Sour Sourdough Bread
Joseph Cartwright
sourdough bread. I am using starter obtained from Carl Griffith. I have
followed the directions found on this newsgroup and the internet along with
Carl's own instruction for care of the starter and the making of bread. My
loaves have come out smelling like sourdough but they do not taste sour. I
have tried refrigerating the dough to ferment but this has not seemed to
make any difference. In fact the dough continues to rise in the
refrigerator (yes it's working at the right temp.) almost as fast as it does
out. Could someone give me some tips on how to get that wonderful sour
taste? I have read the FAQ but this still did not answer my question.
Thanks.
Dick Adams
"Joseph Cartwright" <joeb...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:aYiPa.94162$Io.81...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> ... My loaves have come out smelling like sourdough but they do not
> taste sour ... Could someone give me some tips on how to get that
> wonderful sour taste?
There are two schools -- one favors souring a preferment or a series
of them (by long incubations), and the other (my choice) holds that the
way to do it is to let the dough rise for a long time, working from
preferments which are taken at yeast-activity peak (as best that can
be estimated).
With a high-rising starter, like Carl's, the loaves may get pretty bloated
before flavors develop, so a reformation sometime during the rise may
be in order. You could also try working from a soured sponge, but I
do not recommend it, if you like your dough to rise nicely.
Eight hours or so at ~68°F. (room temperature if you are lucky) is not
too long for rising. Takes longer at lower temperature and goes faster
at higher temperatures.
--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com
Samartha Deva
There is a difference between the plain sour taste and the taste of
fermented sourdough which has sourness but a lot of other taste
components, which is probably what you are after.
I think that the fridge rise is counterproductive since low temp = low
fermentation. That it takes a while for your loaf in the fridge to cool
down is besides the point. The growth rate of the microorganisms is
strongly temperature dependent with different optimumns of yeast and
lactobacillus. If you grow your starter and ferment your dough at higher
temperature - at 90 F, you may get higher activity of the lactobacillus
bacteria.
Not knowing your timings and temperatures and all the other gory
details, here is a couple of ideas, in case you are not already doing
it:
- increase your fermentation temperature
- increase your fermentation time
- punch down your dough (deflate, stretch, fold - repeat this a couple
of times) and let it rise again.
- split your dough, bake one part and ferment the other part more, then
find if the difference is getting you closer to what you want.
- observe the dough when you ferment for a longer time, if you see the
structure deteriorating more than you can tolerate, bake it right away -
it will still come out well (I am always surprised that it does).
- use a baking stone
- use bread flour with malted barley added
- bake your bread so the crust browns well since a lot of taste
components come from crust browning.
> I have read the FAQ but this still did not answer my question.
The FAQ has the purpose to bring people to their senses and find what
they really want and I wonder why DA is not coming up with his
"sourdough bread is not supposed to taste sour anyway - what do you
want?"
Samartha
--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
Dick Adams
"Samartha Deva" <sdnews-inbox...@samartha.net> wrote in message news:3F0ED754...@samartha.net...
> ... I wonder why DA is not coming up with his "sourdough bread
> is not supposed to taste sour anyway - what do you want?"
Who said that? Not me. I never said such a dumb thing. Well,
I have argued against souring preferments, but that is about as far
as that goes.
---
DA
Samartha Deva
I am sorry, you are right - yours was the starter not getting/being sour
and I blew it up to the whole bread not getting sour. Mind never gets
enough....
May the sourdough fairies support me and the fermenting gremlins show
mercy... I am growing a starter right now, hope my good SD karma holds
:-(
Samartha
>
> ---
> DA
Charles Perry
Samartha Deva wrote:
>
> There is a difference between the plain sour taste and the taste of
> fermented sourdough which has sourness but a lot of other taste
> components, which is probably what you are after.
Exactly, sour is just a taste as is sweet ,bitter, or salty. Flavor is the total
of the basic tastes and the aroma componets detected by the nose.
> I think that the fridge rise is counterproductive since low temp = low
> fermentation. That it takes a while for your loaf in the fridge to cool
> down is besides the point.
Dick Adams made the point that extending the fermentation or rise will give the
sour taste and other flavors time to develop. He was speaking about room
temperature or higher and I agree with that. I have made the point that long
fermentation will improve the flavor of the bread. One way to get the flavor
improvement *without* an unnecessary increase in the sour taste is to extend the
fermentation at cooler temperatures.
> The growth rate of the microorganisms is
> strongly temperature dependent with different optimumns of yeast and
> lactobacillus. If you grow your starter and ferment your dough at higher
> temperature - at 90 F, you may get higher activity of the lactobacillus
> bacteria.
Well, if charts by highly regarded authors are correct, 80F to 85F should be
plenty warm enough to give the advantage to the Lb. I have not tested that
myself.
> ... I wonder why DA is not coming up with his
> "sourdough bread is not supposed to taste sour anyway..
It was me who got on the soap box and proclaimed that sour taste is not
necessarily a virtue in plain white sourdough bread. And I stand by that rant.
Regards,
Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to: che...@aol.com
** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
Joseph Cartwright
want to thank all of you who responded and to add a little more info.
Basically I am trying to get that "sour" taste as described. Here's what I
have done so far.
First I tried fermenting the sponge for and extened period, 24hrs at about
78 to 85 deg F. Then I mixed the dough and allowed it to rise at the same
temp. The dough was puched down and workded briefly three times before the
final rise before baking. This first batch had a hint of a sour taste and a
great sour smell, but not yet what I was working towards.
After this I tried fermenting the sponge at room temp. 78 to 85 deg. F. for
24 hours then making up the dough and refridgerating it for another 24 hrs,
punching it down and working briefly in between risings before taking it out
of the fridge for the final rise at room temp and baking. This did not have
any sour taste at all.
My third try with this was to refrigerate the stater to ferment for 24 hours
then making up the dough and refridgerating again for another 24 hours,
punching down and working as before taking it out of the fridge for the
final rise at room temp and baking. This again did not have any sour taste
at all.
I am going to try fermenting the sponge and dough again at room temp and
extend the ferment times to see if this will make an improvement.
I am using high gluten bread flour and baking on a baking stone and I spray
the bread while baking with water to develop a nice chewey crust.
While I understand that sourdough does not necessarily make a "sour" bread I
started baking with it for this purpose. Can't stand to pay several dollars
for something I can make for pennies. Perhaps I need a different starter?
Keep the Ideas a commin.
Best Regards,
Joseph Cartwright
Dick Adams
"Joseph Cartwright" <joeb...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:SoCQa.1586$Mc.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Perhaps I need a different starter? Keep the Ideas a commin.
Hey, maybe you need to include some spelt?
Well, you could review the thread so far.
But I don't think you will.
Happy SD bricks!
Burma Shave.
Samartha Deva
Your systematic approach shows you probably more than anyone else
telling you.
If you have not looked there:
under Carls I and Carls II and particular under
"How to bake a SF style sourdough bread" you will find timings,
temperatures and pH values of starters and doughs.
All those breads were "sour".
What seems to be also of great importance is the "aliveness" of your
starter used influencing all the following steps.
there:
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#GC
you can see that the vitality diminishes once you go over a certain
point, the culture will become very sour but vitality will deteriorate
more and more.
When growing your starter for 24 hours without replenishing, you sure
will be into phase 6 and the sourness you have in your bread could
originate from the starter and not from fermentation happening in the
dough. This is a way of making bread - i. e. the sourness is developed
in the starter part and a higher amount of starter is used for making
bread, but typically more with rye breads. With white breads, it appears
to me that the sourness is more developed in the dough fermentation
stages.
I was growing white starter in at least 3 stages, tripling the flour
content with each stage. In the first two stages, I was looking for
aliveness, and once it was bubbling for a while, I would feed again.
Then, with the last stage, I would go "all the way" until it really was
going "ripe" i. e. structurally deteriorating and becoming much less
active. This starter I would use for making dough.
With my rye mix breads, I find that increasing the dough fermentation
from 1.5 x 1.5 hours to 2.5 x. 2.5 hours with dough temperatures in the
85 F - 93 F are makes a big difference in sour taste. That's with 28 %
starter flour (baker's %).
And you sure don't need a different starter - Carls I & II above were
with the same starter you are using - just treat it right.
Samartha
ab
the canned milk section.) I usually add about 1 tablespoon to 3 cups flour,
but to each his own. You may want to add more or less.
AB
"Joseph Cartwright" <joeb...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:SoCQa.1586$Mc.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Sorry to be so late in responding to your advice. I've been away awhile.
I
> want to thank all of you who responded and to add a little more info.
> Basically I am trying to get that "sour" taste as described.
>
> Joseph Cartwright
>
>
>
Charles Perry
Joseph Cartwright wrote:
> ... Perhaps I need a different starter?
> Keep the Ideas a commin.
I was going to respond to the original poster's reiterated request for
information on how get more sour taste into his bread, but I visited Samartha's
site and found there about all knowledge required to bake SF sourdough in a
manner that results in a bread with more sour taste than, say, the Adam's pan
bread recipe. Most of what I intended to say would be redundant.
However, since you asked, I will will highlight some of the important things and
add a comment or several. First, I agree with Dick and Samartha about the
importance of having a fresh lively starter. I will say , if your storage
leaven is in good active condition, you can get by with doubling when building
your starter to the quantity needed for the dough. I know you can go from a
tablespoon to a 1/4 cup to a 1/2 cup to end up with about a cup of active start
because I do it often. I f your storage leaven is not very active, you should
fix that first or be sure to use Samartha's tripling or quadrupling suggestion.
Samartha also recommends that you run the final build of the starter well past
its peak. I have often let the pan bread sponge work over night and often that
takes it well past its peak, but not as far past as Samartha's recommendation,
with no adverse consequences. I tend to think that deliberately souring the
starter belongs with rye breads and is not necessary for plain white bread.
However, since I don't have much experience with deliberatly soured start, I
will reserve further comment on that.
The dough should be a little thicker than the usual run of sourdough. I believe
that Samartha's hydration on the Carl's Friends sourdough recipe was 60% as
opposed to the usual quote of 68% or more for plain bread.
Also of note, the amount of inoculation in samatha's CF- SF recipe was less than
usual or at least less than the pan bread recipe. see:
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/panbread.html
In fact, you could make the case that the inoculation in the pan bread recipe is
100% It is a bit arbitrary with a sponge where growing the start stops and
where the dough making begins.
I would comment that since you are going for a long fermentation, it is not
necessary for much mechanical development. You can substitute time for most of
the kneading. After the dough is mixed, just let it rest for 30 min. then fold
it. Samartha mentions stretching and folding, the way I do it is to lift each
of the four (imaginary) corners of the dough and fold them into the center.
Gentle is the word here. You can repeat this wait and fold two or three times.
until the dough is nice. You will know. I have not found any benefit or harm,
for that matter, doing the folding more than three times.
Time and temperature are the two main variables left once you have your low
hydration and low inoculation dough mixed. What will determine the end time is
the fact that you want to bake the bread before the ongoing chemical development
of the dough (rotting as Dick puts it) destroys the structural integrity of the
dough and you have a blob of foamy stuff. The big problem that I have
encountered with extended fermentation is that the "skin" or "gluten cloak" that
holds the loaf together gives way first and makes you glad that you have the
dough in a pan. You may want a strategy that delays the formation of the loaf
that allows fermentation to continue before you create the skin.
This extended rounding up procedure has worked for me. Gently pour the risen
dough on to the bread board. divide it into two parts with your dough knife.
Turn the dough so that the cut side is down, dust the top with flour, and gently
round the dough into a boule. *Dust* the top with flour, cover with plastic
wrap and let rest for 20 to 30 min. Again dust the top of the dough and reform
the boule by cupping your hands around the dough and pulling them down while
slightly rotating the ball and pulling it towards you at the same time. You
can do this twice more. Lightly dusting the dough is important.
Now it is time to form the loaf and I really recommend that you use a mold such
as a bread pan until you are happy with your bread. The time remaining will
depend on your proofing temperature. Samartha recommends 90F-95F, I would go a
little cooler, maybe 85F, even when trying for sour bread. When I ran a food
service operation, I could always tell when my head baker was in trouble with
his schedule. He would have his proofing boxes cranked up all the way. The
dinner rolls that were proofed above 90F always had an odd after taste so I
believe that there may be some unintended consequences if you push the dough
with too high a temperature.
Some people say that adding one to three tablespoons of rye flour per loaf will
make the bread more sour. I don't agree , but it does add a complexity to the
flavor that I find pleasant at times.
In short, it's simple. To get more "sour" get a stiffer dough with a lower
inoculation and ferment it longer at a warmer temperature. The devil truly is
in the details.
Regards,
Joseph Cartwright
to thank Samartha Deva (what a web site! Some serious professional info on
bread!) and Dick Adams. I thought you would like an update on my quest.
After reading and digesting you comments and reviewing Samarthas website I
took another crack at it. This time I made up my sponge and allowed it to
ferment at 78-80 deg. F. for a full 24 hours. After great anticipation I
looked at the fermented sponge. Hmmmm.... I sure hope this is still going
to work. The spong looked near spent and there was a layer of hooch
floating on the top. Something I never saw except when I stored my starter
in the fridge. Made up the dough anyway and allowd to rise at 78-80 deg. F..
Puched down and reformed 4 times before splitting the dough into smaller
loaves for the final rise before baking, all told approximately 10 hours.
Baked as normal on a stone, and an iron skillet. The
result.....Horrayy!!!... fragrant, sour, delicious loavs of sourdough bread.
Had to slap my wife and children away to keep them from devouring it all
before it had a chance to cool and further develope its crust and flavor.
So, thanks again for all your help. Couldn't have done it without your
help. Keep up the good work and passing along your excellent advice. Take
care.
Best Regards,
Joseph Cartwright
Dick Adams
"Joseph Cartwright" <joeb...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:rbGRa.7625$Mc.5...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> [ ... ]
Horrayy!!!... fragrant, sour, delicious loavs of sourdough bread.
Had to slap my wife and children away to keep them from devouring it all
before it had a chance to cool and further develope its crust and flavor.
Good work on that, old boy. Now, when you get the 24-hr. retardation
under your belt, you can step forward as yet another advisor and role model
for the newbies.
Incidentally, you misspelled the word "loavs". Here at r.f.s., we spell that
word "loafs".
---
DickA
fred
"Dick Adams" <bad....@nonexist.com> wrote in message
news:nQSRa.61520$3o3.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Incidentally, you misspelled the word "loavs". Here at r.f.s., we spell
that
word "loafs".
---
DickA
You might in your dialect! Loaves is the correct plural for loaf. "Loafs" is
the 3rd person singular of the verb "to loaf" i.e., to spend time idly, but
perhaps that's what you do!
Samartha Deva
> Incidentally, you misspelled the word "loavs". Here at r.f.s., we spell that
> word "loafs".
Darn! I just changed all the loafs on my web site to loaves because I
was advised that this would be the correct spelling and my dictionary
confirmed that. Now, would the sourdough language experts please speak
up and tell me what is correct? Maybe both are ok?
Mike Avery
> Darn! I just changed all the loafs on my web site to loaves because I
> was advised that this would be the correct spelling and my dictionary
> confirmed that. Now, would the sourdough language experts please speak
> up and tell me what is correct? Maybe both are ok?
I believe Dick was engaging in his often skewed humor. Loaves is
correct. Loafs is, as another poster suggested, a term indicating
indolent behavior.
And... ya gotta watch out for the self-appointed English teachers...
most know less than the person they are correcting.
Mike
--
Mike Avery
MAv...@mail.otherwhen.com
ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *
Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
A beard
That's rough
And overgrown
is better than
A chaperone
Burma-Shave
Dick Adams
"Samartha Deva" <sdnews-inbox...@samartha.net> wrote in message news:3F17FE93...@samartha.net...
> Darn! I just changed all the loafs on my web site to loaves because I
was advised that this would be the correct spelling and my dictionary
confirmed that. <
Tony Blair is holding out for what we all know is right.
So why can't you do that?
---
DickA
Mike Avery
>From the Webster's dictionary section of my copy of "Infopedia - the ultimate multimedia
ecyclopedia and reference library"...
> loaf
> 1 loaf \'lof\ n, pl loaves \'lovz\ [ME lof, fr. OE hlaf; akin to OHG hleib
> loaf] (bef. 12c) 1 : a shaped or molded mass of bread 2 : a shaped or
> molded often symmetrical mass of food 3 slang Brit : head, mind 2 loaf vi
> [prob. back-formation fr. loafer ] (1835) : to spend time in idleness
> loafer loafer \'lo-fer\ n [perh. short for landloafer, fr. G Landlaeufer
> tramp, fr. Land + Laeufer runner] (1830) : one that loafs : idler Loafer
> trademark _ used for a low step-in shoe
Loaves is the plural of loaf when referring to bread.
Loafs is an action, or lack thereof, taken by a loafer.
Mike
--
Mike Avery
MAv...@mail.otherwhen.com
ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *
Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Better try
Less speed per mile
That car
May have to
Last a while
Burma-Shave
Joseph Cartwright
instead of "loavs". In my excitement I dropped my "e" Yes I humbly admit to
committing the capitol crime of making a typo. So shoot me. All kidding
aside, many thanks for your assistance.
Best Regards,
Joseph Cartwright
Samartha Deva
Because the one suggesting it is my equivalent of your MA and I really
don't want to rock the boat, but at least I can do in my kitchen what I
want and steam the shit out of my oven... OK? ;-)
Today it's Pumpernickel.
Samartha
> ---
> DickA
alzelt
Samartha Deva wrote:
> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>
>>Incidentally, you misspelled the word "loavs". Here at r.f.s., we spell that
>>word "loafs".
>
>
> Darn! I just changed all the loafs on my web site to loaves because I
> was advised that this would be the correct spelling and my dictionary
> confirmed that. Now, would the sourdough language experts please speak
> up and tell me what is correct? Maybe both are ok?
>
> Samartha
Ask him to send you a picture of the correct spelling. :)
--
Alan
"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and
avoid the people, you might better stay home."
--James Michener
Samartha Deva
>
> Samartha Deva wrote:
> > Dick Adams wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Incidentally, you misspelled the word "loavs". Here at r.f.s., we spell that
> >>word "loafs".
> >
> >
> > Darn! I just changed all the loafs on my web site to loaves because I
> > was advised that this would be the correct spelling and my dictionary
> > confirmed that. Now, would the sourdough language experts please speak
> > up and tell me what is correct? Maybe both are ok?
> >
> > Samartha
>
> Ask him to send you a picture of the correct spelling. :)
Trying to be funny?
My guess is that it would be really funny if the breads you describe
would not look so great after all.
Maybe that's why you can't show pictures.
High chance for that by my books.
alzelt
Samartha Deva wrote:
Oh, so now you try to shame me. For shame. For some people, the simple
answer will not suffice. I feel no need to take a picture of my breads.
People who eat the bread either like its looks and taste, or not. Beyond
that, I care not. I bake for my enjoyment. And the enjoyment of those
that eat it.
Samartha Deva
...
> I feel no need to take a picture of my breads.
just what was expected - yaaawn..
S.