Daggerfall is better
Lost Dragon
>Lost has dragons tripping out of their trees - Fallible & F-15 are
Tee-hee. =]
And as for the general comment that Bug-n-fall is even remotely similar in
quality or playability to Ultima, I don't feel that a response is needed
since the statement (nay, the mere thought) is ludicrous.
/| .oo__. .-----.----------Lost-Dragon-----------.-----. .__oo. |\
| \| ,-'' | _O_ | lost...@cris.com | _O_ | ``-, |/ |
`,_/,(_)\_ | | | Member: Ultima Dragons | | | _/(_),\_,'
_.,-=(_)_)_ ''`-----`-http://www.cris.com/~lostdrgn/-'-----'`` _(_(_)=-,._
hel...@worldaccess.nl
>>One final analogy (always do things in threes :). ) Daggerfall is the
>>probably the most RPG-like CFRPG yet, in a AD&D sense. Ultima is more like
>>interactive fiction, in a White Wolf Storyteller sense.
>
>This is totally false. First of all, how a pen and paper game is played
>is toally depended upon the DM and the players. I can totally munchkin
>through Vampire while evoking emotions from my players in an AD&D game.
>secondly, DF is nothing like or even close to a pen and paper game. Its
>but a hack and slash fest. There are endless dungeons to hack through.
>Yeah, there's this main story, but its about as interesting as reading
>the Wall Street Journal in a Carribean vacation.
>
>-=UDIC=-
>Led Mirage Dragon
>
Hey! Some Caribbean people actually read the Wall Street Journal...
(I'm not one of them, thankfully.)
.=UDIC=.
Caribbean Dragon
***************************************************
Email: hel...@worldaccess.nl
Member of UDIC, Caribbean Dragon.
*******************************************************
Eager Dragon
To me it makes no difference how good this program is. It uses first
person view and I completely dislike each and every game that uses
this perspective.
Love to hear about games that use the same perspective as
U7!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eager Dragon
-------------------------
noone <b...@jhe.edu> wrote:
>Many people (especially the Ultima Dargoons) have said that Daggerfall
>"sucks", "is balsphemoulsy" or "a travesty". Well, i like many other
>people thimk it is a great game and far superior to the Ultima
>games in many respects. The only reason the Ultima games were
>good was because of the NPC interaction and plot-line. Well, the
http://www.ultranet.com/~boriqua/
http://www.mnsinc.com/griffink/ckmain.html
Ben
Eager Dragon wrote:
>
> To me it makes no difference how good this program is. It uses first
> person view and I completely dislike each and every game that uses
> this perspective.
I am just curious- could you explain exactly why you feel this way. This
is not a flame, and I have seen a few other people make similar
sentiments. My personal opinions are that a) RPGs should seek to provide
the most immersive experience possible, and that b) since we experience
Real Life (TM) from the first-person perspective (barring any sort of
astral projection ;) ), that this is a natural choice for an interface
in a roleplaying game. That is not to say that any CRPG which does not
use FPP is bad- just that FPP feels, by definition, more "real." To me,
third-person perpective imparts more of a strategy/arcadish feel. This
is not inherently bad (and good CRPGs are good regardless of their
interface, for the most part)- it just is not the sort of RPG experience
I usually look for.
I would be interested in hearing why people who do *prefer* third-person
perpective do so.
(as a side note, the "immersion factor" is why I prefer single-character
CRPGs to multi-character ones... controlling the actions of a single
alternate persona seems more like roleplaying, whereas controlling the
actions of a group of characters feels more like a squad-level strategy
game- just not my cup of soup)
Regards,
Benjamin E. Sones
feld...@sprynet.com
Kenneth Edward Whitten
noone wrote:
>
> Many people (especially the Ultima Dargoons) have said that Daggerfall ^^^^^^^^
Will someone tell this person how to spell DRAGONS correctly?
(That's dee-are-ay-gee-oh-en-ess... got it?)
-Lumina Dragon
Ben La Count
Lord Marcus Dracon wrote:
>
> Dracons are demi-dragonian humanoids. They are fairly
> large, stocky, scaled creatures with tough, armored
> hides and tremendous strength. Their hands and feet
> are clawed.
>
> Dracons are more like walking tanks than anything
> else, being resistant to heat,flames,cold,high
> altitude and almost anything else. They can swim
> well,they can hold their breath for a long time and
> can therefore navigate small bodies of water by
> walking across the bottom. Dracons tend to live in
> volcanic caves where the air is warm. They are
> typically intelligent creatures preferring themselves
> and their hordes/minions for company.
>
> Because of their draconian heritage, a dracon will
> almost certainly be able to breathe something nasty,
> either acid, fire, poison, or something equally
> unpleasant. Typically, as a dracon ages and improves
> physically, this ability also improves in both
> strength and endurance.
And they make darn good boots and armor too! Not to mention a ready and
easily accessable source for even humans and elves.
--
Lord Simeron Steelhammer
High Lord of Mithral Hall
Defender of Castle Steelhammer
Proud Commander of the Mithral Warhammers
Ben La Count
He spelled it correctly for those he was referring to...*8')>
DRAGOONS....
Richard Congdon
Winkler Devere Bond wrote:
>
> In <01bbc959$086c2cc0$0dd40181@cimbrog> "Chad Imbrogno"
> <cim...@bgnet.bgsu.edu> writes:
>
> >BTW, this is your calm before the storm of flames appear. Expect
> Ranzer
> >references.
> >
>
> I'm going to save this entire thread for posterity.....
>
> -Ophidian Dragon
Yes, save it. As for me, I think that U9 will be quite similar to
Daggerdud. My guess is that it will be what DF wanted to be; it will
have a better plot, better graphics, etc. Like DF, it will be too big
to really explore fully.
---
Richard
William Geiger
SNIPY A DOO DA
Well Daggerfall is just to big to play again unless you really want to.
Plus
theres all those bugs. CHaracter adavancement is slow I spend more
time training then adventuring.
As for replay. It boils down to saving just before you get the Totem
then
going back to that save and choosing a different person to give it to
after
you finish the first time. I for one am not gonna play all the way
through
again just to give it to another person. If I do replay, it will be to
adjust my character into one thats more efficent since I made some
mistakes witht he one that I'm using now.
Cinnabon Dragom
GSkip
In <327C48...@jhe.edu> noone <b...@jhe.edu> writes:
> (People only
>replay it because they have no lives otherwise).
I feel that people who assume their lives are THE coolest have little
to assume with.
As Ogre pointed out, you are comparing oranges and grapefruit. Ultima
requires thought, imagination and some moral judgement calls - TES is
more hands on - the thinking has been done for you.(With a huge amount
of restraint, I'll avoid drawing the obvious conclusion)
>I am not saying that the Ultima games were bad, just that Daggerfall
>is better.
(A) You are comparing one game with a series - which makes comparison
difficult.
(B) I think it speaks highly of Ultima, considering its age, that you
are making the comparison - and I think it is unfair to the producers
of TES. They created a different CRPG that fills a different set of
needs.
(C) Again, you are confusing personal preferrences with quality - if
you like it, its good etc.(I say "again", because if you are not
Ranzer, you're the next best thing)
Disoriented Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
Graeme Lennon
> > Third-Person Perspective, which allows you to look out upon the action
> > in much the same way as most novels -- from that of an semi-omniscient
> > onlooker, who has control over the way his characters react, but don't
> > pretend to be reacting yourself. It provides a more narrative feel.
> > One last thing: Multi-Character FPP is the stupidest thing I have ever
> > heard of. It was the only fault I could find (other than the lack of a
> > sequel) in Betrayal at Krondor, one of the best RPGs ever. Ultimas
> > included, sorry guys. ;)
>
> Actually, I LIKE controlling a party of characters!
I don't MIND it, I was just expressing a personal preference, as are
you. Nothing wrong with parties -- it's just that I've found that the more
characters you have, the less you get connected to any of them.
With certain exceptions, of course -- say, for instance, the Ultima
series. ;) Or the Final Fantasy series.
> First of all, I LOVE tactics. Strategy, too, but tactics
> especially. Any real-time combat system effectively negates the
> tactical aspect of the game, BTW, and I do not like that much;
> a single-person CRPG is the same.
So do I. My copy of Jagged Alliance is wearing a little ragged (if
something that has a permanent home on my hard drive CAN wear ragged), and
I am a long-time Warhammer (all varieties) player. However, I do not
believe that real-time combat eliminates tactics. Quite the opposite in
fact: having time limit makes it more difficult, but it sharpens your mind
and mental reflexes. Remember, tactics are supposed to be small-unit -- if
you can't respond at a small-unit pace, then you're useless. (I am also a
C&C master... ;>).
Even Quake has tactics. A new patch I found, called TeamFortress, adds
an amazing amount of tactical opportunities to the games. To tempt your
palette, it gives you CHARACTER CLASSES, for quake. ;)
If you (or anyone else) are interested, check out the homepage at
http://minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU/~cookj/, and email me about it. I am still
looking for more players -- the more the merrier. ;)
> I like both 1st- and 3rd-person perspectives in and of
> themselves; when I control a party of characters, I have no problem
> 'roleplaying' the entire group -- not each individual character,
> mind you, but the group as a whole.
I couldn't agree more. It is exactly this idea of "playing the group"
that I was trying to suggest. Instead of role-playing the individual, you
play and gain an attachment to the group as a whole -- much like reading
a book (in my mind), hence my metaphor.
> I can understand other being partial to one or the other;
> myself, I prefer to enjoy both approaches -- after all, it is the
> quality of the game that counts!!! (A prime example: Wizardry
> Nemesis looks SWEET, but the game SUCKS!!! It is almost like King's
> Quest, not Wizardry; it is 3D, yet completely pathetic)
No!!! Haven't played it yet, but my friend just got it, and I was
looking forward to borrowing it from him. Oh well... I shouldn't be
surprised, really. There hasn't been an RPG released that I've really
enjoyed in a long time -- not since the above mentioned Betrayal at
Krondor, actually.
Ah well. UO should satisfy all our wildest dreams. I hope. I pray. ;)
> o
> //
> O-==(UDIC)==-HXXXXXXXX>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=-
> \\
> o
^^^^^^^^^ *LIKE* the sig....
_
|*| Moongate Dragon -==) -UDIC -(==-
Graeme Lennon
> I am just curious- could you explain exactly why you feel this way. This
> is not a flame, and I have seen a few other people make similar
> sentiments. My personal opinions are that a) RPGs should seek to provide
> the most immersive experience possible, and that b) since we experience
[ slice n' dice ]
> (as a side note, the "immersion factor" is why I prefer single-character
> CRPGs to multi-character ones... controlling the actions of a single
> alternate persona seems more like roleplaying, whereas controlling the
> actions of a group of characters feels more like a squad-level strategy
> game- just not my cup of soup)
Personally, I have never been able to get the same feeling, the feeling
of BEING the character, from CRPGs that I have from Pen and Paper
varieties. The barrier of the computer screen and the lack of direct
interpersonal relations have always been too much of an obstacle to my
suspension of disbelief. Instead, I choose to regard them as books. We've
all heard of the much-toted idea of interactive movies, well, I have
always regarded CRPGs as interactive books. And we all know that a good
book has far more depth than any movie. ;)
The reasons for this are simple: It is the character interaction and the
storyline that pull us along in these games. There is no way that the
programmers could ever put in enough options to make a CRPG come even
close to offering all of the various options that are open to a Real
Person (TM) <g>. Therefore, the story and characters, while there is some
choice and discretion exercised by the player, must generally grow and
progress along a set path. Much more like a book, then like truly playing
a role.
Note: This doesn't lessen my enjoyment of RPGing in any way whatsoever.
I love books. Books rock. ;)
First-Person Perspective tries to help me feel like I *am* the
character, which is a waste of time because, due to programming limits, I
can never *be* the character. As such, it just gets in the way. Thus I
prefer:
Third-Person Perspective, which allows you to look out upon the action
in much the same way as most novels -- from that of an semi-omniscient
onlooker, who has control over the way his characters react, but don't
pretend to be reacting yourself. It provides a more narrative feel.
One last thing: Multi-Character FPP is the stupidest thing I have ever
heard of. It was the only fault I could find (other than the lack of a
sequel) in Betrayal at Krondor, one of the best RPGs ever. Ultimas
included, sorry guys. ;)
_
|*| Moongate Dragon -==)-UDIC-(==-
cchicago
Well, I never played Daggerfall, but Arena sure did suck.
-CHaiNSaW Dragon
Victor
Graeme Lennon wrote:
>
> > (as a side note, the "immersion factor" is why I prefer single-character
> > CRPGs to multi-character ones... controlling the actions of a single
> > alternate persona seems more like roleplaying, whereas controlling the
> > actions of a group of characters feels more like a squad-level strategy
> > game- just not my cup of soup)
>
> in much the same way as most novels -- from that of an semi-omniscient
> onlooker, who has control over the way his characters react, but don't
> pretend to be reacting yourself. It provides a more narrative feel.
> One last thing: Multi-Character FPP is the stupidest thing I have ever
> heard of. It was the only fault I could find (other than the lack of a
> sequel) in Betrayal at Krondor, one of the best RPGs ever. Ultimas
> included, sorry guys. ;)
Actually, I LIKE controlling a party of characters!
First of all, I LOVE tactics. Strategy, too, but tactics
especially. Any real-time combat system effectively negates the
tactical aspect of the game, BTW, and I do not like that much;
a single-person CRPG is the same.
I like both 1st- and 3rd-person perspectives in and of
themselves; when I control a party of characters, I have no problem
'roleplaying' the entire group -- not each individual character,
mind you, but the group as a whole.
I can understand other being partial to one or the other;
myself, I prefer to enjoy both approaches -- after all, it is the
quality of the game that counts!!! (A prime example: Wizardry
Nemesis looks SWEET, but the game SUCKS!!! It is almost like King's
Quest, not Wizardry; it is 3D, yet completely pathetic)
--
Daermonestroer Dragon (min...@ix.netcom.com)
(dani...@cs.umass.edu)
Yama
ara...@spu.edu (Michael Mullins) wrote:
>To each his own I suppose. I sold Daggerfall within two days, for
>several reasons:
>
>[ snip of elegant rationale]
>
Damn! I really wish you'd tried for 4 days instead of 2. Anyone,
~anyone~, who can visualize:
>townships ever known to RPG's. They each have a sort of theme that
>endears you to them, Trinsic and it's small compactness... emphasizing
>honor, Vesper and it's sparkling oasis, Buccanear's Den and it's shady
>playfulness, and Britain and it's huge stately majesty.
would have added greatly to the DF discussions (*sigh of regret*).
I enjoyed most of the Ultimas, and only started losing interest when
the arcade aspects increased (along with the "I'm hungry. Feed me.")
The Underworlds are among my favorites of all time. But DaggerFall
will probably surpass them - at least for me. Of course with UO
coming...
The storyline in DaggerFall is fairly intricate, so it does not
become apparent for quite awhile. In addition, the events involved
start off as a mystery (part of your job is to discover them). Not a
bad approach, but its danger is that people may lose interest before
becoming immersed in the game.
The story itself is immersive, and the varied reactions of
characters in different Guilds, provinces, political alliances, races,
etc. adds to the realism.
Having already tried it for 2 days, it seems unlikely to be a good
match for you. Nonetheless, let me try and argue the point. Maybe
you'll "see the light", or someone else may give it a shot and be an
adequate replacement for you <grin>.
>1. my disbelief was not suspended. I found that the people
>walking around and those standing still had no differing personality.
Truly they do, but only with a few thousand characters. Out of the
hundreds of thousands, it takes awhile before you notice. Most
characters are simply programmed from a pool of replies, which as you
pointed out is a bore. Still, having run into a character that is a
staunch supporter of say WayRest Royalty - if you later need help with
a quest for that faction, he will tend to help you. People you've
helped out before are more likely to help you in return.
> 2. The personal character did not have any emotional or moral
>development in a theatrical way. Though Daggerfall does have
>alignment dovetailed with different guilds, I don't find anything that
>would give me reason to pay attention to it like I would a good book
>or movie.
All of the interaction (even the "random pool" NPCs) is based on
Guild reputation, Province rep, individual charisma with the (scholar,
commoner, underworld, royalty, etc) they are talking to, along with
the inter-racial alliances and feuds. Many of these are subtle, but
they are pretty well merged into the game play.
For example, if you are hunting for someone in a given city, and
the most polite response you get is "I despise your kind - go away." -
then some additional thought is required. If you have a streetwise
character, then you search out a prostitute in an Inn somewhere, talk
to her using slang (blunt mode) - and you are more likely to get
answers.
While this may or may not make the game more enjoyable for you
(sometimes it's a pain) - the level of detail in NPC interaction is
well above other games, IMO.
> 3. The items didn't have any 'character'. something just
>seemed incredibly flat to me, they did have purposes but nothing one
>would covet and hoard like in Ultima or other RPG's. Yes, a daedric
>knife is nice but it still seems sort of 'ho hum' to me.
It's not surprising you didn't run into any special items in 2
days. Bethesda's hoping people will play the game for months. Although
some of the "special items" are generated by the random pool process,
even this can add to the game. There was a thread in CSIPGR about
"Embarrassing Items" - with LoinCloth of Toxic Cloud (phew!), Bra of
Undeniable Access, etc.
The truly "special" items are artifacts, which require difficult
quests granted by Daedra (and the chance to request a Daedra quest
cost over 100K). It's usually several weeks before these can even be
attempted, let alone acquired.
> 4. The dungeons and towns could have been the same for all I
>cared. There were a lot of them and the dungeons did have an
>atmosphere that scared the snot out of me but THEY WERE ALL THE SAME
>THING. Nothing stood out and said, 'I am this town and it has these
>advantages, trade, and culture.' Ultima has the most colorful
>townships ever known to RPG's. They each have a sort of theme that
>endears you to them, Trinsic and it's small compactness... emphasizing
>honor, Vesper and it's sparkling oasis, Buccanear's Den and it's shady
>playfulness, and Britain and it's huge stately majesty.
>
Errr... I'm not going to compete with this one. I don't think
DaggerFall can either.
> 5. I enjoyed the possibility of making new spells, but the
>names and looks simply ran together. There were hundreds with odd
>names that I would not care to purchase. I would go blind trying to
>discern them.
This part of your post I couldn't follow. If you're making your
own spell, you call it whatever you want, make it look like whatever
you want, and make as many (or few) as you want. Like I say, I missed
the boat here.
> Anyhow, these are the reasons I don't like Daggerfall. Still
>I see the points about it's wonderful openendedness and the
>possibilities never ending in the game. It is just that I need to see
>a plot enveloping me when I am playing. The characters should be
>dynamic in ways that make you think the 'stats' don't exist. The
>game, to me, should make me think that everything is real and I am in
>a world, Daggerfall didn't fulfill that for me... oh well. The final
>verdict is that both series have their specialties. Daggerfall was
>made with replay and breadth in mind. Ultima was made with story and
>depth in mind.
>
>
> Bedwyr Dragon
There are a number of things which do cost the game some immersive
quality. First and foremost, are the bugs. A game that crashes yanks
you out of the environment far too harshly for one to recover easily
from. Bethesda has addressed a lot of this, but introduced a less
fatal flaw. The BLANK flaw. Apparently in the correction of other
problems, the find-n-replace algorithm for many messages died. Getting
a message like. "I am forever indebted to you BLANK for saving my
daughter" Again, not as bad as a crash, but it does ruin the immersion
(unless I start a new character named BLANK)
Or a person I've performed several Quests for, asks me to protect
him from Assassins. Having done this, the next day he greets me with
"Yama, nice job you did fetching that bracelet back." Yeah - what
about your life I just saved jerk!
Multi-player (originally planned for DF) would have (could have)
eliminated most of the immersion complaints. If MP would have only
cost an additional year - they should have waited.
Oh well, I hope the most immersive game will be UO. Hopefully the
people playing won't be as non-sequiter as NPCs often are.
Yama
Led Mirage
In article <01bbc959$086c2cc0$0dd40181@cimbrog>,
Chad Imbrogno <cim...@bgnet.bgsu.edu> wrote:
>down to a matter of opinion. While the scale and complexity in Daggerfall
Eye candy. No substance in that "scale and complexity" at all.
>
>completely different. Daggerfall is complex and _very_ involved, full of
Very tedious is more appropriate.
>little details and endless possibilities. Ultima is much more primal,
"Endless possibilities", you mean whether you'll ever get out of a DF
dungeon? Those corridors sure look pretty "endless".
>sacrificing freedom of action for a powerful story that touches a little
>deeper into people's souls.
What good is "freedom of action" if its ultimately totally shallow and
unsatisfying. Besides, the environment in DF is totally non-interactive,
and the NPCs are all brain dead.
Led Mirage
In article <327D3A...@concentric.net>,
Daggeryawn = more Arena with cosmetic improvements
-=UDIC=-
Led Mirage Dragon
Led Mirage
In article <327D13...@tiac.com>, Richard Congdon <con...@tiac.com> wrote:
>Winkler Devere Bond wrote:
>
>Yes, save it. As for me, I think that U9 will be quite similar to
>Daggerdud. My guess is that it will be what DF wanted to be; it will
>have a better plot, better graphics, etc. Like DF, it will be too big
>to really explore fully.
I doubt it will be the case. From what Garriott had said to date (and
others from the U9 design team from various sources), there is strong
indication that U9 will be quite heavy in the "story" factor. Garriott
had emphasised the "scope of the plot". U9 would probably be more like
the U7 saga (all U7s combined). And even now, I think its sacrilege to
even mention it in the same sentence with Daggeryawn.
KROMHOUT D.M.
>your own spell's, and items; your dynamic reputation with different
>people, guild's, nobles, and states, character generation, development
>and advancement (one the COOL parts), etc.
>I am not saying that the Ultima games were bad, just that Daggerfall
>is better.
just some things:
1. spell system has too many spells
2. first person is... ehm... well, I don't like on anything other than
Underworld! It's weird but true.
3. daggerfall has no Ultima history. You know where you meet someone and he
says "Remember me from when you were struggling to become the Avatar?!" And
it's not gonna get anything like that becasue it's way and way and way to big.
4. Nice, that you can play on forever but I like a story that ends so I can
stop playing and get on with my life. You won't believe how much time goes
into wandering around Brittannia... just thinking about Daggerfall makes my
diary disintegrate!
5. there basically is no story: it's too much based on fighting. I feel that
Ultima is an adventure with RPG elements while Dagger is an RPG with
adventure-elements. It's like Diablo: too much fighting.
ok, enough. Back to Serpent Isle!
Kimono Dragon -==(UDIC)==-
Sayonara
Kimono (D.M.Kr...@kub.nl)
"Truth, love and humor form the triangle on which life travels"
(Kimono)
slink
"Chad Imbrogno" <cim...@bgnet.bgsu.edu> wrote:
<much snipping>
>This _is_ an Ultima dedicated newsgroup, so there's obviously going to be
>some prejudice in Ultima's favor. :) Rember that in what is about to
>come...
I appreciate the balance in your viewpoint. I starting playing the
Ultima series back in the early 80's on the Atari, and followed it up
through about Ultima V on the IBM PC. I haven't played it lately, so
I can't comment and don't. However, I don't understand why "rpg"
automatically means "Ultima".
Sandra
William Geiger
dra...@loom.net.au (Lord Marcus Dracon) wrote:
>
>Unless they are the new super gene altered Dracons they snack on
>elves, humans and trolls
>
OH MY GOD!! THE TROLL HAS MIGRATED HERE!!!!
>
Ignore this loser people. He's just like Ranzor Troll hmmm...Maybe we
can have lots of fun bashing him!
Marcus Troll enters the Cinnabon Bara swinging His maces "I am blunt
I don't like Ultima or Daggeryawn, I don't care what other people think"
WHACK WHACK WHACK
DLRapp
In article <55hi2p$e...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>, dev...@ix.netcom.com(Winkler Devere Bond) says:
>In <327C48...@jhe.edu> noone <b...@jhe.edu> writes:
>>(People only replay it because they have no lives otherwise).
>I'm sure you're glad you used a fake address right about now. I'm not
>going to bother arguing with you since, in all likelyhood, you were
>picking for a fight, and have no interest in a real debate. But I must
>say, the only person that has no life is YOU, in that you were posting
>an inflamatory message soley to get a response. And you suceeded. I
>hope you're happy.....
>-Ophidian Dragon
A bit sensitive, aren't you? I thought his post was very well reasoned
and presented in a fairly even-handed manner. I'm not a Daggerfall fan;
but did find his rationale well done. He had the one somewhat
inflammatory statement. Of course, that's all you chose to focus on and
save for your response. Relax and reread the WHOLE post again.
Darin Johnson
> The storyline in DaggerFall is fairly intricate, so it does not
>become apparent for quite awhile. In addition, the events involved
>start off as a mystery (part of your job is to discover them). Not a
>bad approach, but its danger is that people may lose interest before
>becoming immersed in the game.
The thing I find frustrating, is that the plot doesn't get going for
a long mount of time, game-wise. I'm not much into it yet, but
I would imagine it would take a couple years of game time. Heck,
I even had to wait before the Emperor's agent contacted me (and even
then I got very little info). It's annoying to take the quest seriously
(as opposed to completely ignoring the emperor and doing your own thing)
and get hampered by having to do unrelated side quests while waiting
for someone to leave you a letter.
> The story itself is immersive, and the varied reactions of
>characters in different Guilds, provinces, political alliances, races,
>etc. adds to the realism.
I'm mostly ignoring this stuff. It's too much to keep track of, and
unrealistic at times (ie, the rivalry between the mages guild that the
generic knights guild), and involves too much talking to cardboard
cutouts.
>>1. my disbelief was not suspended. I found that the people
>>walking around and those standing still had no differing personality.
>
> Truly they do, but only with a few thousand characters. Out of the
>hundreds of thousands, it takes awhile before you notice.
Unfortunately, those hundreds of thousands of cardboard cutouts
include guild leaders and heads of state! If the king of daggerfall
can't even hold a decent converation, I'm not about to question every
single passerby.
> For example, if you are hunting for someone in a given city, and
>the most polite response you get is "I despise your kind - go away." -
>then some additional thought is required.
Like just retrying and getting an answer the second time :-)
Heck, even my guild leader said that to me the first time...
Or most likely, just talk to the second guy you meet, then the third
and so forth. If your rep isn't rock bottom, it's not hard.
--
Darin Johnson
da...@connectnet.com
Sharon Mock
In article <D.M.Kromhout...@kub.nl>, D.M.Kr...@kub.nl
(KROMHOUT D.M.) wrote:
> 5. there basically is no story: it's too much based on fighting. I feel that
> Ultima is an adventure with RPG elements while Dagger is an RPG with
> adventure-elements. It's like Diablo: too much fighting.
I have yet to try this, and I am the first to admit that it would be
tedious and difficult to play Daggerfall this way (not to mention
requiring foreknowledge about the storyline) -- but I believe it is
theoretically possible to beat Daggerfall without ever killing a single
creature.
-- Sharon
BlackMage Dragon
I decided to do such, when I saw "expect Ranzer references" very
interesting so far...
--
BlackMage Dragon
-===UDIC===-
Guild of the Rune Weavers
Winkler Devere Bond <dev...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<55hgns$p...@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>...
Dima
I dont think it's possible What about Sentinel Quest where you have to
kill a lich, but DF is a great game anyway (I like the killing part:) )
--
Dima, Scribe of Sumurset Isle
Yama
sl...@netins.net (slink) wrote:
>"Chad Imbrogno" <cim...@bgnet.bgsu.edu> wrote:
>>This _is_ an Ultima dedicated newsgroup, so there's obviously going to be
>>some prejudice in Ultima's favor. :) Rember that in what is about to
>>come...
>
>I appreciate the balance in your viewpoint. I starting playing the
>Ultima series back in the early 80's on the Atari, and followed it up
>through about Ultima V on the IBM PC. I haven't played it lately, so
>I can't comment and don't. However, I don't understand why "rpg"
>automatically means "Ultima".
>
>Sandra
>
>
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg and rec.games.computer.ultima-dragons. I
guess he was just monitoring the Ultima NG and assumed it was a single
group post.
Yama
Konstantin Yu. Boyandin
noone wrote:
>
> Many people (especially the Ultima Dargoons) have said that Daggerfall
> "sucks", "is balsphemoulsy" or "a travesty". Well, i like many other
> [...]
> does affect how you go through the game. Other reasons Daggerfall is
> better than the Ultima's are : better magick system, ability to create
> your own spell's, and items; your dynamic reputation with different
> people, guild's, nobles, and states, character generation, development
> and advancement (one the COOL parts), etc.
> I am not saying that the Ultima games were bad, just that Daggerfall
> is better.
Ghm.
Personally, I like many types of RP games (and, should I have more
time, will continue to develop my own), but I would never understand
people that like to start/continue flame wars.
Judging by the contents of this article, it is a flamebait.
A proposal: if you (who are you, "noone"?) wish to discuss good and
bad aspects of RPG, Ultima included, do it in a decent way. I am always
grateful if a person wants a discussion.
Otherwise, your letter is no good and no bad tham naughty children's
"revenge" against "bad grown-ups"... It's time to get to senses, isn't
it?
All the best,
Konstantin.
--
Konstantin Yurievich Boyandin
WWW home page: http://www.cnit.nsu.ru/~mbo
use Finger to know the rest
-==(UDIC)==-
Lyre
> One last thing: Multi-Character FPP is the stupidest thing I have ever
> heard of. It was the only fault I could find (other than the lack of a
> sequel) in Betrayal at Krondor, one of the best RPGs ever. Ultimas
> included, sorry guys. ;)
Good news for you then, because Betrayal at Krondor has a sequel(in the
making or out now, I'm not sure). It's called Betrayal at Antares(or
something similiar), and is being distributed by Sierra.
Lyre
Winkler Devere Bond
In <55l2ku$8...@spacenns.space.honeywell.com>
dan....@stpete.honeywell.com (DLRapp) writes:
>A bit sensitive, aren't you? I thought his post was very well
reasoned
>and presented in a fairly even-handed manner.
Funny, I thought he was posting a rather insulting message comparing a
game that MANY people-not just the Dragons-dislike.
>I'm not a Daggerfall fan;
>but did find his rationale well done. He had the one somewhat
>inflammatory statement. Of course, that's all you chose to focus on
and
>save for your response. Relax and reread the WHOLE post again.
Maybe you didn't consider the fact that I haven't even played
Daggerfall? How am I supposed to compare Ultima to a game that I
haven't-and don't intend to-play?
-Ophidian Dragon
Sébastien Patenaude
The correct name of the sequel is Betrayal at Antara and yes it is made
by Sierra, who regretted deserting Raymond E. Feist world in Betrayal at
Krondor when it became quite popular. The interface of this sequel
should look a lot like the one from Betrayal at Krondor.
There is also another RPG game pseudo-sequel set in the Riftwar world :
Return at Krondor coming soon from 7th Level.
-------------------)-- The Quebec Dragon
Andrew D. Charlton
Graeme Lennon <gra...@interlog.com> wrote:
>However, I do not
>believe that real-time combat eliminates tactics. Quite the opposite in
>fact: having time limit makes it more difficult, but it sharpens your mind
>and mental reflexes. Remember, tactics are supposed to be small-unit -- if
>you can't respond at a small-unit pace, then you're useless. (I am also a
>C&C master... ;>).
I'm not sure what you mean by small-unit, but my experience with real-time
games is that you have to individually control several soldiers at once
(Okay, they have _limited_ autonomy, but really, in Warcraft half the time
your men would stand about while the enemy pounded them). You can't give
meaningful orders, so you are essentially playing 20 people. Playing 20
people is _okay_ in turn-based combat, but it is absolutely ludicrous in
real-time.
--
____/\___ | _O_ Erraticus _O_ | If balloons are
___/__\__) | | -==(UDIC)==- | | outlawed, outlaws
(__/ \__ | mailto:char...@ihug.co.nz | are the only ones
/ \ |http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~charlton/andrew/| with balloons.
Graeme Lennon
> > One last thing: Multi-Character FPP is the stupidest thing I have ever
> > heard of. It was the only fault I could find (other than the lack of a
> > sequel) in Betrayal at Krondor, one of the best RPGs ever. Ultimas
> > included, sorry guys. ;)
>
> Good news for you then, because Betrayal at Krondor has a sequel(in the
> making or out now, I'm not sure). It's called Betrayal at Antares(or
> something similiar), and is being distributed by Sierra.
Yeah, I've checked it out. It's being made by 7th Level, and is called
Return to Krondor. Dynamix lost the license to make Riftwar Games, and 7th
Level picked it up. However, Dynamix still owns the engine to BaK, and
they are using it to make the new game, Betrayal at Antara, which is
completely independant from the Krondor series, except that it will be
using the same (albeit hyped-up) engine.
Heheh... not going to tell ME about my favourite game... ;)
Paul Rupe
Hm, I knew this debate would come up eventually. Let me start off by
saying that Daggerfall and the Ultima series are great games. I've
finished Arena and all the Ultima games except for I and II. While my
favorite computer game is still Ultima VII, I don't think DF can be
dismissed as garbage as quickly as some people are willing to do, either.
The two differ greatly on several dimensions. I actually find this rather
remarkable... it shows just how broad the genre of CRPG really is.
Ultima is definitely more story-oriented. I'm not completely done with
the main plot of DF, but so far it doesn't hold me like the stories of
Ultima games. However, in DF you have much more freedom to--with your own
imagination, that's part of role-playing, isn't it?--make up a story of
your own and follow it. If you go around in DF merely trying to max out
your stats and expecting someone to just hand you a purpose in life,
you're bound to miss out. When creating a character, you have to decide
more than just what their primary skills will be, but also how that
character fits into the world around him, what are his hopes, desires, why
does he choose to go out adventuring. In Ultima, these are pretty much
set for you, and--with a few exceptions--you have little chance to express
the uniqueness of _your_ Avatar.
I guess the main difference here is that in Ultima the 'DM' is essentially
the programmers and designers of the game; while in Daggerfall, the
computer itself DMs to a large degree. The first way allows for much more
detailed, intricate plots, but fewer of them, since each subplot/outcome
has to be planned in advance and written by hand; the second allows an
unlimited number of subplots once the programmers lay down the foundation.
Sure, it's not perfect, there are many things you can't do, but hey, it's
a _computer_ RPG, and computers can do only so much.
Another aspect on which they differ is NPC interaction. This is an
example of the previous point. Ultima's NPCs each have their own
separately written dialogue and personality, but then again, there can't
be that many of them since each has to be done by hand. Daggerfall allows
for full size cities with populations to match, but at the cost of the
uniqueness of each person. DF's NPC interaction isn't as shallow as some
think, though. Your reputation with the people of the area as well as the
particular NPC's own interests play a role in how they react to you. In
Ultima, no NPC changes their attitude toward the Avatar unless they are
specifically coded to do so at a certain time.
People have complained about the lack of a history in Tamriel as there is
in Britannia. Well of course, this IS a new series, remember? How much
history did Ultima II have? Actually, there is quite a bit of background
info in the books found throughout the world. This is one of the things I
enjoyed most about the Ultima games. It's a pity most game companies
don't bother to include this kind of 'irrelevant' information.
Some don't like the fact your character is basically insignificant in the
world of Daggerfall. No-one falls to their knees and says 'Hail, Avatar!'
to your character, ready to aid you or spill out their life story at the
word 'job', but why should they? You have to earn a reputation of your
own before people will take note of you. But you can choose what type of
reputation that is... you aren't limited to goody-goody savior.
Article Unavailable
Desslock
Paul Rupe wrote:
>
<big snip>
> All in all, the greatest thing about Daggerfall is the potential it
> represents. I certainly don't deny that the game has many flaws, but it
> has definitely broken new ground just as Ultima IV did many years ago.
> I've had to unlearn many bad habits and dispel several assumptions about
> RPGs while playing Daggerfall. The only other computer games that can
> boast this are Ultimas. I saw this potential in Arena and quite a bit of
> it was fulfilled in the sequel. I hope Bethesda will continue to improve
> on their concept, fleshing things out so the world's detail will start to
> catch up with its scope. In a few years they may even manage to dethrone
> Lord British.
>
> IMO, DF is the best thing we've seen since Serpent Isle, and I think it's
> the best we'll see for a long time, next to Ultima IX (and not counting
> UO--a completely different type of game).
>
--
Well said. Thanks for a thoughtful post.
I'm not going to try and add much to your thoughts, I think you pretty
much summed up my feelings about these two series of games. However, it
is worth pointing out that it has been over 3 years since a "real"
Ultima rpg game out (Serpent Isle), and over 2.5 yrs since anything with
the Ultima name was commercially released (Pagan). That's a hell of a
long time in the computer game industry. At the time each Ultima game
was released (other than Pagan), they were each completely revolutionary
rpgs. I have no doubt that Ultima 9 will similarly revolutionize crpgs.
That said, I thought you summarized the good features of Daggerfall
quite well, and I am excited by the potential which Daggerfall
represents. Unfortunately, Daggerfall's bugs may prevent the game from
ever getting the credit it deserves (will Bethesda -ever- solve the
"clipping"/void problems? Can they be fixed given Bethesda's use of the
'Xngine' to combine sprites with polygons?). But I can't believe that
gamers aren't better off now that a company like Bethesda is willing to
try and develop complicated, deep, hard-core, crpgs like Daggerfall.
I may be a die-hard Ultima fan, but even Origin employees (according to
Richard Garriott in his MSN chat) are playing quite a bit of
Daggerfall. And I will be too, again, once there's a couple more
patches....
Graeme Lennon
> >However, I do not
> >believe that real-time combat eliminates tactics. Quite the opposite in
> >fact: having time limit makes it more difficult, but it sharpens your mind
> >and mental reflexes. Remember, tactics are supposed to be small-unit -- if
> >you can't respond at a small-unit pace, then you're useless. (I am also a
> >C&C master... ;>).
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by small-unit, but my experience with real-time
> games is that you have to individually control several soldiers at once
> (Okay, they have _limited_ autonomy, but really, in Warcraft half the time
> your men would stand about while the enemy pounded them). You can't give
> meaningful orders, so you are essentially playing 20 people. Playing 20
> people is _okay_ in turn-based combat, but it is absolutely ludicrous in
> real-time.
Now this is getting a little off topic, but....
I define small-unit as anything less than controlling units by brigades
-- preferably being able to control individual soldiers.
Real-time combat games are designed to simulate (maybe not
realistically, but you know what I mean) the conditions that exist for
commanders on the battlefield. Not all their troops are in direct control
of the general, they act on their own and only change their actions based
on new information or new orders. While this is not perfect in these
games, if we are going to bitch about AIs, then we should do an about
face, and join the same side -- I make no excuses, AIs in general suck.
This is why UO is so attractive....
Having to act in real-time does hone your mind, as well as your
reflexes. If you can do the same amount of tactical processing in a matter
of seconds instead of a matter of minutes, then are you not a better
tactician? That is why I prefer real-time combat: it is a better
representation of "reality", and I believe that it requires *MORE* skill
and effort than turn-based.
IMHO....
_ _
|*| Moongate Dragon |*|
-==)-UDIC-(==-
Victor
Graeme Lennon wrote:
>
> Now this is getting a little off topic, but....
> I define small-unit as anything less than controlling units by brigades
> -- preferably being able to control individual soldiers.
> Real-time combat games are designed to simulate (maybe not
> realistically, but you know what I mean) the conditions that exist for
> commanders on the battlefield. Not all their troops are in direct control
> of the general, they act on their own and only change their actions based
> on new information or new orders. While this is not perfect in these
> games, if we are going to bitch about AIs, then we should do an about
> face, and join the same side -- I make no excuses, AIs in general suck.
> This is why UO is so attractive....
> Having to act in real-time does hone your mind, as well as your
> reflexes. If you can do the same amount of tactical processing in a matter
> of seconds instead of a matter of minutes, then are you not a better
> tactician? That is why I prefer real-time combat: it is a better
> representation of "reality", and I believe that it requires *MORE* skill
> and effort than turn-based.
> IMHO....
Oh, come on!!!
Real battles last for hours, days, WEEKS sometimes!!! the
stuff you do in a simulation within 5 minutes would have
taken hours on the battlefield. Sure, REAL combat is real-
time, but it is so slow that, tactically, only turn-based
group combat approximates it.
BTW, speed does not make you a good tactician! A
good mouse operator, perhaps, but tactics have little to
do with reflexes.
Lastly, world champion in speed-chess is NOT the
same guy who is world champion in chess in general. In
fact, computer is the world champion in speed-chess --
the ultimate quick-thinking 'being'. Acting well under
time limit is not equivalent to acting well without it;
and, in real tactical situations, split- second decisions
are not a major factor -- not for the commander, at least.
Stuart Park
Lord Marcus Dracon (dra...@loom.net.au) wrote:
<snip..>
: Dracons are demi-dragonian humanoids. They are fairly
: large, stocky, scaled creatures with tough, armored
: hides and tremendous strength. Their hands and feet
: are clawed.
<etc..>
Do you _have_ to put this dribble at the end of every one
of your messages? A normal signature is usually only
about 3-4 lines, not 20 lines explaining your stupid name.
--
"It was clear the joke was lethal.. no-one could read it and live"
- Monty Python
Stuart Park
E-Mail: stu...@banana.psd.com.au Melbourne, Australia
Jade Dragon
I'll have to admit, Daggerfall was fun... until I realised I installed
the medium install on a Pentium 133 with a 8Xspeed CDROM Drive, while I
played Ultima 6 (aaaaaah, memories...) on a 286. I enjoyed the False
Prophet more. Is it just my PC, or is Daggerfall very very slow unless
you install the whole 400-ish megabytes? I prefer Arena.
The only fault the Ultimas had was that damned Voodoo menory manager
which refused to work under expanded memory managers, but that's history.
Ultima 7 was engrossing, and kept the player excited about what was going
to happen next in the story. Daggerfall is far too open ended for its own
good, and the sluggishness of the game is testament to the fact that
Bethesda tried too hard to create the perfect RPG. I tried very hard to
love it, but I felt ill after a while, what with all that CD accessing.
Conclusion:
Daggerfall is good, but it'll never be an Ultima.
Jade Dragon
Graeme Lennon
> > Now this is getting a little off topic, but....
> > I define small-unit as anything less than controlling units by brigades
> > -- preferably being able to control individual soldiers.
> > Real-time combat games are designed to simulate (maybe not
> > realistically, but you know what I mean) the conditions that exist for
> > commanders on the battlefield. Not all their troops are in direct control
> > of the general, they act on their own and only change their actions based
> > on new information or new orders. While this is not perfect in these
> > games, if we are going to bitch about AIs, then we should do an about
> > face, and join the same side -- I make no excuses, AIs in general suck.
> > This is why UO is so attractive....
> > Having to act in real-time does hone your mind, as well as your
> > reflexes. If you can do the same amount of tactical processing in a matter
> > of seconds instead of a matter of minutes, then are you not a better
> > tactician? That is why I prefer real-time combat: it is a better
> > representation of "reality", and I believe that it requires *MORE* skill
> > and effort than turn-based.
> > IMHO....
>
> Oh, come on!!!
Ok, here I go... ;)
> Real battles last for hours, days, WEEKS sometimes!!! the
> stuff you do in a simulation within 5 minutes would have
> taken hours on the battlefield. Sure, REAL combat is real-
> time, but it is so slow that, tactically, only turn-based
> group combat approximates it.
Certainly, large scale engagements do. But remember, we are talking
small-scale, small unit. Skirmishes, really. Look at stats from the
Vietnam War, or the Second World War, and you can see that small
fire-fights like thse *are* resolved in a matter of minutes. Ask any
soldier, and they will tell you that in any combat situation, speed is of
the essence -- in fact, in many situations, squads ABORT THE MISSION if
they cannot capture their objective in a matter of minutes.
> BTW, speed does not make you a good tactician! A
> good mouse operator, perhaps, but tactics have little to
> do with reflexes.
I *completely* disagree. It is not my mouse-speed the makes the
difference, it is the ability to hold all the variables in my head, and to
make sound decisions in a timely fashion. You cannot do this without a
measure of tacticaly skill -- you cannot do it *well* without a fair
amount of tactical skill.
> Lastly, world champion in speed-chess is NOT the
> same guy who is world champion in chess in general. In
> fact, computer is the world champion in speed-chess --
> the ultimate quick-thinking 'being'. Acting well under
> time limit is not equivalent to acting well without it;
> and, in real tactical situations, split- second decisions
> are not a major factor -- not for the commander, at least.
This is true -- on the surface. But you cannot be good at speed-chess
without at least being good at normal chess. Of course you can make souder
decisions if you have lots of time to think it over -- but it is certainly
a lot more *challenging* to have to make those decisions quickly.
_ _
|*| Moongate Dragon |*|
-==< UD-IC >==-
Winkler Devere Bond
In <55mlnc$1...@banana.psd.com.au> stu...@banana.psd.com.au (Stuart
Park) writes:
>A normal signature is usually only
>about 3-4 lines, not 20 lines explaining your stupid name.
Now, now, play nice children.......
-Ophidian Dragon
greg
Victor wrote:
<BAS>
> Oh, come on!!!
> Real battles last for hours, days, WEEKS sometimes!!! the
> stuff you do in a simulation within 5 minutes would have
> taken hours on the battlefield. Sure, REAL combat is real-
> time, but it is so slow that, tactically, only turn-based
> group combat approximates it.
> good mouse operator, perhaps, but tactics have little to
> do with reflexes.
> same guy who is world champion in chess in general. In
> fact, computer is the world champion in speed-chess --
> the ultimate quick-thinking 'being'. Acting well under
> time limit is not equivalent to acting well without it;
> and, in real tactical situations, split- second decisions
> are not a major factor -- not for the commander, at least.
whoa there hombre, i think you've confused Tactics (the art of directing
a small scale operation with limited goals and limited scope) with that
of Stratagy (the art of directing a large scale operation with long term
goals)
Stratagy is the whole war, or a large scale battle, takeing weeks, days,
months, years.
tactics on the other hand are the sargent or commander IN the ship, or
leading the platton or squad! it very MUCH has to do with reflexes.
the differnce between stratagy and tactics has a ligitimate analogy,
that is the differnce between chess (which takes hours) and speed chess.
now, if you can't think on you're feet, then you are not a good
tacticiaqn, if you can't make split second decisions, you have no place
on the battle feild, you belong in the bunker with the generals,
plotting the next step or looking at the whole picture where you have
hours not seconds to make a descision.
btw: for the record, turn based and real time combat both have thier
merits.
Franc Kaos
On 5 Nov 1996 04:25:39 GMT, ru...@email.unc.edu (Paul Rupe) wrote:
>Hm, I knew this debate would come up eventually.
Hi Paul,
Had to comment (being this is going to the dragons NG as well). I
played Ultima 6, 7, and 8 (plus addins and <rip off> speech pack),
also the underworld duo. The Black Gate was (IMHO) the very best,
which I finished to completion, tho' I enjoyed 6 as my introduction to
the idea of RPGs (in any aspect). The only other RPG I ever finished
was Arena (yes, it was repetitive, this that and the other - but
something captivated and held me thru it). Daggerfall, with its
attendant problems, also has me enthralled, and my preferences
definitely fall into The Elder Scrolls depiction of an alternate world
as opposed to the set in stone worlds and storyline of Ultima.
<Just read the above>, this isn't flamebait, and I'm sincerely not
slagging off Ultima, but all TESIII requires is some decent AI for the
citizens of Tamriel (and a cloth map *would* be nice), 3 dimensional
trees and characters and more unique regional city/dungeon types and
it would be amazing.
And just so all you fans on each side know, Richard Garriot made
accolades to Bethesda with what they were doing with TES in a British
mag.
Ultima is good, Tamriel is better <GD&R> ~
Franc Kaos ~ Salache Elf of Sumerset Isle (scribe)
Artemis Entreri
Jade Dragon wrote:
> Daggerfall is good, but it'll never be an Ultima.
In more than a way I'd agree with you entirely. Daggerfall is
simply a variable hack'n'slash game that really lacks substance,
grip, good art(look at the dungeon walls - they are all the same!)
and depth that was present in both Ultima 6 and definitely in
Ultima 7.
At least Ultima 7's Voodoo memory manager did not give the problems
Daggerfall was always giving, eg. crashing and all.
..with a sabre
and a dagger.
Jon Campbell
Lord Marcus Dracon wrote:
>
> A game that depicts nude women is gratuitous to say the least. It was
> obviously put there to tittilate the beta testers, this cause them to
> miss all the major bugs. The patches are released and even they don't
> work properly. One day Pathesda will get it right.
>
Yeah...PEST-THESDA had better get it right soon. They are not too well-
known for great games. Hmmm...with that many bugs in a mere semblance
of an RPG game like Daggerfraud, one has to wonder if they are
trying to make the most buggiest piece of shit 'game' ever.
--
Campbell
Winkler Devere Bond
In <3282ca04...@newnews.dial.pipex.com> Ka...@dial.pipex.com (Franc
Kaos) writes:
>Ultima is good, Tamriel is better <GD&R> ~
Daggerfall learned from earlier games, just as Ultima did. They are
very similar, except Daggerfall is targeting people who want to buy a
game and play it forever, whereas Ultima is targeting the froup that
want to buy a game to continue adventures in the world they created.
The engines and everything about the games support their individual
goals. THAT is what is important about games, and that is how they
should be judged. DOOM was excellent because it met its goals. I
didn't like it, but that's because the goal it was targeting
disinterested me. The same goes for Daggerfall. On the other hand, a
game like Quake wasn't very good because it was trying to be what DOOM
was to the industry, and it failed. So, please, don't say "Game A is
better than Game B." Whether a game is good or not depends soley on
your personal expectations of what makes a game good. And everyone's
is different.
-Ophidian Dragon
Led Mirage
In article <3284a10c...@news.ip.pt>,
The Dehumanizer <dehum...@ip.pt> wrote:
>On 4 Nov 1996 02:11:19 -0500, lmi...@interlog.com (Led Mirage) wrote:
>
>>
>>Daggeryawn = more Arena with cosmetic improvements
>
>Hmm, one could also say that U8 is a 3D Super Mario Brothers... :)
Arena: big world, open ended, spell maker, lame story, repetitive
dungeons, repetitive, mundane quests, sprite based graphics; idiot
cardboard npcs.
Daggeryawn: big world, open ended, spell make (expanded to itme maker,
potion make), still lame story, repetitive dungeons with horrendous
design, repetitive mundane quests, 3d graphics with sprites, idiot
cardboard npcs.
Essentially, Daggeryawn is just Arena, with some improvements/additions.
Whereas the only thing thats common between U8 and Mario is that they
both require the character to jump.
>
>I love the Ultimas (and DF too), I just think you're being unfair. Probably
>you didn't play more than a few hours of DF.
If I'd only plyed a few hours of DF, I would've been fooled by its
seemingly convincing, awe-inspiring disguise. The more you play DF, the
more bored you get, just like Arena. So I just deltreed it after I was
near completetion of the main "story".
Syed Noman Ahmad
In article <3284a215...@news.ip.pt>,
The Dehumanizer <dehum...@ip.pt> wrote:
>On 5 Nov 1996 04:25:39 GMT, ru...@email.unc.edu (Paul Rupe) wrote:
>
>>
:>>imagination, that's part of role-playing, isn't it?--make up a story of
:>>your own and follow it. If you go around in DF merely trying to max out
:>>your stats and expecting someone to just hand you a purpose in life,
:>>you're bound to miss out. When creating a character, you have to decide
:>>more than just what their primary skills will be, but also how that
:>>character fits into the world around him, what are his hopes, desires, why
:>>does he choose to go out adventuring.
>
>bit of a "Ranzer" inside them: they want to BEAT their games, not LIVE in
>them.
>
Well, maybe I am not eligible for posting in this thread since I didn't
like Elite, got bored with Pirates, never liked Arena etc.
"Living" in a game world doesn't mean that the world has to have the size of
Britain. Scope of a game doesn't come from "what you can and can't do?" but
from "how you can and can't do?". If I want to do same things over and
over again, then I will opt for DOOM or Magic Carpet, anyday. (Don't get
me wrong, I am not bashing Daggerfall here. DF is a nice CRPG. But IMHO,
it is a world with dull characters and no surprises.)
OK, joining guilds and watching your popularity grow is fine, but ultimately
you are doing the same things. You can say that it has more choices then
, say Covert Action or Pirates, but it has its limitations.
However, a fine plot in a non-linear world atleast makes part of the game
unpredictable. You want to beat the game, because you want to see those
unexpected things that may be waiting for you on the next corner.
---
Noman
Jon Campbell
> >saying that Daggerfall and the Ultima series are great games. I've
> >finished Arena and all the Ultima games except for I and II. While my
> >favorite computer game is still Ultima VII, I don't think DF can be
> >dismissed as garbage as quickly as some people are willing to do, either.
>
> a "threat" to their favourite games.
A 'threat' you say? That is most preposterous. WHO likes to buy
duds knowingly?
I don't know about your copy of DF and your other games, but games are
not free and those who happen to be 'bashing' Daggerfall for the shit
that it is, after buying and playing it, must also be sorely
disappointed
that they forked out money for that kind of trash.
I believe we all gave a fair chance to prove itself and it simply
doesn't classify itself as a good game. I believe that we have
seen better.
--
Campbell
Mike Weldon
In article <32851314...@news.loom.net.au> dra...@loom.net.au (Lord Marcus Dracon) writes:
>A game that depicts nude women is gratuitous to say the least. It was
Huh? How can a game be gratuitous? I don't think this word means what
you think it means.
Mike
Victor
***********************************************************
***********************************************************
<be warned -- a small essay on the nature of CRPGs follows>
***********************************************************
***********************************************************
The Dehumanizer wrote:
>
> On Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:47:28 GMT, D.M.Kr...@kub.nl (KROMHOUT D.M.) wrote:
>
> >5. there basically is no story: it's too much based on fighting. I feel that
> >Ultima is an adventure with RPG elements while Dagger is an RPG with
> >adventure-elements.
>
> You got a point there. I've always said that Ultimas were more adventure
> games than RPGs. And there's nothing wrong with that. The implication of
> your own sentence, however, is that you prefer adventure games to RPGs.
> Again, nothing wrong with that. However, I prefer RPGs, and that's why I
> love Daggerfall (but I love the Ultimas too).
I have read the entire thread (YES! So don't flame me for not
reading first) and I feel compelled to make a very important
point.
I have not played DF, but I am playing Arena now, and from what
I hear, they are essentially (!!! DF with many improvements, of
course) similar. I remember Bethesda's intro about creating the
ultimate RPG. Well, folks, ARENA IS NOT AN RPG AT ALL, IMHO!!!
This sounds a bit extreme, but let me explain.
When I played paper-and-pencil AD&D, I role-played a character.
Say, I played a totally stoned druid with chaotic tendencies --
he acted like one. When he was sleeping in the woods near the
inn where his companions were staying, he heard fighting from
the inn -- so he morphed into a large bear and caved in the wall,
brought down the house, and saved the day.
Or a paranoid ranger/cleric -- he met everyone with twin
longswords to their neck, THEN he talked; ruined their reactions,
but that was the character. He was CG -- he just had a hard
life, and so did his parents, so he believed he could not trust
almost anyone.
That is the essence of roleplaying, IMO -- being able to 'live'
your character by thinking and ACTING like him/her. But, folks --
in Arena, you can do nothing of the sort!!! All the quests are
similar, even royalty ones; dungeons are immensely large and
just as immensely boring; but most importantly, you cannot DO
anything!
Say I am playing a darkelf spellsword. I CANNOT play him very
differently from any other darkelf spellsword!
If it was a real RPG, I would want to play him as, say, the elf
with a very short temper and his own code of honor, a deadly yet
reliable warrior of sword and magic; or, I could play him as a
true selfless hero, always willing to help, and giving no quarter
to evil, almost a paladin; or, he could be the selfish hunter
after power and wealth.
In Arena, I can IMAGINE him acting thus, but there is nothing I
can DO to actually role-play all this. That is an understandable
limitation of any such CRPG -- there are too many possibilities
to consider to implement them. All this means, however, that any
CRPG that tries to do what Arena claims to have done actually
fails to live up to the 'RPG' part. You need something as complex
as a live DungeonMaster to allow you to actually *role-play*.
Being able to imagine is an integral part of role-playing, but
it is not enough -- especially when the 'real world' (Tamriel)
does not allow you to act out what you think.
Ultima imposes a very severe limitation -- you can only play one
character (let us stay with the main Ultima line now), namely
the Avatar. He/she is often forced by the game to act in certain
ways, but those actions are consistent with the Avatar's character,
and you DO get SOME leeway. Essentially what happens is that you
can only role-play the Avatar and, perhaps, a couple of minor
spinoffs, but you can actually ROLE-PLAY him/her. In this sense,
Arena lost all depth it could possible have when Bethesda went
after breadth (Arena is little more than a more complex DOOM with
stats and magic and randomly-generated missions.) Ultima, on the
other hand, while somewhat restrictive, is actually a POLE-PLAYING
game.
I hear Daggerfall is better than Arena, but I also hear that the
main world premise is still the same. And, folks, to forestall the
flames -- the reputation/guild allegiance/etc. are too generic &
too impersonal to add real role-playing depth to the game. In order
to role-play you must be allowed to interact with the world in
a way unique to your character -- which Ultima lets you do for
only one character, but which Arena and Daggerfall do not let you
do at all.
I bet people who like Daggerfall and Arena also like DOOM -- all
three good games, just not role-playing ones. When I hear Arena
being called an RPG (especially the best RPG of all, as it was
called by some when it came out), something inside me twists...
BTW, the role-playing depth in Arena is similar to that in
Privateer, only I find space combat a lot more fascinating than
making a couple of swings with the sword and a heal spell to kill
most anything, and a lot less tedious than crawling though
endless, brainless, CHARACTERLESS and FACELESS dungeons in Arena.
Like I said, Daggerfall seems better, but not where it really
counts.
Led Mirage
In article <3286DD...@hq.icb.chel.su>, LEV <l...@hq.icb.chel.su> wrote:
>Led Mirage wrote:
>->
>-> If I'd only plyed a few hours of DF, I would've been fooled by
>-> its seemingly convincing, awe-inspiring disguise. The more you
>-> play DF, the more bored you get, just like Arena. So I just
>-> deltreed it after I was near completetion of the main "story".
>->
>
> Sounds like the game is too big for you.
Its more like: the dungeons have too many corridors, with too few variety
of textures; too many idiot cardboard npcs; too devoid of substance. In
many ways, Daggeryawn is like Quake. Good idea, good technology, but man,
after 2 or 3 levels (dungeons), you get sick of the monotonic textures
and the endless corridors. And worse yet, there's nothing you can
interact with. Its just you, walking signposts, and monsters.
LEV
Yama
Victor <min...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I have not played DF, but I am playing Arena now, and from what
>I hear, they are essentially (!!! DF with many improvements, of
>course) similar. I remember Bethesda's intro about creating the
>ultimate RPG. Well, folks, ARENA IS NOT AN RPG AT ALL, IMHO!!!
From what I remember, the Ultimas weren't a RPG as you describe
either. Definitely the earlier ones weren't - you were a criminal (if
you stole) until you bolted from the town. When you re-entered you
were a respected person again. Can't imagine trying to role-play like
that. But that was early on, and still highly addictive - it wasn't an
RPG.
Along about Ultima V (or so) you had to traverse an Avatar-like
path. While you may not have wanted to play that particular role - it
was role-playing (kind of).
So - the early Ultimas, IMO, weren't RPGs. The later ones perhaps
were - but in a restricted sense.
Arena wasn't an RPG. Daggerfall is - but in a restricted sense.
Not nearly as restrictive as the Ultima's are - by any means.
I'm not exactly sure what there is in the [later] Ultimas you
think is role-playing that Daggerfall doesn't have. Since you haven't
played - perhaps it's unfair to ask. But I've always enjoyed asking
unfair questions <grin> - so what is it about the Ultimas that you
think Daggerfall fails to deliver as far as an RPG goes? Specifically
- not just "Freedom to do whatever I wanted". - since you couldn't do
"whatever you wanted" in any Ultima I've seen.
Being somewhat impatient, let me address some of the items you've
mentioned, and how they work in DF.
>When I played paper-and-pencil AD&D, I role-played a character.
>Say, I played a totally stoned druid with chaotic tendencies --
>he acted like one. When he was sleeping in the woods near the
>inn where his companions were staying, he heard fighting from
>the inn -- so he morphed into a large bear and caved in the wall,
>brought down the house, and saved the day.
You are welcome to do this in DF. Assuming they were monsters -
good job. If they were innocent villagers - and you get caught - your
criminal reputation goes up (or legal goes down). If you get away -
your rep is unaffected. I'm not sure how you could make this more
realistic - or role play it better.
>Or a paranoid ranger/cleric -- he met everyone with twin
>longswords to their neck, THEN he talked; ruined their reactions,
>but that was the character. He was CG -- he just had a hard
>life, and so did his parents, so he believed he could not trust
>almost anyone.
AhHa. Much the way my [recently retired] DarkElf handled things.
Assume they are guilty (of something - maybe pertaining to me) - then
proceed from there. A healthy approach - I commend it.
Townspeople (in DF) try to avoid anyone with a readied weapon -
but will talk, under duress. Don't like what they said - kill 'em and
talk to the next person (before they run away). Or talk nice and
polite to them to try for a different response. All of,these actions
will impact people's reactions to you later - as they should. Not sure
how the role playing is hampered here - you can do whatever you wish.
And the ramifications for most actions are considered - both in
immediate reactions and longer term reputations. Hell, if you kill
them with your sword your long-blade skill may go up from the
practice.
>That is the essence of roleplaying, IMO -- being able to 'live'
>your character by thinking and ACTING like him/her. But, folks --
>in Arena, you can do nothing of the sort!!! All the quests are
>similar, even royalty ones; dungeons are immensely large and
>just as immensely boring; but most importantly, you cannot DO
>anything!
Quests are going to be somewhat similar. In DF you are given a
variety of background stories - "Rescue my child." "Return my
religious object." "Kill the former Assassin who failed." etc.
Basically, they will always boil down to your character and a desired
goal. You will have to kill, talk, lie, whatever to get from where you
start to where you need to get.
But how does this differ from any game that you *do* classify as
an RPG? The story lines in DF are more embellished than other games,
but they do all boil down to "Perform this action." At least in DF,
they often have added twists.
For example if you've tracked down some "Research Papers" for the
Mage's Guild and are returning to the Guild for your reward -
sometimes the Dark Brotherhood (or some other Guild) will try to get
you to hand them over to them. If you do, you collect from the DB and
your rep goes up with them, while your rep for failing a quest for the
Mage's Guild goes down. If they ever find out you betrayed them -
you'll probably get booted out of the Guild. To further twist it,
sometimes you are given counterfeit papers so you collect from both
sides.
Nothing major - but some thought when into keeping a Quest from
being a "Perform this action" linear ordeal. You can often make
decisions at several points along the way. And these are the minor
Quests - most CRPG have Quests written in stone. I can't remember any
Ultima Quests where you could turn the end result over to someone
else.
>Say I am playing a darkelf spellsword. I CANNOT play him very
>differently from any other darkelf spellsword!
>If it was a real RPG, I would want to play him as, say, the elf
>with a very short temper and his own code of honor, a deadly yet
>reliable warrior of sword and magic; or, I could play him as a
>true selfless hero, always willing to help, and giving no quarter
>to evil, almost a paladin; or, he could be the selfish hunter
>after power and wealth.
This is exactly what you can do in DF. You can murder whomever you
please, join whatever Guild you please, perform Quests or not, talk
nicely or rudely, steal from whomever / whatever, ...
Actually, from reading your post - I'd think your exactly the type
of person who would like Daggerfall. Yes, the dungeons are large and
somewhat monotonous - that's not the point of the game for RPGers.
Part of the game definitely, but not the main crux.
>You need something as complex
>as a live DungeonMaster to allow you to actually *role-play*.
Can't argue here - no CRPG will ever match the versatility of a
human DungeonMaster.
>Being able to imagine is an integral part of role-playing, but
>it is not enough -- especially when the 'real world' (Tamriel)
>does not allow you to act out what you think.
Again, I can't say for Arena, but Daggerfall comes closer than any
game I've seen in allowing you to do this. There are [always]
limitations - unfortunately. You cannot kill dog and cats. You cannot
burn down a house. You cannot... the list goes on for a while.
>I hear Daggerfall is better than Arena, but I also hear that the
>main world premise is still the same. And, folks, to forestall the
>flames -- the reputation/guild allegiance/etc. are too generic &
>too impersonal to add real role-playing depth to the game. In order
>to role-play you must be allowed to interact with the world in
>a way unique to your character -- which Ultima lets you do for
>only one character, but which Arena and Daggerfall do not let you
>do at all.
Guild / personal / and legal reputation really isn't very generic
at all. Want a new spell - too bad the Mage's Guild is pissed at you.
Want to buy new armor - you get a great deal because you're so popular
in the current province and have a good PER rating. Want to walk down
a street - if your legal rep is too low - you'd better be running
rather than walking. Attacks and ambushes from Guilds who dislike you
is very non-generic. The arrows sticking in your ass prove it. The
impact of reputation is substantial. It's the basis of reflecting how
your actions to date affect the interactions with the NPCs.
>Like I said, Daggerfall seems better, but not where it really
>counts.
>
I have enjoyed all the Ultimas I've played - and I've played most
of them. I eagerly await the next - and UO may be the best game ever.
I'm not anti-Ultima by any means.
I really wish you'd played Daggerfall rather than Arena. The
visual presentation and a lot of the mechanics are the same - so I
suspect you'd have a bad taste in your mouth the first time you
started it. Really - it's a shame, I think you'd have loved it.
Yama
LEV
Led Mirage <lmi...@interlog.com> wrote in article
<566vas$o...@gold.interlog.com>...
>
> Its more like: the dungeons have too many corridors, with too few variety
> of textures; too many idiot cardboard npcs; too devoid of substance. In
> many ways, Daggeryawn is like Quake. Good idea, good technology, but man,
> after 2 or 3 levels (dungeons), you get sick of the monotonic textures
> and the endless corridors. And worse yet, there's nothing you can
> interact with. Its just you, walking signposts, and monsters.
>
So, I see, you don't like dungeon crawl and prefer adventure style with
tons of interactions. Well, you can tell us about it without rude words.
I like Daggerfall, you don't like it.
Are you really want to hear why I like it? I don't think so.
Then is there any positive in your message?
Tim Chown
Yama wrote:
>
> Townspeople (in DF) try to avoid anyone with a readied weapon -
> but will talk, under duress. Don't like what they said - kill 'em and
> talk to the next person (before they run away).
> This is exactly what you can do in DF. You can murder whomever you
> please, join whatever Guild you please, perform Quests or not, talk
> nicely or rudely, steal from whomever / whatever, ...
You can kill townsfolk? I tried and kept missing, so I assumed
they were unhittable "decoration" for the town. Perhaps I tried
at too low a level and gave up too soon.
I am enjoying DF, but then again I've yet to hit a bigtime bug :-)
--
Tim Chown | http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview
stra...@gamesdomain.com | The site written by gamers for gamers
Pedro Timoteo
Led Mirage (lmi...@interlog.com) wrote:
: >>Daggeryawn = more Arena with cosmetic improvements
: >
: >Hmm, one could also say that U8 is a 3D Super Mario Brothers... :)
: Arena: big world, open ended, spell maker, lame story, repetitive
: dungeons, repetitive, mundane quests, sprite based graphics; idiot
: cardboard npcs.
I agree with most of this, but, still, there was SOMETHING in Arena that
made the game enjoyable for me. Strange, but true...
: Daggeryawn:
Quit calling it that! You're paying homage to the "Ranzer II: Elder Scrolls
Version", Lord Marcus Dracon! :)
: big world, open ended, spell make (expanded to itme maker,
: potion make), still lame story,
Not THAT lame, but, hey, U4-7 have better stories, mainly because they're
set up from the beginning...
: repetitive dungeons with horrendous
: design,
You know, I hated those dungeons in the first 2 weeks, but now that my
character is more powerful (level 21 custom, no cheating) I find my self
actually enjoying them. What I DON'T like about them is not really the size,
but the design: who'd ever BUILD or LIVE in a place like that?
: repetitive mundane quests,
Not quite.
: 3d graphics with sprites, idiot
: cardboard npcs.
It's easy to make them "not idiot" when you write all their dialogues from
the beginning... :)
: Essentially, Daggeryawn is just Arena, with some improvements/additions.
Yeah, and Ultima 7 (my favourite Ultima, I *love* it) is just Ultima 1 with
some improvements/additions... :)
: Whereas the only thing thats common between U8 and Mario is that they
: both require the character to jump.
Ahem... One could also say that the only thing that's common between U8 and
an Ultima is that the character is CALLED (not "is") "the Avatar".
I think of U8 as an arcade/adventure game, not as an RPG.
: >I love the Ultimas (and DF too), I just think you're being unfair. Probably
: >you didn't play more than a few hours of DF.
: If I'd only plyed a few hours of DF, I would've been fooled by its
: seemingly convincing, awe-inspiring disguise. The more you play DF, the
: more bored you get, just like Arena. So I just deltreed it after I was
: near completetion of the main "story".
Hey, just tell me this: isn't RPGing mainly about character development
(not fighting monsters, as many game authors seem to think)? Do you know ANY
game with as good a character creation AND development as Daggerfall?
Darklands comes close... but DF is the one.
Hey, it's better than choosing the sex, a face and getting spells for the
spellbook... :)
--
_______________________________________________________________________
| |\ | Where all men think alike, | Scribe of Morrowind |
| The | )ehumanizer | no one thinks very much. | 'Sabbath' on Kali |
|_____|/_____________|_______-_Walter_Lippmann____|___Ravenous_Dragon___|
| email: dehum...@ip.pt www: http://www.ip.pt/~ip001367/home.html |
\ If you haven't played Warcraft II on Kali yet, you haven't lived. :) /
Brandon C Alessi
Victor (min...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: stats and magic and randomly-generated missions.) Ultima, on the
: other hand, while somewhat restrictive, is actually a POLE-PLAYING
I found this somewhat amusing, but maybe I'm just weird.
Gorp Dragon
(I can remember the Avatar getting laid on several occasions, but he never
had to satisfy himself):->
LEV
Victor <min...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<3287A8...@ix.netcom.com>...
> I have not played DF, but I am playing Arena now, and from what
> I hear, they are essentially (!!! DF with many improvements, of
> course) similar. I remember Bethesda's intro about creating the
> ultimate RPG. Well, folks, ARENA IS NOT AN RPG AT ALL, IMHO!!!
> This sounds a bit extreme, but let me explain.
>
First of all we need to talk about terms. There is two method to
define any term (class, janre, group, etc...) as far as I understand.
1. The first method is to give a good description of term. This is
universal method, but very hard. I don't see good (well, accepted
most of players) decription of RPG janre at all.
2. The second method is to look at janre's examples and make
description yourself. It's very easy method.
You say Arena isn't a RPG. Meanwhile every issue, every magazine,
every post (except yours) tells me Arena is a RPG.
Your personal voice sounds interesting, but a bit of absurd.
If we begin to call black white and white black - is there any
constructive?
Maybe we are too ultimate in our posts sometimes?
P.S. The RPG examples (my favourite and only several):
- Wizardry
- Ultima (I don't like it, but it doesn't matter)
- Might & Magic
- Lands Of Lore
- Arena
- Betrayel At Krondor
- Stonekeep
- Anvil Of Dawn
- Thunderscape
- Albion (I don't like it, but who's listening me?)
- Daggerfall
- many, many other good examles like Yendorian Tales 2,
Angband, Wasteland, bunch of old SSI games (I never
forget Treasure Of Savage Frontier - my first RPG), etc...
Douglas Rener
Definition of a boring, snobbish, asswipe
Read on....
> First of all we need to talk about terms. There is two method to
> define any term (class, janre, group, etc...) as far as I understand.
>
> 1. The first method is to give a good description of term. This is
> universal method, but very hard. I don't see good (well, accepted
> most of players) decription of RPG janre at all.
>
> 2. The second method is to look at janre's examples and make
> description yourself. It's very easy method.
>
> You say Arena isn't a RPG. Meanwhile every issue, every magazine,
> every post (except yours) tells me Arena is a RPG.
> Your personal voice sounds interesting, but a bit of absurd.
> If we begin to call black white and white black - is there any
>constructive?
>
> Maybe we are too ultimate in our posts sometimes?
>
Maybe we are a little bit smug with ourselves???
Victor
> > I hear, they are essentially (!!! DF with many improvements, of
> > course) similar. I remember Bethesda's intro about creating the
> > ultimate RPG. Well, folks, ARENA IS NOT AN RPG AT ALL, IMHO!!!
> > This sounds a bit extreme, but let me explain.
> >
>
> define any term (class, janre, group, etc...) as far as I understand.
>
> 1. The first method is to give a good description of term. This is
> universal method, but very hard. I don't see good (well, accepted
> most of players) decription of RPG janre at all.
>
> 2. The second method is to look at janre's examples and make
> description yourself. It's very easy method.
>
> You say Arena isn't a RPG. Meanwhile every issue, every magazine,
> every post (except yours) tells me Arena is a RPG.
> Your personal voice sounds interesting, but a bit of absurd.
> If we begin to call black white and white black - is there any
> constructive?
True... Yet I get the feeling that in the industry, many have
forgotten about the 'RPG' in 'CRPG'. BTW, everything I said
only applies to single-character CRPGs (roleplaying a group is
a different matter altogether)
> Maybe we are too ultimate in our posts sometimes?
>
> P.S. The RPG examples (my favourite and only several):
> - Wizardry
> - Ultima (I don't like it, but it doesn't matter)
> - Might & Magic
> - Betrayel At Krondor
Multi-character.
> - Lands Of Lore
> - Stonekeep
> - Thunderscape
> - Albion (I don't like it, but who's listening me?)
> - Daggerfall
Never played them.
> - Anvil Of Dawn
I did not consider that one an RPG either... it is more of
an adventure game with stats, nice story and graphics, IMO.
> - Arena
Well, you know my objection to it!
Christian Anderson
Daggerfall vs. Ultima.....
hmmm...
I was one of the first to get daggerfall, and have been playing ultima
for 10 years. Now... Both are exceptional and worth your attention....
But you can not compare the story of one game vs, a series of 8+....
By the end of 8 I knew the charachters, their histories and why they were
there.... The guardians taunts were personal, and really torqued me off..
.
If you wanted to challenge 1 game vs daggerfall....
Lets pick an ultima game at random... lets say.... 4.
Daggerfall's charachter creation could not have existed without 4, and
the thought of a morality affecting the outcome, is another hail back to
this game.
Graphic comparison is not fair, were talking about a 10 year difference,
as for scope, same problem.
Ultima will always hold 1st, yet Elderscrolls may be a force..... in 10
years or so....
FX Dragon.
Winkler Devere Bond
In <3287d0c3...@news.airmail.net> jim...@airmail.net (Yama)
writes:
>- not just "Freedom to do whatever I wanted". - since you couldn't do
>"whatever you wanted" in any Ultima I've seen.
Well, from what I understand, I couldn't do *ANYTHING* I would want to
in Daggerfall.....
-Ophidian Dragon
Jade Dragon
The Dehumanizer wrote:
>
> You are dismissing a game because of its HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS???
> You dropped a game because it accesses the CD too much?
>
> Hey, I may be a really weird fellow, but for me what makes a game "great"
> is how good it is to play, not if it accesses the CD a lot or not.
>
> Two examples (which are not RPGs, but...). When Duke Nukem 3D appeared I
> had a 486 with a very slow graphics card. Even in VGA the game was very
> slow. But did I dismiss it? No, I saw that it was still a great game, only
> my computer wasn't enough. So when I got my Pentium... wow! what a game!
> I'd even register it if 3DRealms and Apogee didn't drop Kali support in
> favor of TEN (tsk, tsk... another customer less.)
>
> However, Quake is a BORING game. It plays fine in VGA on my Pentium. It's
> even reasonable in 640x480. But do I play it? No, it's a boring game. Even
> when I get my P7 (or something) and the game is absolutely smooth in the
> highest possible resolution, it'll still be a boring game. The fault is in
> the game itself, not in how my computer stands up to it.
>
> BTW, Daggerfall on my Pentium 133, Matrox Millennium, 32Mb RAM, 6x CDROM,
> using large (212Mb) install, is perfectly smooth. Much more than Quake...
> :)
I agree I'm being rather petty, but it really ruined the experience for
me when I every tren seconds or so my screen freezes up for another five
seconds before carrying on. When Duke Nukem 3D came out, Pentiums were
standard (I know, I tried it on a DX2-66), and the game did run well on a
Pentium. My gripe is, with a P133 (hardly obsolete hardware), it
struggles to deliver a proper gaming experience and a feeling of actually
being in Tamriel, due to the interruptions.
Actually, I haven't tried installing the large installation. If it works
for you, hopefully it'll work for me. I just wish it didn't have to come
to this - a game on a 8X CD requiring 200Mb installation to run properly?
Never mind. I also hope that your 32Mb RAM wasn't a decisive factor, or
I'd be wasting my hard drive space.....
By the way, glad to meet another who prefers Duke to Quake.
Jade Dragon
Jade Dragon
Jon Campbell wrote:
> I don't know about your copy of DF and your other games, but games are
> not free and those who happen to be 'bashing' Daggerfall for the shit
> that it is, after buying and playing it, must also be sorely
> disappointed
> that they forked out money for that kind of trash.
I wouldn't call it trash, but it certainly was a disappointment. Arena
was ground-breaking in its day, and deserved its success. Daggerfall is
just more of the same, with a LITTLE more AI with LOADS of souped-up
graphics (why are the male character faces still so ugly, though?) at a
RIDICULOUS cost of speed. Arena ran ok on a DX2-66. Daggerfall struggles
through a Pentium 133 (albeit with ONLY 95mb installed onto the hard
disk. Arena used less than 20mb, as far as I remember).
>
> I believe we all gave a fair chance to prove itself and it simply
> doesn't classify itself as a good game. I believe that we have
> seen better.
Yep, I reckon Arena was a better effort. I won't even bother comparing it
to an Ultima.
Jade Dragon
Desslock
Tim Chown wrote:
>
> Yama wrote:
> >
> > Townspeople (in DF) try to avoid anyone with a readied weapon -
> > but will talk, under duress. Don't like what they said - kill 'em and
> > talk to the next person (before they run away).
> > This is exactly what you can do in DF. You can murder whomever you
> > please, join whatever Guild you please, perform Quests or not, talk
> > nicely or rudely, steal from whomever / whatever, ...
>
> they were unhittable "decoration" for the town. Perhaps I tried
> at too low a level and gave up too soon.
>
>
You can kill townsfolk outside of buildings.
In one stroke even.
You have to add your own sound effects.
pow.
Jon Campbell
Jade Dragon wrote:
> I wouldn't call it trash, but it certainly was a disappointment. Arena
> was ground-breaking in its day, and deserved its success. Daggerfall is
> just more of the same, with a LITTLE more AI with LOADS of souped-up
Btw, I just remembered. Dun bother running Daggerfraud under
any kind of installations other than the 'full-installation'.
The excessive accesses to the CD-ROM reader can prove to
be a killer. My whole computer was rattling real bad each time
the CD was accessed.
Yes. Daggerfraud is MOTS. (More of the same) I sure hope that
the PC game magazines will be honesty enough not to give it
any ratings above 3 stars out of a possible 5.
> graphics (why are the male character faces still so ugly, though?) at a
> RIDICULOUS cost of speed. Arena ran ok on a DX2-66. Daggerfall struggles
Yes. The male characters sure look like constipated retards.
Bethesda probably got their artists from 'Dream Forge'/'Event Horizon'
- another company good for ugly mugshots of characters in the games.
Remember 'Dusk of the Gods', 'The Summoning', 'Veil of Darkness'?
> Yep, I reckon Arena was a better effort. I won't even bother comparing it
> to an Ultima.
True.
And I still can't believe Bethesda never learnt after all these years.
--
Campbell
Jon Campbell
Jade Dragon wrote:
> By the way, glad to meet another who prefers Duke to Quake.
Well-met.
Yes. Duke was so much more fun. Not exactly dreary either, with
a tinge of humor. :)
--
Campbell
Hermann Himmelbauer
Jade Dragon (ian...@ppp.nasionet.net) wrote:
: I'll have to admit, Daggerfall was fun... until I realised I installed
: the medium install on a Pentium 133 with a 8Xspeed CDROM Drive, while I
: played Ultima 6 (aaaaaah, memories...) on a 286. I enjoyed the False
: Prophet more. Is it just my PC, or is Daggerfall very very slow unless
: you install the whole 400-ish megabytes? I prefer Arena.
: The only fault the Ultimas had was that damned Voodoo menory manager
: which refused to work under expanded memory managers, but that's history.
: Ultima 7 was engrossing, and kept the player excited about what was going
: to happen next in the story. Daggerfall is far too open ended for its own
: good, and the sluggishness of the game is testament to the fact that
: Bethesda tried too hard to create the perfect RPG. I tried very hard to
: love it, but I felt ill after a while, what with all that CD accessing.
I did the Large Installation with around 215 MB HD-Space. This makes
the game really fast.
--
Hermann Himmelbauer
E-Mail: h902...@asterix.wu-wien.ac.at
Addr.: A-3400 Klosterneuburg Konradtg. 13 Austria
Tel/Fax: ++43 2243 82305
Led Mirage
In article <01bbd080$705f36a0$0acd...@lev.hq.icb.chel.su>,
LEV <l...@hq.icb.chel.su> wrote:
>>
>> Its more like: the dungeons have too many corridors, with too few variety
>
>> of textures; too many idiot cardboard npcs; too devoid of substance. In
>> many ways, Daggeryawn is like Quake. Good idea, good technology, but man,
>
>> after 2 or 3 levels (dungeons), you get sick of the monotonic textures
>> and the endless corridors. And worse yet, there's nothing you can
>> interact with. Its just you, walking signposts, and monsters.
>>
>
> So, I see, you don't like dungeon crawl and prefer adventure style with
> tons of interactions. Well, you can tell us about it without rude words.
How is it that I use "rude words"?
> I like Daggerfall, you don't like it.
> Are you really want to hear why I like it? I don't think so.
> Then is there any positive in your message?
I've presented my view of the game. Yet all you do is attakc my posts and
me personally. And that make your post "positive"?
Led Mirage
In article <569nt5$1...@host.di.fct.unl.pt>,
Pedro Timoteo <p...@students.fct.unl.pt> wrote:
>
>Hey, just tell me this: isn't RPGing mainly about character development
>(not fighting monsters, as many game authors seem to think)? Do you know ANY
And many seems to think going up in levels and improving stats is what
RPGing is all about. But THAT is not what RPG is about either. Its about
how the PC interact with the gameworld and its inhabitants. The gameworld
and the PCs are intertwined in that the actions of the PCs impact the
gameworld, directly or indirectly, and however small it may be. Likewise,
the changes in the gameworld has an impact on the PCs. The PCs need to
alter their behaviour, however slight, to accomodate the changes. And all
these has to be done in a logical way or it'll break the suspension of
disbelieve of the players.
>game with as good a character creation AND development as Daggerfall?
DF presents a static world where nothing changes no matter what you do.
You can kill all the people in the city and somehow, they'll all com
back, and not as undeads. It is also very sterile on the emotional level.
There is nobody you really get attached to, but then nothing really
happens to them anyway. A good rpg NEEDS good npc interaction, and good
npcs. Npcs that are memorable. In this regard, DF fails miserably. And
ultimately makes DF a rather bland game.
Gilbert Roulot
Jade Dragon <ian...@ppp.nasionet.net> a écrit dans l'article
<32898A...@ppp.nasionet.net>...
> Actually, I haven't tried installing the large installation. If it works
> for you, hopefully it'll work for me. I just wish it didn't have to come
> to this - a game on a 8X CD requiring 200Mb installation to run properly?
> Never mind. I also hope that your 32Mb RAM wasn't a decisive factor, or
> I'd be wasting my hard drive space.....
Installing the large installation is worth it, I used to play with the
95Meg one but could
not stand it anymore. So I installed the large 200 Meg and now everything
is smooth;
no more waiting when I exit a building . And I use only a 100Mhz 486 16M
RAM
2X drive (which is almost never accessed now) and a 2Meg smartdrv.
Michael Sweeney
In article <01bbd23f$a9503840$1502...@dmepcbh.utc> "Gilbert Roulot" <roul...@etu.utc.fr> writes:
>From: "Gilbert Roulot" <roul...@etu.utc.fr>
>Subject: Re: Daggerfall is better
>Date: 14 Nov 1996 15:22:35 GMT
>Jade Dragon <ian...@ppp.nasionet.net> a écrit dans l'article
><32898A...@ppp.nasionet.net>...
>> Actually, I haven't tried installing the large installation. If it works
>> for you, hopefully it'll work for me. I just wish it didn't have to come
>> to this - a game on a 8X CD requiring 200Mb installation to run properly?
>> Never mind. I also hope that your 32Mb RAM wasn't a decisive factor, or
>> I'd be wasting my hard drive space.....
I just starting playing yesterday, and I did the MOTHER of all installations,
the 400 or 450 meg one, and I've yet to see my CD go on, besides the intro
after the character generation, which is the only spot I think that it will
ever check the CD.
I say the larger installations are worth it if you have a slow CD-ROM, I might
reduce my installation to see what it;s like with my 10X CD-ROM
Does it use all available RAM? I have 80 megs and am wondering if that helps
play an important factor in game performance with DF?
Lord Marcus Dracon
My condolences go to Pathesda during its recent illness. Not.
On 14 Nov 1996 12:39:36 GMT, du...@dezi.wu-wien.ac.at (Hermann
Himmelbauer) wrote:
Because of their draconian heritage, a dracon will
almost certainly be able to breathe something nasty,
either acid, fire, poison, or something equally
unpleasant. Typically, as a dracon ages and improves
physically, this ability also improves in both
strength and endurance.
Lord Marcus Dracon
It is better now. I hope what it had isn't contagious. Oh it is just
look at the dissonant's posts.
On Wed, 13 Nov 1996 23:29:08 -0800, Jon Campbell <cj...@www.cbell.com>
wrote:
Jon Campbell
LEV wrote:
>
> Jon Campbell <cj...@www.cbell.com> wrote in article
> <328AC8...@www.cbell.com>...
> >
> > And I still can't believe Bethesda never learnt after all these years.
> >
> > --
> > Campbell
> >
>
> not to bother people with bad attitude.
> Anyway, he's not the only one.
> Jon! You'll never beat Lord Marcus. So, throw away your
> funny efforts and clear a way for Lord Shitmaker.
Mwahahaha. I do not intend to beat anyone around here. I am
friendly though I can see that being a Bethesda lackey like
yourself and probably subjected to all kinds of lame-bugs in
beta-testing their games, you are a major bug yourself now.
--
Campbell
ps : Daggerfraud must have been the last eh? :)
LEV
LEV
Led Mirage <lmi...@interlog.com> wrote in article
<56f5a5$8...@gold.interlog.com>...
>
> I've presented my view of the game. Yet all you do is attakc my posts and
> me personally. And that make your post "positive"?
>
I pay you with your money. Nothing positive is in my post too.
The reason is to stop bad-post-wave though.
For example, what does it mean: 'idiot cardboard npc'?
If you play the game you must notice, NPCs interaction
is big enough to beat many other RPGs in this region.
I can give next titles: Angband, Dungeon Master, Xeen...
Can you compare NPC interaction yourself?
I understand, there is a real troll, called Lord Marcus
in this newsgroup. So, you decide to repeat his rampage?
I don't understand, why don't tell us you don't like NPC
interaction in Daggerfall, but tell us something like 'idiot
cardboard NPC'?
I'm ready to discuss this particular question about NPC
interaction with you, but not in yours tone.
I'm ready to discuss huge dungeons, few variety of textures,
endless corridor and so on.
LEV
Lord Marcus Dracon <dra...@loom.net.au> wrote in article
<329185e3...@news.loom.net.au>...
> My condolences go to Pathesda during its recent illness. Not.
>
Hey, Lord Clownus. Someone called Jon Campell is very near
to beat you. You can miss a moment and loose a prize!
P.S. English is my second language and your language puzzles
wastes. It keeps me away from fun.
LEV
Led Mirage <lmi...@interlog.com> wrote in article
<56f7a3$f...@gold.interlog.com>...
> In article <569nt5$1...@host.di.fct.unl.pt>,
>
> And many seems to think going up in levels and improving stats is what
> RPGing is all about. But THAT is not what RPG is about either. Its about
> how the PC interact with the gameworld and its inhabitants.
>
Best example is Larry Laffer.
> happens to them anyway. A good rpg NEEDS good npc interaction, and good
> npcs. Npcs that are memorable. In this regard, DF fails miserably. And
> ultimately makes DF a rather bland game.
>
Yeah, Daggerfall miles away from NPC interaction of Dungeon Master
or Angband or even old SSI games. I am sarcastic here.
Personally I prefer small amount of interaction. You say you want
memorable NPC. Well, I want it too. But I don't see a problem here.
Daggerfall is another style of RPG. Like roguelike games. I saw Diablo
demo. There's no NPC interaction too. Well, small amount of interaction.
And I can say more. Any game with full RPG features will be unplayable.
You see it in Ultima 8. Many people can say it's a bad Ultima, but few
people can say why. Ultima 8 has tons of interaction. Does it mean it's
a great RPG? Dungeon Master hasn't NPC interaction at all. Does it
mean it's a bad RPG? I can agree - Bethesda made great job to fill
Tamriel with thousands of NPC and it seems there is a big chance
to make them all clever with some intellect. Maybe. On the other hand,
personally, I don't want every person in game begins to tell me about
thier problems, how many children they have, how good is their cows,
how bad thier lifes is and so on. The historic and local situation in
Tamriel described in various books indise game. Is there any more
they can tell you? Does ordinary people in real life can tell you
something unusial? They can tell what they know. They know where
person live, who can give you a job and where is some dungeons.
That's all. What do expect from these NPCs after all?
Winkler Devere Bond
In <01bbd2e1$e7e46480$0acd...@lev.hq.icb.chel.su> "LEV"
<l...@hq.icb.chel.su> writes:
> You see it in Ultima 8. Many people can say it's a bad Ultima, but
few
> people can say why. Ultima 8 has tons of interaction. Does it mean
it's
> a great RPG?
Actually, compared to Ultima 7, Ultima 8 was a very static world. The
NPC's were few and far between, and the majority of them said the same
thing.
-Ophidian Dragon
Lord Marcus Dracon
Jon is a god!!
On Thu, 14 Nov 1996 20:45:42 -0800, Jon Campbell <cj...@www.cbell.com>
wrote:
>Mwahahaha. I do not intend to beat anyone around here. I am
>friendly though I can see that being a Bethesda lackey like
>yourself and probably subjected to all kinds of lame-bugs in
>beta-testing their games, you are a major bug yourself now.
>
>--
>Campbell
>
>ps : Daggerfraud must have been the last eh? :)
Lord Marcus Dracon
Translation please.
Jade Dragon
Michael Sweeney wrote:
> I say the larger installations are worth it if you have a slow CD-ROM, I might
> reduce my installation to see what it;s like with my 10X CD-ROM
Don't bother - I ran it on an 8X CD Rom, and I don't think a 10X will
make that much of a difference. It makes you dizzy, with the stops and
starts.
Jade Dragon
Led Mirage
In article <01bbd2e1$e7e46480$0acd...@lev.hq.icb.chel.su>,
LEV <l...@hq.icb.chel.su> wrote:
>
>
>Led Mirage <lmi...@interlog.com> wrote in article
><56f7a3$f...@gold.interlog.com>...
>> In article <569nt5$1...@host.di.fct.unl.pt>,
>>
>> And many seems to think going up in levels and improving stats is what
>> RPGing is all about. But THAT is not what RPG is about either. Its about
>> how the PC interact with the gameworld and its inhabitants.
>>
>
> Best example is Larry Laffer.
I've always maintained that the distinction between rpg and adventure
games is an artificial one.
> Daggerfall is another style of RPG. Like roguelike games. I saw Diablo
> demo. There's no NPC interaction too. Well, small amount of interaction.
I'd never consider Diablo a rpg. To me, its more of an arcade game than
anything else.
> And I can say more. Any game with full RPG features will be unplayable.
Not unplayable, but impossible to programme.
> You see it in Ultima 8. Many people can say it's a bad Ultima, but few
> people can say why. Ultima 8 has tons of interaction. Does it mean it's
Gamewise, U8 is actually pretty good.
> a great RPG? Dungeon Master hasn't NPC interaction at all. Does it
> mean it's a bad RPG? I can agree - Bethesda made great job to fill
I wouldn't even consider Dungeon Master a rpg. If Dungeon Master is a
rpg, then so should Jagged Alliance, or MOM.
> Tamriel with thousands of NPC and it seems there is a big chance
> to make them all clever with some intellect. Maybe. On the other hand,
> personally, I don't want every person in game begins to tell me about
> thier problems, how many children they have, how good is their cows,
Little details is what seperate a great game from a so-so one.
> how bad thier lifes is and so on. The historic and local situation in
> Tamriel described in various books indise game. Is there any more
> they can tell you? Does ordinary people in real life can tell you
Do cabdrivers chat during the ride? Do hairdressers chat while cutting
your hair? Even waiters and waitresses tell stories when they have the time.
Do they say earth-shaking things? No, but at least they say SOMETHING.
> something unusial? They can tell what they know. They know where
> person live, who can give you a job and where is some dungeons.
> That's all. What do expect from these NPCs after all?
Are those people at the mage guild or figters guild or the knight base
ordinary?
jarvinen
>Translation please.
He thinks you're a moron.
Dick
------------------------------------------------------
jarv...@proaxis.com
jarvinen
>Jon is a god!!
Jeez. Now Lord Marcgus is generating clones. As if my killfile wasn't already
overflowing...
Dick
------------------------------------------------------
jarv...@proaxis.com
Lord Marcus Dracon
Lord Marcgus??? typo?? under your rock Dick!!
Lord Marcus Dracon
Welcome back Dick where have you been. Probably in the loony bin with
comments like that from a fellow dissonant
On 16 Nov 1996 06:32:38 GMT, jarv...@proaxis.com (jarvinen) wrote:
>>Translation please.
>
>
>He thinks you're a moron.
>
>
>
jarvinen
>Welcome back Dick where have you been. Probably in the loony bin with
>comments like that from a fellow dissonant
1. News server been down - bad hard drive.
2. Playing basketball (sort of).
3. Ran out of darts.
Dick
------------------------------------------------------
jarv...@proaxis.com "T.W.I.G.T.D.T.W.Y.C.Q.M."
maintainer of the Unofficial Master of Magic Home Page
http://www.proaxis.com/~jarvinen/magic/magic.shtml
jarvinen
>Lord Marcgus??? typo?? under your rock Dick!!
You should know me well enough that I don't do typos, m'lord Dracgon.
Lord Marcus Dracon
My apologies Dick, fancy accusing you of using typos, how remiss of
me. Another secretary minion sacked, good help is so hard to find.
Lord Marcus Dracon
I have had the same problem, damn news server probably the sysop has
been playing Daggerfall and the bugs have downed it.
On 16 Nov 1996 17:31:46 GMT, jarv...@proaxis.com (jarvinen) wrote:
>>Welcome back Dick where have you been. Probably in the loony bin with
>>comments like that from a fellow dissonant
>
>1. News server been down - bad hard drive.
>2. Playing basketball (sort of).
>3. Ran out of darts.
>
>
Jade Dragon
LEV wrote:
>
> Yeah, Daggerfall miles away from NPC interaction of Dungeon Master
> or Angband or even old SSI games. I am sarcastic here.
No problem, 'tis true - but how well would those games do now? And how
powerful a PC would they need to run on? How much would they cost? And
what did they promise? What did the world expect of them? And finally,
what is Angband?
> Personally I prefer small amount of interaction. You say you want
> memorable NPC. Well, I want it too. But I don't see a problem here.
> Daggerfall is another style of RPG. Like roguelike games. I saw Diablo
> demo. There's no NPC interaction too. Well, small amount of interaction.
Diablo has an excuse - they are looking at a multi-player game, and the
players will provide the interaction.
> And I can say more. Any game with full RPG features will be unplayable.
> You see it in Ultima 8. Many people can say it's a bad Ultima, but few
> people can say why. Ultima 8 has tons of interaction. Does it mean it's
> a great RPG?
Ultima 8's main failing was that it called itself an Ultima. If Pagan was
released under a different name, as a totally seperate RPG from Origin,
itr would have done much better (As can be seen in the Crusader series).
It also had less interaction than say, Ultima 6 or 7. The plot was more
linear, and it wasn't a world where you could immerse yourself in. You
just wanted to leave it as soon as possible, while in the other games,
you sort of didn't want it to end, and carried on 'living' in the world.
Pagan's arcade-style play was also very annoying to the average RPG-er.
Dungeon Master hasn't NPC interaction at all. Does it
> mean it's a bad RPG?
Actually, if Dungeon Master was released now, (as Dungeon Master II
proved), it wouldn't do too well.
I can agree - Bethesda made great job to fill
> Tamriel with thousands of NPC and it seems there is a big chance
> to make them all clever with some intellect. Maybe. On the other hand,
> personally, I don't want every person in game begins to tell me about
> thier problems, how many children they have, how good is their cows,
> how bad thier lifes is and so on.
Would be nice if at least a few NPC's sort of had some sort of identity.
The historic and local situation in
> Tamriel described in various books indise game. Is there any more
> they can tell you? Does ordinary people in real life can tell you
> something unusial? They can tell what they know. They know where
> person live, who can give you a job and where is some dungeons.
> That's all. What do expect from these NPCs after all?
As in real life - some you like and some you dislike. When all
inhabitants of Tamriel act alike, it's very robotic, and makes you feel
very alone. I certainly felt very alone in Tamriel. I could forgive
Arena, because Arena offered me a very new RPG experience, that of the
Elite-style character building simulation, (and I played it till my
healer reached about level 19. I still haven't finished it yet and have
three staff pieces). Daggerfall offers the same with souped-up graphics
(and we can see how Bethesda did it, with gamers having to install 215MB
onto their hard disk - anyone know of a game which requires even half of
that to run just about properly?). There's even an option to install
450MB and if all that's just for graphics, then it's very very
disappointing. Even, say, five or so characters who really came to life
in the game would have made such a difference. When you do not support
multi-player, you have to make the pc-controlled people in the game real.
I'm not saying it's a bad game, but given the shallow (although to be
fair, broad - but not deep) gameplay, I've got better things to do with
215MB of hard disk. Even the 95MB installation (larger than most modern
games) ran like a dog. I don't know much about programming, but I believe
the term is lazy code programming. For that amount of hard disk and
hardware requirements, and given today's age of programming, I expected a
lot more from Daggerfall, and, although I really looked forward to the
game, I must say it is a really big disappointment.
Jade Dragon
Aaron Milchiker
LEV (l...@hq.icb.chel.su) wrote:
: to make them all clever with some intellect. Maybe. On the other hand,
: personally, I don't want every person in game begins to tell me about
: thier problems, how many children they have, how good is their cows,
Hey, I kind of like this!
You Ultima 9 design team people, I think you should make the standard
keywords "Name", "Job", "Health", and "Cow" so each NPC can give us a
status report on their respective cows.
Well, I think it'd be cool anyway. =)
-Aaron
Crimson Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
--
,----------------------------------------------------------------------.
| Aaron M. Milchiker | Harvard University |
| e-mail: amil...@fas.harvard.edu | 197 Pforzheimer Mail Center |
| cri...@speed.net | Cambridge, MA 02138-7529 |
`----------------------------------------------------------------------'
Lord Marcus Dracon
Sent to Alt.games .daggerfall
On 17 Nov 1996 08:25:35 GMT, amil...@course2.harvard.edu (Aaron
Milchiker) wrote:
Rob Davies
Jon Campbell wrote:
>
> Jade Dragon wrote:
>
> > By the way, glad to meet another who prefers Duke to Quake.
> Well-met.
>
> Yes. Duke was so much more fun. Not exactly dreary either, with
> a tinge of humor. :)
>
> --
> Campbell
Besides the gameplay, did anyone find the graphics in Quake to be rather
disappointing (for example, the weapons). 'Cos as far as I'm concerned,
it gave the impression of the weapons graphics being thrown in as an
afterthought, as if they forgot they had to do them!
Then again, it could just be me...
--
Rob M Davies Red Ferret Dragon
Software Engineering, B'ham Uni. -==(UDIC)==-
R.M.Davi...@cs.bham.ac.uk
32-196 Griffin Close, Bristol Rd. South, Northfield, B'ham
Jon Petersen
Man, Duke3d is soooo lame. I admit the gameplay can be pretty fun. Some
of the level designs are neat. It's probably fun for multi-player. But:
a) The monsters look terrible. Even compared to the monsters in DOOM,
they stink.
b) Duke sucks. His voiceovers are more pathetic than funny. If the game
was making fun of the whole macho-guy thing then it could be brilliant
satire, but as it stands, it's adolescent junk.
c) Sexism sucks too. "This is K-TIT, the breast, uh, I mean, the best in
entertainment." Huh-huh, Beavis. Man, it's almost as funny as those
teenage sex comedies I watched when I was in junior high. As a matter of
fact, when I was in junior high I probably would have said (imagine zits
on my face and a cracking voice): "Man, this is hilarious! Funnier n'
Revenge of the Nerds II!" Add in women that you can't save and that
often "accidentally" get blown up, tied up in suggestive positions
straight out of fevered 12-year-old wet dreams, and you get a pretty
cheesy package. God, go to some nudie web page if you're that desperate
for submissive female companionship.
That said, I have to say that I don't think anybody is as happy with
Quake as they expected, just cause of the hype. I agree the weapons look
a little dumb (though really just the shotguns and rocket launcher) and I
haven't played the full version so I can't comment on the way the levels
look, but the monsters look COOL. But, to each his own.
As to the original title of this post (I haven't seen the past ones about
Daggerfall), man, Daggerfall is junk. More bugs than friggin ULTIMA 7,
fer Chrissakes, and plus the conversations, according to the manual the
"heart of the game", suck bigtime. I can't approach the King of
Daggerfall and ask him about the death of his father, but I CAN ask him
where any one of twenty taverns is! Yes!!!!! Endless random dungeons
with nothing of any real interest, great. Actually, I will admit that
Daggerfall is better than Ultima 8, but that's kind of like saying that
fruit cake tastes better than dog poo. I'd take the cake, but why eat
either?
Gurpsican Dragon
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Lord Marcus Dracon
How did Duke get into this newsgroup. Please don't besmirch Duke by
posting it in a Daggeryawn thread.
Lord Marcus Dracon
I just heard that Daggeryawn got over its illness, (they amputated a
beta testers hands) condolences to Pathesda.