Swai

[sf]

Have you tried it? Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
family... I like catfish.

--
I take life with a grain of salt, a slice of lemon and a shot of tequila

[dsi1]

On 10/23/2012 8:18 AM, sf wrote:
>
> Have you tried it? Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
> family... I like catfish.
>

It's being served over here as a substitute for mahimahi in too many
plate lunch places. This is not good. As a substitute for mahimahi, it's
poor. I think it's just so-so but I'm not a big fish eater. I like it
better than catfish because it has less of that catfish taste. I'd
choose swai over tilapia cause the thought eating tilapia gives me the
creeps.

I think basa is also served here as a substitute for mahimahi. These
fishes from Vietnam seem to be taking over - at least in the local cheap
food places. The mainland restaurant chains pretty much stick with
tilapia. In my awesome opinion, swai and basa would be a good substitute
for tilapia.

[Pete C.]

dsi1 wrote:
>
> I'd
> choose swai over tilapia cause the thought eating tilapia gives me the
> creeps.

What's wrong with tilapia? Some of the frozen tilapia from China is
pretty bad, but I've had some jet-fresh non-frozen tilapia from Chile
that was very good.

[George Leppla]

On 10/23/2012 1:18 PM, sf wrote:
>
> Have you tried it? Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
> family... I like catfish.
>

I was told that Swai IS catfish... from out of the country. Seems you
can't import catfish so they gave it a fancy name. Also sold as "Basa".
Have had both and I couldn't tell the difference from catfish.

George L

[dsi1]

It's a cultural thing. The tilapia has been a pest fish here and our
inland waterways are choked with these stinking fish. They've taken over
the waterscape. Mostly, the people raised in Hawaii are repulsed by
tilapia.

[Doug Freyburger]

Sqwertz wrote:

> sf wrote:
>
>> Have you tried it? Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
>> family... I like catfish.
>

> Swai, since it's a sucking bottom feeder like catfish, is what they
> use to suck up all the shit from the bottom of the tilapia ponds
> between harvests. They rotate tilapia and swai (pangasius). The
> pangasius are used to clean the bottoms of the ponds, then they
> refresh the water with a new batch of chemicals for another round of
> tilapia. Then the cycle repeats.

I wish they'd use some sort of crab to clean the ponds between the
cycles. I like plenty of types of crustacean better than plenty of
types of fin fish. The crustaceans would be a "higher better use" in my
very biased opinion. Some sort of crawdad looking/tasting critter.

[Bryan]

On Oct 23, 1:44 pm, dsi1 <d...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
> On 10/23/2012 8:18 AM, sf wrote:
>
>
>
> > Have you tried it?  Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
> > family... I like catfish.
>
> It's being served over here as a substitute for mahimahi in too many
> plate lunch places. This is not good. As a substitute for mahimahi, it's
> poor. I think it's just so-so but I'm not a big fish eater. I like it
> better than catfish because it has less of that catfish taste. I'd
> choose swai over tilapia cause the thought eating tilapia gives me the
> creeps.

I agree that swai is better than catfish, but I wouldn't buy it
twice. I like tilapia.

>
> I think basa is also served here as a substitute for mahimahi. These
> fishes from Vietnam seem to be taking over - at least in the local cheap
> food places. The mainland restaurant chains pretty much stick with
> tilapia. In my awesome opinion, swai and basa would be a good substitute
> for tilapia.

I don't know what basa is, but swai is nothing like tilapia.

--Bryan

[dsi1]

That's OK, it ain't nothing like mahimahi either. The situation is bad
here. You could order a plate lunch expecting mahimahi and get these VN
fish instead. One has to inquire about what kind of fish you're going to
get when you order a mahimani plate. Mahimahi plate lunches have always
been a lunch staple here but now that has been upset. I expect that
within 10 years, we won't be able to get mahimahi anymore. That's the
breaks.

>
> --Bryan
>
>

[Mark Thorson]

Sqwertz wrote:

> They are quite different fish. They come from different families and
> the pangasius is actually a type of shark. The US catfish farmers put

They call it a shark, but it's really a type of catfish.

> up a stink because of them importing pangasius as catfish and labeling
> it as such (since they do taste the same). A lot of restaurants are

It is a catfish, but not the same species grown here.
The U.S. industry got the politicians to make it
illegal to label as catfish.

> still passing off pangasius as catfish. Pangasius costs 1/2 to 1/3rd
> the price of the American catfish - so you can imagine why they're
> pissed.

I'd be less concerned about the species name and
more concerned about the filthy, polluted waters
of the Mekong delta where they are grown.

Even though the labelling restriction is wrong
from a scientific point of view, from a consumer
point of view it makes sense. There should be
a distinction between catfish grown in filthy
U.S. ponds and filthy, polluted Mekong river ponds.

[Pete C.]

All the more reason to eat them into extinction.

[dsi1]

I like your thinking. My guess is that more people eat these fishes than
any other but we've not been able to overfish this species. That's a
crying shame.

My understanding is that the Chinese are trying to breed a tilapia
that's able to tolerate salt water in order for the flesh to be less
like brackish water fish in taste. Some of the tilapia over here have
been reported in be found in our reefs offshore so it sounds like it
could be possible to farm tilapia in the ocean.

[sf]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:25:36 -0500, George Leppla

I haven't tried it, that's why I'm asking.
http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/SeafoodWatch/web/sfw_factsheet.aspx?gid=67

[sf]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 08:44:44 -1000, dsi1
<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

> In my awesome opinion, swai and basa would be a good substitute
> for tilapia.

I'd be more excited if they were good substitutes for cod. I'm not a
big fan of thin fish filets.

[dsi1]

On 10/23/2012 1:00 PM, sf wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 08:44:44 -1000, dsi1
> <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In my awesome opinion, swai and basa would be a good substitute
>> for tilapia.
>
> I'd be more excited if they were good substitutes for cod. I'm not a
> big fan of thin fish filets.
>
>

It's a problem with these new fishes - they're not very wide. We're
doomed to eat thin filets in the near future. Come to think of it, I
better start eating more mahimahi.

[Bryan]

I hope they don't damage the reef ecosytems, but I like the way they
taste. Kudos to the Chinese, but it sounds like Darwin beat them to
the punch.

--Bryan

[Janet Bostwick]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:31:08 -0700 (PDT), Bryan
<bryang...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Oct 23, 5:26 pm, dsi1 <d...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10/23/2012 11:45 AM, Pete C. wrote:

>snip

>>
>> My understanding is that the Chinese are trying to breed a tilapia
>> that's able to tolerate salt water in order for the flesh to be less
>> like brackish water fish in taste. Some of the tilapia over here have
>> been reported in be found in our reefs offshore so it sounds like it
>> could be possible to farm tilapia in the ocean.
>
>I hope they don't damage the reef ecosytems, but I like the way they
>taste. Kudos to the Chinese, but it sounds like Darwin beat them to
>the punch.
>
>--Bryan

Chances are good that they will. We have many non-native fish here in
the states that have over-whelmed the local populations of fish and
damaged the ecosystems. Establishing the relationship between
predator and prey took a long, long time. Escaped breeding fish
aren't part of that balance.
Janet US

[dsi1]

On 10/23/2012 2:31 PM, Bryan wrote:
>
> I hope they don't damage the reef ecosytems, but I like the way they
> taste. Kudos to the Chinese, but it sounds like Darwin beat them to
> the punch.
>
> --Bryan
>

The tilapia was brought in to control the vegetation in our waterways.
They did just that but also replaced our local fish. Not that I know
what fish were there since it's always be tilapia as far as I can remember.

We're so isolated and the diversity of the species so limited that any
introduced plant or animal either does not survive or just goes hog wild
because of lack of competition. It's quite a struggle for us to keep
pests from taking over.

The strawberry guava is causing us problems. It's a great, tasty, fruit
but it's really messing up our ecosystem.

http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/programs/ipif/strawberryguava/strawberry_guava.shtml

[Bryan]

The Earth is way overpopulated. According to Mormon cosmology, that
can only be the result of God having acquired too many plural wives,
or perhaps He got access to Viagra or Cialis, a drug developed by his
spirit sons, and magically transported to his home planet orbiting the
star called Kolob. God help us. Please find a hobby. Watch sports,
or take a cold shower. Put saltpeter in your heavenly meals. The
apocalypse wasn't supposed to be like this.

> Janet US

--Bryan

[Cheryl]

On 10/23/2012 8:53 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:

> Chances are good that they will. We have many non-native fish here in
> the states that have over-whelmed the local populations of fish and
> damaged the ecosystems. Establishing the relationship between
> predator and prey took a long, long time. Escaped breeding fish
> aren't part of that balance.

Several (9?) years ago we had a fish scare here that made national news.
The snakehead fish had been released into the wild, probably from
someone's breeding tank or maybe even from a wholesaler. After reading
about it, I know it's happened in other areas, so I'm not sure why it
was such a hot topic in this area alone. It was Crofton MD. I remember
the news heads telling people to try to fish for them, then notify DNR
or whomever if they caught one. They even poisoned the pond where they
first showed up. After all this time, I guess these measures never
helped as they're prolific in our waters now.

[Cheryl]

On 10/23/2012 6:59 PM, Sqwertz wrote:

> Most of the U.S. catfish is grown in Mississippi river water. And
> that ain't exactly distilled water, either. It's the U.S's most
> polluted river, especially the southernmost portion where are the
> catfish are raised.

Seems like a silly place to cultivate fish if it's so yucky. Do they
have signs telling the catfish to go there? If so, they should really
move those. :|

[jmcquown]

"dsi1" wrote in message news:k66ois$8ou$1...@dont-email.me...

On 10/23/2012 8:18 AM, sf wrote:
>
> Have you tried it? Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
> family... I like catfish.
>

It's being served over here as a substitute for mahimahi in too many
plate lunch places. This is not good. As a substitute for mahimahi, it's
poor. I think it's just so-so but I'm not a big fish eater. I like it
better than catfish because it has less of that catfish taste.

(snip)


Where on earth did you get catfish that had a "catfish taste"? Were you
fishing in the Mississippi River? Farm raised catfish is very mild, IMHO.
I've never heard of Swai.

Jill

[Steve Freides]

Sqwertz wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:26:52 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
>> I'd be less concerned about the species name and
>> more concerned about the filthy, polluted waters
>> of the Mekong delta where they are grown.
>>
>> Even though the labelling restriction is wrong
>> from a scientific point of view, from a consumer
>> point of view it makes sense. There should be
>> a distinction between catfish grown in filthy
>> U.S. ponds and filthy, polluted Mekong river ponds.
>

> Most of the U.S. catfish is grown in Mississippi river water. And
> that ain't exactly distilled water, either. It's the U.S's most
> polluted river, especially the southernmost portion where are the
> catfish are raised.
>

> -sw

Am I the only one who tries to eat only wild-caught fish? We now buy
all our fish at Whole Foods because they display this sort of
information. The thing that started us down this road was reading about
a study of the reaction of the human body to both kinds of salmon -
apparently wild-caught salmon has anti-inflammatory properties.
Farm-raised salmon doesn't simply not have it, it's actually
inflammatory in the human body - at least according to one book I read.

That was enough for me. We eat fish once every week or two and usually
buy Dover Sole (even though we know it's not actually Dover Sole) from
WF. (We _like_ thin fish fillets, breaded and fried.)

-S-

[sf]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:41:50 -0400, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com>
wrote:

>
> Am I the only one who tries to eat only wild-caught fish? We now buy
> all our fish at Whole Foods because they display this sort of
> information.

You're not the only one. I appreciate the labeling at Safeway (I just
buy fresh fish from the counter, not prepackaged or frozen) so I can
keep it to wild caught, North American fish if I want.

[Janet Bostwick]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 06:46:40 -0700, sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:41:50 -0400, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> Am I the only one who tries to eat only wild-caught fish? We now buy
>> all our fish at Whole Foods because they display this sort of
>> information.
>
>You're not the only one. I appreciate the labeling at Safeway (I just
>buy fresh fish from the counter, not prepackaged or frozen) so I can
>keep it to wild caught, North American fish if I want.

I appreciate the labeling and use it to make choices, but I try to eat
sustainable fish. Aren't large ocean predators supposed to be higher
up the mercury food chain?
Janet US

[Steve Freides]

Sqwertz wrote:

> ... Much of
> the Alaskan fish is actually farm raised for half it's life - it was
> only technically "wild" when they caught it.

That's sad.

-S-

[Bryan]

On Oct 24, 7:41 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
> > On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:26:52 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> >> I'd be less concerned about the species name and
> >> more concerned about the filthy, polluted waters
> >> of the Mekong delta where they are grown.
>
> >> Even though the labelling restriction is wrong
> >> from a scientific point of view, from a consumer
> >> point of view it makes sense.  There should be
> >> a distinction between catfish grown in filthy
> >> U.S. ponds and filthy, polluted Mekong river ponds.
>
> > Most of the U.S. catfish is grown in Mississippi river water.  And
> > that ain't exactly distilled water, either.  It's the U.S's most
> > polluted river, especially the southernmost portion where are the
> > catfish are raised.
>
> > -sw
>
> Am I the only one who tries to eat only wild-caught fish?  We now buy
> all our fish at Whole Foods because they display this sort of
> information.  The thing that started us down this road was reading about
> a study of the reaction of the human body to both kinds of salmon -
> apparently wild-caught salmon has anti-inflammatory properties.
> Farm-raised salmon doesn't simply not have it, it's actually
> inflammatory in the human body - at least according to one book I read.

The fish's diet affects it's fatty acid profile.

>
> That was enough for me.  We eat fish once every week or two and usually
> buy Dover Sole (even though we know it's not actually Dover Sole) from
> WF.

It's been a while since I've bought expensive fish.

> (We _like_ thin fish fillets, breaded and fried.)

What oil do you fry in? You may be using oil that similarly promotes
inflammation.
>
> -S-

--Bryan

[dsi1]

On 10/24/2012 2:11 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>
> Where on earth did you get catfish that had a "catfish taste"? Were you
> fishing in the Mississippi River? Farm raised catfish is very mild,
> IMHO. I've never heard of Swai.
>
> Jill

The Nuuanu reservoir actually. Big catfish, big beautiful filets,
horrible pond scum taste. People have been telling me for years that
their catfish doesn't taste like catfish but they've always lied.
Tilapia also has a pond scum taste - it don't matter if they were fished
out of the Ala Wai or if you catch it at the Denny's or Ruby Tuesdays.
I'm not alone in this - a lot of people don't care for the taste. You're
not going to convince us that it's all in our minds. OTOH, swai doesn't
appear to have this flavor deficiency. It's a pretty non-offensive
generic white fish that doesn't come in thick pieces.

[Gary]

Steve Freides wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who tries to eat only wild-caught fish?

ADD ME! heheheh I live on the coast and normally the only time I eat fish
is when friends bring me some, fresh caught that morning. That's frequent
enough for me so I don't often go fishing myself. I *will* go out myself
occasionally and harvest crabs, clams and oysters. That's when I "return
the favor" to my fishing friends by sharing. :-D

Gary

[Gary]

Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> Aren't large ocean predators supposed to be higher
> up the mercury food chain?

Yes, they are. The smaller the fish you eat will be safer for you as to
mercury content per pound of fish meat.

G.

[Steve Freides]

Sqwertz wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 11:29:32 -0400, Susan wrote:
>
>> x-no-archive: yes
>>
>> On 10/24/2012 11:22 AM, Sqwertz wrote:
>>> And "wild" doesn't really tell the truth any more. Much of

>>> the Alaskan fish is actually farm raised for half it's life - it was
>>> only technically "wild" when they caught it.
>>

>> I haven't seen this claim before, can you provide some citations?
>
> Yes.
>
> -sw

Spoken like a geometry teacher.

"What's the test on?"

"Paper."

-S-

[Dave Smith]

It has more to do with them being higher up on the food chain than their
size. Heavy metals and toxins tend to accumulate in the flesh. When a
critter contains those elements they are absorbed into the bodies of
those who eat them, and then into the bodies of those who eat them, and
so on and so on.

[Mark Thorson]

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:26:52 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > I'd be less concerned about the species name and
> > more concerned about the filthy, polluted waters
> > of the Mekong delta where they are grown.
> >
> > Even though the labelling restriction is wrong
> > from a scientific point of view, from a consumer
> > point of view it makes sense. There should be
> > a distinction between catfish grown in filthy
> > U.S. ponds and filthy, polluted Mekong river ponds.
>
> Most of the U.S. catfish is grown in Mississippi river water. And
> that ain't exactly distilled water, either. It's the U.S's most
> polluted river, especially the southernmost portion where are the
> catfish are raised.

I'd still rather have polluted Mississippi catfish
than polluted Mekong catfish, so the distinction
is still consumer-relevant. Of course I don't eat
either one, but I think other people should be given
a chance to know which is which.

[Steve Freides]

Susan wrote:

> I've done some cursory searching, including World Wildlife Foundation
> (which sites the opposite, trying to breed wild caught fish in fish
> farms and failing) and Seafood Watch as well as a more general google
> search. I found citations referring to strict labeling to distinguish
> wild from farmed fish, but not a single citation supporting the idea
> that most wild caught fish have been previously farmed.

I don't think that's what was meant. I took it the other way, that fish
are caught when young and "finished" in captivity. The concept would be
similar to something done with cattle which are sometimes range fed and
then brought into feed lots for a while (a few months? I don't really
know) before slaughter.

-S-

[gregz]

sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:41:50 -0400, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Am I the only one who tries to eat only wild-caught fish? We now buy
>> all our fish at Whole Foods because they display this sort of
>> information.
>
> You're not the only one. I appreciate the labeling at Safeway (I just
> buy fresh fish from the counter, not prepackaged or frozen) so I can
> keep it to wild caught, North American fish if I want.

Wild interior fish. Watch limits. There is severe limit on consumption on
great lakes. Pcb's

Greg

[sf]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 09:20:08 -0600, Janet Bostwick
<nos...@cableone.net> wrote:

> I appreciate the labeling and use it to make choices, but I try to eat
> sustainable fish. Aren't large ocean predators supposed to be higher
> up the mercury food chain?

Of course! You also need to be cautious of PCB's. I don't eat
halibut or swordfish but I have to admit that tuna (Ahi) sashimi calls
my name on occasion. If I had a smart phone, I'd be checking Monterey
Bay as I bought my fish because their lists change. Fortunately, I'm
not a fish lover so I don't require much variety and I mainly buy cod
to make fish tacos... which is a real cr*p shoot to buy when you don't
have the list of what's okay and what's not in front of you (no, I
don't plan ahead).

I see monkfish is on the avoid list (I'll assume it was over fished),
which explains why I never see it. We're so close to Monterey Bay and
customers are so well informed here that I imagine Safeway's central
office would never hear the end of it if they put an "avoid" fish in
the fish case.

The problem is they don't list the way the fish was caught and that's
often the main reason to avoid. If I went down to the boats and
bought directly from there, I'd know if they were caught by hook and
line - but I don't and I live next to the Pacific ocean.

[sf]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 11:27:09 -0400, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com>
wrote:

I imagine that's what Monterey Bay is talking about when they say a
fish was "wild caught". We have to keep the fisheries numbers up
somehow, so I'm fine with letting that farm raised fish go out to
purge itself and grow a bit before I eat it.

[sf]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:56:35 -0400, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

> I've done some cursory searching, including World Wildlife Foundation
> (which sites the opposite, trying to breed wild caught fish in fish
> farms and failing) and Seafood Watch as well as a more general google
> search. I found citations referring to strict labeling to distinguish
> wild from farmed fish, but not a single citation supporting the idea
> that most wild caught fish have been previously farmed.
>

> I'm willing to believe it if citations are provided, it's just new
> information to me.

Here you go
http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/what-is-a-wild-caught-salmon/

[sf]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 15:05:11 -0800, Mark Thorson <nos...@sonic.net>
wrote:

> I'd still rather have polluted Mississippi catfish
> than polluted Mekong catfish, so the distinction
> is still consumer-relevant. Of course I don't eat
> either one, but I think other people should be given
> a chance to know which is which.

You *do* know which is which. They give imported catfish a completely
different, foreign sounding, name so you won't be confused

[Cheri]

"sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:qc3h88pd1ob448tbk...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:56:35 -0400, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:
>
>> I've done some cursory searching, including World Wildlife Foundation
>> (which sites the opposite, trying to breed wild caught fish in fish
>> farms and failing) and Seafood Watch as well as a more general google
>> search. I found citations referring to strict labeling to distinguish
>> wild from farmed fish, but not a single citation supporting the idea
>> that most wild caught fish have been previously farmed.
>>
>> I'm willing to believe it if citations are provided, it's just new
>> information to me.
>
> Here you go
> http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/what-is-a-wild-caught-salmon/
>

I had no idea. My friend is always insisting on buying the wild caught
salmon/fish because she won't touch farm raised, this will come as a shock
to her.

Cheri

[Sqwertz]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 21:54:18 -0400, Susan wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes
>

> On 10/24/2012 6:10 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
>
>> Please blow me. I'm not your bitch - look it up for yourself. It's
>> very easy to find hundreds of cites if you really want to know.
>
> ROFLMAO. Post them.
>>
>> OTOH, if you'd like to pay the $50/hour research fee with a $50
>> minimum, I will happy to forward that information to you.
>
> When you make the assertion, the onus is on you. You effed up, lied and
> got caught.

Go fuck yourself. I didn't lie. I'm just not going to fall for this
"cite" shit you're always pulling. Last time I provided a cite for
you in the Arsenic in Rice thread, also against my better judgment,
you slithered away with a peep like the slimy snake you are.

Of course you don't actually think I'm lying otherwise it wouldn't
have cost you anything to call my "bluff".

> You make shit up and have delusions of adequacy.

You can cry and whine all you want but I'm not going to cite it for
you unless there's something in it for me. I don't have to prove
myself as we've discussed this topic here in RFC several times. So
you're only making a fool of yourself, not I.

-sw

[sf]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:35:11 +0000 (UTC), gregz <ze...@comcast.net>
wrote:

> Wild interior fish. Watch limits. There is severe limit on consumption on
> great lakes. Pcb's

I don't like fresh water fish. They're too bland or too bony for me.
Trout's okay tasting, but I can't deal with those bones.

[sf]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 18:06:13 -0700, "Cheri" <che...@newsguy.com>
wrote:

> I had no idea. My friend is always insisting on buying the wild caught
> salmon/fish because she won't touch farm raised, this will come as a shock
> to her.

I didn't understand what it really meant for a long time, but like I
said in another post - I'm okay with them running wild for a while to
purge and grow before they are caught.

[dsi1]

On 10/23/2012 8:18 AM, sf wrote:
>
> Have you tried it? Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
> family... I like catfish.
>

Somebody gave my daughter a fish wrapped in paper in the parking lot.
When I took a look, to my horror, it was a tilapia. A really big one. I
considered dumping the fish but that just didn't seem right. The youtube
videos on cleaning and fileting these things looked simple enough so I
went for it.

I fried it the old local style - floured, dipped in an egg wash, and
fried in some oil. I handed it to my wife without telling her what it
was. I was expecting her to go bletch but she didn't. I tasted it and it
tasted fine. I don't know where the heck the fish came from other than
from the parking lot but the question is why does the the tilapia you
get at restaurants taste so rank?

[sf]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:00:36 -1000, dsi1
<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

> I don't know where the heck the fish came from other than
> from the parking lot but the question is why does the the tilapia you
> get at restaurants taste so rank?

Maybe the local tilapia from your rivers and streams don't taste as
bad as you thought!

[Steve Freides]

Sqwertz wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:54:05 -0700, sf wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:56:35 -0400, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I've done some cursory searching, including World Wildlife
>>> Foundation (which sites the opposite, trying to breed wild caught
>>> fish in fish farms and failing) and Seafood Watch as well as a more
>>> general google search. I found citations referring to strict
>>> labeling to distinguish wild from farmed fish, but not a single
>>> citation supporting the idea that most wild caught fish have been
>>> previously farmed.
>>>
>>> I'm willing to believe it if citations are provided, it's just new
>>> information to me.
>>
>> Here you go
>> http://alaskasalmonranching.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/what-is-a-wild-caught-salmon/
>

> I half-expected it would be sf that would provide a cite. Oh, the
> irony!
>
> Not very in-depth, but a cite all the same. Now that the "cat is out
> of the bag", here's a little more info for those who are genuinely
> interested (that excludes Susan):
>
> http://blogfishx.blogspot.com/2007/05/fish-farms-produce-so-called-wild.html
>
> That's just the first decent cite I cam across. Plenty more where
> that came from.
>
> -sw

So I guess we can't tell any longer. What a shame, it seems to me, that
they are able to take advantage of the fact that the fish return to
spawn.

-S-

[dsi1]

On 10/25/2012 3:43 AM, sf wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:00:36 -1000, dsi1
> <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I don't know where the heck the fish came from other than
>> from the parking lot but the question is why does the the tilapia you
>> get at restaurants taste so rank?
>
> Maybe the local tilapia from your rivers and streams don't taste as
> bad as you thought!
>

I'd sure like to know what waters it came from. I was surprised that the
fish had no smell - possibly salt water? The texture was different from
the tilapia I've tried, firm like mahimahi. I hit the salt and pepper
right on. It had the right amount of black pepper taste with no funky
fishy notes. I'll probably never have another tilapia like that again.

[Janet Bostwick]

that is the tilapia that I am accustomed to having. There should have
been a label at the fish counter or on the package. Go back and ask.
Janet US

[dsi1]

On 10/25/2012 8:29 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> that is the tilapia that I am accustomed to having. There should have
> been a label at the fish counter or on the package. Go back and ask.
> Janet US
>

This was a whole tilapia. A big one about 18" long - maybe longer. I
don't believe that I've ever seen one that big before. That would really
be creepy to see something like that swimming around in our waters.

My daughter said some guy gave it to her in the parking lot outside our
condo. All I saw was a plastic bag with something wrapped in newspaper.
It could have been any kind of fish. I was hoping for mahimahi or ahi -
not tilapia! Getting the filets is simple - just cut off the sides and
skin it.

I will interrogate my daughter further but she's a tough nut to crack
sometimes. No, better make that most times. :-)

[dsi1]

On 10/25/2012 10:51 AM, Susan wrote:
> In looking around I've found highly divergent statements about what's
> wild and what is hatched and how much is and how they're labeled and no
> definitive numbers. I'm glad the salmon I buy most often is least
> likely to be farmed at any time.

Washington state has quite a few hatcheries. My assumption is that they
did mostly salmon. We would pass a couple on our way to my
brother-in-law's place when we lived there in the 80s. I thought it was
kind of a whacky idea but they knew what they were doing. As far as the
locals are concerned, all the salmon they caught was wild salmon.

My brother-in-law would tell me that buying salmon at the supermarket
was for suckers but I can't see how having to get up early and being
rained on and chilled to your bones on a river bank or on a boat can
ever be considered a wiser option than staying on dry land and fishing a
cleaned filet out of a refrigerator case. OTOH, they did seem to have an
inordinate, cult-like, interest in slugs so who knows what they were
thinking. :-)


>
> If the hatchery conditions are good (dubious, though that is), and
> there's ample wild growth time, I'm good with that. We need good
> fisheries management and sources of protein for too many people on this
> planet.
>
> Susan
>

[Gary]

dsi1 wrote:
>
> Somebody gave my daughter a fish wrapped in paper in the parking lot.
> When I took a look, to my horror, it was a tilapia. A really big one. I
> considered dumping the fish but that just didn't seem right.

LOL! What's wrong with you? I tried tilapia once and I liked it well
enough. Maybe just the way it's cooked that makes a difference?

For me... fillets with a slight smear of mayo, finely chopped onions on top
and sprinkled with lemon juice. Broil until the onion pieces just start to
blacken. It worked well for me.

G.

[Doug Freyburger]

dsi1 wrote:
> Susan wrote:
>
>> In looking around I've found highly divergent statements about what's
>> wild and what is hatched and how much is and how they're labeled and no
>> definitive numbers. I'm glad the salmon I buy most often is least
>> likely to be farmed at any time.
>
> Washington state has quite a few hatcheries. My assumption is that they
> did mostly salmon. We would pass a couple on our way to my
> brother-in-law's place when we lived there in the 80s. I thought it was
> kind of a whacky idea but they knew what they were doing. As far as the
> locals are concerned, all the salmon they caught was wild salmon.

I've been to fish hatcheries in multiple states. The babbling water
noise is pleasant and they don't charge admission so it's an easy
addition to any tourist travel that goes near one. Salmon and trout
usually. They dump the fingerlings in all sorts of streams to make the
populations more diverse as they "return" to spawn.

I've read that Atlantic salmon are kept in pens in the salt water. So
far I haven't been out to see such a facility. I've heard sport fishers
mention seeing Atlantic salmon in western streams. That's probably
where they came from.

[dsi1]

On 10/25/2012 12:18 PM, Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> I've been to fish hatcheries in multiple states. The babbling water
> noise is pleasant and they don't charge admission so it's an easy
> addition to any tourist travel that goes near one. Salmon and trout
> usually. They dump the fingerlings in all sorts of streams to make the
> populations more diverse as they "return" to spawn.

I've never been to a hatchery but the next time I'm in Washington state,
I'll make it a point to visit. Just as long as it ain't baby tilapia
they're hatching!

>
> I've read that Atlantic salmon are kept in pens in the salt water. So
> far I haven't been out to see such a facility. I've heard sport fishers
> mention seeing Atlantic salmon in western streams. That's probably
> where they came from.
>

Fish out of water?

[Mark Thorson]

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> That's the part I wasn't quite clear about - are the fish actually
> returning to the fisheries? I had the impression from several sources
> that the hatcheries/fisheries are actually in the ocean, which would
> seem to throw the fish for a loop when it came time to spawn.

No, the hatcheries are far inland, and the fish
don't return there. The hatcheries take the fish
from egg to fingerlings, which are then used to
stock various rivers and lakes. Those fish return
as adults to the rivers and lakes where they were
placed.

> Maybe only the fisheries that are only 100% farmed are in oceans,
> whereas raise and release ponds are in estuaries and upstream.

Yes, that's right. Farmed adults are raised in pens
that float in the ocean. They are fed food made from
protein sources that can't be used to feed livestock
(such as the carcasses of downer cattle) and from
fish species that have no market as human food.
A huge share of the fish harvested from the ocean
(I've forgotten what percentage) goes toward making
fish food for farmed salmon.

[sf]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:54:03 -1000, dsi1
<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

> I will interrogate my daughter further but she's a tough nut to crack
> sometimes. No, better make that most times. :-)

She's still a teenager, isn't she? It's the nature of the beast.

[sf]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:35:11 -0400, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com>
wrote:

Predictably, Steve shouts to the world once again how immature he is.

[sf]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:52:59 -0400, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

> It's all farmed and except for tilapia farmed in Ecuador or the U.S.
> it's farmed under disgusting conditions and tastes like mud, most folks
> say. Too little of it is farmed in the U.S. so I just avoid it, once
> you get the mucky stuff, no taste for it.

I guess that was the problem with the first tilapia I tried. Just
didn't like it. Subsequent tilapia that I've tasted (can't bring
myself to make a meal of it) was clean tasting, but you know how it is
with first impressions.

[dsi1]

On 10/25/2012 2:45 PM, sf wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:54:03 -1000, dsi1
> <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I will interrogate my daughter further but she's a tough nut to crack
>> sometimes. No, better make that most times. :-)
>
> She's still a teenager, isn't she? It's the nature of the beast.
>

She's kind of a smart cookie. We drove home yesterday and she sees a
neighbor kid, about 3 years old, talking to a woman and a man as we were
coming into the parking lot. She parks the car and then runs down the
street which was kind of a strange thing to do. She later comes in and
said the woman took the kid out of the parking lot to look for his mom.
That's some naughty kid! She grabbed the kid and took him to his mother
who was searching for him on the wrong end of the complex. It must be
that the kid has a habit of running off. She better put a leash on that
kid!

[sf]

How old is he?

[Janet Bostwick]

Until I just checked the 'Net, I hadn't realized how many fish
hatcheries the state of Idaho has. The State raises at least 6
different kinds of fish for redistribution. I have often seen the
fish being moved to different waters in big trucks that are like milk
or fuel tanker trucks. I have seen the eggs being stripped from fish
as they return to spawn. They used to give the stripped fish away to
bystanders, I don't know if they do that any more. My impression here
is that the eggs or fingerlings are put in specific waterways to
rebuild a returning spawning fish population that we have lost or
damaged due to dam construction. The young fish then travel
downstream to the ocean and live there for a couple years before
returning back upstream to their home waterway to spawn and die. I
would expect that those fish that were caught in the ocean would be
called wild caught?
Janet US

[dsi1]

18

[dsi1]

This seems to be the general state of things and there's not any way to
differentiate those hatched in tanks. You probably could feed them some
kind of radioactive food so that you could identify them. Just look for
the glowing fish. :-)

My guess is that the little babies have such a poor survival rate that
protecting them when they're most vulnerable has a big effect on the
fish stock.

[sf]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 18:37:03 -1000, dsi1

<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/25/2012 4:22 PM, sf wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:07:47 -1000, dsi1
> > <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/25/2012 2:45 PM, sf wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:54:03 -1000, dsi1
> >>> <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I will interrogate my daughter further but she's a tough nut to crack
> >>>> sometimes. No, better make that most times. :-)
> >>>
> >>> She's still a teenager, isn't she? It's the nature of the beast.
> >>>
> >>
> >> She's kind of a smart cookie. We drove home yesterday and she sees a
> >> neighbor kid, about 3 years old, talking to a woman and a man as we were
> >> coming into the parking lot. She parks the car and then runs down the
> >> street which was kind of a strange thing to do. She later comes in and
> >> said the woman took the kid out of the parking lot to look for his mom.
> >> That's some naughty kid! She grabbed the kid and took him to his mother
> >> who was searching for him on the wrong end of the complex. It must be
> >> that the kid has a habit of running off. She better put a leash on that
> >> kid!
> >
> > How old is he?
> >
>
> 18

The naughty kid your DD returned to a mother who was looking for him
in the wrong place was 18? Is there anything else you're not telling
us?

[dsi1]

I thought you meant my daughter. Sorry. I stated the kid's age in the
second sentence of my post.

[sf]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:12:18 -1000, dsi1

Sorry, I missed it. 3 is a little old for that, but still expected.

[Janet Bostwick]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 18:48:33 -1000, dsi1

<ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/25/2012 4:32 PM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:39:13 -1000, dsi1
>> <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:

>snip

>>>
>>> Fish out of water?
>> Until I just checked the 'Net, I hadn't realized how many fish
>> hatcheries the state of Idaho has. The State raises at least 6
>> different kinds of fish for redistribution. I have often seen the
>> fish being moved to different waters in big trucks that are like milk
>> or fuel tanker trucks. I have seen the eggs being stripped from fish
>> as they return to spawn. They used to give the stripped fish away to
>> bystanders, I don't know if they do that any more. My impression here
>> is that the eggs or fingerlings are put in specific waterways to
>> rebuild a returning spawning fish population that we have lost or
>> damaged due to dam construction. The young fish then travel
>> downstream to the ocean and live there for a couple years before
>> returning back upstream to their home waterway to spawn and die. I
>> would expect that those fish that were caught in the ocean would be
>> called wild caught?
>> Janet US
>>
>
>This seems to be the general state of things and there's not any way to
>differentiate those hatched in tanks. You probably could feed them some
>kind of radioactive food so that you could identify them. Just look for
>the glowing fish. :-)
>
>My guess is that the little babies have such a poor survival rate that
>protecting them when they're most vulnerable has a big effect on the
>fish stock.

I know they count the returning fish. We have a lake that for several
years had no returning fish. then one, then a couple. It still does
not have satisfactory returns.
Janet US

[dsi1]

On 10/26/2012 4:40 AM, Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> I know they count the returning fish. We have a lake that for several
> years had no returning fish. then one, then a couple. It still does
> not have satisfactory returns.
> Janet US
>

Interesting stuff. Possibly, the route to the lake is geographically
unattractive to the fish that would like to come back and they choose
some other area to spawn. It could be a problem with the
point-of-release rather than an indicator of the number of fish that
grew to maturity. OTOH, what the heck do I know about fish? :-)

[Gary]

Susan wrote:

>
> Gary wrote:
>
> > LOL! What's wrong with you? I tried tilapia once and I liked it well
> > enough. Maybe just the way it's cooked that makes a difference?
>

> It's all farmed and except for tilapia farmed in Ecuador or the U.S.
> it's farmed under disgusting conditions and tastes like mud, most folks
> say. Too little of it is farmed in the U.S. so I just avoid it, once
> you get the mucky stuff, no taste for it.
>
> >

> > For me... fillets with a slight smear of mayo, finely chopped onions on top
> > and sprinkled with lemon juice. Broil until the onion pieces just start to
> > blacken. It worked well for me.
>

> You need all that to cover up the sewage they're raised on in some places.

LOL! Good one, Susan. That said, my traditional fish recipe (above) still
leaves plenty of the fish flavor. I use that on most fish.

All the anti-Tilapia posts though....I must have gotten lucky with a good
one that one time I tried it. After all the other comments, I might not
try it again/

G.

[dsi1]

On 10/26/2012 7:52 AM, Gary wrote:
> LOL! Good one, Susan. That said, my traditional fish recipe (above) still
> leaves plenty of the fish flavor. I use that on most fish.
>
> All the anti-Tilapia posts though....I must have gotten lucky with a good
> one that one time I tried it. After all the other comments, I might not
> try it again/
>
> G.

I've never said that people shouldn't eat tilapia - just that I have a
grudge against the fish and this time, it's personal.

Tilapia is a wonderful fish because it's eminently sustainable. We need
tilapia! Just ask Jesus. He fed 5000 people with just 5 loaves of bread
and two tilapia. My assumption is that they were a male and a female and
that he had an aqua-farm and that it took a while to get it going. I
suspect that the loaves of bread must have weighed about 100 pounds each.

My message has always been that people should eat as much tilapia as
they can stuff down their fish hatches. I'm hoping that it's the fish
that which for people wish.

[ko...@letscook.com]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2012 21:57:24 -0400, Susan <su...@nothanks.org> wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>On 10/24/2012 7:22 PM, Steve Freides wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't think that's what was meant. I took it the other way, that fish
>> are caught when young and "finished" in captivity. The concept would be
>> similar to something done with cattle which are sometimes range fed and
>> then brought into feed lots for a while (a few months? I don't really
>> know) before slaughter.
>
>Not quite the same concept, since one is wild and both are managed
>feeding and breeding. And most beef in stores is on a feedlot lifelong.
>Some premium meats are called "grass fed" but that tells you they're not
>"100% grass fed and finished," the most desirable in terms of animal and
>human health.
>
>And it's not all or most pastured
>
>Susan

I'm very fortunate I have access to grass fed and grass finished beef.
http://www.homegrownmeats.com/
They also carry the Kurobuta pork.

koko
--
Food is our common ground, a universal experience
James Beard

www.kokoscornerblog.com

Natural Watkins Spices
www.apinchofspices.com

[sf]

On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:37:45 -0700, ko...@letscook.com wrote:

> They also carry the Kurobuta pork.

AKA: Berkshire here. OMG it's sooo good! I bought it once at fancy
schmanchy butcher here in town, but the next time I went there to get
some (quite a long time later because it's not a place us 99¢ers
frequent very often), the "butcher" (who was probably a butcher in
training) had never heard of it before. He named the farms their pork
came from and "Berkshire" didn't mean diddly to him. Such is life.

[sf]

FYI: That's a way Japanese people like their fish. The first time I
heard of it was 20 or so years ago from the mother of one of my
children's friends who was a stewardess on international flights to
Japan. You just put the mayo on top of the filet, you don't coat it
and then broil. It keeps the fish from drying out and puffs up very
nicely (so it's pretty too). I tried it and it tastes really good. I
can totally understand the lemon and green onion additions, because I
like both and think they will make it even better

Don't try it if it doesn't appeal to you; but it tastes really good -
so it's your loss.

BTW: I haven't tried it with tilapia, which shouldn't have a distinct
flavor (if it's raised "right"); I did it with salmon.

[Mark Thorson]

Sqwertz wrote:

>
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:50:20 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> > Sqwertz wrote:
> >>
> >> That's the part I wasn't quite clear about - are the fish actually
> >> returning to the fisheries? I had the impression from several sources
> >> that the hatcheries/fisheries are actually in the ocean, which would
> >> seem to throw the fish for a loop when it came time to spawn.
> >
> > No, the hatcheries are far inland, and the fish
> > don't return there. The hatcheries take the fish
> > from egg to fingerlings, which are then used to
> > stock various rivers and lakes. Those fish return
> > as adults to the rivers and lakes where they were
> > placed.
>

> Uh, that's not what the articles in question indicate.
>
> You're excused.

Here's a map of the hatcheries in California.
The vast majority are far inland, near the
rivers and lakes where the fingerlings are
placed.

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/fish/hatcheries/HatList.asp

[Jean B.]

Sqwertz wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:18:41 -0700, sf wrote:
>
>> Have you tried it? Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
>> family... I like catfish.
>
> Swai, since it's a sucking bottom feeder like catfish, is what they
> use to suck up all the shit from the bottom of the tilapia ponds
> between harvests. They rotate tilapia and swai (pangasius). The
> pangasius are used to clean the bottoms of the ponds, then they
> refresh the water with a new batch of chemicals for another round of
> tilapia. Then the cycle repeats.
>
> -sw

Yum yum. I think I will pass on that.

[Jean B.]

Mark Thorson wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
>>

>> On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:25:36 -0500, George Leppla wrote:

>>
>>> On 10/23/2012 1:18 PM, sf wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Have you tried it? Consumer Reports says it's in the catfish
>>>> family... I like catfish.
>>>

>>> I was told that Swai IS catfish... from out of the country. Seems you
>>> can't import catfish so they gave it a fancy name. Also sold as "Basa".
>>> Have had both and I couldn't tell the difference from catfish.
>>
>> They are quite different fish. They come from different families and
>> the pangasius is actually a type of shark. The US catfish farmers put
>
> They call it a shark, but it's really a type of catfish.
>
>> up a stink because of them importing pangasius as catfish and labeling
>> it as such (since they do taste the same). A lot of restaurants are
>
> It is a catfish, but not the same species grown here.
> The U.S. industry got the politicians to make it
> illegal to label as catfish.
>
>> still passing off pangasius as catfish. Pangasius costs 1/2 to 1/3rd
>> the price of the American catfish - so you can imagine why they're
>> pissed.
>
> I'd be less concerned about the species name and
> more concerned about the filthy, polluted waters
> of the Mekong delta where they are grown.
>
> Even though the labelling restriction is wrong
> from a scientific point of view, from a consumer
> point of view it makes sense. There should be
> a distinction between catfish grown in filthy
> U.S. ponds and filthy, polluted Mekong river ponds.

I know I am not inclined to buy fish from Thailand now and
wondered about fish from Vietnam. I guess it's either no tuna
(etc.) or very expensive tuna now. I opted for the latter, only
as a rare treat, a while ago, but I was eying cans again tonight,
thinking the small cans would be useful now. I left with NO tuna.

[Jean B.]

Sqwertz wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:26:52 -0800, Mark Thorson wrote:
>
>> I'd be less concerned about the species name and
>> more concerned about the filthy, polluted waters
>> of the Mekong delta where they are grown.
>>
>> Even though the labelling restriction is wrong
>> from a scientific point of view, from a consumer
>> point of view it makes sense. There should be
>> a distinction between catfish grown in filthy
>> U.S. ponds and filthy, polluted Mekong river ponds.
>

> Most of the U.S. catfish is grown in Mississippi river water. And
> that ain't exactly distilled water, either. It's the U.S's most
> polluted river, especially the southernmost portion where are the
> catfish are raised.
>
> -sw

I hate farm-raised catfish... and farm-raised fish in general.

[Jean B.]

> Am I the only one who tries to eat only wild-caught fish? We now buy
> all our fish at Whole Foods because they display this sort of
> information. The thing that started us down this road was reading about
> a study of the reaction of the human body to both kinds of salmon -
> apparently wild-caught salmon has anti-inflammatory properties.
> Farm-raised salmon doesn't simply not have it, it's actually
> inflammatory in the human body - at least according to one book I read.
>
> That was enough for me. We eat fish once every week or two and usually
> buy Dover Sole (even though we know it's not actually Dover Sole) from
> WF. (We _like_ thin fish fillets, breaded and fried.)
>
> -S-
>
>
I certainly pay attention to that and don't think I ever
deliberately select farm-raised fish. I know that there is also a
difference between farm-raised tilapia and wild tilapia and that
the latter is good for you while the former is not. There's also
the problem with escaped farm-raised fish (thinking of salmon)....

The downside is feeding all the mouths on this overpopulated
planet--and the plight of so many species of fish. From that POV,
farm-raised fish make sense, but I'd rather eat less fish.