Angle plays, and out angling the anglers
monte christensen
is ethical. I personally wish there was no angling in poker, but there
is. Many of the really bad players lose quite oftena and can lose some
serious money. They will take any advantage of the game if you don't look
out for yourself. The dealer will correct some errors but these players
have gotten good at getting things past the dealers. And I realize that
the dealer can't watch everything. I have seen people short the pot with
splashing, trying to stay in hands without calling bets, fake bets, pull
chips off the table, add chips to a stack during play, lie, steal chips
from a another's stack, etc...
If these things didn't effect me I wouldn't care but they often do. Just
the other night I watched a new player sit down at the 20-40 hold-em game
and say he would wait for the button to pass him over to post his blind.
I know this player is a very dishonest player and have seen him angle all
of the time. Well they changed dealers and the new dealer wasn't told not
to deal him in. When he got dealt in I spoke up and said he had to post a
blind. He of course threw in his cards( after looking at them ) saying he
would wait. I am sure that if he liked his hand he would have posted
though, so he got an edge in the game there. But others were mad at me
since someone had AKs and now had to throw it back in.
It wasn't my fault. The dealer who left should have pointed this fact
out. I am sure the player knew what he was doing by his reaction and his
previously trying this same thing. I also see players who miscall their
hands on the end some of the time hoping other players to much their
hands. Against these type of players I will pull any legal move I can
since I know they will do the same against me. I think you have to defend
yourself or nobody else will for certain.
I have given back a entire 20-40 pot to a new player who turned over his
cards and one of them hit the muck. I did this since I knew he would do
the same for me. But when the dealer scooped up the anglers pot last
night I refused to give it back. Even though the dealer make the mistake
at 10-20 he would never do the same for me. I just consider this the only
way to deal with people like him. It also gave me great satisfaction to
make him post and then see him loose a pot. Of course he went on tilt and
started to raise me every hand. I actually like that and can deal with it
quite nicely. So putting him on tilt was also a benefit to me.
--
Monte Christensen | "Work is causing me to lose my religion"
email : mon...@microsoft.com | -- personal adaptaion of REM
Opinions expressed do not reflect those of my employer
Marshall Lake
>is ethical. I personally wish there was no angling in poker, but there
>is. Many of the really bad players lose quite oftena and can lose some
>serious money. They will take any advantage of the game if you don't look
>out for yourself. The dealer will correct some errors but these players
>have gotten good at getting things past the dealers. And I realize that
>the dealer can't watch everything. I have seen people short the pot with
>splashing, trying to stay in hands without calling bets, fake bets, pull
>chips off the table, add chips to a stack during play, lie, steal chips
>from a another's stack, etc...
I would like to put together a list of various angling techniques. Maybe
the list should be broken up into multiple subjects like ...
Illegal Angling
Legal But Unethical Angling
Legal and Ethical Angling
others?
If people would like to post or email me their comments and opinions I
will post a composite.
--
Marshall Lake - TEAM Software - ml...@dgs.dgsys.com
RICK540
freeze when it is their turn to act. They also hide their cards in behind
their stack, so that people will act out of turn behind them, thus gaining
info.. I've seen them wait for 2 or 3 novices, like me, to toss away my
hand, then, after they see there is little comptetion, they raise... Is
this just good strategy, or is it unethical? Ric...@aol.com
Jim Karlinski
I don't know if I'm just a scumbag but there are two "angles" that I use
regularly when I'm playing low limit holdem.
1. When I'm to the right of the button and looking at a marginal call I
pause for a second at look to my left. People act very differently when
they intended to fold vs. when they plan to raise or call. Folders may
have their cards ready to chuck, while raiseers are sitting upright, not
moving. Sometimes, when you alter the pace of the game like this, you can
induce the person to your left to act out of turn. I say something to the
effect of "act in turn", but by then of course the damage is already
done, and I've accomplished my mission. am I an asswipe cheater? You make
the call.
2. This is MUCH more questionable, and Podium Paul at the Taj even wen t
so far as to correct me once [although no other player or dealer has ever
said anything]. If I'm head up one the last round, acting last, and bet
into, I flip up my cards and show them to the bettor if its a
questionable call. Then I study their reaction before I decide what to do
[I hae already decided NOT to raise in this situation]. Many times, if I
have the guy beat he'll muchk his cards. I learned this trick after it
was pulled on me an a hand where I had AK high, I bet, guy with AQ high
showed me his cards, when I realized I won I smiled and showed him my
cards, only afterwards did I realize it cost me a bet. This is probably
considered unethical by some players, but I considere it part of
positional advantage. Appearently the management at the Taj disagrees
with me.
The voice of conscience,
Jim Karlinski
Aesop
Robert Copps
writes:
>
> Msg-ID: <4gc1vv$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
> References: <4g891n$9...@DGS.dgsys.com>
> Posted: 20 Feb 1996 03:50:07 -0500
>
> Org. : America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
>
> Question about Angle plays... I have seen players just sit there, that
> is,
> freeze when it is their turn to act. They also hide their cards in behind
> their stack, so that people will act out of turn behind them, thus
> gaining
> info.. I've seen them wait for 2 or 3 novices, like me, to toss away my
> hand, then, after they see there is little comptetion, they raise... Is
> this just good strategy, or is it unethical? Ric...@aol.com
If two players have acted after them and they did not call for time, you
should insist that they have lost the right to raise or bet for that round.
--
--Bob.
fi...@datasync.com
> I don't know if I'm just a scumbag
I take this to mean "Sure I'm a scumbag, but I may be much more"
>but there are two "angles" that I use regularly when I'm playing low limit holdem.
>
> 1. When I'm to the right of the button and looking at a marginal call I
> pause for a second at look to my left.... am I an asswipe cheater? You make
> the call.
OK, I'll give you that one. As long as you're not holding up the game.
> 2..... If I'm head up one the last round, acting last, and bet
> into, I flip up my cards and show them to the bettor if its a
> questionable call.
This I consider slightly over the edge. In some tournaments, this
would be cause for losing the pot.
> The voice of conscience,
Uh huh.
> Jim Karlinski
Keith Fichtemaier | For an alarmingly large segment of our society,
| the internet provides that quality of existence
fi...@datasync.com | that used to be referred to as having a life...
Beavis and Butthead on AOL: "Huh-huh huh-huh. Newsgroups. Cool!"
Jeffrey L. Woods
>
> > 2..... If I'm head up one the last round, acting last, and bet
> > into, I flip up my cards and show them to the bettor if its a
> > questionable call.
>
> This I consider slightly over the edge. In some tournaments, this
> would be cause for losing the pot.
Keith, isn't this COMMON practice in the biggest tourneys? I seem to recall that someone pulled
this on Russ Hamilton in '94 -- facing a substantial raise heads up, the player yet to act turned up
their cards and watched Russ carefully for a giveaway before finally folding. I may have the action
wrong, or who was angling whom, but I just watched this video the other day, and KNOW it happened
one way or another. And string bets? Never say so many as on the WSOP final table vids. It
happened over and over again that a player would stack up a certain number of chips, go back to the
stack, get more, put some back, and THEN declare their bet, even though the stack/bet was clearly
being placed well in front of the player's total stack. Remember one instance (forget which year)
that a player had a called bet stacked way out there, and the dealer reached over to scoop it, and
the player said to the effect of "Wait, I might wanna raise". String bet if I EVER saw one. But
they let it go (he did raise, and it was allowed).
Mike Schneider
Playing Omaha8, player on my right bets. I know I've got a lock, and I really
want to get the player on my left to throw in a bet. I pick up the chips, then
peak at my cards tentatively, then finally call. The guy on my left, who looked
like he might fold, calls with second best hand. :)
7stud, player on my right has a pair of aces showing, I have a pair of kings
showing. I don't have two pair. I don't think he has two pair. I know that
if I bet, he'll be sure that I have two pair and that I suspect he doesn't.
He checks, I bet, he folds. Throws a *fit* when he sees all I had was a pair
of kings. Ai-yah!
--
Mike Schneider ****** sch...@tellabs.com
53x Software Development ------ Aerial Assault Volleyball Club
Tellabs Operations, Inc. ****** Check out my volleyball page!
http://www.xnet.com/~schneid/vball.shtml
Charlie
>Question about Angle plays..
My regular game is at the Commerce in L.A. I play with a couple of
old birds who use concealing hand technique before the flop to get
action behind them. What I do is when they sit down is inform the
players to his left of what he does and why he does it. If he ask me
if I am calling him a cheat my reply is YES!
Dave Horwitz
: 1. When I'm to the right of the button and looking at a marginal call I
: pause for a second at look to my left. People act very differently when
: 2. This is MUCH more questionable, and Podium Paul at the Taj even wen t
: said anything]. If I'm head up one the last round, acting last, and bet
: into, I flip up my cards and show them to the bettor if its a
1) perfectly legitimate... you get a reasonable time to act when its your
turn and you can use it to look at your opponent on your left.
2) In all the games in all the clubs I play at exposing cards is allowed
when HEADS UP (definitely not if more than two players are in the pot).
Although I believe the written rules at one of the clubs prohibit exposing
cards the dealers and floormen take the stance that this is acceptable
when heads up because it only affects you when you give information to
your opponent. I will often expose large pairs when I think my opponent
is on a draw and has (or is close to having) odds to call. Many times
they will fold the hand even though they have pot odds to call. At NL
if I am pretty sure I have my opponent beaten and they are having a hard
time deciding to call my large bet I'll offer to expose one of my cards
(their choice) for some amount of chips (maybe 1/4 of the bet) before
they make their decision -- usually make this proposition when I get
the feeling they are on the verge of folding.
-Quick
________________________________________________________________________
Dave Horwitz Telecom Platform Operation
Hewlett-Packard Company E-Mail: da...@cup.hp.com
19420 Homestead Road, M/S 43-UD Voice: (408) 447-2991
Cupertino, CA 95014 Fax: (408) 447-3878
Dan Kimberg
: If I'm head up one the last round, acting last, and bet
: [...] This is probably
: positional advantage.
although i've never seen the rule applied, i've heard that many
cardrooms now consider a hand revealed by a player before showdown to
be dead. apparently it's not the rule at the taj (unless you were
also enjoying your advantage as a regular), but i think any move
calculated to take advantage of a gap in the rules is at best
unethical.
your other example seemed like a textbook example of looking for a
tell. seems fair enough to me.
dan
Steve Zolotow
anglers>, '"Jeffrey L. Woods" <je...@delta.com>' wrote:
>And string bets? Never say so many as on the WSOP final table vids. It
>happened over and over again that a player would stack up a certain number
of
>chips, go back to the
>stack, get more, put some back, and THEN declare their bet, even though
the
>stack/bet was clearly
>being placed well in front of the player's total stack. Remember one
instance
>(forget which year)
>that a player had a called bet stacked way out there, and the dealer
reached
>over to scoop it, and
>the player said to the effect of "Wait, I might wanna raise". String bet
if I
>EVER saw one. But
>they let it go (he did raise, and it was allowed).
I'm sure you misinterpreted what you saw. As a regular WSOP participant I
can assure you that string bets are not permitted. Frequently someone will
say raise or gesture raise (usually a fist with thumb out and up raised
up), then match his opponents stack, then go to his stack to push out the
amount of the raise. When the amount being raised is large enough to
require returning to the raisers stack more than once, they will indicate
that their raise is not yet completed, either by physically leaving one
hand on the chips already pushed foward or by making some statement to the
effect that their raise totals x amount or is not yet complete.
Steve Zee
Tad Perry
Living in Seattle, I prefer the Indian casinos but there are also what
are known as cardrooms. Games in cardrooms are player dealt in general
and that leads to even more angles. For instance if a player passes
the deal both the dealer and player(s) left of dealer are required to
blind. But the dealer will often not put it in hoping no one will
notice so he can muck his hand for free (never seen a female pull
this, thus the use of "he").
Now what I do to these people is wait for them to muck their hand and
immediately demand that they blind before they continue the deal. They
get pretty mad sometimes too. Usually I say, "Hey, don't even bother
trying to short the pot or skip your blind cuz I'm watcing you." I've
seen players I've done this too ask for a floor ruling to either get
their hand back or not blind and you know what happens: they lose
their blind.
Another angle you have to watch out for is this one: a player on the
river will hide that he has a hand and if there is a bet will wait for
everyone to fold. When the apparent winner mucks his own hand and
begins raking the pot (no center dealer means you stand up and take it
yourself), the person hiding their hand will raise and say: "Hey, I
still have a hand." A lot of floor personnel have experience with
this and 86 the offender (sometimes) but they have a hard time
awarding a pot to a player without a hand that hasn't even been shown.
That happened to me once with a twist. I had two pair and the river
came with a one-card straight possible. There were three opponents so
when checked to me (last to act), I turned my hand face up. Two
players mucked their hand and I didn't notice that the non-regular
still had a hand, so I threw my hand away and started to rake the
chips. He suddenly bet and says: "I bet." Knowing the rules and the
probable ruling I called the bet without a hand and called for a
ruling. The idiot trying this angle insisted I couldn't call without a
hand. The floor determined that everyone at the table had seen my hand
and that I had had two pair (the board was not mucked). The floor
demanded that the called hand be shown. He refused to show, further
indicating an angle. He ended up mucking his hand and conceding the
pot without showing. I told him if he was going to try that shit he
should do it against an unshown hand. He was pissed off.
One other one I've seen is this: Player A bets on the river on a bluff
or weak hand and Player B thinks a little too long and Player A gets
up and takes the board and mucks it. Without a board to go with the
floor generally has to award the pot to the angler.
Notice that most of these angles could never occur with a center
dealer present.
Tad Perry t...@eskimo.com
Fritz Owens
etiquette and rules. Just ASK the dealer if it's all right to hide your
cards behind your stack and of course you'll get a dirty look from the
perpetrators but what else can they do? And once the dealer has made the
call EVERYONE else is going to be watching them. It is also up to the
dealer to prod a slow player who "freezes" into playing in a reasonable
amount of time. I'm sure the poker room management has already trained
their dealers to recognize what it a "reasonable" amount of time.
As far as your reference to ethics goes, I have a choice when it comes my
turn to bet: call, raise or fold. This applies regardless of what anyone
else has done. Remember one of the cardinal rules is to play your hand,
not someone else's!
__ _ . ___ ___
|_ |_) | | /
| | \ | | /__
fo...@www.gnofn.org
-------------------------original message below-------------
On 20 Feb 1996, RICK540 wrote:
John Uchida
First, in a center dealer game, a player intentionally bets out of turn
to get a reaction out of the opponent. The dealer will usually shove
the money back and back the action back to first player. If the first
player made a move to fold, and then checks, the out of turn bettor
makes a bet. If the 1st player made a move for chips, and then checks,
the out of turn bettor now checks if he was on a semi-bluff.
The 2nd is much like the first, except the out of turn bettor was just
trying for a free card, and will check if given the chance.
The 3rd is when a player intentionally raises out of turn with players
still to act in the hope of getting them to fold. When the action
reaches the out of turn raiser, he just calls.
I've seen these plays in the Tulalip and Muckleshoot Casinos in
Washington state playing in 10-20 to 20-40 hold-em games. The card room
managers tell me this should not be allowed, but 95% of the dealers
don't have a clue, and most of the floor people don't know much more
than the dealers. The last time this happened, I was out of the hand
when a particularly unsavory player tried manuever #1 in a 10-20 game
against a fairly new player up from the 4-8 table. I complained to the
dealer and the dealer refused to call the floorman over. 2 of the other
players told me that I couldn't complain because I wasn't in the hand.
Later, I talked to the floorman on duty but he didn't have a clue so I
guess it didn't make any difference that the dealer didn't call him
over. (P.S. that dealer is never getting a tip from me in the future)
John Uchida
Ramsey
be a consistent rule that if a player bets out of turn then they are
stopped from betting on that round if it is checked to them. (They can
call or raise a bet) This is contrary to my experience in the US - am I
right?
One angle is to bet out of turn when weak or on a draw hoping to
frighten the others into checking. They gleefully tell you you can't bet
and you get the free card as planned.
When someone bets a similar move is to raise when you don't have
sufficient chips for the raise. The dealer will disallow the raise and
return your chips but you might cause players beind you to fold and you
may cause the bettor to check on the next round.
Incidentally a firm rule in the UK is that players are not allowed to
make any comments during a hand whether they are in the hand or not. I
would be interested in views as to whether this rule or the US allowance
of coffee-housing makes for a better game.
--
Ramsey
sjri...@sjrindex.demon.co.uk
Turnpike evaluation. For information, email: in...@turnpike.com
Jeff Woods
SZ>can assure you that string bets are not permitted. Frequently someone will
SZ>say raise or gesture raise (usually a fist with thumb out and up raised
I'll watch the tapes again, and let you know exactly where to look, and
will watch for the gestures you mentioned. I'm real sure it wasn't
there, though, 'cause even the dealer thought the bet was complete.
Jeff Woods | CIS: 71035,2167 | Internet EMail: je...@delta.com
deltaComm Dev. | Fido: 1:151/107 | Direct BBS: 919-481-9399 v.34
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Steve Zolotow
held to an action out of turn. Thus if I'm thinking of betting and you bet
out of turn, I can now check and then when you are forced to bet, raise.
(This rule punishes angle shooters and inattentive players.) If I bet
anyway, then you may take whatever action you like.
--
Steve Zee