our trainer on a Gypsy at the Horse Expo
cindi
Jane Saranac
"cindi" <alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:050e5002-1b6e-4d02...@u16g2000pru.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc940T2jMmM
Hi Cindi,
Just clicked and got the message "this video is private"....
>
cindi
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc940T2jMmM
>
> Hi Cindi,
> Just clicked and got the message "this video is private"....
Should be fixed, thanks. :-)
cindi
Laurel Reddick
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc940T2jMmM
What are your comments on the ride Cindi? I found the rider to be
pulling the horse into frame. In no sense was the horse soft and
collected. Lots of grand standing, but little in the way of true
horsemanship. Sorry to be negative, but I found it off putting.
Laurel
betsey
> On Thu, 2 Jul 2009 17:01:30 -0700 (PDT), cindi
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc940T2jMmM
>
> What are your comments on the ride Cindi? I found the rider to be
> pulling the horse into frame. In no sense was the horse soft and
> collected. Lots of grand standing, but little in the way of true
> horsemanship. Sorry to be negative, but I found it off putting.
> Laurel
the you tube said "young" gypsy vanner, so i would not expect to see
collected. I will say, uhm....
i like a different kind of horse and a different kind of rider.
betsey
Laurel Reddick
wrote:
I agree the horse was young, and that was what perturbed me i.e.
watching a cowboy trying to pull him into frame and hot dogging around
with him. My good friends are trainers who are cowboys, but they
would never do that with a young horse. I hate watching that kind of
stuff.
Laurel
cindi
> I agree the horse was young, and that was what perturbed me i.e.
> watching a cowboy trying to pull him into frame and hot dogging around
> with him. My good friends are trainers who are cowboys, but they
> would never do that with a young horse. I hate watching that kind of
> stuff.
I'm mixed. I watched him ride that horse a lot at home and I watch him
ride others. He doesn't pull them into a frame - he picks up on their
face and holds until they give, and then he gives a release, and then
he asks again. It has nothing to do with collection or a frame and
everything to do with being soft and responsive in the face and in
having a positionable nose/poll/neck/shoulder. VERY standard in
western/cowhorse training, despite what people will proclaim. He's
doing stuff with his legs too but that's never as obvious. Person
applies pressure, horse gives to the pressure, human gives a release,
etc etc etc.
I really think more people should watch colt starting - Parelli even,
and Clinton Anderson, and Dennis Reis, Craig Cameron, Richard Winters,
Al Dunning, even John Lyons, etc. All those western started colts are
ridden like that, and over time it's refined so that it's not as
obvious to onlookers. You can see the same thing in the videos I
posted of him riding any of my horses, especially the young ones. I
don't know a single western trainer who does not train like that, and
most English riders I know, even those who have very nice winning
warmbloods and Andalusians, use guys just like these to start their
colts.
When I ride I'm not as picky but I don't ride youngsters. I do expect
them to give to the pressure if I pick up on them, and to
appropriately position whatever body part I'm asking for them to
position, but I don't spend as much time asking for that sort of thing
as a pro colt starter does. Of course I'm riding horses who've
already been trained to do it nicely when asked, and to not get all
wigged out of position in between being asked, so I am riding on the
coattails of these other trainers, basically.
I like that he's not rough. I've seen it done very roughly, a lot.
He simply asks and then builds on it. He has a kinder set of hands
than I've seen Clinton Anderson demonstrate on occasion. And like
Clinton or not, he winds up with some nice horses.
I don't know how many of you here have watched the colt starting
videos or audited the colt starting clinics - I've watched a ton. And
I catch myself saying not to do certain things that they all do,
things that turn out nicely - I even said the same thing to Eileen
here about Rain, a lot of us did. But the answer for some horse is
not to just let them go around star gazing and wait for them to begin
to assume a more appropriate position. But the fine line is getting
them softer in the face without causing resistance. It can be done
well or it can be done badly, like anything else.
Clinton Anderson explains that he's not asking for a headset. He's
asking for the horse to position his body in response to a cue that's
applied and to not resist the cue - to give. Especially now that I'm
all Baucherized, I don't mind it as much at all anymore - fixing the
balance and the position before you let them go charging around, and
not just hoping that charging around will create balance. Relaxing
the jaw first. Any reiner you see was trained just like my trainer
trains - maybe with more tact, most likely with less. So I just can't
see that much bad about it, in principle.
Now as to this specific video, this horse is not built to cross over
in front in a turnaround or to do a large fast circle like a reiner.
So it did look clunky. Compared to the other gypsies, this one was
very talented. I thought it was cute to show that she was OK with all
that, pretty much. I know the owner was pleased. I'm disturbed the
horse is only TWO. But my two two year olds just came home and they
can do all that but nicely, like a baby reiner (not the laying down
parts, just the reining parts.) They have never done a gallop like
that, but neither had she - that was her first time, just for the
show. I don't necessarily have a problem with a full out gallop with
a horse in her third or fourth month of training - it has to happen
sometime, so they don't terrify themselves the first time it does
happen in an unauthorized fashion... This horse went back to her owner
after that, and I think she was there for 4 months. It was not the
best example of his training methods - he was under pressure to
perform. Better examples can be seen in my videos of Scarlett, Kirk
(Dry Peptolena), and Oak.
If any of you on the wreck have examples of colts in their first thru
third month who are being started Western in which they are not asked
to give to bit pressure and position their nose/poll/neck/shoulders,
I'd love to see them. :-)
take care
cindi
Ponai Mahone
(Quick side note to Laurel) Your instincts are excellent and your reply is
polite and kind. The man was muscling the horse.
> I'm mixed. I watched him ride that horse a lot at home and I watch him
> ride others. He doesn't pull them into a frame - he picks up on their
> face and holds until they give, and then he gives a release, and then
> he asks again. It has nothing to do with collection or a frame and
> everything to do with being soft and responsive in the face and in
> having a positionable nose/poll/neck/shoulder. VERY standard in
> western/cowhorse training, despite what people will proclaim. He's
> doing stuff with his legs too but that's never as obvious. Person
> applies pressure, horse gives to the pressure, human gives a release,
> etc etc etc.
By riding in "tight" contact with rigid shoulders, he (the cowboy) is not
allowing for the movement from the horse, so the horse has to travel in a
frame, prescribed the amount of latitude before the horse hits the bit in a
rather painful fashion. Good contact with a horse's mouth required the
rider's body being fluid with the horse's movement, so the horse can indeed
travel in self-carriage.
What your trainer buddy is doing is riding the horse continuously into a
wall, thereby forcing the horse to adjust the way he moves his body, as an
accommodation to the bit in his mouth.
I understand many, many people ride horse's in the way you describe, with
rigid, unyielding contact to the horse's mouth, but that does not make it
tactful or considerate to the horse.
There is a segment of the horse world who have become disillusioned with
using bits in horse's mouths, because their experience of riding with a bit,
is to ride like the cowboy in the video, because they have ridden horses who
have been mouthed by people like the chap in the video. A bit is a
communication tool. The sensation of the horse's mouth gives you an
opportunity to understand the horse's state of mind at that precise moment
in time, and for you the rider to send subtle messages on various different
management topics. If either the horse or the rider is rigid in the
communication connection, opportunity is lost, and it frequently becomes a
one way conversation.
> I really think more people should watch colt starting - Parelli even,
> and Clinton Anderson, and Dennis Reis, Craig Cameron, Richard Winters,
> Al Dunning, even John Lyons, etc. All those western started colts are
> ridden like that, and over time it's refined so that it's not as
> obvious to onlookers.
Muscling through with a horse, never makes for good equitation. I read Bill
Dorrance recently. He was 88 when he started with his final horse Beauty(?).
She was a rehab, with a few antisocial habits from her previous life. At
that age, Dorrance wouldn't have had the muscle power to ride the way your
trainer friend rides He rode her, until he retired from riding at 92. So,
not all western guru types have advocated muscling a horse. Just because you
(or your trainer) can, doesn't make it right.
I have been around horse's for a considerable amount of time. I don't do it
for a living, but I have trained horse in various different situations, both
from the beginning, and rehab. Mouthing horses requires tact, to provide a
platform for the horse to accept a bit kindly. Many problems horses in need
of rehab have their problems rooted in how they were mouthed.
Also worthy of considering, is riding the horse in such a way so as to
promote self-carriage. The horse needs to have space to balance his body.
This I believe is a universal thought, not just a Western or English one.
Self carriage needs to be important from ride one, so it becomes habitual on
the part of the horse rather than the now habitual hollow frame demonstrated
by the draft cross, Gypsy thing, with glitter on his bum, because he lacks
the ability to be able to use his body.
The way the Gypsy thing, with glitter on his bum goes, indicates he will
always struggle with how he moves, and he won't be a comfortable ride,
because he is accustomed to moving in a rigid, shuffling fashion when
carrying a rider. The person who mouths the horse carries a huge
responsibility, because he is the person who taught him to carry a bit with
a rigid jaw. If the jaw is rigid, the horse becomes rigid in other parts of
his body too. Consciously lock your jaw, and see if you can do it without
clenching your buttocks, or making your back rigid, it really won't help you
move around a lot. Try walking. Unclench your jaw (opening your mouth
slightly works well), relax your buttock muscles, and those of your back. Is
walking easier now?
> . . . use guys just like these to start their
> colts.
Because maybe there is a shortage of people who have the ability and the
inclination to break horses, and guys who wear cowboy hats are often willing
to work without medical insurance and take the risk of a horse giving a bad
reaction to their methods. People assume any dude in a cowboy hat is a
horse-breaker if he says he is. The reality is, some guys in cowboy hats
make a really nice job of breaking, and some do not. The guy in the video
seems to work for you. Me, personally? I wouldn't let him near my horse.
Cheers, Deb
Jill
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lc940T2jMmM
Nice little horse.
What a shame its in those hands.
I know you love him, Cindi, but there is nothing that man does on a horse
that I can like. He may be in the more subtle end of the coarseness of
horsemanship, but it doesn't make any of it pleasant to watch. Certainly
nothing that the equine beneath him can like.
Tricks do not make a great horseman, nor a good relationship with the horse.
That was not a happy pone.
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
Jill
>
> I like that he's not rough.
He IS rough, he is just a bit more subtle about it.
It matters not how many others you watch, its him that is near your equines.
Others of us have done the starting ourselves.
With a decent rider, and starter, that little cob could be an interesting
ride.
With that start, and those hands, and attitude, it will never fulfill its
potential.
And if its only TWO it should be in a field.
If a cob is ridden like that, at that age, it will not be sound for its
life.
He is unsympathetic, unknowledgeable, and crude.
The fact that he is just one of many makes it no better.
Jane Saranac
cindi
---
Hi Cindi. We have a coming 8 Gypsy at our barn. I have seen him grow since
he came three years ago, from around mid14 something to about 15.1 HH. and
his whole body changed too. I would never put a cowboy and a western saddle
on the back of a 2 year old horse much less a Gypsy -- that breed in general
grows at a much slower rate than a QH. When I saw him on her, making her
get up with him on her no less, and the w/t/c without getting off her back
it did make me cringe I confess.
Eileen Morgan
> I would never put a cowboy and a western saddle
> on the back of a 2 year old horse much less a Gypsy -- that breed in general
> grows at a much slower rate than a QH.
It is deceptive-- the QH looks more mature sooner, but under the skin
develops at the same basic rate as any other breed of similar size.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest
http://www.themaresnest.com
Jane Saranac
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:4a4dfe22$0$27621$ce5e...@news-radius.ptd.net...
> Jane Saranac wrote:
>
>> I would never put a cowboy and a western saddle on the back of a 2 year
>> old horse much less a Gypsy -- that breed in general grows at a much
>> slower rate than a QH.
>
> It is deceptive-- the QH looks more mature sooner, but under the skin
> develops at the same basic rate as any other breed of similar size.
>
established that the draft breeds grow at a slower rate -- or perhaps just
continue to grow for a longer period of time.
There is a Friesian at my barn that grew 3/4 of a hand from the age of 5 to
7 and I thought QHs were done growing sooner.
betsey
in general, i'm not in favor of riding a horse at two...i have seen it
done, and i do wonder about the longevity of the horse (i know its
been debated to death).
but on the whole, I'm not opposed to a western saddle. what a western
saddles DOES do, is spread your weight over more of an area---so it's
not as concentrated in areas, as say a hunt saddle or a dressage
saddle. I know the arguements...that a western saddle is heavier (not
all are though), etc....but for a heavier person like me, it's
actually better for the horse in the long run to have that type of
weight distribution.
betsey
Tamara in TN
VERY standard in
> western/cowhorse training, despite what people will proclaim. He's
> doing stuff with his legs too but that's never as obvious. Person
> applies pressure, horse gives to the pressure, human gives a release,
> etc etc etc.
ummm no...it's not...it's just not...his legs are not even in the
right place
as his stirrups are about 6 inches too short....he didn't release
anything...he hauled
around and forced that baby into all sorts of off balancing
things...why ?
dunno maybe because she has not figured out how to avoid him...but she
will
But the fine line is getting
> them softer in the face without causing resistance. It can be done
> well or it can be done badly, like anything else
but he's not getting anything "soft" you have to have balance to get
"soft"
have this baby horse has none....and she will get tired of him pretty
soon
if she's smart at all...
>
> If any of you on the wreck have examples of colts in their first thru
> third month who are being started Western in which they are not asked
> to give to bit pressure and position their nose/poll/neck/shoulders,
> I'd love to see them. :-)
let's see your pretty typical answer....
"do you like my trainer?"
"ummm.no"
"well everybody does it this way,and if you knew more about training,
you'd do it this way,and if you do know more about colt starting,prove
it"
fine...I went back a few years and found the references I could to
training
colts...in specific, Ben Turners mares....now I rode in those days and
did not have
time to post every days adventures but there are pics there as well as
posts from
others who were here and rode then horses to "prove" it...I also
started Bill
Kambics colts for almost a decade
I'm pretty sure your response will be "oh your not a pro colt starter"
but whatever....
http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/index.html
http://productionacres.com/riding%20out%20aug%2006.htm
so there you go....most date to 2006.......
Tamara in TN
Jane Saranac
"betsey" <twox...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:0a5ec5c7-633a-4150...@32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
in general, i'm not in favor of riding a horse at two...i have seen it
done, and i do wonder about the longevity of the horse (i know its
been debated to death).
but on the whole, I'm not opposed to a western saddle. what a western
saddles DOES do, is spread your weight over more of an area---so it's
not as concentrated in areas, as say a hunt saddle or a dressage
saddle.
--
Good catch. The "western saddle" part of my comment (which I think
mindlessly followed the word "cowboy")should be redacted, because I do
actually recall reading that a western saddle can be great in terms of
weight distribution on a horse's back and better than some English saddles.
There is a website that I found once that let you enter the measurements of
your saddle at different points plus your weight, etc. and it gave you the
pounds per square inch of pressure that your saddle is putting on a horse's
back. I think I remember something about never going above 2 lbs per square
inch but I could be remembering totally wrong. I did enter my county
huntseat saddle and it was fine. I already know all I need to about my
county dressage saddle because Pal's movement in it is wonderful.
Hunter Hampton
<CDHO...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote:
>ummm no...it's not...it's just not...his legs are not even in the
>right place
>as his stirrups are about 6 inches too short....he didn't release
>anything...he hauled
>around and forced that baby into all sorts of off balancing
>things...why ?
Thank you for that. As I don't start babies, I thought maybe what I
was seeing was somehow okay. I'm glad it wasn't.
Hunter
Hunter Hampton
<jsala...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Hmm. What is the source of your info? I thought it was quite well
>established that the draft breeds grow at a slower rate -- or perhaps just
>continue to grow for a longer period of time.
I know what you mean Jane. Draft horses' bones close later than the
light breeds....
Hunter
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
snip
>If any of you on the wreck have examples of colts in their first thru
>third month who are being started Western in which they are not asked
>to give to bit pressure and position their nose/poll/neck/shoulders,
>I'd love to see them. :-)
Gotta agree with Cindi here (and one reason why I wasn't part of the
chorus about Rain). Keep in mind that a Western goal is not continued
work on an English contact but a lighter contact which progresses into
a curb. Western training starts that aspect a lot sooner, and it does
seem to make a horse softer and easier to position. There's a lot of
focus on getting the horse to move straight between the rein, both in
two handed and one handed riding. Some of that may also be the
difference between the saddles--some things you can do more easily
with a stiffer, larger saddle which spreads the weight out further.
Speaking of lighter contact and curbs--I have to admit there's an
entertaining feature in the July H & R which shows a hunt seat rider
on a WP horse, and the trainer's comment is that she's riding with her
reins uneven and too long. Seems to be one of those standard things
that happens the first time for an English rider on Western (and, in
reverse, someone who's been backyard trained in Western will also have
a very long rein).
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>By riding in "tight" contact with rigid shoulders, he (the cowboy) is not
>allowing for the movement from the horse, so the horse has to travel in a
>frame, prescribed the amount of latitude before the horse hits the bit in a
>rather painful fashion. Good contact with a horse's mouth required the
>rider's body being fluid with the horse's movement, so the horse can indeed
>travel in self-carriage.
However, most folks doing this with a green horse are *not* riding
with the continuous contact. I've done this as a rider on a green
horse, and it's absolutely not the same thing as riding with
continuous contact. You're bumping the mouth and asking for a give.
When you get the give, you relax your hand.
snip
>The way the Gypsy thing, with glitter on his bum goes, indicates he will
>always struggle with how he moves, and he won't be a comfortable ride,
>because he is accustomed to moving in a rigid, shuffling fashion when
>carrying a rider. The person who mouths the horse carries a huge
>responsibility, because he is the person who taught him to carry a bit with
>a rigid jaw. If the jaw is rigid, the horse becomes rigid in other parts of
>his body too. Consciously lock your jaw, and see if you can do it without
>clenching your buttocks, or making your back rigid, it really won't help you
>move around a lot. Try walking. Unclench your jaw (opening your mouth
>slightly works well), relax your buttock muscles, and those of your back. Is
>walking easier now?
Some of this is also due to the nature of the horse's conformation.
We've had Gypsy horses come through. They are most emphatically not
saddle horses.
jrw
Ocean of Nuance
> On Jul 3, 2:27 am, cindi <allisonac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
(snip)
> But the fine line is getting
>> them softer in the face without causing resistance. It can be done
>> well or it can be done badly, like anything else
>
> but he's not getting anything "soft" you have to have balance to get
> "soft"
> have this baby horse has none....and she will get tired of him pretty
> soon
> if she's smart at all...
Soft comes from balance. Great way to put it.
If the horse is in self carriage, you stay out of the way.
As Deb previously said, I think if that horse is allowed to go hollow
all the time and never develop the top line or any stretch/suppleness,
it can't conduce to long-term soundness.
sharon
Jane Saranac
"Hunter Hampton" <airstrea...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:g06s4591fpi75qm01...@4ax.com...
that's what I thought... that larger-boned horses' bones finish growth &
close later.
Hunter Hampton
<jsala...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>that's what I thought... that larger-boned horses' bones finish growth &
>close later.
It's true. Bigger bones take longer to fill in.
Hunter
Tamara in TN
wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:14:04 -0400, "Jane Saranac"
>
> >that's what I thought... that larger-boned horses' bones finish growth &
> >close later.
>
> It's true. Bigger bones take longer to fill in.
>
it's what the cattle people call being "large framed"
best
Tamara in TN
Cricket
"Joyce Reynolds-Ward" <j...@aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:jv9s4594jjjhospam...@4ax.com...
> Some of this is also due to the nature of the horse's conformation.
> We've had Gypsy horses come through. They are most emphatically not
> saddle horses.
>
> jrw
Yeah, what she said. I know people who let them cart them around, and it
certainly doesn't do the horse or rider any harm, but getting them to do
what a lot of people want them to do (bascially be a big even mellower
Warmblood) is like getting an English Bulldog to do circus tricks like a
Jack Russell. They may try, and they may get the basic moves sort of down,
but it ain't happening in any real way.
But then again, trying to get a TB to do what they do, in the mood they do
it in, probably isn't happening either. My friend with the riding stable
has had a couple of critters that genetically are basically Gypsy Vanners,
and they make fantastic "carting big awkward people around with out blowing
up and dumping them" horses. But it's still basically draft work..hauling a
big unhelpful load around without freaking out and stomping the passers by.
cricket
Ocean of Nuance
I thought That Dr. Deb woman (the paleontologist... can't remember her
last name) said that all horses mature within the same time frame. I
think she was addressing this issue of WBs growing later/longer than
other horses.
Maybe (likely?) I'm not remembering that correctly.
sharon
Mary Healey
> It has nothing to do with collection or a frame and
> everything to do with being soft and responsive in the face and in
> having a positionable nose/poll/neck/shoulder.
At the beginning of the ride, why does he position the horse's head/neck so
that this youngster is not following his nose? I mean, the last thing I
want to teach a horse is that he can shove out through a shoulder. The
horse is disconnected at the withers, so it doesn't matter how "soft" or
light he feels up front, his feet aren't connected to that nice, soft feel.
> But the fine line is getting
> them softer in the face without causing resistance.
As long as the yielding is all the way through the body, I agree. When it
isn't, it's a really good way to teach a horse to evade. Besides, I want
the horse softer through the body.
Now, all that said, he *did* reward the lying down at the start, and he did
release the hold he had on the horse's face long enough for the horse to
find the lope.
--
Mary H. and the restored Ames National Zoo:
The Right Reverand Sir Edgar "Lucky" Pan-Waffles;
U-CD ANZ Babylon Ranger, CD, RE; ANZ Pas de Duke, RN;
Caris and rotund Rhia
Eileen Morgan
> "Eileen Morgan" <eg...@ptd.net> wrote in message
> news:4a4dfe22$0$27621$ce5e...@news-radius.ptd.net...
>> Jane Saranac wrote:
>>
>>> I would never put a cowboy and a western saddle on the back of a 2 year
>>> old horse much less a Gypsy -- that breed in general grows at a much
>>> slower rate than a QH.
>> It is deceptive-- the QH looks more mature sooner, but under the skin
>> develops at the same basic rate as any other breed of similar size.
>>
> Hmm. What is the source of your info? I thought it was quite well
> established that the draft breeds grow at a slower rate -- or perhaps just
> continue to grow for a longer period of time.
Dr Deb Bennett's study of skeletal development of horses. Note that I
said "of similar size"--true draft horses and very large warmbloods do
take longer, but we are talking in months, not years.
> There is a Friesian at my barn that grew 3/4 of a hand from the age of 5 to
> 7 and I thought QHs were done growing sooner.
Nope. But then, 5% of 17 hands is a lot more noticeable than 5% of 15
hands. I've known plenty of QH who were 14.1 at two or three and
finished about 15 hands; another one I started was 15.2 at three when I
worked him for his peeps and finished at 16.1.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest (PA)
http://www.themaresnest.com
betsey
> "betsey" <twoxo...@aol.com> wrote in message
I think we've visited the same website! my dressage saddle was also
good by that website, but because macho had injured his back....i was/
is extremely cautious.
Eileen Morgan
> "Eileen Morgan" <eg...@ptd.net> wrote in message
> news:4a4dfe22$0$27621$ce5e...@news-radius.ptd.net...
>> Jane Saranac wrote:
>>
>>> I would never put a cowboy and a western saddle on the back of a 2 year
>>> old horse much less a Gypsy -- that breed in general grows at a much
>>> slower rate than a QH.
>> It is deceptive-- the QH looks more mature sooner, but under the skin
>> develops at the same basic rate as any other breed of similar size.
>>
> Hmm. What is the source of your info? I thought it was quite well
> established that the draft breeds grow at a slower rate -- or perhaps just
> continue to grow for a longer period of time.
Here, this is from Dr.Bennett's paper on maturity riding horses:
� No horse, of any breed or bloodline, is mature before the age of 5 �.
� The earliest-maturing horses are small, scrubby, range-bred mares.
Male horses tend to lag about 6 months behind female herd members kept
under the same circumstances. Good feeding tends to prolong growth and
delay maturity.
� No horse is skeletally mature at age 2. There are both advantages and
disadvantages of starting horses at age 2 or earlier. Unless there is a
compelling economic reason, I advise waiting to start young horses
undersaddle until they are 4.
� There is more than one "growth plate". The one growth plate that most
people know about is the one "at the knee" (actually, at the bottom of
the radius-ulna bone just above the knee). Every bone in the skeleton
outside the skull contains at least one growth plate. Each limb bone has
one at the top, one at the bottom, and may have others (on prongs or
projections such as the tip of the elbow or the third trochanter of the
femur).
� Maturation follows a definite pattern. Individual portions of the
skeleton become mature when the growth plate nearest them fuses to the
bone shaft. There is a schedule for this over the horse's body: the
lower down in the limbs, the earlier in life the growth plates fuse.
� The last parts of the skeleton to become mature are the vertebrae and
teeth. The last teeth erupt in a male horse at age 5 � to 6. The last
vertebral growth plates also fuse at about this age, or later.
� The slowest-maturing horses are tall, long-necked individuals.
Largeness itself tends to delay maturity, and long-necked horses tend to
have the caudal cervical plates fuse quite late, even up to age 8.
� Early riding can damage either the young horse's limbs or its back,
although gross damage is rare. Subtle damage, which may only show up on
X-ray, or which may show up even years later, is very common.
Nevertheless, the main reason to avoid riding the 2 year old or younger
horse is not to preserve its bones but to preserve its posture: young
horses readily learn to clamp their back muscles to "defend" against the
rider's weight, whereas 4 year olds and up rarely feel an instinctive
need to do this. Not having learned to clamp their backs, these horses
produce roundness and collection with much greater ease.
-----------
That Gypsy horse is little--most of them are. So he is not terribly
different in size, and thus should follow a similar maturation rate, as
a QH.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<amesn...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>cindi <alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote :
>> It has nothing to do with collection or a frame and
>> everything to do with being soft and responsive in the face and in
>> having a positionable nose/poll/neck/shoulder.
>
>At the beginning of the ride, why does he position the horse's head/neck so
>that this youngster is not following his nose? I mean, the last thing I
>want to teach a horse is that he can shove out through a shoulder. The
>horse is disconnected at the withers, so it doesn't matter how "soft" or
>light he feels up front, his feet aren't connected to that nice, soft feel.
That I couldn't tell you. I think it also depends on whose butt is in
the saddle and what you're feeling. He may be trying to do some sort
of flexion thing.
>> But the fine line is getting
>> them softer in the face without causing resistance.
>
>As long as the yielding is all the way through the body, I agree. When it
>isn't, it's a really good way to teach a horse to evade. Besides, I want
>the horse softer through the body.
>
>Now, all that said, he *did* reward the lying down at the start, and he did
>release the hold he had on the horse's face long enough for the horse to
>find the lope.
Some are better than others, for certain.
jrw
Sue Leopold
> I really think more people should watch colt starting - Parelli even,
> and Clinton Anderson, and Dennis Reis, Craig Cameron, Richard Winters,
> Al Dunning, even John Lyons, etc. All those western started colts are
> ridden like that, and over time it's refined so that it's not as
> obvious to onlookers. You can see the same thing in the videos I
> posted of him riding any of my horses, especially the young ones. I
> don't know a single western trainer who does not train like that, and
> most English riders I know, even those who have very nice winning
> warmbloods and Andalusians, use guys just like these to start their
> colts.
Honestly, this method of starting a young horse is most emphatically
not suitable for bringing a horse along who you want to show in
jumpers, dressage or combined training.
People in this country do use this type of "colt starter" because a lot
of BNTs do not have the time or nclination to properly start a
youngster.
My sister and I trained all our youngsters from scratch. They
were, with the exception of the Ango-Trak filly, all Tbs of Bold
Ruler lineage through Bold Commander and Bold Bidder.
While they were all very nice-tempered horses, anyone can
tell you that you do not "lock horns" with this bloodline. I also
started Choccie who is of course Galoubet.
They were all started the same - taught to lunge, usually
at two, lunged with sidereins on a surcingle and then
a saddle and ground driven. By the time I climbed on,
they knew the voice commands for the various gaits,
"whoa" and the rudiments of basic go left, go right.
Once on board, I never, ever "bumped them off my
hands." Instead, we worked on stabilization of the
gaits on loose reins as described by Littauer. They
learned how to go at different speeds at each gait.
Contact was introduced after they could do the
basics at all gaits.
Chrissy, the Anglo-Trak filly, was able to walk, trot
and canter her first ride and even hopped over a
little crossrail.
Donal starts youngsters. He does not longe, but
instead uses a rope halter. They learn to walk,
trot, canter and jump on the rope halter. When
he first starts riding them, he leaves the frickin'
head alone (as he so colorfully puts it) and focuses
instead on getting control of the horses shoulders
and haunches with his seat and legs so he can
begin developing straightness. (And in fact, he
never rides a "head set'' - when the horse is
properly in front of the leg and is straight, he says,
the head will go where it should as dictated by
the horse's conformation.)
What I saw in the video and what you describe
is riding front-to-back.
> I don't know how many of you here have watched the colt starting
> videos or audited the colt starting clinics - I've watched a ton. And
I don't have to watch them, I've started a lot, all of whom were
able to go on and do something within their discipline.
> I catch myself saying not to do certain things that they all do,
> things that turn out nicely - I even said the same thing to Eileen
> here about Rain, a lot of us did. But the answer for some horse is
> not to just let them go around star gazing and wait for them to begin
> to assume a more appropriate position. But the fine line is getting
But classically speaking, that is what should be done. Sorry, but
them's the facts.
The proof of the method is in the results - The Nose has never,
ever had his face messed with it and he's doing a helluva
lot at the age of six with minimal showing and experience.
He goes in a nothing bit with no extra gadgets. Does he
tuck his nose and look purty? Nope, he isn't built that way
in his frontend and to ask him to do so would be torture.
But he can jump a monstrous course, he's an amateur
ride and he never pulls, blows through the rider's hands,
can turn on a dime (and he's no QH) and is happy in his
work.
> them softer in the face without causing resistance. It can be done
> well or it can be done badly, like anything else.
Donal is picky, picky, picky about a horse being soft in his
hand. He does not use flexions to achieve this; he uses
gymnastic exercises such as leg yield, shoulder-in, haunches-
in. Etc. Or as Cruiser says, it is straight this, straight that
and now you must go crooked to get straight. ;-)
Baucherism (and actually my old farrier and his wife were
followers of Racinet and cliniced with him on occasion) is
*not* the only way to achieve lightness. And frankly, from
my exposure to Baucherism through people who actually
practiced it I am very doubtful that what you describe is
actually BSM. But my exposure is limited so I could be
all wet.
> Now as to this specific video, this horse is not built to cross over
> in front in a turnaround or to do a large fast circle like a reiner.
> So it did look clunky. Compared to the other gypsies, this one was
Yeah, they are clunkers for sure, but I don't think her
ungainliness is the video is what folks are objecting to.
I will say, I was impressed by the horse's condition and
turnout (except for the glitter but I am not a bling person)
Her coat was magnificent - and it was not a show sheen
coat but the type that comes from good nutrition and
grooming and man, the feathers were perfect - that's
a lot of work to take care of them.
> If any of you on the wreck have examples of colts in their first thru
> third month who are being started Western in which they are not asked
> to give to bit pressure and position their nose/poll/neck/shoulders,
> I'd love to see them. :-)
I don't think it is necessary or even preferable to start a
horse Western if you have goals in other areas.
cindi
>
> Muscling through with a horse, never makes for good equitation.
I don't see him muscling her. I see him asking for something that is
hard for her to give, and then giving a release when she does it. It
is worse in this video than when he rides the quarter horses, or even
the warmbloods, for a couple reasons: pressure to make her "look
pretty" for the show, and her conformation and overall ability. I am
probably also colored by all the riding I watch him do that is so much
better than this - better in terms of the horses' understanding and
ability.
> I read Bill
> Dorrance recently. He was 88 when he started with his final horse Beauty(?).
> She was a rehab, with a few antisocial habits from her previous life. At
> that age, Dorrance wouldn't have had the muscle power to ride the way your
> trainer friend rides He rode her, until he retired from riding at 92. So,
> not all western guru types have advocated muscling a horse. Just because you
> (or your trainer) can, doesn't make it right.
I'll go get my Dorrance and quote you about "pulling" on a horse,
which he advocates. I think people can have a lot of misconceptions
about colt starters. I know we all sit around here and say this or
that is right or wrong, but I think a lot of time we are describing
things inaccurately. Dorrance is pretty much the father of putting a
feel on the reins and asking the horse to respond by tipping its nose,
lowering its poll, bending its neck or moving its shoulders. I do
think some guys get to doing it a bit more, er, violently than Bill
did, for sure. But it not holding the horse into a frame.
> The guy in the video
> seems to work for you. Me, personally? I wouldn't let him near my horse.
How about you point me to video of a trainer doing some colt starting
who you do respect? Then we can compare. :-)
cindi
cindi
> ummm no...it's not...it's just not...his legs are not even in the
> right place
> as his stirrups are about 6 inches too short....
We go 'round and 'round with him about his stirrups. The person he
did his apprenticeship with is NCHA and PCCHA hall of famer David
McGregor. He taught him to have his stirrups like that so his leg is
available to the horse at all times. He is very tall and there is no
other way but to have short stirrups to have your leg available at all
times. You can argue all you want, like I do with him, about it, but
the fact remains neither you nor I are NCHA or PCCHA hall of
famers. ;-)
> but he's not getting anything "soft" you have to have balance to get
> "soft"
> have this baby horse has none....and she will get tired of him pretty
> soon
> if she's smart at all...
Actually she loves him and gives him great rides. I agree he was a
bit more interested in having her be perfectly positioned at the
show. I think a better discussion would be over his other videos, and
we can just say that this one was marked by some tension.
> let's see your pretty typical answer....
>
> "do you like my trainer?"
> "ummm.no"
> "well everybody does it this way,and if you knew more about training,
> you'd do it this way,and if you do know more about colt starting,prove
> it"
Not everybody does it this way. I specifically asked for other
examples, so we can discuss - not so I can prove anything. I don't
care if you don't like my trainer. There is much that I like and
don't like about EVERYBODY I've ever seen ride. Except maybe Richard
Winters and Dennis Reis. I think I like pretty much all that they
do.
>
> fine...I went back a few years and found the references I could to
> training
> colts...in specific, Ben Turners mares....now I rode in those days and
> did not have
> time to post every days adventures but there are pics there as well as
> posts from
> others who were here and rode then horses to "prove" it...I also
> started Bill
> Kambics colts for almost a decade
>
> I'm pretty sure your response will be "oh your not a pro colt starter"
> but whatever....
Video? See, that's my point: we talk about something and how it
should be a certain way, but I want to see whether we really do what
we say. I don't care if you're a pro colt starter or not, I'd love to
see video of how you teach them to respond to the reins. If you don't
have video, maybe you have video of somebody else doing it the way
you'd like to see it done.
I'll read all these links but I'm really looking for video. I
appreciate the reply. :-)
cindi
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/browse_thread/thread/aa...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/browse_thread/thread/7b...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/browse_thread/thread/8a...
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/index.html
>
> http://productionacres.com/riding%20out%20aug%2006.htm
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/browse_thread/thread/ac...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/browse_thread/thread/6a...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.equestrian/browse_thread/thread/60...
cindi
> At the beginning of the ride, why does he position the horse's head/neck so
> that this youngster is not following his nose? I mean, the last thing I
> want to teach a horse is that he can shove out through a shoulder. The
> horse is disconnected at the withers, so it doesn't matter how "soft" or
> light he feels up front, his feet aren't connected to that nice, soft feel.
I'm not saying it is done perfectly in the video, but what he's
working on is counter arc circles. Frees up the shoulders, teaches
them to follow a feel with the body and not just to follow their nose
around, important for future movements like rollbacks and turnarounds
and neck reining, very standard in western training. I can find some
book references later. Pretty sure it's very well described in Al
Dunning's book on reining.
cindi
Jill
On Jul 3, 12:54 am, "Ponai Mahone" <lu...@pasture.home> wrote:
>
> I see him asking for something that is
hard for her to give,
what on earth is he doing asking all this of a 2 year old ANYTHING?
That shows his ignorance in one.
The fact that he is a heavy handed, unbalanced, unsubtle show off cowboy who
shows not one iota of "feel" in any vids you have shown us, is just more
reasons to hate what he shows.
> I am probably also colored by all the riding I watch him do that is so
> much better than this - better in terms of the horses' understanding and
> ability.
PLEASE show us this riding, because so far you have shown nothing of
understanding and the only ability is to get yet another equine "BROKEN"
bust and outta there for whatever clients pay him.
yucky yucky yucky
> How about you point me to video of a trainer doing some colt starting who
> you do respect? Then we can compare. :-)
Its your game, does he know you are doing this?
--
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
Tamara in TN
I don't care if you're a pro colt starter or not, I'd love to
> see video of how you teach them to respond to the reins. If you don't
> have video, maybe you have video of somebody else doing it the way
> you'd like to see it done.
>
> I'll read all these links but I'm really looking for video. I
> appreciate the reply. :-)
Video ? you got no idea of how I ride or train from any of what
I posted ? nothing? not even a small idea ?
you said that folks who did not start unbroke animals did not
understand what he was doing...
I had hoped that there was a small bit of info right here, that showed
I did in fact. know something about it and
had a few pics to prove it....why on earth would I video (if I even
had a good camera??) me riding
anything....? I'm just not that in love with myself....
Tamara in TN
cindi
> Once on board, I never, ever "bumped them off my
> hands."
Yes, like you say below, it's an entirely different goal. If a good
English horse allows say 3 ounches of pressure on the reins before
responding in some way, a good Western horse allows only 1. And in
reining and cutting the horses learn to position their bodies and then
make a move - not to position while moving, say like an English horse.
And of course an English horse does not have to do rollbacks and
spins. Plus for a western horse, reins might mean only "position your
head and neck." They open a door, prepare for a movement. Reins
don't mean "and begin a movement." That's left to be cued with leg,
voice, seat.
> Instead, we worked on stabilization of the
> gaits on loose reins as described by Littauer. They
> learned how to go at different speeds at each gait.
> Contact was introduced after they could do the
> basics at all gaits.
I think that's a main difference. Finished western horses don't go
around on contact. When they feel contact, they are supposed to
respond in a manner to make it go away or at least to minimize it as
much as possible.
> Donal starts youngsters. He does not longe, but
> instead uses a rope halter. They learn to walk,
> trot, canter and jump on the rope halter. When
> he first starts riding them, he leaves the frickin'
> head alone (as he so colorfully puts it) and focuses
> instead on getting control of the horses shoulders
> and haunches with his seat and legs so he can
> begin developing straightness. (And in fact, he
> never rides a "head set'' - when the horse is
> properly in front of the leg and is straight, he says,
> the head will go where it should as dictated by
> the horse's conformation.)
I don't have a problem with that. I say that all the time here. But
it's not how you can train a reiner or a cutter.
> What I saw in the video and what you describe
> is riding front-to-back.
If an English horse was ridden like that with the goal of trying to
get them collected, yes, front to back. But what the western guys are
doing is not trying to collect them. They are trying to ensure that
all their body parts are infinitely positionable, loose and free and
available.
> The proof of the method is in the results - The Nose has never,
> ever had his face messed with it and he's doing a helluva
> lot at the age of six with minimal showing and experience.
> He goes in a nothing bit with no extra gadgets. Does he
> tuck his nose and look purty? Nope, he isn't built that way
> in his frontend and to ask him to do so would be torture.
> But he can jump a monstrous course, he's an amateur
> ride and he never pulls, blows through the rider's hands,
> can turn on a dime (and he's no QH) and is happy in his
> work.
My assumptions are as follows: he can't do a reiner or cutter quality
roll back or spin, and if he's asked to do those things he'll be
considered heavy in the front. I could be wrong. :-) And it doesn't
matter for your purposes since he's not supposed to do those things.
But my point is, we all sit around and bitch about certain things, but
those certain things are done for a reason, and we are not out winning
cuttings and reinings, so maybe we should just stop bitching and try
to learn. (Not you in the specific sense, just you know, people in
general.) And it's not just other people - I'm including myself in
that.
> Donal is picky, picky, picky about a horse being soft in his
> hand. He does not use flexions to achieve this; he uses
> gymnastic exercises such as leg yield, shoulder-in, haunches-
> in. Etc. Or as Cruiser says, it is straight this, straight that
> and now you must go crooked to get straight. ;-)
How does one ask for that stuff without asking something of the face
with the reins? It is not as obvious with English riding because the
reins are shorter overall. But things are still happening. It also
isn't as obvious because the horse is not expected to put 4 inches of
slack into the reins when asked for something - he's expected to do
anything from not bull thru it to meet his rider's tension to position
himself so that there is only a bit of tension in the reins, depending
on the rider's skill and ideas...Listen to Jane Savoie, turn the key
in the lock with this hand and suport with that hand, etc - that is
all asking for a postion of the head with the reins. It's not all
that's going on, and neither is it all that's going on in reining/
cutting either.
I think it's mainly two things: a visual difference that we see when
we watch - when there is slack, the slack first comes out, then the
slack is put back in. You don't notice that as much in styles of
riding that use shorter reins overall. And a difference in how we want
the horse to respond; in western the horse is supposed to get off
pressure, put slack in, give, not meet or match or offer pressure
(contact.)
>
> Baucherism (and actually my old farrier and his wife were
> followers of Racinet and cliniced with him on occasion) is
> *not* the only way to achieve lightness. And frankly, from
> my exposure to Baucherism through people who actually
> practiced it I am very doubtful that what you describe is
> actually BSM. But my exposure is limited so I could be
> all wet.
It's not identical, but the idea of not letting the horse charge
around with his body parts in the wrong position is very similar.
> I don't think it is necessary or even preferable to start a
> horse Western if you have goals in other areas.
I don't know... I'm starting to have some ideas about that, when
comparing Allison on Q to S. on her old dressage horse, among other
comparisons. I watch dressage schooling shows and I see riders trying
to use reins and I see horses who don't care that there is tension in
the reins because they are just too darn used to it - it's the status
quo. So when the riders try to do something, the horse can just
stiffen and ignore and then the rider has to use a lot of muscle to
get the movement done. That is a horse who's been taught to ignore
tension in the reins. And that to me is the definition of front to
back riding. It is not the same thing as being asked for a position
and then being given a release.
I have a hard time watching any riding that doesn't result in
ultimately having slack in the reins and thinking of it as proper back
to front riding. Because if you can't let go of the front end and
expect the horse to continue doing whatever it's supposed to be doing,
that means you are always having to muscle that front end around - and
the cutting horses that cutting trainers train have their front ends
completely let go of by the time they are ready to show. Same with
reiners. Now you'll see them school for a moment by picking up and
reminding the horse, but the goal is the horse handles its own front
end, based on the training it has received. You don't have to
"capture and recycle" any energy for the horse, the horse does it on
its own.
Dylan had the high selling horse at the Horse Expo sale last year and
they spun and rolled back and loped circles and worked a cow with not
only almost total constant slack in the reins but also bridleless. So
that's back to my point: we can say that the training he does is not
right all we want, but it works, for his purposes, and I don't know of
any reiner or cutter or cowhorse who's not trained exactly the same
way.
Respectfully,
cindi
cindi
>
> Soft comes from balance. Great way to put it.
Now that is something I don't believe in general. I believe just the
opposite, actually.
cindi
Jill
Actually she loves him and gives him great rides.
she is two years old and that vid showed a very unhappy horse, especially
the walk out.
she is close to being broken - in spirit.
sad
Cindi - we don't need exact comparison vids to understand how well and
sympathetically Tamara starts babies.
You chose to bring this mans work here, extolling his qualities.
Its not working, nothing of his work is pretty, good, or going to create an
equine which wants to work with you.
It may win lots, in a horrid false arena of temporary equinity - but its
nothing to be proud of.
The likes of what Donal and Sue are producing - THATS something to be proud
of.
Ocean of Nuance
What do you mean the opposite of "soft comes from balance?"
Soft comes from imbalance?
Against comes from balance?
A mounted horse in self carriage is balanced both within itself and
withing the horse-rider unit. At that point you stay out of the way
until you learn how to work within it so as to not disturb it while
doing other things.
In re your comment on contact/recycling, the reason is to have a
"medium" with which to use HHs to get them off the forehand and
therefore able to work towards and in collection. If they are on the
forehand, they aren't collected but just slow and maybe even four-beated
at canter. Few can recognize collected from slow and even fewer can
ride the difference.
sharon
cindi
>
> Video ? you got no idea of how I ride or train from any of what
> I posted ? nothing? not even a small idea ?
OK I read the links and looked at the pics. You don't train cutters
or reiners. These horses go on contact and look pretty heavy - by
that I mean they look like they do a good job ignoring rein pressure.
I'm not sure why you put these pics up in this thread as they seem to
be students having lessons, beginner riders mostly, and I don't see
that they have much to do with this conversation at all, and I don't
want to just "talk crap." They are learning and their horses look
sweet and calm. Good for them, good for you. Apples and oranges
though. But there is a lot to critique (as there would be in pics of
me giving lessons, also!) Not sure what the point is but for example
those pics of a man standing with tension in the reins and nothing is
happening, in a couple pics, and even moving in the same manner as in
this one:
http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/IMG_1497.html
If a reiner had that much tension in the reins he'd be tucking his
chin and moveing backwards. Maybe a moment in time, I dunno, which is
why video would be great.
And the gal steering with her inside hand way back by her
knee...http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/
IMG_1468.html, not looking where she's trying to go, trying to pull
all the weight onto the inside front...
And a younger gal, in this one: http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/IMG_1485.html
Nothing much happening in response to rein tension in any of those.
Now with all that said it really doesn't matter - the horses are
serving their purpose, and they seem calm outside, which is great.
But they aren't doing cutting and reining moves so it's kind of hard
to compare. Apples and oranges again.
Furthermore the written info on the links you provided didn't tell me
anthing about how you get a horse to position itself for, say, a
rollback or a spin or to back a circle. Probably because you don't do
those things, so again, apples and oranges.
> you said that folks who did not start unbroke animals did not
> understand what he was doing...
Well what I think I said was folks who don't watch colt starters,
particularly the western colt starters like the ones I mentioned, are
going to look at it and find it odd. I'm not saying there is not
another way to get a horse broke enough that a family can ride it
around the arena and on the trail and do things with it like gymkhana,
mounted shooting, and English riding. There is, and I've done it
too. But I'm talking about cowhorse, reining, cutting. I'm looking
for video of trainers who do that a different way, if anybody can find
any.
> I had hoped that there was a small bit of info right here, that showed
> I did in fact. know something about it and
> had a few pics to prove it....
You can apparently do a pretty good job with family horses. :-) I
don't know anything else about you from what you posted or from the
pics. I don't know if you would even care to try to teach say a
rollback or a spin. If you did, I'd like to hear about it, and see
it, preferably.
> why on earth would I video (if I even
> had a good camera??) me riding
> anything....? I'm just not that in love with myself....
Obviously it's not about that... I don't know how much of a training
business you want to have - I think I read that you don't want to
train for the public anymore or at all - but obviously if you did, it
would be good to have video, so there's a reason... You might also
want to for discussion purposes here; goodness knows I've put some
stuff up of me and my place that isn't super awesome just for the
purposes of discussion. :-)
cindi
cindi
> cindi wrote:
> > On Jul 3, 8:13 am, Ocean of Nuance <lizRMOVzardwo...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >> Soft comes from balance. Great way to put it.
>
> > Now that is something I don't believe in general. I believe just the
> > opposite, actually.
>
> What do you mean the opposite of "soft comes from balance?"
>
> Soft comes from imbalance?
>
> Against comes from balance?
Balance comes from being soft. Balance comes from the horse managing
the forces of weight and gravity such that none are acting in a way to
pull a horse off balance. If a horse falls out of balance while
moving, a soft response to cues that help the horse regain the proper
position will restore balance. A non-soft (bracing, leaning, pulling)
response to cues will cause more imbalance.
cindi
Jill
business you want to have - I think I read that you don't want to
train for the public anymore or at all - but obviously if you did, it
would be good to have video, so there's a reason... You might also
want to for discussion purposes here; goodness knows I've put some
stuff up of me and my place that isn't super awesome just for the
purposes of discussion. :-)
Sorry _ I hadn't realised that you were orchestrating your trainers
Publicity campaign.
Otherwise there is no need for that rubbish you have just posted to Tamara.
Tamara is streets ahead of this Cowboy in her ability to read and respond to
an equine.
Use him if you want to win some false competition, or a harsh working
environment.
Anyone wanting to have a real longterm working relationship with thier horse
will chose someone else.
its horses for courses, some will use breakers. other will chose to work
with the animal they have.
To be honest Cindi, I have utterly astonished at your support for this
rider, what he does seems to go against everything you have written about
how you work and teach and how you read the animals around you.
cindi
> I know you love him, Cindi,
Just to clarify. I don't love him. I don't love any trainer. I use
him for various reasons, mainly he is the best for this sort of
training that I can afford and that's in a reasonable distance to me,
and he's very nice and fun to be around and I've been using him and
his step dad at that barn for 10 years now for various things. I
don't mind critiquing him. I don't see only good in what he does
although I mostly agree to suspend my judgement and wait to see the
finished product. And the bottom line is I have been nothing but
pleased with the results in all horses he's worked for me. I cringed
just as much as y'all did when he kept Scarlett so "bridled up" in her
first month of training, and didn't just line her out and go
somewhere. But she's a fantastic prospect and could make one hell of
a reiner if I had the money. He's trained her just like he's trained
other horses that he's won on and just like he was trained by a guy
who's won a gazillon things and just like all the other guys who do
those disciplines. And no, winning isn't everything, but the nicest
horses in my lesson program, the ones who are easiest for the kids to
manuever and position, who are soft and responsive and who do not ever
brace or snatch or root or anything, are the ones who started as
cowhorses and reiners, just like that. It doesn't start off super
pretty but it ends up that way. They stay off the rein pressure, they
position their body parts as requested... And it's not very fair of me
to not like how he trains them if I do like and take advantage of the
result. I'm going to do video of Oak and Q to show where this sort of
thing is all headed. Then any of you can watch video of any of the
guys I mentioned in my previous post to see the end result. I like
the critiquing and appreciate everybody's responses. :-)
cindi
betsey
> On Jul 3, 12:56 pm, Tamara in TN <CDHOW...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Video ? you got no idea of how I ride or train from any of what
> > I posted ? nothing? not even a small idea ?
>
> OK I read the links and looked at the pics. You don't train cutters
> or reiners. These horses go on contact and look pretty heavy - by
> that I mean they look like they do a good job ignoring rein pressure.
> I'm not sure why you put these pics up in this thread as they seem to
> be students having lessons, beginner riders mostly, and I don't see
> that they have much to do with this conversation at all, and I don't
> want to just "talk crap." They are learning and their horses look
> sweet and calm. Good for them, good for you. Apples and oranges
> though. But there is a lot to critique (as there would be in pics of
> me giving lessons, also!) Not sure what the point is but for example
> those pics of a man standing with tension in the reins and nothing is
> happening, in a couple pics, and even moving in the same manner as in
>
> If a reiner had that much tension in the reins he'd be tucking his
> chin and moveing backwards. Maybe a moment in time, I dunno, which is
> why video would be great.
>
> And the gal steering with her inside hand way back by her
> knee...http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/
> IMG_1468.html, not looking where she's trying to go, trying to pull
> all the weight onto the inside front...
>
yesterday Katie and I spent the day at an AQHA show at the Horse
Park.....we went to support some friends who were showing, and in all,
take in the sights.
What was great was that for lunch, I and our friend who IS a big name
person in the breed, sat and watched the schooling going on before the
classes started. So, we got to watch both HUS and western horses....
and to quote my friend "riding front to back is NEVER the right
approach". we saw LOTS of that occurring, both in english and western
tack. guess it's not limited to one discipline <grin>. And the whole
give and release was not really happening in that video Cindy. It's
fine if that is what you want in a horse trainer...if YOU are happy
wiht the product is providing you, that's all that really matters.
But to paraphrase another even bigger name person (this one...Richard
Shrake)---he is very good friends with my friend, so it's neat to meet
and talk to the man. his comment regarding what goes on at expos-
getting on the horse while it's laying down, standing on the
horse....in his opinion, NOT at all natural horsemanship, or even
horsemanship...but what horse "gyps" (traders) have been doing for
centuries "look at this nice quiet horse, it will even lay down so i
can get on it"....but not really be trained.
I can't really speak about who starts colts well. OK, I can. Macho's
breeder...he was started and ridden in a 40 acre field (she did not
have a ring, or a round pen). He's a solid little horse. he'll
certainly bend through his body (not just wag his neck) and will
give..but try that back and forth head wagging that goes on with so
many "natural horsemanship" folk, and I do believe he'd ditch you.
And, I do think going through photos that someone posted of friends
and family having fun on horses and criticizing them is down right
nasty. Tamara never posted them with the intention of saying "hey,
come and criticize these riders". that's unfair and unkind. i'd
expect better from you.
Betsey
wjka...@gmail.com
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Tamara has started more than one horse for us. They have gone on to
different disciplines (trail riding, dressage, eventing, some Western
disciplines). I have no "heartburn" with her practices, even though
her way is not always mine (following the Ft. Riley method I ride in
continuos contact, she does not). But I've taken horses she has
started and worked with them in my way without issue.
I don't see how starting a Western horse is any different than
starting an English horse. We've talking walk, trot, canter, whoa,
simple turns. From this foundation a horse can go to the QH Congress
or the SRS or anyplace else.
I know a lady in our local hunt who stands 5'10" tall, has a 36"
inseam, and rides a 14.2 Arab gelding. She can use her legs quite
well with a standard stirrup length. She does wear her spurs on her
ankles, but then so did Kirk Douglas (he was 5'10"; see him in "The
Villain" with The Governator and Anne Margret). He may also wear them
that way in "The War Wagon" (it's been a while since I've seen that
one).
The Duke (6'4"), Tom Selleck (6'4"), and Clint Eastwood (6'2") all
sit a horse nicely and all have standard stirrup lengths.
I could also mention James Stewart, Henry Fonda, and Randoph Scott,
but I won't.
Your eye in this case is very poor, as is your judgement.
Ocean of Nuance
I was talking about the feel you get when the horse is balanced.
Horse balance seems to be partly inborn and partly learned. Some horses
need to learn more or less depending on what they already have. Uphill
balance is not natural (horse are naturally on the forehand) and has to
be taught as far as I know.
Is there ever reason to get a western horse off the forehand and in a
level or even uphill balance?
How do they accomplish it?
sharon
Tamara in TN
>
>
>
> > Video ? you got no idea of how I ride or train from any of what
> > I posted ? nothing? not even a small idea ?
>
> OK I read the links and looked at the pics. You don't train cutters
> or reiners.
no but I have started them...it's how I got my back broke 8
yos ago...
that animal was sent to me specifically as they "did not want his
mouth busted
up by a man"...as many others were
> I'm not sure why you put these pics up in this thread as they seem to
> be students having lessons, beginner riders mostly, and I don't see
> that they have much to do with this conversation at all, and I don't
> want to just "talk crap." They are learning and their horses look
> sweet and calm.
no....that is Ben Turner and his wife Tara Santmire picking up the bay
from Bill Kambic house
it was the first ride on their unbacked filly (the bay) and we then
left for the fields...Ben Turner
took all those pics and posted them 3 yos ago...no one is getting any
lessons short of the
gears I have put on the mare they paid me to put on the mare...
Good for them, good for you. Apples and oranges
> though. But there is a lot to critique (as there would be in pics of
> me giving lessons, also!) Not sure what the point is but for example
> those pics of a man standing with tension in the reins and nothing is
> happening, in a couple pics, and even moving in the same manner as in
> this one:http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/IMG_149...
that is Bill Kamic riding his Marchador mare
>
> If a reiner had that much tension in the reins he'd be tucking his
> chin and moveing backwards. Maybe a moment in time, I dunno, which is
> why video would be great.
Bill can I am sure tell you why he does not need a reiners handle and
rate on this mare...if he
did I certianly could put one there...
>
> And the gal steering with her inside hand way back by her
> knee...http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/
> IMG_1468.html, not looking where she's trying to go, trying to pull
> all the weight onto the inside front...
this will be the owner figuring out gears that did not exist 4 mos
earlier...
>
> And a younger gal, in this one: http://mysite.verizon.net/bwturner/pictures/kambics_july_2006/IMG_148...
> Nothing much happening in response to rein tension in any of those.
my daughter sitting on Fe who was sold out west...Fe had an obnoxious
habit of rein chewing which is
what she is doing now
>
> Furthermore the written info on the links you provided didn't tell me
> anthing about how you get a horse to position itself for, say, a
> rollback or a spin or to back a circle. Probably because you don't do
> those things, so again, apples and oranges.
ya know... that is getting kinda old....reiners and cutters,
believe it or not, do not
expect that much out of a 2 yo with 4 mos under saddle...esp not in a
draft pony...
the trend is not the turn and burn with the babies anymore....
>
But I'm talking about cowhorse, reining, cutting. I'm looking
> for video of trainers who do that a different way, if anybody can find
> any.
>
> > I had hoped that there was a small bit of info right here, that showed
> > I did in fact. know something about it and
> > had a few pics to prove it....
>
> You can apparently do a pretty good job with family horses. :-) I
> don't know anything else about you from what you posted or from the
> pics. I don't know if you would even care to try to teach say a
> rollback or a spin. If you did, I'd like to hear about it, and see
> it, preferably.
well, I was asked to wrote about it,and be featured on the cover
of
Gaitedhorse magazine...they thought I was qualified enough apparently
in 2001....maybe I am just old?? or you'll pop off with...well sure
"gaited horses"
they're not reiners or cutters or <whatever>
he's a hard handed circus trick rider...who wants to be another
parelli/anderson clone...
good for him...it's not for me...
Tamara in TN
cindi
>
> Sorry _ I hadn't realised that you were orchestrating your trainers
> Publicity campaign.
Not hardly. They are packed to the gills with a long waiting list.
> Otherwise there is no need for that rubbish you have just posted to Tamara.
> Tamara is streets ahead of this Cowboy in her ability to read and respond to
> an equine.
I wouldn't know. I'd love to see video. :-) And like I said to
Tamara, what she's doing is great, awesome, fabulous, love it. But I
want to see other ways to start cowhorses. Or I want to see horses
started that way able to do what young cowhorses can do at around the
6th month of training or earlier, at least these parts:
- not allowing tension on the reins without noticing and trying to
respond properly
- able to do a pivot and a turn on the haunches
- able to sidepass over and open/close a gate
- able to back a circle
Um that might be sufficient.
> Use him if you want to win some false competition, or a harsh working
> environment.
> Anyone wanting to have a real longterm working relationship with thier horse
> will chose someone else.
See my post to you I just did. These horses are awesome.
> its horses for courses, some will use breakers. other will chose to work
> with the animal they have.
>
> To be honest Cindi, I have utterly astonished at your support for this
> rider, what he does seems to go against everything you have written about
> how you work and teach and how you read the animals around you.
That's exactly my point. I talk one way but like the results of
another way. That is not intellectually honest of me. And that's why
I'm looking for other examples.
Course I do feel that I fill in a lot of gaps with my style of
training. Like with Oak, who's been there for several months. Last
night I checked to see if Oak can handle a plastic bag in the air
around him, and no, he could not. That sort of thing is not their
focus. ;-) But I try to train pretty much like Parelli, Clinton
Anderson, Dennis Reis (although he's so good he's way above my head),
and the saddle portion of those guys including a ton others is just
like Dylan. They all tend to do more advanced groundwork than Al
Dunning, Bob Avila, those types, who tend to do more show horse
training and who solve all their issues from the saddle. But the
riding is the same.
But if I like Parelli, I like Dylan, for their advanced under saddle
work is nearly identical. Parelli teachs a lot of one rein work for
green horses but that's because his clients don't have the feel and
timing to work with two right from the get go and they need to learn
at a more remedial level for a while... But the advanced riding is
pretty much identical in theory. And they all learned from Bill
Dorrance... etc etc.
Anyway I'm distracted now and forget my point, sorry. ;-)
cindi
betsey
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sharon--
it's important to not judge all western horses by what you see in BAD
western pleasure...where the horse is working with it's poll lower
than it's shoulder, etc. Well trained reiners and western riding
horses (you might like that class...picture dressagey stuff with cones
and logs involved...lots of loped serpentines with flying changes)
don't really operated that low...though it DOES seem to becoming a
trend in certain reining circles.
you're not for the most part, going to see a grandprix frame going
on...remember, these horses were bred to do different things from a
dressage horse. if you investigate the californio way.,,,use of a
spade bit, you get more of a french classical feel, i believe. like a
well trained upper level horse, it takes years to create. the horse
is worked in a snaffle, than a bosal, then a spade and bosal combo.
the experts do not touch the horses mouth with that bit in it. it's
not something anyone BUT an expert can use successfully.
Again--i know you believe that THE ONLY TRUE WAY is dressage....but
horses have been bred to do other things.
Betsey
cindi
>
> And, I do think going through photos that someone posted of friends
> and family having fun on horses and criticizing them is down right
> nasty. Tamara never posted them with the intention of saying "hey,
> come and criticize these riders". that's unfair and unkind. i'd
> expect better from you.
Um, I think there must be some confusion here. I asked for video of
colt starting. Tamara provided links and pics. I didn't read them,
and she reminded me in her next post that they prove she has
experience with the subject matter at hand and seemed a bit peeved
that she'd gone to the trouble to gather them up and I hadn't looked
at them. So I very gently pointed out that it's not really in the
same category - not better not worse, just different. I even said I
didn't get why she was using those for this discussion since they
appear to be a family or students just having fun. They appear this
way due to the things I saw happening in the pics, things that I
mentioned so it would be clear what I was seeing. I even said my own
lesson pics will have similar things to critique. I even went on and
on about how it's fine, it's awesome, it's great. Yet you still call
me unkind? I don't get it.
So for the record: Tamara seems great at what she does. Those horses
seem very kind. It is totally awesome that the people own them, ride
them, take care of them, send them for training, have lessons on them,
take them outside on the trail and don't get killed on them, etc etc
etc. AWESOME. I don't think I can be more clear about that. But it
is not evidence of another way to start a cowhorse. That's all.
cindi
cindi
behaved looking horses with owners and riders who care about them. If
reining and cutting isn't for you, it'll be hard for you to explain or
show me how you'd start one and teach it to do the things I
mentioned. Which is totally no big deal and great and fine and
awesome. How can I check out that magazine article you mentioned? I
wonder if it's online... Congrats on being in it, by the way.
> he's a hard handed circus trick rider...who wants to be another
> parelli/anderson clone...
> good for him...it's not for me
I do know that the tricks were already trained and the owner wanted
him to do that in the show. I also know that his step dad who he
trains for has had nothing much good about Parelli to say. He knew
him in person when he trained gaited horses, before he got well
known. I don't think either of them know or have seen Clinton
Anderson.
Which again brings up my point - if people are training the same and
haven't even watched each other and don't even profess to like each
other and they are all getting results, there must be something to
it.
cindi
Jill
On Jul 3, 1:53 pm, betsey <twoxo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> And, I do think going through photos that someone posted of friends
> and family having fun on horses and criticizing them is down right
> nasty. Tamara never posted them with the intention of saying "hey,
> come and criticize these riders". that's unfair and unkind. i'd
> expect better from you.
Um, I think there must be some confusion here. I asked for video of
colt starting. Tamara provided links and pics. I didn't read them,
why ?
Tamara in TN
> Um, I think there must be some confusion here. I asked for video of
> colt starting. Tamara provided links and pics. I didn't read them,
> and she reminded me in her next post that they prove she has
> experience with the subject matter at hand and seemed a bit peeved
> that she'd gone to the trouble to gather them up and I hadn't looked
> at them.
ummm no you said :
> If any of you on the wreck have examples of colts in their first thru
> third month who are being started Western in which they are not asked
> to give to bit pressure and position their nose/poll/neck/shoulders,
> I'd love to see them. :-)
then I said:
let's see your pretty typical answer....
"do you like my trainer?"
"ummm.no"
"well everybody does it this way,and if you knew more about training,
you'd do it this way,and if you do know more about colt
starting,prove
it" (which was your paraphrased reply to almost everyone so far)
then I said:
fine...I went back a few years and found the references I could to
training colts...in specific, Ben Turners mares....now I rode in those
days and
did not have time to post every days adventures but there are pics
there as well as
posts from others who were here and rode then horses to "prove" it...I
also
started Bill Kambics colts for almost a decade
I'm pretty sure your response will be "oh your not a pro colt
starter"
but whatever....
end...
so I was close anyway...you can dismiss what I say or do _now_ because
I am not
pro trainer of cutters or reiners...but if I was I'd see how great
your guy really is...
ya see, a salient point you are missing is that yes,...2 .5 yos
reiners and cutters can get
hotrodded around like this...
but if they are going to the futurites they have balance,speed,good
loins and a natural
inclination for what they do....that someone does this to a draft pony
is just crazy....
Tamara in TN
Tamara in TN
> Thanks for sharing the pics and the riders. Very nice sweet well
> behaved looking horses with owners and riders who care about them. If
> reining and cutting isn't for you, it'll be hard for you to explain or
> show me how you'd start one and teach it to do the things I
> mentioned.
ok ......<throws up hands> you missed the part about _I used to do
that quite a lot before a son of Smart Chick Olena threw me three
times in
15 min one wondy march day and broke my back in two places_
god...
what do you want to know??
and try to be specific...
Which is totally no big deal and great and fine and
> awesome.
you can stop being dismissive any time now....
How can I check out that magazine article you mentioned? I
> wonder if it's online... Congrats on being in it, by the way
it was disbanded in 07 <?> it was for a long time the only full color
glossy
gaited mag there was....it was Titled "In a Spin" and featured a
versatility
champion from TX for the photos
Tamara in TN
CMNewell
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Jul 3, 11:34�am, svleop...@earthlink.net (Sue Leopold) wrote:
>
>> Once on board, I never, ever "bumped them off my
>> hands."
>
>Yes, like you say below, it's an entirely different goal. If a good
>English horse allows say 3 ounches of pressure on the reins before
>responding in some way, a good Western horse allows only 1.
Nonsense. Light is light.
>And of course an English horse does not have to do rollbacks and
>spins.
You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?
Tamara in TN
> behaved looking horses with owners and riders who care about them. If
> reining and cutting isn't for you, it'll be hard for you to explain or
> show me how you'd start one and teach it to do the things I
> mentioned. Which is totally no big deal and great and fine and
> awesome.
Oct 31 2005 : from Req Equestrian
hi again
had a nice time on Sat with my big dun training victim at the
"east of the MS regional" show for the NFQHA at Harriman..nice folks
and made me feel at home...while this arena is in my backyard and I
know all the staff and farriers that work it...there was no one local
at this show...the closest folks seemed to come from four or five
hours
away...
our job was to "see the world"...I chose the day when the cattle
classes were being held...not much "seeing the world" one can do
watching 50 trail classes <G> so we positioned ourselves at the far
end
of the indoor arena to be nearest the calves for the cutting and
pennings...
this arena is surrounded by a four foot concrete
barrier with a railing on top...the mare could see the action while
not
disturbing the calves...as a calf's number was called we shadowed the
incoming rider slowly...and as the calf was pulled out and walked
toward us on the outside we stood still and as it walked away from us
we walked toward it...as it was sent down the fence we followed it...
on after lunch to the team penning/roping...we again were in the
middle of the action but this time across a 5 foot corral panel
fence.....the loop tossing and steers exploding from the barriers got
boring in about two runs and the mare was most intereted in a tiny
toddler about 30 feet away and to her left...she kept one ear in the
baby and when the child dissapperaed behind a set of hay bales the
mare
turned her whole face to the left to see just where she had gone...
funny what they notice ? ? <g> anyway...if things allow
I'll be back at Harriman with the same mare on wed for a team
roping...
Tamara in TN
Jane Saranac
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:4a4e392c$0$27671$ce5e...@news-radius.ptd.net...
>> Hmm. What is the source of your info? I thought it was quite well
>> established that the draft breeds grow at a slower rate -- or perhaps
>> just continue to grow for a longer period of time.
Thanks for the info, Eileen. She does seem to corroborate what I read:
> � The slowest-maturing horses are tall, long-necked individuals. Largeness
> itself tends to delay maturity, and long-necked horses tend to have the
> caudal cervical plates fuse quite late, even up to age 8.
That would explain the Friesian for sure.
>
> That Gypsy horse is little--most of them are. So he is not terribly
> different in size, and thus should follow a similar maturation rate, as a
> QH.
I guess, under her theory -- but their bones are so much denser that it
would seem
counterintuitive.
I am wondering why, given her belief that horses do not fully fuse their
backs until age 5.5 to 6, that she believes it's okay to ride them at 4. I
understand that she says they won't instinctively clamp down and avoid
collection by that age, but if the cervical spine still doesn't fuse for
another year and a half there could still be damage done.
I was planning to wait for 3 for Harlee, and 4 for Damascus. Now I am
wondering if even that is too soon....
Laurel Reddick
<alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Cindi I honestly can't follow what you are saying. Any young horse
who is brought along correctly is taught the same basic principles
whether it be Western or English. Watch some of Lynn Palm's colt
starting videos (unfortunately you have to buy them but they are worth
the money) and you will see what Deb and others were talking about in
their posts.
Laurel
Eileen Morgan
> "Eileen Morgan" <eg...@ptd.net> wrote in message
> news:4a4e392c$0$27671$ce5e...@news-radius.ptd.net...
>
>>> Hmm. What is the source of your info? I thought it was quite well
>>> established that the draft breeds grow at a slower rate -- or perhaps
>>> just continue to grow for a longer period of time.
>
> Thanks for the info, Eileen. She does seem to corroborate what I read:
>
>> caudal cervical plates fuse quite late, even up to age 8.
>
> That would explain the Friesian for sure.
>> That Gypsy horse is little--most of them are. So he is not terribly
>> different in size, and thus should follow a similar maturation rate, as a
>> QH.
>
> I guess, under her theory -- but their bones are so much denser that it
> would seem counterintuitive.
Density is not the same thing as lengthening and then closing. My
densest horse in terms of bone is Belles, and she closed sooner than
most leggier models. She's very short coupled and cobby, which makes
sense. Big around is not the same thing as long.
> I am wondering why, given her belief that horses do not fully fuse their
> backs until age 5.5 to 6, that she believes it's okay to ride them at 4. I
> understand that she says they won't instinctively clamp down and avoid
> collection by that age, but if the cervical spine still doesn't fuse for
> another year and a half there could still be damage done.
>
> I was planning to wait for 3 for Harlee, and 4 for Damascus. Now I am
> wondering if even that is too soon....
I think she is trying to be realistic about the needs for riders to get
horses going under saddle, balanced with their development. Also, you
have to remember that stress in moderation help remodel the bone and
make it stronger, so it could be that a horse never ridden and started
at 7-10 would be weaker and have less bone to work with than a horse
sensibly started in that 3-4 range. But that's just my guess. I've a
video and three of her little books on conformation and development.
I started and worked Belles harder at three than my other two home breds
because she was so darn fat, no matter what fitness and exercise had to
be better for her body than being a blob. I am certainly taking it slow
with Rain--most 4 yr olds are doing a lot more. :-) But she's coming
along beautifully, and we had a terrific schooling this morning. She's
starting to pick up her back and carry me a lot better in our canter
work, which I keep very short at this point. But we had two little
canters today which felt tons more grown up than anything she has
offered to date.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest (PA)
http://www.themaresnest.com
Grizzly
Welll..you did mention Ben Turner...(you name dropper:) That should
have been enough. Lets see cindi on that green horse..for the first
ride, without a darn trainer giggin' it for her..Now that would be
funny. As for your skill as a trainer Tamara, that is beyond a doubt
unquestionable. You've been at it for quite awhile now, and thus far I
don't hear Kambic complaining about your training methods. You must know
a thing or two about a horse or you wouldn't have that gig with him sewn
up the way you do..or is it the baked goods that really clinch the
deal?? Hmmm.
Sue Leopold
> On Jul 3, 11:34 am, svleop...@earthlink.net (Sue Leopold) wrote:
>
> > Once on board, I never, ever "bumped them off my
> > hands."
>
> Yes, like you say below, it's an entirely different goal. If a good
> English horse allows say 3 ounches of pressure on the reins before
> responding in some way, a good Western horse allows only 1. And in
> reining and cutting the horses learn to position their bodies and then
> make a move - not to position while moving, say like an English horse.
> And of course an English horse does not have to do rollbacks and
> spins. Plus for a western horse, reins might mean only "position your
> head and neck." They open a door, prepare for a movement. Reins
> don't mean "and begin a movement." That's left to be cued with leg,
> voice, seat.
Ever watched a competitive jumpoff among really good
jumper riders? They have huge horses that make moves
you would think only a catty little stock horse could make.
Besides, a Western horse does not have to leave a course
of 5' and up jumps up. You cannot ride a high level jumper
w/o contact. Kevin Babington finally told Donal at Garden
State that he had to get Cruiser to "jump into his hand"
and then the horse would leave the jumps up. He was
right, but what the hell does he know, he only rode
successfully in the Olympics. And was asked to keep
Liscalgot under tack and jumping when Dermot Lennon
was laid up.
Ask any eventer if they ride x/c on a loop. Not likely.
Comparing these disciplines is apples and oranges.
MHO.
But then, you equate hunter/jumper, dressage and
combined training with the dink-around just-for-fun
"english' riding that you do on your farm. And with
local-yokel push-and-pull dressage as practiced
in what *you* have described as an equestrian
wasteland. You have not been exposed to advanced
competitive riding in "english" tack.
For you it is reining/cutting uber alles. And that's
fine, but as whatshername :-) has said in the past
no one discipline is the alpha and omega of all
that is equestrian art.
> I think that's a main difference. Finished western horses don't go
> around on contact. When they feel contact, they are supposed to
> respond in a manner to make it go away or at least to minimize it as
> much as possible.
Finished western horses are ridden in leveraged bits with
reins that are significantly heavier than your garden
variety "english" *That* defines the contact - you have
contact but the leverage lessens the ounces of contact
considerably.
MHO, the difference to the horse between a thrown
away rein in a curb and a horse in a plain snaffle with
educated hands is probably nil.
> I don't have a problem with that. I say that all the time here. But
> it's not how you can train a reiner or a cutter.
Right. But that's my point - how you train a reiner and
cutter would not be appropriate IME for a hunter, jumper,
dressage or event horse.
How many reiners or cutters have you actually trained
yourself? I have trained hunters from babies showing in
hunter breeding through the 3'6" divisions. We used a
coach to polish them and us off.
> If an English horse was ridden like that with the goal of trying to
> get them collected, yes, front to back. But what the western guys are
> doing is not trying to collect them. They are trying to ensure that
> all their body parts are infinitely positionable, loose and free and
> available.
Betsey avers that western horses *are* ridden in collection.
And you act like that is exclusive to western riding, which is
bs in my opinion. No jumper would ever succeed were he/she
not infinitely positionable, loose, free and available. The good
ones make it look EASY. Find a copy of the tape from the
1984 Olympics and look at the rides of the US riders. *That*
is the classic American Jumping Style for which the team
was reknowned in the 70s and 80s.
And I'll bet my bottom dollar you have never seen a top-
of-the-line, well-schooled show hunter let alone ridden one.
They are amazing to ride, you think what you want and then
they do it. They are ridden with totally invisible aids; if you
show the ride at the big shows you aren't going to get a call.
> My assumptions are as follows: he can't do a reiner or cutter quality
> roll back or spin, and if he's asked to do those things he'll be
> considered heavy in the front. I could be wrong. :-) And it doesn't
> matter for your purposes since he's not supposed to do those things.
He's a huge horse not a pony or hony of 15 hands or less.
I boarded with pretty competitive reiners and there is a
darned good reason they do not want big horses. They thought
the big h/j horses were appallingly huge, but they understood
why we choose the horses we do. And I fully understand
why smaller horses are preferable for cutting and reining.
And not one of your reining/cutting trained horses could even
remotely do what Cruiser does. Even if we cut the jumps
down proportinally to their size. The training doesn't cut the
mustard. And most h/j types would say they were flat-backed,
splinter-bellied jumpers which is what horses built like yours
jump like.
> But my point is, we all sit around and bitch about certain things, but
> those certain things are done for a reason, and we are not out winning
> cuttings and reinings, so maybe we should just stop bitching and try
> to learn. (Not you in the specific sense, just you know, people in
> general.) And it's not just other people - I'm including myself in
> that.
IIRC I did not "ding" your trainer, I simply meant in my post
that what is correct colt-starting for your discipline probably
won't work for mine.
You might follow your own advice. I'd suggest you might want
to read some Littauer, then follow it up with some Gordon
Wright, Harry Chamberlain, Bill Steinkraus. Once you have
mastered that, try tackling Seuning and d'Endrody. Then
speak to me of jumpers. (I have read them all btw.)
> How does one ask for that stuff without asking something of the face
> with the reins? It is not as obvious with English riding because the
> reins are shorter overall. But things are still happening. It also
> isn't as obvious because the horse is not expected to put 4 inches of
> slack into the reins when asked for something - he's expected to do
> anything from not bull thru it to meet his rider's tension to position
> himself so that there is only a bit of tension in the reins, depending
There are three types of hands:
The pulling hand - I think we all agree that this is always
incorrect. :-)
The nothing, throwaway hand - which is what you seem to prefer
from your posts. That's a fine hand for general pleasure,
recreational riding and you will never hurt a horse with it, but
you will not educate a horse with it either.
The educated hand - this hand supports and follows. A rider
with an educated hand does use the bit as a means of
communication and to contain the energy sent forward from
the rear engine.
The educated hand in action;
http://lizditz.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/georgemorrisjumping.jpg
which is the way jumping should look.
> on the rider's skill and ideas...Listen to Jane Savoie, turn the key
> in the lock with this hand and suport with that hand, etc - that is
> all asking for a postion of the head with the reins. It's not all
> that's going on, and neither is it all that's going on in reining/
> cutting either.
Of course. I am neither ignorant nor inexperienced in
horsemanship.
> It's not identical, but the idea of not letting the horse charge
> around with his body parts in the wrong position is very similar.
What the *hell* makes you think that h/j, dressage and
combined training riders are 'letting the horse charge
around with his body parts in the wrong position ?"
> I don't know... I'm starting to have some ideas about that, when
> comparing Allison on Q to S. on her old dressage horse, among other
> comparisons. I watch dressage schooling shows and I see riders trying
> to use reins and I see horses who don't care that there is tension in
You are talking about local-level, poor riding push and pull
"dressage riders" whose total thing is getting a headset. You
can no more compare that to advanced jumper/dressage/
eventing riders than Eileen could have compared the riders
at her local show to national level reining and cutting trainers.
Geesh.
> the reins because they are just too darn used to it - it's the status
> quo. So when the riders try to do something, the horse can just
> stiffen and ignore and then the rider has to use a lot of muscle to
> get the movement done. That is a horse who's been taught to ignore
> tension in the reins. And that to me is the definition of front to
> back riding. It is not the same thing as being asked for a position
> and then being given a release.
Oh. My. God.
> I have a hard time watching any riding that doesn't result in
> ultimately having slack in the reins and thinking of it as proper back
> to front riding. Because if you can't let go of the front end and
> expect the horse to continue doing whatever it's supposed to be doing,
But it is. Back to front simply means sending the horse forward
to a supporting hand. Pulling does not enter into the equation.
> that means you are always having to muscle that front end around - and
> the cutting horses that cutting trainers train have their front ends
> completely let go of by the time they are ready to show. Same with
> reiners. Now you'll see them school for a moment by picking up and
> reminding the horse, but the goal is the horse handles its own front
> end, based on the training it has received. You don't have to
> "capture and recycle" any energy for the horse, the horse does it on
> its own.
Look, it's a different discipline. *Totally* different. There is a
hell of a lot of difference between riding a jumper course with
related distances, striding options and riding a frickin' reining
pattern that never changes. For crying out loud.
If Donal could ride a jumper course on a looped rein off his
eye for a distance, you better believe he would. Actually, he
could ride Choccie up to Level 5 (4'0") that way - after that
the courses bit the horse and him in the ass. The technical
questions came up too quickly - and that was the only way
Choccie liked to be ridden so ultimately, despite his scope
and technique, he failed to move up.
There is nothing particularly technical about a reining pattern.
It's a pattern, you get the pattern down and habituate the
horse to it. You don't have a course designer building tricks
to have rails so he gets his desired 6-8 clean out of a class
of 30.
Sorry, apples to oranges.
>
> Dylan had the high selling horse at the Horse Expo sale last year and
> they spun and rolled back and loped circles and worked a cow with not
> only almost total constant slack in the reins but also bridleless. So
> that's back to my point: we can say that the training he does is not
> right all we want, but it works, for his purposes, and I don't know of
> any reiner or cutter or cowhorse who's not trained exactly the same
> way.
All trainers train for a particular purpose. What is right for one
discipline is not necessarily right for another.
Ocean of Nuance
> cindi <alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
(snip)
> Besides, a Western horse does not have to leave a course
> of 5' and up jumps up. You cannot ride a high level jumper
> w/o contact. Kevin Babington finally told Donal at Garden
> State that he had to get Cruiser to "jump into his hand"
> and then the horse would leave the jumps up. He was
> right, but what the hell does he know, he only rode
> successfully in the Olympics. And was asked to keep
> Liscalgot under tack and jumping when Dermot Lennon
> was laid up.
Wow I like that "jump into the hand." Sounds like something you could
really work with. ;)
(snip)
>> I think that's a main difference. Finished western horses don't go
>> around on contact. When they feel contact, they are supposed to
>> respond in a manner to make it go away or at least to minimize it as
>> much as possible.
How do you ever get them off their forehand?
How do you get them to avoid BTV when they are "minimizing" the contact?
The trick is to get them OUT to the hand and working along their
topline. How is that done when they are taught to minimize contact?
(snip)
>> If an English horse was ridden like that with the goal of trying to
>> get them collected, yes, front to back. But what the western guys are
>> doing is not trying to collect them. They are trying to ensure that
>> all their body parts are infinitely positionable, loose and free and
>> available.
>
> Betsey avers that western horses *are* ridden in collection.
Or just slow.
> And you act like that is exclusive to western riding, which is
> bs in my opinion. No jumper would ever succeed were he/she
> not infinitely positionable, loose, free and available. The good
> ones make it look EASY. Find a copy of the tape from the
> 1984 Olympics and look at the rides of the US riders. *That*
> is the classic American Jumping Style for which the team
> was reknowned in the 70s and 80s.
Yeah I think that is probably more important in jumpers than dressage
where it is of course one of the names of the game. Suppleness and
relazation are in the pyramid for sure, near the bottom as they are
foundational.
> And I'll bet my bottom dollar you have never seen a top-
> of-the-line, well-schooled show hunter let alone ridden one.
> They are amazing to ride, you think what you want and then
> they do it. They are ridden with totally invisible aids; if you
> show the ride at the big shows you aren't going to get a call.
And the conformation hunters and also very dreamy. :)
>> My assumptions are as follows: he can't do a reiner or cutter quality
>> roll back or spin, and if he's asked to do those things he'll be
>> considered heavy in the front. I could be wrong. :-) And it doesn't
>> matter for your purposes since he's not supposed to do those things.
>
> He's a huge horse not a pony or hony of 15 hands or less.
> I boarded with pretty competitive reiners and there is a
> darned good reason they do not want big horses. They thought
> the big h/j horses were appallingly huge, but they understood
> why we choose the horses we do. And I fully understand
> why smaller horses are preferable for cutting and reining.
Smaller horses are per se easier to ride in my opinion, given the same
training. Anyone who has gone from doing easy quarter turns in canter
(square) just using your lower stomach on a smaller, less trained horse
to "suddenly" not being able to get more than one step over at a time on
a more highly trained, larger horse with the identical lower stomach
muscles will agree. ;)
(snip)
>> But my point is, we all sit around and bitch about certain things, but
>> those certain things are done for a reason, and we are not out winning
>> cuttings and reinings, so maybe we should just stop bitching and try
>> to learn. (Not you in the specific sense, just you know, people in
>> general.) And it's not just other people - I'm including myself in
>> that.
>
> IIRC I did not "ding" your trainer, I simply meant in my post
> that what is correct colt-starting for your discipline probably
> won't work for mine.
>
> You might follow your own advice. I'd suggest you might want
> to read some Littauer, then follow it up with some Gordon
> Wright, Harry Chamberlain, Bill Steinkraus. Once you have
> mastered that, try tackling Seuning and d'Endrody. Then
> speak to me of jumpers. (I have read them all btw.)
I just bought two Wanless books based on ideas of hers I got through
others that has really mattered in my riding. Like a missing puzzle
piece. Great books.
>> How does one ask for that stuff without asking something of the face
>> with the reins? It is not as obvious with English riding because the
>> reins are shorter overall. But things are still happening. It also
>> isn't as obvious because the horse is not expected to put 4 inches of
>> slack into the reins when asked for something - he's expected to do
>> anything from not bull thru it to meet his rider's tension to position
>> himself so that there is only a bit of tension in the reins, depending
>
> There are three types of hands:
>
> The pulling hand - I think we all agree that this is always
> incorrect. :-)
>
> The nothing, throwaway hand - which is what you seem to prefer
> from your posts. That's a fine hand for general pleasure,
> recreational riding and you will never hurt a horse with it, but
> you will not educate a horse with it either.
Nor get it off the forehand as far as I can tell.
> The educated hand - this hand supports and follows. A rider
> with an educated hand does use the bit as a means of
> communication and to contain the energy sent forward from
> the rear engine.
>
> The educated hand in action;
>
> http://lizditz.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/georgemorrisjumping.jpg
>
> which is the way jumping should look.
The hand as part of the rein and recycle and "armless" riding is not a
beginner thing. Wet saddle blankets.
(snip)
>> I don't know... I'm starting to have some ideas about that, when
>> comparing Allison on Q to S. on her old dressage horse, among other
>> comparisons. I watch dressage schooling shows and I see riders trying
>> to use reins and I see horses who don't care that there is tension in
>
> You are talking about local-level, poor riding push and pull
> "dressage riders" whose total thing is getting a headset. You
> can no more compare that to advanced jumper/dressage/
> eventing riders than Eileen could have compared the riders
> at her local show to national level reining and cutting trainers.
>
> Geesh.
W.R.T dressage, you don't see consistent correct riding until the upper
levels and some even say FEI. If she hasn't seen that and had the
chance to audit many, many hours and ask questions then she won't know.
>> the reins because they are just too darn used to it - it's the status
>> quo. So when the riders try to do something, the horse can just
>> stiffen and ignore and then the rider has to use a lot of muscle to
>> get the movement done. That is a horse who's been taught to ignore
>> tension in the reins. And that to me is the definition of front to
>> back riding. It is not the same thing as being asked for a position
>> and then being given a release.
>
> Oh. My. God.
Oh. Your. God. :)
>> I have a hard time watching any riding that doesn't result in
>> ultimately having slack in the reins and thinking of it as proper back
>> to front riding. Because if you can't let go of the front end and
>> expect the horse to continue doing whatever it's supposed to be doing,
>
> But it is. Back to front simply means sending the horse forward
> to a supporting hand. Pulling does not enter into the equation.
An elastic contact is elusive to many who try to attain it. It would be
completely foreign to those not trying to obtain it. There is no
backward (as opposed to following) aspect to elastic contact. By
definition.
sharon
Eileen Morgan
> Wow I like that "jump into the hand." Sounds like something you could
> really work with. ;)
I've always liked the image that the horse's head is a shopping cart you
need to push to the base of the fence--no matter the speed in, leg leg
and a giving hand which does not throw away the horse at the last second.
Cindi:
>>> I think that's a main difference. Finished western horses don't go
>>> around on contact. When they feel contact, they are supposed to
>>> respond in a manner to make it go away or at least to minimize it as
>>> much as possible.
The weight of the curb is a degree of contact--otherwise why graduate to
it instead of just staying in the snaffle?
Sharon:
> How do you ever get them off their forehand?
Amusing thing: I had a XC lesson with Belles, our second of the season.
As always, when Belles is not doing something regularly, she gets very
conservative, plus she is not terribly fit, so I had to really support
her. In our first warm up fences, she was very nice but a bit inclined
to barrel along. We were jumping a log, then galloping uphill all the
way to and over and on up the hill for the second fence, both small but
she was pumped about being out XC. She was being such a nit wit, wanting
to run off and being excited about jumping, and she went plowing down
into my hand and onto her forehand. As we are thundering up the hill, me
sitting as tall as I can, I exclaimed "BELLES! How on earth are you
getting on your forehand UPHILL like this!?" and my coach screamed "KICK
KICK KICK, and GOOD QUESTION!" I certainly was not using reins to get
her off her nose.
Normally, if I have a horse get heavy up front, I do some degree of
transition--a half halt, a change of gait in a green horse, possibly a
schooling figure like a circle to help them balance back again. I don't
use hand for this past being sure I am steady and asking them to step
under to me.
But hey, what do I know. :-)
Sharon:
> How do you get them to avoid BTV when they are "minimizing" the contact?
The riders I saw at the last two Western shows I went to--Penn Jersey
that I posted about and then another one last weekend--the riders seemed
to go behind the judge and then yank their horses up and forward with
the hands. Yuck. This is not how educated people of any ilk ride, of
course, but wannabees.
Cindi
>>> My assumptions are as follows: he can't do a reiner or cutter quality
>>> roll back or spin, and if he's asked to do those things he'll be
>>> considered heavy in the front. I could be wrong. :-) And it doesn't
>>> matter for your purposes since he's not supposed to do those things.
Sue
>> He's a huge horse not a pony or hony of 15 hands or less.
>> I boarded with pretty competitive reiners and there is a darned good
>> reason they do not want big horses. They thought
>> the big h/j horses were appallingly huge, but they understood
>> why we choose the horses we do. And I fully understand
>> why smaller horses are preferable for cutting and reining.
Rain could be a cow pony. The Cowboy said so. :-) But honestly, if
you've not watched the cat quality of upper level jumpers and eventers,
you can't poo poo their quickness. But, that said, different horses for
different courses and they are bred to do specific jobs. It's in many
ways a different kind of quickness. When Belles and I were jumping the
crossrail right before the water, she was unfolding her landing gear
with inordinate haste because she wanted a stride before the water (once
the fence was moved closer she leapt right in without pause). Everyone
was laughing at how fast she hit the ground after the little fence--it
was *quick* but not the same kind of quick.
Sharon
> Smaller horses are per se easier to ride in my opinion,
There is a reason I am searching for lead blankets . . .
Cindi
>>> the reins because they are just too darn used to it - it's the status
>>> quo. So when the riders try to do something, the horse can just
>>> stiffen and ignore and then the rider has to use a lot of muscle to
>>> get the movement done. That is a horse who's been taught to ignore
>>> tension in the reins. And that to me is the definition of front to
>>> back riding. It is not the same thing as being asked for a position
>>> and then being given a release.
Well, that happens if the rider is crap. Just like the crap backyard
yahoo Western folks who populate the parks on weekends around here. If I
judged Western riding by 90% of the locals, I'd say it was for nimwits
who want a horn to hang onto and a big honkin' curb to stop.
I don't use a lot of muscle when riding, at least not in my arms and
shoulders!
Cindi
>>> I have a hard time watching any riding that doesn't result in
>>> ultimately having slack in the reins and thinking of it as proper back
>>> to front riding. Because if you can't let go of the front end and
>>> expect the horse to continue doing whatever it's supposed to be doing,
Well, if you've seen it done right and still have an issue, you don't
know what you are looking at. No one can ride XC on a loose rein with a
big loop. Long with a fluid contact when the terrain requires it, yes.
Sue
>> But it is. Back to front simply means sending the horse forward
>> to a supporting hand. Pulling does not enter into the equation.
Yes. As I said to someone in the clinic today, "no one can ever, ever
PULL a horse straight. You have to let go and kick him straight."
Sue Leopold
> Sue Leopold wrote:
> > Besides, a Western horse does not have to leave a course
> > of 5' and up jumps up. You cannot ride a high level jumper
> > w/o contact. Kevin Babington finally told Donal at Garden
> > State that he had to get Cruiser to "jump into his hand"
> > and then the horse would leave the jumps up. He was
> > right, but what the hell does he know, he only rode
> > successfully in the Olympics. And was asked to keep
> > Liscalgot under tack and jumping when Dermot Lennon
> > was laid up.
>
> Wow I like that "jump into the hand." Sounds like something you could
> really work with. ;)
Donal has been using that with The Nose and the result is more
jumps up at the end of the round. The only rail he had in the
1.30 M at Middlesex was the result of 1) Cruiser counting the
crowd ;-) and 2) Donal missed the set up point coming off
the rail and then gave rein at the jump. I think if he had kept
the horse in his hand he would not have had that jump down.
H/J types call it riding the horse between the leg and the
hand.
> > Betsey avers that western horses *are* ridden in collection.
>
> Or just slow.
Well, from what Betsey has written here, her trainer wants
the horse balanced between the leg and the hand, without
the horse BTV or peanut rolling. I would say it is more
connected than collected, but then again, I don't define
what a jumper does as collection. It is connected and on
the hocks powered from the rear end, but it is not true
collection per se.
> > And you act like that is exclusive to western riding, which is
> > bs in my opinion. No jumper would ever succeed were he/she
> > not infinitely positionable, loose, free and available. The good
> > ones make it look EASY. Find a copy of the tape from the
> > 1984 Olympics and look at the rides of the US riders. *That*
> > is the classic American Jumping Style for which the team
> > was reknowned in the 70s and 80s.
>
> Yeah I think that is probably more important in jumpers than dressage
> where it is of course one of the names of the game. Suppleness and
> relazation are in the pyramid for sure, near the bottom as they are
> foundational.
The goals at the upper levels are different. Dressage aims at
collection as the goal, with jumpers it is more speed and
agility. Both disciplines require strength from the horse.
> > And I'll bet my bottom dollar you have never seen a top-
> > of-the-line, well-schooled show hunter let alone ridden one.
> > They are amazing to ride, you think what you want and then
> > they do it. They are ridden with totally invisible aids; if you
> > show the ride at the big shows you aren't going to get a call.
>
> And the conformation hunters and also very dreamy. :)
Oh yeah.
> > He's a huge horse not a pony or hony of 15 hands or less.
> > I boarded with pretty competitive reiners and there is a
> > darned good reason they do not want big horses. They thought
> > the big h/j horses were appallingly huge, but they understood
> > why we choose the horses we do. And I fully understand
> > why smaller horses are preferable for cutting and reining.
>
> Smaller horses are per se easier to ride in my opinion, given the same
> training. Anyone who has gone from doing easy quarter turns in canter
> (square) just using your lower stomach on a smaller, less trained horse
> to "suddenly" not being able to get more than one step over at a time on
> a more highly trained, larger horse with the identical lower stomach
> muscles will agree. ;)
It is not just that it is easier for a smaller horse to do cutting
and reining properly, it is essential to them being competitive.
A big horse is just not going to give the judges the "look"
they want. Just like big horses with monster strides are the
norm in the competitive dressage court.
>
> I just bought two Wanless books based on ideas of hers I got through
> others that has really mattered in my riding. Like a missing puzzle
> piece. Great books.
Wanless is great! I have "Ride With Your Mind" - would like to
pick up "For The Good Of The Horse" She is one you might
enjoy clinicing with or auditing.
> > There are three types of hands:
> >
> > The pulling hand - I think we all agree that this is always
> > incorrect. :-)
> >
> > The nothing, throwaway hand - which is what you seem to prefer
> > from your posts. That's a fine hand for general pleasure,
> > recreational riding and you will never hurt a horse with it, but
> > you will not educate a horse with it either.
>
> Nor get it off the forehand as far as I can tell.
>
> > The educated hand - this hand supports and follows. A rider
> > with an educated hand does use the bit as a means of
> > communication and to contain the energy sent forward from
> > the rear engine.
> >
> > The educated hand in action;
> >
> > http://lizditz.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/georgemorrisjumping.jpg
> >
> > which is the way jumping should look.
>
> The hand as part of the rein and recycle and "armless" riding is not a
> beginner thing. Wet saddle blankets.
Of course not, that is why it is called the educated hand.
And good instruction I will add.
>
> (snip)
> > You are talking about local-level, poor riding push and pull
> > "dressage riders" whose total thing is getting a headset. You
> > can no more compare that to advanced jumper/dressage/
> > eventing riders than Eileen could have compared the riders
> > at her local show to national level reining and cutting trainers.
> >
> > Geesh.
>
> W.R.T dressage, you don't see consistent correct riding until the upper
> levels and some even say FEI. If she hasn't seen that and had the
> chance to audit many, many hours and ask questions then she won't know.
Agreed, but I have seen good, basic riding with lower level riders
who are taught correctly. They don't always get it right, but they
aren't pushing and pulling the horse about. But some local level
dressage is downright scary. As lower level jumpers can be (a
jumpoff round over a speed bump course can be downright
terrifying, those classes should all be run as optimum time
classes IMO), lower level eventers. And lower level western
as well, including reiners and cutters.
> > Oh. My. God.
>
> Oh. Your. God. :)
LOL. I typed that and thought "sharon will gig me for that."
> > But it is. Back to front simply means sending the horse forward
> > to a supporting hand. Pulling does not enter into the equation.
>
> An elastic contact is elusive to many who try to attain it. It would be
> completely foreign to those not trying to obtain it. There is no
> backward (as opposed to following) aspect to elastic contact. By
> definition.
Yeppers.
cindi
> so I was close anyway...you can dismiss what I say or do _now_ because
> I am not
> pro trainer of cutters or reiners...but if I was I'd see how great
> your guy really is...
I don't get it. I'm not dismissing what you say or do at all. I
can't possibly have to mention here verbally any more than I already
have: what you do is awesome. I didn't see any western colt starting,
nor any reining/cutting training, but fine, thanks for sharing, great,
awesome.
>
> ya see, a salient point you are missing is that yes,...2 .5 yos
> reiners and cutters can get
> hotrodded around like this...
>
> but if they are going to the futurites they have balance,speed,good
> loins and a natural
> inclination for what they do....that someone does this to a draft pony
> is just crazy....
I happen to agree, pretty much and to a degree and with the
understanding that most of that was not how he normally rode her and
was just for the show, which doesn't make it right at all but does
sort of change my perspective since I've seen more than just what the
video shows, but that is not what I was asking about - not that you
aren't free to engage on any sort of thread drift you might wish to,
no problem.
cindi
cindi
> ok ......<throws up hands> you missed the part about _I used to do
> that quite a lot before a son of Smart Chick Olena threw me three
> times in
> 15 min one wondy march day and broke my back in two places_
So sorry you got hurt. Can you talk about how you trained cowhorses,
specifically to spin, roll back, and back circles? I would so love to
see video because I think we often say things differently from how we
are really doing them. But talking is fine if that's all you've
got. ;-)
>
> god...
> what do you want to know??
>
> and try to be specific...
>
> Which is totally no big deal and great and fine and
>
> > awesome.
>
> you can stop being dismissive any time now....
Tamara, I am sorry that emotions can't come across in this forum very
well. I am most definitely not trying to be dismissive, I most
definitely want to hear what you have to say, I don't mind at all if
things venture from the original specific topic although I might point
it out if it seems like somebody says "there's your answer" when I
don't see how it's an answer at all.
> it was disbanded in 07 <?> it was for a long time the only full color
> glossy
> gaited mag there was....it was Titled "In a Spin" and featured a
> versatility
> champion from TX for the photos
Cool. Did you save any copies? I don't want to ask you to do
something that would involve being in love with yourself ;-) but if
you could scan it and show it to people, I'm sure I'm not the only one
here who'd love to see it.
cindi
cindi
> You cannot ride a high level jumper
> w/o contact.
Totally agreed. But you CAN ride a cutter without contact, and in
fact it's required while you're working the cow. So I'm talking about
the training to get to that point. A jumper does not have training to
get to that point because he never needs to get to that point. And
vice versa.
> Ask any eventer if they ride x/c on a loop. Not likely.
I am certainly not saying eventers or jumpers should ride with loopy
reins.
>
> Comparing these disciplines is apples and oranges.
> MHO.
I think I've said that myself several times in this thread.
> But then, you equate hunter/jumper, dressage and
> combined training with the dink-around just-for-fun
> "english' riding that you do on your farm. And with
> local-yokel push-and-pull dressage as practiced
> in what *you* have described as an equestrian
> wasteland. You have not been exposed to advanced
> competitive riding in "english" tack.
Not true.
>
> For you it is reining/cutting uber alles. And that's
> fine, but as whatshername :-) has said in the past
> no one discipline is the alpha and omega of all
> that is equestrian art.
Let me make a point clear that is apparently not clear: I do not
think reining and cutting are the end all be all. They are just
reining and cutting.
> Finished western horses are ridden in leveraged bits with
> reins that are significantly heavier than your garden
> variety "english" *That* defines the contact - you have
> contact but the leverage lessens the ounces of contact
> considerably.
We don't ride them like that - we ride most of our finished western
horses in a snaffle. Some in a halter. Sometimes with no bridle.
There is certainly no weight of the reins in that scenario. So do
lots of cutting/reining trainers. I wonder if there's a video of Leon
Harrel cutting bareback and bridleless a few years ago at the Horse
Expo. That horse was trained just like Dylan trains.
> Right. But that's my point - how you train a reiner and
> cutter would not be appropriate IME for a hunter, jumper,
> dressage or event horse.
I'm not saying it is. In fact I'm pretty much saying it isn't. I'm
pretty much saying the way it's done is the way it needs to be done to
obtain the finished product. And I'm asking if anybody knows of
anything I can go check out that shows it being done a different
way.
> > If an English horse was ridden like that with the goal of trying to
> > get them collected, yes, front to back. But what the western guys are
> > doing is not trying to collect them. They are trying to ensure that
> > all their body parts are infinitely positionable, loose and free and
> > available.
>
> Betsey avers that western horses *are* ridden in collection.
Of course they are and can be. I didn't say they are not. I said all
the rein stuff you see going on is not to get collection, it's to get
an infinitely positionable nose/poll/neck/shoulders. Then when they
add leg and drive the horse up into that, that's when they are working
on collection, and eventually the western horse can be collected (for
his body type and ability) on a draped rein.
> And not one of your reining/cutting trained horses could even
> remotely do what Cruiser does.
Um, yeah. Apples and oranges, yes?
> IIRC I did not "ding" your trainer, I simply meant in my post
> that what is correct colt-starting for your discipline probably
> won't work for mine.
That's what I'm trying to talk about, so thanks. We can say don't
hold, don't pull, open her up and let her go somewhere, etc etc etc,
but what he does works for what he wants for the end result.
> There are three types of hands:
>
> The pulling hand - I think we all agree that this is always
> incorrect. :-)
But we don't - the reiners and cutters definitely pull. They might
pull tactfully, with an easy way of taking out whatever slack is
present and then an easy way of pulling, or they might pull in a
jarring fashion, which is worse of course. But they most definitely
pull. In slow work they might get away with drawer-lemon but when
things get fast or when the horse doesn't "give", they most definitely
pull. Is it bad? Is there another way to train those horses for that
task? That's my question.
> The nothing, throwaway hand - which is what you seem to prefer
> from your posts. That's a fine hand for general pleasure,
> recreational riding and you will never hurt a horse with it, but
> you will not educate a horse with it either.
I don't prefer a throwaway hand unless I'm on a horse who doesn't need
the hand, or for moments when I don't need to ask for a change with
the hand... I might say I prefer a horse who can wind up eventually
doing everything with very little rein. But at all times, when the
horse needs education, the hand has to educate and can no longer just
sit there attached to a loop doing nothing much.
Take Stacy Westfall - is her bareback bridleless championship ride an
example of a thrown away hand?
> The educated hand - this hand supports and follows. A rider
> with an educated hand does use the bit as a means of
> communication and to contain the energy sent forward from
> the rear engine.
Yes.
> What the *hell* makes you think that h/j, dressage and
> combined training riders are 'letting the horse charge
> around with his body parts in the wrong position ?"
Some do. Not all. Some people ride crappy as reiners and cutters
too.
> You are talking about local-level, poor riding push and pull
> "dressage riders" whose total thing is getting a headset. You
> can no more compare that to advanced jumper/dressage/
> eventing riders than Eileen could have compared the riders
> at her local show to national level reining and cutting trainers.
What I'm talking about is I wish Parelli or Clinton Anderson or Dennis
Reis would enter a dressage show.
> > the reins because they are just too darn used to it - it's the status
> > quo. So when the riders try to do something, the horse can just
> > stiffen and ignore and then the rider has to use a lot of muscle to
> > get the movement done. That is a horse who's been taught to ignore
> > tension in the reins. And that to me is the definition of front to
> > back riding. It is not the same thing as being asked for a position
> > and then being given a release.
>
> Oh. My. God.
>
> > I have a hard time watching any riding that doesn't result in
> > ultimately having slack in the reins and thinking of it as proper back
> > to front riding. Because if you can't let go of the front end and
> > expect the horse to continue doing whatever it's supposed to be doing,
>
> But it is. Back to front simply means sending the horse forward
> to a supporting hand. Pulling does not enter into the equation.
To me, back to front means asking the engine to engage before trying
to do anything with the front of the horse. It means allowing the
pelvis to tip under and the joints to bend and the back to come up,
and waiting for those events to cause the face to become more on the
vertical. It means trying to get, say, collection, by sending the
back end up to the front end as opposed to slowing the front end and
hoping the back will catch up. I think that's pretty much all stuff
you'd agree with. But eventually, in western, it means asking the
engine to engage without having to do much at all with the front - no
supporting hand at all. And when the western trainers ask for the
nose to tip this way and that way, they are not trying to get
collection, they are simply teaching the horse to allow the position
of his nose to be manipulated. They don't do that and then just sit
there and hope that it will cause collection, simply to have the nose
in a certain position. Collection will evolve, and will be asked for
when the horse is ready, and asked for with the seat and legs.
John Lyons promotes "ride the tail", which is a way of describing
riding back to front, where he steers the tail instead of the nose/
shoulders. He does, however, position the nose/shoulders - he simply
tries to get folks to understand that you should position and then
send with energy from behind, as opposed to dragging a horse into a
manuever. But to effectively position the nose/poll/neck/shoulders,
he does the same thing all these other dudes I'm talking about do. He
might be a tad more tactful most of the time than some of them. He at
least tries to get people to start with "baby gives" instead of huge
gives.
So I'm just trying to say: English and western horses will eventually
be expected to be able to collect. I don't think all the head
manipulation you see the western trainers do has anything to do with
them trying to get collection. I'm figuring most well trained English
horses get to the point of being able to be collected without doing
most of those flexion type things (although you do see a lot of them
winding up going to clinicians like Chris Cox and Clinton Anderson to
fix up issues of being stiff and "hard mouthed"... not that all
English riding winds up that way, of course.)
> Look, it's a different discipline. *Totally* different. There is a
> hell of a lot of difference between riding a jumper course with
> related distances, striding options and riding a frickin' reining
> pattern that ...
I totally agree... I'm not saying all you jumpers should be training
your horses like reiners train (although it might be a cool
experiment...)
Hmm, the rest of your post isn't showing so I'm going to press send on
this and try to get the rest. Thanks for the reply!
cindi
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
cindi
>
> Look, it's a different discipline. *Totally* different. There is a
> hell of a lot of difference between riding a jumper course with
> related distances, striding options and riding a frickin' reining
> pattern that never changes. For crying out loud.
Well there are like ten of them, so they change a little bit. ;-)
> If Donal could ride a jumper course on a looped rein off his
> eye for a distance, you better believe he would. Actually, he
> could ride Choccie up to Level 5 (4'0") that way - after that
> the courses bit the horse and him in the ass. The technical
> questions came up too quickly - and that was the only way
> Choccie liked to be ridden so ultimately, despite his scope
> and technique, he failed to move up.
I don't mind anything about how jumpers have to be trained or ridden.
I don't care or mind if they can't go on a loopy rein.
> All trainers train for a particular purpose. What is right for one
> discipline is not necessarily right for another.
Absolutely agreed. Now back to my original question: Does anybody
know of any western trainers who train for cutting, reining or working
cowhorse, who do not look essentially exactly like Dylan when they do,
particularly in his other videos you can find on my youtube page, not
so much like the gypsy video? If so, I would love to see it!
take care all
cindi
Madeline Rockwell
On Jul 3, 8:13 am, Ocean of Nuance <lizRMOVzardwo...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> Soft comes from balance. Great way to put it.
>Now that is something I don't believe in general. I believe just the
>opposite, actually.
>cindi
What a stunning statement. Not a big surprise, but stunning nonetheless.
madeline
Sue Leopold
> On Jul 3, 6:42 pm, svleop...@earthlink.net (Sue Leopold) wrote:
>
> > You cannot ride a high level jumper
> > w/o contact.
>
> Totally agreed. But you CAN ride a cutter without contact, and in
> fact it's required while you're working the cow. So I'm talking about
> the training to get to that point. A jumper does not have training to
> get to that point because he never needs to get to that point. And
> vice versa.
OK, it took a bunch of posts but I think we're on the same page
here. :-)
> > Comparing these disciplines is apples and oranges.
> > MHO.
>
> I think I've said that myself several times in this thread.
Yup.
>
> > But then, you equate hunter/jumper, dressage and
> > combined training with the dink-around just-for-fun
> > "english' riding that you do on your farm. And with
> > local-yokel push-and-pull dressage as practiced
> > in what *you* have described as an equestrian
> > wasteland. You have not been exposed to advanced
> > competitive riding in "english" tack.
>
> Not true.
You do come across that way many times. Just sayin',
this is not a perfect form of communication.
> Let me make a point clear that is apparently not clear: I do not
> think reining and cutting are the end all be all. They are just
> reining and cutting.
But they are not the only road to a horse that is light and
responsive to invisible aids. Honestly, show hunters are
all that (well, the properly trained ones are, but we can
say that about any discipline) I wish you could sit on one,
but I can't imagine what a jumping saddle would do to
your hips!
> We don't ride them like that - we ride most of our finished western
> horses in a snaffle. Some in a halter. Sometimes with no bridle.
> There is certainly no weight of the reins in that scenario. So do
> lots of cutting/reining trainers. I wonder if there's a video of Leon
> Harrel cutting bareback and bridleless a few years ago at the Horse
> Expo. That horse was trained just like Dylan trains.
I could and did ride any of the horses we bred and started on
the buckle, regulating gait, direction, etc all by seat and legs.
My preferred method of coolout was with the reins laying on
the neck.
When I rode with Ralph Hill we jumped without reins, but
through gymnastics (grids) that set the horse's stride up.
> > And not one of your reining/cutting trained horses could even
> > remotely do what Cruiser does.
>
> Um, yeah. Apples and oranges, yes?
I said upper level jumpers are amazingly agile and quick
for large, strong horses. You responded by saying Cruiser
was heavy and clunky, neither of which is true if you actually
sat on the horse. So a h/j trainer would say your horses have
zero scope. Tit for tat.
> > IIRC I did not "ding" your trainer, I simply meant in my post
> > that what is correct colt-starting for your discipline probably
> > won't work for mine.
>
> That's what I'm trying to talk about, so thanks. We can say don't
> hold, don't pull, open her up and let her go somewhere, etc etc etc,
> but what he does works for what he wants for the end result.
MHO, the vanner (tinker horses as Donal calls 'em) is incredibly
unsuitable for that sort of riding. They are drafters designed
for pulling, not a discipline that favors catty, agile small horses.
> > There are three types of hands:
> >
> > The pulling hand - I think we all agree that this is always
> > incorrect. :-)
>
> But we don't - the reiners and cutters definitely pull. They might
> pull tactfully, with an easy way of taking out whatever slack is
> present and then an easy way of pulling, or they might pull in a
> jarring fashion, which is worse of course. But they most definitely
> pull. In slow work they might get away with drawer-lemon but when
> things get fast or when the horse doesn't "give", they most definitely
> pull. Is it bad? Is there another way to train those horses for that
> task? That's my question.
You're wrong about the definition of the pulling hand - it's a hand
that pulls and *never* releases. That's not what you've described
at all. Under my definition, it is always incorrect.
> > The nothing, throwaway hand - which is what you seem to prefer
> > from your posts. That's a fine hand for general pleasure,
> > recreational riding and you will never hurt a horse with it, but
> > you will not educate a horse with it either.
>
> I don't prefer a throwaway hand unless I'm on a horse who doesn't need
> the hand, or for moments when I don't need to ask for a change with
> the hand... I might say I prefer a horse who can wind up eventually
> doing everything with very little rein. But at all times, when the
> horse needs education, the hand has to educate and can no longer just
> sit there attached to a loop doing nothing much.
You cannot ride with an educated hand on a horse that is
bumped off the bit and is trained to eschew contact with the
mouth. No way.
> Take Stacy Westfall - is her bareback bridleless championship ride an
> example of a thrown away hand?
I'll let this go because there is some stuff circulating out there
about the methods used to achieve that ride. Sorry, not a fan.
> > The educated hand - this hand supports and follows. A rider
> > with an educated hand does use the bit as a means of
> > communication and to contain the energy sent forward from
> > the rear engine.
>
> Yes.
But you cannot do this with a horse who has been backed off
the hand by bumping him/her off the bit. In one post you say
you don't have to cycle the energy from behind, now you're
saying you do (that's what containing the energy sent forward
from the rear means)
>
> > What the *hell* makes you think that h/j, dressage and
> > combined training riders are 'letting the horse charge
> > around with his body parts in the wrong position ?"
>
> Some do. Not all. Some people ride crappy as reiners and cutters
> too.
Sure, crappy ones. I thought we were talking about upper level
riders here.
>
> > You are talking about local-level, poor riding push and pull
> > "dressage riders" whose total thing is getting a headset. You
> > can no more compare that to advanced jumper/dressage/
> > eventing riders than Eileen could have compared the riders
> > at her local show to national level reining and cutting trainers.
>
> What I'm talking about is I wish Parelli or Clinton Anderson or Dennis
> Reis would enter a dressage show.
I'd love to see the score sheet on those. No, hell, I'd like to scribe
for the judge. My goodness, even Anky van G took reining lessons;
she didn't have the hubris to think she could just pop up one
day in a completely different discipline and excel.
Do you think any of those guys could jump a 4'0 plus jumper
course out of the blue and get around, let alone leave the
jumps up? I don't think so and I daresay neither do you. So
what makes you think dressage is so easy that they could
just ride an upper level test and do so accurately and correctly?
> > But it is. Back to front simply means sending the horse forward
> > to a supporting hand. Pulling does not enter into the equation.
>
> To me, back to front means asking the engine to engage before trying
> to do anything with the front of the horse. It means allowing the
> pelvis to tip under and the joints to bend and the back to come up,
> and waiting for those events to cause the face to become more on the
> vertical. It means trying to get, say, collection, by sending the
> back end up to the front end as opposed to slowing the front end and
> hoping the back will catch up. I think that's pretty much all stuff
Yes. It is exactly what we do.
> you'd agree with. But eventually, in western, it means asking the
> engine to engage without having to do much at all with the front - no
> supporting hand at all. And when the western trainers ask for the
> nose to tip this way and that way, they are not trying to get
> collection, they are simply teaching the horse to allow the position
> of his nose to be manipulated. They don't do that and then just sit
> there and hope that it will cause collection, simply to have the nose
> in a certain position. Collection will evolve, and will be asked for
> when the horse is ready, and asked for with the seat and legs.
OK, I get that. I don't get all this nose positioning stuff; we teach
our horses to bend through their ribcage - the nose position has
zero to do with that.
> > Look, it's a different discipline. *Totally* different. There is a
> > hell of a lot of difference between riding a jumper course with
> > related distances, striding options and riding a frickin' reining
> > pattern that ...
>
> I totally agree... I'm not saying all you jumpers should be training
> your horses like reiners train (although it might be a cool
> experiment...)
You'll never get above level 0 doing it that way. I'd bet on
that. You can probably get a horse around a low level course
trained that way but you'll have tons of rails in combinations
and lines. You might be able to do a show hunter though. Try
that experiment first before you tackle the jumper ring.
Interesting discussion.
Sue, with the cat Olympics going on beside her
sveo...@earthlink.net
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Leopold) wrote:
snip
>Finished western horses are ridden in leveraged bits with
>reins that are significantly heavier than your garden
>variety "english" *That* defines the contact - you have
>contact but the leverage lessens the ounces of contact
>considerably.
Uh--Sue?
Re the weight of the rein--you're starting to seriously creep into an
area you don't know. It all depends upon the tack. And the stiffness
of the rein. Judging from the English reins I've handled (and are
hanging in my tack locker as rejects by Miss Mocha), the rolled stiff
rein affects the contact on a snaffle as much as a standard Western
split rein or romal on a curb.
There are cheap romals that are heavy and stiff. There are expensive
romals which are more pliable than web reins, and about the same
weight.
>
>MHO, the difference to the horse between a thrown
>away rein in a curb and a horse in a plain snaffle with
>educated hands is probably nil.
Uh-uh. As someone who rides in both sets of tack, *on the same
horse*, properly trained, there's a difference.
>> I don't have a problem with that. I say that all the time here. But
>> it's not how you can train a reiner or a cutter.
>
>Right. But that's my point - how you train a reiner and
>cutter would not be appropriate IME for a hunter, jumper,
>dressage or event horse.
No, but some of it could very well be useful.
snip
>The nothing, throwaway hand - which is what you seem to prefer
>from your posts. That's a fine hand for general pleasure,
>recreational riding and you will never hurt a horse with it, but
>you will not educate a horse with it either.
It's not correct for western, either.
snip
>eye for a distance, you better believe he would. Actually, he
>could ride Choccie up to Level 5 (4'0") that way - after that
>the courses bit the horse and him in the ass. The technical
>questions came up too quickly - and that was the only way
>Choccie liked to be ridden so ultimately, despite his scope
>and technique, he failed to move up.
Even a reining bred horse starts to get the idea that jumping means a
bit more energy and power. The little putzing around I'm doing with
Mocha is a fine line between rushy and tense and getting too mellow. I
don't want to create a horse who rushes the fence, but she does need
to know to pick up the energy.
Fortunately, for her, there's a cue which is universal across Western
correction curb, KK Ultra snaffle, or sidepull--I take up a contact.
She knows that means work, and responds accordingly.
>There is nothing particularly technical about a reining pattern.
>It's a pattern, you get the pattern down and habituate the
>horse to it. You don't have a course designer building tricks
>to have rails so he gets his desired 6-8 clean out of a class
>of 30.
Um--actually, you don't want to habituate for any pattern class. In
reining or Western Riding, just like dressage, you don't want the
horse to anticipate your request.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<lizRMOVz...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
snip
>How do you ever get them off their forehand?
Same as anyone else. Lots of transitions, lots of seat and leg.
>How do you get them to avoid BTV when they are "minimizing" the contact?
Soften your hand.
>The trick is to get them OUT to the hand and working along their
>topline. How is that done when they are taught to minimize contact?
Seat and leg.
snip
>Or just slow.
The offer of a Western lesson at my barn, with my trainer, exists.
snip
>Smaller horses are per se easier to ride in my opinion, given the same
>training. Anyone who has gone from doing easy quarter turns in canter
>(square) just using your lower stomach on a smaller, less trained horse
>to "suddenly" not being able to get more than one step over at a time on
>a more highly trained, larger horse with the identical lower stomach
>muscles will agree. ;)
Heh. Let's do some rollbacks and see you say this.
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>But to paraphrase another even bigger name person (this one...Richard
>Shrake)---he is very good friends with my friend, so it's neat to meet
>and talk to the man. his comment regarding what goes on at expos-
>getting on the horse while it's laying down, standing on the
>horse....in his opinion, NOT at all natural horsemanship, or even
>horsemanship...but what horse "gyps" (traders) have been doing for
>centuries "look at this nice quiet horse, it will even lay down so i
>can get on it"....but not really be trained.
Richard would know. His family's been in the horse training business
for at least two generations.
jrw
cindi
> cindi <allisonac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I could and did ride any of the horses we bred and started on
> the buckle, regulating gait, direction, etc all by seat and legs.
> My preferred method of coolout was with the reins laying on
> the neck.
Yes, and so did Tonja Dausend when she rode for me here. But can you
do a rollback on a cow like that? Can you do a spin? I'm definitely
not saying "no other horses can ever be ridden on loose reins."
> I said upper level jumpers are amazingly agile and quick
> for large, strong horses. You responded by saying Cruiser
> was heavy and clunky, neither of which is true if you actually
> sat on the horse. So a h/j trainer would say your horses have
> zero scope. Tit for tat.
Not sure I said clunky, but I did say heavy on the forehand... Just
try this, we don't need no steenkin' reining trainer for this demo:
Get on Cruiser and pull both reins back to your, say, left hip. Let
me know what he does. A reiner will practically flip over backwards
to "follow the feel", "get off the contact", whatever you want to call
it. I'm betting Cruiser will do less than practically flip over
backwards. This can be a thought experiment if you don't want to
really do it. ;-)
> MHO, the vanner (tinker horses as Donal calls 'em) is incredibly
> unsuitable for that sort of riding. They are drafters designed
> for pulling, not a discipline that favors catty, agile small horses.
Totally agreed. I thought she showed a lot of heart. I do not think
she'll continue to be ridden like that.
> You're wrong about the definition of the pulling hand - it's a hand
> that pulls and *never* releases. That's not what you've described
> at all. Under my definition, it is always incorrect.
OH, well then, we have a point of agreement then. :-) Pulls should
be released at the right moment.
> You cannot ride with an educated hand on a horse that is
> bumped off the bit and is trained to eschew contact with the
> mouth. No way.
Well, no, you can, you just have to be way more light about it.
Finished reiners get "picked up on", even put back into a snaffle bit,
for schooling, all the time. You have to do that to keep them bumped
off the bit. Training them to go like that is not like just flipping
a switch. It has to be maintained. It is maintained by putting them
into situations where they are reminded how to work to stay off the
bit.
>
> > Take Stacy Westfall - is her bareback bridleless championship ride an
> > example of a thrown away hand?
>
> I'll let this go because there is some stuff circulating out there
> about the methods used to achieve that ride. Sorry, not a fan.
I have watched all her stuff and saw her at the horse expo. I don't
know what you might be talking about. I didn't like some of her
training methods but only because I found them not necessarily useful
for anything other than a horse on the road to being able to be ridden
bridleless. I didn't see anything bad or abusive.
>
> > > The educated hand - this hand supports and follows. A rider
> > > with an educated hand does use the bit as a means of
> > > communication and to contain the energy sent forward from
> > > the rear engine.
>
> > Yes.
>
> But you cannot do this with a horse who has been backed off
> the hand by bumping him/her off the bit. In one post you say
> you don't have to cycle the energy from behind, now you're
> saying you do (that's what containing the energy sent forward
> from the rear means)
Sorry, I'm conflating two things: An educated hand for an English
horse and an educated hand for a western one. Even western horses are
started with contact - not as constant, not as always there, and they
are trained to respond differently to it, but they are started with
having the energy captured. An educated hand for a finished western
horse simply properly and tactfully educates the horse to continue
maintaining his training. Parelli calls it a concentrated rein versus
a casual rein. But you are right - it is not the same as an English
educated hand.
> I'd love to see the score sheet on those. No, hell, I'd like to scribe
> for the judge. My goodness, even Anky van G took reining lessons;
> she didn't have the hubris to think she could just pop up one
> day in a completely different discipline and excel.
Parelli apparently has just gone off the cuff and jumped a course at
demos and stuff. A bunch of his students do dressage. I'm planning on
having Allison do an intro or training level dressage test on Q for me
to video even if she won't actually go do it at a real show - you guys
can be the judges. I definitely think the horses' movement scores
would not be as good as a bigger moving horse. Their obedience scores
might be good.
>
> Do you think any of those guys could jump a 4'0 plus jumper
> course out of the blue and get around, let alone leave the
> jumps up? I don't think so and I daresay neither do you.
Well not on their cowhorses... ;-) On a jumper, sure.
> So
> what makes you think dressage is so easy that they could
> just ride an upper level test and do so accurately and correctly?
I definitely do NOT think dressage or jumping is easy, not at all. I
do wonder about the applicability of reining training methods, at
least in the colt starting phase, for such future work.
> OK, I get that. I don't get all this nose positioning stuff; we teach
> our horses to bend through their ribcage - the nose position has
> zero to do with that.
Here's I think a difference: when something happens very fast like
working cows, at speed, chances are better a horse will go where he's
supposed to go if his nose will go in that direction first. So it's
important to have control of the nose. (Don't tell The Nose. :-)
But even in the very technical jumpers courses, no horse actually has
to do a rollback and then take a jump... It's a tight turn but it's
not a cowhorse style rollback. Plus there is a huge emphasis on
training the horse to watch the cow, and you flat out have to be able
to position that nose to get that, since they watch with the fronts of
their faces, not their ribcages...
> You'll never get above level 0 doing it that way. I'd bet on
> that. You can probably get a horse around a low level course
> trained that way but you'll have tons of rails in combinations
> and lines. You might be able to do a show hunter though. Try
> that experiment first before you tackle the jumper ring.
Maybe dressage but not jumping. :-)
> Interesting discussion.
Yes!
cindi
Sue Leopold
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:42:03 -0400, svle...@earthlink.net (Sue
> Leopold) wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >Finished western horses are ridden in leveraged bits with
> >reins that are significantly heavier than your garden
> >variety "english" *That* defines the contact - you have
> >contact but the leverage lessens the ounces of contact
> >considerably.
>
> Uh--Sue?
>
> Re the weight of the rein--you're starting to seriously creep into an
> area you don't know. It all depends upon the tack. And the stiffness
So what about the reins that are sold with weights sewn into
them? Or are they like studded nosebands - used as a
gimmick?
> of the rein. Judging from the English reins I've handled (and are
> hanging in my tack locker as rejects by Miss Mocha), the rolled stiff
> rein affects the contact on a snaffle as much as a standard Western
> split rein or romal on a curb.
That's not the type of rein we use. They are light, soft and flexible.
>
> There are cheap romals that are heavy and stiff. There are expensive
> romals which are more pliable than web reins, and about the same
> weight.
OK, I did not know that.
We don't use web reins btw, I find them too stiff.
>
> >
> >MHO, the difference to the horse between a thrown
> >away rein in a curb and a horse in a plain snaffle with
> >educated hands is probably nil.
>
> Uh-uh. As someone who rides in both sets of tack, *on the same
> horse*, properly trained, there's a difference.
I should have said in terms of comfort to the horse. I don't
deny that the feel is different.
>
> >> I don't have a problem with that. I say that all the time here. But
> >> it's not how you can train a reiner or a cutter.
> >
> >Right. But that's my point - how you train a reiner and
> >cutter would not be appropriate IME for a hunter, jumper,
> >dressage or event horse.
>
> No, but some of it could very well be useful.
Teaching the horse to get behind the bit as cindi describes
most assuredly would not be useful when jumping a good-
sized course.
There's a lot more similarity between the way you were
taught to start a horse and the way I was taught to start
a horse than how cindi's trainer starts a horse. I am
basing that on what you have written about your childhood
mentor.
>
> snip
>
> >The nothing, throwaway hand - which is what you seem to prefer
> >from your posts. That's a fine hand for general pleasure,
> >recreational riding and you will never hurt a horse with it, but
> >you will not educate a horse with it either.
>
> It's not correct for western, either.
Judging from your posts here, I didn't think so. I never said
a correct western rider uses a throwaway hand.
>
> snip
>
> >eye for a distance, you better believe he would. Actually, he
> >could ride Choccie up to Level 5 (4'0") that way - after that
> >the courses bit the horse and him in the ass. The technical
> >questions came up too quickly - and that was the only way
> >Choccie liked to be ridden so ultimately, despite his scope
> >and technique, he failed to move up.
>
> Even a reining bred horse starts to get the idea that jumping means a
> bit more energy and power. The little putzing around I'm doing with
> Mocha is a fine line between rushy and tense and getting too mellow. I
> don't want to create a horse who rushes the fence, but she does need
> to know to pick up the energy.
But that's not the point. The point is, as you move up the levels
in the jumpers the course designers up the ante on the technical
aspects of the course design. The horse must be able to
adjust the length of his stride, frequently dramatically, in
a short period of time - usually a handful of strides. The jumps
become more and more careful. To be successful, the horse
must accept the hand not be floating behind it having been
trained to back off the bit by being pulled off it repeatedly.
Not saying you train like this, heck I'm pretty sure you do not.
>
> Fortunately, for her, there's a cue which is universal across Western
> correction curb, KK Ultra snaffle, or sidepull--I take up a contact.
> She knows that means work, and responds accordingly.
Cool.
> >There is nothing particularly technical about a reining pattern.
> >It's a pattern, you get the pattern down and habituate the
> >horse to it. You don't have a course designer building tricks
> >to have rails so he gets his desired 6-8 clean out of a class
> >of 30.
>
> Um--actually, you don't want to habituate for any pattern class. In
> reining or Western Riding, just like dressage, you don't want the
> horse to anticipate your request.
OK, that makes sense. But there is a finite number of patterns,
just as there are a finite number of tests in dressage. Jumper
classes, at least on the big AA circuit, are never the same from
week to week let alone day to day. Every course designer
puts his or her own wrinkle on the course.
And I'm not down on reining or western riding at all. I'm just
saying that riding jumpers is substantially different and a
lot of it is due to the wide variation in course design. Also,
the venues and rings themselves can vary widely in
size and footing. There is no standard jumper ring a la
a dressage court.
Are reining patterns set up in fixed dimensions? I'm
curious.
cindi
> Normally, if I have a horse get heavy up front, I do some degree of
> transition--a half halt, a change of gait in a green horse, possibly a
> schooling figure like a circle to help them balance back again. I don't
> use hand for this past being sure I am steady and asking them to step
> under to me.
>
> But hey, what do I know. :-)
A lot, for how you ride. :-)
> The riders I saw at the last two Western shows I went to--Penn Jersey
> that I posted about and then another one last weekend--the riders seemed
> to go behind the judge and then yank their horses up and forward with
> the hands. Yuck. This is not how educated people of any ilk ride, of
> course, but wannabees.
Well you might have an argument with some world class riders. Here's
Andrea Fappani on fixing things without the judge seeing you. I mean,
doesn't pretty much everybody do things like that? Just like trying
not to do bad things in front of the cop when you're driving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXqrWhW9BJI
Personally I get so happy when I see a rider take the time to work,
tactfully, on whatever issue came up while showing, and forfeit a good
score. But it doesn't happen often when big money is involved. You
are there to win, and you want the judge to see the good stuff and not
see the bad stuff.
> Well, that happens if the rider is crap. Just like the crap backyard
> yahoo Western folks who populate the parks on weekends around here. If I
> judged Western riding by 90% of the locals, I'd say it was for nimwits
> who want a horn to hang onto and a big honkin' curb to stop.
For the record: most riding sucks, western and English. IMO. ;-)
And of course everybody has room for improvement.
> I don't use a lot of muscle when riding, at least not in my arms and
> shoulders!
Awesome.
> Well, if you've seen it done right and still have an issue, you don't
> know what you are looking at. No one can ride XC on a loose rein with a
> big loop. Long with a fluid contact when the terrain requires it, yes.
Fluid contact is great.
cindi
cindi
> Teaching the horse to get behind the bit as cindi describes
> most assuredly would not be useful when jumping a good-
> sized course.
I dunno... Things always break down a bit at speed, so when you have a
horse who works to avoid bit pressure, you have more control at
speed. With the very good riders you'll see in these upper level
events, they are doing fine without this sort of control/response.
But I'd love to see how it crosses over. Until you've ridden a reiner
or a cutter and seen what all you can get done with that attitude, it
might be hard to visualize. Course maybe it's entirely unnecessary -
I've never ridden an upper level jumper so it might be hard for me to
visualize. :-) But I'm curious about the crossover.
> To be successful, the horse
> must accept the hand not be floating behind it having been
> trained to back off the bit by being pulled off it repeatedly.
Stuff that happens that fast that requires rein input is best done on
a short rein - takes too much time to take it up. Reiners train
basically two speeds: fast and slow. They mostly make that change on
a finished horse with upper body position only. The rate changes,
adding strides, taking out strides, that jumpers have to do is more
complicated. It would be very unwieldy to try to do that on a loopy
rein.
However, you might be exaggerating a bit with your ideas of how a
western horse reacts to the bit. You don't want them scared of it,
and you don't want them sucked back in anticipation of it. You do
just want them to go, "OK, here it comes, allow me to just position
myself appropriately before you need to say that any, er, louder."
> Are reining patterns set up in fixed dimensions? I'm
> curious.
No, you just use whatever arena space you have, but you do create
points such as the center, 50 feet off the ends, etc. Here they are:
http://www.nrha.com/patterns.asp
cindi
Sue Leopold
> On Jul 3, 11:38 pm, svleop...@earthlink.net (Sue Leopold) wrote:
> > cindi <allisonac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I could and did ride any of the horses we bred and started on
> > the buckle, regulating gait, direction, etc all by seat and legs.
> > My preferred method of coolout was with the reins laying on
> > the neck.
>
> Yes, and so did Tonja Dausend when she rode for me here. But can you
> do a rollback on a cow like that? Can you do a spin? I'm definitely
> not saying "no other horses can ever be ridden on loose reins."
They aren't built for spins and rollbacks, so no.
I did ride a reining-trained horse once (she sort of flunked out
of reining school though, not feisty enough apparently) - I
thought she was cool. :-)
>
> > I said upper level jumpers are amazingly agile and quick
> > for large, strong horses. You responded by saying Cruiser
> > was heavy and clunky, neither of which is true if you actually
> > sat on the horse. So a h/j trainer would say your horses have
> > zero scope. Tit for tat.
>
> Not sure I said clunky, but I did say heavy on the forehand... Just
Huh? That horse is built decidedly uphill and has an uphill
canter. If you can't see that he is more off his forehand than
a stockhorse, you seriously need some help in the gait
evaluation department.
But don't take my word for it; that was Kevin Babington's
evaluation of the horse. But what the hell does he know.
You don't jump Level 6 heavy on the forehand. Those that
do so are considered great ambassadors for the local
lumberyard. :-D
> try this, we don't need no steenkin' reining trainer for this demo:
> Get on Cruiser and pull both reins back to your, say, left hip. Let
> me know what he does. A reiner will practically flip over backwards
> to "follow the feel", "get off the contact", whatever you want to call
> it. I'm betting Cruiser will do less than practically flip over
> backwards. This can be a thought experiment if you don't want to
> really do it. ;-)
He's probably guess and do a turn on the haunch as that's
the closest he could get from what he has been trained to
do.
He'd also roll his eyes because he would be confused at
what the rider is doing.
>
> > MHO, the vanner (tinker horses as Donal calls 'em) is incredibly
> > unsuitable for that sort of riding. They are drafters designed
> > for pulling, not a discipline that favors catty, agile small horses.
>
> Totally agreed. I thought she showed a lot of heart. I do not think
> she'll continue to be ridden like that.
That's good. I hate demos btw.
>
> > You're wrong about the definition of the pulling hand - it's a hand
> > that pulls and *never* releases. That's not what you've described
> > at all. Under my definition, it is always incorrect.
>
> OH, well then, we have a point of agreement then. :-) Pulls should
> be released at the right moment.
Amen.
>
> > > Take Stacy Westfall - is her bareback bridleless championship ride an
> > > example of a thrown away hand?
> >
> > I'll let this go because there is some stuff circulating out there
> > about the methods used to achieve that ride. Sorry, not a fan.
>
> I have watched all her stuff and saw her at the horse expo. I don't
> know what you might be talking about. I didn't like some of her
> training methods but only because I found them not necessarily useful
> for anything other than a horse on the road to being able to be ridden
> bridleless. I didn't see anything bad or abusive.
I am way cynical because I have seen too much of what goes
on at 2 am at the shows. And also had a mentor who always
asked when trying a horse "OK, where's the jump he won't
jump?"
> Sorry, I'm conflating two things: An educated hand for an English
> horse and an educated hand for a western one. Even western horses are
> started with contact - not as constant, not as always there, and they
> are trained to respond differently to it, but they are started with
> having the energy captured. An educated hand for a finished western
> horse simply properly and tactfully educates the horse to continue
> maintaining his training. Parelli calls it a concentrated rein versus
> a casual rein. But you are right - it is not the same as an English
> educated hand.
OK
>
> > I'd love to see the score sheet on those. No, hell, I'd like to scribe
> > for the judge. My goodness, even Anky van G took reining lessons;
> > she didn't have the hubris to think she could just pop up one
> > day in a completely different discipline and excel.
>
> Parelli apparently has just gone off the cuff and jumped a course at
Poorly from all I have heard.
> demos and stuff. A bunch of his students do dressage. I'm planning on
> having Allison do an intro or training level dressage test on Q for me
> to video even if she won't actually go do it at a real show - you guys
> can be the judges. I definitely think the horses' movement scores
> would not be as good as a bigger moving horse. Their obedience scores
> might be good.
>
> >
> > Do you think any of those guys could jump a 4'0 plus jumper
> > course out of the blue and get around, let alone leave the
> > jumps up? I don't think so and I daresay neither do you.
>
> Well not on their cowhorses... ;-) On a jumper, sure.
Do they know how to walk a course? Ride the correct number
of strides between the jumps? Adjust the stride for distances
that they discovered during their course walk are set off-stride?
I'm not denying they are good riders, but this is a highly
specialized sport requiring a lot of training on the part
of the rider.
Or to turn the question back, do you think an Olympic level
rider could ride a reining horse effectively and be competitive
with those who do it as their profession?
You really have no idea of how difficult it is to ride a clean
course set by an international level course designer (and
those are the dudes who design at the AA h/j shows)
Just because the top riders and horses make it look easy,
it really is not.
>
> > So
> > what makes you think dressage is so easy that they could
> > just ride an upper level test and do so accurately and correctly?
>
> I definitely do NOT think dressage or jumping is easy, not at all. I
> do wonder about the applicability of reining training methods, at
> least in the colt starting phase, for such future work.
My experience tells me otherwise.
>
> > OK, I get that. I don't get all this nose positioning stuff; we teach
> > our horses to bend through their ribcage - the nose position has
> > zero to do with that.
>
> Here's I think a difference: when something happens very fast like
> working cows, at speed, chances are better a horse will go where he's
> supposed to go if his nose will go in that direction first. So it's
> important to have control of the nose. (Don't tell The Nose. :-)
Only The Nose gets to control the nose. LOL
> But even in the very technical jumpers courses, no horse actually has
> to do a rollback and then take a jump... It's a tight turn but it's
> not a cowhorse style rollback. Plus there is a huge emphasis on
> training the horse to watch the cow, and you flat out have to be able
> to position that nose to get that, since they watch with the fronts of
> their faces, not their ribcages...
Makes sense. Thanks.
>
> > You'll never get above level 0 doing it that way. I'd bet on
> > that. You can probably get a horse around a low level course
> > trained that way but you'll have tons of rails in combinations
> > and lines. You might be able to do a show hunter though. Try
> > that experiment first before you tackle the jumper ring.
>
> Maybe dressage but not jumping. :-)
Oh c'mon get an interested kid and try making up a hunter.
Sue Leopold
> On Jul 4, 12:06 am, svleop...@earthlink.net (Sue Leopold) wrote:
>
> > Teaching the horse to get behind the bit as cindi describes
> > most assuredly would not be useful when jumping a good-
> > sized course.
>
> I dunno... Things always break down a bit at speed, so when you have a
> horse who works to avoid bit pressure, you have more control at
> speed. With the very good riders you'll see in these upper level
Disagree on that from my experience.
> events, they are doing fine without this sort of control/response.
> But I'd love to see how it crosses over. Until you've ridden a reiner
> or a cutter and seen what all you can get done with that attitude, it
> might be hard to visualize. Course maybe it's entirely unnecessary -
> I've never ridden an upper level jumper so it might be hard for me to
> visualize. :-) But I'm curious about the crossover.
See, here's the thing that's bugging me cindi. We are talking
about two dramatically different types of horses. I'm not sure
reining type training would work on the typical type of horse
found in the jumper ring.
As I said before, there is a reason reining trainers pick
smallish, catty horses. They are suited for the work and
the training suits them.
I can't see it crossing over to a 17 plus hand jumper with
a huge stride. i just can't. The biomechanics of movement
between a stock horse and a show jumper are completely
different. The build is different - nothing is the same.
>
> > To be successful, the horse
> > must accept the hand not be floating behind it having been
> > trained to back off the bit by being pulled off it repeatedly.
>
> Stuff that happens that fast that requires rein input is best done on
> a short rein - takes too much time to take it up. Reiners train
> basically two speeds: fast and slow. They mostly make that change on
> a finished horse with upper body position only. The rate changes,
> adding strides, taking out strides, that jumpers have to do is more
> complicated. It would be very unwieldy to try to do that on a loopy
> rein.
Yes.
> However, you might be exaggerating a bit with your ideas of how a
> western horse reacts to the bit. You don't want them scared of it,
> and you don't want them sucked back in anticipation of it. You do
> just want them to go, "OK, here it comes, allow me to just position
> myself appropriately before you need to say that any, er, louder."
Okay, I can see that.
>
> > Are reining patterns set up in fixed dimensions? I'm
> > curious.
>
> No, you just use whatever arena space you have, but you do create
> points such as the center, 50 feet off the ends, etc. Here they are:
> http://www.nrha.com/patterns.asp
Thanks!
> cindi
cindi
> Huh? That horse is built decidedly uphill and has an uphill
> canter. If you can't see that he is more off his forehand than
> a stockhorse, you seriously need some help in the gait
> evaluation department.
No, he's very uphill. I just said a reining or cowhorse trainer would
find him heavy on the front hand when trying to do cowhorse stuff.
Any English trained horse will be, because of the difference in how
they respond to contact with the bit.
And just to do the tit for tat, a dressage trainer will find a reiner
to be too backed off.
>
> But don't take my word for it; that was Kevin Babington's
> evaluation of the horse. But what the hell does he know.
>
> You don't jump Level 6 heavy on the forehand. Those that
> do so are considered great ambassadors for the local
> lumberyard. :-D
Quite sure he's not heavy on the forehand for what he's doing.
> He'd also roll his eyes because he would be confused at
> what the rider is doing.
Well that would be cute.
> Do they know how to walk a course? Ride the correct number
> of strides between the jumps? Adjust the stride for distances
> that they discovered during their course walk are set off-stride?
>
> I'm not denying they are good riders, but this is a highly
> specialized sport requiring a lot of training on the part
> of the rider.
Well heck, I didn't know you meant a really hard course. I thought
you just meant some 4' jumps. :-)
>
> Or to turn the question back, do you think an Olympic level
> rider could ride a reining horse effectively and be competitive
> with those who do it as their profession?
Well we saw some Olympic dressage guy on Parelli's reiner at a demo.
The Olympic rider was not from the US and I don't remember who he
was. He got a lot of passage that he didn't think he was asking
for. ;-) The horse was clearly disturbed but the rider figured it
out pretty quick and did great.
> You really have no idea of how difficult it is to ride a clean
> course set by an international level course designer (and
> those are the dudes who design at the AA h/j shows)
>
> Just because the top riders and horses make it look easy,
> it really is not.
I thought we were talking about the staying on the horse and jumping
part only, not so much the technical aspects of a hard course and
planning and whatnot. But for what it's worth it doesn't look easy to
me.
> Oh c'mon get an interested kid and try making up a hunter.
Aren't hunters the ones who have to go around like peanut rollers but
perhaps actually flopping over a jump now and then? How about I do
jumpers with somebody instead? ;-)
cindi
Jill
>
> Not sure I said clunky, but I did say heavy on the forehand... Just
> try this, we don't need no steenkin' reining trainer for this demo:
> Get on Cruiser and pull both reins back to your, say, left hip. Let
> me know what he does. A reiner will practically flip over backwards
> to "follow the feel", "get off the contact", whatever you want to call
> it. I'm betting Cruiser will do less than practically flip over
> backwards. This can be a thought experiment if you don't want to
> really do it. ;-)
>
If you want to have some heavy handed clunk rip the bejeezus out of a 2 year
olds mouth so that she evades to the extent that she can perform a few
tricks for you to sell her, thats your ball game.
I have read enough to know that there are those who work their horses, you
know, real honest to goodness working, with real cattle, and real money, and
real land, who do not all need to do this to get great results.
But then they are also not so far up themselves as to consider that some
completely artificial futurity show is proving anything. In real life.
There are plenty more who think that, cos some so called big shots do it, it
must be the route for all, and there are also those who just are so ignorant
they know no better, and wouldn't have the subtlety or knowledge to do
anything different anyhows.
Being able to roll back to get out of having one's mouth ripped off is not
something Cruiser has had to endure, thankfully. But you show your utter
ignorance of what he does achieve to suggest that he is heavy on the
forehand, and that one trick would prove otherwise.
Cruiser has talent, Donal and Sue and Nina are developing that natural
talent, and channelling his energies to perform well.
What you have shown us with these vids shows none of this care and attention
to the animal, but abuse for a means to an end. Its obviously where your
heart lies, but doesn't make it excellent. There is no tact, no education,
no care shown.
I would LOVE to hear what Laurels working colt starters response to this man
is, I may be well off the mark but I have a suspicion it would not be
repeatable here in public.
>> MHO, the vanner (tinker horses as Donal calls 'em) is incredibly
>> unsuitable for that sort of riding. They are drafters designed
>> for pulling, not a discipline that favors catty, agile small horses.
>
> Totally agreed. I thought she showed a lot of heart. I do not think
> she'll continue to be ridden like that.
She should never have been started like that, let alone for the months she
has been.
>> I'd love to see the score sheet on those. No, hell, I'd like to
>> scribe for the judge. My goodness, even Anky van G took reining
>> lessons;
>> she didn't have the hubris to think she could just pop up one
>> day in a completely different discipline and excel.
>
> Parelli apparently has just gone off the cuff and jumped a course at
> demos and stuff.
considering what his wife did, it would be pretty astonishing if they had
not explored many of the moves she used to make, in their development of
their relationship, and their programme. Its not off the cuff. He only does
things that are well planned and practised.
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Leopold) wrote:
snip
>So what about the reins that are sold with weights sewn into
>them? Or are they like studded nosebands - used as a
>gimmick?
??
The only thing like that which I've seen has been an ornamented show
rein. Not my style and not something I've seen.
>
>> of the rein. Judging from the English reins I've handled (and are
>> hanging in my tack locker as rejects by Miss Mocha), the rolled stiff
>> rein affects the contact on a snaffle as much as a standard Western
>> split rein or romal on a curb.
>
>That's not the type of rein we use. They are light, soft and flexible.
Must have a better rein source back there, then. The only thing like
it I can find is web reins.
Then again, I have a picky horse.
>> There are cheap romals that are heavy and stiff. There are expensive
>> romals which are more pliable than web reins, and about the same
>> weight.
>
>OK, I did not know that.
You have to look at the upper end price-wise. Kangaroo leather.
>We don't use web reins btw, I find them too stiff.
Hells bells, woman, where do you get something softer? I've been
hitting everything but the high end tack shop here to find them in
longer lengths (because She Who Is Fussy Also Wants To Drag Her Nose
In A Stretch).
>>
>> >
>> >MHO, the difference to the horse between a thrown
>> >away rein in a curb and a horse in a plain snaffle with
>> >educated hands is probably nil.
>>
>> Uh-uh. As someone who rides in both sets of tack, *on the same
>> horse*, properly trained, there's a difference.
>
>I should have said in terms of comfort to the horse. I don't
>deny that the feel is different.
Even then I think there's a difference.
>> >> I don't have a problem with that. I say that all the time here. But
>> >> it's not how you can train a reiner or a cutter.
>> >
>> >Right. But that's my point - how you train a reiner and
>> >cutter would not be appropriate IME for a hunter, jumper,
>> >dressage or event horse.
>>
>> No, but some of it could very well be useful.
>
>Teaching the horse to get behind the bit as cindi describes
>most assuredly would not be useful when jumping a good-
>sized course.
I think she's describing it poorly, or it doesn't come across well. I
understand what she's saying but I've been around a Western colt
starter for some time now. The result is not necessarily behind the
bit--but that all depends upon what happens after the initial start.
>There's a lot more similarity between the way you were
>taught to start a horse and the way I was taught to start
>a horse than how cindi's trainer starts a horse. I am
>basing that on what you have written about your childhood
>mentor.
Um, I think you'd find that I would be riding more closely to Cindi's
trainer--well, okay, perhaps not to that degree. But I think you'd
find that I'd be asking for contact sooner, and expecting the horse to
have some backing off when it comes up against the bit. It's just
that I would not be overdoing it in an exhibition, nor would I be
doing it on a horse unsuitable for riding.
What is also not shown here are bitting sessions, which I'm betting
Cindi's trainer does. I know there are those who take it to an
extreme, but from what I have seen and what I have done, it's very
similar to what used to be done with young horses in bitting rigs in
the old-timey days. Only in Western, the horse is turned loose with
reins tied to the saddle, and allowed to move around at liberty (under
supervision, of course). The proper set is with the nose slightly in
front of the vertical, and the concept is that the horse has the
opportunity to experiment with moving around with the bit in a mild
contact, without the weight of a rider.
Yeah, yeah, I know. I've read enough condemnations of that particular
technique. However, the result I've seen, not just with Mocha but
with other horses, is that without the extra static of a rider, the
horse learns to relax its jaw and poll and soften up when it comes
against the bit. A five to ten minute session with Miss M when she
was becoming a butthead really made a difference--and part of it is
that the horse does not have the static of human interference (which
is why the liberty piece is so useful as opposed to lunging or round
penning when you do this). Sometimes it is good to have the horse
work it out by itself.
snip
>But that's not the point. The point is, as you move up the levels
>in the jumpers the course designers up the ante on the technical
>aspects of the course design. The horse must be able to
>adjust the length of his stride, frequently dramatically, in
>a short period of time - usually a handful of strides. The jumps
>become more and more careful. To be successful, the horse
>must accept the hand not be floating behind it having been
>trained to back off the bit by being pulled off it repeatedly.
>
>Not saying you train like this, heck I'm pretty sure you do not.
Well no, but the horse in other disciplines does have to make
comparable adjustments. I'm following a blog written by a barrel
rider--lower level rodeo rider but at the level where she can earn
some money and place well, and the esoterics of that type of training
can approach jumpers, from the arguments I've read.
That said, I've had some exposure to high level jumpers at least
locally (one barn I was at where I had the horrible hunt seat
instructor also had much better higher level training). From what
I've seen, I'm afraid Donal's more the exception, not the rule (and
these are people who were hitting the Indio circuit. That said, it
was also ten years ago, so training has probably changed).
That I'm not sure about. I think it depends on the arena it's put in.
jrw
Sue Leopold
> On Jul 4, 12:30 am, svleop...@earthlink.net (Sue Leopold) wrote:
>
> > Huh? That horse is built decidedly uphill and has an uphill
> > canter. If you can't see that he is more off his forehand than
> > a stockhorse, you seriously need some help in the gait
> > evaluation department.
>
> No, he's very uphill. I just said a reining or cowhorse trainer would
> find him heavy on the front hand when trying to do cowhorse stuff.
> Any English trained horse will be, because of the difference in how
> they respond to contact with the bit.
OK.
>
> And just to do the tit for tat, a dressage trainer will find a reiner
> to be too backed off.
Yes.
> Quite sure he's not heavy on the forehand for what he's doing.
He couldn't do what he does if he was heavy on the forehand.
>
> > He'd also roll his eyes because he would be confused at
> > what the rider is doing.
>
> Well that would be cute.
He does that whenever he is confused. You can practically
see the wheels turning in his head.
>
> > Do they know how to walk a course? Ride the correct number
> > of strides between the jumps? Adjust the stride for distances
> > that they discovered during their course walk are set off-stride?
> >
> > I'm not denying they are good riders, but this is a highly
> > specialized sport requiring a lot of training on the part
> > of the rider.
>
> Well heck, I didn't know you meant a really hard course. I thought
> you just meant some 4' jumps. :-)
Oh that they could definitely do. The jumping is the easy part;
it's the other crap that is the hard part.
>
> >
> > Or to turn the question back, do you think an Olympic level
> > rider could ride a reining horse effectively and be competitive
> > with those who do it as their profession?
>
> Well we saw some Olympic dressage guy on Parelli's reiner at a demo.
> The Olympic rider was not from the US and I don't remember who he
> was. He got a lot of passage that he didn't think he was asking
> for. ;-) The horse was clearly disturbed but the rider figured it
> out pretty quick and did great.
I think they did this at the World Cup - the jumper riders
rode some reiners. They had fun from all accounts but I
doubt they were actually good.
> I thought we were talking about the staying on the horse and jumping
> part only, not so much the technical aspects of a hard course and
> planning and whatnot. But for what it's worth it doesn't look easy to
> me.
>
> > Oh c'mon get an interested kid and try making up a hunter.
>
> Aren't hunters the ones who have to go around like peanut rollers but
> perhaps actually flopping over a jump now and then? How about I do
> jumpers with somebody instead? ;-)
Not the good ones; they don't flop.
Go for the jumpers; it will be fun.
Sue Leopold
> >We don't use web reins btw, I find them too stiff.
>
> Hells bells, woman, where do you get something softer? I've been
> hitting everything but the high end tack shop here to find them in
> longer lengths (because She Who Is Fussy Also Wants To Drag Her Nose
> In A Stretch).
Now that depends on the web rein of course. i don't like the
nylon ones.
Pessoa rubber reins with a nylon core. Light. Flexible. Soft.
Wonderful things. Not terribly expensive. i have heard good
things about Nunn Finer as well.
(Donal is picky about reins. He and Mocha could fuss
about them together. LOL)
> >I should have said in terms of comfort to the horse. I don't
> >deny that the feel is different.
>
> Even then I think there's a difference.
Dunno. Some horses seem to find security with an elastic
contact.
> >Teaching the horse to get behind the bit as cindi describes
> >most assuredly would not be useful when jumping a good-
> >sized course.
>
> I think she's describing it poorly, or it doesn't come across well. I
> understand what she's saying but I've been around a Western colt
> starter for some time now. The result is not necessarily behind the
> bit--but that all depends upon what happens after the initial start.
Yeah, but could you get a horse trained thusly to jump into
your hand?
> Um, I think you'd find that I would be riding more closely to Cindi's
> trainer--well, okay, perhaps not to that degree. But I think you'd
> find that I'd be asking for contact sooner, and expecting the horse to
> have some backing off when it comes up against the bit. It's just
> that I would not be overdoing it in an exhibition, nor would I be
> doing it on a horse unsuitable for riding.
I was speaking more of the driving education she believed in,
which is very similar to what I was taught re ground driving
and lunging prior to riding. But maybe my memory is faulty.
> Yeah, yeah, I know. I've read enough condemnations of that particular
> technique. However, the result I've seen, not just with Mocha but
> with other horses, is that without the extra static of a rider, the
> horse learns to relax its jaw and poll and soften up when it comes
> against the bit. A five to ten minute session with Miss M when she
> was becoming a butthead really made a difference--and part of it is
> that the horse does not have the static of human interference (which
> is why the liberty piece is so useful as opposed to lunging or round
> penning when you do this). Sometimes it is good to have the horse
> work it out by itself.
I don't have any problem with that practice as long as it is
not taken to abusive extremes in terms of time spent by
the horse.
> Well no, but the horse in other disciplines does have to make
> comparable adjustments. I'm following a blog written by a barrel
> rider--lower level rodeo rider but at the level where she can earn
> some money and place well, and the esoterics of that type of training
> can approach jumpers, from the arguments I've read.
I can believe that.
>
> That said, I've had some exposure to high level jumpers at least
> locally (one barn I was at where I had the horrible hunt seat
> instructor also had much better higher level training). From what
> I've seen, I'm afraid Donal's more the exception, not the rule (and
Why do you think we stay with him despite his horrible
organizational skills, abysmal time management and chronic
tardiness? LOL
> these are people who were hitting the Indio circuit. That said, it
> was also ten years ago, so training has probably changed).
Oh we have our share of hideous jumper riders here in the
east. But we have some damned fine ones too.
Jill
>>> of the rein. Judging from the English reins I've handled (and are
>>> hanging in my tack locker as rejects by Miss Mocha), the rolled
>>> stiff rein affects the contact on a snaffle as much as a standard
>>> Western split rein or romal on a curb.
>>
>> That's not the type of rein we use. They are light, soft and
>> flexible.
>
> Must have a better rein source back there, then. The only thing like
> it I can find is web reins.
They used to be called German Reins here, many moons ago.
English Reins are more like this :
http://www.eurosaddlery.com/prodimages/586-DEFAULT-m.jpg
http://www.okcorral.co.nz/images/bridles/flatcavesson.jpg
very light,
>>
>> OK, I did not know that.
>
> You have to look at the upper end price-wise. Kangaroo leather.
>
>> We don't use web reins btw, I find them too stiff.
>
> Hells bells, woman, where do you get something softer? I've been
> hitting everything but the high end tack shop here to find them in
> longer lengths (because She Who Is Fussy Also Wants To Drag Her Nose
> In A Stretch).
>
The web ones I used to have were very soft and incredibly flexible.
You could roll them up into a smaller ball than even the softest leather
ones.
Clearly describing different materials.
interesting
cindi
> What is also not shown here are bitting sessions, which I'm betting
> Cindi's trainer does. I know there are those who take it to an
> extreme, but from what I have seen and what I have done, it's very
> similar to what used to be done with young horses in bitting rigs in
> the old-timey days. Only in Western, the horse is turned loose with
> reins tied to the saddle, and allowed to move around at liberty (under
> supervision, of course). The proper set is with the nose slightly in
> front of the vertical, and the concept is that the horse has the
> opportunity to experiment with moving around with the bit in a mild
> contact, without the weight of a rider.
Here's some:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a2cdods3qs
This is with one side working at a time. I don't like seeing them
checked up vertically but it can help in some cases, especially like
you say: to teach them something without also having them deal with
the weight of a rider and all the other issues that causes.
I have done this; I mostly now work them closely in hand to accomplish
the same thing. The worst was when I first saw it done to one of my
horses in around 2001; she was tied with her head around so it could
touch her fender, and the trainer went inside and had dinner. When
she came back out, my horse was braced and leaning and sweating and
upset, and I definitely did not see the point. But the way Dylan is
doing it here, he uses the stirrup on the inside to approximate an
inside leg cue, and the nose to the side to approximate a leading
rein, and asks for movement, and then most importantly, doesn't let
her brace and lock up and just stand there, and is ready to take it
all down soon, when she's doing well.
cindi
> jrw- Hide quoted text -
cindi
discussions here. However, I couldn’t find any big name trainers
doing colt starting on Youtube. This stuff is way farther along, or
it’s remedial work on a trained horse. I did find yahoos doing colt
starting but I didn’t spend any time looking for what I’d consider
good ones. I put all of my trainer’s stuff into a play list on
youtube so it’s easier to find. It’s called “my trainer.” There are
two new ones from today: Casper is getting a tune up and Allison has a
lesson.
http://www.youtube.com/allisonacres
So here are the big time dudes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJdWAVQjG3Q
Bob Avila on a farther along horse, showing lots of pulling, but the
horse is already very well trained on how to respond to such pulling
so you don’t see much resistance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iqXKzXTdgY
Bob Avila, just jogging around but showing that pulling straight up of
the bridle reins to “bump” the horse down. Like the stuff Eileen was
talking about but perhaps not as coarse…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0jWXMcfPLo
Les Vogt on starting young two year olds, pulling, kicking, and
staying in the round pen in small circles for 60 to 90 days, putting
flex on them before heading into a bigger area.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-ld1v4JpvE
Al Dunning, pulling, flopping around a bit on a two year old and a
four year old “ready to show”, on the mechanical cow ;-) A lot of
sales pitch for the mechanical cow but the riding is what I’m looking
at – “get the horse in the right form”, and then draw him back.
Position, then send, which is what I’ve been mentioning in the other
posts. Al is freakin' awesome. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od8lj_FOkh8
Shawn Flarida’s winning NRHA 2007 futurity championship ride, just to
watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xkVKnbhrz8
Bob Avila, riding two handed, talking about “softening the face” – not
a super green colt so not too abrupt or harsh looking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXqrWhW9BJI
Andrea Fappani on a broke horse, one handed, talking about pulling,
pick up, hold, bump, and do it when the judge can’t see you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-kop90Wrg8
Stacy says do her cloverleaf pattern (involving turns all in one
direction) for 10 to 15 minutes on a young horse without needing a
vet’s ok for that – way more than the circles Dylan did on Scarlett in
the vid I posted a few weeks ago that everybody said was too many
circles. Also talking about pulling on reins. Also talking about
counter canter for body control.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu5Jjo8hNGQ
Buck Brannaman, a bridle horse though… showing backing circles/arcs
and preparing a position, this is a very finished look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik0evB1OHVU
Buck again, same stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aCagVRL5W8
Richard Winters, teaching horse to give to bit pressure, says he’s not
pulling but he most definitely does at 1.13, 1:33, 1:59, etc. Again
at 2:53… His last one is pretty much not pulling, just fixing his
hand. But this is part of my point: we say one thing but do another.
Like Parelli says he doesn’t punish… He does, no matter what he wants
to call it. But he definitely pulls and then releases when
appropriate. The horse gets way better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6AxaDVdzoA
Richard again, pressure, release – I was there. :-) I prefer this,
full range of motion before you try to bridle up a horse, which means
asking for that placement and positioning of the nose/poll/neck/
shoulders. Guess folks are afraid to set up a bad habit of going
around inverted or star gazing or on the forehand if they let them
move out without first gaining some control of the parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkpYL10ad5M
Richard again with a bracey horse, shoulda been started right. ;-)
Coupla things: the clinicians who cater to people who are about to
ruin what used to be perfectly good horses are a lot more obvious in
their releases, so that the folks they are training can SEE it, and
COPY it, and at least get it halfway right. But Dylan releases just
as well, if not as obviously - he is used to training folks who are
ready to show in cutting, a bit of a different group who don't always
need things so concrete and obvious. Parelli and Anderson and even
Richard Winters do a complete "hot potato" release - they throw the
reins forward when the horse gives. This is overkill and not
necessary with a rider who has more feel and experience. So I think
that comes into play when we try to watch Dylan especially in
unprofessional low resolution teeny videos. We can't necessarily all
that's going on.
take care all
cindi
cindi
Can you give me a name of somebody, a western trainer, who you think
is a good colt starter? Hopefully one who's doing cowhorse stuff or
even just regular ol' ranch horses. Point me to a video or website?
Or book?
thanks
cindi
betsey
wrote:
> Sue Leopold wrote:
> > cindi <allisonac...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> (snip)
>
> > Besides, a Western horse does not have to leave a course
> > w/o contact. Kevin Babington finally told Donal at Garden
> > State that he had to get Cruiser to "jump into his hand"
> > and then the horse would leave the jumps up. He was
> > right, but what the hell does he know, he only rode
> > successfully in the Olympics. And was asked to keep
> > Liscalgot under tack and jumping when Dermot Lennon
> > was laid up.
>
> Wow I like that "jump into the hand." Sounds like something you could
> really work with. ;)
>
>
> >> I think that's a main difference. Finished western horses don't go
> >> around on contact. When they feel contact, they are supposed to
> >> respond in a manner to make it go away or at least to minimize it as
> >> much as possible.
>
> How do you ever get them off their forehand?
>
>
> topline. How is that done when they are taught to minimize contact?
>
>
> >> If an English horse was ridden like that with the goal of trying to
> >> get them collected, yes, front to back. But what the western guys are
> >> doing is not trying to collect them. They are trying to ensure that
> >> all their body parts are infinitely positionable, loose and free and
> >> available.
>
> > Betsey avers that western horses *are* ridden in collection.
>
>
> > And you act like that is exclusive to western riding, which is
> > bs in my opinion. No jumper would ever succeed were he/she
> > not infinitely positionable, loose, free and available. The good
> > ones make it look EASY. Find a copy of the tape from the
> > 1984 Olympics and look at the rides of the US riders. *That*
> > is the classic American Jumping Style for which the team
> > was reknowned in the 70s and 80s.
>
> Yeah I think that is probably more important in jumpers than dressage
> relazation are in the pyramid for sure, near the bottom as they are
> foundational.
>
> > of-the-line, well-schooled show hunter let alone ridden one.
> > They are amazing to ride, you think what you want and then
> > they do it. They are ridden with totally invisible aids; if you
> > show the ride at the big shows you aren't going to get a call.
>
> And the conformation hunters and also very dreamy. :)
>
> >> roll back or spin, and if he's asked to do those things he'll be
> >> considered heavy in the front. I could be wrong. :-) And it doesn't
> >> matter for your purposes since he's not supposed to do those things.
>
> > He's a huge horse not a pony or hony of 15 hands or less.
> > I boarded with pretty competitive reiners and there is a
> > darned good reason they do not want big horses. They thought
> > the big h/j horses were appallingly huge, but they understood
> > why we choose the horses we do. And I fully understand
> > why smaller horses are preferable for cutting and reining.
>
> training. Anyone who has gone from doing easy quarter turns in canter
> (square) just using your lower stomach on a smaller, less trained horse
> to "suddenly" not being able to get more than one step over at a time on
> a more highly trained, larger horse with the identical lower stomach
> muscles will agree. ;)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> But my point is, we all sit around and bitch about certain things, but
> >> those certain things are done for a reason, and we are not out winning
> >> cuttings and reinings, so maybe we should just stop bitching and try
> >> to learn. (Not you in the specific sense, just you know, people in
> >> general.) And it's not just other people - I'm including myself in
> >> that.
>
> > IIRC I did not "ding" your trainer, I simply meant in my post
> > that what is correct colt-starting for your discipline probably
> > won't work for mine.
>
> > to read some Littauer, then follow it up with some Gordon
> > Wright, Harry Chamberlain, Bill Steinkraus. Once you have
> > mastered that, try tackling Seuning and d'Endrody. Then
> > speak to me of jumpers. (I have read them all btw.)
>
> I just bought two Wanless books based on ideas of hers I got through
> others that has really mattered in my riding. Like a missing puzzle
> piece. Great books.
>
>
>
>
>
> >> with the reins? It is not as obvious with English riding because the
> >> reins are shorter overall. But things are still happening. It also
> >> isn't as obvious because the horse is not expected to put 4 inches of
> >> slack into the reins when asked for something - he's expected to do
> >> anything from not bull thru it to meet his rider's tension to position
> >> himself so that there is only a bit of tension in the reins, depending
>
> > There are three types of hands:
>
> > The pulling hand - I think we all agree that this is always
> > incorrect. :-)
>
> > from your posts. That's a fine hand for general pleasure,
> > recreational riding and you will never hurt a horse with it, but
> > you will not educate a horse with it either.
>
>
> > with an educated hand does use the bit as a means of
> > communication and to contain the energy sent forward from
> > the rear engine.
>
>
> >http://lizditz.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/georgemorrisjumping.jpg
>
> > which is the way jumping should look.
>
> The hand as part of the rein and recycle and "armless" riding is not a
> beginner thing. Wet saddle blankets.
>
>
> >> I don't know... I'm starting to have some ideas about that, when
> >> comparing Allison on Q to S. on her old dressage horse, among other
> >> comparisons. I watch dressage schooling shows and I see riders trying
> >> to use reins and I see horses who don't care that there is tension in
>
> > You are talking about local-level, poor riding push and pull
> > "dressage riders" whose total thing is getting a headset. You
> > can no more compare that to advanced jumper/dressage/
> > eventing riders than Eileen could have compared the riders
> > at her local show to national level reining and cutting trainers.
>
>
> W.R.T dressage, you don't see consistent correct riding until the upper
> levels and some even say FEI. If she hasn't seen that and had the
> chance to audit many, many hours and ask questions then she won't know.
>
> >> quo. So when the riders try to do something, the horse can just
> >> stiffen and ignore and then the rider has to use a lot of muscle to
> >> get the movement done. That is a horse who's been taught to ignore
> >> tension in the reins. And that to me is the definition of front to
> >> back riding. It is not the same thing as being asked for a position
> >> and then being given a release.
>
> > Oh. My. God.
>
>
> >> I have a hard time watching any riding that doesn't result in
> >> ultimately having slack in the reins and thinking of it as proper back
> >> to front riding. Because if you can't let go of the front end and
> >> expect the horse to continue doing whatever it's supposed to be doing,
>
> > to a supporting hand. Pulling does not enter into the equation.
>
> completely foreign to those not trying to obtain it. There is no
> backward (as opposed to following) aspect to elastic contact. By
> definition.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
sharon-
just a quicky point...
in GOOD western riding...the slowness of gaits does come from self
carriage and collection. I will grant you this, it is NOT the same
degree of collection as you on Pete...because we don't have that
direct line from bit to hand, we aren't asking for that level of rein
contact. but to ride a slow jog or a slow lope (and note I said jog
and lope...not wog and trope!!), you need to ride it with a very
strong sense of core. to get it from Macho, it HAS to come from the
seat, not from the hand.
betsey
> Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote:
>
> - S
how quoted text -
hi sue--
weighted reins are a gimmick <g>...no doubt about it! i've even seen
some with fishing weights in them (acch!). and romals can come in
different weights--i believe that some breed associations have had to
state how MUCH they can weight....i don't think PHBA has specified
that...before I ordered mine from Steve, I called and asked that
question. mine are not weighted, but because they are braided, there
is a certain drape to them. the next time you are at NJ Horse park
(are you going to woodedge??) I can drive up to visit and bring the
"california set up" (what Romals are often called). Maybe we can put
them on the boy!!!
Reining patterns do have fixed dimensions. no, i don'tknow them off
the top of my head <g>. I'm still learning. but in a reining
pattern, cones are set out to provide the rider with visual markers
for placement of the pattern. www.nrha.com is a neat place to
visit.
and because i typically stay dump to things....can you shoot me an
email about what is going on with Ms Westfall??
betsey
> On Jul 3, 7:57 pm, Eileen Morgan <eg...@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> > Normally, if I have a horse get heavy up front, I do some degree of
> > transition--a half halt, a change of gait in a green horse, possibly a
> > schooling figure like a circle to help them balance back again. I don't
> > use hand for this past being sure I am steady and asking them to step
> > under to me.
>
> > But hey, what do I know. :-)
>
> A lot, for how you ride. :-)
>
> > The riders I saw at the last two Western shows I went to--Penn Jersey
> > that I posted about and then another one last weekend--the riders seemed
> > to go behind the judge and then yank their horses up and forward with
> > the hands. Yuck. This is not how educated people of any ilk ride, of
> > course, but wannabees.
>
> Well you might have an argument with some world class riders. Here's
> Andrea Fappani on fixing things without the judge seeing you. I mean,
> doesn't pretty much everybody do things like that? Just like trying
>
> Personally I get so happy when I see a rider take the time to work,
> tactfully, on whatever issue came up while showing, and forfeit a good
> score. But it doesn't happen often when big money is involved. You
> are there to win, and you want the judge to see the good stuff and not
> see the bad stuff.
>
> > Well, that happens if the rider is crap. Just like the crap backyard
> > yahoo Western folks who populate the parks on weekends around here. If I
> > judged Western riding by 90% of the locals, I'd say it was for nimwits
> > who want a horn to hang onto and a big honkin' curb to stop.
>
> For the record: most riding sucks, western and English. IMO. ;-)
> And of course everybody has room for improvement.
>
> > I don't use a lot of muscle when riding, at least not in my arms and
> > shoulders!
>
> Awesome.
>
> > Well, if you've seen it done right and still have an issue, you don't
> > know what you are looking at. No one can ride XC on a loose rein with a
> > big loop. Long with a fluid contact when the terrain requires it, yes.
>
> Fluid contact is great.
>
> cindi
cindi-
thank you for the andrea you tubes...having way too much fun watching
them!
Eileen Morgan
> But can you
> do a rollback on a cow like that? Can you do a spin? I'm definitely
> not saying "no other horses can ever be ridden on loose reins."
The cow provides the balance backwards--like a jump does. When I did
some herding work, I didn't need to balance back at all because the
stimulus to do so came from the animal. A good jumper you just sit up
and push because when they lock onto the jump, IT provides the balancing
back to pat off the ground, and your hands should just be floating
support without dropping the horse.
>> MHO, the vanner (tinker horses as Donal calls 'em) is incredibly
>> unsuitable for that sort of riding. They are drafters designed
>> for pulling, not a discipline that favors catty, agile small horses.
> Totally agreed. I thought she showed a lot of heart. I do not think
> she'll continue to be ridden like that.
I would hope not.
Eileen Morgan
The Mare's Nest (PA)
http://www.themaresnest.com
Eileen Morgan
> On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 03:06:32 -0400, svle...@earthlink.net (Sue
> Leopold) wrote:
>> We don't use web reins btw, I find them too stiff.
>
> Hells bells, woman, where do you get something softer? I've been
> hitting everything but the high end tack shop here to find them in
> longer lengths (because She Who Is Fussy Also Wants To Drag Her Nose
> In A Stretch).
All my reins are old and soft. I hate riding with new English reins--I
only do it in schooling until they break in well. With good leather and
frequent cleanings it does not take too long, but at first they always
suck. Use them to walk a small dog and clean them often if you can't
ride in them right away. ;-)
Eileen Morgan
> On Jul 3, 7:57 pm, Eileen Morgan <eg...@ptd.net> wrote:
>> The riders I saw at the last two Western shows I went to--Penn Jersey
>> that I posted about and then another one last weekend--the riders seemed
>> to go behind the judge and then yank their horses up and forward with
>> the hands. Yuck. This is not how educated people of any ilk ride, of
>> course, but wannabees.
> Well you might have an argument with some world class riders. Here's
> Andrea Fappani on fixing things without the judge seeing you. I mean,
> doesn't pretty much everybody do things like that? Just like trying
> not to do bad things in front of the cop when you're driving.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXqrWhW9BJI
OK, there is correcting as you go along to achieve the best test
possible, and there is doing a big yank on the horse's face behind the
judge. It is not ok to EVER yank the face like that, in front of the
judge or behind. I expect most people do ride as well as they can and
try to adjust the horse subtly while doing a competition--but if they
are doing it badly or aggressively, then I have an issue.
And do you actually think that horse in the video is going nicely? And
they guy is riding well? Really?
Ocean of Nuance
(snip)
> Sharon:
>> How do you ever get them off their forehand?
>
> Amusing thing: I had a XC lesson with Belles, our second of the season.
> As always, when Belles is not doing something regularly, she gets very
> conservative, plus she is not terribly fit, so I had to really support
> her. In our first warm up fences, she was very nice but a bit inclined
> to barrel along. We were jumping a log, then galloping uphill all the
> way to and over and on up the hill for the second fence, both small but
> she was pumped about being out XC. She was being such a nit wit, wanting
> to run off and being excited about jumping, and she went plowing down
> into my hand and onto her forehand. As we are thundering up the hill, me
> sitting as tall as I can, I exclaimed "BELLES! How on earth are you
> getting on your forehand UPHILL like this!?" and my coach screamed "KICK
> KICK KICK, and GOOD QUESTION!" I certainly was not using reins to get
> her off her nose.
>
> Normally, if I have a horse get heavy up front, I do some degree of
> transition--a half halt, a change of gait in a green horse, possibly a
> schooling figure like a circle to help them balance back again. I don't
> use hand for this past being sure I am steady and asking them to step
> under to me.
>
> But hey, what do I know. :-)
I hope you realize I wasn't implying that the hand alone is used to get
a horse off the forehand. Hand is required as the receptacle in the HH
and regulates the length of stride (push the hand forward, the stride
should get bigger, not faster). And a horse can continue schlepping on
the forehand in school figures until the cows come home, yes?
As far as I know, you get a horse shifting their weight back through
continued use of perfectly timed and effective HHs, most of which
require a cycle that connects the back legs to the rider's hand.
I was asking how a person riding on a looped rein teaches a horse to
shift the weight back (without ever having the horse learn how to
recycle energy with contact).
> Sharon:
>> How do you get them to avoid BTV when they are "minimizing" the contact?
>
> The riders I saw at the last two Western shows I went to--Penn Jersey
> that I posted about and then another one last weekend--the riders seemed
> to go behind the judge and then yank their horses up and forward with
> the hands. Yuck. This is not how educated people of any ilk ride, of
> course, but wannabees.
It just sounds like these folks are so focused on the horse's reaction
to minimize the contact that they don't necessarily care how the horse
does it.
(snip)
> Sue
>>> But it is. Back to front simply means sending the horse forward
>>> to a supporting hand. Pulling does not enter into the equation.
>
> Yes. As I said to someone in the clinic today, "no one can ever, ever
> PULL a horse straight. You have to let go and kick him straight."
Backward hand is always incorrect as far as I know. And counterproductive.
Control the shoulders and the haunches and you have the key to the
straightness kingdom. This is seat and leg. Nothing to do with head
and hand as far as I know.
sharon
JC Dill
> On Jul 3, 7:00 am, Tamara in TN <CDHOW...@HIGHLAND.NET> wrote:
>
>> ummm no...it's not...it's just not...his legs are not even in the
>> right place
>> as his stirrups are about 6 inches too short....
>
> We go 'round and 'round with him about his stirrups. The person he
> did his apprenticeship with is NCHA and PCCHA hall of famer David
> McGregor. He taught him to have his stirrups like that so his leg is
> available to the horse at all times. He is very tall and there is no
> other way but to have short stirrups to have your leg available at all
> times. You can argue all you want, like I do with him, about it, but
> the fact remains neither you nor I are NCHA or PCCHA hall of
> famers. ;-)
I'm with Cindi on this. No one ever complains that the riders stirrups
are too short when the rider is starting a TB in an exercise saddle.
I'd much rather see shorter stirrups used, especially with a long legged
rider, than stirrups that put the leg below the horse's belly and then
the rider uses spurs instead of the leg. There's nothing wrong with
using spurs if you have an educated leg and are working with a trained
horse, but using spurs *because* you can't use your leg, *because* your
stirrups are too long, on a BABY, is, IMHO, inappropriate.
I bet he lowers his stirrups as the horse comes along and he doesn't
need as much leg cue. If so, this is much better than the person who
always keeps their stirrups at one length, no matter the horse's barrel
size or stage of training.
jc
JC Dill
> cindi <alliso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I really think more people should watch colt starting - Parelli even,
>> and Clinton Anderson, and Dennis Reis, Craig Cameron, Richard Winters,
>> Al Dunning, even John Lyons, etc. All those western started colts are
>> ridden like that, and over time it's refined so that it's not as
>> obvious to onlookers. You can see the same thing in the videos I
>> posted of him riding any of my horses, especially the young ones. I
>> don't know a single western trainer who does not train like that, and
>> most English riders I know, even those who have very nice winning
>> warmbloods and Andalusians, use guys just like these to start their
>> colts.
>
> Honestly, this method of starting a young horse is most emphatically
> not suitable for bringing a horse along who you want to show in
> jumpers, dressage or combined training.
I have a very limited dataset of 1, but this worked beautifully for
Breeze, who was started by Richard Winters and went on to successfully
Event at Prelim and then became a field hunter.
I felt that having him started NH style was the very best thing I could
ever do for him. Breeze was very difficult (similar to the difficulties
Eileen has with Rain in many ways) in his "teenage" (ages 1-5) years as
an unbroke colt. Richard brought has an ability to find and cultivate
the "wanna" and maintain the "forward" while teaching him the virtues of
"yield". These are basic building blocks in all forward riding
disciplines (e.g. reining, dressage, jumpers, eventing, but not WP).
Before I sent Breeze to Richard for his first few rides I had started
all my foals myself, without difficulties and with very good results.
The results I had from Richard's time with Breeze were exceptional. He
was far further along in balance, forward, yielding, and wanna at 30
days than any other horse I had started myself.
jc
Jane Saranac
"Eileen Morgan" <eg...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:4a4f52bb$0$27614$ce5e7886@news-> All my reins are old and soft. I hate
> only do it in schooling until they break in well. With good leather and
> frequent cleanings it does not take too long, but at first they always
> suck. Use them to walk a small dog and clean them often if you can't ride
> in them right away. ;-)
Someone (it may have been here but I don't remember, it was long ago) taught
me about soaking the reins in olive oil that's been heated. I did that with
a new cheap leather pair that was stiff... it really worked... let it sit
overnight. Once I got out the excess oil I had great, soft leather. It
will darken the color though.