Making roux with olive oil? Mais Non!
Chemiker
roux would not brown properly and the resultant dish had a tacky oily
feel/tooth and a floury aftertaste. After much soul searchinng ( and
internet time), I think I have found the culprit.
Found a reference in the GumboPages that warns the reader NOT to make
roux with olive oil, as they invariably come up poorly. Reflection
proved that I had done so, because I couldn't find the peanut oil.
Bought a fresh bottle of peanut oil, and remeasured the AP flour, and
the roux came up beautifully, with exactly the right "nose".
A word to the wise. Avoid EVOO for roux.
Alex
Dan Abel
Chemiker <prussia...@verizon.net> wrote:
I disagree. However, I've never made gumbo, or anything requiring a
brown roux. I can say that I have used olive oil for making roux for
white sauces, and generally like it pretty well (think turkey ala king).
It sure doesn't make sense to use a good olive oil for anything cooked
at a very high heat, since it loses a lot of the flavor you have paid
for.
I'll take your word not to use olive oil for a dark roux.
--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
da...@sonic.net
Chemiker
Johnsonville Mild Italian + 1 Aidell's andouille. Fresh okra. Trinity.
Chocolate (!) roux, 1 rotisserie chicken, diced. Thyme. Smoked
Paprika. Trappey's Red Devil, BP, bay leaf, 2 cloves minced garlic.
Clam juice, seafood stock. Other stuff I forgot, will add shrimp
shortly. Maybe scallops. Parsley. Chiffonade of kale. 2 Tbs
worcestershire.
Alex, checking the beer cooler.
Nunya Bidnits
Same experience, and the EVOO wants to separate from the brown roux and
float on top. Personally I like to use a good quality butter, sometimes
clarified butter. Adds another dimension to the taste. You just have to be
careful with the temperature so it takes a little longer.
cshenk
I'm not a major roux maker, but when I do it, I was taught to use
butter or pork fat or duck fat (rendered). Probably all wrong there
too eh?
--
Nunya Bidnits
Not in the least IMO! Butter, pork fat, duck fat, schmaltz, or whatever fat
is rendered from whatever meat you are using to make a sauce or gravy or
dark roux... what else does anyone need? ;-) But oil? I don't use any oil
unless there isn't any other choice. I'd even go to saved bacon fat before
I'd use oil. And for okra based gumbo I like a combination of butter and
bacon fat for the dark roux, plus any fat rendered when browning the chicken
pieces.
MartyB.
MartyB
Chemiker
<nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>cshenk wrote:
>> Chemiker wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>Not in the least IMO! Butter, pork fat, duck fat, schmaltz, or whatever fat
>is rendered from whatever meat you are using to make a sauce or gravy or
>dark roux... what else does anyone need? ;-) But oil? I don't use any oil
>unless there isn't any other choice. I'd even go to saved bacon fat before
>I'd use oil. And for okra based gumbo I like a combination of butter and
>bacon fat for the dark roux, plus any fat rendered when browning the chicken
>pieces.
Well, it seems I was late to the party. I never used EVOO before, so
never knew the difference. I won't make that mistake again. Yes, the
oil separated and floated on top, and the roux was thin and grainy.
Had the new batch for supper and it was fine.
Alex
Polly Esther
"Chemiker" <> wrote in message>
On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:26:19 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
I use vegetable oil but since the question came up, I checked our cook book
collection to see what other cooks think. The Picayune Creole Cook Book of
1901 had this rather harsh comment:
" Properly made, the taste of lard can never be detected and it is feared
that butter is used by many to cover up, by its taste, the deficiencies of
having made the roux improperly. " Polly
Steve Pope
in a roux and some will not. The ones that are generally
good for frying and sauteeing should work. Know your oils.
Steve
sf
Alex... if you want to try something even harder, make roux with
something that's not wheat flour. I have. It takes literally forever
and to get to a milk chocolate brown. I can't remember what it was at
the moment but if you want to know, I'll come up with it (all you
really need to know is *use* wheat flour).
--
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
sf
<nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
> Same experience, and the EVOO wants to separate from the brown roux and
> float on top. Personally I like to use a good quality butter, sometimes
> clarified butter. Adds another dimension to the taste. You just have to be
> careful with the temperature so it takes a little longer.
*Butter*? Oh, no.
sf
> I'm not a major roux maker, but when I do it, I was taught to use
> butter or pork fat or duck fat (rendered). Probably all wrong there
> too eh?
Too up scale.
sf
<nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
> Not in the least IMO! Butter, pork fat, duck fat, schmaltz, or whatever fat
> is rendered from whatever meat you are using to make a sauce or gravy or
> dark roux... what else does anyone need? ;-) But oil? I don't use any oil
> unless there isn't any other choice.
You don't use oil when making roux for gumbo? Odd.
sf
<prussia...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I never used EVOO before, so
> never knew the difference. I won't make that mistake again. Yes, the
> oil separated and floated on top, and the roux was thin and grainy.
> Had the new batch for supper and it was fine.
I wouldn't use it because it would add a flavor I'm not looking for.
ViLco
>> Same experience, and the EVOO wants to separate from the brown roux
>> and float on top. Personally I like to use a good quality butter,
>> sometimes clarified butter. Adds another dimension to the taste. You
>> just have to be careful with the temperature so it takes a little
>> longer.
> *Butter*? Oh, no.
Classic roux is just butter and flour
--
ViLco
Let the liquor do the thinking
Giusi
"Chemiker" <prussia...@verizon.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
Wrong, wrong, wrong. have always used olive oil and never made a bad roux.
Giusi
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> ha scritto nel
messaggio
I think it sounds crazy to try to make a mahogany roux from butter!
Dan Abel
"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Chemiker" <prussia...@verizon.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> > Made a batch of Cajun (brown) gumbo yesterday and it was terrible. THe
> > roux would not brown properly
> > A word to the wise. Avoid EVOO for roux.
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong. have always used olive oil and never made a bad roux.
White, brown or both?
Nunya Bidnits
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:27:07 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
> <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Same experience, and the EVOO wants to separate from the brown roux
>> and float on top. Personally I like to use a good quality butter,
>> sometimes clarified butter. Adds another dimension to the taste. You
>> just have to be careful with the temperature so it takes a little
>> longer.
>
> *Butter*? Oh, no.
Why not? Note my comment about temperature for dark roux.
Nunya Bidnits
It takes a while because you don't want to burn the butter, and I use a high
quality butter like Plugra, or I use clarified butter. Also if I want it
really dark chocolate brown, I probably won't use any butter. In practice,
since there is always some sort of meat involved which produces rendered
fat, and it gets used as well, as I noted in the previous post. But
sometimes there isn't enough animal fat to do the job in which case I'll go
for butter or bacon fat. For lighter colored rouxs and bechamel, I prefer
butter .
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
Plain olive oil, or EVOO? I don't want the flavor of EVOO in most rouxs.
I've made a bad roux though. If you've never once in your life become
distracted and let a roux go too long without stirring and had to start
over, you're a rare bird. ;-)
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:34:46 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm not a major roux maker, but when I do it, I was taught to use
>> butter or pork fat or duck fat (rendered). Probably all wrong there
>> too eh?
>
> Too up scale.
Pork fat is upscale? Duck fat, yeah, but not the other two.
Makes me wonder how a gumbo would work out with duck. Surely the duck fat
roux would have great flavor. I searched on duck gumbo and came up with some
food for thought:
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/all-american-festivals/duck-gumbo-recipe/index.html
http://www.emerils.com/recipe/1638/duck-gumbo
http://norecipes.com/blog/2009/03/21/shrimp-and-duck-gumbo/
MartyB
sf
Roux for gumbo isn't classic or french.
sf
<nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
Gumbo roux isn't made with butter.
sf
> I think it sounds crazy to try to make a mahogany roux from butter!
>
I think he forgot the discussion was about gumbo.
Nunya Bidnits
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:26:19 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
> <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Not in the least IMO! Butter, pork fat, duck fat, schmaltz, or
>> whatever fat is rendered from whatever meat you are using to make a
>> sauce or gravy or dark roux... what else does anyone need? ;-) But
>> oil? I don't use any oil unless there isn't any other choice.
>
> You don't use oil when making roux for gumbo? Odd.
Nope. I use whatever fats render in browing the chicken and sausage, bacon
grease, butter, and/or lard if I have any. I would not use oil or beef fat
for gumbo, red beans and rice, or my sausage with red beans and rice with
chili-ancho sauce. But if it's in the gumbo, its fat is fair game for the
roux. I consider roux to be highly flexible as far as the fat used and if it
comes from meats used in the dish, so much the better.
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:47:54 +0200, "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think it sounds crazy to try to make a mahogany roux from butter!
>>
> I think he forgot the discussion was about gumbo.
I think you are fixated on butter in brown roux as being some sort of
satanic plot. ;-)
Giusi
"Dan Abel" <da...@sonic.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Wrong, wrong, wrong. have always used olive oil and never made a bad
>> roux.
>
> White, brown or both?
Mahogany, as prudhonne required for Cajun dishes.
Giusi
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> ha scritto nel
For lighter colored rouxs and bechamel, I prefer
> butter .
>
> MartyB
Of course, but the subject was roux for gumbo. Which must be almost burnt,
a deep mahogany and made with olive oil, I believe. I should think making
gumbo predates most oils other than olive oil.
Giusi
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> ha scritto nel
> Giusi wrote:
>> Wrong, wrong, wrong. have always used olive oil and never made a
>> bad roux.
>
> Plain olive oil, or EVOO? I don't want the flavor of EVOO in most rouxs.
>
> I've made a bad roux though. If you've never once in your life become
> distracted and let a roux go too long without stirring and had to start
> over, you're a rare bird. ;-)
Extra virgin is the only olive oil I use. By the time it reaches that
almost burnt stage it tastes like regular oo would, I should think. We are
talking ONLY about roux for gumbo, for Cajun cooking. I don't make
besciamella with olive oil of course.
I have always made roux something of a priority. It's the base of what you
are making and worth not answering the phone or getting distracted.
Nunya Bidnits
>
> Extra virgin is the only olive oil I use. By the time it reaches that
> almost burnt stage it tastes like regular oo would, I should think. We are
> talking ONLY about roux for gumbo, for Cajun cooking. I don't
> make besciamella with olive oil of course.
Understood. I guess the question would be why not use cheaper olive oil
which is still allegedly healthier but cheaper, siince you're going to cook
out the taste of the EVOO?
> I have always made roux something of a priority. It's the base of
> what you are making and worth not answering the phone or getting
> distracted.
Amen to that!
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
How about peanut oil?
Maybe my gumbo roux isn't quite as dark as yours but using clarified butter,
bacon fat, and/or rendered fat from the meats has always worked well for me.
I'll try to remember to post a photo of the finished dark roux next time I
make it for comparison.
MartyB
John Kuthe
news:vprl371a23mvfrj8s...@4ax.com...
...
> A word to the wise. Avoid EVOO for roux.
>
Word noted, but I always use butter in my roux. Always works wonderfully!
John Kuthe...
Chemiker
<nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>sf wrote:
>> On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:34:46 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Too up scale.
>
>Pork fat is upscale? Duck fat, yeah, but not the other two.
>
>Makes me wonder how a gumbo would work out with duck. Surely the duck fat
>roux would have great flavor. I searched on duck gumbo and came up with some
>food for thought:
Good idea, that I'll have to try one day. IMHO, just about any
feathered thing that flies, anything that swims, or that walks/crawls
around terra firma, is suitable material for a gumbo. That includes
duck. Maybe not jellyfish.....
Since many gumbos are built around wild game, I'd wager that duck is
an old familiar meat in gumbo.
Alex
Don Martinich
roux for gumbo. The book is "Creole Feast; 15 Master Chefs of New
Orleans Reveal Their Secrets". There were 5 gumbo recipes and they each
called for one of the following fats to make the roux-
peanut oil
butter
margarine
'oil'
'vegetable oil or olive oil'
D.M.
sf
It's not? <innocent look>
Giusi
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> ha scritto nel
messaggio
>>
>> Extra virgin is the only olive oil I use.
>
> which is still allegedly healthier but cheaper, siince you're going to
> cook > out the taste of the EVOO?
If I paid for it maybe I would. I live among thousands upon thousands of
olive trees and the stuff flows everywhere. We use it for everything from
salt scrubs in the shower to removing sticky labels to cooking and dressing
for flavor with raw.
When the new oil comes in, last year's becomes for cooking and frying or
making furniture polish and hair treatments.
It all starts as extra virgin, because no one I know has the wherewithal to
go farther than that. We pick them, cart them to the press, wait until our
oil comes out. Put it into metal containers and that's all we do. I know
we are very spoiled, but OTH, when someone says you can't do something with
extra virgin, I know for sure if it's true or not.
Giusi
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> ha scritto nel
>
> How about peanut oil?
Is that not Booker T Washington? 2oth century?
sf
> We pick them, cart them to the press, wait until our
> oil comes out. Put it into metal containers and that's all we do.
I bought some olive oil yesterday that supposedly is very low acid.
They say they don't let their olives hit the ground, they are pressed
less than 24 hours after picking and they are only pressed once.
http://www.winterhillfarms.com/Fact.html
Giusi
"sf" <s...@geemail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> We pick them, cart them to the press, wait until our
>> oil comes out. Put it into metal containers and that's all we do.
>
> I bought some olive oil yesterday that supposedly is very low acid.
> They say they don't let their olives hit the ground, they are pressed
> less than 24 hours after picking and they are only pressed once.
> http://www.winterhillfarms.com/Fact.html
Then it ought to be the best oil you ever tasted.
sf
So they say!
Dan Abel
"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
And at US$14.50 per 250ml, it better be good!
http://winterhillfarms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=W&Prod
uct_Code=2IE
blake murphy
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:29:12 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
> <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> sf wrote:
>>> On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:47:54 +0200, "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it sounds crazy to try to make a mahogany roux from butter!
>>>>
>>> I think he forgot the discussion was about gumbo.
>>
>> I think you are fixated on butter in brown roux as being some sort of
>> satanic plot. ;-)
>>
> It's not? <innocent look>
*everything* is a fucking satanic plot. just look around!
your pal,
blake
sf
At the very least, butter in gumbo will taste evil. :)
Nunya Bidnits
> On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:29:12 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
> <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> sf wrote:
>>> On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:47:54 +0200, "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it sounds crazy to try to make a mahogany roux from butter!
>>>>
>>> I think he forgot the discussion was about gumbo.
>>
>> I think you are fixated on butter in brown roux as being some sort of
>> satanic plot. ;-)
>>
> It's not? <innocent look>
OK, OK, I admit to harboring the devil butter.
Nunya Bidnits
I have been vindicated! In honor of the occasion I think I'll go make some
roux with lard. ;-)
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
Probably true, although I'll be avoiding the possum racoon gumbo.
Nunya Bidnits
You live in the midst of the olive oil mother lode!
I suspect US prices for decent EVOO would horrify you.
MartyB
Nunya Bidnits
> In article <9a5akf...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "sf" <s...@geemail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>> "Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We pick them, cart them to the press, wait until our
>>>> oil comes out. Put it into metal containers and that's all we do.
>>>
>>> I bought some olive oil yesterday that supposedly is very low acid.
>>> They say they don't let their olives hit the ground, they are
>>> pressed less than 24 hours after picking and they are only pressed
>>> once. http://www.winterhillfarms.com/Fact.html
>>
>> Then it ought to be the best oil you ever tasted.
>
> And at US$14.50 per 250ml, it better be good!
<thud>
Nunya Bidnits
Yes, and every decent Asian restaurant...
;-)
J/K, I misread "predates" while having a speed reading fit.
OTOH I don't know when gumbo was first made but are you saying there was no
other oil around at that time? And were there native olive trees in Central
Louisiana back then? If not, I wonder where the Acadians who settled that
area would have found olive oil. Methinks they probably used butter or lard.
I suppose it would be fun to research it but right now it's time to go trim
and season some ribs and brisket for the smoker and drink beer.
Cheers!
MartyB
Storrmmee
"Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
news:j1k8o3$o7i$1...@dont-email.me...
sf
laugh!
Steve Pope
Sometime in the next decade I will have to try California olive
oils again before ignoring them for another decade.
Steve
Steve Pope
>And at US$14.50 per 250ml, it better be good!
>
>http://winterhillfarms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=W&Prod
>uct_Code=2IE
I usually pay slightly more than that, maybe closer to $40/500 ml,
for a good Sicilian olive oil.
I had an amusing experience last time I made such a purchase. I went
into The Pasta Shop, a yupscale retailer in Berkeley, and it happened
there were about ten California olive oil producers sampling their
product in the store, which was packed with people tasting olive
oils. I picked up a Sicilian olive oil ("Titone") off the shelf, and
went to the checkstand and the cashier said to me, "Oh!! You're buying
the best olive oil in the store!!".
S.
Steve Pope
>I suspect US prices for decent EVOO would horrify you.
For the very very best ones yes, but if one doesn't want to pay
those prices, the best Trader Joe's olive oil is really very good
at $8/liter. (It is a Sicilia/Apulia blend.)
Basically you can pay about 10 times as much for something noticeably
better. You can also pay several times as much for something
noticeably worse, if you're not careful.
Steve
Giusi
"Steve Pope" <spo...@speedymail.org> ha scritto nel messaggio
> Nunya Bidnits <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>I suspect US prices for decent EVOO would horrify you.
>
> For the very very best ones yes, but if one doesn't want to pay
> those prices, the best Trader Joe's olive oil is really very good
> at $8/liter. (It is a Sicilia/Apulia blend.)
>
> Basically you can pay about 10 times as much for something noticeably>
> better.
The base price here for good extra virgin is said to be about euro 8 per
liter. That's a lot more than TJ is charging.
When I buy, I buy for taste. I know, for example, that the Brindisi
cooperative in Puglia puts out a gorgeous oil and I don't mind paying euro
40 for 5 liters of it. But over my time here I've found ways to get it
free. Like cooking for the pickers at someone's home, or picking if they
want it.
Ross@home
>On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:26:42 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
><nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
>> sf wrote:
>> > On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:27:07 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
>> > <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Same experience, and the EVOO wants to separate from the brown roux
>> >> and float on top. Personally I like to use a good quality butter,
>> >> sometimes clarified butter. Adds another dimension to the taste. You
>> >> just have to be careful with the temperature so it takes a little
>> >> longer.
>> >
>> > *Butter*? Oh, no.
>>
>> Why not? Note my comment about temperature for dark roux.
>>
>Gumbo roux isn't made with butter.
It seems not everyone agrees.
I've never made a real gumbo but, all this discussion on the proper
fat for a roux made me do some research on what it takes.
The following are four excerpts from recipes I found in my search,
which I've copied and pasted here:
1. There is only one rule that remains constant in making gumbo: First
you make a roux. The roux, a flour and oil or butter mixture, which
acts as a thickening agent, is the gumbo's base.
2. There are probably as many distinctive recipes for gumbo as there
are cooks in Louisiana.
First you make a roux......
The fat used in roux may be butter, shortening, lard, oil, or even
bacon drippings.
3. Sunday Pot of Gumbo
3/4 cup flour
3/4 cup butter (or oil, but the oil will change the flavor)
4. Gumbo!!!
Ingredients:
� cup (120 ml) oil, butter, lard or bacon drippings
1 cup (226.8 g) white, all-purpose flour
Ross.
sf
If you want to make gumbo roux with butter, knock yourself out - but
don't come crying here, asking what the problem could possibly be when
you don't like it.
sf
Pope) wrote:
> Sometime in the next decade I will have to try California olive
> oils again before ignoring them for another decade.
>
I'd like to see CAEVOO prices descend from the stratosphere too.
Tasting rooms are becoming very popular, so you can taste and not buy.
The one in Placerville will fill your bottle or sell you a few ounces
in your own bottle for pennies over $1 an ounce. Not sure if that's
how other OO tasting rooms operate or not. Stop by Rainbow grocery
the next time you're in town and fill up. They have bottles they'll
sell you for a couple of bucks or you can bring your own.
sf
Have you ever gone to Costco and bought a big bottle of their Kirkland
brand Tuscan EVOO? It's really good stuff, but I use it mainly for
cooking. I think it's a Jan-June thing and their Kirkland brand EVOO
is Sicilian the rest of the year.
Nunya Bidnits
All fear the demon butter.
Chemiker
>On Fri, 05 Aug 2011 10:20:21 -0700, sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:26:42 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
>><nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>The following are four excerpts from recipes I found in my search,
>which I've copied and pasted here:
>
>1. There is only one rule that remains constant in making gumbo: First
>you make a roux. The roux, a flour and oil or butter mixture, which
>acts as a thickening agent, is the gumbo's base.
N.B. In roux that are taken to the limit, i.e. chocolate roux, be
aware that as the roux darkens it loses its thickening power. Those
who ae successful in getting to the mahogany/chocolate stage may be
surprised to find the dish thin. This is no excuse for adding file to
the pot, but *does* argue for okra slices to provide that lost
thickening.
>2. There are probably as many distinctive recipes for gumbo as there
>are cooks in Louisiana.
>First you make a roux......
>The fat used in roux may be butter, shortening, lard, oil, or even
>bacon drippings.
>
>3. Sunday Pot of Gumbo
>3/4 cup flour
>3/4 cup butter (or oil, but the oil will change the flavor)
>
>4. Gumbo!!!
>Ingredients:
>½ cup (120 ml) oil, butter, lard or bacon drippings
>1 cup (226.8 g) white, all-purpose flour
Further study will indicate there is a loose ratio of meat/seafood to
other ingredients. That said, there is always gumbo z'herbe, rich in
good green stuff. I like to add chiffonade of kale even to my seafood
gumbo. Also: Although I'm sure it has been done, gumbo is not usually
associated with salt water seafood. In LA, they even distinguish
between shrimp from the lake and shrimp from the river. Part of this
confusion comes from, I think, the distinction between Creole and
Cajun cooking. Polly Esther had it right, checking the Picayune Creole
CookBook. The Creole version is a little closer to bouillabaise.
Enjoy your research and do try the different versions.
Alex
Chemiker
<nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>OTOH I don't know when gumbo was first made but are you saying there was no
>other oil around at that time? And were there native olive trees in Central
>Louisiana back then? If not, I wonder where the Acadians who settled that
>area would have found olive oil. Methinks they probably used butter or lard.
>
>I suppose it would be fun to research it but right now it's time to go trim
>and season some ribs and brisket for the smoker and drink beer.
As a start, consider that New Orleans was a port before the Acadian
diaspora. Olive oil was certainly known in New Orleans, as many of
their great cooking families came from southern france, around
Marseilles. OTOH, the Acadians, arriving there later, found themselves
less than welcome and were shuttled off into the hinterlands, known
today as Acadiana. There, olive oil would have been somewhat rare and
expensive. Makes sense that the Cajuns would have used "frontier" fats
for cooking, of which olive oil is *not* one (in Louisiana). Lard is
perfectly logical, both from a logistical point of view and from a
culinary standpoint.
Alex, having Gumbo tonight.
Chemiker
Go for it, Marty. Enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Alex
Nunya Bidnits
I thought long and hard about it, and then made tacos.
.-)
MartyB
blake murphy
eh, he's not as tough as demon rum.
your pal,
blake
Nunya Bidnits
>>
>> All fear the demon butter.
>
> eh, he's not as tough as demon rum.
>
But when the demon buttered rum comes 'round, run for your lives!
cshenk
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:26:19 -0500, "Nunya Bidnits"
> <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
>
> > Not in the least IMO! Butter, pork fat, duck fat, schmaltz, or
> > whatever fat is rendered from whatever meat you are using to make a
> > sauce or gravy or dark roux... what else does anyone need? ;-) But
> > oil? I don't use any oil unless there isn't any other choice.
>
> You don't use oil when making roux for gumbo? Odd.
I never heard of it but then, I never checked past what I saw others
using for that one. Even my Mom, a self avowed 'non-cook' used butter.
LOL, I recently emailed her how to steam green beans and her reply was
'you know i'm not a cook! I dumped them in a bowl in the microwave'.
LOL! Lovely woman, at 81 she spends her time fixing 'old peoples
houses'. My brother took over making the Turkey when he was 8 which
might give you a cluebat (grin).
Rolling eyes, we prayed for 1960's version of cheap TV dinners and
school lunches... Grin, but it was hot, on time, and if not exciting,
nutritous and balanced.
Mom used a roux for her beef stew (oddly, one item she truely excelled
at and i have yet to beat) and as a base for the sauce of her baked
macaroni and cheese (quite good, I've not exceeded it but can also make
a heck of a lot of variations we like better than her simple basic one).
--
cshenk
> On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:34:46 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm not a major roux maker, but when I do it, I was taught to use
> > butter or pork fat or duck fat (rendered). Probably all wrong there
> > too eh?
>
> Too up scale.
Not really. We eat pork and duck pretty often so those are 'free fats'
here. I have a jar of rendered duck fat right now, about 1.5 cups. I
have about 2 cups of pork fats (1 each bacon and home made sausage).
--
cshenk
> sf wrote:
> >On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:34:46 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not a major roux maker, but when I do it, I was taught to use
> > > butter or pork fat or duck fat (rendered). Probably all wrong
> > > there too eh?
> >
> > Too up scale.
>
> Pork fat is upscale? Duck fat, yeah, but not the other two.
>
> Makes me wonder how a gumbo would work out with duck. Surely the duck
> fat roux would have great flavor. I searched on duck gumbo and came
> up with some food for thought:
>
> http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/all-american-festivals/duck-gumbo-r
> ecipe/index.html
>
> http://www.emerils.com/recipe/1638/duck-gumbo
>
> http://norecipes.com/blog/2009/03/21/shrimp-and-duck-gumbo/
It works really well. Our local asian grocery has cleaned ducks (and
'umm, still stuffed') for 9.99 cleaned, about 6$ same size uncleaned.
Since cleaning a duck doesnt bother us we normally get 1 a month of
whichever they have at the time. 1 duck domestically raised duck will
yield about 1 cup rendered fat or a bit more depending on size. I
therefore, do not regard it as 'exotic'. To me, duck fat is a side
free product of a meal to be used the rest of the month in various
ways. Just like the duck stock is from the bones.
--
Steve Pope
>On Sun, 7 Aug 2011 03:54:45 +0000 (UTC), spo...@speedymail.org (Steve
>> Sometime in the next decade I will have to try California olive
>> oils again before ignoring them for another decade.
>>
>I'd like to see CAEVOO prices descend from the stratosphere too.
>Tasting rooms are becoming very popular, so you can taste and not buy.
>The one in Placerville will fill your bottle or sell you a few ounces
>in your own bottle for pennies over $1 an ounce. Not sure if that's
>how other OO tasting rooms operate or not. Stop by Rainbow grocery
>the next time you're in town and fill up. They have bottles they'll
>sell you for a couple of bucks or you can bring your own.
I figure if an OO producer is running tasting rooms, or setting
up tasting tables at specialty food stores, then I don't bother with
their product, they are just trying to snow people.
Stev
Steve Pope
I have not been a Costco member for several years but my memory
of their Kirkland Italian EVOO is positive. No better than TJ's, maybe
a slightly better price point.
Steve
sf
> Mom used a roux for her beef stew (oddly, one item she truely excelled
> at and i have yet to beat)
My mother made good gravy too... they were "of the age", I guess.
sf
Duck fat isn't upscale? Think again. I've never seen it (ever) and
no one I know personally has ever mentioned seeing it either.
I know my out of town kids can buy rendered pork fat easily where they
live - which is only 45 minutes away from me, but I've never seen it
and I have lots of Mexican markets to shop at here too. I realized
when I saw the container that I was looking for the wrong thing, it's
oblong and looks like a container of light butter instead of the round
(sour cream like) container I was expected to find.
sf
Really? I don't think so at all. Native OO is still a novelty item
for California. I think they are trying to spread the word. I'm
seriously pissed that they charge so much for their product, but
really... they have to if they want to stay in business.
sf
The price point is great. As soon as I clued into Costco EVOO, I
stopped buying it at TJ (unless I'm completely out and need something
ASAP). Both are good, but Costco is better priced. I saw Spanish
EVOO at TJ today. Small bottle (didn't look at the oz, maybe 8-10) of
Spanish OO for $3.99.
Julie Bove
"sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:veg147ledmkpcch9e...@4ax.com...
What? It wasn't a novelty when I lived there. Now I did move from there 9
years ago. Perhaps they stopped selling it then and then started up again.
sf
Julie, you need a brain transplant.
Steve Pope
No, Julie's right. The profusion of California OO producers running
tasting tables at every possible opportunity is just in the past few
years. Prior to that, there was plenty of production, but it was
sold in a more normal fashion without all this hype.
And I have yet to taste a California OO that is as good as the $8/liter
Italian stuff from TJ's. Not to mention the $80/liter real deal. I
cannot say I've tasted them all, but I've tasted enough California OO's
to have a representative sampling. I really do feel that it's just an
okay-to-mediocre product and the producers are trying to compensate for
that by getting in your face with direct marketing.
Steve
Dan Abel
spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
> >> "sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:veg147ledmkpcch9e...@4ax.com...
> >> > Really? I don't think so at all. Native OO is still a novelty item
> >> > for California. I think they are trying to spread the word. I'm
> >> > seriously pissed that they charge so much for their product, but
> >> > really... they have to if they want to stay in business.
> And I have yet to taste a California OO that is as good as the $8/liter
> Italian stuff from TJ's. Not to mention the $80/liter real deal. I
> cannot say I've tasted them all, but I've tasted enough California OO's
> to have a representative sampling. I really do feel that it's just an
> okay-to-mediocre product and the producers are trying to compensate for
> that by getting in your face with direct marketing.
"getting in your face"? They're giving away free samples!
--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
da...@sonic.net
blake murphy
'run' may be the operative word here.
your pal,
blake
sf
I like the one made by http://www.frantoio.com/olive . I haven't
bought any to take home yet, I've only had it at the restaurant. Have
you ever tried it?
Steve Pope
> I like the one made by http://www.frantoio.com/olive . I haven't
> bought any to take home yet, I've only had it at the restaurant. Have
> you ever tried it?
I will make this the next California I try.
In fact, I'm about at the end of the most recent bottle of Titone,
so maybe I'll buy it next.
Steve
Chemiker
<nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote:
LOL! Behold the pragmatist!
I hope the tacos were great!
Alex
Chemiker
Sheesh.
Alex, who just bought 3-lb tub of lard.
Tonight: Linquini Shrimp, EVOO, lemon pepper, garlic, white wine,
italian bread, white wine (Speroni Vermouth in the dish, glassed wine
TBD), fresh-baked peach pie. Vanilla Ice Cream.
cshenk
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 17:49:07 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Mom used a roux for her beef stew (oddly, one item she truely
> > excelled at and i have yet to beat)
>
> My mother made good gravy too... they were "of the age", I guess.
LOL, Mom never made gravy except for a packet where you add water. I
love her dearly, but she's unsure how to even spiff up hamburger helper.
Culinarily she has 2 claims to fame. My Brother and i both learned how
to cook rather well eventually. My sister may make a 3rd (she married
a guy who cooks well and has finally learned to chop veggies for him).
I know it sounds funny but it's also true.
When I moved out from home, it was to an apartment with 3 other girls.
They took turns making dinner and my first turn? I got relegated to
permanent dishwasher while they went to 'every 3rd night turn' among
one another!
Digging toe in carpet, I thought the hamburger helper 'cheese and mac'
with canned green beans was ok....
It was actually my lucky break. They let me watch and they really did
have a clue. I have of course, progressed since then (grin).
--
cshenk
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 17:55:37 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > sf wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> >
> > > On Thu, 04 Aug 2011 16:34:46 -0500, "cshenk" <csh...@cox.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'm not a major roux maker, but when I do it, I was taught to
> > > > use butter or pork fat or duck fat (rendered). Probably all
> > > > wrong there too eh?
> > >
> > > Too up scale.
> >
> > Not really. We eat pork and duck pretty often so those are 'free
> > fats' here. I have a jar of rendered duck fat right now, about 1.5
> > cups. I have about 2 cups of pork fats (1 each bacon and home made
> > sausage).
>
> Duck fat isn't upscale? Think again. I've never seen it (ever) and
> no one I know personally has ever mentioned seeing it either.
>
> I know my out of town kids can buy rendered pork fat easily where they
> live - which is only 45 minutes away from me, but I've never seen it
> and I have lots of Mexican markets to shop at here too. I realized
> when I saw the container that I was looking for the wrong thing, it's
> oblong and looks like a container of light butter instead of the round
> (sour cream like) container I was expected to find.
Naw, add up that for me, it's a free product from cooking a duck. We
make a domestic (USA) duck every 4-6 weeks here. Because domestically
raised ducks are quite fatty (I am unsure of wild ones), you get a good
cup or more of rendered fat for each one. We save it so it's not
exotic to us.
Now, if we didn't have a cheap source for ducks (local asian market),
it would be another thing! The point though was duck fat is one of the
fat bases for roux I was taught. Presumably a common fat in louisiana
at seasonal times when the ducks came there.
Carol
--
Ranée at Arabian Knits
"Giusi" <deco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> ha scritto nel
> messaggio >> think making gumbo predates most oils other than olive oil.
> >
> > How about peanut oil?
>
> Is that not Booker T Washington? 2oth century?
George Washington Carver.
Regards,
Ranee @ Arabian Knits
"She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13
tharp...@gmail.com
> sf wrote:
>
> >> Same experience, and the EVOO wants to separate from the brown roux
> >> and float on top. Personally I like to use a good quality butter,
> >> sometimes clarified butter. Adds another dimension to the taste. You
> >> just have to be careful with the temperature so it takes a little
> >> longer.
>
> > *Butter*? Oh, no.
>
> Classic roux is just butter and flour
> --
> ViLco
> Let the liquor do the thinki
Using butter is French. Any Cajon chef usually uses vegtable oil.
tharp...@gmail.com
> > "Nunya Bidnits" <nunyab...@eternal-september.invalid> ha scritto
> > nel messaggio
> >>> Made a batch of Cajun (brown) gumbo yesterday and it was terrible.
> >>> THe roux would not brown properly and the resultant dish had a
> >>> tacky oily feel/tooth and a floury aftertaste. After much soul
> >>> searchinng ( and internet time), I think I have found the culprit.
> >>>
> >>> Found a reference in the GumboPages that warns the reader NOT to
> >>> make roux with olive oil, as they invariably come up poorly.
> >>> Reflection proved that I had done so, because I couldn't find the
> >>> peanut oil. Bought a fresh bottle of peanut oil, and remeasured the AP
> >>> flour,
> >>> and the roux came up beautifully, with exactly the right "nose".
> >>>
> >>> A word to the wise. Avoid EVOO for roux.
> >>>
> >>> Alex
> >> Same experience, and the EVOO wants to separate from the brown roux
> >> and float on top. Personally I like to use a good quality butter,
> >> sometimes clarified butter. Adds another dimension to the taste. You
> >> just have to be careful with the temperature so it takes a little
> >> longer.
> >
>
> quality butter like Plugra, or I use clarified butter. Also if I want it
> really dark chocolate brown, I probably won't use any butter. In practice,
> since there is always some sort of meat involved which produces rendered
> fat, and it gets used as well, as I noted in the previous post. But
> sometimes there isn't enough animal fat to do the job in which case I'll go
> for butter or bacon fat. For lighter colored rouxs and bechamel, I prefer
> butter .
>
> MartyB
Don`t use butter unless you`re cooking French. Use Veg. or Olive oil.
tharp...@gmail.com
> Made a batch of Cajun (brown) gumbo yesterday and it was terrible. THe
> roux would not brown properly and the resultant dish had a tacky oily
> feel/tooth and a floury aftertaste. After much soul searchinng ( and
> internet time), I think I have found the culprit.
>
> Found a reference in the GumboPages that warns the reader NOT to make
> roux with olive oil, as they invariably come up poorly. Reflection
> proved that I had done so, because I couldn't find the peanut oil.
>
> Bought a fresh bottle of peanut oil, and remeasured the AP flour, and
> the roux came up beautifully, with exactly the right "nose".
>
> A word to the wise. Avoid EVOO for roux.
>
> Alex