advice dept.
blake murphy
Boston: My question is about how a vegan should host a holiday dinner for
nonvegan guests.
My family recently decided to rotate holidays, and this is my first time
hosting. I have been vegan since I was a child, and I am strongly against
the killing of animals for food. It would be completely against my values
to serve traditional, nonvegan food, but the rest of my family does not
share these values and is extremely upset. I am excited to have my family
over and cook for them, but they said they will not come if I refuse to
compromise. I understand why they're upset about their favorite foods, but
I also don't think it's fair for me to act against my morals to accommodate
their taste for turkey. I'm getting married next year, and I'm already
hearing from everyone how rude and selfish I am to be having a vegan
wedding. Any dinner party I host, my family complains and decides they hate
the food before they try it. What should I do about this perpetual vegan
party problem?
Emily Yoffe: It's great that your family wants to rotate hosting duties,
but it's not good that they want to rotate you on a spit because of your
moral objections to eating animals. You should say you're delighted to
host, but you can't compromise your principles. So they either agree to
come or they agree that your house is not the proper venue for the holiday
meal. If it's the latter, you could say you will contribute numerous salads
and vegetable dishes to make up for the fact that you can't have the party
at your house.
As for telling you you're rude and selfish to open your home and offer to
feed them, or that you will have an unacceptable wedding because you won't
serve meat嚙碼hmmm, I wonder who's being rude and selfish? Stop inviting them
to dinner parties. But when they make nasty comments about the wedding, say
you are sorry to hear they've decided they won't enjoy it. Explain you're
excited about your wedding and hope it will be a joyous day for everyone no
matter what the main course.
*
so what do y'all make of that?
your meat-eating pal,
blake
Steve Pope
>from an online discussion with *slate*'s 'dear prudie:
>Boston: My question is about how a vegan should host a holiday dinner for
>nonvegan guests.
>My family recently decided to rotate holidays, and this is my first time
>hosting. I have been vegan since I was a child, and I am strongly against
>the killing of animals for food. It would be completely against my values
>to serve traditional, nonvegan food, but the rest of my family does not
>share these values and is extremely upset. I am excited to have my family
>over and cook for them, but they said they will not come if I refuse to
>compromise. [..]
>Emily Yoffe: It's great that your family wants to rotate hosting duties,
>but it's not good that they want to rotate you on a spit because of your
>moral objections to eating animals. You should say you're delighted to
>host, but you can't compromise your principles. So they either agree to
>come or they agree that your house is not the proper venue for the holiday
>meal. If it's the latter, you could say you will contribute numerous salads
>and vegetable dishes to make up for the fact that you can't have the party
>at your house.
>
>As for telling you you're rude and selfish to open your home and offer to
>feed them, or that you will have an unacceptable wedding because you won't
>serve meat�Xhmmm, I wonder who's being rude and selfish? Stop inviting them
>to dinner parties. But when they make nasty comments about the wedding, say
>you are sorry to hear they've decided they won't enjoy it. Explain you're
>excited about your wedding and hope it will be a joyous day for everyone no
>matter what the main course.
>so what do y'all make of that?
Her answer was far too gentle.
I think that people who are (a) absolutely insistent on eating meat
each and every day and (b) beyond that, insistent upon harassing vegans
should be disowned completely.
Those who insist upon crossing others' boundaries like that
are potentially dangerous. I would not want them to even know
where I live.
Steve
George Leppla
> from an online discussion with *slate*'s 'dear prudie:
>
> Boston: My question is about how a vegan should host a holiday dinner for
> nonvegan guests.
>
> My family recently decided to rotate holidays, and this is my first time
> hosting. I have been vegan since I was a child, and I am strongly against
> the killing of animals for food. It would be completely against my values
> to serve traditional, nonvegan food, but the rest of my family does not
> share these values and is extremely upset. I am excited to have my family
> over and cook for them, but they said they will not come if I refuse to
> compromise.
And that would be their loss. The guests don't set the menu, the host
does. If the guests don't like what will be served, then they can stay
home. I wonder how many of these people go out of their way to serve
special vegan dishes when this person visits them?
OK.... there are going to be some people who say OTOH, a good host cooks
to please his/her guests. If I know that a visitor doesn't like
something, I am not likely to make that dish, but that is MY choice, not
theirs.
Compromise.... tell everyone that if they want meat dishes, they should
bring them and that the host will supply appetizers, soup, salad, side
dishes and desserts.
But I have to say, if given an ultimatum that I HAVE to cook a certain
way or people won't come, my response would most likely be "I sure am
going to miss your company at dinner and I hope you stop in for cake and
coffee later in the day."
George L
zxcvbob
> The guests don't set the menu, the host does. [snip] a good host cooks
> to please his/her guests. If I know that a visitor doesn't like
> something, I am not likely to make that dish, but that is MY choice, not
> theirs.
That about sums it up.
Bob
sf
>serve meat�Xhmmm, I wonder who's being rude and selfish? Stop inviting them
>to dinner parties. But when they make nasty comments about the wedding, say
>you are sorry to hear they've decided they won't enjoy it. Explain you're
>excited about your wedding and hope it will be a joyous day for everyone no
>matter what the main course.
>
>*
>
>so what do y'all make of that?
>
Why not offer her house and list the vegan dishes she will make
telling them (nicely) that if they want to bring meat, they may?
--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Dave Bugg
> your meat-eating pal,
> blake
The person writing indicates that she wants to host a get-together without
accomodating the needs of those who have a different idea, of her, of what
an acceptable diet is. Given that she knows the feelings of her family
member to her vegan lifestyle, she offers to host this get together with a
'frack you' attitude about the preferences of others. She seems to want an
'in-your-face' confrontation rather than a sincere desire to host a party.
It also seems she wants others to pity her for taking on the role of an
outcast.
I A vegan who is extended an invitation to a get-together that I host should
keep any objections to my omnivorous menu quiet, and just say either
'thank-you' or 'no thank-you'. As a good host, knowing that I was extending
an invitation to a vegan, I would make sure said vegan would have a good
selection of food items.
As was mentioned, she would be better off skipping the hosting role and just
show up to someone else's party with vegan-prepared goodies. You don't
--
Dave
What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan
Steve Pope
>Why not offer her house and list the vegan dishes she will make
>telling them (nicely) that if they want to bring meat, they may?
Because you don't want to give these louts any sort of opening
by telling them it's okay to bring meat?
Steve
sf
wrote:
I wonder why they included her in the rotation when they knew she was
vegan and would cook a vegan meal? Why didn't she bow out when
included? She already knew what their attitude is.
pamjd
your assistance. Either being with family is worth compromise or bow
out of the rotation. Life is too short not to pick your battles
wisely.
brooklyn1
<blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote:
>serve meat?Xhmmm, I wonder who's being rude and selfish? Stop inviting them
>to dinner parties. But when they make nasty comments about the wedding, say
>you are sorry to hear they've decided they won't enjoy it. Explain you're
>excited about your wedding and hope it will be a joyous day for everyone no
>matter what the main course.
>
>*
>
>so what do y'all make of that?
>
>
If the majority are vegan then there are plenty more than enough vegan
dishes to satisfy all, even the meat eaters, who can go without meat
for one meal... are kasha varnishkas, chocolate mouse, and vodka
vegan? I had cheese filled ravioli with tomato sauce for dinner
tonight, no meat... is that vegan? And if any vegan is going to
complain about the minute minutia of veganism, or even mention vegan
the entire evening, then they are not vegan, they are ball busters and
deserve to be ejected and with vociferous proclamation.
pamjd
>
> - Show quoted text -
Gelatin in mouse is not vegan, cheese is not vegan. If the OP has
gone to other holiday dinners and not boycotted because meat was
served why drawing the line in the vegan sand now? I would provide a
turkey and provide enough vegan things the turkey ends up being a side
dish. Heck you might get a couple converts if the vegan things are
yummy enough.
Ran?e at Arabian Knits
blake murphy <blakepm...@verizon.net> wrote:
> serve meat�Xhmmm, I wonder who's being rude and selfish? Stop inviting them
> to dinner parties. But when they make nasty comments about the wedding, say
> you are sorry to hear they've decided they won't enjoy it. Explain you're
> excited about your wedding and hope it will be a joyous day for everyone no
> matter what the main course.
>
> *
>
> so what do y'all make of that?
>
> your meat-eating pal,
> blake
I actually think the wedding thing is the family's problem. If she
and her groom wish to have a vegan wedding, so be it. The holidays,
though, I think are not a time to force one's eating habits on others.
Either she should allow them to bring pot luck of things they want, or
the family ought to not have her host.
Regards,
Ranee @ Arabian Knits
"She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
"Dave Bugg" <dave...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The person writing indicates that she wants to host a get-together without
> accomodating the needs of those who have a different idea, of her, of what
> an acceptable diet is. Given that she knows the feelings of her family
> member to her vegan lifestyle, she offers to host this get together with a
> 'frack you' attitude about the preferences of others. She seems to want an
> 'in-your-face' confrontation rather than a sincere desire to host a party.
> It also seems she wants others to pity her for taking on the role of an
> outcast.
That's really why I think this is her problem. She knows this is a
time for traditional foods for the family, she knows they will want meat
and butter, etc, but she is determined to force them not to have it so
she can make her point.
My mother is quasi-Muslim. Even though we don't have the same
dietary restrictions she does, we don't serve ham or bacon or pork chops
to her when she visits. Even though there are lots of times we'd have
liked to have had a ham or whatever. We serve what she can eat, or at
least offer a reasonable alternative. When we visit other people's
homes who do not know of, or who are hostile toward our own set of
dietary restrictions, we break our Wednesday and Friday fasts.
We haven't had occasion where we absolutely had to break our fast in
our own home, as most people don't notice that we eat meatless on
Wednesdays or Fridays when they come to eat, but we also are permitted
to eat seafood on those days. Even so, we take our guests religious or
health restrictions into account when we host.
We choose not to eat foods made by Conagra (among other
agribusinesses), try to eat organic foods or locally grown and mostly
whole foods for instance. Yet, when my ILs brought a package of kosher
hot dogs that they picked up for a great deal, we did not flip out, and
didn't hover over our children as they ate them. Nor did we make any
comments about how we normally don't eat that stuff. We just let them
bless our family, which was what they were trying to do, and thanked
them. Why should we make them feel bad over one food or one meal?
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
> Because you don't want to give these louts any sort of opening
> by telling them it's okay to bring meat?
So, likewise, should this louse's family not give her any sort of
opening to bring her vegan dishes? I mean, who wants all that vegetable
shortening, margarine, soy protein, fake meats, etc?
Steve Pope
>That's really why I think this is her problem. She knows this is a
>time for traditional foods for the family, she knows they will want meat
>and butter, etc, but she is determined to force them not to have it so
>she can make her point.
Veganism is not about "making a point", although this is what
the anti-vegans would have one beliee.
Steve
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
I didn't say it was. I said that she was trying to make her point.
If it didn't bother her enough when she visited other people's homes, as
they ate cheese, jello salads, turkey, ham, whatever, then why should
she insist they can't have those things in her home? On a holiday?
Which has specific food traditions for their family?
George Leppla
> In article <hfms9s$fen$1...@blue.rahul.net>,
> spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
>> Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That's really why I think this is her problem. She knows this is a
>>> time for traditional foods for the family, she knows they will want meat
>>> and butter, etc, but she is determined to force them not to have it so
>>> she can make her point.
>> Veganism is not about "making a point", although this is what
>> the anti-vegans would have one beliee.
>
> I didn't say it was. I said that she was trying to make her point.
> If it didn't bother her enough when she visited other people's homes, as
> they ate cheese, jello salads, turkey, ham, whatever, then why should
> she insist they can't have those things in her home? On a holiday?
> Which has specific food traditions for their family?
When she is visiting other people, presumably she eats what she is
able... her choice. She isn't asking (or demanding) that they change
the way they cook just to accommodate her.
Her family coming to visit her is demanding that she do things their
way, even though they know it is against her beliefs.
People imposing their will on another (dietary, religious, political,
etc ) under duress is never a good thing.
Another point is that this person says that she has been a vegan for
many, many years. Her family knows this. Seems to me they are the ones
trying to make their point by not accepting her beliefs. I wonder how
many of them have gone out of their way to accommodate her dietary
wishes at family gatherings over the years?
Like I said in an earlier post, there is room for compromise... assuming
both sides are willing to give a little.
George L
Ranée at Arabian Knits
<940cc7a7-0343-4369...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
pamjd <guppy...@aol.com> wrote:
> Gelatin in mouse is not vegan, cheese is not vegan. If the OP has
> gone to other holiday dinners and not boycotted because meat was
> served why drawing the line in the vegan sand now? I would provide a
> turkey and provide enough vegan things the turkey ends up being a side
> dish. Heck you might get a couple converts if the vegan things are
> yummy enough.
No honey, no milk, no cream, no butter, no cheese, no yogurt, no sour
cream, no buttermilk, no eggs, either.
Children of vegan mothers tend to have lower birth weight and when
nursing, suffer from a failure to thrive and some neurological disorders
more than other children, as their breast milk is more deficient than
omnivores. It takes special planning to make a vegan diet work for
children (for adults, for that matter). It is only because of modern
centralized food distribution, overseas importing of foods year round
and dietary supplements that a vegan diet can be sustained. This tends
to indicate for me that it is a poor design for people. If someone
wants to do it, more power to them, but touting it as a great thing or
forcing it on others is terrible.
Vegetarianism, on the other hand, while I wouldn't do it myself, at
least allows for getting those missing nutrients and proteins from food,
rather than supplements. There is no record of any culture, historic or
modern, that was vegan. Even those which are considered vegetarian
consume lots of butter, milk, cheese, eggs, etc. Many of those eat on
fish or meat when they can get it.
Omelet
<arabianknits-F0A6...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I mean, who wants all that vegetable
> shortening, margarine, soy protein, fake meats, etc?
Um, who says vegan dishes have to contain that garbage?
I may be a dedicated carnivore but I'm perfectly capable of cooking some
totally vegan dishes without using margarine, soy protein and other fake
foods. ;-)
I prepare and eat as much veggie stuff as I do meat, and my family
members thing it tastes pretty good!
--
Peace! Om
"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein
Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
recfood...@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: recfoodrecip...@yahoogroups.com
Omelet
I agree.
People should respect each others dietary choices. If they choose to
have a vegan family member host a family meal, they should expect to eat
meatless for a night. There are plenty of wonderful vegan recipes and
I'd personally not mind missing meat for a night one bit for a holiday
dinner.
Might be an interesting adventure. ;-)
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
George Leppla <geo...@cruisemaster.com> wrote:
Perhaps I misread it, but it sounded like she was saying that the
entire meal/holiday would have to be vegan. This would be like her
family saying that she couldn't bring margarine to their house, either
eat butter or go without. If she was simply saying she wouldn't prepare
those foods, then that is my misreading and mistake.
Janet
Yeah, and it is the family who is picking this battle, not the vegan.
For heavens sake, eating ONE vegan meal is not going to kill them. It's not
as if this person is intending to force them to change their eating habits
for an entire day, much less for life. For that matter, I'd be willing to
bet that if they were served a vegan meal without fanfare by a non vegan,
they wouldn't even notice.
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I prepare and eat as much veggie stuff as I do meat, and my family
> members thing it tastes pretty good!
We eat meatless at least twice a week, for religious reasons. I do
not dispute that it is possible to have an excellent meal without meat.
It is the entire lifestyle which becomes dependent on soy and vegetable
substitutes that bothers me.
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
"Janet" <box...@maine.rr.com> wrote:
> For that matter, I'd be willing to
> bet that if they were served a vegan meal without fanfare by a non vegan,
> they wouldn't even notice.
Perhaps this is true. We have certainly found that people do not
notice that we are serving a meatless meal when they come to our house
on Wednesdays or Fridays. However, this was an announcement made with
fanfare, so it's a little hard to take it back.
Gregory Morrow
Most vegans I've encountered are hare - brains, pure and simple...they have
not "thought things through" about *why* they are vegan and they are ignernt
about matters vegan...
The most perfervid vegans I've encountered tend more often than not to be
*severe* substance abusers/addicts, e.g. they are alkies, druggies,
gamblers, smokers, morbidly obese, etc....they somehow think that being
"vegan" will elevate them morally and thus "erase" their other sins...a
bnncha SMUG motherfuckers...
I've hung around a lot of lesbians and for some reason the nuttier
dysfunctional nutcases - and that is a LARGE percentage of ALL lezboes -
tend to be "vegan" or have very wierd food phobias. A popular one is fear
of "deadly nightshades", they shrink at the sight of a potato, an eggplant,
a tomato, a bell pepper...
Not ONE can elucidate the reasons why they are vegan, in conversations with
them they are completely devoid of any basic info such as how to combine
foods to make complete proteins and amino acids, etc....
Leftists, hippies, and "greenies" I lump in the same category as I do the
lezboes, they are truly and stupendously and bizarrely *clueless*...
"Vegans" are major crybabies and PITA's, I simply DON'T abide their whinging
presence...
--
Best
Greg
none of your business
> blake murphy <blakepmNOTT...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> >from an online discussion with *slate*'s 'dear prudie:
> >Boston: My question is about how a vegan should host a holiday dinner for
> >nonvegan guests.
> >My family recently decided to rotate holidays, and this is my first time
> >hosting. I have been vegan since I was a child, and I am strongly against
> >the killing of animals for food. It would be completely against my values
> >to serve traditional, nonvegan food, but the rest of my family does not
> >share these values and is extremely upset. I am excited to have my family
> >over and cook for them, but they said they will not come if I refuse to
> >Emily Yoffe: It's great that your family wants to rotate hosting duties,
> >but it's not good that they want to rotate you on a spit because of your
> >moral objections to eating animals. You should say you're delighted to
> >host, but you can't compromise your principles. So they either agree to
> >come or they agree that your house is not the proper venue for the holiday
> >meal. If it's the latter, you could say you will contribute numerous salads
> >and vegetable dishes to make up for the fact that you can't have the party
> >at your house.
>
> >As for telling you you're rude and selfish to open your home and offer to
> >feed them, or that you will have an unacceptable wedding because you won't
> >to dinner parties. But when they make nasty comments about the wedding, say
> >you are sorry to hear they've decided they won't enjoy it. Explain you're
> >excited about your wedding and hope it will be a joyous day for everyone no
> >matter what the main course.
>
>
> I think that people who are (a) absolutely insistent on eating meat
> each and every day and (b) beyond that, insistent upon harassing vegans
> should be disowned completely.
>
> Those who insist upon crossing others' boundaries like that
> are potentially dangerous. I would not want them to even know
> where I live.
>
> Steve
I think the fear of the non-vegans may be that they will be forced to
eat "weird" things like tofu, soy protein meat substitute, etc. I
never understood vegans eating soy burgers and tofu hotdogs. It's like
someone from PETA wearing fake fur.
There are many meat free, dairy free and egg free dishes that are not
"fake" food. Pasta with oil, broccoli and garlic is a standard Italian
Christmas dish. And it's vegan. (until you add grated cheese...) Beans
and rice is another traditional Latino Christmas dish. Spinach gnocchi
in a light pomodoro sauce. Very elegant. And vegan. How about a big
platter of roasted winter veggies? Potatoes, turnips, parsnips,
carrots, radishes, celery root... olive oil, salt and pepper, fresh
herbs. Fabulous. Lots and lots of "normal" foods that also happen to
be vegan.
My advice: the host should make what they believe in and what they
want to cook. Whoever comes for dinner, great. Whoever doesn't, their
loss!
zxcvbob
>
> Most vegans I've encountered are hare - brains, pure and simple...they have
> not "thought things through" about *why* they are vegan and they are ignernt
> about matters vegan...
>
> The most perfervid vegans I've encountered tend more often than not to be
> *severe* substance abusers/addicts, e.g. they are alkies, druggies,
> gamblers, smokers, morbidly obese, etc....they somehow think that being
> "vegan" will elevate them morally and thus "erase" their other sins...a
> bnncha SMUG motherfuckers...
>
> I've hung around a lot of lesbians and for some reason the nuttier
> dysfunctional nutcases - and that is a LARGE percentage of ALL lezboes -
> tend to be "vegan" or have very wierd food phobias. A popular one is fear
> of "deadly nightshades", they shrink at the sight of a potato, an eggplant,
> a tomato, a bell pepper...
>
> Not ONE can elucidate the reasons why they are vegan, in conversations with
> them they are completely devoid of any basic info such as how to combine
> foods to make complete proteins and amino acids, etc....
>
> Leftists, hippies, and "greenies" I lump in the same category as I do the
> lezboes, they are truly and stupendously and bizarrely *clueless*...
>
> "Vegans" are major crybabies and PITA's, I simply DON'T abide their whinging
> presence...
>
>
Nice rant. You get extra points for using the word "whinging" ;-)
Serene Vannoy
>
> But I have to say, if given an ultimatum that I HAVE to cook a certain
> way or people won't come, my response would most likely be "I sure am
> going to miss your company at dinner and I hope you stop in for cake and
> coffee later in the day."
Yep. How rude of a guest to try to dictate the menu. As though people
can't live without meat for one meal! There are plenty of perfectly
good dinners that don't involve meat, and getting together should be
about the company, not about browbeating the host into doing something
they find repulsive.
Serene
--
42 Magazine, celebrating life with meaning. Issue 2 is here!
http://42magazine.com
"I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory
Serene Vannoy
> spo...@speedymail.org (Steve Pope) wrote:
>
>> Because you don't want to give these louts any sort of opening
>> by telling them it's okay to bring meat?
>
> So, likewise, should this louse's family not give her any sort of
> opening to bring her vegan dishes? I mean, who wants all that vegetable
> shortening, margarine, soy protein, fake meats, etc?
These foods are some vegan choices I've taken to potlucks:
Wheatberry salad
Hummus and tabouli
Spaghetti marinara
Green salad with vinaigrette
Raspberry sorbet
Baked winter squash with walnut-and-wild-rice stuffing
Homemade sourdough bread
Watermelon boat filled with fruit salad
Mashed potatoes with mushroom gravy
Red beans and rice & mustard greens
No one has ever said "Oh, no, this is VEGAN! I can't eat THIS!!"
The difference, as I see it, is that meat-eaters eat plenty of non-meat
foods, so adding some non-meat food to their day isn't putting them out.
Vegans eat NO meat, so asking them to eat or serve it can be an
imposition.
(I say "can be" because I was one of those vegans who didn't mind
cooking meat for others, so long as no one expected me to eat it.)
Omelet
<arabianknits-50FE...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <ompomelet-E146E...@news-wc.giganews.com>,
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I prepare and eat as much veggie stuff as I do meat, and my family
> > members thing it tastes pretty good!
>
> We eat meatless at least twice a week, for religious reasons. I do
> not dispute that it is possible to have an excellent meal without meat.
> It is the entire lifestyle which becomes dependent on soy and vegetable
> substitutes that bothers me.
>
> Regards,
> Ranee
But it's her choice!
Melba's Jammin'
<arabianknits-0A19...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If it didn't bother her enough when she visited other people's homes, as
> they ate cheese, jello salads, turkey, ham, whatever, then why should
> she insist they can't have those things in her home?
Because she was a guest in those homes and wasn't inclined to try to
impose her wishes, rules, desires, or needs on her host/ess? And hopes
for the same courtesy when she is hosting the gathering?
> On a holiday?
If serving food derived from animals is against her principles, why
should she not be allowed to honor her principles? We have some
friends; she's alcoholic and, to my knowledge, he is not. They used to
serve liquor to their guests. In the last year or so, when the
beverages were offered, the choices were largely sparkling fruit juices,
accompanied by an announcement that they no longer serve alcohol in
their home. I've never noticed anyone twitching because of its absence.
> Which has specific food traditions for their family?
So there's a new tradition � vegan chow when the Boston Sister hosts the
party. If enjoyment of the occasion is so dependent on the food served,
I think there are deeper issues that might merit mending. I'm with Om
� one day without meat, dairy, or other animal products isn't going to
kill anybody.
JMO.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.me.com/barbschaller - Who Said Chickens Have Fingers?
10-30-2009
j h
though the carnivores are determined to have their way where the vegan
is mostly holding the line.
Situations re families and holiday meals can be brutal! My Thanksgiving
was a soap opera and I disinvited both families after #1 announced
(after accepting) that for health reasons the meal had to be low fat,
low fiber, low acid plus no pumpkin (and they wouldn't know until the
very last moment if they could make it); #2 objected that I had invited
#l, didn't want to share a meal with "those people", and dictated a
whole other set of food restrictions.
I was looking forward to whomping up a traditional feast and serving it
to a circle of folks who would dig in with pleasure and gratitude. (At
83 yo how many more times will I have the opportunity?) I found a place
at such a table elsewhere.........
Liz
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <arabianknits-50FE...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
> Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <ompomelet-E146E...@news-wc.giganews.com>,
> > Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I prepare and eat as much veggie stuff as I do meat, and my family
> > > members thing it tastes pretty good!
> >
> > We eat meatless at least twice a week, for religious reasons. I do
> > not dispute that it is possible to have an excellent meal without meat.
> > It is the entire lifestyle which becomes dependent on soy and vegetable
> > substitutes that bothers me.
>
> But it's her choice!
Oh, absolutely, and she is free to make it. That doesn't make it a
good choice, nor should she be able to force it on her guests when it is
a choice. But to force it on her guests, rather than bringing this
problem up when the option of rotating the holidays came up, instead
insisting that the holidays will be vegan or else, if she is hosting is
petulant and rude. It is also stupid, as she knew what the response
would be, that the family would want at least some of the traditional
foods, etc.
sf
wrote:
>In article
><arabianknits-F0A6...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
> Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I mean, who wants all that vegetable
>> shortening, margarine, soy protein, fake meats, etc?
>
>Um, who says vegan dishes have to contain that garbage?
>I may be a dedicated carnivore but I'm perfectly capable of cooking some
>totally vegan dishes without using margarine, soy protein and other fake
>foods. ;-)
>
>I prepare and eat as much veggie stuff as I do meat, and my family
>members thing it tastes pretty good!
Tofu items are not crap. They can be very tasty.
--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Melba's Jammin' <barbsc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article
> <arabianknits-0A19...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
> Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If it didn't bother her enough when she visited other people's homes, as
> > they ate cheese, jello salads, turkey, ham, whatever, then why should
> > she insist they can't have those things in her home?
>
> Because she was a guest in those homes and wasn't inclined to try to
> impose her wishes, rules, desires, or needs on her host/ess? And hopes
> for the same courtesy when she is hosting the gathering?
It didn't sound like anyone made any ultimatums about no vegan foods
at their celebrations, however, and it is this that bothers me about the
situation.
> > On a holiday?
>
> If serving food derived from animals is against her principles, why
> should she not be allowed to honor her principles? We have some
> friends; she's alcoholic and, to my knowledge, he is not. They used to
> serve liquor to their guests. In the last year or so, when the
> beverages were offered, the choices were largely sparkling fruit juices,
> accompanied by an announcement that they no longer serve alcohol in
> their home. I've never noticed anyone twitching because of its absence.
Alcohol is not generally considered a necessity as food is, nor is it
often served as a main dish. At least not in my circles. :-) If we
had to give up wine to have dinner with family, it wouldn't be a big
deal. If someone made a big deal about it, how it was unprincipled, etc
and not to be served in their home because they were pure, unlike us
unwashed masses, then I would not be okay with it.
> > Which has specific food traditions for their family?
>
> So there's a new tradition � vegan chow when the Boston Sister hosts the
> party. If enjoyment of the occasion is so dependent on the food served,
> I think there are deeper issues that might merit mending. I'm with Om
> � one day without meat, dairy, or other animal products isn't going to
> kill anybody.
No, it won't. But pushing one's own beliefs on others is supposed to
be so wrong nowadays. We have family members who do not understand nor
really respect our choices about fasting. Rather than make it a fight
with them each time, we break the fast when we are with them. If this
were not a family, holiday meal, I wouldn't see it in the same light.
Food traditions and memories are powerful and important, as is evidenced
here each holiday season. Insisting that it's her way or the highway,
without mentioning it when the discussion first came up about rotating
the meal hosting is wrong.
Again, for her wedding, she is entitled to have whatever she and the
groom want, IMO. This holiday, though, isn't about her. Nobody would
say she had to buy, prepare or eat animal products, but banning them
from the holiday (as it sounded in the letter), is out of line.
bolivar
"sf" <s...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:p9cuh59k7d6jl2qn7...@4ax.com...
>
> Tofu items are not crap. They can be very tasty.
>
Spoken like a true Californian. :)
Is that pink tofu???? :)
Boli
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
I agree with you. However, asking the family to trade a turkey for
tofurky (or, more appropriately, faux turkey) or a gluten loaf or wheat
berry salad is a bit much at a holiday, especially with no warning when
the decision making was being done. The way the letter was written, it
did not sound like she had mentioned her vegan holiday plan to them
initially, since she said that now that it was her turn to host this
problem came up.
I don't know all the particulars, but it doesn't seem to me that she
has to purchase, prepare or partake of the meat, dairy, eggs or honey,
for instance. Much like the case with the family that was charging for
Thanksgiving dinner, I don't see why it can't just be potluck and the
other guests bring the things they wish to help alleviate the cost and
work.
When we have people over with weird dietary restrictions, we abide by
them, and for a meal at their home, we'd live with whatever they served.
It is the fact that it is a holiday and she has seemingly given the
family an ultimatum about it without previous warning that drives me
batty. Evidently, it is okay for her to force her beliefs on her guests.
sf
wrote:
>The issue is not food (vegan vs non vegan) but control. And it sounds as
>though the carnivores are determined to have their way where the vegan
>is mostly holding the line.
If it was my family, the words might be the same but the intent
wouldn't be. They would just be acting like they couldn't live a day
w/o meat or whatever it is the vegan won't have on the table (the
fakers), but they would come, eat and have a great time anyway.
Who knows? Maybe the OP is not understanding they are ribbing her. I
can't imagine why she would be included in a rotation if they knew
they wouldn't eat her cooking.
sf
wrote:
Actually, I had a whole story about an ex coworker that I deleted
which I could insert here... but I won't. I'll just say she made
great food and it was all vegan. There was nothing you could point to
and say "tofu", but it was.
Ranee at Arabian Knits
sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:
> Actually, I had a whole story about an ex coworker that I deleted
> which I could insert here... but I won't. I'll just say she made
> great food and it was all vegan. There was nothing you could point to
> and say "tofu", but it was.
I've only ever had tofu twice in any way that I enjoyed. I try to
limit my soy consumption anyway, so it's no loss to me. If I were
served it, I'd eat it politely, though, and have, convincingly enough
that Rich asked me if I really liked it when we went home.
sf
<arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>If I were
>served it, I'd eat it politely, though, and have, convincingly enough
>that Rich asked me if I really liked it when we went home.
This was stuff you wouldn't know was soy unless you were told.
Steve Pope
>Like I said in an earlier post, there is room for compromise... assuming
>both sides are willing to give a little.
That's silly. If a person cannot eat one or two vegan meals
per year, then there is something wrong with them.
Nobody is stopping them from eating meat 99% of the time.
There is no reason to give any credibility at all to
their stance.
The vegan host should not even pursue a discussion on the
topic. Whenever someone complains about the veganism, they
should simply respond with silence. That is always the best response
to abuse, and this is abuse.
Steve
Steve Pope
>I've only ever had tofu twice in any way that I enjoyed. I try to
>limit my soy consumption anyway, so it's no loss to me.
You might not have gotten the real stuff. Much tofu sold
in the U.S. is poor quality.
Steve
ChattyCathy
> from an online discussion with *slate*'s 'dear prudie:
>
> Boston: My question is about how a vegan should host a holiday dinner
> for nonvegan guests.
<snip>
>
> so what do y'all make of that?
>
> your meat-eating pal,
> blake
I just find the whole story a tad unbelievable. [Most people seem to
think the question/comments came from a woman, so I'll follow suit...]
She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she eat
as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not share
these values"? Did her Mom/Dad cook vegan food for her every day until
she was old enough to cook for herself? And surely her family wouldn't
expect her to cook them a 'traditional' dinner that involved meat (and
other stuff she doesn't eat) if this had been an issue since childhood?
IMHO, the question/comments were either just 'made up' or grossly
exaggerated to stir up the whole omnivores vs vegans debate - again.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Steve Pope
>I just find the whole story a tad unbelievable. [Most people seem to
>think the question/comments came from a woman, so I'll follow suit...]
>She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she eat
>as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not share
>these values"?
Datapoint, I have a partner (approximately my age) who is vegetarian, and
has been so since she was a child. The sequence of events was that once
she was old enough to realize that that meat came from animals
(age 5 or 6), she stopped eating it -- end of story.
>Did her Mom/Dad cook vegan food for her every day until
>she was old enough to cook for herself? And surely her family wouldn't
>expect her to cook them a 'traditional' dinner that involved meat (and
>other stuff she doesn't eat) if this had been an issue since childhood?
If the child consistently does not eat meat, the custodial adults/s
(if they are reasonable) will react by figuring out how to feed them a
non-meat-containing diet. If they don't have the knowledge to
do this already, they probably have doctors or friends who can
inform them, or they can read a book. The key is consistency. If the
kid sends mixed signals, then the adults don't have a clean set
of rules to work with, and probably the child will drift out
of total vegetarianism.
Steve
sf
<cath...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she eat
>as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not share
>these values"?
Her idea of child may be different too. Some people consider
teenagers children.
ChattyCathy
> ChattyCathy <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
>>I just find the whole story a tad unbelievable. [Most people seem to
>>think the question/comments came from a woman, so I'll follow suit...]
>
>>She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she
>>eat as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not
>>share these values"?
>
> Datapoint, I have a partner (approximately my age) who is vegetarian,
> and
> has been so since she was a child. The sequence of events was that
> once she was old enough to realize that that meat came from animals
> (age 5 or 6), she stopped eating it -- end of story.
Yabut, there is a big difference between being a vegetarian and a vegan
(and that's what we're talking about here) - there's a whole bunch of
stuff that vegetarians will eat that vegans won't. But yes, if a 5 year
old refuses to eat any meat/poultry put on his/her plate for say,
several months, I'm sure (most) parents will 'get the picture'
eventually. (Well, they should).
>
>>Did her Mom/Dad cook vegan food for her every day until
>>she was old enough to cook for herself? And surely her family wouldn't
>>expect her to cook them a 'traditional' dinner that involved meat (and
>>other stuff she doesn't eat) if this had been an issue since
>>childhood?
>
> If the child consistently does not eat meat, the custodial adults/s
> (if they are reasonable) will react by figuring out how to feed them a
> non-meat-containing diet. If they don't have the knowledge to
> do this already, they probably have doctors or friends who can
> inform them, or they can read a book. The key is consistency. If the
> kid sends mixed signals, then the adults don't have a clean set
> of rules to work with, and probably the child will drift out
> of total vegetarianism.
There's very little my 6 y/o kidlette dislikes, and I don't try
and "force" her to eat anything she doesn't want to. But she does
change her mind sometimes - at some stage she didn't like feta cheese,
now she scarfs it down. She eats meat and poultry too - and yes she
knows where it comes from - we live in a farming area, after all...
However, my first born son (who is in his 20s now) still won't eat
anything remotely "fishy" - and that hasn't changed since he was a
toddler. His choice; more for me. <g>
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
ChattyCathy
> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:40:22 +0200, ChattyCathy
> <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>
>>She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she
>>eat as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not
>>share these values"?
>
> Her idea of child may be different too. Some people consider
> teenagers children.
>
I dunno, but put it this way - if that question and those comments had
originally been posted to Usenet, I'd have given it 8/10
for "trolling". Just my opinion, of course ;-)
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Bob Terwilliger
>> If it didn't bother her enough when she visited other people's homes, as
>> they ate cheese, jello salads, turkey, ham, whatever, then why should
>> she insist they can't have those things in her home?
>
> Because she was a guest in those homes and wasn't inclined to try to
> impose her wishes, rules, desires, or needs on her host/ess? And hopes
> for the same courtesy when she is hosting the gathering?
>
>> On a holiday?
>
> If serving food derived from animals is against her principles, why
> should she not be allowed to honor her principles? We have some
> friends; she's alcoholic and, to my knowledge, he is not. They used to
> serve liquor to their guests. In the last year or so, when the
> beverages were offered, the choices were largely sparkling fruit juices,
> accompanied by an announcement that they no longer serve alcohol in
> their home. I've never noticed anyone twitching because of its absence.
>
>> Which has specific food traditions for their family?
>
> So there's a new tradition < vegan chow when the Boston Sister hosts the
> party. If enjoyment of the occasion is so dependent on the food served,
> I think there are deeper issues that might merit mending. I'm with Om
> � one day without meat, dairy, or other animal products isn't going to
> kill anybody.
>
> JMO.
I agree. I am completely on the side of the vegan here. It's her house, and
if she doesn't want animal products in her house, that's her prerogative. If
the rest of the family can't accept that, then (1) they're too close-minded
to merit any kind of respect and (2) they shouldn't have put her on the
rotation in the first place, knowing she's a vegan. I strongly doubt that
EVERYBODY in the family is on the rotation anyway. There are always those
people who live too far away or who are chronically unemployed.
So either they come to her house and eat vegan, or they have their holiday
meal somewhere else.
Bob
Bob Terwilliger
> Gelatin in mouse is not vegan
Neither the gelatin *nor* the mouse! :-)
Mousse doesn't have to contain gelatin, cream, or eggs, though. It's
possible to make a vegan mousse using agar-agar or some similar product.
> cheese is not vegan. If the OP has gone to other holiday dinners and not
> boycotted because meat was served why drawing the line in the vegan sand
> now?
Because this time it's being served in *her* house, and she has a moral
objection to it. You know, that whole thing about your house being your
castle and all. She respects *their* household rules, why do they refuse to
accept hers?
> I would provide a turkey and provide enough vegan things the turkey ends
> up being a side dish. Heck you might get a couple converts if the vegan
> things are yummy enough.
Let me draw a parallel: Suppose you were strongly opposed to smoking, and
the rest of your family thought you were unreasonable not to allow smoking
in your house. Would you allow them all to light up just because you were
the hostess?
Bob
sf
the whole situation *is* rather odd.
ChattyCathy
> These foods are some vegan choices I've taken to potlucks:
>
> Wheatberry salad
> Hummus and tabouli
> Spaghetti marinara
> Green salad with vinaigrette
> Raspberry sorbet
> Baked winter squash with walnut-and-wild-rice stuffing
> Homemade sourdough bread
> Watermelon boat filled with fruit salad
> Mashed potatoes with mushroom gravy
> Red beans and rice & mustard greens
>
> No one has ever said "Oh, no, this is VEGAN! I can't eat THIS!!"
Heh. Never even occurred to me that those foods would be
specifically 'vegan'. I've eaten most of the foods on your list (and
enjoyed them).
>
> The difference, as I see it, is that meat-eaters eat plenty of
> non-meat foods, so adding some non-meat food to their day isn't
> putting them out.
We eat meat most days - but there are times when we just feel like
having a "veggie-only" dinner, so we do. Hasn't killed us yet, either.
> Vegans eat NO meat, so asking them to eat or serve it can be an
> imposition.
Quite so. Or asking somebody to cook *anything* they can't or won't eat
(for whatever reason)... That's why I found the whole story a
little 'over the top'. I cannot believe that her family could be so
selfish. As they say, "When in Rome..."
>
> (I say "can be" because I was one of those vegans who didn't mind
> cooking meat for others, so long as no one expected me to eat it.)
Very kind of you. Dunno if I'd be quite as accommodating...
However, I seem to recall you mentioning a while back that you no longer
stick to a strict vegan diet i.e. that if you feel like eating a little
meat now and again you do? Or was that somebody else?
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Ms P
"ChattyCathy" <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:9vJTm.3330$ha3...@newsfe19.iad...
So what's the point in trolling an advice columnist? People write in and
ask these kinds of questions all the time and have for years and years.
Ms P
ChattyCathy
>
> "ChattyCathy" <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:9vJTm.3330$ha3...@newsfe19.iad...
>> I dunno, but put it this way - if that question and those comments
>> had originally been posted to Usenet, I'd have given it 8/10
>> for "trolling". Just my opinion, of course ;-)
>
> So what's the point in trolling an advice columnist? People write in
> and ask these kinds of questions all the time and have for years and
> years.
I got the impression it was an 'online discussion' from blake's OP -
which usually entails comments from users on the 'net - and which in
turn allows for 'almost instant' responses/comments (i.e. somewhat like
Usenet only a bit more 'kitsch' to look at)...
Besides, even in the good ole days when newspapers/magazines (made from
what used to be trees) had these "Dear Abbey" columns (or letters to
The Editor) people would often respond with their two cents worth in
the next publication thereof. Hence my use of the word "trolling" which
(the way I interpret it) means "writing/posting about something (often
controversial) just to stir things up".
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Serene Vannoy
> She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she eat
> as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not share
> these values"?
I became vegetarian as a child. I was a sixteen-year-old child, but still.
Serene
--
42 Magazine, celebrating life with meaning. Issue 2 is here!
http://42magazine.com
"I tend to come down on the side of autonomy. Once people are grown up,
I believe they have the right to go to hell in the handbasket of their
choosing." -- Pat Kight, on alt.polyamory
ChattyCathy
> ChattyCathy wrote:
>
>> She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she
>> eat as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not
>> share these values"?
>
> I became vegetarian as a child. I was a sixteen-year-old child, but
> still.
I'd hardly call you a 'child' at that age. Teenager, sure. Vast
difference, IMHO.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
James Silverton
>> These foods are some vegan choices I've taken to potlucks:
>>
>> Mashed potatoes with mushroom gravy
>> No one has ever said "Oh, no, this is VEGAN! I can't eat
>> THIS!!"
> Heh. Never even occurred to me that those foods would be
> specifically 'vegan'. I've eaten most of the foods on your
> list (and enjoyed them).
What is the recipe for vegan mushroom gravy, please?
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
ChattyCathy
> ChattyCathy wrote on Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:35:58 +0200:
>
>>> These foods are some vegan choices I've taken to potlucks:
>>>
>>> Mashed potatoes with mushroom gravy
>
>>> No one has ever said "Oh, no, this is VEGAN! I can't eat
>>> THIS!!"
>
>> Heh. Never even occurred to me that those foods would be
>> specifically 'vegan'. I've eaten most of the foods on your
>> list (and enjoyed them).
>
> What is the recipe for vegan mushroom gravy, please?
Actually, I have no idea <g>. I said 'most', not all; pretty sure Serene
could tell us, or...
<some googling>
...this sounds simple enough - hey, it contains mushrooms and garlic so
it must be good ;-)
http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/recipe-vegan-mushroom-gravy.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/yl4l577
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Ranee at Arabian Knits
ChattyCathy <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> She eats meat and poultry too - and yes she
> knows where it comes from - we live in a farming area, after all...
I actually sat through the entire movie Babe with my children
pointing out each and every food I could think of that came from each
animal as it appeared on screen. So, now we go to petting zoos and the
fair and look at all the cute little animals and my children say "Yum!
Bacon (lamb chops, steak, whatever)!" Likewise, when we go to the
butcher and they see half a steer on the table, they think it's
fascinating and delicious. They know we butcher some of our animals,
and discuss what we should raise for meat. They know that we have
friends who hunt, and that we are interested in learning and suggest
animals we should hunt. They know we fish and love to do it with us.
When I was a girl, my mom would get freshly slaughtered lamb. I went
with her, saw them slaughter and eviscerate and it didn't bother me
then. Doesn't bother me now. What does bother me is agribusiness and
factory farming, but we give very little money at all to those
enterprises and are working hard toward giving them none at all.
Jean B.
> The issue is not food (vegan vs non vegan) but control. And it sounds as
> though the carnivores are determined to have their way where the vegan
> is mostly holding the line.
>
> was a soap opera and I disinvited both families after #1 announced
> (after accepting) that for health reasons the meal had to be low fat,
> low fiber, low acid plus no pumpkin (and they wouldn't know until the
> very last moment if they could make it); #2 objected that I had invited
> #l, didn't want to share a meal with "those people", and dictated a
> whole other set of food restrictions.
>
> I was looking forward to whomping up a traditional feast and serving it
> to a circle of folks who would dig in with pleasure and gratitude. (At
> 83 yo how many more times will I have the opportunity?) I found a place
> at such a table elsewhere.........
> Liz
>
Wow. What an awful situation that was. I am glad you found a
solution to your liking.
--
Jean B.
Dave Smith
>
> When she is visiting other people, presumably she eats what she is
> able... her choice. She isn't asking (or demanding) that they change
> the way they cook just to accommodate her.
>
> Her family coming to visit her is demanding that she do things their
> way, even though they know it is against her beliefs.
>
> People imposing their will on another (dietary, religious, political,
> etc ) under duress is never a good thing.
Sorry, but I don't see it that way. The woman is talking about
traditional celebrations, and the traditional meals involve meat. Not
being a huge fan of turkey, I would gladly indulge in some other festive
roast. I could even go for some nice seafood instead of meat.... but not
vegan. Vegans do not eat meat, dairy, eggs, gelatin. They can't even
have Worchestershire sauce because it has anchovies in it. I don't mind
going meatless occasionally. I have eaten in vegetarian restaurants and
enjoyed the meals. But not Christmas, Thanksgiving or Easter where the
traditional meal is a roast. Nor for holidays with BBQs. I like steaks,
chops, chicken sausages,or burgers..... not soyburgers or soyweiners or
other imitation meat. I want real meat.
The problem is the rotation. They know she is a vegan. She does not want
to compromise her principals and serve meat, so she should not be
hosting a gathering that traditionally involves meat.
> Another point is that this person says that she has been a vegan for
> many, many years. Her family knows this. Seems to me they are the ones
> trying to make their point by not accepting her beliefs. I wonder how
> many of them have gone out of their way to accommodate her dietary
> wishes at family gatherings over the years?
Sorry, but I do not accommodate vegans. It is a diet of choice. I posted
here before about a great niece that showed up here unexpectedly for a
family Christmas function. She and her father showed up late, just as we
were about to sit down to dinner with 15 people. Her father forgot the
vegan food he was supposed to bring. My wife bent over backwards trying
to find something for her to eat, and she had to read all labels to
check ingredients. Less than two years later she sat across from me at
a buffet dinner with a plate loaded with roast beef, ham, bacon, fish etc.
> Like I said in an earlier post, there is room for compromise... assuming
> both sides are willing to give a little.
Sure.... stand firm.... refuse to allow meat in the house, but expect
that people will take a pass and probably exclude her in the future.
Ms P
Dear Prudie is Slates online columnist. But it's still the standard write
in for an anwer format.
Maybe you should go read some of her columns to get a feel for what people
ask advice on and then these things wouldn't seem so much like trolling to
you.
Ms P
Serene Vannoy
> Serene Vannoy wrote:
>
>> These foods are some vegan choices I've taken to potlucks:
>>
>> Wheatberry salad
>> Hummus and tabouli
>> Spaghetti marinara
>> Green salad with vinaigrette
>> Raspberry sorbet
>> Baked winter squash with walnut-and-wild-rice stuffing
>> Homemade sourdough bread
>> Watermelon boat filled with fruit salad
>> Mashed potatoes with mushroom gravy
>> Red beans and rice & mustard greens
>>
>> No one has ever said "Oh, no, this is VEGAN! I can't eat THIS!!"
>
> Heh. Never even occurred to me that those foods would be
> specifically 'vegan'. I've eaten most of the foods on your list (and
> enjoyed them).
Exactly my point. I had a friend once who was going to come to dinner,
and I asked my standard question: "Do you have any food allergies or
hates?" and he said "Just no vegan food!" OH, give me a break. Peanut
butter and jelly is vegan. Popcorn is vegan. Apple pie is vegan. Bean
burritos are vegan (without cheese, of course).
A million delicious, non-tofu, non-fake-meat things are vegan or can be
without anyone noticing. I wanted to say "Are you telling me if I serve
penne arrabiata, garlic bread from my own fresh bread, green salad,
roasted asparagus, and a dessert of fresh mangos with raspberry sorbet,
you're going to turn around and walk out?" Instead, I made some sort of
joke and filed this info away. When he had to cancel our dinner plans
for some other reason, I never bothered to ask him to reschedule.
>
>> The difference, as I see it, is that meat-eaters eat plenty of
>> non-meat foods, so adding some non-meat food to their day isn't
>> putting them out.
>
> We eat meat most days - but there are times when we just feel like
> having a "veggie-only" dinner, so we do. Hasn't killed us yet, either.
Hee!
>
>
>> Vegans eat NO meat, so asking them to eat or serve it can be an
>> imposition.
>
>
> Quite so. Or asking somebody to cook *anything* they can't or won't eat
> (for whatever reason)... That's why I found the whole story a
> little 'over the top'. I cannot believe that her family could be so
> selfish. As they say, "When in Rome..."
Well, in my family, people would know ahead of time that I was doing
things a certain way. The original post said "I have been vegan since I
was a child, and I am strongly against the killing of animals for food."
Now, I agree with Ranee that if the holidays came up and a family member
suddenly sprung it on everyone, that would be sort of rude, but this
person has spent decades as a vegan. This is not news to anyone, and
they had the opportunity when setting up the rotation to say "Okay,
let's all rotate dinner for the holidays, but let's leave Cousin Clara
out of the mix, because we're all kinda worried about veganism."
Families do this sort of thing all the time. My ex-wife's grandmother
doesn't host holiday dinners because her house is too small; we go to
one of the aunts' places. No big whoop.
>> (I say "can be" because I was one of those vegans who didn't mind
>> cooking meat for others, so long as no one expected me to eat it.)
>
> Very kind of you. Dunno if I'd be quite as accommodating...
>
Oh, it's not so much kindness as I've never been one of those
vegetarians (vegetarian for 20 years; vegan for the last 2 of those
years) who was grossed out by meat. I was raised on the stuff, and I
never was a person who found it repulsive. I was a vegetarian for other
reasons.
> However, I seem to recall you mentioning a while back that you no longer
> stick to a strict vegan diet i.e. that if you feel like eating a little
> meat now and again you do? Or was that somebody else?
Right, that was me. I am not a vegetarian any more. We eat meat around
here, and my mother couldn't be happier. ;-) She used to hate it that I
didn't eat her meat foods, though I was always quite polite about it.
Every time she comes to visit (a couple times a year), she brings a HUGE
cooler, full to BURSTING with meat -- this year, it was fifteen pounds
of Harris Ranch ground beef in three-pound chubs, six gigantic
porterhouse steaks, eleven pounds of pork shoulder roast cut into two
pieces, three pounds of costco bacon (damn, that stuff was good), and
who knows what else. I helped her pack the cooler, and she was
disappointed because we had to leave behind the ten pounds of chicken
legs, the half a pork leg, and the eight-pound ham. :-)
Ophelia
>
> Sure.... stand firm.... refuse to allow meat in the house, but expect
> that people will take a pass and probably exclude her in the future.
I agree with most things discused in this thread, but I have heard some
people complaining, that they will make vegan food for their guests, but the
guests will not cook meat for them.
Fair point.
ChattyCathy
>
> "ChattyCathy" <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
> news:i2PTm.26623$gd1....@newsfe05.iad...
>> Ms P wrote:
>>>
>>> "ChattyCathy" <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>>> news:9vJTm.3330$ha3...@newsfe19.iad...
>>
>>>> I dunno, but put it this way - if that question and those comments
>>>> had originally been posted to Usenet, I'd have given it 8/10
>>>> for "trolling". Just my opinion, of course ;-)
>>>
>>> So what's the point in trolling an advice columnist? People write
>>> in and ask these kinds of questions all the time and have for years
>>> and years.
>>
>> I got the impression it was an 'online discussion' from blake's OP -
>> which usually entails comments from users on the 'net - and which in
>> turn allows for 'almost instant' responses/comments (i.e. somewhat
>> like Usenet only a bit more 'kitsch' to look at)...
>>
>> Besides, even in the good ole days when newspapers/magazines (made
>> from what used to be trees) had these "Dear Abbey" columns (or
>> letters to The Editor) people would often respond with their two
>> cents worth in the next publication thereof. Hence my use of the word
>> "trolling" which (the way I interpret it) means "writing/posting
>> about something (often controversial) just to stir things up".
>
> Dear Prudie is Slates online columnist. But it's still the standard
> write in for an anwer format.
>
> Maybe you should go read some of her columns to get a feel for what
> people ask advice on and then these things wouldn't seem so much like
> trolling to you.
Ahem. Did you miss the "What did you think of this article/Join The
Fray: Our Reader Discussion Forum" section (with the "Post a message |
Read messages" links near the bottom of the page (below her responses)?
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Serene Vannoy
> ChattyCathy wrote on Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:35:58 +0200:
>
>>> These foods are some vegan choices I've taken to potlucks:
>>>
>>> Mashed potatoes with mushroom gravy
>
>>> No one has ever said "Oh, no, this is VEGAN! I can't eat
>>> THIS!!"
>
>> Heh. Never even occurred to me that those foods would be
>> specifically 'vegan'. I've eaten most of the foods on your
>> list (and enjoyed them).
>
> What is the recipe for vegan mushroom gravy, please?
It's very similar to the recipe for the very best vegan gravy in the
world, which is Punk Rock Chickpea Gravy, so I'm going to give you both
recipes, or rather, my adaptation (simplification, really) of Isa
Chandra Moskowitz's Punk Rock Chickpea Gravy, which we just call
chickpea gravy around here, and my mushroom gravy, which I made by
following her method and substituting what I wanted in my gravy.
Chickpea Gravy
1/4 cup all purpose flour
2 cups water
1 tablespoon extra-virgin olive oil
1 medium sized onion, quartered and thinly sliced
3 cloves garlic,minced
2 cups cooked chickpeas, drained, or 1 (16 ounce) can, drained
and rinsed.
1 tsp no-salt seasoning (I use Costco's Kirkland Organic No-Salt
Blend; Isa's recipe uses a mix of spices and herbs; you can find the
list here: http://www.recipezaar.com/Punkrock-Chickpea-Gravy-304633)
3 tablespoons soy sauce
juice of 1 lemon
1/4 cup nutritional yeast, optional, but it does make people
totally surprised that the gravy is vegan
Directions
Mix the flour with 2 cups of water until the flour is mostly dissolved.
Heat a large skillet (preferably cast iron) over medium heat. Add the
oil and onions; cook for about 7-8 minutes, stirring occasionally, until
the onions are browned. Add the garlic and cook for 2 minutes more. Add
the chickpeas; use a potato masher to mash them -- you don't want to
mash them to paste, just make sure each one is broken up although if
there are a few whole ones left, that's fine.
Add the seasoning, soy sauce and lemon juice. Scrape the bottom of the
pan to loosen any browned bits of onion.
Lower heat and pour the flour mixture into the pan. Stir constantly
until a thick gravy forms. Stir in nutritional yeast. If it looks too
thick or pasty, add more water and mix well. It may look like it doesn't
want any more water added to it, but just keep mixing and it will loosen
up. Keep warm until ready to serve.
Number of Servings: 4 really generous servings, or 8 smaller ones
Serene's Vegan Mushroom Gravy
1/4 cup all purpose flour
2 cups water
1 tablespoon extra-virgin olive oil
1 medium sized onion, quartered and thinly sliced
3 cloves garlic,minced
1-2 pounds mushrooms, cleaned and sliced (I'm guessing on the
quantity of mushrooms; I usually use however many I happen to have
around -- there's no such thing as too many mushrooms to me)
1 tsp. of whatever herbs/spices strike my fancy (or sometimes
just a teaspoon of costco's no-salt blend)
3 tablespoons soy sauce
juice of 1 lemon
1 capful Kitchen Bouquet, optional
1 tsp. vegan worcestershire sauce, optional
1/4 cup nutritional yeast, optional -- both ways are good; I
think I slightly prefer this gravy without the yeast
Directions
Mix the flour with 2 cups of water until the flour is mostly dissolved.
Heat a large skillet (preferably cast iron) over medium heat. Add the
oil and onions; cook for about 7-8 minutes, stirring occasionally, until
the onions are browned. Add the garlic and cook for 2 minutes more. Add
the mushrooms. Continue cooking on medium heat until the mushrooms have
given up most of their liquid.
Add the seasoning, soy sauce and lemon juice. Scrape the bottom of the
pan to loosen any browned bits of onion/mushroom.
Lower heat and pour the flour mixture into the pan. Stir constantly
until a thick gravy forms. Stir in the remaining ingredients. If it
looks too thick or pasty, add more water and mix well. It may look like
it doesn't want any more water added to it, but just keep mixing and it
will loosen up. Keep warm until ready to serve.
Number of Servings: 4 really generous servings, or 8 smaller ones
Dan Abel
sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:
I'll bet that neither this story nor the one on the US$40 turkey dinner
was that odd before the editor got to it.
When I was a kid, I used to read "Can This Marriage Be Saved". I think
it appeared in my mom's women's magazine. It was the same story,
written by both parties. They seemed like two entirely different
stories. I just couldn't understand it. I suspect professional
writer(s) and a vicious editor did the trick.
--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
da...@sonic.net
Serene Vannoy
I think it would be a fair point IF meat-eaters never ate vegan food.
Serene
Bob Terwilliger
> I agree with most things discused in this thread, but I have heard some
> people complaining, that they will make vegan food for their guests, but
> the guests will not cook meat for them.
>
> Fair point.
I don't think it's a fair point. Omnivores are not violently opposed to
vegan food on MORAL grounds. They may find the vegan diet silly, but it's
not abhorrent. The converse is not true, which invalidates the point you
were trying to make.
Bob
sf
>I'll bet that neither this story nor the one on the US$40 turkey dinner
>was that odd before the editor got to it.
You're probably right. Should we tar and feather blake now or later?
Steve Pope
>"ChattyCathy" <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
>> sf wrote:
>>> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 09:40:22 +0200, ChattyCathy
>>>>She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she
>>>>eat as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not
>>>>share these values"?
>>> Her idea of child may be different too. Some people consider
>>> teenagers children.
>> I dunno, but put it this way - if that question and those comments had
>> originally been posted to Usenet, I'd have given it 8/10
>> for "trolling". Just my opinion, of course ;-)
>So what's the point in trolling an advice columnist? People write in and
>ask these kinds of questions all the time and have for years and years.
Yeah, it's not a troll.
I agree veganism is unlikely in a young child from a non-vegan
family, but it's very plausible a person might turn vegetarian
at age 6 and vegan by age 12, which would make the questioner's
self-description entirely accurate.
Steve
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Dave Smith <adavid...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Sorry, but I don't see it that way. The woman is talking about
> traditional celebrations, and the traditional meals involve meat. Not
> being a huge fan of turkey, I would gladly indulge in some other festive
> roast. I could even go for some nice seafood instead of meat.... but not
> vegan. Vegans do not eat meat, dairy, eggs, gelatin. They can't even
> have Worchestershire sauce because it has anchovies in it. I don't mind
> going meatless occasionally. I have eaten in vegetarian restaurants and
> enjoyed the meals. But not Christmas, Thanksgiving or Easter where the
> traditional meal is a roast. Nor for holidays with BBQs. I like steaks,
> chops, chicken sausages,or burgers..... not soyburgers or soyweiners or
> other imitation meat. I want real meat.
That's exactly the issue for me. If it were not a holiday, I don't
think it would be as big a deal. She is insisting on imposing her
beliefs and world view on others in a very personal way because it is a
holiday. I'm sorry, but beans and rice (with no bacon, lard, cheese,
sour cream, etc) for Christmas Day (without the tamales and roast pork
and all the other things that accompany it in the Mexican tradition), is
not going to seem festive to most people. Neither is a meal that is
entirely made up of what people see as side dishes. A meal of beans and
rice, tabbouleh, roasted brussels sprouts, baked squash, cranberry
sauce, mashed potatoes with neither butter and cream nor cooked in
broth, with no real gravy to pour on it, a green salad and a dessert of
sorbet is not going to sing of holiday spirit.
If she wants to change their mind about her diet, or show respect to
her, she ought to show some respect for the family's traditions as well,
by permitting others to bring their traditional food. Even the folks
who want to bring that hideous candied yam dish with marshmallows
wouldn't be able to because of the butter and marshmallows. You can't
have that nasty green bean casserole, which so many people find
traditional and would miss.
Although you can have hors d'oeuvres out that do not include deviled
eggs (I don't even like them, but the family does), creamy dips, a
cheese tray, cheese ball, smoked salmon, goat cheese tortas, baked brie,
etc, few people are going to immediately think Thanksgiving or Christmas
when they see hummus, baba ghanooj, pita bread, crudites (with no creamy
dip), salsa and chips, pickles and olives. They just aren't. Even if
those foods are spectacular. Sure you can make a tofu dip that tastes
pretty good and will fool most people, but that means you have to resort
to soy protein yet again. Yes, you can make a chocolate mousse that
uses tofu instead of eggs, but again, you have to supplement with soy
protein, because just using readily available vegetables, grains,
legumes and nuts won't work. People want their pumpkin pies, butter,
cheese, cream, milk, honey, eggs and, heaven help us, their jello and
marshmallows. This is how they've always done it and their grandmother
did it and their great grandmother. Now this lady wishes to force them
to change all of that on a holiday. Poor form.
In our family, for instance, we fast from meat, do not eat sweets or
much in the way of cream and butter before Easter, and fast in a less
stringent manner before Christmas. We break the fast with those sorts
of foods. For Easter, we had a whole blessing on the lamb, for the
obvious symbolism, the eggs (from the Passover symbolism), olive oil,
wine and bread. This was part of the Paschal feast for us. Why should
we be forced to continue our fast because someone won't let us bring a
basket of eggs that we made? If someone told us we couldn't bring any
of those things to their meal, we wouldn't go. We do not force any of
the vegetarians in our church and family to eat the lamb, nor to we try
to trick them into it by hiding it in foods we think they would eat.
There is plenty there that is lacking meat, plenty that is even vegan
and lots that is high in protein that isn't meat or dairy or egg based.
Even more if we know that there are to be vegetarians or vegans in our
midst.
The problem with this, I think, is that meat, seafood, dairy and eggs
form the basis of most people's diets, it's not like it is one
ingredient or a few dishes (like not eating pork or shellfish if we ate
with a family who kept Kosher).
> The problem is the rotation. They know she is a vegan. She does not want
> to compromise her principals and serve meat, so she should not be
> hosting a gathering that traditionally involves meat.
This is what I don't understand, why didn't she either bring up the
fact that she would only host if it were a vegan meal when this was
first instituted. I cannot tell if they all understood she was vegan or
not, but I don't know why she was included in the rotation without
discussing this.
ChattyCathy
Heh.
--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy
Steve Pope
>Steve Pope wrote:
>> ChattyCathy <cath...@mailinator.com> wrote:
>>>I just find the whole story a tad unbelievable. [Most people seem to
>>>think the question/comments came from a woman, so I'll follow suit...]
>>>She stated "I have been vegan since I was a child" - so what did she
>>>eat as a child living at home if the rest of her family "does not
>>>share these values"?
>> Datapoint, I have a partner (approximately my age) who is vegetarian,
>> and
>> has been so since she was a child. The sequence of events was that
>> once she was old enough to realize that that meat came from animals
>> (age 5 or 6), she stopped eating it -- end of story.
>Yabut, there is a big difference between being a vegetarian and a vegan
True, but I can readily see an early-childhood vegetarian proceeding
to veganiam by late childhood.
Really, these people are not total freaks. They actually exist in large
numbers.
>(and that's what we're talking about here) - there's a whole bunch of
>stuff that vegetarians will eat that vegans won't. But yes, if a 5 year
>old refuses to eat any meat/poultry put on his/her plate for say,
>several months, I'm sure (most) parents will 'get the picture'
>eventually. (Well, they should).
I'm not sure about most, but many certainly.
In the case of my friend, her family is Jewish and living in an
urban area and it turns out that there are many vegetarians
among this population, most all of them ovo-lactoids. So
it was not a jarring transition for the family. Her mother
eventually became vegetarian as well.
Steve
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
> I think it would be a fair point IF meat-eaters never ate vegan food.
You are making a false comparison. It is rare, very rare, for an
entire dinner to be vegan. Even more so when it is a holiday meal.
Now, were it a common thing for Thanksgiving to be vegetarian or vegan,
it would be simply one of an array of options. It is not. It is not
common for people who do not plan for meatless meals (as we do) to eat
any meal that is completely vegetarian, let alone vegan. Even your
comment about oatmeal in another post wouldn't stand up to that, as most
people put some milk or cream or butter on it. Most people don't eat
popcorn for dinner, buttered or not. Most people don't eat a watermelon
for lunch.
Omelet
<arabianknits-C737...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But it's her choice!
>
> Oh, absolutely, and she is free to make it. That doesn't make it a
> good choice, nor should she be able to force it on her guests when it is
> a choice.
Um, guests are guests.
If her family has that much of an objection to a purely vegan meal, then
they should allow her to bow out of the rotation rather than being held
up to ridicule for her lifestyle choice.
It may not be a good choice (and I personally don't believe that a
purely vegan diet is terribly healthy or sustainable) but I do believe
in that _freedom_ of choice!
You say she should not force her lifestyle on her guests? Well, what
about HER rights? Why should her "guests" force _their_ lifestyle on her?
That does not seem fair either!
Frankly, when I'm seriously low carbing, I get sick to death of ANY meat
sometimes and would almost kill for a measly baked potato!
I love veggies as much as I love meat and have many times made what I
consider to be a decent meal from "rabbit food".
It's quite easy to make Vegan festive! ;-d
--
Peace! Om
"Human nature seems to be to control other people until they put their foot down."
--Steve Rothstein
Web Albums: <http://picasaweb.google.com/OMPOmelet>
recfood...@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: recfoodrecip...@yahoogroups.com
Omelet
sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:44:58 -0600, Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><arabianknits-F0A6...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
> > Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I mean, who wants all that vegetable
> >> shortening, margarine, soy protein, fake meats, etc?
> >
> >Um, who says vegan dishes have to contain that garbage?
> >I may be a dedicated carnivore but I'm perfectly capable of cooking some
> >totally vegan dishes without using margarine, soy protein and other fake
> >foods. ;-)
> >
> >I prepare and eat as much veggie stuff as I do meat, and my family
> >members thing it tastes pretty good!
>
> Tofu items are not crap. They can be very tasty.
Check Soy Kaas cheese sometime. It actually melts like real cheese. I
used to use a lot of it when I was on a quest for a very low fat diet.
<g>
I know many people that just love Soy milk products...
Omelet
<arabianknits-24C5...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alcohol is not generally considered a necessity as food is, nor is it
> often served as a main dish. At least not in my circles. :-)
Alcohol is not a major food group???
<Shocked look>
You sure you are posting to the right group?
;-) ;-) ;-)
Omelet
"Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:
> > I would provide a turkey and provide enough vegan things the turkey ends
> > up being a side dish. Heck you might get a couple converts if the vegan
> > things are yummy enough.
>
> Let me draw a parallel: Suppose you were strongly opposed to smoking, and
> the rest of your family thought you were unreasonable not to allow smoking
> in your house. Would you allow them all to light up just because you were
> the hostess?
>
> Bob
Good one Bob! And relevant. ;-)
James Silverton
> James Silverton wrote:
).
>>
>> What is the recipe for vegan mushroom gravy, please?
> Chickpea Gravy
generous servings, or 8 smaller ones
> Serene's Vegan Mushroom Gravy
Thanks, I like the idea of the chick pea concoction and I'll have to
try it.
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
> Apple pie is vegan.
Not in my house. The crust is made with butter, and we put pats of
butter over the fruit filling. We don't eat vegetable shortening of our
own volition, because we believe it to be bad for our health. Neither
do we eat or cook with margarine. We are more likely to have a lard
crust than a shortening crust. I wouldn't assume that things like that
are traditionally vegan for most people.
> A million delicious, non-tofu, non-fake-meat things are vegan or can be
> without anyone noticing.
I'd agree with you if you said vegetarian, but the absence of all
animal products (dairy, egg, honey, gelatin and meat) is noticeable to
my family, at least. We wouldn't make a big deal of it if presented
with it, but it would be noticeable.
Our children are young and need the fat and protein. We give them
milk with just about every meal. Even our vegetarian meals include
dairy, egg, honey, things that a vegan would not eat.
> I wanted to say "Are you telling me if I serve
> penne arrabiata, garlic bread from my own fresh bread, green salad,
> roasted asparagus, and a dessert of fresh mangos with raspberry sorbet,
> you're going to turn around and walk out?"
And in our house, garlic bread is most commonly made with butter,
secondarily with butter and olive oil mixed. We'd also likely sprinkle
the pasta with parmesan. I'm not saying there is anything wrong in
doing it another way, I'm just saying most people don't make those
things vegan. We usually have vinaigrette type dressings on our salads,
but many people eat ranch or bleu cheese type dressings more frequently.
Again, I wouldn't assume that if you presented that menu to an omnivore
he would make it vegan.
Look, I go out of my way to try to make a meal that pleases people's
palates, health restrictions, religious obligations and weird food
phobias. When our bishop and his wife came to dinner we discovered
beforehand that his wife didn't like shellfish. He said she was a good
clergy wife and would eat whatever was put in front of her without
complaint or comment, but that she really didn't like it. So, I changed
our menu of mussels with white wine and garlic to a cashew and bean stew
(it was vegan! But the cheeses and breads and butter that went along
with it were not). My mother, who is only quasi-Muslim, in that she
only identifies as a Muslim when she wants to feel put upon or to
inconvenience others (for instance, she doesn't fast for Ramadan, but if
she is coming to our house for Thanksgiving and it happens to be
Ramadan, she insists on fasting, even though her health and the travel
would exempt her, she drinks, doesn't believe in God, doesn't do the
prayers, doesn't follow the religious teachings), but we make sure we do
not serve as a main dish pork (or make two, and make sure she knows
which is which), pour her a glass of wine and schedule our meals around
her time to break the fast. We have a few vegetarians in our parish, we
always plan feasts and potlucks to include tons of foods they can eat.
On the very rare occasion (I think once) that I've had to cook for a
vegan, I did so without compromising my desire not to rely on soy or use
fake fats.
It is bothersome to me that someone can't even allow others to bring
foods that don't go along with her diet (use paper plates and foil pans
if you don't want to contaminate your home) on a holiday.
Here is a more humorous look at it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E
Serene Vannoy
> Serene wrote on Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:25:23 -0800:
>
>> James Silverton wrote:
> ).
>>>
>>> What is the recipe for vegan mushroom gravy, please?
>
>> Chickpea Gravy
>
> generous servings, or 8 smaller ones
>
>> Serene's Vegan Mushroom Gravy
>
> Thanks, I like the idea of the chick pea concoction and I'll have to
> try it.
>
It's really really good. My ex-wife, a devoted meat-eater, was genuinely
skeptical when I told her it was vegan. She said, "I could go vegetarian
if I knew I could have seitan and chickpea gravy all the time."
Serene
Omelet
Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
> Ophelia wrote:
> > Dave Smith wrote:
> >> Sure.... stand firm.... refuse to allow meat in the house, but expect
> >> that people will take a pass and probably exclude her in the future.
> >
> > I agree with most things discused in this thread, but I have heard some
> > people complaining, that they will make vegan food for their guests, but
> > the
> > guests will not cook meat for them.
> >
> > Fair point.
>
> I think it would be a fair point IF meat-eaters never ate vegan food.
>
> Serene
I have to agree with Serene on this one. ;-) How many non-vegans do
you know that live _only_ on meat?
I'm a dedicated carnivore, and I adore veggie sides.
Omelet
sf <s...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:28:12 -0800, Dan Abel <da...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >I'll bet that neither this story nor the one on the US$40 turkey dinner
> >was that odd before the editor got to it.
>
> You're probably right. Should we tar and feather blake now or later?
Howabout now _and_ later? <eg>
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know many people that just love Soy milk products...
They just taste like sugar to me.
Omelet
<arabianknits-962F...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A meal of beans and
> rice, tabbouleh, roasted brussels sprouts, baked squash, cranberry
> sauce, mashed potatoes with neither butter and cream nor cooked in
> broth, with no real gravy to pour on it, a green salad and a dessert of
> sorbet is not going to sing of holiday spirit.
Sorry luv, but that sounds fabulous and festive to me. :-)
You are welcome to cook a totally Vegan holiday meal for me and dad
ANYtime, and I'll be delighted to reciprocate with any meat you'd like!
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <arabianknits-24C5...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
> Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Alcohol is not generally considered a necessity as food is, nor is it
> > often served as a main dish. At least not in my circles. :-)
>
> Alcohol is not a major food group???
Well, actually, I consider the five food groups to be: Fat, sugar,
salt, caffeine and alcohol, so maybe no booze is a bigger deal than I
said earlier. ;-)
> <Shocked look>
>
> You sure you are posting to the right group?
I did say not _generally_ considered a necessity.
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <009b4110$0$17022$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>,
> "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:
>
> > > I would provide a turkey and provide enough vegan things the turkey ends
> > > up being a side dish. Heck you might get a couple converts if the vegan
> > > things are yummy enough.
> >
> > Let me draw a parallel: Suppose you were strongly opposed to smoking, and
> > the rest of your family thought you were unreasonable not to allow smoking
> > in your house. Would you allow them all to light up just because you were
> > the hostess?
> >
> > Bob
>
> Good one Bob! And relevant. ;-)
Except smoking produces, get this, smoke. A piece of cheese will not
attack you from the plate.
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It may not be a good choice (and I personally don't believe that a
> purely vegan diet is terribly healthy or sustainable) but I do believe
> in that _freedom_ of choice!
>
> You say she should not force her lifestyle on her guests? Well, what
> about HER rights? Why should her "guests" force _their_ lifestyle on her?
>
> That does not seem fair either!
So then, whose choice trumps I guess is the real question. I would
say the choice of the group, with the caveat that she not have to buy,
prepare or eat it.
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article
> <arabianknits-962F...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
> Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > A meal of beans and
> > rice, tabbouleh, roasted brussels sprouts, baked squash, cranberry
> > sauce, mashed potatoes with neither butter and cream nor cooked in
> > broth, with no real gravy to pour on it, a green salad and a dessert of
> > sorbet is not going to sing of holiday spirit.
>
> Sorry luv, but that sounds fabulous and festive to me. :-)
Thanksgivingy? Christmassy?
Perhaps this is the mistake we are making. Maybe she is hosting a
Saturnalia festival. In which case, serve whatever you want.
> You are welcome to cook a totally Vegan holiday meal for me and dad
> ANYtime, and I'll be delighted to reciprocate with any meat you'd like!
Deal. :-)
I do not like that a one person (maybe two, her fiance) minority gets
to trump an entire family's, culture's and nation's traditions. Who is
forcing her to buy, cook and eat animal products? It is that which
bothers me the most.
Serene Vannoy
> In article <ompomelet-BDB30...@news-wc.giganews.com>,
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It may not be a good choice (and I personally don't believe that a
>> purely vegan diet is terribly healthy or sustainable) but I do believe
>> in that _freedom_ of choice!
>>
>> You say she should not force her lifestyle on her guests? Well, what
>> about HER rights? Why should her "guests" force _their_ lifestyle on her?
>>
>> That does not seem fair either!
>
> So then, whose choice trumps I guess is the real question. I would
> say the choice of the group, with the caveat that she not have to buy,
> prepare or eat it.
I say it's the host's choice. They each get their choice when it's their
turn, no?
Omelet
<arabianknits-BBC4...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Apple pie is vegan.
>
> Not in my house. The crust is made with butter, and we put pats of
> butter over the fruit filling. We don't eat vegetable shortening of our
> own volition, because we believe it to be bad for our health. Neither
> do we eat or cook with margarine. We are more likely to have a lard
> crust than a shortening crust. I wouldn't assume that things like that
> are traditionally vegan for most people.
Try a Schmalz crust sometime if you can.
Mom used to swear by them and I recall them with great fondness!
Serene Vannoy
> Try a Schmalz crust sometime if you can.
> Mom used to swear by them and I recall them with great fondness!
Ooh, I haven't tried that, and I almost always have schmaltz around.
Thanks!
Ran�e at Arabian Knits
Serene Vannoy <ser...@serenepages.org> wrote:
> Ran�e at Arabian Knits wrote:
> > In article <ompomelet-BDB30...@news-wc.giganews.com>,
> > Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> It may not be a good choice (and I personally don't believe that a
> >> purely vegan diet is terribly healthy or sustainable) but I do believe
> >> in that _freedom_ of choice!
> >>
> >> You say she should not force her lifestyle on her guests? Well, what
> >> about HER rights? Why should her "guests" force _their_ lifestyle on her?
> >>
> >> That does not seem fair either!
> >
> > So then, whose choice trumps I guess is the real question. I would
> > say the choice of the group, with the caveat that she not have to buy,
> > prepare or eat it.
>
> I say it's the host's choice. They each get their choice when it's their
> turn, no?
This is not the same as a regular dinner party, however, it is a
family event for a holiday with its own traditions. That makes a big
difference, IMO. She is making her choice of diet, which is in the
extreme minority, dictate the rest of the family's holiday.
Let me illustrate with two examples:
Aside from our various fasts for religious reasons, we do not buy
products from a great many companies for various other reasons. We
don't buy from Cargill, Monsanto, Conagra, Tyson, Procter and Gamble,
Johnson and Johnson, among others. We only buy raw or organic and
pastured dairy products. We only buy pastured beef and pork, and rarely
do we buy other than that in our poultry. We only buy wild fish. Our
eggs are from pastured, free range chickens. We buy locally raised or
organic produce. We eat predominately whole grains and don't buy canned
foods/packaged foods. We don't eat refined sugars on a regular basis
and our honey is raw honey. We don't eat soy (with the exception of soy
sauce), nor do we eat flax seed because we do not like their overuse nor
the false estrogen effects they have.
Now, we are hosting a holiday. Any holiday. Pick your favorite.
Would it be an equally valid choice to insist that everyone coming to
our home not only eat what we serve, but also only buy the kinds of
products and foods to share that we approved of?
My MIL brings her flax seed and sprinkles it on ice cream. We
wouldn't dream of telling her not to do so. My FIL treats the children
with ice cream that I don't even think is made with dairy. We figure it
is a rare occasion, so we don't worry about it. My MIL eats that fakey
turkey bacon, in our home no less. My mother has fat phobias and brings
her "healthy" margarine spreads to our home. We've had cousins bring
that Stove Top dressing and canned cranberries to our home for
Thanksgiving. Did we eat them? No. Did we bar the door to those
products? No. Did we tell them what we thought of their eating habits?
No, well we did tease my MIL about the flax seed on her ice cream.
Second example:
We are a family that is rather observant in our religious practice.
Christmas is about the Incarnation. We also come from a liturgical
tradition. We honor the saints in our home. We don't do Santa. We
celebrate Saint Nicholas on December 6th. We also taught our children
not to spoil it for others and we don't freak out if someone asks them
what Santa brought them or if they are going to ask Santa for something.
We even have a stuffed Santa chair that someone gave us and a painting
of Santa feeding the geese near my childhood home. Should we insist
that all santa images, mention of him, etc should be banned from our
home?
My mother is all about the Santa celebration, so when she came to
Christmas at our house, she asked if Santa brought our eldest son his
bicycle. His response was priceless, he just said "Nooooo." as though
he wondered about how his grandmother could believe in an imaginary
character. Should we have admonished her that she was undermining our
religious teaching with our son?
Omelet
<arabianknits-2983...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <ompomelet-5ACB5...@news-wc.giganews.com>,
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I know many people that just love Soy milk products...
>
> They just taste like sugar to me.
>
> Regards,
> Ranee
I don't care for them either hon', but that was not my point. <g>
There is obviously a good market for them, or they'd not be so commonly
for sale?
I've been posting here (on this list) since 1996.
If I've learned nothing else, it's to respect the personal tastes of
others!
I grew up with a semi-abusive parent (dad) that insisted that if we did
not like what he liked, we were in the wrong! And he sometimes
physically enforced his tastes on us, even if we threw it up in the
toilet later!
One, that enforced on me to NEVER EVER force my personal tastes on a
child and (once I re-learned some self-confidence and self-esteem) to
never feel guilty if I hated something someone else loved.
I still hate:
Bell peppers
Cilantro
Raw Onions (love them well cooked!)
Brussels sprouts
Any hard greens such as Kale, Collards and Mustard greens
Beet roots! I love beet greens but hate hate hate beets.
Carrot and turnip mashed mix (altho' I'm reconsidering that one at 47
years of age);
and a few other items I cannot think of at the moment.
And I refuse to feel guilty about it anymore. ;-)
Dad was raised during the depression where any attitude of "I don't like
this food" was not acceptable. Well, that's just BS. I don't have to
live that way and I won't!
Even when I negotiate with picky guests over the planned menu (and yes,
I have done that and still will and do my best not to make _them_ feel
guilty), I'll plan a negotiated menu based on their preferences and mine!
I will walk a middle ground and rejoice in doing so. I'm confident
enough in myself as a GOOD cook where I can cook a variety of foods and
do it well! For mine and my guests tastes...
But it is MY house and said house guests will finish the menu
negotiations to MY tastes, which I consider to be generous as I'm still
a bit adventurous with food! I'll be happy to re-post the pics of the
last set of holiday dinner negotiations with some special house guests.
There is a LOT of food to choose from. Any MATURE group of humans should
be able to get together and decide what they will all enjoy.
Omelet
<arabianknits-B66C...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <ompomelet-0A146...@news-wc.giganews.com>,
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <arabianknits-24C5...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
> > Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Alcohol is not generally considered a necessity as food is, nor is it
> > > often served as a main dish. At least not in my circles. :-)
> >
> > Alcohol is not a major food group???
>
> Well, actually, I consider the five food groups to be: Fat, sugar,
> salt, caffeine and alcohol, so maybe no booze is a bigger deal than I
> said earlier. ;-)
<laughs> Thanks!
>
> > <Shocked look>
> >
> > You sure you are posting to the right group?
;-D
>
> I did say not _generally_ considered a necessity.
>
> Regards,
> Ranee @ Arabian Knits
>
> "She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13
>
> http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/
Omelet
<arabianknits-6409...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <ompomelet-3A2DE...@news-wc.giganews.com>,
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <009b4110$0$17022$c3e...@news.astraweb.com>,
> > "Bob Terwilliger" <virtualgoth@die_spammer.biz> wrote:
> >
> > > > I would provide a turkey and provide enough vegan things the turkey
> > > > ends
> > > > up being a side dish. Heck you might get a couple converts if the
> > > > vegan
> > > > things are yummy enough.
> > >
> > > Let me draw a parallel: Suppose you were strongly opposed to smoking, and
> > > the rest of your family thought you were unreasonable not to allow
> > > smoking
> > > in your house. Would you allow them all to light up just because you were
> > > the hostess?
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> > Good one Bob! And relevant. ;-)
>
> Except smoking produces, get this, smoke. A piece of cheese will not
> attack you from the plate.
Depends on how well aged it is!
Om -> Ducking and RUNNING!!!
;-)
>
> Regards,
> Ranee @ Arabian Knits
>
> "She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13
>
> http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/
Omelet
<arabianknits-2C90...@news.rainierconnect.com>,
Ran�e at Arabian Knits <arabia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <ompomelet-BDB30...@news-wc.giganews.com>,
> Omelet <ompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It may not be a good choice (and I personally don't believe that a
> > purely vegan diet is terribly healthy or sustainable) but I do believe
> > in that _freedom_ of choice!
> >
> > You say she should not force her lifestyle on her guests? Well, what
> > about HER rights? Why should her "guests" force _their_ lifestyle on her?
> >
> > That does not seem fair either!
>
> So then, whose choice trumps I guess is the real question.
Absolutely.
> I would
> say the choice of the group, with the caveat that she not have to buy,
> prepare or eat it.
Oof. So the good of the many outweighs the good of the few?
Or the one?
Have you learned no lessons from Star Trek hon'?
:-)
But yeah, if they want to make it into a potluck...
And I DO love potlucks!
>
> Regards,
> Ranee @ Arabian Knits
>
> "She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands." Prov 31:13
>
> http://arabianknits.blogspot.com/