Omaha/8 - Raising with the wheel after the river...
Spoody
"career". But no matter my roughly 25 hours of results, it would be
nice to maximize my earn rate, so if I am playing the river
incorrectly I would like to fix it
One situation that I am not entirely sure about is raising on the
river with the nut low. Since this is not a situation a Hold'em
player runs into, I just am not sure if I should worry about other
players with the low. I ran in to the situation twice today, 3
players, bet to me on the river, I raise, a call behind me, original
bettor raises, I call, and call behind me. Nut Flush High from the
original bettor, I have the nut low (A-3) and so does the guy behind
me. (in fact we had the exact same hands (AA34) So the lows get
quarterd and we were basically paying more money to the high. So my
question is, do you only raise on the river if you think you are alone
on your side (high or low)? Or do you only bet the river when you
think you have both the high and the low and possibly could scoop the
pot?
Only other question is do you feel KQJT is a pre flop raising hand?
(suited or not?)
Thx,
Spoods
John Harkness
I think it depends on what your nut low is -- A2 and A3 are such
standard nut lows that in multi-way pots, you're very often quarterd.
But if the nut low is something like 25 or 35, I'd take a shot.
As to the second question, no. Not even double suited
John Harkness
The Beet Man
>I have not played very much Omaha, but I am way in my short Omaha
>"career". But no matter my roughly 25 hours of results, it would be
>nice to maximize my earn rate, so if I am playing the river
>incorrectly I would like to fix it
>
>One situation that I am not entirely sure about is raising on the
>river with the nut low. Since this is not a situation a Hold'em
>player runs into, I just am not sure if I should worry about other
>players with the low. I ran in to the situation twice today, 3
>players, bet to me on the river, I raise, a call behind me, original
>bettor raises, I call, and call behind me. Nut Flush High from the
>original bettor, I have the nut low (A-3) and so does the guy behind
>me. (in fact we had the exact same hands (AA34) So the lows get
>quarterd and we were basically paying more money to the high. So my
>question is, do you only raise on the river if you think you are alone
>on your side (high or low)?
I'm unclear if you had the nut low and an A-5 straight, or just the
nut low. (Just the nut low isn't called a "wheel," a wheel is an A-5
straight.) When you have the nut low and an A-5 straight, you
generally want to raise since you have a high hand. On your good days
you have the bettor tied or beaten and you knock out a small flush
behind you (who folds rather than calls 2 cold.)
>Or do you only bet the river when you
>think you have both the high and the low and possibly could scoop the
>pot?
It depends on a bunch of factors. If a tight player is in the pot and
calling along, you often know they have the nut low as well. My major
concern with betting the river is whether or not I have something for
high. Sometimes a bet allows you to fold a better high and get the
high half with your fairly weak high.
>Only other question is do you feel KQJT is a pre flop raising hand?
>(suited or not?)
In general, I prefer to see the flop cheaply with that hand, but it's
not a bad "mix things up" raising hand. Sometimes I raise with that,
KKQT, and similar hands.
PacPalBuzz
From: spo...@spoody.com (Spoody)
Date: Sun, Sep 14, 2003 18:29
Message-id: <1f885a93.03091...@posting.google.com>
>>
<<"So my question is, do you only raise on the river if you think you are alone
on your side (high or low)? Or do you only bet the river when you think you
have both the high and the low and possibly could scoop the pot?" >>
Spoods - It depends. You have to try to read your opponents to determine if
someone else has the same low as you. Figure on getting quartered using A2 or
A3 from your hand roughly two times for every three times you don't get
quartered. Something like that- and it's not a disaster when you do get
quartered. If you're raising with the nut low and your opponent is raising with
the nut low, you don't want to bet more than someone caught in the middle can
bear. So what to do just depends. not a big deal one way or the other, however.
<<"Only other question is do you feel KQJT is a pre flop raising hand? (suited
or not?)">>
I don't generally raise with it before the flop, but many do - and somtimes I
might raise with it. Note that KQJT may not be worth playing at all if it's not
at least single suited, and you should prefer it to be double suited. When you
hit the flop, you'll have a minimum of two pair with a draw at a straight. Nice
to have a backdoor flush draw too, just in case. But you only hit the flop
about one hand out of four, (something like that) - and then you're not
guaranteed a scooper - or even a winner. You don't want your raise to thin out
the field, but, sure, if you're playing enough oafs who will call your raise -
I'd say to raise before the flop you need a minimum of six opponents who will
call your raise. You need that many opponents calling your raise for two
reasons. (1) If you only connect one time out of four, then three times out of
four you're throwing the hand away after the flop. (2) KQJT is a hand that gets
tied by an opponent almost as often as A2XX and A3XX get tied by opponents -
something like one time out of three, you'll split the high with an opponent.
But the one time out of four you connect with the flop, you'll have gotten the
extra bet from some of your opponents who will tend to fold when the flop is to
your liking. And even though you'll often tie with an opponent for high, it
will usually be for half the pot, rather than a quarter of the pot, because
there will usually not be a low when you make a straight with the hand - and
there will never be a low when you make a full house or quads with the hand.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
TD Lowball
> << Subject: Omaha/8 - Raising with the wheel after the river...
> From: spo...@spoody.com (Spoody)
> Date: Sun, Sep 14, 2003 18:29
> Message-id: <1f885a93.03091...@posting.google.com>
> >>
>
>
> <<"So my question is, do you only raise on the river if you think you are
alone
> on your side (high or low)? Or do you only bet the river when you think you
> have both the high and the low and possibly could scoop the pot?" >>
>
> Spoods - It depends. You have to try to read your opponents to determine if
> someone else has the same low as you. Figure on getting quartered using A2 or
> A3 from your hand roughly two times for every three times you don't get
> quartered. Something like that- and it's not a disaster when you do get
> quartered. If you're raising with the nut low and your opponent is raising
with
> the nut low, you don't want to bet more than someone caught in the middle can
> bear. So what to do just depends. not a big deal one way or the other,
however.
Get quartered is only a serious concern in PLO/8 not limit O/8. In your
average weak O/8 game jam it with the nut lowunless you are almost certain
your are quartered. The more obsucred your low card are the more you jam,
I.e if 3-5 gave you the wheel chances are other folks are counterfieted,
and you can jam harder.
As Russ G noted in his PLO/8post Axx6 is a great hand cause if a wheel is
possible you have it and a 6high straight as well. I always jam preflop
with this hand especilly if it has a suited ace.
> <<"Only other question is do you feel KQJT is a pre flop raising hand?
(suited
> or not?)">>
>
> I don't generally raise with it before the flop, but many do - and somtimes I
> might raise with it. Note that KQJT may not be worth playing at all if it's
not
> at least single suited, and you should prefer it to be double suited. When
you
> hit the flop, you'll have a minimum of two pair with a draw at a straight.
Nice
> to have a backdoor flush draw too, just in case. But you only hit the flop
> about one hand out of four, (something like that) - and then you're not
> guaranteed a scooper - or even a winner. You don't want your raise to thin
out
> the field, but, sure, if you're playing enough oafs who will call your raise
No, very few omaha hands are worth rasing preflop. The high hands
especialy so.
TD Lowball --
_________________________________________________________________
Posted using RecPoker.com - http://www.recpoker.com
Spoody
> On 14 Sep 2003 19:29:14 -0700, spo...@spoody.com (Spoody) wrote:
>
> >I have not played very much Omaha, but I am way in my short Omaha
> >"career". But no matter my roughly 25 hours of results, it would be
> >nice to maximize my earn rate, so if I am playing the river
> >incorrectly I would like to fix it
> >
> >One situation that I am not entirely sure about is raising on the
> >river with the nut low. Since this is not a situation a Hold'em
> >player runs into, I just am not sure if I should worry about other
> >players with the low. I ran in to the situation twice today, 3
> >players, bet to me on the river, I raise, a call behind me, original
> >bettor raises, I call, and call behind me. Nut Flush High from the
> >original bettor, I have the nut low (A-3) and so does the guy behind
> >me. (in fact we had the exact same hands (AA34) So the lows get
> >quarterd and we were basically paying more money to the high. So my
> >question is, do you only raise on the river if you think you are alone
> >on your side (high or low)?
>
> I'm unclear if you had the nut low and an A-5 straight, or just the
> nut low. (Just the nut low isn't called a "wheel," a wheel is an A-5
> straight.) When you have the nut low and an A-5 straight, you
> generally want to raise since you have a high hand. On your good days
> you have the bettor tied or beaten and you knock out a small flush
> behind you (who folds rather than calls 2 cold.)
On hand I described we did have the wheel, but it was pretty obvious
the original bettor had a flush...very tight, and raised when the turn
card was a Q of spades to make 3 spades on the board. We already had
a nut low, but the wheel showed up on the river. The second time this
situation happend I just had the nut low...no wheel possible.
Gregory Raymer
If you're 4-handed, it's only a problem if there are 3 or more lows, as 2
lows tied will return your money. So here you rarely stop jamming. Same
for 5 or more, of course.
If you're 3-handed, if you get quartered, you lose 25% of each dollar you
put in on the river. But, if you win the low alone, you gain 50% for each
dollar. Thus, you should raise if you judge there is less than a 66.66%
chance that you're tied for low. If you think it's higher than that, just
call.
If it's 2-handed, you gain nothing for every extra dollar going in, and lose
half of your money if tied. Obviously, you never raise heads-up with the
nut low UNLESS there is a sufficient chance you will win high or that he
will fold. If you know he won't fold and that you can't win high, even the
nuts is never worth a raise.
As others have mentioned, there are other reasons to sometimes raise the
river with the low. If you have a good/decent high, and your raise might
force out somebody who would've called one bet to win the high, then it's a
great raise. But there is no simple way to discuss the math of these
possibilities. It's easy enough to figure out though.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"Spoody" <spo...@spoody.com> wrote in message
news:1f885a93.03091...@posting.google.com...
Michael Langford
Not even in a loose game, with people who will ignore a raise as far
as calling goes, and like to play for low?
I see a preflop raise as one of the only ways to get money off that
hand. You're dropping it on any hand that a low can get you on really.
MSA1213
>Date: 9/15/03
>If you're 3-handed, if you get quartered, you lose 25% of each dollar you
>put in on the river. But, if you win the low alone, you gain 50% for each
>dollar. Thus, you should raise if you judge there is less than a 66.66%
>chance that you're tied for low. If you think it's higher than that, just
call.
It should be realized that the "3-handed" refers to the number of players who
actually call! If you have no high and all you are going to win is half or a
quarter of the pot, you certainly do not want to raise out 1 or 2 other players
who would otherwise have called.
Novice and very poor players are wonderful at doing this. If they hit quads or
a straight flush, they shine up and raise on the river. They fail to understand
that it may be counterproductive to raise even with a great lock hand. If the
bettor has the other half of the pot, keeping other players in for a call may
be far more important than raising. I seem to save a call in many sessions from
someone warning me off by raising when they hit a powerhouse.
>>From: spo...@spoody.com (Spoody)
Date: 9/14/03
>>Only other question is do you feel KQJT is a pre flop raising hand?
>>(suited or not?)
>As to the second question, no. Not even double suited
>John Harkness
John,
If you never raise with that hand, am I safe when I play against you to
consider every raise to be AAxy (doublesuited or x a low card) or A2xy with x a
low card or A34y with the ace suited?
Isn't it worthwhile to raise with KQJT at times just to keep opponents guessing
a bit more what your raises are?
And in late position with many in preflop, or in a game with a lot of callers
and few raisers preflop, don't you just about get full value from the raise
anyway?
I love it in late position with many in because most of the low cards are
probably in the other players' hands and the board can more likely be high
cards.
marc