Winner of Dragon*Con tourny. READ!
Chad A. Cooper
head at Dragon*Con won this weekend. Convocation rules were being used
and legends were allowed. The two players were were even with a game a
piece. They were at a stalemate in the last game with both players
creatures holding the other off. The winner cast "falling star". This
card says something about letting the card go from at least a foot off
the table, any creatures it lands on are destroyed. This guy took the
card, and tore it up into little pieces. He then sprinkled the pieces of
the card over his opponents creatures. The judge stopped the match and
went to find the WoC people. They said that tearing the card up and
dropping it was perfectly legal ans that the other guys creatures were
indeed destroyed. The rest, as they say, is history. Pretty cool huh?
Chad Cooper
George Pratt
Now for the really evil twist. If the winner will save the pieces for
the card and in the next tournment use a Ring of Maruf to summon the
"falling star" he can use this trick over and over.
George
Christopher G. Wood
<Pratt_G...@Lilly.com> wrote:
> In article <30fed7$3...@panther.Gsu.EDU> Chad A. Cooper,
> >the table, any creatures it lands on are destroyed. This guy took the
> >card, and tore it up into little pieces. He then sprinkled the pieces
> of
> >the card over his opponents creatures. The judge stopped the match and
> >went to find the WoC people. They said that tearing the card up and
> >dropping it was perfectly legal ans that the other guys creatures were
> >indeed destroyed. The rest, as they say, is history. Pretty cool huh?
>
>
> Now for the really evil twist. If the winner will save the pieces for
> the card and in the next tournment use a Ring of Maruf to summon the
> "falling star" he can use this trick over and over.
>
Unfortunately, the Ring can only retrieve from the Sidebar and all the
cards there must be legal, e.g. not marked. I think that being torn into
bits counts as marked :).
Christopher
____ o
\ / Christopher Wood (Pittsburgh, PA) o o
\/ wood...@duq3.cc.duq.edu o o
Calvin: I wonder where we go when we die.
Hobbes: Pittsburgh
Calvin: You mean if we're good or if we're bad?
Andrew Brecher
But wait, doesn't Ring of Maruf specifically mention a "card"? I don't
think the leftover pieces qualify... |:^)
- Andrew Brecher (insert disclaimer here)
Nepolon Steve Lewis (Nepolon)
19 Jul 94 09:20, Pratt_G...@Lilly.com wrote to All:
>> creatures holding the other off. The winner cast "falling star". This
>> card says something about letting the card go from at least a foot off
>> the table, any creatures it lands on are destroyed. This guy took the
Actualy it does 3 points of damage to any creature it touches... but details
like that are irrelivant right? :)
>> card, and tore it up into little pieces. He then sprinkled the pieces
This was indeed a sick individual, but he did find a new use for the card.
:)
Smiley mode VERY FIRMLY in place and asbestos (SP) modem insulation double
thick for those hard of Herring.
>> the card over his opponents creatures. The judge stopped the match and
>> went to find the WoC people. They said that tearing the card up and
>> dropping it was perfectly legal ans that the other guys creatures were
As long as EVERY piece fliped at least 360 degrees, or else the spell fails...
I think this would have been QUITE hard to judge...
but they didn't ask me did they. :)
Steve
Brian Wilson
Sounds like cheese to me. I suppose the tourney prize was big enough to
offset the cost of one Falling Star (I wouldn't tear *mine* up), but if
I had lost to this ruling, I'd be pretty pissed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To succeed in the world it is not enough to be stupid, | a-Henh!
you must also be well mannered. | Brian Wilson
Voltaire |
Hernan 'Jackie' Macapanpan
with, doesn't he now have an illegal deck of 59 cards! ;-)
--
=============================================================================
Jackie Macapanpan (jac...@apple.com)
LAN Systems / Apple Computer, Inc.
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
=============================================================================
Kevin Brownell
>#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
>=============================================================================
Yeah, it's still legal...the card still exists (albeit in pieces) and can
be, with trouble, fit between two other cards in the deck. Just try and
shuffle, winner boy!
Kevin
Roberto Ullfig
Sounds like the player marked his card during play and should be disqualified
from the tournament.
--
Roberto Ullfig - ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov
GN6...@univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu
ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
>|> Sounds like cheese to me. I suppose the tourney prize was big enough to
>|> offset the cost of one Falling Star (I wouldn't tear *mine* up), but if
>|> I had lost to this ruling, I'd be pretty pissed.
>|>
>
>from the tournament.
>
>--
>Roberto Ullfig - ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov
So his card turned up in his hand. BIG DEAL!
So he played it. BIG DEAL!
You don't have a shred of evidence to say this ingenious player marked
his card! Jeez-us! I happen to this this guy was pretty smart. It's almost
as good as having your guardian beast in play so you can use your chaos
orb over and over without having to send it to the graveyard.
But to just assume he marked his card and should be disqualified is
just plain stupid.
Jerrod Bloodwulf
"But Braaaaaaaiiiin, what if the Prime Minister doesn't have a Gauntlet
of Might?"
"Then that will severely alter our plans"
christopher charles bickford
<GN6...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU> wrote:
>In article <310gc6$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>
>ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
>>|> offset the cost of one Falling Star (I wouldn't tear *mine* up), but if
>>|> I had lost to this ruling, I'd be pretty pissed.
>>|>
>>
>>from the tournament.
>>
>>--
>>Roberto Ullfig - ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov
>
>So his card turned up in his hand. BIG DEAL!
>So he played it. BIG DEAL!
>You don't have a shred of evidence to say this ingenious player marked
>his card! Jeez-us! I happen to this this guy was pretty smart. It's almost
>as good as having your guardian beast in play so you can use your chaos
>orb over and over without having to send it to the graveyard.
>But to just assume he marked his card and should be disqualified is
>just plain stupid.
I read that to mean that tearing a card into little pieces
is marking it.
Notice it said 'during play' not 'before'.
Although that was a rather nice leap you made.
>Jerrod Bloodwulf
>
>"But Braaaaaaaiiiin, what if the Prime Minister doesn't have a Gauntlet
>of Might?"
>"Then that will severely alter our plans"
--
Chris Bickford | This is more than Chemistry 101 man.
Cbic...@ucs.indiana.edu | - Tetsuo Shima
Jim Bennett
In article <16FFE9728...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU>, GN6...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU writes:
|>In article <310gc6$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>
|>ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
|>
|>>|> Sounds like cheese to me. I suppose the tourney prize was big enough to
|>>|> offset the cost of one Falling Star (I wouldn't tear *mine* up), but if
|>>|> I had lost to this ruling, I'd be pretty pissed.
|>>|>
|>>
|>>Sounds like the player marked his card during play and should be disqualified
|>>from the tournament.
|>>
|>>--
|>>Roberto Ullfig - ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov
|>
|>Where in the HELL do you get the idea he must have marked his card!!??!?!?!
|>So his card turned up in his hand. BIG DEAL!
|>So he played it. BIG DEAL!
I think this post was refering to the fact that he ripped up the card during
play, and that this "marked" the card (ie could be distinguished from other
cards). Sheesh, calm down...
Ohhhhhmmmmmmmmmm...
It's just a game...
It's just a game...
It's just a game...
Roberto Ullfig
Obviously, if he shreds a card he is marking it.
Tom Wylie
>>|> Sounds like cheese to me. I suppose the tourney prize was big enough to
>>|> offset the cost of one Falling Star (I wouldn't tear *mine* up), but if
>>|> I had lost to this ruling, I'd be pretty pissed.
>>Sounds like the player marked his card during play and should be disqualified
>>from the tournament.
>So his card turned up in his hand. BIG DEAL!
>So he played it. BIG DEAL!
I think the point was that the act of tearing it up caused it to
be marked ;) (key phrase "during play")
>It's almost
>as good as having your guardian beast in play so you can use your chaos
>orb over and over without having to send it to the graveyard.
Note that anything which destroys or discards itself at the time it is used
should be read as sacrificing itself, which is unpreventable, so the
Guardian Beast won't save the Orb from itself.
Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
aa...@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Roberto Ullfig
|>
|> Obviously, if he shreds a card he is marking it.
|>
...
I don't see how the judges could have allowed him to do this and not
disqualify him. Is this story *really* true?
Becca Haase
earlier ruling that the Chaos Orb could not be torn up and dropped. I
believe the whole story to be an amusing bit of "folklore".
But then again if WotC flip-flopped on a ruling, especially during the middle
of a tourney, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. (That is intended as
seriuosly as any statement about WotC can be)
Michael K Patterson
>In article <310pau$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
>|>
>|> Obviously, if he shreds a card he is marking it.
>|>
>...
>I don't see how the judges could have allowed him to do this and not
>disqualify him. Is this story *really* true?
I think that it woudl be ok as long as it doesn't bring his card total to
below 60, and he made sure it make it to the sideboard during the next game
(since otehrwise it would be marked)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael "Dirk The Daring" Patterson mi...@iastate.edu
MK/MK2 player: You can rate 'em, but don't restrict 'em! [Magic? what's that?]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roberto Ullfig
|> In <3110j4$3...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
|>
|> >In article <310pau$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
|>
|> >|>
|> >|> Obviously, if he shreds a card he is marking it.
|> >|>
|>
|> >...
|>
|> >I don't see how the judges could have allowed him to do this and not
|> >disqualify him. Is this story *really* true?
|>
|> (since otehrwise it would be marked)
|>
|>
|> --
|>
here...
A player should not be able to remove a card from his deck during a duel.
Nothing in the rules allows you to do this. By destroying the card he is
removing a card from his deck which could greatly effect the game especially
if the cards in the game include things like Word of Command, Feldon's Cane,
Timetwister, ... I can think of lots of cases where a player would want to
deliberately destroy a card so that it can't be used against him. Cards in
your deck are there to stay and cannot be removed during a duel.
Gator22277
I(being at Drgaon Con) was under the distinct impression Legends were not
allowed in tourney play. And though I heard ALLOT of stories did not hear
this one....
Michael Alexander
> In article <310gc6$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>
> ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
>
> >|> Sounds like cheese to me. I suppose the tourney prize was big enough to
> >|> offset the cost of one Falling Star (I wouldn't tear *mine* up), but if
> >|> I had lost to this ruling, I'd be pretty pissed.
> >|>
> >
> >Sounds like the player marked his card during play and should be disqualified
> >from the tournament.
> >
> >--
> >Roberto Ullfig - ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov
>
> Where in the HELL do you get the idea he must have marked his card!!??!?!?!
> So his card turned up in his hand. BIG DEAL!
> So he played it. BIG DEAL!
> You don't have a shred of evidence to say this ingenious player marked
> his card! Jeez-us! I happen to this this guy was pretty smart. It's almost
> as good as having your guardian beast in play so you can use your chaos
> orb over and over without having to send it to the graveyard.
> But to just assume he marked his card and should be disqualified is
> just plain stupid.
>
> Jerrod Bloodwulf
Chill out, Jerrod. He's saying that the act of terring up the card was effectively marking it - and that if the game had not ended immediately, he could have always known the exact location of that cart (or the fragments left over). Suppose that he had to play another game after that? What can he do? Obviously he can't use that card, obviously he can't sub another card in. I'd say disqualify him.
MikeA - mha...@vaxa.isc.rit.edu
Red Adept
GN6...@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU wrote:
>In article <310gc6$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>
>ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
>>Sounds like the player marked his card during play and should be disqualified
>>from the tournament.
>Where in the HELL do you get the idea he must have marked his card!!??!?!?!
He marked it during play by tearing it up, perhaps?
>You don't have a shred of evidence to say this ingenious player marked
>his card! Jeez-us! I happen to this this guy was pretty smart. It's almost
>as good as having your guardian beast in play so you can use your chaos
>orb over and over without having to send it to the graveyard.
er......a Guardian Beast won't save a Chaos Orb...the Orb's effect is
concidered a sacrifice and is unpreventable.
--Red
\--------/ /---------------------/-----------+-----------------------/
\ {} / / Red Adept / There is serenity in Chaos / |
\/ / Brent, Son of Fiona / Seek out the Eye of the Hurricane / |
/ Fugitive from Amber / Ewige Blumenkraft! Hail Eris!! /-----|
/---------------------/---------------------+-------------/
Gator22277
(Michael Alexander) writes:
The biggest Mgaic "story" from Dcon was somone who threw 200-300 cards
from a top(?) level at the hilton, onto the elevator(this i saw!) causing
serveral _____ to jump into the elvator shaft and truly upset hilton/Dcon
sercurity.
The Corinthian
>If he was allowed to tear up his card and use it then WotC went back on an
>earlier ruling that the Chaos Orb could not be torn up and dropped.
That's what I thought.
>I believe the whole story to be an amusing bit of "folklore".
No kidding. At first, I thought people were talking about some other
tournament at Dragon*Con(there were about 6 MTG tournaments). But now
I believe you people are referring to the main 64 player, single elimination,
Grand Slam tournament. Well, let me just lay that story to rest.
I won that tournament. I had no Falling Stars (or Chaos Orbs) in my
deck. And in any case, no Legends were allowed.
>But then again if WotC flip-flopped on a ruling, especially during the middle
>of a tourney, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. (That is intended as
>seriuosly as any statement about WotC can be)
There was this guy at the tournament that had 3 Chaos Orbs in his deck.
His opponent casted Steal Artifact on one of them, He responded by tapping
for a point of mana to sacrifice the Orb and use its effect. The judges
ruled that his opponent now has control of the (untapped and unused) Chaos
Orb. The use of the Chaos Orb effect was somehow "prevented".
Go figure.
Bin
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bin Chen | "I'm sure they'll listen to reason"
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu | -- Fisheye, _SnowCrash_
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darrell James Stogner
>I won that tournament. I had no Falling Stars (or Chaos Orbs) in my
>deck. And in any case, no Legends were allowed.
Luck...
--
Darrell Stogner
gt0...@prism.gatech.edu
David Kiker
|>
|> >In article <310pau$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
|>
|> >|>
|> >|> Obviously, if he shreds a card he is marking it.
|> >|>
|>
|> >...
|>
|> >I don't see how the judges could have allowed him to do this and not
|> >disqualify him. Is this story *really* true?
|>
That is a very interesting question. I was at Dragon CON and can not confirm
this story. I would be interested in knowing exactly which tournament this
occured in. The story implied it was the main "Grand Slam" tournament. This
was run by WotC (Steve Bishop head of the Duelist Convocation in fact. I think
I have his name right.)
The key hear is the LEGENDS cards were not allowed! So it did not happen there.
If it occured in another tournament people should know that they were all
run by Dragon CON and not WotC. (i.e. a WotC referee did not allow this).
David Kiker
k...@template.com
Chad A. Cooper
Organization: Georgia State University
Distribution:
David Kiker (k...@template.com) wrote:
: In article <mikep.7...@las1.iastate.edu>, mi...@iastate.edu (Michael K Patterson) writes:
: |> In <3110j4$3...@fnnews.fnal.gov> ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
: |>
: |> >In article <310pau$g...@fnnews.fnal.gov>, ull...@fnrobo.fnal.gov (Roberto Ullfig) writes:
: |>
: |> >|>
: |> >|> Obviously, if he shreds a card he is marking it.
: |> >|>
: |>
: |> >...
: |>
: |> >I don't see how the judges could have allowed him to do this and not
: |> >disqualify him. Is this story *really* true?
: |>
: That is a very interesting question. I was at Dragon CON and can not confirm
: this story. I would be interested in knowing exactly which tournament this
: occured in. The story implied it was the main "Grand Slam" tournament. This
: was run by WotC (Steve Bishop head of the Duelist Convocation in fact. I think
: I have his name right.)
: The key hear is the LEGENDS cards were not allowed! So it did not happen there.
: If it occured in another tournament people should know that they were all
: run by Dragon CON and not WotC. (i.e. a WotC referee did not allow this).
: David Kiker
: k...@template.com
Correct, My understanding however is that when the guy tore his card up,
the judges stopped the match and went and found a WoC person to make the
ruling. The onsite judges were NOT WoC however.
Chad Cooper
Tom Wylie
>There was this guy at the tournament that had 3 Chaos Orbs in his deck.
>His opponent casted Steal Artifact on one of them, He responded by tapping
>for a point of mana to sacrifice the Orb and use its effect. The judges
>ruled that his opponent now has control of the (untapped and unused) Chaos
>Orb. The use of the Chaos Orb effect was somehow "prevented".
>Go figure.
What? This is utterly bogus. Break it down:
1. Steal Artifact is cast at the Orb. Nothing happens yet.
2. Orb is activated (and therefore sacrificed), so goes to the graveyard.
Nothing happens yet.
3. No more fast effects.
4. Orb is pulled from the graveyard to be flipped, and then put back.
Deal with damage prevention, assuming it lands on anything.
5. Steal Artifact fizzles, since its target has disappeared.
I hope that wasn't a WotC ruling.
bi...@glossary1.mcl.bdm.com
> > >creatures holding the other off. The winner cast "falling star". This
> > >card says something about letting the card go from at least a foot off
> > >the table, any creatures it lands on are destroyed. This guy took the
> > >card, and tore it up into little pieces. He then sprinkled the pieces of
> > >the card over his opponents creatures. The judge stopped the match and
> > >went to find the WoC people. They said that tearing the card up and
> > >dropping it was perfectly legal ans that the other guys creatures were
> > >indeed destroyed. The rest, as they say, is history. Pretty cool huh?
Evil indeed. But I wonder if it really fits in with the rules.
Sprinkling the card bits doesn't seem to fit the wording of
"drop the card." If you put the pieces in your hand and dumped
them on your opponent's cards, I'd say OK. But sprinkling should
not count as one "drop."
-- Bill
bi...@glossary1.mcl.bdm.com
In article <30lavf$6...@beacon.dev.com>,
>
> >> the card over his opponents creatures. The judge stopped the match and
> >> went to find the WoC people. They said that tearing the card up and
> >> dropping it was perfectly legal ans that the other guys creatures were
>
> I think this would have been QUITE hard to judge...
> but they didn't ask me did they. :)
My guess was that since the use of the card was so clever, they
overlooked little things like making sure all pieces actually
turned 360 degrees or letting go of all the pieces at the same
time. Or that when the card is torn up, there is no "falling
star" to do any damage.
So, can I tear up any of my cards during play? The definition
of "your card" is any card under your control at the moment.
I'd love for my Old Man of the Sea to steal your creatures one
by one and tear them up.
How do I block a half a Craw Wurm anyway? Can my Wall
block both halves or do I have to tear up my Wall too?
Steve better get on the ball and write some more Convocation
rules about tearing up cards.
(Note: These last three paragraphs were written semi-
humorously.)
-- Bill
Jon Hughes
Remember, kids. Keep all pieces of your cards in little plastic bags,
and carry them with you to any game you play.
Then use the Ring of Maruf to get them from their "out-of-play" state
and into your hand. Just be sure to have the casting cost written
down somewhere.
(Tom, is this legit?)
Jon, the Cybertourist
Chris Darlaston
> rha...@herbie.unl.edu (Becca Haase) writes:
> >If he was allowed to tear up his card and use it then WotC went back on an
> >earlier ruling that the Chaos Orb could not be torn up and dropped.
>
> That's what I thought.
>
> >I believe the whole story to be an amusing bit of "folklore".
>
> No kidding. At first, I thought people were talking about some other
> tournament at Dragon*Con(there were about 6 MTG tournaments). But now
> I believe you people are referring to the main 64 player, single elimination,
> Grand Slam tournament. Well, let me just lay that story to rest.
>
> I won that tournament. I had no Falling Stars (or Chaos Orbs) in my
> deck. And in any case, no Legends were allowed.
>
...rest deleted...
Why not share with us, the people that could not get to the
tournament, what your winning deck consisted of. That way we will be
able to see what kind of deck came out on top this time.
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Chris Darlaston (cdar...@mcs.dundee.ac.uk)
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
--
#################
###############
#############
##########
#######
har...@ulogic.com
<bi...@glossary1.mcl.bdm.com> wrote:
>So, can I tear up any of my cards during play? The definition
>of "your card" is any card under your control at the moment.
>I'd love for my Old Man of the Sea to steal your creatures one
>by one and tear them up.
While the phrase "your card" in the rules text has been defined to
refer to the controller of the card, it has been made clear that
the owner of the card and the controller of the card may be different
people ... I am certain that the OWNER of the card would not appreciate
this little trick.
Besides, tearing up the card has *got* to count as marking it...
-rmh
Steven E Barnes
But did each piece rotate at least 360 degrees?
Pink Thing
> Why not share with us, the people that could not get to the
>tournament, what your winning deck consisted of. That way we will be
>able to see what kind of deck came out on top this time.
I wasn't at Dragoncon, but I was at Origins. The winner of the national
qualifier there played a 4 color deck with all multilands. He had all five
moxes and a lotus. Lots of big beasts, dark rituals, 4 mind twists. Richard
Garfield signed all of the cards in his deck. (this is all info I got from
my roomate, so might not be exact) Supposedly the winner of the no deck limit
king of the hill tourney played a deck with something like 30 black lotus and
40 wheels of fortune, I'm not sure about the exact number.
--
Dirk Walls<>di...@ecst.csuchico.edu<>Hey ho rock-n-roll, deliver me from nowhere
iscl...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
> That is a very interesting question. I was at Dragon CON and can not confirm
> this story. I would be interested in knowing exactly which tournament this
> occured in. The story implied it was the main "Grand Slam" tournament. This
> was run by WotC (Steve Bishop head of the Duelist Convocation in
> fact. I think I have his name right.)
>
> The key hear is the LEGENDS cards were not allowed! So it did not
> happen there.
>
> If it occured in another tournament people should know that they were all
> run by Dragon CON and not WotC. (i.e. a WotC referee did not allow this).
>
> David Kiker
> k...@template.com
--
I was at DragonCon, and at the Grand Slam tournament (and got
eliminated in the first round...sigh). I saw someone carrying around a
slim plastic box filled with pieces of a shredded chaos orb, so the
card was definitely there.
I'd imagine he would keep the shredded card as part of the sideboard,
and use a Ring of Ma'ruff to summon it into the game, which would
avoid the whole problem of how do you draw/shuffle into play such a
card.
Allan.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Allan T. Grohe, Jr. On-line/Industry Representative for
iscl...@falcon.cc.ukans.edu KUGAR (Kansas University Gamers
iscl...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu and Roleplayers)
"Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou."
- Michael Moorcock, _Stormbringer_
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT MCDONNELL
effectively marking it - and that if the game had not ended immediately, he
could have always known the exact location of that cart (or the fragments
left over). Suppose that he had to play another game after that? What can
he do? Obviously he can't use that card, obviously he can't sub another card
in. I'd say disqualify him.
>
> MikeA - mha...@vaxa.isc.rit.edu
>
would have made him get rid of the card from his deck with no substitution and
if he was playing a sixty card deck then I win!! There was a ruling on the
legality of this with chaos orb so it was a legal move but I would kindly
request that the tournament officials ask him/her to remove the card from their
deck and I would like thier cards counted.
RM
Tom Wylie
>Remember, kids. Keep all pieces of your cards in little plastic bags,
>and carry them with you to any game you play.
>Then use the Ring of Maruf to get them from their "out-of-play" state
>and into your hand. Just be sure to have the casting cost written
>down somewhere.
>(Tom, is this legit?)
No. You can't use a card that isn't intact.
Darrell James Stogner
>Jon Hughes <vap...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>>Remember, kids. Keep all pieces of your cards in little plastic bags,
>>and carry them with you to any game you play.
>>Then use the Ring of Maruf to get them from their "out-of-play" state
>>and into your hand. Just be sure to have the casting cost written
>>down somewhere.
>>(Tom, is this legit?)
>No. You can't use a card that isn't intact.
Well, this is why card sleeves and proxies should be allowed. That would
make everything nice and legal...
--
Darrell Stogner
gt0...@prism.gatech.edu
The ELF
> <iscl...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> wrote:
>>I was at DragonCon, and at the Grand Slam tournament (and got
>>eliminated in the first round...sigh). I saw someone carrying around a
>>slim plastic box filled with pieces of a shredded chaos orb, so the
>>card was definitely there.
>>I'd imagine he would keep the shredded card as part of the sideboard,
>>and use a Ring of Ma'ruff to summon it into the game, which would
>>avoid the whole problem of how do you draw/shuffle into play such a card.
>The card you get with the Ring goes into your hand, not directly into
>play, so using it to retrieve a shredded card would be extremely problematic.
>Besides which, I would say that if a card isn't intact, it's not a valid
>card for play.
Actually, this is a pretty good reason for not allowing proxies.
"All right, I bring out my chaos orb & flip it!"
"Huh?" opponent replies wittily as bits of card go everywhere.
"Sure its in pieces, but you can do that, right?"
Sad, sad, sad.
I'll go back to writing my guides...
--
=== The ELF === mbl...@mdw015.cc.monash.edu.au === The ELF ===
"The forest's green, in beautiful spring,
When all is good and all will be:
A marvel to behold! A marvel to behold!"
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <316c5v$j...@charnel.ecst.CSUChico.EDU>, <di...@ecst.csuchico.edu>
writes:
> Supposedly the winner of the no deck > limit
> king of the hill tourney played a deck with something like 30 black lotus and
> 40 wheels of fortune, I'm not sure about the exact number.
Hmm. I hope he had more than Loti and Wheels in there. Like
maybe a few Fireballs or Underworld Dreams. Otherwise, he'd
just be spinning his wheels! (I just couldn't resist that one)
-- Bill
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen
>What? This is utterly bogus. Break it down:
>1. Steal Artifact is cast at the Orb. Nothing happens yet.
>2. Orb is activated (and therefore sacrificed), so goes to the graveyard.
> Nothing happens yet.
As far as I remember, Chaos Orb never use the word sacrifice. The
'going to the graveyard' is a part of the 'effect'. I would agree
that it is a sacrifice, ie. something like:
1: flip orb and then sacrifice it and everything it touvhes.
(just to prevent the Orb/Guardian Beast combo.)
>3. No more fast effects.
>4. Orb is pulled from the graveyard to be flipped, and then put back.
> Deal with damage prevention, assuming it lands on anything.
>5. Steal Artifact fizzles, since its target has disappeared.
>I hope that wasn't a WotC ruling.
>Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
>aa...@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
--
Spot / l...@daimi.aau.dk
Triangle 3532 - The solution to your confuzion
GCS d p+ c++ l u+ e+ m- s !n h f g+ w+ t+(++) r(+) y+
Faith without Judgement merely degrades the Spirit Divine..
Tom Wylie
>I was at DragonCon, and at the Grand Slam tournament (and got
>eliminated in the first round...sigh). I saw someone carrying around a
>slim plastic box filled with pieces of a shredded chaos orb, so the
>card was definitely there.
>I'd imagine he would keep the shredded card as part of the sideboard,
>and use a Ring of Ma'ruff to summon it into the game, which would
>avoid the whole problem of how do you draw/shuffle into play such a card.
The card you get with the Ring goes into your hand, not directly into
play, so using it to retrieve a shredded card would be extremely problematic.
Besides which, I would say that if a card isn't intact, it's not a valid
card for play.
Electric Youth Renegade
[ripped Orb story]
> I was at DragonCon, and at the Grand Slam tournament (and got
> eliminated in the first round...sigh). I saw someone carrying around a
> slim plastic box filled with pieces of a shredded chaos orb, so the
> card was definitely there.
>
> I'd imagine he would keep the shredded card as part of the sideboard,
> and use a Ring of Ma'ruff to summon it into the game, which would
> avoid the whole problem of how do you draw/shuffle into play such a
> card.
I can see doing it ONCE. But no. He's got to be able to shuffle it into his
deck legally, or it's not in his deck...
Mike
har...@ulogic.com
that disallowing proxies was intended to address?
(Play a card) "This is a proxy for my chaos orb, let me get it..."
(Scatter shreeded orb over table)
-rmh
Electric Youth Renegade
> Considering It was the finals it was a good idea but you can be damn sure I
> would have made him get rid of the card from his deck with no substitution and
> if he was playing a sixty card deck then I win!! There was a ruling on the
> legality of this with chaos orb so it was a legal move but I would kindly
> request that the tournament officials ask him/her to remove the card from their
> deck and I would like thier cards counted.
>
> RM
One problem. For the purposes of that game, the card WAS in their deck, and
was "discarded" [quite literally] during play after this charade. Hmmm... I
think I would've allowed that "card" to be in the deck beforehand, but not for
future games...
Mike
Bill Seurer
|> Re: Torn up cards...
|>
|> Remember, kids. Keep all pieces of your cards in little plastic bags,
|> and carry them with you to any game you play.
|>
|> Then use the Ring of Maruf to get them from their "out-of-play" state
|> and into your hand. Just be sure to have the casting cost written
|> down somewhere.
If using marked cards is illegal then no 'cause the card is obviously
marked.
--
- Bill Seurer Language and Compiler Development IBM Rochester, MN
Business: BillS...@vnet.ibm.com Home: BillS...@aol.com
The Corinthian
#The Corinthian <gt6...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
#>There was this guy at the tournament that had 3 Chaos Orbs in his deck.
#>His opponent casted Steal Artifact on one of them, He responded by tapping
#>for a point of mana to sacrifice the Orb and use its effect. The judges
#>ruled that his opponent now has control of the (untapped and unused) Chaos
#>Orb. The use of the Chaos Orb effect was somehow "prevented".
#>Go figure.
#
#What? This is utterly bogus. Break it down:
#
#1. Steal Artifact is cast at the Orb. Nothing happens yet.
#2. Orb is activated (and therefore sacrificed), so goes to the graveyard.
# Nothing happens yet.
#3. No more fast effects.
#4. Orb is pulled from the graveyard to be flipped, and then put back.
# Deal with damage prevention, assuming it lands on anything.
#5. Steal Artifact fizzles, since its target has disappeared.
#
#I hope that wasn't a WotC ruling.
Unfortunately, it was.
I finished a match early and was hanging around the judges' table
when this decision was handed out. I thought the correct
interpretation would have been what you posted above but the judges
ruled otherwise.
Bin
Badger
Nahh, thats not the problem proxies address.
If that was the case, you'd have to disallow Ring of Maruff,
"I'll use the Ring to get my chaos orb from the sideboard and
summon it right away."
This problem should be addressed by something like -
All cards used in play must be complete cards, they cannot
be ripped/shredded/or otherwise mangeled. Cards cannot be
ripped/shredded/or otherwise mangeled during play.
D. J. McCarthy
> I saw someone carrying around a
> slim plastic box filled with pieces of a shredded chaos orb
Hmm, sounds like a good reason to carry around one of those
little battery-powered fans.
--
D. J. McCarthy (dmc...@gomez.intel.com) - speaking from, but never for, Intel.
...where you grow up in the open and you grow up mighty glad...
Bill Seurer
to someone willing to shred a Chaos Orb. That'd one less to worry about
later.
** I HATE CHAOS ORBS ** in case you couldn't guess.
Michael T. Belrose
make a big ring out of it. Is that legal?
PS: what about folding it into a paper airplane?
------------------------------------------------------------
The real weather is inside. mike.b...@travel.com
-Anonymous drmu...@crl.com
BARRY ROBB
: iscl...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
: > I saw someone carrying around a
: > slim plastic box filled with pieces of a shredded chaos orb
: Hmm, sounds like a good reason to carry around one of those
: little battery-powered fans.
or play outside in the wind...
á
The Corinthian
>
> Why not share with us, the people that could not get to the
>tournament, what your winning deck consisted of. That way we will be
>able to see what kind of deck came out on top this time.
>
Here it is:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Mind Twist
2 Animate Dead
2 Juzam Djinn
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Counterspell
4 Control Magic
4 Mahamoti Djinn
2 Clone
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Copy Artifact
1 Regrowth
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Juggernaut
4 Mana Vaults
1 Sol Ring
1 of every Mox
1 Black Lotus
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Diamond Valley
1 Island of Wak Wak
This deck had 45% mana producing cards. Basically, either Mind Twist
for a lot of cards on the first few turns or bring out the Juggernauts
or Juzam Djinns as soon as possible. It was not uncommon for me to
have 3-4 Creatures out by the end of the second turn.
After winning the tournament, all I can say is this: Mana Vaults are
AWESOME!! I know a lot of people don't like them, but they were
very, very useful in this deck. They gave me the extra mana to
cast that Juggernaut or Djinn or Control Magic very early in the
game. Sure I was taking 1 or 2 points of damage every turn, but
I was hitting home for 5 or 10. I can't believe Mana Vaults aren't
on the restricted list yet; all the other fast mana artifacts are.
The only deck that really gave me problems in the tourny was a
Blue/White permission deck. Another deck that gave me problems
was a Black deck with Phrexian Gremlins/Demonic Possesion/
Paralyse/Nettling Imp. But it was mono Black and had no way
of getting rid of my Control Magics.
Doug Le
So, how much did this deck cost you? And how much was the prize? Was it
worth it?
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Doug Le |TTTTTTT UU UU LL AAA NNN NN EEEEE
Computer Engineering | TT UU UU LL AA AA NN N NN EEE
Tulane University | TT UU UU LL AAAAAAA NN N NN EE
l...@rex.cs.tulane.edu | TT UUUU LLLLLL AA AA NN NNN EEEEE
----------------------For the land of the Free, and the home of the WAVE!!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the auto industry, when they make | In the Software Industry, when they
a mistake, it's call a RECALL, and | make a mistake, it's call an UPGRADE,
they have to pay for it. | and we have to pay for it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Darrell James Stogner
[description of tournament winning deck deleted]
>So, how much did this deck cost you? And how much was the prize? Was it
>worth it?
I can answer that for him. Not a whole lot. He is a very good trader. The
prize would not have been worth what it cost to buy each individual card and
then throw them all away after the tourney. However, he does indeed use these
cards at other times...
--
Darrell Stogner
gt0...@prism.gatech.edu
Craig O'Brian
D. J. McCarthy <dmc...@gomez.intel.com> wrote:
>iscl...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
>> I saw someone carrying around a
>> slim plastic box filled with pieces of a shredded chaos orb
>
> Hmm, sounds like a good reason to carry around one of those
>little battery-powered fans.
>
except that sort of thing isn't legal, neh?
-ichabod
please dont reply, email to ich...@lucifer.psyc.virginia.edu
Electric Youth Renegade
> So, how much did this deck cost you? And how much was the prize? Was it
> worth it?
>
games, forget it if you haven't spent >$100...
Mike
The Corinthian
>
>So, how much did this deck cost you? And how much was the prize? Was it
>worth it?
>
It didn't "cost" me anything. I started playing in February, when
Moxes and Lotuses were still available in boosters. Just because
their value has skyrocketed since then doesn't mean that I shelled
out 20 or 30 bucks for them. The cards that I needed for this
tournament that I did not have I borrowed from friends. If you think
I spent a few hundred bucks to "buy" this deck, then you are sadly
mistaken.
Paul Pantera
>In article <31k79t$6...@acmez.gatech.edu>,
[Great tourney-winning deck deleted.]
>
>So, how much did this deck cost you? And how much was the prize? Was it
>worth it?
This really pisses me off.
I'm sorry if you're jealous, but the fact is that there are a lot of people
out there that have a lot of out-of-print cards and they use them. Are they
rich and spent hundreds of dollars? Some are, but most of them just got into
the game earlier, and got lucky.
Please, if you have a cool deck, do not be embarassed to post it because some
weenie is going to rip on you. We all appreciate the ideas in these decks.
I print out each one and keep them, to use for ideas in building decks later.
Even though I don't have any Moxes, I can make due.
Geez. When the guy asked him to post the deck that won the tourney, did
you expect it to be all revised cards? This deck is about what I'd expect.
BTW now you know why Mind Twist has made the restricted list. Of the 8
semi-finalists in the Origins tourney last month, *7* played black-white.
All of them had 4 mind twists. (At least that's what I heard - I wasn't
there.) Also common: white knights, black knights, Savannah Lions.
-Paul
ObCombo: When someone plays a flashfires against your blue/white deck, or
acid rain against your blue/green deck, Sleight of Mind it to destroy one
of their own land types.
Craig O'Brian
The Corinthian <gt6...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>After winning the tournament, all I can say is this: Mana Vaults are
>AWESOME!! I know a lot of people don't like them, but they were
>very, very useful in this deck. They gave me the extra mana to
>cast that Juggernaut or Djinn or Control Magic very early in the
>game. Sure I was taking 1 or 2 points of damage every turn, but
>I was hitting home for 5 or 10. I can't believe Mana Vaults aren't
>on the restricted list yet; all the other fast mana artifacts are.
>
I think Mana Vaults are great too, but they just got a little weaker
with the new ruling on Vaults/Monoliths. My favorite way of getting
out of taking damage was to use one MV and one land to untap the
other MV. That way neither "remains tapped during upkeep" and you
don't take damage. Unfortunately, no longer legal.
-Ichabod
ich...@lucifer.psyc.virginia.edu
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <Ctxs8...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
<ich...@gozer.psyc.Virginia.EDU> writes:
> >> I saw someone carrying around a
> >> slim plastic box filled with pieces of a shredded chaos orb
> >
> > Hmm, sounds like a good reason to carry around one of those
> >little battery-powered fans.
> >
>
> except that sort of thing isn't legal, neh?
Is it? I posted an article a few months ago asking to what
extent people can go to to gaurd against Orbs. Can I use
little fans, acid-filled moats, or whirling razor blades
to make an opponent think twice about throwing that Orb
onto my side of the table? I got no answer. Tom?
I did once took a piece of wood and sawed some slots in it.
When I played against Orb decks, I stood all my cards upright
in the little slots. Orbs can't land on upright cards. I
don't use it much anymore. Could I use it at a tournament?
Other people use little placemats, why can't I use mine?
Tom?
-- Bill
Craig O'Brian
>
>Is it? I posted an article a few months ago asking to what
>extent people can go to to gaurd against Orbs. Can I use
>little fans, acid-filled moats, or whirling razor blades
>to make an opponent think twice about throwing that Orb
>onto my side of the table? I got no answer. Tom?
>
>I did once took a piece of wood and sawed some slots in it.
>When I played against Orb decks, I stood all my cards upright
>in the little slots. Orbs can't land on upright cards. I
>don't use it much anymore. Could I use it at a tournament?
>Other people use little placemats, why can't I use mine?
>Tom?
>
p. 221 of PPG:
Q: Choas Orb: can I blow on it?
A: No. You can't tickle the caster either.
I would assume this rules out fans and razor blades also. As for a
board with slots, it doesn't have to land on them, just touch them.
I've destroyed upright cards with an Orb before.
--------
Rev. Dr. Craig "Ichabod" O'Brien, DFS, KSC, POEE
Please do not reply to this post, send email to:
ich...@lucifer.psyc.virginia.edu
"Character izza what you are inna the dark!" -Lord John Worfin
RICHARD KENAN
: Many of the folks in
: my area use coins or dice to indicate counters on their cards.
Here, too.
I guess it's a popular way to put a zillion counters on your
Khabal Ghoul (dice, I mean).
: In one game, a player who wanted to play the Orb, demanded that
: the other player remove all the dice and counters from his
: playing area before he droped the Orb. The second player
: said he was prohibited from rearranging after the Orb was cast.
: The first player grumbled and dropped the Orb. Sure enough,
: the Orb came to rest balanced on a couple of the counters
: and did not actually touch any cards.
: So the questions are,
: 1. Do counters have to be removed when an Orb or falling Star
: is dropped?
: 2. If not, what if the Orb comes to rest on top of the
: counters?
In the recent rulings summary, it said that a Chaos Orb that
hit counters but not the cards they were on didn't destroy a
blessed thing. I would interpret this to mean that:
1. You don't have to remove the counters.
2. The Orb doesn't destroy cards it doesn't hit due to being
under counters.
There you have it. Give all your creatures 80 +0/+0 counters,
and you're save from Chaos Orb. Maybe a bit extreme, though.
The only guy I know who uses Chaos Orb usually hits his own
cards by accident.
: 3. And what about this Plexiglass box idea?
Beats the heck out of me.
Just me.
--
Richard Kenan
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!eefacdk
Internet: eef...@prism.gatech.edu
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <Cu0v...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
<ich...@gozer.psyc.Virginia.EDU> writes:
> p. 221 of PPG:
>
> Q: Choas Orb: can I blow on it?
> A: No. You can't tickle the caster either.
>
> I would assume this rules out fans and razor blades also. As for a
> board with slots, it doesn't have to land on them, just touch them.
> I've destroyed upright cards with an Orb before.
Then you are not playing the Orb correctly. Somewhere there was
a ruling that said that the Orb has to land on and stay on the
cards to destroy them. Cards that have been touched by a bouncing
Orb are not destroyed.
In any case, the fact that you can't blow on the Orb falls into
the same category as not being able to rearrange your cards AFTER
the Orb comes into play.
But, the fans and razor blades would be in place before the Orb
comes out. This is the same as placing your cards 6 inches from
each other.
I imply from this that you can do any anti-Orb tactics you want
BEFORE the Orb comes out but you can't do anything more AFTER it
comes out.
-- Bill
har...@ulogic.com
>Yes, certainly easier. But, back when sleeves were allowed, it
>was ruled (I don't remember if it was official or not) that any
>cards directly under the Orb UNDER protective covers were
>destroyed. So, the Orb could still destroy your cards in the
>box.
...
>The first player grumbled and dropped the Orb. Sure enough,
>the Orb came to rest balanced on a couple of the counters
>and did not actually touch any cards.
Seems to me the first situation answers the second. The
counters were forming a "protective cover", and by the first
ruling the Orb should be considered to be directly on the cards
that it was being suspended over by the counters.
-rmh
Bob Martino
I've got it now!!!!!!!
Make a whole bunch of little wooden bases with toothpicks sticking
up from them. They would liik like this:
! ! !
! ! !
------ ----- -----
Well, you get the idea. When you play, place several of them all
around your cards, on top of the cards, between the cards, etc.
Now, you have constructed the SDI of MtG!! Chaos Orbs No More!!!!
If you don't want to go to all the trouble, use those little plastic
three-legged table-looking things you sometimes get on your pizza when
you have it delivered. Stand them around as above. Even better, make
a plexiglass shield about 3'x3' square, standing on little 9" legs.
The orb must be dropped from 1', right? So deploy all your cards under
plexiglass shield.
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahahahahahahahahahah..haha..ha..ha....
*ahem*
sorry about that.
__________________________________________________________________________
-bob martino bmar...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
"It's all fun and games until someone loses a mox."
The Great Grendel-Khan
>1. Do counters have to be removed when an Orb or falling Star
> is dropped?
>2. If not, what if the Orb comes to rest on top of the
> counters?
>3. And what about this Plexiglass box idea?
Here's a novel idea...why not just ban a lame card that should have
never seen print?
Grendel "Why are you using blue sticky-tac to put all your cards on the
cieling?" Khan
--
The younger the child | arg...@iastate.edu
the better to eat. |<The Great Grendel-Khan>
The less the years | since '91
the better the meat. Poems for Cannibals vol. II
RICHARD KENAN
: > I would assume this rules out fans and razor blades also. As for a
: > board with slots, it doesn't have to land on them, just touch them.
: > I've destroyed upright cards with an Orb before.
: Then you are not playing the Orb correctly. Somewhere there was
: a ruling that said that the Orb has to land on and stay on the
: cards to destroy them. Cards that have been touched by a bouncing
: Orb are not destroyed.
If the Orb lands on the edges of several upright cards, all of them
are destroyed. If it lands leaning on an upright card, it is
destroyed. It is possible (albeit difficult) to kill upright cards
with a Chaos Orb.
: In any case, the fact that you can't blow on the Orb falls into
: the same category as not being able to rearrange your cards AFTER
: the Orb comes into play.
: But, the fans and razor blades would be in place before the Orb
: comes out. This is the same as placing your cards 6 inches from
: each other.
: I imply from this that you can do any anti-Orb tactics you want
: BEFORE the Orb comes out but you can't do anything more AFTER it
: comes out.
Sure, and if the other players let you have a running fan blowing
across the playing surface during a game, more power to you. But
*I* wouldn't let you, because I like to be able to FIND my cards
after a game. And you can't turn on the fan when the Orb comes
into play or is used, because you can't do stuff to it after it
comes into play, remember?
If you want to set up spinning razor blades over your cards and
risk your blood trying to play under them, that's your problem,
and I wouldn't object. But wouldn't it be easier to make a nine
inch high plexiglass box, open on the end nearest you, and play
under THAT? Same effect, except that the guy can use his Chaos
Orb again (like he's going to bother, with a box protecting you
from it), and you don't have to worry about accidental amputations.
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
> If the Orb lands on the edges of several upright cards, all of them
> are destroyed. If it lands leaning on an upright card, it is
> destroyed. It is possible (albeit difficult) to kill upright cards
> with a Chaos Orb.
True. When the Orb comes to rest, any cards it is touching is
detroyed. So, "leaners" can destroy. It seemed that the
orginal poster was saying any cards touched during the drop
were destroyed also.
> Sure, and if the other players let you have a running fan blowing
> across the playing surface during a game, more power to you.
Hmm. In a tournament situation, I don't know if you can demand
that another player not use fans or rotating razors. Just like
you can't demand that they play right-handed or that they have
to take off their hat while they play or that they not set drinks
on the table, or any other "style" of play.
> But
> *I* wouldn't let you, because I like to be able to FIND my cards
> after a game.
Well, the idea is to get four fans. Place them in a square
pattern around your cards and tilt them upward towards the
center. This creates the "Cone of Defense" and should not
blow any air on your cards.
> And you can't turn on the fan when the Orb comes
> into play or is used, because you can't do stuff to it after it
> comes into play, remember?
That is exactly true. The fans will be running the whole game.
Or at least whenever I suspect you might have an Orb in your
hand (Glasses of Urza is good for this).
> But wouldn't it be easier to make a nine
> inch high plexiglass box, open on the end nearest you, and play
> under THAT? Same effect, except that the guy can use his Chaos
> Orb again (like he's going to bother, with a box protecting you
> from it), and you don't have to worry about accidental amputations.
Yes, certainly easier. But, back when sleeves were allowed, it
was ruled (I don't remember if it was official or not) that any
cards directly under the Orb UNDER protective covers were
destroyed. So, the Orb could still destroy your cards in the
box.
This whole discussion reminds me of some real-life cases that
Tom and the rules team should address.
Many of the folks in
my area use coins or dice to indicate counters on their cards.
In one game, a player who wanted to play the Orb, demanded that
the other player remove all the dice and counters from his
playing area before he droped the Orb. The second player
said he was prohibited from rearranging after the Orb was cast.
The first player grumbled and dropped the Orb. Sure enough,
the Orb came to rest balanced on a couple of the counters
and did not actually touch any cards.
So the questions are,
1. Do counters have to be removed when an Orb or falling Star
is dropped?
2. If not, what if the Orb comes to rest on top of the
counters?
3. And what about this Plexiglass box idea?
-- Bill
Glen Pearce
>From: aa...@hal.COM (Tom Wylie)
>Subject: Re: DragonCon and the Chaos Orb
>Date: 5 Aug 1994 17:24:17 -0700
>Tom Wylie <aa...@hal.COM> wrote:
>>1. If they're counters put there by the game (Sengir Vampire, Clockwork
>Beast)
> ^^^^^^^
>AUUUUGGHHHH!!!! Someone shoot me, please.
>Tom Wylie rec.games.deckmaster Network Representative for
>aa...@hal.com Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
BANG!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glen Pearce | If there was a God,
He who was tricked into | Do you think he'd have let this happen?
Physics at UofW | Also, if there was Satan,
And can never leave. | Do you think he'd be envious of what we've done?
Tom Wylie
>Is it? I posted an article a few months ago asking to what
>extent people can go to to gaurd against Orbs. Can I use
>little fans, acid-filled moats, or whirling razor blades
>to make an opponent think twice about throwing that Orb
>onto my side of the table? I got no answer. Tom?
>
>I did once took a piece of wood and sawed some slots in it.
>When I played against Orb decks, I stood all my cards upright
>in the little slots. Orbs can't land on upright cards. I
>don't use it much anymore. Could I use it at a tournament?
>Other people use little placemats, why can't I use mine?
All of these go above and beyond the bounds of reasonable game play.
All of the cards should be flat on the tabletop, where everyone can see
them. Some stacking is probably ok, as long as the name of every card
can be seen by each player. You can probably make an argument for playing
with a fan, but moats and razor blades are ridiculous. The piece of wood
with the slots shouldn't be allowed, since however you're arranging the slots,
your cards won't be clearly visible by both players. "Placemats" are fine
because all they do is protect the cards from the surface of the table; they
don't interfere with how the cards are physically positioned. Stories about
people taping their cards to the wall during playtesting are cute and all,
but this sort of thing shouldn't be allowed in tournaments. If you want
to allow this sort of thing to go on in private play, that's up to you,
but it should be disallowed in tournaments on grounds of being disrupting
to the proceedings of the tournament.
Craig O'Brian
If you _infer_ that then blowing on it is fine as long as you were
blowing before the card came into play. This contradicts the PPG
which says you can't blow on it.
And no, I am not playing the Orb incorrectly. The ruling you are
refering to is in d'angelo's summary:
"Cards it touches" refers to cards it touches once it stops moving. [Snark]
As long as the orb touches the upright card when the orb stops
moving, the upright card is destroyed.
Bonnie Tygre
Just my .02 concerning the plexiglass... it seems to me that the rules
don't state from WHERE the Orb has to be cast... if it was me, I think
that I would have to throw the card from my opponent's side of the table...
that is the side on which the box is open...
Idea: some players lay the cards from their hand down on the table now
and again (face down of course)... could an Orb be played so that it landed
on their hand (since the might not be able to pick up the cards once
the play was initiated...) Seems an evil way to clear out your opponent's
hand... ... ...
Now if I could just remember where I put that Rack... ):>
Bonnie Tygre
Tom Wylie
>Hmm. In a tournament situation, I don't know if you can demand
>that another player not use fans or rotating razors. Just like
>you can't demand that they play right-handed or that they have
>to take off their hat while they play or that they not set drinks
>on the table, or any other "style" of play.
I think there's a big difference between playing right-handed vs.
left-handed, and playing with rotating razors vs. not. The latter
crosses the border between style of play and interfering with
play, and I wouldn't allow it. Fans are borderline.
>Many of the folks in
>my area use coins or dice to indicate counters on their cards.
>In one game, a player who wanted to play the Orb, demanded that
>the other player remove all the dice and counters from his
>playing area before he droped the Orb. The second player
>said he was prohibited from rearranging after the Orb was cast.
>The first player grumbled and dropped the Orb. Sure enough,
>the Orb came to rest balanced on a couple of the counters
>and did not actually touch any cards.
>So the questions are,
>1. Do counters have to be removed when an Orb or falling Star
> is dropped?
>2. If not, what if the Orb comes to rest on top of the
> counters?
>3. And what about this Plexiglass box idea?
1. If they're counters put there by the game (Sengir Vampire, Clockwork Beast)
then no. If you're one of those people using counters to mark
your cards as "tapped", those would have to be removed, and the
cards actually tapped to make sure we all remember which is which.
2. Then it's not touching a card.
3. All the plexiglass boxes described to me have crossed the line to
interfering with play, so would be disallowed.
Tom Wylie
>1. If they're counters put there by the game (Sengir Vampire, Clockwork Beast)
AUUUUGGHHHH!!!! Someone shoot me, please.
Brian Wilson
> Just my .02 concerning the plexiglass... it seems to me that the rules
> don't state from WHERE the Orb has to be cast... if it was me, I think
> that I would have to throw the card from my opponent's side of the table...
> that is the side on which the box is open...
The Chaos Orb says:
(1): Flip Chaos Orb onto the playing area from a height of at least one
foot. <there's more, but I hate to infringe on any copyrights>
Vertical positioning is specified, as well as the condition that the card
flip. Clearly the player must decide where best to drop it from to
destroy the desired cards. There are no rules specifying that the dropper
stay on their side of the table.
--
I am sorry I have not learned to play at cards. It is | a-Henh!
very useful in life: it generates kindness | Brian Wilson
and consolidates society. |
Samuel Johnson |
Tom Christiansen
:There you have it. Give all your creatures 80 +0/+0 counters,
:and you're save from Chaos Orb. Maybe a bit extreme, though.
:The only guy I know who uses Chaos Orb usually hits his own
:cards by accident.
I used to play Chaos Orbs a great deal, and am possibly even the person
to whom Bill was alluding. I found that folks became insanely upset
over them. The scream and pout and abuse you to no end just because you
MIGHT remove more than one card at a time.
In retribution for this disproportionate distress on their part, I now
just remove ALL their lands at once (hacked acid rain) them) or ALL their
creatures at once (touch-of-darkness plus cleanse, or sleight the cleanse).
I wonder when they're going to ask for the Orbs back instead. :-)
--tom
AutoSponge
: lpost it up as a comparison. Not til then though, as other players will
: be reading this! (that's quite enough of a hint, Steve!)
Try adding 4 stasis, 4 Black Vise, 4 Resets, and extra mana, with just a
few creatures and a few Power Sinks... after about 4 turns it can't be
beat (oh yeah, add 4 howling mines if you've got 'em and a Time Twister).
It's very nasty, I had to dismantle it after my friends complained to much
about not being able to cast anything after turn 4 that wasn't going to be
countered anyway... sore loosers (hehe)
Later
AutoSponge
Badger
Rosen K. Rans <bas...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>Forget what the loser said about "how much did your deck cost [you weenie
>cardlord nolifer magic player who spends thousands of dollars a week on
>cards]?"
>
Interesting. How do you manage to consider yourself ethical
and yet lie like that? The original "lose" as you call him
asked how much the deck cost and if it was worth it. No judgement was
made on this being bad or good. Go back and RTFP and you will see this.
YOU jumped to conclusions and got all defensive and huffy.
Obviously you feel that spending lots of money on a deck is wrong
or you wouldn't be acting like such a jerk to defend it.
Then you quote the person and insert your own thoughts and claim they
are someone elses. Perhaps I should just call you SPUTNIK since that
is a favorite tactic of his.
>Good job on building the deck, and congrats on your victory!
>
To the person who won, congrats, since I don't remember seeing any
overly defensive and lying posts from you in response.
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <31ul4o$3...@perv.hal.COM>, <aa...@hal.COM> writes:
> 3. All the plexiglass boxes described to me have crossed the line to
> interfering with play, so would be disallowed.
Which specific Convocation Rule is a Plexiglass box violating?
It'd be a real stretch of the rules to say it violates the
Sleeve rule or the "Below the table" rule. The only one that
vaguely applies is the "Tournament Director can do as He/She
Pleases" rule.
-- Bill
Craig O'Brian
in the rules summaries bethmo is listed as saying that an orb touching
only a counter is not touching the card, but that card sleeves count
as the card for purposes of the orb.
If you played a plexiglass cover against me, I'd summon the orb, activate
it, thrown your plexiglass across the room, and toss the card while
you were running off to get it. Nothing in the rules against that :)
-------------------
Craig O'Brian
The Great Grendel-Khan <arg...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
>Here's a novel idea...why not just ban a lame card that should have
>never seen print?
>
Fine, show me one. Not the Chaos Orb, certainly. I've never seen an
argument against the Chaos Orb that I couldn't refute.
Rosen K. Rans
cardlord nolifer magic player who spends thousands of dollars a week on
cards]?"
Good job on building the deck, and congrats on your victory!
I built a deck several days ago based on some similar concepts...
however, whereas yours was a mint twist/permission/quick critters deck,
mine was mt/permission/landkiller. Now that mind twist is limited I've
revised it a bit, and if it does well in the tourney next weekend I'l
lpost it up as a comparison. Not til then though, as other players will
be reading this! (that's quite enough of a hint, Steve!)
Heads.
Tom Christiansen
: This is getting ridiculous.
: Use your brain, be a good sport, and _STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN_
: Mommy! Mommy! His Chaos Orb landed on my cards! That's not FAIR!!!
: Sheesh! Give me a break!
AMEN!!!!!!!!
Jeff Coon
>In article <2FAR...@math.fu-berlin.de>, <bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov> wrote:
>>
>>In article <Cu0v...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
>><ich...@gozer.psyc.Virginia.EDU> writes:
>>
>>> p. 221 of PPG:
>>>
>>> Q: Choas Orb: can I blow on it?
>>> A: No. You can't tickle the caster either.
>>>
>>> I would assume this rules out fans and razor blades also. As for a
>>> board with slots, it doesn't have to land on them, just touch them.
>>> I've destroyed upright cards with an Orb before.
>>
>>Then you are not playing the Orb correctly. Somewhere there was
>>a ruling that said that the Orb has to land on and stay on the
>>cards to destroy them. Cards that have been touched by a bouncing
>>Orb are not destroyed.
>>
>>comes out. This is the same as placing your cards 6 inches from
>>each other.
>>
>>I imply from this that you can do any anti-Orb tactics you want
>>BEFORE the Orb comes out but you can't do anything more AFTER it
>>comes out.
>>
>
>If you _infer_ that then blowing on it is fine as long as you were
>blowing before the card came into play. This contradicts the PPG
>which says you can't blow on it.
>
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will you people please STOP with the Chaos Orb stuff already?
You're ruining a perfectly good card. Look, there is nothing wrong
with the chaos orb. If it's abused, like many people do with other
cards, rule it out of your personal games.
What is the problem with a game in which you have to make it sound
like a game of Calvinball?
*LOOK* at the stupid questions you're asking...
Can I blow on it?
Can I use a fan?
Can I tickle the user as they are using it?
NO! And you can't tape the ends together into a cylinder, roll it
across all your opponents cards and claimed that it "touched" all of
them, as the card states it should. Don't rearrange your cards after
the Orb is brought into play, and don't take *STUPID* measures to tape
your cards on the celing, or stick a rotating razor blade or a
plexiglass box over all your cards.
This is getting ridiculous.
The card is intended to destroy any cards it lands on. If it lands on
the counter of the card, WHO CARES? You know the way the card is
supposed to be used.
Use your brain, be a good sport, and _STOP ACTING LIKE CHILDREN_
Mommy! Mommy! His Chaos Orb landed on my cards! That's not FAIR!!!
Sheesh! Give me a break!
I apologize for singling out anyone by quoting this message. I don't
mean you in particular. I just wanted to point out how CHILDISH these
questions were.
I hope I haven't gone to far and offended anyone.
Jeff
Co...@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <Cu3MI...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
<ich...@gozer.psyc.Virginia.EDU> writes:
> If you played a plexiglass cover against me, I'd summon the orb, activate
> it, thrown your plexiglass across the room, and toss the card while
> you were running off to get it. Nothing in the rules against that :)
But then, just as you drop the card, I'd grab the table and yank it two
feet towards me so that the Orb lands on your side of the table (if
the table is still upright, of course). There's no rule against that
either (Note that I am not rearranging my cards).
Of course we are getting a bit silly here. But, on a serious note,
I've yet to see any official positions as to what kind of outrageous
things you can and can't do when an Orb comes out (except the bit
about blowing on it ).
-- Bill
Joe Cochran
What is it with you people?!? Why is the Chaos Orb such a stick
in your craw?!? In any normal game, the most it'll take out is four
cards, IF it lands properly. I can do that with a Cleanse, Balance,
Wrath of God, Armageddon, etc, etc, etc, but I don't see you harping
on those cards.
It's a FUN card. It's meant to be CUTE. It adds a different dynamic
to the game, but it's NOT THAT POWERFUL.
LIVE WITH IT.
*--Joe--*
js...@vt.edu
Mark J. Dulcey
Why is the Chaos Orb such a pain? Because the best defense against
it is to be a space hog, which makes the mechanics of playing the
game more of a nuisance, and which makes you very unpopular in a
Magic-club situation.
Michael K Patterson
Actually, the reason I don't like it is because for the cost of a mere 3
colorless mana, you can effectively destroy at least one of your opponent's
cards, of ANY TYPE. Terror, etc, may only destroy one card, but it's of a
specific type. The only other card in the game that has the capability of
the chaos orb (and is better, since you don't have to muck with throwing)
is "Desert twister", which has a more appropriate casting cost.
Anyone who thinks that CHaos orbs aren't a pain needs to see a deck built
around four of them (the archeologist/chaos orb deck comes to mind). With
AQ, particularly (hmm. nochaos orbs yet? I guess I'l just transmute artifact..
).
The fact that it has to be thrown doesn't make much diffrence. ONe of my
friends in the area has gotten good enough with the Orb to hit any target
they want.
Yse, the card is unique, neat, and cool. But that doesn't stop it from being
way too powerful.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael "Dirk The Daring" Patterson mi...@iastate.edu
MK/MK2 player: You can rate 'em, but don't restrict 'em! [Magic? what's that?]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craig O'Brian
Michael K Patterson <mi...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>In <7762850...@pryder.pn.com> mdu...@pryder.pn.com (Mark J. Dulcey) writes:
>
>Actually, the reason I don't like it is because for the cost of a mere 3
>colorless mana, you can effectively destroy at least one of your opponent's
>cards, of ANY TYPE. Terror, etc, may only destroy one card, but it's of a
>specific type. The only other card in the game that has the capability of
>the chaos orb (and is better, since you don't have to muck with throwing)
>is "Desert twister", which has a more appropriate casting cost.
>Yse, the card is unique, neat, and cool. But that doesn't stop it from being
>way too powerful.
>
It's not way too powerful. As opposed to 2 to destroy almost any creature,
2 to destroy any artifact, 2 to destroy any land. Or 3 to destroy all land
or 3 to destroy all creatures. With the chance of destroying something you
dont want to, or nothing at all.
And yes Ive seen decks built around 4 of them. I've got one. It looses
pretty regularly, but it's fun to play.
Tom Wylie
>> 3. All the plexiglass boxes described to me have crossed the line to
>> interfering with play, so would be disallowed.
>Which specific Convocation Rule is a Plexiglass box violating?
It's violating a common sense rule, not a Convocation rule. Presumably
the person running a tournament is not going to want anything going on
disruptive to the play of the tournament in general, or even a specific
match. A plexiglass box is almost certain to be distracting and/or
disruptive, so is a really good candidate for being disallowed.
A good rule of thumb to "can I do this to get around the Orb?" questions
is that if you wouldn't consider doing that if the Orb didn't exist, it
probably shouldn't be allowed. Would you seriously (or even facetiously)
be asking about plexiglass boxes if the Orb didn't exist? Maybe you would,
but I tend to doubt it.
>It'd be a real stretch of the rules to say it violates the
>Sleeve rule or the "Below the table" rule. The only one that
>vaguely applies is the "Tournament Director can do as He/She
>Pleases" rule.
It doesn't violate either of those rules. It violates the unwritten
"give us a break" rule.
bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov
In article <32672m$o...@perv.hal.COM>, <aa...@hal.COM> writes:
> A good rule of thumb to "can I do this to get around the Orb?" questions
> is that if you wouldn't consider doing that if the Orb didn't exist, it
> probably shouldn't be allowed.
Odd. Can I infer from this that spreading your cards all over the
table should not be allowed? Some people do this when they think
an Orb is coming. They "wouldn't consider doing that if the Orb
didn't exist." Therefore, this practice must be disallowed. Or
am I missing something?
-- Bill
Silenn
>It's not way too powerful. As opposed to 2 to destroy almost any
creature,
>2 to destroy any artifact, 2 to destroy any land. Or 3 to destroy all
land
>or 3 to destroy all creatures. With the chance of destroying something
you
>dont want to, or nothing at all.
I disagree. Chaos orb is an artifact and can go in any deck for one.
I can also hit any card I want 90% of the time and I never hit my own
cards. I don't think an offical tourny was meant to be a test of agility.
I prefer it over Desert Twister as you only need two mana to use the Orb.
Wrath of God and Armegedon definitely hit your own cards, and all the
other mentioned cards have great limits as to what they can target.
I'm going to Gencon with four Orbs in my deck (and of course
regrowth,timetwister,feldon's cane, and recall), so I'm gald there's seems
to be so many people that won't mind being pounded on by orb after orb. I
just play to win when it comes to tourny's. There's no room for fun and
cute. I think the card should be restricted if not banned and should never
be alllowed to be ripped up (at least one piece won't go 360).
Tom Wylie
>> A good rule of thumb to "can I do this to get around the Orb?" questions
>> is that if you wouldn't consider doing that if the Orb didn't exist, it
>> probably shouldn't be allowed.
>Odd. Can I infer from this that spreading your cards all over the
>table should not be allowed? Some people do this when they think
>an Orb is coming. They "wouldn't consider doing that if the Orb
>didn't exist." Therefore, this practice must be disallowed. Or
>am I missing something?
As long as their cards are within easy arm's reach, it doesn't strike me
as a problem. If you have to start getting up and walking around to get
to all your cards, that's bad (at least in a two-player game).
Craig O'Brian
>In article <32ER...@math.fu-berlin.de>, bi...@its.bldrdoc.gov writes:
>
>>It's not way too powerful. As opposed to 2 to destroy almost any
>creature,
>>2 to destroy any artifact, 2 to destroy any land. Or 3 to destroy all
>land
>>or 3 to destroy all creatures. With the chance of destroying something
>you
>>dont want to, or nothing at all.
>
> I disagree. Chaos orb is an artifact and can go in any deck for one.
>I can also hit any card I want 90% of the time and I never hit my own
>cards. I don't think an offical tourny was meant to be a test of agility
Well, you aren't really arguing against my point. My point is thaat
if you compare the cost to that of specific destruction cards it is
balanced. As far as agility goes it barely takes any. I have never
known a person who tried to use a chaos orb with a little practice and
couldn't hit what they wanted most of the time.
.
> I prefer it over Desert Twister as you only need two mana to use the Orb.
> Wrath of God and Armegedon definitely hit your own cards, and all the
>other mentioned cards have great limits as to what they can target.
> I'm going to Gencon with four Orbs in my deck (and of course
>regrowth,timetwister,feldon's cane, and recall), so I'm gald there's seems
>to be so many people that won't mind being pounded on by orb after orb. I
>just play to win when it comes to tourny's. There's no room for fun and
>cute. I think the card should be restricted if not banned and should never
>be alllowed to be ripped up (at least one piece won't go 360).
>
Check the latest tourney rules, it is restricted.
James Dusek
Patterson) wrote:
> In <7762850...@pryder.pn.com> mdu...@pryder.pn.com (Mark J. Dulcey) writes:
>
> >In article <323283$s...@solaris.cc.vt.edu> js...@megavolt.cc.vt.edu writes:
> >>It's a FUN card. It's meant to be CUTE. It adds a different dynamic
> >>to the game, but it's NOT THAT POWERFUL.
> >>
> >>LIVE WITH IT.
> AQ, particularly (hmm. nochaos orbs yet? I guess I'l just transmute artifact..
> ).
Hey, I'll have to add this to my archeologist/rocket launcher deck! :)
> The fact that it has to be thrown doesn't make much diffrence. ONe of my
> friends in the area has gotten good enough with the Orb to hit any target
> they want.
So? People can play long enough to get really good at magic, should we put
limits on how long people can play? Some people play others, should we
handicapp the better players? IF you pratice enough, you can shuffle the
deck and "force" the player to cut where you want the deck to be cut,
therefore all your powercards can come out first (NEVER play Penn and
Teller at magic!) shall we make rules on deck shuffling and have a policing
committie to make shure noone cheats?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
| James Dusek | If the Goverment prints the money, |
| Motorola CSC | why is it always broke? |
| Rolling Meadows,Il | |
|du...@cadsun.corp.mot.com | |
--------------------------------------------------------------------
David Rogers
? >never seen print?
?
? Fine, show me one. Not the Chaos Orb, certainly. I've never seen an
? argument against the Chaos Orb that I couldn't refute.
How about this one? Let skill with card play decide the game, not skill in
throwing cards. Or put it another way.
I'm lazy, because I work hard all week. I wanna sit on my ass and play
Magic. I don't wanna run all over the room across tables or across the
spread of a large table tapping and handling my cards because you insist on
playing with a Chaos Orb. I like to play with my cards stacked up tight so
I can reach everything and play fast.
The card is cheese all the way and I won't play against it; not because I
necessarily fear that I'll loose to it, but because it takes all of my fun
outta the game.
DER
* JABBER v1.1 * Hey! I read that module, it only had 1 ... oops...
Silenn
(James Dusek) writes
>So? People can play long enough to get really good at magic, should we
put
>limits on how long people can play? Some people play others, should we
>handicapp the better players?
What if you are not an agile person. Now there is a cool powerful card
that others can use to great effect that you can not because of you
physical traits. I could just see a parapaligic in a wheelchair doing a
steal artifact on your Orb just to keep it from you who can't stand to
throw it from high enough much lest really throw it at all. How about a
card you can cast unless your ugly ( have the ten nearest people vote ).
Or a card that says, armwrestle target player,loser takes ten damage ( a
red spell of course ).
On your own anythings fine, at a tourny it should be a mental battle.
Tom Maertz
Ichabod
>
>What if you are not an agile person. Now there is a cool powerful card
>that others can use to great effect that you can not because of you
>physical traits. I could just see a parapaligic in a wheelchair doing a
>steal artifact on your Orb just to keep it from you who can't stand to
>throw it from high enough much lest really throw it at all. How about a
As I've posted before, it doesn't take much if any agility to use the orb.
I'm not agile at all and I use one just fine. An hour of honest practice
and anyone can use it. As for people in wheelchairs or with other
disabilities, have a friend throw it for them. I've played such people
before, and they needed a friend to draw cards and tap cards, etc. They
did all the planning and their friend moved the cards. Just have them
say which card to aim for and they have as much control over the card
as anyone else.