Teapot design advice
joey...@gmail.com
currently developing a teapot called Sorapot, and I'd love this group's
input. Sorapot is designed specifically for green and white teas that
steep best at below-boiling temperatures. Thus I designed Sorapot to
dissipate the water's heat instead of insulating it like most other
teapots so that the delicate leaves don't oversteep and become bitter
and so the tea is at an ideal drinking temperature once it's poured.
Sorapot's pretty small at 11 oz. and is intended to be used like a
Yixing pot- a quick steep followed by immediate pouring. In fact, the
two pieces that connect the glass tube to the steel arch are made from
unglazed stonewear that will absorb the tea's tannins over time, just
like Yixing clay.
Without further ado: http://www.joeyroth.com/sorapot
Thanks in advance for any questions or comments.
Joey
MarshalN
Hi Joey,
Is this just a concept at this point, or is it already in production?
I can just see this pot dripping all over the place. The spout will
drip if it's shaped like that. At least, every single pot/cup that has
this kind of round spout will drip and won't pour/finish cleanly. I
know, it looks more unified with the spout being round like it is, but
I'd consider changing that.
The other issue.... is that it just sounds a little too complicated
using this pot to make tea. The whole string and ball thing doesn't
sound very intuitive, and I can envision myself trying my hardest to
put the round cylinder into the pot -- with leaves AND hot water
inside! -- having to use a towel to grab the cylinder (because it
dissipates heat, it must be hot to handle) and thus having a slightly
less than ideal grip on it, holding it upright with one hand, and
holding the handle of the pot in the other -- also upright (unless the
water won't spill with the cylinder sideways without the handle --
how?). Trying to fit the cylinder into the handle, then, while it's
not watertight yet (because I haven't adjusted the string-and-ball)
then adjusting the ball while still holding the whole thing upright....
you get the point. That, I'm afraid, cannot be fixed without changing
the design entirely.
Unless there's an opening on the top side of the cylinder that I am not
seeing in the pictures that will allow you to put leaves AND hot water
into the tube comfortable without doing all that, but that would mean
it's not going to be watertight and thus cannot be filled to anything
more than halfway, and presents all sorts of other complications. Of
course, I'd imagine you can pour hot water in from the spout...
but.....
Just my non ID background two cents.
MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN
Dominic T.
I'm all for innovation, and good design, but I think this one kind of
falls flat. Anyone that into greens/whites (myself included) will have
conquered the brewing game early on. A novice may have a cup of
green/white tea from a teabag, but I just don't see a novice even
getting their hands on some loose green/white tea without some idea how
to brew it.
I'm also not sure of your level of understanding with white and green
tea, but the comment you have made about the ends being stoneware like
Yixing would be a *negative* thing. Marring the delicate nature of
these teas with a previously brewed different tea is very easy with
these teas. Yixing is really not to even be used for white or greens,
and that is even using only one tea for the life of the teapot.
I like the design, but not the functionality. Sorry, back to the
drawing board. If you are a designer and by chance not familiar with
him, check out Art Lebedev. Amazing stuff.
Best of luck,
- Dominic
joey...@gmail.com
helpful to me at this point and I appreciate the time you took to go
over my design.
MarshalN (btw your site is great) -Right now this is a late-stage
concept that I'm about to prototype. I've tested the spout shape
and it pours well without dripping- I think the critical drip-free
factor is a hole at the top of the cylinder that will let air enter as
liquid is poured out. Still, if people will look at my teapot and
think that it will drip because of the shape, that's a problem.
Here's the way I envision making tea: put the dry leaves in the tube,
put the tube in the arch/ handle and lock it with the ball. Then you
pour the water through the spout, let the leaves steep and observe them
slowly opening, then pour out all the tea at once (the lid-free design
will make this easier I think). There would be no need at any point in
the process to hold the teapot upright. There will be a mesh screen
between the front of the tube and the arch, which will prevent the
leaves from spilling out but will not restrict the space they have to
unfurl.
Dominic, your point about porous clay being bad for greens and whites
is very useful. Luckily glazing those parts with a clear white finish
won't be so hard. I'm not designing Sorapot to compete with the
gaiwan or traditional Yixing pot, but rather to emphasize the unique
qualities of green and white tea through its physical form; to be a
gift that could introduce tea to someone who loves design.
Your comments definitely got me thinking in some new directions, and
I'd love to hear more.
Thanks!
Joey
Dominic T.
Well at least it seems like you are legit, I purposefully kept my
critique short because I had no way of knowing if this was just some
scam/spam or a serious inquiry and didn't want to waste the effort.
I would offer a couple more thoughts:
While the heatsink idea sounds good, I'd drop it. I'd also drop the
white/green tea only angle. If anything just label it as a teapot and
that it offers some cooling due to the design.
Again green/white tea can be very different and can vary wildly in
brewing time/temp/technique. No offense is meant but it would appear
that you may need to research the truth of brewing green and white teas
a bit more. The screen up front means that while it is small and is
supposed to dissipate heat, you are pouring *past* the tea leaves in
what would appear to me to be a fairly slow pour. This is actually
going to make the tea bitter and overbrewed for many teas, countering
any benefit of the heatsinking, etc.
Also, once the too hot water has touched the leaves, no heatsink alive
is going to repair the damage done. Again, this is why I say to drop
the green/white angle since it really doesn't apply.
I'd be wary of the spout, and I think many folks familiar with teapot
design would be too. It may work well as you state, but I'd almost have
to see it work to buy one just from past experience. Not often the case
with a product in a box on a shelf.
You almost would be better having the back 1/4 of the tube have the
screen and some sort of access to place the leaves in. Then have the
opening to pour in the water in the front 3/4. This would then minimize
the contact of the water/tea quickly after pouring has begun and would
possibly help utilize the heatsink feature a bit before the water if a
bit too hot kills the tea. Just a quick thought... I have to admit I
didn't put much time in so there may be a flaw in my logic.
Also, just an FYI. many people believe in keeping the "root" of green
tea alive through brewing. Meaning to keep some water with the leaves
and continue to add to it for subsequent brews. Again, why a serious
green tea drinker might pass... and why it may be better marketed as a
standard teapot.
I like the design, I like the lines, it is creative and different and I
could see more of a desire from the trendy/fashionable crowd than a
serious green/white tea drinker.
I'd be interested in hearing a bit about your interest and experience
with tea!
- Dominic
Lewis Perin
> [...design considerations...]
>
> Your comments definitely got me thinking in some new directions, and
> I'd love to hear more.
It's a striking object to look at, but I do have one big worry about
it as a brewer of good green tea. A big part of the pot's premise is
to start hot and pour warm, and I worry that green tea leaves that
spend any amount of time too hot will yield a nasty liquor. Were you
contemplating the use of boiling water? I sure hope not, as I don't
think there's any variety of green tea that would benefit from that.
/Lew
---
Lew Perin / pe...@acm.org
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
Derek
> Without further ado: http://www.joeyroth.com/sorapot
I think the design is stunning. And I'm somewhat of a traditionalist who's
not that fond of industrial/modern designs..
The ability to watch the leaves "dance" in the water is appealing, as is
the sensible addition of a filter so that you don't have to strain the tea.
Any concerns I have were already mentioned by Dominic.
I am also interested, however, to see how well the "watertight seal"
actually works. I've yet to see a pressure based seal on a drinking vessel
that holds its water, as it were, that didn't involve an o-ring.
--
Derek
"It is better to be quotable than to be honest." -- Tom Stoppard
Phyll
> put the tube in the arch/ handle and lock it with the ball. Then you
> pour the water through the spout, let the leaves steep and observe them
> slowly opening, then pour out all the tea at once (the lid-free design
> will make this easier I think).
Hello Joey,
Nice design, but I have to echo others' skepticism here. Pouring water
through the spout is not a step I would enjoy, unless you are designing
an efficient and stunning looking funnel to complete the set. Your
whole design has that industrial sophistication edge to it, though in
my humble opinion anything involving tea should be kept as simple as
possible. Or perhaps I'm just not the consumer in your niche market.
Phyll
MarshalN
That's definitely something to think about as well. I'd imagine some
serious tests need to be performed -- fatigue tests to make sure the
grip on the cylinder to make it watertight won't start loosening up by
the 3rd month of using the pot, something like that. Once it leaks,
the thing's done for.
Pouring through the spout is really not a good way to go. It invites
all sorts of problems. If you, say, boil water through a regular stove
kettle, where the pour is often quick, swift, and hard to control....
how do you pour carefully through the spout without some (I'd say
inevitable) spilling? Someone who buys a teapot like this will not,
IMHO, be the crowd who's willing to clean up spills everytime they add
water.
I think others are also right that the idea is to pour warm water into
the pot, rather than hot water, for green/whites. It matters not so
much what temperature it comes out at, but it matters GREATLY what
temperature water goes in to the leaves. Like Dominic said... if the
tea is brewed with water that's too hot, it's over and the rest of the
brews will be colourful but flavourless (or even nasty).
One more thing... what will the central cylinder be made of? Glass, I
presume? If it's plastic... the thing will stain after a while and the
stain will not be washable.
MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN
Mike Fulton
I must commend you on an interesting looking design. My fiancee and I
were just commenting on how it looks like something you'd find off the
set of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. But some comments:
Like Marsha said, the spout's gonna drip. My electric kettle's spout is
shaped the same way, and it drips and leaks like a Southern politician
before a Senate Review Committee. I would make the spout rounder and
longer if I were you (I was thinking something more arabesque...like
you'd see with traditional tea pots in North Africa for mint tea?).
Though I'm not sure if this is what you want, since this would probably
interfere with the "cubist" looking design you already have.
Second, I might be a purist, but I tend to forego using a teapot when
brewing greens, which is very rarely since I don't like a lot of green
teas. And what greens I do have, I take them with bacon. :-)
The whole point of a tea pot is to keep the beverage warm for a long
period of time. When brewing more 'delicate' teas, I use a gaiwan. I
really think that black and pu-erhs really are the best when it comes
to tea pot brewing.
However, I'm not an engineer, and I hate physics. Maybe there is some
way to design this pot for green tea while making it ergonomically
simple?
Cheers!
Mike
joey...@gmail.com
is extremely helpful for the development process.
Dominic- Positioning the Sorapot as a teapot that works with all loose
teas, not just greens and whites, could be a good way to go. I do
think that emphasizing all the space the leaves have to unfurl is
important though, especially because in my experience, most modern
teapots restrict the leaves to a small basket. I agree that pouring
boiling water on green leaves will ruin them, no matter how quickly the
water cools down after that. I'd never encourage people to use boiling
water, and plan to include info about that in the package copy.
I've loved tea for a long time and actually posted a bit to this group
back in 2000-2001:
I still enjoy tea every day, but as you can see, my knowledge has
gotten rusty.
Lewis- Thank you for you comment, and your point about boiling water is
also well taken. I'll make sure to point this out in the package copy.
Maybe an invitation for customers to visit this group to find out more
about tea would be good.
Derek- Thank you also for your comment. You're definitely right about
the o-ring. I should make this more clear in my drawings, but there is
actually a natural silicone gasket that connects the front of the glass
tube to the ceramic piece. The mesh screen is embedded in this gasket.
Phyll- Figuring out how people could get water into the Sorapot was one
of the toughest parts of the design process. As you can see here
http://www.joeyroth.com/soraschema.jpg I wanted to use a traditional
lid in the original design. That proved to be impractical for
manufacturing and aesthetic reasons, so I began to work on other
water-delivery methods. I designed the spout to be "funnel-like"
enough that pouring won't need to be that precise. However, if just
the idea of pouring into the spout is off-putting, regardless of how
hard or easy it is, it's something I need to reexamine.
MarshalN- Thanks for bringing this up. There will definitely be a lot
of stress tests performed before I put this on the market, for
insurance reasons but mostly because I personally want this product to
last a long, long time for my customers. One of the main reasons I got
into industrial design was my frustration with the built-in
obsolescence that characterizes a lot of products nowadays. It may
help sell more units in the short-term, but it will kill the emotional
connection that people develop with the everyday objects they love, it
leads to pollution, and it really makes the product less successful and
less admirable. I'm going to have a final prototype soon and plan to
begin selling during next year's holiday season, so I'm leaving a lot
of time for torture testing.
The cylinder will be made from high-grade borosilicate lab glass, which
is inert and very easy to wash. I've had similarly bad stain
experiences with plastic tea and coffee vessels, so there was no way I
was going to go down that path.
Mike- Although my design philosophy is rooted in traditional Japanese
folk crafts, now that you mention it I can definitely see the DS-9
influence. It was my favorite show as a kid, so maybe the curved,
dull-colored metal mixed with brown and gray outfits on the show was
more influential than I had imagined. I have always loved a contrast
between sleek and rustic, which I think was a large part of the series,
in terms of both look and theme.
I agree that a gaiwan is the perfect vessel for making delicate tea. I
have two that I use all the time- one is white glazed porcelain and the
other is clear Pyrex. Sorapot isn't designed to compete with the
gaiwan- it's more focused on sharing tea with friends, gift-giving, and
interesting design.
If any of you are local to NYC, I'd love to set up a meeting where I'd
bring a Sorapot for you to use and discuss; probably in February or
March. Please let me know if you'd be interested, and I'll make sure I
have a prototype ready by then. "Drinks" will be on me of course.
Warm regards,
Joey
MarshalN
I think a few of us here are in the NYC area. I know I will visit the
city probably sometime in March and meet up with a few people there,
most likely...
I forgot one thing, Joey -- the filter/mesh will also absorb tastes
from tea, if it's anywhere near conventional mesh filters that I've
seen using some sort of synthetic material (I'm not sure what that
stuff is). That, I am afraid, is almost unavoidable. Unless you use a
metal grill... which will be better, IMHO, although I can see how that
might present other problems....
MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN
Derek
> I forgot one thing, Joey -- the filter/mesh will also absorb tastes
> from tea, if it's anywhere near conventional mesh filters that I've
> seen using some sort of synthetic material (I'm not sure what that
> stuff is). That, I am afraid, is almost unavoidable. Unless you use a
> metal grill... which will be better, IMHO, although I can see how that
> might present other problems....
Piggybacking...
Might not the same thing be said for the "Natural silicone" o-rings? I'm
out of my area here, but how "non-reactive" is natural silicone?
--
Derek
"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel
Goldwyn ("Goldwyn's Law of Contracts")
Lewis Perin
> On 9 Dec 2006 09:26:28 -0800, MarshalN wrote:
>
> > I forgot one thing, Joey -- the filter/mesh will also absorb tastes
> > from tea, if it's anywhere near conventional mesh filters that I've
> > seen using some sort of synthetic material (I'm not sure what that
> > stuff is). That, I am afraid, is almost unavoidable. Unless you use a
> > metal grill... which will be better, IMHO, although I can see how that
> > might present other problems....
>
> Piggybacking...
>
> Might not the same thing be said for the "Natural silicone" o-rings? I'm
> out of my area here, but how "non-reactive" is natural silicone?
And how natural is silicone?
Patrick Heinze
> Thus I designed Sorapot to
> dissipate the water's heat instead of insulating it like most other
> teapots so that the delicate leaves don't oversteep and become bitter
> and so the tea is at an ideal drinking temperature once it's poured.
Hi,
I may be wrong on that, but as far as I am concerned I like my teapot to
insulate rather than letting the water cool down. Then, I just let
cool down the water to the right temperature and pour it over the leaves
that are placed in the preheated pot. That way, the temperature stays at
a well-defined temperature over the whole infusion process (okay..maybe
not so well defined, but still more or less constant, depending of
course on the infusion time). Still, that is what allows systematic
variaton of infusion temperatures.
Joey, I, too, like your concept of design, yet I think a vast
temperature drop over the infusion time, no matter what the initial
temperature of the water might be, does not serve any good.
cu
Patrick
--
"But please remember: this is only a work of fiction.
The truth, as always, will be far stranger"
Arthur C. Clarke, 2001 - A Space Odyssey
joey...@gmail.com
it's chemically inert and imparts no taste and is stable at up to 400
degrees F. Silicone's used directly in food preparation methods like
sous-vide, and I've tested it myself for odor and taste under hot hot
temperatures. One of the things I'm most looking forward to for the
NYC March meeting is serving tea with the Sorapot and seeing if people
who are experts at tasting tea can detect anything "funny". The taste
of the tea isn't something I'm willing to compromise on.
Patrick, your comment that an insulated pot allows you more control
over the steeping is a good point. The Sorapot's designed more to
emphasize the process of water turning into tea in a striking way than
to be a precise tool for conniseurs though- I think the gaiwan's
captured that niche, and I can't see how it could be improved.
I designed the Sorapot to cool so that a host can place it in front of
guests, pour on water, and then observe the unfurling and movement of
the leaves without worrying about oversteeping. However, your point is
very well taken, and I'm looking into insulated glass tubes as an
option that customers can request.
I'm going to set up a section on www.joeyroth.com soon about the New
York demonstration and discussion. Until then, if you or anyone you
know might be interested, and if you know of any good locations, please
shoot me an email: jo...@joeyroth.com
Thanks again RFDT,
Joey
Space Cowboy
white,green,oolong is for rapid cooling plus the agony of the leaves
which is more prominent for these style of teas. If it's glass the
handle and lid can't get hot. I like pots that have interior surface
volume and wall geometry that causes washing when pouring the water.
The other item to note is fragility. I don't like cradles but they
serve a purpose. I wouldn't be so interested in another glass tea pot
but a glass tea kettle I can sit directly on an electric ceramic burner
without any heat sinks like a trivet and can survive a boil down
without damage to pot or electric range. My current glass pot of
choice is a converted tea press where I remove the plunger and secure
the filter near the top by the spout. I will say on the larger pure
glass teapots in general they aren't easy pourers because of the heat
and slippery glass.
Jim
joey...@gmail.com wrote:
...
Scott Dorsey
>
>Might not the same thing be said for the "Natural silicone" o-rings? I'm
>out of my area here, but how "non-reactive" is natural silicone?
Silicone O-rings are pretty non-reactive and it's very, very nonporous, but
it will still develop a layer of residue on the outside that may affect
taste.
Note that most commercial o-rings are not silicone, because silicone rubbers
are too easy to tear. One small break on the surface will soon grow into
a complete split. You can buy silicone o-rings for some applications where
the wide temperature range is important, though.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Scott Dorsey
Lewis Perin
> Lewis Perin <pe...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >And how natural is silicone?
>
> It's made from rocks.
Ah, right, just like Da Hong Pao!
Scott Dorsey
>klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
>
>> Lewis Perin <pe...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >And how natural is silicone?
>>
>> It's made from rocks.
>
>Ah, right, just like Da Hong Pao!
The Kowloon Vanilla tea is made from black tea and vanillin. Vanillin is
produced by oxidation of xylene, which is made from xylol that is extracted
from wood chips as a byproduct of particle board manufacture. It comes from
wood, so it is perfectly natural.
jacqueli...@gmail.com
It's an interesting idea. I don't really understand how the ball and
string hold the pot together and yet come sufficiently loose to remove
the body. If the ball could come completely off, then the design
simplifies into an elegant plastic cup and lid. You could sit the
kettle upright with the spout (lid) part off, fill up the glass with
tea and water, attach the lid, bring the string down and secure the
ball into a groove and then put the pot horizontal to enjoy the show.
The problem still is how do you secure hot glass when attaching the
lid? Maybe the answer is connected to the question, How do you know
how much water to put in without overfilling the teapot and having hot
water spill out when you put it sideways?
Maybe widen the area where you would hold it on the inside so heat
transfers more slowly there? It's a stop gap solution, I'm very
obviously not a designer I like the idea of seeing the teas without a
nasty filter in the way.
jacqueli...@gmail.com
joey...@gmail.com
Thanks for taking the time to share your design ideas. What you
describe is actually very similar to the design I had for Sorapot about
a year ago: the spout section would be like a threaded jar lid that
would screw onto the glass tube. I found that having a single metal
arch was simpler and looked better, but your idea is a good one,
especially if the ball and wire is used instead of the threading that
my original design called for.
The ball and wire clamping works because of the silicone o-ring's
ability to compress. When you're moving the ball into the locking
position, the arch actually becomes tighter right before the ball falls
into position than it will be when sealed. This tighter stage prevents
the ball from slipping out of its indent by accident, but can be
overcome with purposeful force when you want to remove the tube.
On another note, the March meeting in NYC is coming together well.
I'll make a section of my site that lists details once these become
more concrete- I'm still very interested in venue suggestions.
Thanks again RFDT!
Joey