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OT : What if the NFL Played by Teachers' Rules?
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mo_charles
Oct 4, 2011, 8:25:23 AM10/4/11
to
fran tarkenton wrote an interesting piece:
"Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each
player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about
tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter
whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For
every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only
difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few
years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third
season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire,
except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.
Let's face the truth about this alternate reality: The on-field product
would steadily decline. Why bother playing harder or better and risk
getting hurt?"
if you sensitivities ignore all the rest, READ THIS ONLY:
"Inflation-adjusted spending per student in the United States has nearly
tripled since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
government subsidies = expensive shit.
mo_charles
--------
"Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each
player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about
tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter
whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For
every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only
difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few
years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third
season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire,
except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.
Let's face the truth about this alternate reality: The on-field product
would steadily decline. Why bother playing harder or better and risk
getting hurt?"
if you sensitivities ignore all the rest, READ THIS ONLY:
"Inflation-adjusted spending per student in the United States has nearly
tripled since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation
and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
government subsidies = expensive shit.
mo_charles
--------
mo_charles
Oct 4, 2011, 8:28:52 AM10/4/11
to
mo_charles
_____________________________________________________________________
VegasJerry
Oct 4, 2011, 9:38:41 AM10/4/11
to
form a union if they hadn't been fucking teachers by firing them just
before they retired. You notice that even the football players have a
union? Hello? You guy been head butting too much?
Your own management tells you that 'unions are bad,' and you drink the
cool aid while they laugh at you.
Jerry 'n Vegas
____________________________________________________________________
mo_charles
Oct 4, 2011, 9:48:42 AM10/4/11
to
On Oct 4 2011 7:38 AM, VegasJerry wrote:
> On Oct 4 2011 5:25 AM, mo_charles wrote:
>
> > fran tarkenton wrote an interesting piece:
> >
> > "Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each
> > player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about
> > tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter
> > whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For
> > every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only
> > difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few
> > years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third
> > season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire,
> > except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.
> >
> > Let's face the truth about this alternate reality: The on-field product
> > would steadily decline. Why bother playing harder or better and risk
> > getting hurt?"
> >
> > if you sensitivities ignore all the rest, READ THIS ONLY:
> >
> > "Inflation-adjusted spending per student in the United States has nearly
> > tripled since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation
> > and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
> > Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
> >
> >
> > government subsidies = expensive shit.
>
> On Oct 4 2011 5:25 AM, mo_charles wrote:
>
> > fran tarkenton wrote an interesting piece:
> >
> > "Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each
> > player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about
> > tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter
> > whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For
> > every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only
> > difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few
> > years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third
> > season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire,
> > except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.
> >
> > Let's face the truth about this alternate reality: The on-field product
> > would steadily decline. Why bother playing harder or better and risk
> > getting hurt?"
> >
> > if you sensitivities ignore all the rest, READ THIS ONLY:
> >
> > "Inflation-adjusted spending per student in the United States has nearly
> > tripled since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation
> > and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
> > Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
> >
> >
> > government subsidies = expensive shit.
>
> What stupid, Rush Limbaugh, bullshit. The teacher wouldn't have needed to
> form a union if they hadn't been fucking teachers by firing them just
> before they retired. You notice that even the football players have a
> union? Hello? You guy been head butting too much?
>
> Your own management tells you that 'unions are bad,' and you drink the
> cool aid while they laugh at you.
my management laughing at me, that's definitely happened.
> form a union if they hadn't been fucking teachers by firing them just
> before they retired. You notice that even the football players have a
> union? Hello? You guy been head butting too much?
>
> Your own management tells you that 'unions are bad,' and you drink the
> cool aid while they laugh at you.
mo_charles
------
bratt
Oct 4, 2011, 9:52:44 AM10/4/11
to
knows what Rush Limbaugh.
--------
Will in New Haven
Oct 4, 2011, 12:01:31 PM10/4/11
to
with people for whose campaigns they can provide money and volunteer
workers and for whom they can have their members vote, although
there's no certainty once inside the voting booth.
If the alternative is to not allow unions, I would rather the status
quo but some reform would be welcome.
--
Will in New Haven
DDawgster
Oct 4, 2011, 2:19:25 PM10/4/11
to
there would be no running from the scissor formation
-----
-----
Mossingen
Oct 4, 2011, 2:52:17 PM10/4/11
to
"mo_charles" <harry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jiarl8x...@recgroups.com...
The analogy between NFL/athletes and teachers is bogus. If you want to make
it completely relevant then all teachers should have complete control over
all students, every aspect of their lives, choose their parents for them,
where they live, how they dress, who their friends are, and what activities
they do in their spare time.
You've launched into teachers before and I think you still view teaching as
something that is quantifiable like yards per rush or the number passes
caught on a football field. An athlete is in complete control of his body
and his play. If he doesn't perform well, then he needs to get more fit,
study the game harder, use a different technique, or do something else to
enhance his performance.
The fallacy you've trotted out is that this is similar to a teacher and the
test scores of students. Good teachers can make a difference, but kids have
so many other variables that affect their educations (parent involvement
being the major one) that the conservative line of correlating test scores
to teacher ability is just bogus. It doesn't work that way.
If we really wanted to increase test scores, we'd do away with three months
of summer vacation like many other countries.
news:jiarl8x...@recgroups.com...
it completely relevant then all teachers should have complete control over
all students, every aspect of their lives, choose their parents for them,
where they live, how they dress, who their friends are, and what activities
they do in their spare time.
You've launched into teachers before and I think you still view teaching as
something that is quantifiable like yards per rush or the number passes
caught on a football field. An athlete is in complete control of his body
and his play. If he doesn't perform well, then he needs to get more fit,
study the game harder, use a different technique, or do something else to
enhance his performance.
The fallacy you've trotted out is that this is similar to a teacher and the
test scores of students. Good teachers can make a difference, but kids have
so many other variables that affect their educations (parent involvement
being the major one) that the conservative line of correlating test scores
to teacher ability is just bogus. It doesn't work that way.
If we really wanted to increase test scores, we'd do away with three months
of summer vacation like many other countries.
mo_charles
Oct 4, 2011, 3:42:16 PM10/4/11
to
your argument is that teachers barely matter; i'm not that dour. i want
to end the quiet mugging of taxpayers by shit performers.
mo_charles
_______________________________________________________________________�
DDawgster
Oct 4, 2011, 3:48:25 PM10/4/11
to
there would be a lot of 'holding calls" during class changes in the high
school
-----
school
-----
DDawgster
Oct 4, 2011, 3:48:54 PM10/4/11
to
all the Goths would be kickers
> Apparently I see no reason for Perry to have lied well over a year ago..
Another gem from Alim Nassor
____________________________________________________________________
> Apparently I see no reason for Perry to have lied well over a year ago..
Another gem from Alim Nassor
____________________________________________________________________
Clave
Oct 4, 2011, 3:50:53 PM10/4/11
to
news:o54sl8x...@recgroups.com...
Let's hear your idea of an objective performance metric then.
Jim
Jim
Iceman
Oct 4, 2011, 3:56:34 PM10/4/11
to
news:o54sl8x...@recgroups.com...
A school's performance is dependent much more on its students and their
parents than on its teachers.
parents than on its teachers.
Tim Norfolk
Oct 4, 2011, 10:36:11 PM10/4/11
to
On Oct 4, 8:25 am, "mo_charles" <harrybal...@gmail.com> wrote:
the world, I am not sure that teachers are the problem. There are
many, including this bizarre idea that a 'good' teacher can teach
anything to anyone.
Now, for the free market folks out there, why do private schools on
average underperform public schools, and cost more? This includes
charter school systems, and even homeschooling.
mo_charles
Oct 5, 2011, 1:08:20 PM10/5/11
to
On Oct 4 2011 1:56 PM, Iceman wrote:
> > your argument is that teachers barely matter; i'm not that dour. i want
> > to end the quiet mugging of taxpayers by shit performers.
>
> A school's performance is dependent much more on its students and their
> parents than on its teachers.
if they matter so little, why allow them to rip off silent tax payers?
> > your argument is that teachers barely matter; i'm not that dour. i want
> > to end the quiet mugging of taxpayers by shit performers.
>
> A school's performance is dependent much more on its students and their
> parents than on its teachers.
mo_charles
________________________________________________________________________
mo_charles
Oct 5, 2011, 2:04:30 PM10/5/11
to
On Oct 4 2011 8:36 PM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> > fran tarkenton wrote an interesting piece:
> >
> > "Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each
> > player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about
> > tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter
> > whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For
> > every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only
> > difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few
> > years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third
> > season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire,
> > except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.
> >
> > Let's face the truth about this alternate reality: The on-field product
> > would steadily decline. Why bother playing harder or better and risk
> > getting hurt?"
> >
> > if you sensitivities ignore all the rest, READ THIS ONLY:
> >
> > "Inflation-adjusted spending per student in the United States has nearly
> > tripled since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation
> > and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
> > Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
> >
> > government subsidies = expensive shit.
>
> > fran tarkenton wrote an interesting piece:
> >
> > "Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each
> > player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about
> > tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter
> > whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For
> > every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only
> > difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few
> > years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third
> > season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire,
> > except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.
> >
> > Let's face the truth about this alternate reality: The on-field product
> > would steadily decline. Why bother playing harder or better and risk
> > getting hurt?"
> >
> > if you sensitivities ignore all the rest, READ THIS ONLY:
> >
> > "Inflation-adjusted spending per student in the United States has nearly
> > tripled since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation
> > and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
> > Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
> >
> > government subsidies = expensive shit.
>
> I've seen this argument again and again. While the US underperforms in
> the world, I am not sure that teachers are the problem. There are
> many, including this bizarre idea that a 'good' teacher can teach
> anything to anyone.
>
> Now, for the free market folks out there, why do private schools on
> average underperform public schools, and cost more? This includes
> charter school systems, and even homeschooling.
why do you keep trotting out this made up "stat"?
> the world, I am not sure that teachers are the problem. There are
> many, including this bizarre idea that a 'good' teacher can teach
> anything to anyone.
>
> Now, for the free market folks out there, why do private schools on
> average underperform public schools, and cost more? This includes
> charter school systems, and even homeschooling.
mo_charles
_____________________________________________________________________
number6
Oct 5, 2011, 2:27:13 PM10/5/11
to
On Oct 4, 10:36 pm, Tim Norfolk <timsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I've seen this argument again and again. While the US underperforms in
> the world, I am not sure that teachers are the problem. There are
> many, including this bizarre idea that a 'good' teacher can teach
> anything to anyone.
>
There was a study ... I'll let you find it because you found that
>
> I've seen this argument again and again. While the US underperforms in
> the world, I am not sure that teachers are the problem. There are
> many, including this bizarre idea that a 'good' teacher can teach
> anything to anyone.
>
public schools outperforms private schools drivel ...
In the study they looked at the average class ranking for various
positions out of college with Bachelor's degrees...
Engineers - Chemists - Biologists - Accountants -Teachers - etc.
guess where the teachers ranked ...
mo_charles
Oct 5, 2011, 3:35:19 PM10/5/11
to
and a million+ actual teachers. why pretend they're "skills" aren't
easily replicated?
mo_charles
_______________________________________________________________________
Tim Norfolk
Oct 5, 2011, 8:02:22 PM10/5/11
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
It's not, it's based on ACT scores through all 3 possibilities.
Tim Norfolk
Oct 5, 2011, 8:03:16 PM10/5/11
to
involving teachers.
Tim Norfolk
Oct 5, 2011, 8:05:06 PM10/5/11
to
ran short of teachers. One VP with a Ph.D. in Physics took me up on
it. He quit after 3 weeks because it was too much work.
ChrisRobin
Oct 6, 2011, 1:26:11 PM10/6/11
to
On Oct 4 2011 10:36 PM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> Now, for the free market folks out there, why do private schools on
> average underperform public schools, and cost more? This includes
> charter school systems, and even homeschooling.
Can you back this up with some actual datat? Because if so, it'd pretty
> Now, for the free market folks out there, why do private schools on
> average underperform public schools, and cost more? This includes
> charter school systems, and even homeschooling.
much be the ultimate bitchslap to mo's "bad teacher" schtick.
----
mo_charles
Oct 6, 2011, 2:25:33 PM10/6/11
to
On Oct 6 2011 11:26 AM, ChrisRobin wrote:
> > Now, for the free market folks out there, why do private schools on
> > average underperform public schools, and cost more? This includes
> > charter school systems, and even homeschooling.
>
> Can you back this up with some actual datat? Because if so, it'd pretty
> much be the ultimate bitchslap to mo's "bad teacher" schtick.
he'll claim he can, but he can't. the reasons are very obvious.
> > Now, for the free market folks out there, why do private schools on
> > average underperform public schools, and cost more? This includes
> > charter school systems, and even homeschooling.
>
> Can you back this up with some actual datat? Because if so, it'd pretty
> much be the ultimate bitchslap to mo's "bad teacher" schtick.
mo_charles
________________________________________________________________________
Tim Norfolk
Oct 6, 2011, 3:37:34 PM10/6/11
to
apologize, or do what you usually do, which is change the subject?
mo_charles
Oct 6, 2011, 3:58:14 PM10/6/11
to
On Oct 6 2011 1:37 PM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> > he'll claim he can, but he can't. the reasons are very obvious.
>
> > he'll claim he can, but he can't. the reasons are very obvious.
>
> When I have time to find the reference, will you acknowledge it and
> apologize, or do what you usually do, which is change the subject?
you can dig up a stat and pretend it means whatever you want. there's no
> apologize, or do what you usually do, which is change the subject?
question which schools are the finest in the nation ... they're ALL
PRIVATE.
mo_charles
-----
Iceman
Oct 6, 2011, 4:39:07 PM10/6/11
to
news:mrd1m8x...@recgroups.com...
A tiny number of elite private schools at the top of the list doesn't prove
the general point - schools like Dalton and Andover enroll a totally
insignificant percentage of the total US student population.
Maybe inside the Chicago city limits private schools are better than public,
but that's not the whole picture when you look around the country. Most
areas that are at least middle-class have basically decent public schools
and in many cases very good ones. Charter school results are very varied,
but on average they do about as well as public schools with similar student
bodies. Many private schools aren't good at all - some of them are just for
rich fuck-ups, and many religious schools do a poor job of teaching academic
subjects. And some of the best urban public magnet schools are competitive
with the top private schools.
the general point - schools like Dalton and Andover enroll a totally
insignificant percentage of the total US student population.
Maybe inside the Chicago city limits private schools are better than public,
but that's not the whole picture when you look around the country. Most
areas that are at least middle-class have basically decent public schools
and in many cases very good ones. Charter school results are very varied,
but on average they do about as well as public schools with similar student
bodies. Many private schools aren't good at all - some of them are just for
rich fuck-ups, and many religious schools do a poor job of teaching academic
subjects. And some of the best urban public magnet schools are competitive
with the top private schools.
mo_charles
Oct 6, 2011, 5:04:39 PM10/6/11
to
On Oct 6 2011 2:39 PM, Iceman wrote:
> > you can dig up a stat and pretend it means whatever you want. there's no
> > question which schools are the finest in the nation ... they're ALL
> > PRIVATE.
>
> A tiny number of elite private schools at the top of the list doesn't prove
> the general point - schools like Dalton and Andover enroll a totally
> insignificant percentage of the total US student population.
>
> Maybe inside the Chicago city limits private schools are better than public,
> but that's not the whole picture when you look around the country. Most
> areas that are at least middle-class have basically decent public schools
> and in many cases very good ones. Charter school results are very varied,
> but on average they do about as well as public schools with similar student
> bodies. Many private schools aren't good at all - some of them are just for
> rich fuck-ups, and many religious schools do a poor job of teaching academic
> subjects. And some of the best urban public magnet schools are competitive
> with the top private schools.
private schools aren't required to prep for tests tim and government
> > you can dig up a stat and pretend it means whatever you want. there's no
> > question which schools are the finest in the nation ... they're ALL
> > PRIVATE.
>
> A tiny number of elite private schools at the top of the list doesn't prove
> the general point - schools like Dalton and Andover enroll a totally
> insignificant percentage of the total US student population.
>
> Maybe inside the Chicago city limits private schools are better than public,
> but that's not the whole picture when you look around the country. Most
> areas that are at least middle-class have basically decent public schools
> and in many cases very good ones. Charter school results are very varied,
> but on average they do about as well as public schools with similar student
> bodies. Many private schools aren't good at all - some of them are just for
> rich fuck-ups, and many religious schools do a poor job of teaching academic
> subjects. And some of the best urban public magnet schools are competitive
> with the top private schools.
value. the elite prep schools are the finest high schools in the country.
the top ten colleges / universities / liberal arts schools are private.
there's just no contest. why there's such an ass kicking is open to
debate (self-selecting, etc), but tim keeps trotting out bullshit.
this one vp (LOL at that) with a phd in physics who couldn't hack it as a
teacher ...
mo_charles
_____________________________________________________________________
Iceman
Oct 6, 2011, 7:21:22 PM10/6/11
to
"mo_charles" <harry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7oh1m8x...@recgroups.com...
Similar to high schools, the fact that the top 10 colleges are all private
doesn't say anything about the whole picture of public versus private
colleges in general. How many thousands of colleges are there in the US,
serving how many millions of students? And many of the better state
universities would be near the very top of that distribution even if they
aren't quite as good as the much smaller and better-endowed Ivies -
UC-Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, Texas-Austin. At the
graduate level, some state universities' specific graduate programs actually
are the best or among the very best.
> there's just no contest. why there's such an ass kicking is open to
> debate (self-selecting, etc), but tim keeps trotting out bullshit.
actually pretty good despite being run by government bureaucrats and staffed
by unionized teachers?
Tim Norfolk
Oct 6, 2011, 8:38:01 PM10/6/11
to
'real' answer, which is why you are such an idealogue. Nonetheless,
here is some of the readily available data:
The issue is rather complicated, as there is a lot of confounding,
compounded by the fact that private schools do not have the same
reporting requirements as public schools. However, there is some data
which can be extracted.
1. Charter schools.
http://credo.stanford.edu/reports/MULTIPLE_CHOICE_CREDO.pdf gives a
careful study of ‘value-added’ by charter schools. Included are the
following gems from page 44:
"...more than half the charters have less growth in learning than what
their students
would have realized if they had remained in traditional schools in
their community."
and
"Across the full set of 2403 charter schools, 46 percent were not
significantly different than the
TPS virtual school in their math gains. Seventeen percent of charter
schools had math gains that
were significantly better than the TPS results. But 37 percent had
results that were significantly
negative relative to the growth their students would have realized if
they attended traditional
public schools."
2. Homeschooling
Home-schooling advocates, including those at http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/hslda/200707310.asp
make a great deal of the fact that the ACT scores of home-schooled
students are about 22.5, against the national average of about 22.1
There are two problems with this:
a) When broken out, the average math ACT score of home-schooled
students is about 19.2, versus the national average of 20.2, and this
score is known to be the most robust predictor of college success.
‘College-ready’ is defined as a score of 22.
b) The latest number of home-schooled students taking the ACT is 8075.
The estimated total of such students in the nation is about 1.4
million (see http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/weblinks/numbers.htm),
so about 200,000 in the equivalent of grades 11 and 12. Thus, the home-
schooled students represent 4-8% of the possible total. It is quite
unlikely that these are representative of the total. Even if they are,
the average ACT score in Minnesota public schools, where 72% are
tested, is 22.9 (see http://www.ohe.state.mn.us/mPg.cfm?pageID=792).
3. Private schools
At the Center on Education Policy, at
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001382591411870128679%3Ail0cupb_8ya&ie=UTF-8&q=private+schools&siteurl=www.cep-dc.org%2F#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=private%20schools&gsc.page=1
, you can find the Wenglinsky report, contrasting gains in achievement
for several types of school. Some interesting stuff is on page 16.
Using factor analysis, all differences in gains were overshadowed by
the students’ backgrounds.
Tim Norfolk
Oct 6, 2011, 9:02:15 PM10/6/11
to
On Oct 6, 3:58 pm, "mo_charles" <harrybal...@gmail.com> wrote:
year. Let's just say that those very selective schools intensively
coach 10,000 graduates per year. How do you think those graduates
would compare with the top say 30,000 from all public schools in the
nation?
mo_charles
Oct 7, 2011, 8:36:04 AM10/7/11
to
On Oct 6 2011 5:21 PM, Iceman wrote:
> > private schools aren't required to prep for tests tim and government
> > value. the elite prep schools are the finest high schools in the country.
> > the top ten colleges / universities / liberal arts schools are private.
>
> The "top ten"? Weren't you just bashing college rankings the other day?
>
> Similar to high schools, the fact that the top 10 colleges are all private
> doesn't say anything about the whole picture of public versus private
> colleges in general. How many thousands of colleges are there in the US,
> serving how many millions of students? And many of the better state
> universities would be near the very top of that distribution even if they
> aren't quite as good as the much smaller and better-endowed Ivies -
> UC-Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, Texas-Austin. At the
> graduate level, some state universities' specific graduate programs actually
> are the best or among the very best.
i'm not touting the rating, and i didn't attend any of them.
> > private schools aren't required to prep for tests tim and government
> > value. the elite prep schools are the finest high schools in the country.
> > the top ten colleges / universities / liberal arts schools are private.
>
> The "top ten"? Weren't you just bashing college rankings the other day?
>
> Similar to high schools, the fact that the top 10 colleges are all private
> doesn't say anything about the whole picture of public versus private
> colleges in general. How many thousands of colleges are there in the US,
> serving how many millions of students? And many of the better state
> universities would be near the very top of that distribution even if they
> aren't quite as good as the much smaller and better-endowed Ivies -
> UC-Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, Texas-Austin. At the
> graduate level, some state universities' specific graduate programs actually
> are the best or among the very best.
> > there's just no contest. why there's such an ass kicking is open to
> > debate (self-selecting, etc), but tim keeps trotting out bullshit.
>
> Why don't you address the fact that the top half of public schools are
> actually pretty good despite being run by government bureaucrats and staffed
> by unionized teachers?
higher costs, lower accountability, and the quiet mugging of taxpayers
ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. quit making excuses for public unions that are fucking
the nation.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-04/news/chi-claypool-cta-faces-277m-in-red-ink-for-2012-20111004_1_cta-president-forrest-claypool-cta-staff-cta-fare
"Claypool came out firing in an address Tuesday morning to the City Club
of Chicago. He blamed CTA labor unions for pushing “archaic work rules” –
all agreed to by his predecessors – “that are so destructive and cost so
much money for the people who ride our system.’’
The CTA has been forced to borrow $554 million over the last four years to
cover deficit spending and shortfalls, Claypool said. The agency’s legal
borrowing limit has been reached, he added. The CTA also shifted $113
million from its capital-improvement budget this year to shore up the
$1.35 billion operating budget, which had faced a $95.6 million shortfall.
..
The average union salary at the CTA is $59,000 a year, Kelly said. “Is
that what is breaking the budget here? No. The lives of middle-class
working people are in the hands of politicians and they think it’s a
joke,’’ he said."
sound familiar? hire tons of people at inflated wages to underperform.
pass them endless hidden pension and healthcare benefits and pretend
they're barely making a living. these people drive buses. public school
teachers are failing.
mo_charles
----
number6
Oct 7, 2011, 8:32:43 AM10/7/11
to
On Oct 5, 8:05 pm, Tim Norfolk <timsn...@aol.com> wrote:
> I have given this challenge on numerous occasions, especially when we
> ran short of teachers. One VP with a Ph.D. in Physics took me up on
> it. He quit after 3 weeks because it was too much work.-
> I have given this challenge on numerous occasions, especially when we
> ran short of teachers. One VP with a Ph.D. in Physics took me up on
Interesting ... same thing happened when we hired a high school drop
out to stack 50 pound bags on a pallet ... Should have hired a
teacher ...
mo_charles
Oct 7, 2011, 8:51:03 AM10/7/11
to
On Oct 6 2011 6:38 PM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> > > > he'll claim he can, but he can't. the reasons are very obvious.
> >
> > > When I have time to find the reference, will you acknowledge it and
> > > apologize, or do what you usually do, which is change the subject?
> >
> > you can dig up a stat and pretend it means whatever you want. there's no
> > question which schools are the finest in the nation ... they're ALL
> > PRIVATE.
>
> > > > he'll claim he can, but he can't. the reasons are very obvious.
> >
> > > When I have time to find the reference, will you acknowledge it and
> > > apologize, or do what you usually do, which is change the subject?
> >
> > you can dig up a stat and pretend it means whatever you want. there's no
> > question which schools are the finest in the nation ... they're ALL
> > PRIVATE.
>
> In other words, facts once again don't matter to you. You know the
> 'real' answer, which is why you are such an idealogue. Nonetheless,
> here is some of the readily available data:
facts don't matter TO YOU.
> 'real' answer, which is why you are such an idealogue. Nonetheless,
> here is some of the readily available data:
> 3. Private schools
>
> At the Center on Education Policy, at
>
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001382591411870128679%3Ail0cupb_8ya&ie=UTF-8&q=private+schools&siteurl=www.cep-dc.org%2F#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=private%20schools&gsc.page=1
> , you can find the Wenglinsky report, contrasting gains in achievement
> for several types of school. Some interesting stuff is on page 16.
> Using factor analysis, all differences in gains were overshadowed by
> the students’ backgrounds.
mo_charles
----
mo_charles
Oct 7, 2011, 8:52:44 AM10/7/11
to
On Oct 7 2011 6:32 AM, number6 wrote:
> > I have given this challenge on numerous occasions, especially when we
> > ran short of teachers. One VP with a Ph.D. in Physics took me up on
> > it. He quit after 3 weeks because it was too much work.-
>
> Interesting ... same thing happened when we hired a high school drop
> out to stack 50 pound bags on a pallet ... Should have hired a
> teacher ...
the teacher would have crushed it with above market pay, for 6.5 hours a
> > I have given this challenge on numerous occasions, especially when we
> > ran short of teachers. One VP with a Ph.D. in Physics took me up on
> > it. He quit after 3 weeks because it was too much work.-
>
> Interesting ... same thing happened when we hired a high school drop
> out to stack 50 pound bags on a pallet ... Should have hired a
> teacher ...
day, 7.5 months a year, with full pension and healthcare.
mo_charles
____________________________________________________________________
Iceman
Oct 7, 2011, 10:29:07 AM10/7/11
to
"mo_charles" <harry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ka83m8x...@recgroups.com...
> On Oct 6 2011 5:21 PM, Iceman wrote:
>
>> > private schools aren't required to prep for tests tim and government
>> > value. the elite prep schools are the finest high schools in the
>> > country.
>> > the top ten colleges / universities / liberal arts schools are private.
>>
>> The "top ten"? Weren't you just bashing college rankings the other day?
>>
>> Similar to high schools, the fact that the top 10 colleges are all
>> private
>> doesn't say anything about the whole picture of public versus private
>> colleges in general. How many thousands of colleges are there in the US,
>> serving how many millions of students? And many of the better state
>> universities would be near the very top of that distribution even if they
>> aren't quite as good as the much smaller and better-endowed Ivies -
>> UC-Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, Texas-Austin. At the
>> graduate level, some state universities' specific graduate programs
>> actually
>> are the best or among the very best.
>
> i'm not touting the rating, and i didn't attend any of them.
So your point was that the highest rated schools are private, but you aren't
>
>> > private schools aren't required to prep for tests tim and government
>> > value. the elite prep schools are the finest high schools in the
>> > country.
>> > the top ten colleges / universities / liberal arts schools are private.
>>
>> The "top ten"? Weren't you just bashing college rankings the other day?
>>
>> Similar to high schools, the fact that the top 10 colleges are all
>> private
>> doesn't say anything about the whole picture of public versus private
>> colleges in general. How many thousands of colleges are there in the US,
>> serving how many millions of students? And many of the better state
>> universities would be near the very top of that distribution even if they
>> aren't quite as good as the much smaller and better-endowed Ivies -
>> UC-Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan, Wisconsin-Madison, Texas-Austin. At the
>> graduate level, some state universities' specific graduate programs
>> actually
>> are the best or among the very best.
>
> i'm not touting the rating, and i didn't attend any of them.
touting the rating, which you've said elsewhere was bullshit.
UChicago made the top 10 this year, so maybe it's not a safety school
anymore.
>> > there's just no contest. why there's such an ass kicking is open to
>> > debate (self-selecting, etc), but tim keeps trotting out bullshit.
>>
>> Why don't you address the fact that the top half of public schools are
>> actually pretty good despite being run by government bureaucrats and
>> staffed
>> by unionized teachers?
>
> forget state sponsored indoctrination for a minute. "pretty good" with
> higher costs, lower accountability, and the quiet mugging of taxpayers
> ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. quit making excuses for public unions that are fucking
> the nation.
special ed kids, kids with discipline problems, or kids who can't perform up
to the standards. If schools aren't accountable the solution is to make
them more accountable - when was the last time you voted in a school board
election, or when education problems were an issue in a local city council
or mayoral election?
I think that voucher systems might have potential in areas where public
schools are failing, but even though conservatives have been talking about
vouchers for at least 20 years, there has been very little action on the
issue.
> http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-04/news/chi-claypool-cta-faces-277m-in-red-ink-for-2012-20111004_1_cta-president-forrest-claypool-cta-staff-cta-fare
>
> "Claypool came out firing in an address Tuesday morning to the City Club
> all agreed to by his predecessors - "that are so destructive and cost so
> much money for the people who ride our system.''
>
> The CTA has been forced to borrow $554 million over the last four years to
> cover deficit spending and shortfalls, Claypool said. The agency's legal
> borrowing limit has been reached, he added. The CTA also shifted $113
> million from its capital-improvement budget this year to shore up the
> $1.35 billion operating budget, which had faced a $95.6 million shortfall.
> ..
> The average union salary at the CTA is $59,000 a year, Kelly said. "Is
> that what is breaking the budget here? No. The lives of middle-class
> working people are in the hands of politicians and they think it's a
> joke,'' he said."
>
> sound familiar? hire tons of people at inflated wages to underperform.
Sounds like Wall Street!
>
> The CTA has been forced to borrow $554 million over the last four years to
> cover deficit spending and shortfalls, Claypool said. The agency's legal
> borrowing limit has been reached, he added. The CTA also shifted $113
> million from its capital-improvement budget this year to shore up the
> $1.35 billion operating budget, which had faced a $95.6 million shortfall.
> ..
> The average union salary at the CTA is $59,000 a year, Kelly said. "Is
> that what is breaking the budget here? No. The lives of middle-class
> working people are in the hands of politicians and they think it's a
> joke,'' he said."
>
> sound familiar? hire tons of people at inflated wages to underperform.
> pass them endless hidden pension and healthcare benefits and pretend
> they're barely making a living. these people drive buses. public school
> teachers are failing.
but it's not the pattern across the board, and I've shown you statistics
that document that. The solution is to fix the abuses, not bash all public
workers. And privatization has often led to worse services and higher
costs.
mo_charles
Oct 7, 2011, 11:09:37 AM10/7/11
to
On Oct 7 2011 8:29 AM, Iceman wrote:
> > i'm not touting the rating, and i didn't attend any of them.
>
> So your point was that the highest rated schools are private, but you aren't
> touting the rating, which you've said elsewhere was bullshit.
the rankings are bullshit. i'm using them for a general idea on quality
of education.
> UChicago made the top 10 this year, so maybe it's not a safety school
> anymore.
you've been embarrassing yourself for years on this. why would i stop you?
> > forget state sponsored indoctrination for a minute. "pretty good" with
> > higher costs, lower accountability, and the quiet mugging of taxpayers
> > ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. quit making excuses for public unions that are fucking
> > the nation.
>
> Public schools also have to take all students. Private schools can exclude
> special ed kids, kids with discipline problems, or kids who can't perform up
> to the standards. If schools aren't accountable the solution is to make
> them more accountable - when was the last time you voted in a school board
> election, or when education problems were an issue in a local city council
> or mayoral election?
why would i work within a system guaranteed to fail? i'll vote to destoy
the state's stranglehold on kids education.
> I think that voucher systems might have potential in areas where public
> schools are failing, but even though conservatives have been talking about
> vouchers for at least 20 years, there has been very little action on the
> issue.
because idiots like you defend government and public union failure.
>
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-04/news/chi-claypool-cta-faces-277m-in-red-ink-for-2012-20111004_1_cta-president-forrest-claypool-cta-staff-cta-fare
> >
> > "Claypool came out firing in an address Tuesday morning to the City Club
> > of Chicago. He blamed CTA labor unions for pushing "archaic work rules" -
> > all agreed to by his predecessors - "that are so destructive and cost so
> > much money for the people who ride our system.''
> >
> > The CTA has been forced to borrow $554 million over the last four years to
> > cover deficit spending and shortfalls, Claypool said. The agency's legal
> > borrowing limit has been reached, he added. The CTA also shifted $113
> > million from its capital-improvement budget this year to shore up the
> > $1.35 billion operating budget, which had faced a $95.6 million shortfall.
> > ..
> > The average union salary at the CTA is $59,000 a year, Kelly said. "Is
> > that what is breaking the budget here? No. The lives of middle-class
> > working people are in the hands of politicians and they think it's a
> > joke,'' he said."
> >
> > sound familiar? hire tons of people at inflated wages to underperform.
>
> Sounds like Wall Street!
your new york buddies.
> > pass them endless hidden pension and healthcare benefits and pretend
> > they're barely making a living. these people drive buses. public school
> > teachers are failing.
>
> I've never said that there aren't some abuses by some public sector unions,
> but it's not the pattern across the board, and I've shown you statistics
> that document that. The solution is to fix the abuses, not bash all public
> workers. And privatization has often led to worse services and higher
> costs.
it is an across the board pattern, and i don't want privatization. where
do you get this stupidity? i want the public unions destroyed and labor
competing in real markets rather than ripping off silent citizens with
backdoor deals with democrat whore lawyers in legislatures.
mo_charles
---�
Tim Norfolk
Oct 7, 2011, 11:10:46 AM10/7/11
to
On Oct 7, 8:36 am, "mo_charles" <harrybal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 6 2011 5:21 PM, Iceman wrote:
<snip>
> On Oct 6 2011 5:21 PM, Iceman wrote:
> Why don't you address the fact that the top half of public schools are
> > actually pretty good despite being run by government bureaucrats and staffed
> > by unionized teachers?
>
> forget state sponsored indoctrination for a minute. "pretty good" with
> higher costs, lower accountability, and the quiet mugging of taxpayers
> ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. quit making excuses for public unions that are fucking
> the nation.
<snip>
> > actually pretty good despite being run by government bureaucrats and staffed
> > by unionized teachers?
>
> forget state sponsored indoctrination for a minute. "pretty good" with
> higher costs, lower accountability, and the quiet mugging of taxpayers
> ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. quit making excuses for public unions that are fucking
> the nation.
> mo_charles
>
Wonderful logic. You tout Amherst et al as 'the best'. By the above
reasoning, they must be cheaper than public schools, right?
In addition to the other facts that don't appeal to your ideology, you
might want to check how performance is in 'right to work' states like
Georgia. I'll give you a hint, they underperform the Northern states.
There also was an experiment in New York city, where they paid
teachers $100 K per year, but only on one-year contracts (60 Minutes
did a piece on this). Every aspect of their teaching was reviewed over
and over again, from recordings and class materials. At the end of the
year, many teachers were fired, as agreed. However, the average
performance of the students was no better than the other similar
schools in the system.
I'll tell you what, since you are so interested in immediate financial
grafification. Set up your own system, which solves all of the
problems in education. If it works, you'll be a billionaire.
mo_charles
Oct 7, 2011, 11:44:32 AM10/7/11
to
On Oct 7 2011 9:10 AM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> > Why don't you address the fact that the top half of public schools are
> > actually pretty good despite being run by government bureaucrats and
staffed
> > by unionized teachers?
> >
> > forget state sponsored indoctrination for a minute. "pretty good" with
> > higher costs, lower accountability, and the quiet mugging of taxpayers
> > ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. quit making excuses for public unions that are fucking
> > the nation.
>
> > Why don't you address the fact that the top half of public schools are
> > actually pretty good despite being run by government bureaucrats and
staffed
> > by unionized teachers?
> >
> > forget state sponsored indoctrination for a minute. "pretty good" with
> > higher costs, lower accountability, and the quiet mugging of taxpayers
> > ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. quit making excuses for public unions that are fucking
> > the nation.
>
> Wonderful logic. You tout Amherst et al as 'the best'. By the above
> reasoning, they must be cheaper than public schools, right?
people are willing to pay for amherst because it constitutes a relative
> reasoning, they must be cheaper than public schools, right?
value. people piss their money away on shit degrees from shit schools
because statistics nothings pretend degrees increase earnings and
government encourages unthinking stupidity.
> In addition to the other facts that don't appeal to your ideology, you
> might want to check how performance is in 'right to work' states like
> Georgia. I'll give you a hint, they underperform the Northern states.
school kids out-perform public school kids then explained it away. what
the hell "performance" are you talking about? california's right to work.
> There also was an experiment in New York city, where they paid
> teachers $100 K per year, but only on one-year contracts (60 Minutes
> did a piece on this). Every aspect of their teaching was reviewed over
> and over again, from recordings and class materials. At the end of the
> year, many teachers were fired, as agreed. However, the average
> performance of the students was no better than the other similar
> schools in the system.
> I'll tell you what, since you are so interested in immediate financial
> grafification. Set up your own system, which solves all of the
> problems in education. If it works, you'll be a billionaire.
talking before, did it?
mo_charles
____________________________________________________________________
Iceman
Oct 7, 2011, 11:45:03 AM10/7/11
to
"mo_charles" <harry...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hah3m8x...@recgroups.com...
> On Oct 7 2011 8:29 AM, Iceman wrote:
>
>> UChicago made the top 10 this year, so maybe it's not a safety school
>> anymore.
>
> you've been embarrassing yourself for years on this. why would i stop
> you?
How many times have you made reference to your UChicago degree, usually
>
>> UChicago made the top 10 this year, so maybe it's not a safety school
>> anymore.
>
> you've been embarrassing yourself for years on this. why would i stop
> you?
after being smacked down in an economics thread? Who's the one embarrassing
himself?
>> > forget state sponsored indoctrination for a minute. "pretty good" with
>> > higher costs, lower accountability, and the quiet mugging of taxpayers
>> > ISN'T ACCEPTABLE. quit making excuses for public unions that are
>> > fucking
>> > the nation.
>>
>> Public schools also have to take all students. Private schools can
>> exclude
>> special ed kids, kids with discipline problems, or kids who can't perform
>> up
>> to the standards. If schools aren't accountable the solution is to make
>> them more accountable - when was the last time you voted in a school
>> board
>> election, or when education problems were an issue in a local city
>> council
>> or mayoral election?
>
> why would i work within a system guaranteed to fail?
wealthy suburbs?
> i'll vote to destoy the state's stranglehold on kids education.
the right wing to stop bothering with nonsense issues like gay marriage and
focus on real things that government isn't doing well and that might have
better market-based solutions.
>> > "Claypool came out firing in an address Tuesday morning to the City
>> > Club
>> > of Chicago. He blamed CTA labor unions for pushing "archaic work
>> > rules" -
>> > all agreed to by his predecessors - "that are so destructive and cost
>> > so
>> > much money for the people who ride our system.''
>> >
>> > The CTA has been forced to borrow $554 million over the last four years
>> > to
>> > cover deficit spending and shortfalls, Claypool said. The agency's
>> > legal
>> > borrowing limit has been reached, he added. The CTA also shifted $113
>> > million from its capital-improvement budget this year to shore up the
>> > $1.35 billion operating budget, which had faced a $95.6 million
>> > shortfall.
>> > ..
>> > The average union salary at the CTA is $59,000 a year, Kelly said. "Is
>> > that what is breaking the budget here? No. The lives of middle-class
>> > working people are in the hands of politicians and they think it's a
>> > joke,'' he said."
>> >
>> > sound familiar? hire tons of people at inflated wages to underperform.
>>
>> Sounds like Wall Street!
>
> your new york buddies.
the world economy. Leave the real decisions to New York and London.
>> > pass them endless hidden pension and healthcare benefits and pretend
>> > they're barely making a living. these people drive buses. public
>> > school
>> > teachers are failing.
>>
>> I've never said that there aren't some abuses by some public sector
>> unions,
>> but it's not the pattern across the board, and I've shown you statistics
>> that document that. The solution is to fix the abuses, not bash all
>> public
>> workers. And privatization has often led to worse services and higher
>> costs.
>
> it is an across the board pattern, and i don't want privatization. where
> do you get this stupidity? i want the public unions destroyed and labor
> competing in real markets rather than ripping off silent citizens with
> backdoor deals with democrat whore lawyers in legislatures.
businesses.
zox625
Oct 7, 2011, 12:01:39 PM10/7/11
to
> news:jiarl8x...@recgroups.com...
> it completely relevant then all teachers should have complete control over
> all students, every aspect of their lives, choose their parents for them,
> where they live, how they dress, who their friends are, and what activities
> they do in their spare time.
>
> You've launched into teachers before and I think you still view teaching as
> something that is quantifiable like yards per rush or the number passes
> caught on a football field. An athlete is in complete control of his body
> and his play. If he doesn't perform well, then he needs to get more fit,
> study the game harder, use a different technique, or do something else to
> enhance his performance.
>
> The fallacy you've trotted out is that this is similar to a teacher and the
> test scores of students. Good teachers can make a difference, but kids have
> so many other variables that affect their educations (parent involvement
> being the major one) that the conservative line of correlating test scores
> to teacher ability is just bogus. It doesn't work that way.
>
> If we really wanted to increase test scores, we'd do away with three months
> of summer vacation like many other countries.
Riiiight.... Teacher's Unions: "How can you expect us to teach your
children to read??? We only have them for 9 months a year! But if you
give us more money, then maybe...."
_______________________________________________________________________
> > fran tarkenton wrote an interesting piece:
> >
> > "Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each
> > player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about
> > tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter
> > whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For
> > every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only
> > difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few
> > years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third
> > season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire,
> > except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.
> >
> > Let's face the truth about this alternate reality: The on-field product
> > would steadily decline. Why bother playing harder or better and risk
> > getting hurt?"
> >
> > if you sensitivities ignore all the rest, READ THIS ONLY:
> >
> > "Inflation-adjusted spending per student in the United States has nearly
> > tripled since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation
> > and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
> > Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
>
>
>
>
> The analogy between NFL/athletes and teachers is bogus. If you want to make
> >
> > "Imagine the National Football League in an alternate reality. Each
> > player's salary is based on how long he's been in the league. It's about
> > tenure, not talent. The same scale is used for every player, no matter
> > whether he's an All-Pro quarterback or the last man on the roster. For
> > every year a player's been in this NFL, he gets a bump in pay. The only
> > difference between Tom Brady and the worst player in the league is a few
> > years of step increases. And if a player makes it through his third
> > season, he can never be cut from the roster until he chooses to retire,
> > except in the most extreme cases of misconduct.
> >
> > Let's face the truth about this alternate reality: The on-field product
> > would steadily decline. Why bother playing harder or better and risk
> > getting hurt?"
> >
> > if you sensitivities ignore all the rest, READ THIS ONLY:
> >
> > "Inflation-adjusted spending per student in the United States has nearly
> > tripled since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation
> > and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
> > Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
>
>
>
>
> it completely relevant then all teachers should have complete control over
> all students, every aspect of their lives, choose their parents for them,
> where they live, how they dress, who their friends are, and what activities
> they do in their spare time.
>
> You've launched into teachers before and I think you still view teaching as
> something that is quantifiable like yards per rush or the number passes
> caught on a football field. An athlete is in complete control of his body
> and his play. If he doesn't perform well, then he needs to get more fit,
> study the game harder, use a different technique, or do something else to
> enhance his performance.
>
> The fallacy you've trotted out is that this is similar to a teacher and the
> test scores of students. Good teachers can make a difference, but kids have
> so many other variables that affect their educations (parent involvement
> being the major one) that the conservative line of correlating test scores
> to teacher ability is just bogus. It doesn't work that way.
>
> If we really wanted to increase test scores, we'd do away with three months
> of summer vacation like many other countries.
Riiiight.... Teacher's Unions: "How can you expect us to teach your
children to read??? We only have them for 9 months a year! But if you
give us more money, then maybe...."
_______________________________________________________________________
mo_charles
Oct 7, 2011, 12:01:58 PM10/7/11
to
On Oct 7 2011 9:45 AM, Iceman wrote:
> > you've been embarrassing yourself for years on this. why would i stop
> > you?
>
> How many times have you made reference to your UChicago degree, usually
> after being smacked down in an economics thread? Who's the one embarrassing
> himself?
>
> > you've been embarrassing yourself for years on this. why would i stop
> > you?
>
> How many times have you made reference to your UChicago degree, usually
> after being smacked down in an economics thread? Who's the one embarrassing
> himself?
>
> > why would i work within a system guaranteed to fail?
>
> Are public schools in Europe and Asia guaranteed to fail? Or in America's
> wealthy suburbs?
>
> > i'll vote to destoy the state's stranglehold on kids education.
>
> Let's see a workable plan for school choice or school vouchers then. Tell
> the right wing to stop bothering with nonsense issues like gay marriage and
> focus on real things that government isn't doing well and that might have
> better market-based solutions.
>
>
> Are public schools in Europe and Asia guaranteed to fail? Or in America's
> wealthy suburbs?
>
> > i'll vote to destoy the state's stranglehold on kids education.
>
> Let's see a workable plan for school choice or school vouchers then. Tell
> the right wing to stop bothering with nonsense issues like gay marriage and
> focus on real things that government isn't doing well and that might have
> better market-based solutions.
>
> > your new york buddies.
>
> That's true - the finance industry in Chicago is too minor league to affect
> the world economy. Leave the real decisions to New York and London.
>
> That's true - the finance industry in Chicago is too minor league to affect
> the world economy. Leave the real decisions to New York and London.
> > it is an across the board pattern, and i don't want privatization. where
> > do you get this stupidity? i want the public unions destroyed and labor
> > competing in real markets rather than ripping off silent citizens with
> > backdoor deals with democrat whore lawyers in legislatures.
>
> Republicans prefer to rip off citizens in backdoor deals with their cronies'
> businesses.
looks like all you've got left are bad insults. are we done here?
> > do you get this stupidity? i want the public unions destroyed and labor
> > competing in real markets rather than ripping off silent citizens with
> > backdoor deals with democrat whore lawyers in legislatures.
>
> Republicans prefer to rip off citizens in backdoor deals with their cronies'
> businesses.
mo_charles
______________________________________________________________________
mo_charles
Oct 7, 2011, 12:06:48 PM10/7/11
to
> > > "INFLATION-ADJUSTED spending PER STUDENT in the United States has nearly
> > > TRIPLED since 1970. According to the Organization for Economic
Cooperation
> > > and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
> > > Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
we've been increasing spending on public education for decades; nothing
> > > and Development, we spend more per student than any nation except
> > > Switzerland, with only middling results to show for it."
but entrenched and pitifully under-performing teachers and bureaucrats to
show for it.
mo_charles
-------
phlash74
Oct 7, 2011, 12:24:31 PM10/7/11
to
On Oct 7 2011 8:44 AM, mo_charles wrote:
> On Oct 7 2011 9:10 AM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
>
>
> > In addition to the other facts that don't appeal to your ideology, you
> > might want to check how performance is in 'right to work' states like
> > Georgia. I'll give you a hint, they underperform the Northern states.
>
> what fact have you presented? you gave us studies showing non-public
> school kids out-perform public school kids then explained it away. what
> the hell "performance" are you talking about? california's right to work.
Uh, no, no it isn't.
> On Oct 7 2011 9:10 AM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
>
>
> > In addition to the other facts that don't appeal to your ideology, you
> > might want to check how performance is in 'right to work' states like
> > Georgia. I'll give you a hint, they underperform the Northern states.
>
> what fact have you presented? you gave us studies showing non-public
> school kids out-perform public school kids then explained it away. what
> the hell "performance" are you talking about? california's right to work.
http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm
Michael
-----------------
"> phlash
On your circle jerk k00l kidz email list. Should be disqualified for
that, but I'll give him a pass because he is smart." - ramashiva,
8/22/2010
"Hitler has already been forgiven, but you have not." - Reptillian AKA
Igotskillz, 4/6/2011
--------
mo_charles
Oct 7, 2011, 1:39:57 PM10/7/11
to
On Oct 7 2011 10:24 AM, phlash74 wrote:
> On Oct 7 2011 8:44 AM, mo_charles wrote:
>
> > On Oct 7 2011 9:10 AM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > > In addition to the other facts that don't appeal to your ideology, you
> > > might want to check how performance is in 'right to work' states like
> > > Georgia. I'll give you a hint, they underperform the Northern states.
> >
> > what fact have you presented? you gave us studies showing non-public
> > school kids out-perform public school kids then explained it away. what
> > the hell "performance" are you talking about? california's right to work.
>
> Uh, no, no it isn't.
>
> http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm
i gave you idiots too much credit. i was thinking about restrictive
> On Oct 7 2011 8:44 AM, mo_charles wrote:
>
> > On Oct 7 2011 9:10 AM, Tim Norfolk wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > > In addition to the other facts that don't appeal to your ideology, you
> > > might want to check how performance is in 'right to work' states like
> > > Georgia. I'll give you a hint, they underperform the Northern states.
> >
> > what fact have you presented? you gave us studies showing non-public
> > school kids out-perform public school kids then explained it away. what
> > the hell "performance" are you talking about? california's right to work.
>
> Uh, no, no it isn't.
>
> http://www.nrtw.org/rtws.htm
covenants, something california got right.
mo_charles
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