5-7 in the blacks
Bud H
J986x
----
T
AKJ98xx
Pass Pass 1H Pass
3C Pass 4H Pass
?
3C is natural and invitational.
1. Would you have opened this hand as dealer? (Top flight regional
knockout event)
2. Would you bid 1S or an invitational 3C on your second call?
3. Do you pass 4H in the given auction or do something else?
henry...@yahoo.com
1. Yes, I would have opened 1c (2/1) or 2c (Precision) with the South
hand. With the AK of clubs, 5 spades, and a heart void, I don't think
this is a particularly close decision.
2. Whether to respond 1s or 3c depends, in part, on system. If you
are playing Flannery, then 3c is a little more attractive since you
aren't missing a 5-4 spade fit unless opener has extras. Still, what
if opener has, say,
AQxx
AKxxx
Axx
x
will he rebid 3c over your invitational 3c bid? And how will you
respond if he bids 3s? 5d as exclusion RKC? But what if opener has,
say,
AQx
AKQxx
xxx
xx
and is aiming at 3nt? Do you want to be in a spade slam with these
hands? I'm not sure I do.
So if I passed this hand originally, I would respond 1s.
3. As it is, I would like to explore slam but I don't know if I can
do that safely. Wouldn't opener rebid 4h with, say,
xxx
AKQxxxx
AK
x
in which case we might be off 3 spades and a heart trick?
The heart void would incline me to pass 4h.
Henrysun909
KWSchneider
Systemically I would open this 1S, jump in clubs [we play canape], and
then rebid spades to show 5S.
This is a powerful offensive hand with almost zero defense - you have
to get in early and often and ultimately SAC in clubs if they own the
hand.
Kurt
castigamatti
1.) No
2.) Yes
3.) Yes
BR
OldPalooka
1. Yes, 1000 times yes. Rule of 21 and a truly awkward hand to
pass. My second choice would be to open 3C and take a later free bid
in spades, actually my first choice if down a bunch or if the opps
wilt easily.
2. I think I am endplayed into the odious 1S. 3C does not make a lot
of sense on a two suited hand since partner will never expect it.
3. Yes, assuming 4H is not some sort of fast arrival gamble.
-- Bill Shutts
Art Hoffman
"OldPalooka" <ashu...@san.rr.com> wrote in message
news:74efaa28-8a76-4149...@i5g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
snip
> 3. Do you pass 4H in the given auction or do something else?
snip
3. Yes, assuming 4H is not some sort of fast arrival gamble.
-- Bill Shutts
=======================
Huh? :)
Fred.
1. 1C if natural, 2C if a 1C is artificial and forcing. Big 2-
suiters are unmanageable unless they are opened. This one with 9 HCP,
2 QT, and 5 loser count is a clear opener in my book.
2. I don't know. See 1.
3. It's too late for the spade suit since 4S would be a cue bid
confirming hearts. With a void in hearts, I think you need to pass
rather than trying for slam with 5C.
If you think this is awkward, just think if you had passed and LHO had
called 4H.
Fred.
Fred.
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't believe it. A hand I open and you don't.
Fred.
TWOferBRIDGE
8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
> 1. Would you have opened this hand as dealer?
-------Yes, 1C since I have a "toy" for opening 1C with a minimum
------- or sub-minimum (5/5)+ in the blacks
> 2. Would you bid 1S or an invitational 3C on your second call?
------- I play 3C! as a fit-showing-jump as a passed hand or
------- in competition. My method for getting to 3m with a hand that
------- can play 3m opposite possible shortness is to bid 2NT! as a
------- relay to 3C for pass or correct to 3D...
> 3. Do you pass 4H in the given auction or do something else?
------- Pass.... partner has "made his bed.... now he has to lie in
it".
- - Don - -
Co Wiersma
I would sure open this hand 1C anytime
But what is the rule of 21 ?
I do only know about the rule of 20 ( longest two suits + points)
castigamatti
Missing a ctrl in spades. I am getting old, hopefully wiser as well.
BR
castigamatti
I hate passing this hand to tell you the truth, nonetheless it is
better than the alternatives. 1S does not make sense, 1C is better but
opener is incapable of describing this hand accurately later on so
perhaps passing makes more sense. On the other hand opening this hand
with a vulnerable three level preempt is kind of risky, apart from the
potential losers in spades, missing a spade game is a possibility,
missing a spade slam is less likely though. On the flip side the hand
brings a certain amount of potential tricks in a NT game, albeit with
no side entries it can not be classified as an opening bid.
BR
Player
This hand was posted on BBO forums as well, and some of the know it
all "wide boys" suggested that this was a wtp opening. I disagree with
this. Playing a big C system or a system where i have a gadget for
this type of hand, I agree, I would open. Playing a 2/1 based system,
this hand is a pass. The chances are too great that we will end in a
game where we have no chance because partner believes that we have our
bid. How would you feel about playing 3NT opposite a reb based 13
count? Partner won't force to game with 13? Pull the other one!
Interestingly, nv vs vul and reverse the H and S and i would open 5C.
Having passed, I would suggest that 1S is obvious.
Lorne
news:i7l0eg$vvm$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Top flight regional knockout event, all vulnerable
>
> J986x
> ----
> T
> AKJ98xx
>
> Pass Pass 1H Pass
> 3C Pass 4H Pass
> ?
>
> 3C is natural and invitational.
>
> 1. Would you have opened this hand as dealer? (Top flight regional
> knockout event)
I would open 1C. It is a good suit, you want a club lead if the oppo win
the auction, and you have very good playing strength if you have a fit.
>
>
> 2. Would you bid 1S or an invitational 3C on your second call?
>
1S or 2C look better than 3C unless 2C is a heart raise. Why use up so much
room when you know there is a mis-fit.
>
> 3. Do you pass 4H in the given auction or do something else?
Yes - you have no choice as 4S is a cue and there is no reason to think 5C
(if passed) will play better.
Co Wiersma
A : opening 1C and rebidding spades describes this hand nice.
B : this hand is nowhere close to a 3C opening as I have about 2 spades
to many and also it has not nearly enough losers.
C : tricks for a NT game do not seem very relevant to me , as I dont
plan to play NT
castigamatti
Opener can rebid spades after 3C as well. Seven clubs are not
relevant? I remind you the clubs AKJ98xx, just in case you haven't
noticed.
BR
Eric Leong
>
> J986x
> ----
> T
> AKJ98xx
>
> Pass Pass 1H Pass
> 3C Pass 4H Pass
> ?
>
> 3C is natural and invitational.
>
> 1. Would you have opened this hand as dealer? (Top flight regional
> knockout event)
I would be tempted to open 1C because of the good suit. I may get
lucky if partner can bid spades freely. If partner insists on bidding
notrump my suit is long and strong enough to remove to a club
contract. However, I don't opening is mandatory. If you do open and
the auction turns competiitive you are potentially going to have
problems if partner is going to play you for slightly more cards.
>
> 2. Would you bid 1S or an invitational 3C on your second call?
One would think if you have only one bid in this auction the closest
bid is 3C which shows long good clubs and where most of your hcp are.
Just take one small spade and make it a small red card and one would
think you made the perfect picture bid. On the other hand, you have
to replace and move far more cards to get close to the perfect 1S bid.
Also, if you respond 1S you are praying you get a second chance to bid
clubs. However, you may get that chance and even if you do partner is
never going to believe that your clubs is far stronger and longer than
your spades.
>
> 3. Do you pass 4H in the given auction or do something else?
Well, I got the gist of my hand across to partner. I never promised
hearts or anything in diamonds. Partner's 4H bid says he knows where
the partnership contract should be. It is hard to believe holding S
J98xx is going to lead to a better contract given partner's 4H sign-
off. Surely if such a possiblility existed partner might bid a little
more slowly. Consequently, I see no reason to over rule partner that
will gain in the long run.
Eric Leong
Co Wiersma
yes , they are nice clubs
I did notice ,thank you very much
and thats all the more reason to open 1C
castigamatti
You don't have many entries if partner is holding only two clubs.
Unbalanced hands are valuable if you have a fit, I personally don't
much like 6-2 fits.
BR
castigamatti
7-1 is even worse, and 7-2 is not much better. Moreover your opponents
can as easily have a healthier fit in diamonds.
BR
Fred.
I argree that it would be nice to have the ace or king of spades.
But, in judging the hand, responder will likely treat your hand as 6-5
rather than 7-5 and so, will probably estimate the correct number of
tricks.
I also think I would be less emphatic about opening 1C if I thought
the passed hand 2C response to 1H or 1D were natural and forcing, so
that I knew I could bid out my pattern.
In my own partnership I could pass this hand, responding 2C to 1H
confident that partner will bid again and is not going to shut me out
with 4H or the like unless holding a true freak.
At match points, I think I would still would open 1C,
Fred.
OldPalooka
Since Axx xxxxx xxxx x provides an adequate play for 4S, why is game
so unlikely opposite 13 balanced? Does this assume partner believes
in preempting 3NT with 13 semi balanced, so that we are forced to make
awkward guesses on our distributional hands? Will he go completely
nuts and decide 4S is a slam try?
Yes, we might get too high if we open, or we might get too low (or to
the wrong strain) if we pass. I would rather get too high in the best
strain. I spent too many years taking safety plays because I got too
low.
-- Bill Shutts
castigamatti
Ok, but isn't 2C Drury?
BR
castigamatti
Not necessarily I suppose.
BR
Player
Why do you think we will stay too low? I think if you pass this you
have many options to gain.
a) You can bid competitively over the opps auction. You can still make
forcing bids over partner's opening.
OldPalooka
In general your gains will be smaller because you succeeded in
stopping in a partial or went down a trick less instead of finding a
game or slam bonus when partner fits. You may be able to make forcing
bids, but the world can not unless they have a fit. Our choice of a
1S response to 1H is definitely not forcing in a Standard setting.
-- Bill Shutts
Player
Bill, with all due respects - you must be the only person in the world
who thinks a 1S response by a passed hand is nf over a 1H opening.
Eric Leong
>
> - Show quoted text -
What source can you cite that 1S by a passed hand is forcing? You
denied an opening bid and your partner is under no obligation to keep
the bidding open. Partner could be opening a light one heart bid with:
S xxx H AKJx D QJx C xxx to get a heart lead. Obviously, partner
is going to turn down all invitations so why should he bid over 1S. In
your language, with all due respects - you must be the only person in
the world who thinks a 1S response by a passed hand is forcing over a
1H opening.
Eric Leong
Dave Flower
Is 3NT that unlikely to be a bad contract ?
Give partner:
x x
A x x x
A x x x x
Q x
and it is lay down.
Dave Flower
boblipton
Eh? Opposite a third-hand opener? If parymer opened light, he can
pass.
Bob
derek
> Top flight regional knockout event, all vulnerable
>
> J986x
> ----
> T
> AKJ98xx
>
> Pass Pass 1H Pass
> 3C Pass 4H Pass
> ?
>
> 3C is natural and invitational.
>
> 1. Would you have opened this hand as dealer? (Top flight regional
> knockout event)
Well, I don't get to play in top flight regional events, but I would
never consider not opening that as dealer. Yesterday I got to 4H on
S -
H - T9xxx
D - AT98xxx
C - A
after:
W Me E S
(3C) 3D (4C) X
Now, perhaps if I'd passed (partner has 19 HCP), we might have got to
6H where we belonged...
> 2. Would you bid 1S or an invitational 3C on your second call?
After opening 1C? I bid 1S intending to rebid spades.
> 3. Do you pass 4H in the given auction or do something else?
I pass. Having given a completely inadequate picture of my hand so
far, I can't improve things by bidding now.
derek
> On Sep 25, 9:19 am, "Bud H" <budh9...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Top flight regional knockout event, all vulnerable
>
> > J986x
> > ----
> > T
> > AKJ98xx
>
> > Pass Pass 1H Pass
> > 3C Pass 4H Pass
> > ?
>
> > 3C is natural and invitational.
>
> > 1. Would you have opened this hand as dealer? (Top flight regional
> > knockout event)
>
> > 2. Would you bid 1S or an invitational 3C on your second call?
>
> > 3. Do you pass 4H in the given auction or do something else?
>
> 8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888
>
> > 1. Would you have opened this hand as dealer?
>
> -------Yes, 1C since I have a "toy" for opening 1C with a minimum
> ------- or sub-minimum (5/5)+ in the blacks
You need toys? This bids pretty easily in standard American.
> > 3. Do you pass 4H in the given auction or do something else?
>
> ------- Pass.... partner has "made his bed.... now he has to lie in
> it".
"Partner" didn't make that bed, "you" did. :-(
Eric Leong
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well if you count tricks rather than points this hand is a lot closer
to a 3NT bid than pass. You can count at least six clubs tricks and
two aces. On the other hand, holding a stronger hand such as: S Kx
H KQxxx D KQJx C xx is a clear pass of 3C. To make 3NT, you require
partner to have a long good club suit headed by an ace and another
ace. But if partner had such a hand why didn't he open 1C?
Eric Leong
Co Wiersma
On this side of the river, passing is quite normal
Co Wiersma
castigamatti
No, and this is even funnier...
x x
A x x x
A x x x x
x x
...when it makes. Nonetheless describing your hand to partner...
J986x
----
T
AKJ98xx
...is not always all that easy. It is not a matter of strength. The
kind of hand you have ( or kind of strength if you wish ) is what
matters, as partner to properly judge whether it is right to bid game
or it is proper to pass.
BR
Fred.
Well, I would be in the OP, since 2C is not even considered.
Fred.
Player
Well Bob and Eric, not one person I know plays this as nf. This seems
like a ridiculous treatment to me. Perhaps if you like to encourage
opps coming in, then....
Fred.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, you can't have the only shapely hand at the table. What's your
plan if LHO bids 4H followed by 2 passes?
If you open 1C, there's some hope partner can double for takeout and
you can find a spade contract. At favorable, or with good table feel,
reopening 4S, giving partner a nice picture, is not out of the
question.
The risk of passing is that your spade suit isn't anywhere near good
enough to compete at a high level unless you show the clubs first.
Fred.
Player
Fred, did you notice that all are vul? So you are not at favourable
vul and I don't understand why you are introducing a straw man
argument. Did you also read my previous post as to my action at
favourable vul?
I already commented that if you had a 2 suited opening available as
you can have in any civilised country, then that opening would be
automatic. I also commented that opening would be automatic playing a
limited strength opening system. It is a loser playing 2/1 if partner
believes you have your bid.
By the way, if you have followed previous posts made by me in the
past, you would know that I am a fervent advocate of opening light -
PLAYING a 2/1 system, you are playing with fire opening this.
Ron
castigamatti
The interesting thing is that the more unbalanced the hand is the more
important seems to be holding aces. The value of an ace is basically
increasing.
BR
OldPalooka
I had one partner who saw it your way. Fabulous card player. Had to
be, he bid to such strange contracts.
When they balance over 1S and you subsequently bid and make 6C,
perhaps they will tread a little more cautiously. And are you
suggesting I don't want to encourage them to enter the auction when I
hold KTxx xx Q9xx AJx which is a somewhat more likely sort of
holding.
In any event, it has been standard to play this particular ridiculous
treatment since 1927 during the mythical cruise on Vanderbilt's
yacht. Five generations of the best players in the world never saw
fit to change, but you can bet your last quarter they thought long and
hard about it.
-- Bill Shutts
OldPalooka
I suppose if you open 1S a la Stevie Robinson, 2/1 could bite you
readily enough. But no one has suggested that, and I do not
understand what 2/1 has to do with opening 1C since it does not apply.
If you mean that partner will willy nilly force to game on any 12
count, one of us does not understand the approach. Sure, if partner
holds xx AQxxx AQxxx x, we will get too high. Seems a small price to
pay since it is not clear how we will stop in 2 or 3C if I pass,
(although the OP could, I cannot).
-- Bill Shutts
derek
> Player schreef:
>
> > Bill, with all due respects - you must be the only person in the world
> > who thinks a 1S response by a passed hand is nf over a 1H opening.
>
> On this side of the river, passing is quite normal
Here too. When 1H might be made on shape and far less than 13 HCP,
and passing first denies 13HCP, it's often not hard to pass a 1S
response with 2 or 3 spades.
Fred.
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sorry, I should have used the subjunctive. Vulnerable there is some
hope for a double of 4H when partner has a spade fit. If vulnability
_were_ favorable, a 4S reopening makes sense if you've shown the
clubs. Keep in mind that given your 9 HCP, there's plenty of room for
a game each way, so a pass is also playing with fire.
Actually, I wasn't thinking about a system with limited openings. I
was thinking in terms of KS which has at least as high a minimum for a
1C bid than most 2/1 systems. This particular hand has almost a king
abouve minimum in playing strength, though it is a little
disappointing in defense in spite of its 2QT.
And, unless you're playing bid reverses, this hand normally has no
rebid problem whatever:
1C 1D(H)
1S force
minimum spade rebid
or
1C 1NT (5-8 HCP)
2S where responder passes, takes a 3C preference, or bids more with
good tops and a double fit.
and, of course after
1C 1S
your hand is woth about 18 or 9 points as dummy so you ought to be
able to do something depending on system.
My experience is that you need to prioritize strain over level unless
it just takes your bidding totally out of line and the only way to get
to the right strain in a 2-suiter is to bid.
Fred.