Omaha/8 vs. Hold 'em
Sodapop
player of 7 months. I play primarily 9/18 Hold 'em to sustain my
living. For the last 285 hours of play at this level, I have averaged
1.74 big bets per hour. This includes every single hour of play -
good and bad. I sustain this through game selection and a v. tight v.
aggressive style of play - especially when the table becomes short
handed or I'm first to open in late position.
I also play Hold 'em tournaments on Paradise Poker and make a very
modest profit (if any at all). Recently I have become interested in
the game of Omaha/8. Hold'em can get boring when you play 60 hours a
week for 7 months. In Omaha/8, I have played 5 tournaments at
Paradise at the $10 level. I've placed first in 4 and second once. I
have never even come close to a run like this in Hold 'em. Obviously,
I've received a terrific run of cards and this cannot possibly
continue. My question to the more experienced players is this:
Can the expert player receive a higher edge (EV) playing Omaha/8 vs.
the expectation in Hold 'em? Also, what are the top books on Omaha/8?
A. Prock
>
>Can the expert player receive a higher edge (EV) playing Omaha/8 vs.
>the expectation in Hold 'em?
On average, omaha/8 games are much looser than
hold'em games. This means that they are generally
more profitable per hand than hold'em. Unfortunatly,
they are also much slower games than hold'em.
This tends to create a wash. When the games become
tight, the game dynamics change greatly. Most of
those who know how to play omaha/8 well, understand
the game in terms of loose games. You can now
attack the blinds with a very different set of hands
than you would play in a loose game. Most players,
unoccustomed to heads-up play in omaha/8 will make
many large mistakes.
So...
I think tight omaha/8 games are probably more
profitable on average than tight hold'em games,
but this is primarily due to the relative newness
of the game, and the lack of good shorthanded
omaha/8 players.
>Also, what are the top books on Omaha/8?
There are none. The best omaha/8 book is the book
published by 2+2. It tends to skimp on many of
the advanced concepts, providing only a couple
of interesting anecdotal observations about
tighter games.
All that aside, you are going to be hard pressed
to find omaha/8 games which provide you with the
same kind of earning potential as hold'em. This
is simply because you just aren't going to find
many omaha/8 games above 10/20, whereas you are
going to find hold'em games at 20/40 and above
with relative ease.
In my opinion, the main reason to learn omaha/8
well is to be prepared for the mix games which
are often offered at higher limits than straight
hold'em games. Of course, you might also be
interested in tournaments, which are another good
reason to play omaha/8.
- Andrew
Aces & Eights
"Sodapop" <danie...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ede86e8b.02012...@posting.google.com...
PacPalBuzz
From: danie...@yahoo.com (Sodapop)
Date: Thu, Jan 24, 2002 5:47 PM
Message-id: <ede86e8b.02012...@posting.google.com> >>
<< In Omaha/8, I have played 5 tournaments at
Paradise at the $10 level. I've placed first in 4 and second once. >>
Wow! That is absolutely sensational! Thanks for sharing the news of your
success.
How about also sharing some of your strategy and tactics with us low level
Omaha-8 duffers? You obviously are doing something right.
I'm unfamiliar with the Paradise Omaha-8 tournaments. How many entrants are
there on the average? Are they re-buy tournaments? If so, how many rebuys do
you, personally, make on the average?
Whatever your answers are, your record of success seems amazing to me.
Andrew Prock has given the answers to your questions. Alas, I have nothing to
add in response to your questions except to note that I agree with what Andrew
has already written.
As an aside, often ring game Omaha-8 regulars are a breed apart from low limit
Omaha-8 tournament players, although there is some overlap. I'd be interested
in your take on the difference between the two (Omaha-8 ring games and low
level Omaha-8 tournaments), should you venture into Omaha-8 ring game play.
Whatever, I'm impressed at your success. Doesn't seem quite that easy to me.
Buzz
JackGierC
A great tool for learning the game
The Beet Man
<20020125041201...@mb-fh.aol.com>,
pacpa...@aol.comnospam (PacPalBuzz) wrote:
>I'm unfamiliar with the Paradise Omaha-8 tournaments. How many entrants are
>there on the average? Are they re-buy tournaments? If so, how many rebuys do
>you, personally, make on the average?
All Paradise tournaments are single table/no rebuy. Flop games are 10
players and stud games are 8. Payouts in the flop games are 50/30/20
and Stud games are 40/24/16. (Multiply for tournaments larger than
$10).
>Whatever your answers are, your record of success seems amazing to me.
5 tournaments is a small sample size, so a good streak isn't that
outlandish.
--
This post brought to you courtesy of the Beet Man!
mredge
> Hold'em can get boring when you play 60 hours a
> week for 7 months.
The comments by others on the subject are good and I really can't add
anything except point out that winning Omaha HiLo is even more boring
than Holdem. You probably should be folding more hands preflop in
Omaha. Be prepared to fold, fold again and fold some more.
tells
The quick and easy answer is that most people don't know how to play
Omaha/8 well, but any idiot out there can find a book about HE; which
more or less answers your question about books, too...
When it comes to EV I'd say that you should view HE as your main game,
and go for O/8 whenever you get the chance (ie it's there and not too
tight); because there aren't that many O/8 games available, it's slower
(less hands per hour) and you don't want to get stuck at a O/8 game with
only good players while there are H8 games available.
/t
Sodapop
> Omaha-8 duffers? You obviously are doing something right.
I am an Omaha-8 duffer too, so I don't know what advice I can give.
This morning I lost both tournaments I entered (the streak has ended).
Having said that, I think the key to success in Omaha-8 is folding
marginal hands (something I failed to do this morning) - they can
really get you into trouble.
Thank you to everyone who posted responses. I'm going to go out and
get the Ray Zee book. I'll be in Vegas this weekend - see if they
have it at the Gamblers Book Club.
I will give you my personal strategy to Omaha-8 for Buzz and anyone
else who is interested, but with the following disclaimer. I am very
new to this game, have not read any literature on it, but have managed
to see some short term success.
I play reasonably tight preflop. Hands like A234, AA2x (suited), AAKK
(double suited). I really like the aces and the little cards. I
don't gamble with a small or medium pair, because I think you can lose
a bundle with these when someone spikes a higher set. Q's, K's, A's
are all pairs that I'll play if they have one or two other ways of
winning - ie low, straights or flushes. so QQKJ is a hand that I'd
play, especially if it's double suited. Hands like this do not come
along very often, so I fold a lot of hands. It's boring, so I'll play
two games at one time (online). Or I'll watch TV or read a book while
I play. This reduces my ability to read people, but increases my
ability to play tight. Since it is difficult to get a great read on
people online anyway, I don't feel I'm giving up *too* much.
Also, I won't draw to less than a King or Ace high flush if I can help
it. I won't draw to a flush if trips are on the board or if the board
pairs on the turn, I'll slam the brakes if I have a flush. The
exception to this is when everyone is just checking and it's obvious
nobody has the set. I'll take the free cards with the best of 'em.
With straights (I hate straights in this game) I play them very
conservatively, unless I get a rainbow flop with lots of ways to fill
it - like this:
Flop: AQ9 rainbow
Hand: KQJ10
If enough people are in the pot, or if the pot is shorthanded, I'll
play this aggressively. Even better if I have backdoor flush draws in
a shorthanded pot. I like this type of situation because it's drawing
to the nuts and if I make my hand their will be no possible low - so I
can scoop.
I come in for a raise about one third to half the time. If the game
is shorthanded, I'm very likely to raise. Any big pair is worth a
raise, IMO, if you can get heads up with a blind hand.
Good luck,
Dan
David Downing
making marginal decisions anyway - ure playing the nuts! However once
u reach 10-20 the players do wakeup and not playing close attention
can be fatal - one of my bad runs came from such inattention. If
you're playing holdem online I would never advocate anything other
than full attention. My view is that most of these "cheating" stories
are down to a game that will have much higher variance (its twice as
fast) and player inattention treating a money game like a computer
game.
good luck
dave d
On 25 Jan 2002 14:51:29 -0800, danie...@yahoo.com (Sodapop) wrote:
>> snipped comment on doing other things whilst playing online>
"What are they gonna say man when he's gone...he was a kind man?
He was a wise man? He had plans, he had wisdom? Bulls--t man. "
Vince Oliver
> player of 7 months. I play primarily 9/18 Hold 'em to sustain my
> living. For the last 285 hours of play at this level, I have averaged
> 1.74 big bets per hour. This includes every single hour of play -
> good and bad. I sustain this through game selection and a v. tight v.
> aggressive style of play - especially when the table becomes short
> handed or I'm first to open in late position.
If you're good enough to beat a $9-$18 hold'em, which is usually a
drop game, you should be playing $15-$30. Even in Vegas, you should
find the $15-$30 to be fairly soft. This will test your skills, as you
will start playing against some professional players, and the table
charges should be about the same, if not lower per hour. Your result
indicate you 're running good, but this should not be a factor in your
decision.
North Shore Mike
Downing) wrote:
>"What are they gonna say man when he's gone...he was a kind man?
>He was a wise man? He had plans, he had wisdom? Bulls--t man. "
I know this is a Dennis Hopper quote. Help me remember what movie
this is from?
North Shore Mike
http://www3telus.net/northshoremike/northshoremike
Photos, trip reports, quotes, and other lame crap.
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PacPalBuzz
From: danie...@yahoo.com (Sodapop)
Date: Fri, Jan 25, 2002 2:51 PM
Message-id: <ede86e8b.02012...@posting.google.com> >>
Dan - I’m sorry to hear that your streak has ended. It seemed pretty amazing to
me, regardless of the number of tables involved.
Thanks for sharing you ideas on strategy. Your ideas seem remarkably similar to
those found in the literature. I’m paraphrasing your ideas below.
(play tight)
(A234 is a good starting hand)
(AA2X suited is a good starting hand)
(AAKK, double suited is a good starting hand)
(tend not to play hands without aces)
(aces and little cards have good scoop possibilities)
(small and medium pairs are poor because of the danger of higher sets or full
houses)
(hands with re-draw possibilities are good)
(play hands with coordinated cards)
(paired aces, kings and queens are good)
(aceless hands with all cards above ten are good)
(QQKJ is good, especially double suited)
(double suitedness adds value)
(nut flush draws are good)
(non-nut flush draws are poor)
(paired boards supercede flush draws)
(play good poker)
(flopped straights often don’t hold up)
(wrap around straight draws are good with rainbow flops)
(play more aggressively as game gets shorthanded)
(usually only draw to the nuts)
(play for scoopers)
(pre-flop raise about a third of the time)
(Any big pair is worth a raise, IMO, if you can get heads up with a blind
hand). - I don’t recall ever seeing that idea written in quite that way before,
but it makes sense. Big pairs are certainly good when you are heads-up, and
getting heads-up with a blind hand has to be a generally favorable situation.
Thus raising with a hand that plays better one-on-one, if raising will
accomplish your purpose, is worthwhile. Alas, often raising does not accomplish
that goal. Depends on your opponents.
At any rate, thanks for sharing your ideas. It does not sound like you and I
play very much differently. There are a few other ideas you’ll pick up in Ray
Zee’s book, which will be very helpful to you.
Buzz
David Downing
dd
North Shore Mike
Downing) wrote:
>the best film ever made, of course...Apocalypse Now
>
>dd
D-OH! thanks.....
>>>"What are they gonna say man when he's gone...he was a kind man?
>>>He was a wise man? He had plans, he had wisdom? Bulls--t man. "
>>
>>I know this is a Dennis Hopper quote. Help me remember what movie
>>this is from?
>>
>>
>>North Shore Mike
North Shore Mike
Photos, trip reports, and other lame crap at:
http://www3.telus.net/northshoremike/northshoremike/
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