Any Van Norman mill info?
Zhorkon
the Chinese mill-drills. Oh yeah, I'm also partial to offbeat machines that
work wonderfully and cost next to nothing.
I'm seeing a bunch of supposedly working Van Norman mills for sale at
near-scrap prices, at both ends of the country - but nobody wants them,
apparently. They look useful... good sized table and movements, able to
swivel their heads into either vertical or horizontal positions... massive
enough to do the job it would seem, but not heavier than a 'real' modern
mill.
So the question is: what's wrong with them? Aside from their lack of a
desirable R-8 taper? Anybody out there have an informed opinion? Own one?
What are its faults? What does it do well?
TIA! --Jim
Staltus
is at time a pain. But it works well, it can move metal in a big way at
least to my mind. Much better than the 3-n-1 I had. adjusting it can be
cumbersome at times. Would I trade mine off, No. having horzonatl is
nice at times. Cutting a long keyway can go very quickly in horizontal.
Steve
Steve Smith
-no quill feed
-funny collet shape
-max collet size is 5/8" (if you're lucky-new from Hardinge they only come up
to 9/16")
Like you said, they do an excellent job of hogging out metal, vert or horiz. I
really like mine (VN#12).
Steve Smith
Kent Frazier
I looked at a Van Norman mill last year. The asking price was reason enough
to take a look.
I was amazed at the size of the machine as I had only heard of B'port sized
Van Normans. This machine, the only Van Norman I have ever looked at, was
prolly the biggest of the Van Norman line.
It had a 50 taper spindle and a really big 3 phase motor, I don't remember
the hp but I remember thinking my rotary phase converter couldn't handle it.
The man selling it said it could swing a 8" face mill in steel with no
problem. A really massive machine! The fact that it was a
vertical/horizontal mill intrigues, I still think about it, if I could find
work for it I would buy it.
Faults of this one, big foot print, 50 taper tooling is expensive, work for
a machine is scarce especially for an rcmer.
What does it do well, remove material.
Kent
Gunner ©
wrote:
I found a nice Cincinnati 2M in Santa Ana California, with a vertical
head, you can probably get for a couple hundred dollars. Bit rusty but
was alleged to be working when it was taken out of service.
Gunner
Taxation is the art of plucking the goose so as to obtain the largest
amount of feathers with the smallest amount of hissing.
-- Jean-Baptiste Colbert
Orrin Iseminger
faults: Limited room between the spindle and table; but, so far the
machine has done everything I've asked of it.
The V-N doesn't have a quill, so for small holes I got a sensitive
drill attachment. It allows drilling without having to crank the knee
up and down.
The #6 is not a huge machine. It fits nicely into a home machine
shop.
I got lucky. A complete set of collets came with the machine and I
got another complete set--including a 5/8"--from someone who had no
use for them. Collets do show up on eBay, but IIRC one complete set
sold for something like $400, once-upon-a-time.
Orrin
On Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:06:35 GMT, "Zhorkon" <zho...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>OK, I need a mill, I can't afford a J-Head, and I can't really warm up to
Zhorkon
completely different mill, I'll widen my question a bit:
What good alternatives are there to the Van Norman "Universal" mill that are
also very low priced? What do people here think about horiz mills fitted
with vert heads? How rigid and "metal munching" are they? Do auxillary
heads have quills? Do they use common, cheap tooling? Maybe most telling in
comparison to a Van Norman's main virtue, do vert heads go on and come off
their basic horiz mills easy enough to make switching back and forth
practical?
In general I'm looking at mills in the general home shop size range, which
to me is roughly 2000-2500 lbs. and 6' H x 4' W x 4' D... but with the
limitation of keeping under $1000. (Far under being, of course, much
better! I will also have to spend a fortune getting *whatever* I buy back
home to SW Idaho!)
From what I've read here so far, the Van Norman seems like a great tool and
a good compromise design. I could live with the tool-to-table restrictions,
the scarce collets and even - though this is the worst shortcoming to me -
the lack of a quill for vertical tool feeding. The versatility of the Van
Norman's horiz/vert changeover makes up for a lot and I can kluge around
most of the problems.
As always, you're all a great resource, with unmatcheable combined
knowledge! Thanks for the info! --Jim, aka 'Zhorkon'
Actuary81
>From: "Zhorkon" zho...@earthlink.net
>Date: 6/26/01 1:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <vi3_6.906$vu4.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Somewhat smaller than the Van Norman......more like a Clausing vertical
sizewise is the Linley mill/jig borer.... especially the latest model #1A which
has a VERY wide bed under the X-Y table. This is an excellent machine for
light milling as well as precision drilling. Within these boundaries, the only
drawback is difficulty in getting the special collets (which are different for
the model #1A than the earelier models which used the LB collets). Hardinge
makes them as a special, but for an obscene price. Barry
Steve Smith
sizes.
Are you going to (sooner or later) let the rest of us VN owners in on your
sources of machines?
Steve Smith
John & Beth Kasunich
wrote:
>I'm seeing a bunch of supposedly working Van Norman mills for sale at
>near-scrap prices, at both ends of the country - but nobody wants them,
>apparently. They look useful... good sized table and movements, able to
>swivel their heads into either vertical or horizontal positions... massive
>enough to do the job it would seem, but not heavier than a 'real' modern
>mill.
>
>So the question is: what's wrong with them? Aside from their lack of a
>desirable R-8 taper? Anybody out there have an informed opinion? Own one?
>What are its faults? What does it do well?
>
I paid $500 for my Van Norman #12, and wouldn't trade it for five
times the price. I looked at a lot of machines before I bought it,
and the only Bridgeports I saw for less than $2,500 needed LOTS of
work (like missing leadscrews, obvious damage from falling over,
missing heads, etc.
Faults:
No quill, which is inconvenient if you want to use it as an
accurate drill press. I still have my Shoptask, as well as a
nice Clausing 15" drill press, so that's not much of a factor
for me. If you want to do precision boring, the lack of a quill
would be somewhere between a major pain and a total
showstopper. You can bore with the head vertical by using
the knee, or with the head horizontal using the saddle.
Unfortunately neither knee nor saddle has power feed on
a #12. The table axis does have power feed, and some
larger Van Normans have power feed on all three axis.
Spindle taper is 5V, which means tooling is limited and
expensive. I have one collet (3/8") and a 1" horizontal arbor.
A local used tool dealer has a limited selection of collets at
$15 each, but I haven't spend the money yet. I have a plan ;-)
The spindle is simple (no splines, only 12" overall length),
and I plan to make a new one with an R8 taper. There is
certainly enough beef in the spindle to handle the slightly larger
R8. The Van Norman spindle nose is 2-1/8" in diameter. That's
bigger than a Bridgeport spindle. I figure $50 for a chunk of 4140
or other good steel, some hours of my time to machine it, and
$50-100 each for heat treat and finish grinding. Total $150-250,
I'll recover part of that selling my 5V arbor (I've seen them fetch
almost $100 on eBay), and I'll easily recover the rest in tooling
costs over time.
Limited top speed - 1400 RPM IIRC. Not the best machine for
a 1/8" carbide end mill. On the other hand, the low end goes
down to 70 RPM. When possible I do slot work with horizontal
cutters. I've picked up about 50 cutters from the local surplus
dealers, most for $2-$4 a pound. On Sunday I milled two 3/8"
wide x 3/16" deep by 3" long keyways in each of three 1-1/2"
303SS shafts for my neighbor. One pass to hog it out, then drop
down 0.004 and climb mill back to the beginning to clean up the
finish. Done!
Now the advantages:
Horizontal and vertical modes. If all you've ever used is a
vertical, this is a real awakening. It's amazing the number of
jobs that are easier in horizontal mode. I wouldn't want to be
stuck with _only_ a horizontal, but for many jobs it's the way to
go.
Rigidity. DId I mention rigidity? Pound for pound, this 1800lb
machine will out cut a Bridgeport any day and come back for
more. The reason I'm so excited about this is that I just finished
my first cuts with my newest cutter. I picked up a 5-1/2" face mill
for $12 ($2 a pound - gloat). It uses HSS blades, not inserts really,
but not a single piece mill either. I modified it (the body is
machinable steel) to fit over the Van Norman's spindle nose and
made a retainer that holds it on and engages the keyway in the
spindle nose. No arbor, no endmill holder or collet, no overhang.
I had six pieces of 1/2" x 4" 6061T6 that had been saw cut and
needed cleaned up. With a vertical, you use a 3/4" or so endmill
and maybe stack two pieces. With the Van Norman, I stacked all
six pieces on the table and clamped them down tight. I set the
spindle horizontal, mounted the face mill and went to town. The
pieces were about 5/8" too long, so I had a chance to play.
I wound up with a depth of cut of 0.300", cutting across the full 3"
height of the stack, with a feed of almost 5 ipm, or 0.070" per rev
at 70 RPM (100SFM). Try that on a vertical some time! I ran out
of metal to cut before I found the mill's limits. I really think it
would have been happy at twice the speed and feed, and
maybe even 0.400" depth of cut. That face mill is now known as
the Metal Muncher. I've got another similar job coming up, and
I'll try to borrow the digital camera from work and post a couple
of pics in the dropbox.
Price. As I said, I paid only $500 for my mill. I've seen others
on eBay for similar prices and they get no takers. I think most
people are simply unaware of what they can do. Everybody
wants something that looks like a Bridgeport.
John Kasunich
Thomas Gardner
Sorry I missed this before. I'm not a regular reader. Just
pop now and again when I have the time.
John, I agree wholeheartedly. I happen to be the lucky owner
of a VN #22 which I stole for $500 (~$0.125/lb - gloat). I was
lucky enough to get one of the bigger ones that John refers to
with the power feeds and rapid traverse in all 3 directions so
boring is certainly not a problem on this one. This one too
has a swiveling head that provides both horizontal and vertical
milling (or angle to anything in between, of course). I call
her the BBM, or Big Beautiful Mill. I too wouldn't trade her
for even 10 times what I paid for her. Although I'm a bit more
cautious than I probably need to be whilst hoggin' out steel
(having broken a tool or two in my day), I'm still amazed by the
amount of chips the old girl can produce in such a short period
of time and still hold whatever tolerance I want her to. I
think she could probably eat 3 Bridgeports for breakfast and
then start looking around the shop asking ``what else can I
make chips out of'' if I really let her go.
Indeed, lack of quill is a bit of a bummer, but I think they
did it for a very good reason. You can't tell me that the
quill doesn't come with a cost in rigidity and accuracy. Of
course for pokin' holes, it might be worth it. I've been
thinking about ways to make a quill that will fit down through
the spindle with an R8 taper on the end just for pokin'
holes. The spindle should be way more than big enough for
it. Thata way I'll have it both ways: No quill for all the
hoggin and when I wanna use it as an accurate drill press, I
can just pop the quill in.
Lack of R8 isn't really much of a problem. My #22 has a #50
taper in it, and you can buy a #50 to R8 adapter, which is
what I did. That provides me the ability to use the heavy
stuff when I can find it cheap (or if I ever feel I simply
must use it for some particular task), and when I have to buy
a piece of tooling for a particular task, I have the option
of getting the cheaper R8 version if I think that would be
up to the job.
Anyway, if you're shopping for a good quality mill and run
across one of these things, you might really wanna consider
it. If you run across one of the bigger ones with the power
feed and rapid traverse in all directions on the table, and if
it's at all possible to get it into the shop, really, REALLY
think *REALLY* HARD about it. Even if they were as expensive
as Bridgeports, I'd buy another in a heartbeat if I ever
needed another mill. Think about it: I don't even own a fly
cutter, and as long as I have the BBM, I never will. Why
should I when I can stick either a shell mill or face mill or
slab mill in, any one of which is probably wider than what you
can get your fly cutter to work well at? With that kinda
setup I can either do the little skim-cut thing that a fly
cutter does or if I need to take a good hunk out I can just
tell the old girl ``go deep,'' and she'll say ``OK. Watch
this!'' They are truly beautiful machines, IMHO.
Just my $0.02,
tg.
JMLATHE
John McCalla here. Hope things are go'in well. I did not realize that was you
post until I saw the "BBM" reference. Then it hit me . . . that's Tom.
Haven't been to Dempsey's for over two months. Been busy I guess; and already
have too much stuff. I know he's moved into his new building; not far from
old.
Take care, John
goldendr...@gmail.com
Steve W.
.003 run-out...
--
Steve W.
Ned Simmons
wrote:
>I have a question will any 5c collet work in a van Norman milling machine I have a chance to buy a van Norman with a 5c and was wandering if all 5c are the same or did van Norman mach them different I'm new to this so please for give my dumbness in asking this
are available, but are expensive. If the mill does use 5C collets, any
5C should fit. But I'd try a 5C for fit in the spindle before taking
the seller's word for it.
--
Ned Simmons
Larry Fisk
<goldendr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
have a chance to buy a van Norman with a 5c
http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/VN_Spindle.htm
Gunner Asch
marvelous machines..but heavier than fuck....so best be figuring how
to move it into position.
*..there are some normal variations..Chinese 5cs are often not as
nicely finished nor as true as US made collets..luck of the draw with
an Chicom import collet. Japanese, German, Spanish, US etc
collets...very good.
Gunner
Gunner Asch
wrote:
True indeed.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-VAN-NORMAN-5V-COLLET-7-16-/331593416263
I might..might be able to find some collets if they are 5V.
Gunner