of "commentary."
>
> -The fact that the consumers are angry and abusive does not mean
>that _less_ communication is necessary, especially when one of the things
>the consumers are angry about is the lack of communication.
Ahh...
But you see, in the days before instant Net-based gratification, the
only way to check up on the status of a project was to;
1; call the company (requires going and looking up the number,
and a long distance phone-call that is easily re-routed, ignored,
whatever).*
2; Send them real, actual snail-mail (requires finding the address,
a .xy$ stamp (where x and y vary based on where you are), and
again can be easily ignored, form lettered, lost, whatever.*
3; live near them, be friends with them, and get the real scoop.
4; meet/see them at a Con and ask.
5; hear a rumor from a game-monger or other gamer
6; see an add for something in a magazine or see it in one of
the trade publications (many of which are actually quite
recent) or fanzine.
Since the information for 1 and 2 were sometimes hard to get ahold
of (as people used DBAs, had no company address or phone, or
what have you), this made 3 or 4 the only reliable method of
information (5 was almost always wrong on items to come out in the
future, and 6 involved ads, which can be... optimistic at times).
But now we have the web, and so everyone wants weekly updates on
Web sites, and a full-time Internet Liaison, and representation
on every major on-line service, and personalized E-mail messages
sent out when a product will be late, and... and... and...
bullshit.
What *I* want is good product, that I can read, with no-few errors,
nicely laid out. On-time is nice (and boosts my assessment of the
company involved immeasureably), but is not vital; I would rather
have great product tomorrow than good today. And if that means that
Web sites are updated less often, or Internet updates are spotty,
so be it.
(actually, what I *really* want is lots of freelance work,
and companies that pay freelancers on time and competitive
rates... :-)
I have a lot of respect for James Wallis, and Jose Garcia,
and Steve and the others who take time out to keep us
informed and sit and chat with us. But if the time they
are spending cuts into the time they spend on products...
(obviously, some people use their time as a chance to relax
from their duties... why I don't know, given the overall tone
here recently :-)
The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft agley (sp?). Sometimes
a company plans on putting out a product on time, and Murphy gets
involved. The layout guy gets *really* sick, or quits, or dies. The
printer tells you to blow, or gets a rush order, or the films don't
come out right. The editor has an unhappy love affair and is
distracted. The printer holds shipment on the product until the
rest of the payment is made (never mind that the rest of the payment
being made depends on getting the product out to the distributors).
As the saying goes;
"Shit happens"
Yes, IG has screwed up in some ways. Yes, T4 maybe wasn't perfect.
It certainly was late. That may have been a printers problem, it
may have been something else. Yes, it looks like Starships and
others are going to be late. Yeah, Ken committed a rather major
faux-pas.
But the amount of vitriol thrown over this is *astounding*.
White Wolf products (to name *one* company; no-one is immune
to the late and buggy virus, except maybe TSR [unless one
goes back far enough]) have *regularly* come out with
*major* holes in the system, in concept, in layout, and
late. *Every* one has had a 2nd edition come out within
2 years of the original. (I am *not* bashing WWgames in
specific, merely grabbing the first one that comes to
most peoples minds). Many games have had major holes in
them, come out late, and been hugely popular.
Some will say "but they have a billion years of
game-writing experience between them" So what? That doesn't
prevent all forms of shit-happens from happening. And since
the team is spread out all over the country, that makes things
even worse in a lot of respects. And they are still a start-up
company, with all of the problems that are innate in a
start-up; no credit, no history, no reputation, problems with
set-up, etc.
Scott Taylor
These opinions in no way at all reflect those of the companies
I have, will, or might work for. They don't pay me to rep them,
I don't pay them to use their reputations.
* I do not mean to intimate that this happened always, or even often,
nor that any companies made a habit of this. But it did happen,
sometimes by accident, sometimes on purpose.
George W. Harris
Nothing much to add here, just a little aphorism
of warning:
"There's many a slip 'twixt printing and ship."
--
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* fifty states seem a little suspicious?
George W. Harris gha...@dur.mindspring.com
Terry Austin
What you say is all true. But to me, it seems silly to even have
marketing resources like web pages, or even an email account, and not
only not use them effectively, but use them negatively. *Any* company
that spends the money to have a web page, especially one that accepts
orders, needs to keep it up to date. Not necessarily weeks, or on
*any* regular schedule, but WHENEVER THE INFORMATION CHANGES. No
amount of "shit happens" excuses having disconnected phone numbers on
a web page, especially when the move was announced elsewhere online.
And there has been not one but several instances of incorrect
information being put out by email, web page and phone conversation
about the shipping date of the hardcovers. Again, no excuse. They
have a responsibility to have the employees who answer the phone, and
tell people when their purchase is being shipped have the CORRECT
information. And I'm not talking about "we expect to ship on this
date," I'm talking about "We shipped the hardcovers last week."
If they're going to spend money on the tools, dammit use them *right*!
I can kinda see the stupid posts, like Ken Whitman's rant. Not too
many people, in the gaming industry or elsewhere, are used to the
immediacy of Usenet or email. It's *way* easier to fire off a flaming
response without thinking than it is with snail mail, where you can
reconsider on the way to the post office. But I just *cannot*
understand why someone would spend all that money on a web site, and
they not even bother to keep it up to date. And I can't even begin to
understand why they'd keep the mailing list so up to date but not
bother sending the same post the the news group. I could do it with
my news reader at the same time.
I know that this is all very new to most people, but it seems that
nobody learns. If they're going to play around on the 'Net, they need
to learn to do it right, or they'll do more damage than good. The
consumer is a *lot* more demanding than he was ten years ago, and the
'Netter even more so. And when we don't get what we want, we take our
money elsewhere. And frequently, so do our friends.
---------------------------------
Terry Austin, Companion of Loyal Order of Chivalry & Sorcery
Hyperbooks Online Bookstore
Coming soon: Guns, Guns, Guns by BTRC in Acrobat® format, with an Excel spreadsheet to make it easy!
http://www.hyperbooks.com/
---------------------------------
Jim Davies
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
snip
>I live in England, the printer is in Michigan and
>Gen Con is in Wisconsin, was a considerable stroke of luck) they might
>be sitting there still.
OK, dumb question time:
Why not get it printed in England?
Dr Jim Davies...idiot in disguise
James Wallis
In article <54e0rd$7...@power2.power.net.uk>, Jim Davies
<j...@moose.powernet.co.uk> writes
>James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>>I live in England, the printer is in Michigan and
>>Gen Con is in Wisconsin, was a considerable stroke of luck) they might
>>be sitting there still.
>
>OK, dumb question time:
>
>Why not get it printed in England?
Because UK printers charge roughly 130% what US printers do, and I don't
fancy having to pay transatlantic shipping charges on top of that.
Three-quarters of the world's RPG market is in the USA and Canada. The
UK market isn't large enough to support a RPG publisher worthy of the
name, as countless failed companies have proved over the last ten years.
I'd like to support the home team, but I'd prefer not to go bankrupt.
Karen J. Cravens
In article <R9qhmcAb$nZy...@hogshead.demon.co.uk>,
James Wallis <Ja...@hogshead.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <L2WZy0C/kM+D...@southwind.net>, "Karen J. Cravens"
><pho...@southwind.net> writes
>>was a week left in September, and letting us draw the obvious
>>conclusion, but I don't remember him actually *saying* that he
>>was confident. At least, not in the message I'm thinking of.
>
>My recollection isn't as clear as yours, and my mail-reader is set to
>expire news after a couple of days, but that does ring a bell. I thought
>I recalled some comment that the book would come out on time, or at
>least heavy implication in that direction. If that's not the case, then
>I apologise unreservedly to Ken Whitman for any misapprehensions I may
>have introduced.
Even if my recollections are correct (I expire news fast too, on
top of which I just got back from vacation so what I'm replying
to here was probably close to expiry too), that would pretty
clearly be deliberate deception. If someone said that to me in
person, then said "Well, I never actually *said* I was
confident," I'd slap him anyway, so...
However, I will reserve physical violence for *after* when I've
checked DejaNews.
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Keeper of the Phoenyx List of Current RPG Releases
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/rpglist.html
Karen J. Cravens
In article <546li6$1...@netaxs.com>, mr...@netaxs.com (Michael W. Ryan) wrote:
>pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) wrote:
>> If I didn't have Usenet I wouldn't know T4 *existed*...
>
>What? You don't talk to the owner of your local game store?
Why, yes. Yes, I do. He relies on *me* to inform him of what's
going on. And he still doesn't have T4. Come to that, he still
doesn't have Slag! and we ordered that, um, whenever it came out.
The *first* time.
See, I live in a gaming vacuum. I got the main "game" store,
which is a comic store first, a card store second, and games are
over there somewhere. Sometimes you have to move the inflatable
Spider-Man and the cardboard Hulk to actually *get* to the games,
but they're back there. The "New This Week" is the next-to-last
issue of Shadis, and has been for several weeks.
Then I got the next best one, which is on the other side of town,
and which is a yuppie board game store first (because that brings
in the bucks), a wargame store second (because the owner is a
wargamer from Way Back), and he keeps a few roleplaying games
around because some of us are loyal customers. He stocks a
little TSR, the major GURPS books, and the odd ICE product, along
with a few oddities (he's had a copy of Synnibarr, frex, sitting
there since it came out). Anything else is on a by-request
basis, but if it doesn't come from his regular distributors, the
shipping makes it uneconomical for him to order it.
Then I got the last one, which is also on the other side of town,
and which is an RC shop first, a model rocket store second, and
the owner is a GURPS GM so he orders in enough copies of each
GURPS book for anyone in his group who wants it, and sometimes
miscounts so that goes on the shelf with the Palladium stuff he
usually stocks.
And my company wonders why, when they send me to another city, I
always want a rental car. I haven't yet explained that it's
because I'M LOOKING FOR A REAL GAME STORE...
Jonathan Woodward
Scott Taylor (izzy...@faerealm.com) wrote:
> In article <543d22$3...@nntp-3.io.com> Jonathan Woodward, wood...@io.com
> >that _less_ communication is necessary, especially when one of the things
> >the consumers are angry about is the lack of communication.
> only way to check up on the status of a project was to;
> But now we have the web, and so everyone wants weekly updates on
> Web sites, and a full-time Internet Liaison, and representation
> on every major on-line service, and personalized E-mail messages
> sent out when a product will be late, and... and... and...
> bullshit.
-It is no more unreasonable to want better communication in 1996
than in 1981; than it is to want better medical care in 1996 than in 1846.
IG's communication with its customers should be judged by current
standards, not obsolete ones.
-JW
Jonathan Woodward wood...@ftp.com or @io.com http://www.io.com/~woodward/
GCS/O a- C+++$ W++>+++$ N++ w++ t++ 5+ R+>+++$ b+++ DI++++ G++>++++ T+++$ y+
Spoiler: In _Murder On The Orient Express_, everyone did it.
jay...@ktb.net
Karen J. Cravens wrote:
>
> Then I got the last one, which is also on the other side of town,
> and which is an RC shop first, a model rocket store second, and
> the owner is a GURPS GM so he orders in enough copies of each
> GURPS book for anyone in his group who wants it, and sometimes
> miscounts so that goes on the shelf with the Palladium stuff he
> usually stocks.
>
> And my company wonders why, when they send me to another city, I
> always want a rental car. I haven't yet explained that it's
> because I'M LOOKING FOR A REAL GAME STORE...
It seems to me that you are a prime candidate for mail-order. There
seems to be at least a small handfull of reliable mail-order game stores
around that you would do a lot better going that route.
David G. Bell
> -It is no more unreasonable to want better communication in 1996
> than in 1981; than it is to want better medical care in 1996 than in 1846.
> IG's communication with its customers should be judged by current
> standards, not obsolete ones.
I'm not too bothered by the poor communication, but IG have rather shot
themselves in the foot by giving a clear impression that they knew how
many packages they had to ship and, even with printing delays allowing
them more time to prepare, not being able to ship them promptly.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
Terry Austin
pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) wrote:
>Why, yes. Yes, I do. He relies on *me* to inform him of what's
>going on. And he still doesn't have T4. Come to that, he still
>doesn't have Slag! and we ordered that, um, whenever it came out.
>The *first* time.
You know, I *do* mail order the entire BTRC line, shipping included at
the list price (in the US, at least). An no sales tax, either!
If there's that much interest, I'll look into finding distributors who
do small orders on everything else.
Mike Bigskank
jay...@ktb.net wrote:
>It seems to me that you are a prime candidate for mail-order. There
>seems to be at least a small handfull of reliable mail-order game stores
>around that you would do a lot better going that route.
>- Jay
I am in the same boat as Karen. I live in Crescent City Ca which has
NO Game stores, a Comic book shop that rips ppl off, and a public
opinion of Role Playing games lower than the dirt beneath a snakes
belly. The CLOSEST game stores to me are an hour and half. I must
say tho, at least these are good ones, one which will order anything.
JAy, you did mention Mail order companies, reliable ones? What are
they? I have been searching..... I have dealt with Titan
Games(Quincey Kozoil) for used stuff, and that works out pretty good.
But I would love to find a Mail order company that is reliable.
Micheal Feldhusen
pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) writes:
>In article <540ub0$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>>
>>All of this "keeping the fans updated" and "why the mailing list and not
>>Usenet" yada-yada-yada has got me wondering...
>>
>>What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and die?
>If I didn't have Usenet I wouldn't know T4 *existed*...
>(I'm still not sure it does, actually.)
Well, it does. I've seen it in stores and have had my hardcover for about
1 1/2 weeks (almost 2 now).
--
Michael Feldhusen (mi...@pharlap.com [preferred] ||
mf...@netcom.com [news only])
Jimmy Carter says the GOP Convention was "a debacle." That's high praise
from our country's Debacleur-in-Chief.
-- National Review
Greg Mohler
In article <54hoop$1...@clark.zippo.com>,
Mike Bigskank <bigs...@ns1.tlk.net> wrote:
>
>JAy, you did mention Mail order companies, reliable ones? What are
>they? I have been searching..... I have dealt with Titan
>Games(Quincey Kozoil) for used stuff, and that works out pretty good.
>But I would love to find a Mail order company that is reliable.
>Mike
>
I'm very impressed with Wargames West. Big, thick catalogs, tons o' miniatures,
even all that fancy card-game jazz. I've been ordering from them since '90,
and I've never had a problem (I even use my credit card; haven't had a
mysterious credit card charge yet). Nicest aspect: if you place your order by
phone while using a credit card, your order gets to you in about a week.
Best way to get in touch with them: dial 1-800-SAY-GAME, ask for a catalog
(it should still be free).
Two important caveats: * last I checked, they still refuse to carry some White
Wolf stuff.
* judging from the last few catalogs, they're planning
on some major changes. Don't know if that's good or bad.
Greg
--
Greg Mohler *** http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~greggo
Send flames and dirty limericks to: gre...@pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu
WALK -- DO NOT RUN -- MAINTAIN SILENCE
Karen J. Cravens
In article <54hpb0$p...@news1.ni.net>,
tau...@hyperbooks.com (Terry Austin) wrote:
>You know, I *do* mail order the entire BTRC line, shipping included at
>the list price (in the US, at least). An no sales tax, either!
Heh. You may recall an email conversation with someone whose
From: ends in @southwind.net, and whose last name is also
Cravens, concerning the electronic version... :}
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Phoenyx Roleplaying Listserver - majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us
Home of x-files-pbem-L, The X-Files PBeM RPG
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/xfiles.html
Don Strong
Instant Cards & Games has done well enough by me that I've
become a sales rep for them. They do mail and net ordering, and
the prices (especially after you've ordered from them a few
times) are good. I live on the West coast, and it takes me
one to two weeks (average 9 days) to get stuff from them.
URL is below. Email if you have questions.
--
===============================================================
Don Strong email: str...@instantgames.com
For games and gaming supplies at great prices, go to
http://instantgames.com/15
===============================================================
Karen J. Cravens
In article <mfeldDz...@netcom.com>,
mf...@netcom.com (Micheal Feldhusen) wrote:
>pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) writes:
>
>>In article <540ub0$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, nue...@aol.com (NUELOW) wrote:
>>>
>>>All of this "keeping the fans updated" and "why the mailing list and not
>>>Usenet" yada-yada-yada has got me wondering...
>>>
>>>What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and die?
>
>>If I didn't have Usenet I wouldn't know T4 *existed*...
>
>>(I'm still not sure it does, actually.)
>
>Well, it does. I've seen it in stores and have had my hardcover for about
>1 1/2 weeks (almost 2 now).
Yes, and? If I didn't have Usenet, I wouldn't know *you*
existed. What does *that* prove? :}
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Phoenyx Roleplaying Listserver - majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us
Home of excalibur-L, Star Trek PBeM RPG
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/pbemlist.html#excalibur
Andy Lilly
>>>What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and
die?
>>If I didn't have Usenet I wouldn't know T4 *existed*...
>>(I'm still not sure it does, actually.)
>Well, it does. I've seen it in stores and have had my hardcover for
about
>1 1/2 weeks (almost 2 now).
In the UK, it was launched at European GEN CON by British Isles Traveller
Support (Ken and Lester and Chris Foss came over too).
BITS ran demos, a RPGA tournament, participation games, sold T4, sold our
adventure The Long Way Home (the first licensed Milieu 0 adventure for
T4), etc. Our stand was packed every day.
BITS also puts out a newsletter by post and e-mail to members so that
they know what the latest status is on IG and their products. BITS has
been working closely with IG since they first took over from GDW, hence
our ability to put out our adventure _at_ the UK launch. You'll also see
BITS names in upcoming publications, e.g. the Milieu 0 book...
It's not all doom and gloom, although IG's handling of the signed
hardbacks has been a significant failure on the PR front. This is not too
surprising for a first book, given the original time pressure on IG to
produce a profit. Now that they've divided the financial responsibility
from the games development I would hope we will see an improvement in
quality...
Andy :-)
Micheal Feldhusen
pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) writes:
>>>>What did gamers do before Usenet? Wait by the mailbox? Shrivel up and die?
>>
>>>If I didn't have Usenet I wouldn't know T4 *existed*...
>>
>>>(I'm still not sure it does, actually.)
>>
>>Well, it does. I've seen it in stores and have had my hardcover for about
>>1 1/2 weeks (almost 2 now).
>Yes, and? If I didn't have Usenet, I wouldn't know *you*
>existed. What does *that* prove? :}
Correction, Karen, you knew that I existed before *either* of us were
hooked up to Usenet. Granted we've never met FTF, but I was calling The
Old Phoenyx *before* your last move.
--Mike
(Whose .sig has appearently offended someone's delicate sensibilities and
therefore has been banished.)
George W. Harris
In Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:19:19 -0500 of yore, pho...@southwind.net (Karen J.
Cravens) wrote thusly:
=Then I got the last one, which is also on the other side of town,
=and which is an RC shop first, a model rocket store second, and
What is an "RC shop"? The only thing I can think of is
a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
(such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
=--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
jay...@ktb.net
Greg Mohler wrote:
>
> In article <54hoop$1...@clark.zippo.com>,
> Mike Bigskank <bigs...@ns1.tlk.net> wrote:
> >
> >JAy, you did mention Mail order companies, reliable ones? What are
> >they? I have been searching..... I have dealt with Titan
> >Games(Quincey Kozoil) for used stuff, and that works out pretty good.
> >But I would love to find a Mail order company that is reliable.
> >Mike
> >
>
> I'm very impressed with Wargames West. Big, thick catalogs, tons o' miniatures,
> even all that fancy card-game jazz. I've been ordering from them since '90,
> and I've never had a problem (I even use my credit card; haven't had a
> mysterious credit card charge yet). Nicest aspect: if you place your order by
> phone while using a credit card, your order gets to you in about a week.
>
> Best way to get in touch with them: dial 1-800-SAY-GAME, ask for a catalog
> (it should still be free).
I'll second the vote or Wargames West. There are a bunch of different
places around that'll give you a big discount (something WW doesn't do)
but on the other hand when you send out your money you know that WW is
going to send you something.
Titan Games is probably a good bet as well. I've dealt with Quincey in
the past and have no problem with him at all.
Although I think that it is very tempting to order something from a
mail-order place that advertises 20-30% or bigger discounts... I can't
help but feel uneasy about it. If something seems to good to be true it
usually is.
David Crowe
George W. Harris <gha...@dur.mindspring.com> wrote:
: In Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:19:19 -0500 of yore, pho...@southwind.net (Karen J.
: Cravens) wrote thusly:
: =Then I got the last one, which is also on the other side of town,
: =and which is an RC shop first, a model rocket store second, and
: What is an "RC shop"? The only thing I can think of is
: a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
: (such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
Mmmmm. RC Cola and Moon Pies. Actually, I think RC refers to "Radio
Control" as in RC cars, planes boats and so on. I think there are more
"hobby" shops than strict "game" shops in the US. The most popular hobby
in the region takes up the most space in the local stores.
--
David "No Nickname" Crowe No generalization is true
-not even this one.
Karen J. Cravens
In article <54ltib$s...@camel0.mindspring.com>,
gha...@dur.mindspring.com (George W. Harris) wrote:
>In Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:19:19 -0500 of yore, pho...@southwind.net (Karen J.
>Cravens) wrote thusly:
>
>=Then I got the last one, which is also on the other side of town,
>=and which is an RC shop first, a model rocket store second, and
>
> What is an "RC shop"? The only thing I can think of is
>a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
>(such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
Remote Control... little toy vehicles to annoy people with when
in public parks. Or to spend hours painting, decalling, and
tuning only to crash/sink on the maiden flight/voyage. I've
never really seen the point... I've got a little plastic
Corvette that goes forward and back/turn, and it's more than
enough to keep the cats entertained, and it only set me back a
few dollars...
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Phoenyx Roleplaying Listserver - majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us
Home of pbem-announce-L, the PBeM RPG Announcements list
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/rolelist.html#pbem-announce
Terry Austin
pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) wrote:
>Heh. You may recall an email conversation with someone whose
>From: ends in @southwind.net, and whose last name is also
>Cravens, concerning the electronic version... :}
And a print manager that was set to print directly to the port? Ya, I
remember. BTW, Greg and I are accepting advance orders on the
hardcover of Guns, Guns, Guns, expected to ship *around* Nov 21. The
electronic version will be out sooner.
Marcus Rowland
In message-ID: <54ltib$s...@camel0.mindspring.com> George W. Harris said
> What is an "RC shop"? The only thing I can think of is
> a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
> (such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
Radio-controlled models, perhaps? Seems to go with model rockets.
Marcus L. Rowland
mrow...@cix.co.uk
"Trust The Computer;
The Computer is your GENERAL PROTECTION FAULT AT 002:0A0D"
Carl Perkins
In article <54ltib$s...@camel0.mindspring.com>, gha...@dur.mindspring.com writes...
}In Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:19:19 -0500 of yore, pho...@southwind.net (Karen J.
}Cravens) wrote thusly:
}
}=Then I got the last one, which is also on the other side of town,
}=and which is an RC shop first, a model rocket store second, and
}
}a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
}(such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
}
I expect that would be Remote Control (or Radio Control, I suppose). As in
airplanes, cars, boats, and remotely operated robotic death machines (if you
don't believe that last one, check out the Robot Wars web site:
http://pomo.nbn.com/rwi/index.html, it has pictures and everything).
Or it could be a bit of a pun and they could sell donkeys and their relatives.
--- Carl
Kevin Mowery
GoldRushG (gold...@aol.com) wrote:
: << Actually, where IG really flubbed was when they announced their release
: schedule, period. IMO. I'd never have done that if I were a start-up
: company. "Winter '96" woulda been as daring as I would've gotten on those
: first releases. >>
: Amen. We've released two books to date, and both were 4-6 weeks past the
: "scheduled" release date. Partly our fault, partly not. Still, we've
: learned the hard way. Our general policy for future products is not to
: announce a release date until the book is ready to go to print. And even
: then we'll give ourselves a healthy buffer to account for printer screwups
: (which *do* happen).
And if you give yourself a healthy buffer, with a little luck you
not only won't be late, you might even garner a reputation for getting
your products out early.
From the standpoint of someone who's strictly a consumer, the only
things that really impress me from a game company are a good product and
timeliness. If that product is consistently good and occasionally early,
I'd canonize the lot at that company if I could.
The inverse is also true. Lots of games have been delayed, for
whatever reason, and without good PR it aggravates me, the consumer.
Sometimes to the point that I think of taking a road trip to the company's
offices to tell them to quit doing whatever it is they're doing that
involves not releasing a product promised at an earlier date.
So, I guess what I think would be a smart way to go as a game
company, from the point of view of someone who's buying the games and
seeing the ads, is to mention what you're working on but not give a specific
release date. Just enough to whet the appetite. When it's on its way to
the printer, announce a rough release date based on when it should be in
the stores, not when it's planned to be back from the printer or shipped.
Consumers couldn't care less if the distributors get copies on a certain
date, just when we can get our copies. And if there is a delay, do
everything possible to notify the public why--telling distributors,
posting online, putting notices on the web page, sending flyers to the
people who get catalogs, whatever. Most of that is essentially free, and
we appreciate knowing what's going on. It stops rumors, and it lets us
know what we should expect (for one game I kept $30 set aside for several
months, figuring it'd be out "any day now", then got sick of it and spent
the $30 on something else). Printer problems? A month or two. Creative
differences? Spend the money now because they'll have changed the money
by the time you see the game (I've been good and not mentioned any games
or companies by name but I'm going to stop that for a second: do you
realize that since we all first expected In Nomine, the US gov't has
actually ~changed~ one of the major pieces of currency?).
Anyway, that's just my two cents. I could be wrong.
: Mark Arsenault
: Gold Rush Games
--
Kevin "Monkey Man" Mowery (kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us)
"Thus the task of local MC was normally handled by someone local--even at
times by a noncomedian, like the owner of the club or a hostess or
Gallagher." --Bill Maher, _True Story_
GoldRushG
<< Actually, where IG really flubbed was when they announced their release
schedule, period. IMO. I'd never have done that if I were a start-up
company. "Winter '96" woulda been as daring as I would've gotten on those
first releases. >>
Amen. We've released two books to date, and both were 4-6 weeks past the
"scheduled" release date. Partly our fault, partly not. Still, we've
learned the hard way. Our general policy for future products is not to
announce a release date until the book is ready to go to print. And even
then we'll give ourselves a healthy buffer to account for printer screwups
(which *do* happen).
Mark Arsenault
Gold Rush Games
Terry Austin
gha...@dur.mindspring.com (George W. Harris) wrote:
> What is an "RC shop"? The only thing I can think of is
>a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
>(such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
Radio Control, I suspect. Which is a really *odd* thing to mix with
gaming. . .
Bryant Durrell
In article <54nqkd$k...@news1.ni.net>,
Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>gha...@dur.mindspring.com (George W. Harris) wrote:
>
>> What is an "RC shop"? The only thing I can think of is
>>a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
>>(such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
>
>Radio Control, I suspect. Which is a really *odd* thing to mix with
>gaming. . .
Fairly common. Think of it in terms of fringe hobbies -- I've
been to a lot of stores with RPGs, wargames, radio control stuff,
and dollhouse supplies.
--
Bryant Durrell (sysadmin, cynic, coyote) | "well, it seems doable so we should
dur...@innocence.com / dur...@bofh.net | do it. if we can't then we should
http://www.innocence.com/~durrell | get no biscuits." -- t...@meer.net
Rich Shipley
jay...@ktb.net wrote:
> Although I think that it is very tempting to order something from a
> mail-order place that advertises 20-30% or bigger discounts... I can't
> help but feel uneasy about it. If something seems to good to be true it
> usually is.
If I can help you feel less uneasy...
I discount at 25% for most items, and make enough to stay in business. I
don't charge until the items ordered are ready to ship. For checks, I
verify the items are in-stock before ginving the go-ahead to send
payment.
If you have a well-stocked local shop that provides space for gaming,
I'd recommend you patronize them. For many though (including myself)
there is no such place, so I try to offer good service and good prices.
Rich
--
Round Table Games - discount on-line game store - http://www.rtgames.com
Karen J. Cravens
>>Yes, and? If I didn't have Usenet, I wouldn't know *you*
>>existed. What does *that* prove? :}
>
>Correction, Karen, you knew that I existed before *either* of us were
>hooked up to Usenet. Granted we've never met FTF, but I was calling The
>Old Phoenyx *before* your last move.
I was on Usenet before that. The *Phoenyx* wasn't (technically,
the Phoenyx *still* isn't on Usenet, although since Southwind has
just picked up Sprint, which has this truly surreal policy on
newsgroups (they carry *everything*, and force downstream sites
to do the same, so that they can't be accused of censorship.
Excuse me, but it isn't censorship if a site says "Hey, I don't
*want* that group, okay?" "No, you *must* take it."), I could
create the phoenyx.* hierarchy to echo the mailing lists and
anybody with Sprint as a provider could pick it up... in fact
would have to, whether they wanted to or not, as I understand
it). But okay, I guess Red October counts.
>--Mike
>(Whose .sig has appearently offended someone's delicate sensibilities and
>therefore has been banished.)
I hate to say it, but it *was* pretty obnoxious at times, and not
preceded by the -- that lets a lot of gateways and mailreaders
know where it's safe to chop (I'll refrain from commenting on the
morons and newbies who post here in rgfm and *begin* their
message with a tearline). There have been a few times when I've
read a paragraph from you, gone (a) "What the HECK is he saying,
and (b) what does it have to do with the rest of the message"
before I realized that it was (a) someone else being quoted and
(b) a sigline.
And you forget, the Phoenyx is also a BBS... where taglines
longer than ONE LINE were considered unspeakably rude for a long
time. And what you, as a remote user, also don't see is that the
Phoenyx tacks an "origin" line onto the bottom of all
Internet-originated messages when they're displayed locally, and
that adds three or four lines (one or two blank, one tearline,
and one actual origin, which itself sometimes wraps when people
with long email addresses post) on top of everything else.
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Phoenyx Roleplaying Listserver - majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us
Home of baroque-L, Victorian Science PBeM RPG
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/pbemlist.html#baroque
Joseph Grace
In article <54nqkd$k...@news1.ni.net>,
Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>gha...@dur.mindspring.com (George W. Harris) wrote:
>
>> What is an "RC shop"? The only thing I can think of is
>>a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
>>(such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
>
>Radio Control, I suspect. Which is a really *odd* thing to mix with
>gaming. . .
Perhaps... but I was in one yesterday. The crossover (and the reason
for my visit) was paints. RC shops typically specialize in model and
diorama building (i.e., miniatures and painting). So, now you have
miniatures, and with a little extrapolation wargaming. RPGs are not
far off. This store has few rpg titles, but was definitely a boon
in the paints department. They're well stocked, excellent quality
supplies and selection, and I was finally able to get some advice
about painting from someone who does a lot of painting.
Of course, he then tried to sell me on Silent Death and historical
wargames (not in hard sell fashion, but just because that's what he's
into). It was cool to find a place with such selection and which
demos wargaming (in the indoor season, winter, anyway).
So, I guess RC and gaming is not as bizarre a hobby combination
as it may at first seem.
Cheers,
= Joe =
W. Nitsche
On Wed, 23 Oct 1996 jay...@ktb.net wrote:
> Although I think that it is very tempting to order something from a
> mail-order place that advertises 20-30% or bigger discounts... I can't
> help but feel uneasy about it. If something seems to good to be true it
> usually is.
I wouldn't feed too uneasy about it. Figuring that a game retailer gets a
discount of 42-47% off retail when purchasing from a distributor/
manufacturer, they CAN give a discount and still make a profit if sold in
volume. The whole concept of mail order assumes selling in higher volumes
than a local store, due to the more national/international customer base.
In fact, most of mailorder's customer base (besides the games market)
assumes discounted merchandise, and discounts at a certain level. When I
buy games mailorder, I expect a 20-30% discount as that's pretty standard.
When I buy art supplies, I expect a 35-60% discount, since that's the
standard of that industry. I WOULD be concerned of a mailorder store that
sold ABOVE the standard, say someone offering a 40% discount on game
supplies. Because distributors generally give a 42-47% discount, where is
the profit base?
There are discount mailorder stores that also have one or multiple retail
stores as well. These are the stores I shop, since they also have some
history (store that have been around for 5+ years). Wargames West didn't
have discounting except on very large orders, the last time I ordered from
them (though it's been a while, maybe it's changed). But they do have the
advantage of being a VERY large distributor that has been around for a
long time, so there is some security in that.
I've also bought supplies from Rider's, with good experience.
A temporally displaced Bill Nitsche (bnit...@u.washington.edu)
hobbit Oceanography, University of Washington
Karen J. Cravens
In article <326C2A...@ktb.net>, jay...@ktb.net wrote:
>It seems to me that you are a prime candidate for mail-order. There
>seems to be at least a small handfull of reliable mail-order game stores
Ah, but that brings us full circle round again, doesn't it? How
would I know what to mail order without Usenet?
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Keeper of the Phoenyx Play-by-Email Roleplaying Listserver
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/ majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us
David G. Bell
> In article <54nqkd$k...@news1.ni.net>,
> Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
> >gha...@dur.mindspring.com (George W. Harris) wrote:
> >
> >> What is an "RC shop"? The only thing I can think of is
> >>a store that specializes in Royal Crown Cola and related products
> >>(such as Moon Pies), but that can't be right.
> >
> >Radio Control, I suspect. Which is a really *odd* thing to mix with
> >gaming. . .
>
> Fairly common. Think of it in terms of fringe hobbies -- I've
> been to a lot of stores with RPGs, wargames, radio control stuff,
> and dollhouse supplies.
While rpgs don't _need_ miniatures, it is fairly easy to see how this
hangs together under the overall category of scale models. Though I
suppose that the UK has more emphasis in wargames on miniatures, rather
than hex-grids and counters.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..
jay...@ktb.net
Karen J. Cravens wrote:
>
> In article <326C2A...@ktb.net>, jay...@ktb.net wrote:
> >It seems to me that you are a prime candidate for mail-order. There
> >seems to be at least a small handfull of reliable mail-order game stores
> >around that you would do a lot better going that route.
>
> Ah, but that brings us full circle round again, doesn't it? How
> would I know what to mail order without Usenet?
Perhaps you could buy a game magazine. They generaly are good for
finding out about upcoming and recenrlt releases. You could also ask the
mail-order sales person.
Terry Austin
jgr...@netcom.com (Joseph Grace) wrote:
>So, I guess RC and gaming is not as bizarre a hobby combination
>as it may at first seem.
You're right, of course. I'm just spoiled by living in an area where
there's lot of money floating around, and lots of leisure time.
'Round here, if you want games, you go to a *game* shop. One of them
has a nice selection of darts, another is as well known for models as
games, and a third has a lot of family games (like Monopoly). But
right off hand, I can't think of a single *hobby* shop that carries
any rpg stuff at all. The crossover stuff, ya, like paints (I bought
all my paints at a train shop, cuz they had about 4 times the
selection), but not actual rpg products. They can't compete.
Carl Perkins
In article <Yd/by0C/k0YP...@southwind.net>, pho...@southwind.net (Karen J. Cravens) writes...
}In article <326C2A...@ktb.net>, jay...@ktb.net wrote:
}>It seems to me that you are a prime candidate for mail-order. There
}>seems to be at least a small handfull of reliable mail-order game stores
}>around that you would do a lot better going that route.
}
}Ah, but that brings us full circle round again, doesn't it? How
}would I know what to mail order without Usenet?
It's that little thing called a "catalog".
Now you'll ask "how do I get a catalog for a company that I don't know exists".
--- Carl
Bruce Baugh
In article <54n7m8$6...@login.freenet.columbus.oh.us>, kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin Mowery) wrote:
> The inverse is also true. Lots of games have been delayed, for
>whatever reason, and without good PR it aggravates me, the consumer.
I agree, and think that the game industry's general unwillingness to
discuss such problems ends up hurting more than it helps.
Say, for instance, that a company found itself being defrauded by one of
its suppliers along the way, so that money that was supposed to pay for
printing is instead a) lost to fraud, b) tied up meeting expenses of the
moment, and/or c) busy as legal fees. Clearly the company couldn't come
out and say "we're being screwed by X", not if they don't want to screw
over their trial chances later. (Propriety is of the essence here.) They
_could_ say "we've run into an unexpected complication nasty enough that
our lawyers are getting their exercise, and we've had to shift back our
schedule - instead of A, B, C, our priorities for release are going to
have to be B, D, and A, and we're looking at a delay of one or more
quarters; details as we have them".
Then they could indeed provide details as they have them and can release
them.
In less tricky circumstances, the company can say "we got delayed by
floods" or "my day job became extra demanding" or "the printer and we
had different ideas about our schedule; I don't know for sure who
screwed up but there's this delay", and follow it with revised schedule
info.
The point is to give customers a) some explanation and b) all the
information about changed schedules that can itself be deemed reliable.
Sketchy info is better than full-but-wrong info, I'd say.
Sigh. This is one of my pet hobby-horses.
--
Bruce Baugh <*> br...@kenosis.com <*> http://www.kenosis.com/bruce
See my Web pages for...
Daedalus Entertainment, makers of Feng Shui and Shadowfist
Christlib, the mailing list of Christian & libertarian ideas
New sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er
Karen J. Cravens
In article <26OCT199...@gerg.tamu.edu>,
That, and I don't like buying stuff sight unseen, and very few
catalogs say much about games.
Magazine ads aren't much better. If I believed magazine ads, I'd
be waiting faithfully in my game store for things like the latest
WotC Ars Magica supplement.
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Phoenyx Roleplaying Listserver - majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us
Home of westwind-L, Furry Swords & Sorcery PBeM RPG
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/westwind.html
Kevin Mowery
Bruce Baugh (br...@kenosis.com) wrote:
: In article <54n7m8$6...@login.freenet.columbus.oh.us>, kemo...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Kevin Mowery) wrote:
: > The inverse is also true. Lots of games have been delayed, for
: >whatever reason, and without good PR it aggravates me, the consumer.
: I agree, and think that the game industry's general unwillingness to
: discuss such problems ends up hurting more than it helps.
[examples snipped]
: The point is to give customers a) some explanation and b) all the
: information about changed schedules that can itself be deemed reliable.
: Sketchy info is better than full-but-wrong info, I'd say.
: Sigh. This is one of my pet hobby-horses.
Exactly. In the case of a perennially late game, I've heard lots
of stories of *why* it was late, from some fairly reputable sources, some
of them very nasty (the stories, not the sources). The official line is that
it's just taking a few years to make the game "just right".
While I don't necessarily believe the nasty rumors 100%, I find
the company's claim slightly silly. If it needed that much work, the
first release date was a dream sprung from a really big pipe. And
further, when it comes down to it, news from that company now gets frosted
with grains of salt. Maybe the next delayed product to be delayed really
is delayed for whatever reason they say, but maybe it's not, ya know?
: --
: Bruce Baugh <*> br...@kenosis.com <*> http://www.kenosis.com/bruce
: See my Web pages for...
: Daedalus Entertainment, makers of Feng Shui and Shadowfist
: Christlib, the mailing list of Christian & libertarian ideas
: New sf by S.M. Stirling and George Alec Effing er
J. McGuire
For what it's worth, my copy of the Traveller hardcover (ordered *way*
late) arrived in today's snail.
-- jmm
Wintertree Software
http://www.io.com/~wtsoft
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Joseph Steven Coleman
> > What is an "RC shop"?
> Remote Control... little toy vehicles to annoy people with when
Or Radio Control these days.
For local stores in San Francisco and Portland, you can check my stores
page. If anyone has a local page for their area, please let me know so we
can link back and forth. : )
http://users.aol.com/radiojoe5/stores96.html
--
PLUS 5.0 now available: http://users.aol.com/talewind/plus.html
Joe Coleman - Talewind Print & Production
radi...@aol.com tale...@hotmail.com radi...@pacbell.net
--------------------------------------------------------------
jay...@ktb.net
I've been toying with the idea of starting a web page devoted to online
game stores including not only links to them but ratings based on the
input of people who have dealt with them - perhaps a happy face for each
positive review and a skull for each negative.
What do y'all think? Would any of you be willing to contribute from your
personal experiences with these stores to help make this work?
- Jay
Karen J. Cravens
In article <jsc-261096...@h97-143.ccnet.com>,
j...@ccnet.com (Joseph Steven Coleman) wrote:
>> > What is an "RC shop"?
>
>> Remote Control... little toy vehicles to annoy people with when
>
>Or Radio Control these days.
Yup, that was what I meant, but I was asleep when I typed it.
Then enough other people said "radio" that I didn't think I
needed to correct it myself. But yeah, what you said.
--..............Karen Cravens .. pho...@southwind.net ...............
Keeper of the Phoenyx Play-by-Email Roleplaying Listserver
http://www2.southwind.net/~phoenyx/ majo...@phoenyx.wichita.ks.us