LLHE Tough (?) River Overcall
Linda K Sherman
I'm wondering if I broke that commandment here, and if there's anything
else I could have done to get a better read on this hand.
I'm in early-middle position with Jc Ts. I open-limp, five see the flop,
which is...
9s 8s 8c
Check, check to me, and I check because I'm severely allergic to betting
bare straight draws when there is both a flush draw and a pair on board
(if you disagree, please say so). Check behind me and button bets, SB
folds, BB calls, I call, other preflop limper folds. Three to see the
turn, which is:
[9s 8s 8c] Kh
Check, I check, button bets again, SB calls, I call.
River:
[9s 8s 8c] Kh Js
Check, I check (would anyone bet here?), button calls, SB calls, I fold.
Button has Q9 and SB has T9 so my JT would bave been the winner.
Have at me.
Lin
VINCENT544
I wouldn't play JTo from on the button (unless I was stealing/bluffing etc),
let alone from mid but thats me.
>five see the flop,
>which is...
>
> 9s 8s 8c
Hmmm I wouldn't be too excited...even if you hit your straight, you could be
drawing dead to a made fullhouse, or to someone drawing to one, not to mention
the flush draw. Lets move on.
>Three to see the
>turn, which is:
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh
>
>Check, I check, button bets again, SB calls, I call.
You've got to let this one go. You have 6BB in the pot so you are getting 6:1
on your call here and you have a less than 1 in 6 chance of making your
straight on the river, and keep in mind you could be drawing dead, so IMO, this
is a bad call.
>River:
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh Js
>
>Check, I check (would anyone bet here?), button calls, SB calls, I fold.
I can't imagine for the life of me what I would still be doing in this pot, but
I suppose I might bet here, but only if I intended to call. You might get some
surprise folds, or at least he would need a monster to raise you with that
board. I wouldn't like my chances though.
>Have at me.
I dont' want to have at you, but I think it would be better if you were to bet
out if you were intending to stay in these type of speculative hands......but
thats me. As for JTo from mid, well, I wouldn't play it and I am pretty liberal
with my starting hands compared to some.....although I have seen good good
players play it to a profit...but they would be betting, and betting strong,
not calling....
just my 5.89 cents.
yoyo
Linda K Sherman
>
> >I'm in early-middle position with Jc Ts
>
> I wouldn't play JTo from on the button (unless I was stealing/bluffing etc),
> let alone from mid but thats me.
I think that's waaaaaaaaaay too tight, and I'm the sort of player who
gets ribbed about my chips collecting dust. Shit, I'll play 65o on the
button for one bet in most low-limit games. Position is worth a fortune
against loose-passive, bad players.
>
> >five see the flop,
> >which is...
> >
> > 9s 8s 8c
>
> Hmmm I wouldn't be too excited...even if you hit your straight, you could be
> drawing dead to a made fullhouse, or to someone drawing to one, not to mention
> the flush draw. Lets move on.
Agreed.
>
> >Three to see the
> >turn, which is:
> >
> > [9s 8s 8c] Kh
> >
> >Check, I check, button bets again, SB calls, I call.
>
> You've got to let this one go. You have 6BB in the pot so you are getting 6:1
> on your call here and you have a less than 1 in 6 chance of making your
> straight on the river, and keep in mind you could be drawing dead, so IMO, this
> is a bad call.
The odds of making a straight on the river are 4.75-to-1 (counting all
eight straight cards as outs). In counting the pot odds, you have to
include implied odds. I figure to get at least one caller on the river.
So I think I'm actually getting somewhat better than 7:1, not 6:1, and I
AM drawing to the nut straight (if I had the dumb end, I would fold for
sure, and with T7 I probably wouldn't have been in the pot in the first
place).
But you may be right. Maybe 7:1 is too thin here when you add up all the
ways I could lose if I make the straight. I just hate folding when the
only bettor is the button.
[snippage]
> As for JTo from mid, well, I wouldn't play it...
I play it in loose passive games vs weak players, if I can get in for
one bet. It's not a great hand but when it hits the right flop it can be
very profitable because of the tendency of players at this level to
chase too much.
Lin
PokerGeek
> against loose-passive, bad players.
What do you consider a loose-passive, bad player? You open limped
with JTo, check/called twice, then check/folded the the winner.
> I just hate folding when the
> only bettor is the button.
You didn't give him any reason to stop betting. Once you decided you
weren't going to fold, what made calling the next best option?
Eric
>
> I'm in early-middle position with Jc Ts. I open-limp, five see the flop,
> which is...
I don't like open-limping with this hand, but I think it will make
money against 4 low limit opponents, so it worked out OK.
>
> 9s 8s 8c
>
> Check, check to me, and I check because I'm severely allergic to betting
> bare straight draws when there is both a flush draw and a pair on board
> (if you disagree, please say so). Check behind me and button bets, SB
> folds, BB calls, I call, other preflop limper folds. Three to see the
> turn, which is:
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh
>
> Check, I check, button bets again, SB calls, I call.
>
> River:
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh Js
>
> Check, I check (would anyone bet here?), button calls, SB calls, I fold.
>
I think you can call because your call closes the action and the
button has been betting the whole way and is unlikely to have a K. I
wouldn't bet because the button could raise representing an 8 and that
would be tough to call.
Manny
> >Well the ODDS are 38-to-8
>
> Where do you get 38 from? You know your two cards and the 4 board cards,
> leaving 46 unknown. Am I missing something?
>
> yoyo
38 don't help. 8 help. 38 times you don't make it. 8 times you do make
it. 38-8. 4.75-1.
The mistake you're making is not uncommon but you should reconcile it
iin your head.
If you flip a coin, you're 1-1 against hitting your side (1 doesn't
help. 1 does). If you roll a die, you're 5-1 against hitting a given
number (5 don't help. 1 does).
lin -- the intermediate caller makes me want to fold. He has to have
at least Kx in his hand. When I played lower, I sometimes found myself
in that situation where I had, say, a 9 of a flush card on a 4 flush
board with a couple overcards of the flush. I'd always call a bet
there, but almost always fold if I were the "overcaller". I can't
believe how many times that 9 would have taken it.
And as you well know, you don't need to be right very often. You need
to get a gauge on the "cluelessness factor" of the caller in front of
you. Most times you're saying to yourself, "how can he call with me
left to act when a draw just came in?" A lot of times, he's just
clueless.
jacksup
> I'm wondering if I broke that commandment here, and if there's anything
> else I could have done to get a better read on this hand.
>
> I'm in early-middle position with Jc Ts. I open-limp,
This is very questionable. I'd usually fold here. If I don't fold
here, I'm on tilt. You're always worried about your kicker when you
flop top pair, there are many players still to act, and you don't even
have the value of being sooooted. In my opinion, limping here is a
negative EV play.
> five see the flop,
> which is...
>
> 9s 8s 8c
>
> Check, check to me, and I check because I'm severely allergic to betting
> bare straight draws when there is both a flush draw and a pair on board
> (if you disagree, please say so).
Personally, I would bet here. I'm not going to assume I'm up against a
flush draw or a full house. If I bet and get four callers, I'm pretty
sure I am up against a flush draw and probably an eight, but my bet
probably still earned a long-term profit. If I bet and get one or two
callers, I might just be able to steal this thing later. If I check
and it gets checked around, I have less chance to steal, and I'm much
less clear about my game plan for the rest of the hand. If I hit my
hand on the turn, and someone bets, do I raise? What if I just hit a
jack and someone bets? These questions are easier to answer if I bet
the flop.
I think checking and folding is also a fine option, especially if it's
heads-up when the action comes back to me.
Checking and calling isn't terrible either, if you get multi-way
action. Still, my choice would be to try to take control of the hand
by betting. I don't want to see this flop checked around. I want to
invest one small bet now, to save several big bets later.
> Check behind me and button bets, SB
> folds, BB calls, I call, other preflop limper folds.
OK.
>Three to see the
> turn, which is:
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh
>
> Check, I check, button bets again, SB calls, I call.
Fine.
> River:
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh Js
>
> Check, I check (would anyone bet here?)
I'm giving the small blind a flush draw and the button either an 8 or
a 9. Since the flush came, I'm checking. If the jack had been a
diamond, I might bet planning to fold to a raise.
> button calls, SB calls, I fold.
Well, I'm surprised the SB called, as I was expecting a check-raise.
Once the small blind flat calls, I think you have to call. In low
limit, the general rule of thumb is to ignore the first caller. If you
think you're getting the right price to call the bettor, you should
probably call. Getting 9-1 on your money, I think you have to call
here.
> Button has Q9 and SB has T9 so my JT would bave been the winner.
>
> Have at me.
Well, dem's da breaks. We've all done it.
Best,
Matt
A. Prock
>I'm in early-middle position with Jc Ts. I [don't fold]...
^^^^^^^^^^
oops.
Your rivered pair was larger than what the bettor
was representing. Not an easy overcall, but it's
just 1 BB.
- Andrew
Linda K Sherman
>
> >Position is worth a fortune
> > against loose-passive, bad players.
>
> What do you consider a loose-passive, bad player? You open limped
> with JTo, check/called twice, then check/folded the the winner.
Takes one to know one, I guess. :)
Lin
Gary Carson
>>Well the ODDS are 38-to-8
>
>Where do you get 38 from? You know your two cards and the 4 board
cards,
>leaving 46 unknown. Am I missing something?
>
>yoyo
38 ways to miss, 8 ways to make, that's how the 46 unkown cards are
distributed. The probability of making is 8/46. The odds against are
38 to 8.
But, to return to the original question -- with the flush potential,
you don't really have 8 outs, the only way it makes sense to chase the
draw is if you count your overcard outs as having some chance of being
good. If you dont' think hitting an overcard is going to be good then
(given the chances you're drawing dead) the pot isn't really laying
you a good price.
So you hit your draw. Then folded to one bet. That's not a good idea
in most cases.
Gary Carson
http:// garycarson.home.mindspring.com
Peg Smith
on the river as you did.
Peg
T. Chan
<poke...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I try not to make good laydowns on the river in low-limit hold'em, and
>I'm wondering if I broke that commandment here, and if there's anything
>else I could have done to get a better read on this hand.
>
>I'm in early-middle position with Jc Ts. I open-limp, five see the flop,
>which is...
I hate this limp. JT is a strictly button, maybe cutoff hand for me.
>
> 9s 8s 8c
>
>Check, check to me, and I check because I'm severely allergic to betting
>bare straight draws when there is both a flush draw and a pair on board
>(if you disagree, please say so). Check behind me and button bets, SB
>folds, BB calls, I call, other preflop limper folds. Three to see the
>turn, which is:
I don't disagree with checking the flop, but if you're going to call
the flop if someone else bets anyway, you should at least think about
betting. I'd think about betting just to preserve pair outs (get rid
of AT, KJ etc.)
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh
>
>Check, I check, button bets again, SB calls, I call.
You're getting 6:1. This is a very thin, possibly incorrect call. A
seven on the river may be a very bad thing.
>
>River:
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh Js
>
>Check, I check (would anyone bet here?), button calls, SB calls, I fold.
>
>Button has Q9 and SB has T9 so my JT would bave been the winner.
I'd make this fold most of the time against unknown opponents. Now
that I know they're idiots, it won't happen again...next hand.
--
Self-indulgent homepage warning:
http://www.sfu.ca/~tchand/
Linda K Sherman
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2002 05:10:55 GMT, Linda K Sherman
> <poke...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
> I hate this limp. JT is a strictly button, maybe cutoff hand for me.
I still maintain that you're throwing away money if you don't try to
sneak in with JTo in middle position in a loose-passive game. S&M puts
it in Group 5 and they imply that you can even play it in early position
in the right sort of game. You guys who won't play it except on the
button are treating it like a Group 7 or 8 and it's a much a better hand
than that. (Note: this is not an endorsement of S&M hand rankings - I'm
just using them to support my contention that JTo isn't that bad a hand,
especially in this sort of game).
> I don't disagree with checking the flop, but if you're going to call
> the flop if someone else bets anyway, you should at least think about
> betting. I'd think about betting just to preserve pair outs (get rid
> of AT, KJ etc.)
In this type of game, it often won't get rid of hands with two
overcards, so although I don't disagree with what you are saying, in my
mind I was weighing the small gain of betting against the negative
possibility of a raise behind or the positive gain of getting a free
card.
Lin
Linda K Sherman
>
> But, to return to the original question -- with the flush potential,
> you don't really have 8 outs, the only way it makes sense to chase the
> draw is if you count your overcard outs as having some chance of being
> good. If you dont' think hitting an overcard is going to be good then
> (given the chances you're drawing dead) the pot isn't really laying
> you a good price.
>
> So you hit your draw. Then folded to one bet. That's not a good idea
> in most cases.
I think that about sums it up. I can't justify calling the turn unless I
think the J is an out (which I was thinking it was) and when I caught it
I didn't stick to my original read of the hand. The overcaller scared me
out.
I probably also should have discounted the overcall somewhat since that
player might have raised with a full house on the river to ensure
getting the extra bet on the end, and might have bet or check-raised the
turn with 3-of-a-kind or better.
Lin
T. Chan
<poke...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I still maintain that you're throwing away money if you don't try to
>sneak in with JTo in middle position in a loose-passive game. S&M puts
>it in Group 5 and they imply that you can even play it in early position
>in the right sort of game. You guys who won't play it except on the
>button are treating it like a Group 7 or 8 and it's a much a better hand
>than that. (Note: this is not an endorsement of S&M hand rankings - I'm
>just using them to support my contention that JTo isn't that bad a hand,
>especially in this sort of game).
I think HPFAP says something like "the game would need to be almost
perfect to play KJ or QJ in early position". Since JT is obviously
worse than those, you need the loose-passive game to end all
loose-passive games to play it profitably (if it is even possible).
>> I don't disagree with checking the flop, but if you're going to call
>> the flop if someone else bets anyway, you should at least think about
>> betting. I'd think about betting just to preserve pair outs (get rid
>> of AT, KJ etc.)
>
>In this type of game, it often won't get rid of hands with two
>overcards, so although I don't disagree with what you are saying, in my
>mind I was weighing the small gain of betting against the negative
>possibility of a raise behind or the positive gain of getting a free
>card.
Even though you might bet to get a KJ-type hand out, even if they call
they are subsidizing you, of course, since you are 2:1 against making
the straight and probably no worse than 3:1 to win the hand most of
the time.
E Vail
> I still maintain that you're throwing away money if you don't try to
> sneak in with JTo in middle position in a loose-passive game. S&M puts
> it in Group 5 and they imply that you can even play it in early position
> in the right sort of game. You guys who won't play it except on the
> button are treating it like a Group 7 or 8 and it's a much a better hand
> than that.
The problem that I see with this hand in this type of game is that you
are playing for a straight only (with the possible exception of a full
house). The hand will not win as high card, will not win as one pair
(you said yourself that people won't let go of overcards and you're
beat by any AT, AJ, KT, KJ, QT, QJ (all played by most players in this
type of game)). If you do hit two pair, you prob still lose if
there's also an overcard (to bigger two pair or broadway).
Considering that any overcards will likely kill your hand, how
comfortable are you in hitting QK on the flop? Open-ended straight
draw (just what you want) but very dangerous and probably costly.
Well, if you don't want to play this straight draw, now you've even
reduced the number of straights you are looking to hit. JTs for 1 bet
in late position, sure. JTo for 1 bet in any position, rip-off.
IMHO.
E Vail
The Beet Man
<3CE89432...@worldnet.att.net>, Linda K Sherman
<poke...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I try not to make good laydowns on the river in low-limit hold'em, and
>I'm wondering if I broke that commandment here, and if there's anything
>else I could have done to get a better read on this hand.
A simple rule of thumb I learned a while ago is to generally ignore
the first overcall from a loose player. There are exceptions to this
rule when you have a hand that can only beat a bluff, but your hand
here can beat more than just a bluff.
>I'm in early-middle position with Jc Ts. I open-limp, five see the flop,
>which is...
In a loose-passive game, I try to play a lot of hands but JT is
pushing it, especially if you're playing in a raked game. JT is
probably about on par with 65s, K6s, A2s, etc., so I assume you're
playing these hands too, in which case I can't imagine how many hands
you'd be playing on the button.
> 9s 8s 8c
>
>Check, check to me, and I check because I'm severely allergic to betting
>bare straight draws when there is both a flush draw and a pair on board
>(if you disagree, please say so).
You should be more allergic to calling with those straight draws.
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh
>
>Check, I check, button bets again, SB calls, I call.
>
>River:
>
> [9s 8s 8c] Kh Js
>
>Check, I check (would anyone bet here?), button calls, SB calls, I fold.
This hand aptly demonstrates one of the problems with checking and
calling throughout the hand. When you check and call, you have no
idea where you're at. I have no idea what the button was thinking
when he bet the river, but my best guess is that since he bet twice,
he just went ahead and bet a third time. If you'd been betting the
whole way, perhaps the button would have raised the flop, which would
have made the hand a lot easier to play. If he didn't raise the flop,
I suspect you might have had more control of the hand, and if you'd
bet twice and he'd called, there's a good chance that he'd have
checked after you checked the river.
I also question that the game is loose-passive when you have players
value-betting a pair when there are two overcards on the board and the
flush draw from the flop hit on the river.
--
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