OT, 8N will not start

[stryped]

I have been working on this thing off and on for over a year and the thing is still not running. I started into it last year hoping to be able to use it as a plow for my driveway. I still can not start it. To make it what I thought would be more reliable, I replaced the following: gas tank, spark plug wires, spark plugs, distributor (I broke the tang on my old one), coil, points, fuel bowel, etc. I checked the timing twice.

I rebuilt the carb and installed it this weekend. It started for a minute holding the choke in but then backfired and died and could not restart. (The few times I have gotten it to run in the last year it would run for a minute then backfire violently and not be able to restart). I bought a new carb from TSC as a last ditch effort yesterday. Still no start. Using an old spark plug yesterday grounded to the engine it does fire. If I crank on it long enough it acts like it fires for a split second because the starter disengages but never takes off. I can feel suction on the throat of the carb when cranking, however, I am not so sure the spark plugs are getting gas. It will not start when spraying starting fluid in the throat of the carb. I don't think spraying starting fluid in one of the spark plug holes and reinstalling the spark plug made a difference either.

As a last ditch effort, I checked compression with the throttle control wide open and no choke. Of course the engine was cold as I can not get it started. The following were the results I obtained:
1= 85psi
2= almost 90 psi
3= almost 90 psi
4= almost 80 psi

I then added 5w30 (all I had) motor oil into the spark plug holes one at a time. I probably used too much as I poured from a quart container, the space was tight, and it was getting dark. The following readings were obtained after the addition of oil:
1= 120 psi
2= 130 psi
3= 105 psi
4= 95 psi

I did notice after doing the wet test, oil was coming out of the carb throat.

I replaced the intake exhaust gasket last year because it had a leak.

I am just so frustrated and not sure what to do at this point.

[gghe...@gmail.com]

Not at all an expert, but backfiring and not running may be a timing thing.

You could try asking here.
http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/boards.cgi

George H.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

My suspicion, given what little "facts" we have is the timing is off
by 180 degrees at the distributor . Pull the plugs. Crank the engine
untill you get a rush of air out of #1 cyl then line up the timing
mark. Turn the ignition on and turn the distributor "backwards" until
the points just open, producing a spark at the coil. Make sure the
rotor points at the number one tower on the cap, and then make sure
the rest of the wires follow the firing order. That will ensure the
timing is close enough to run. Then make sure the spark plugs are
clean and dry with the proper gap, and make sure the spark is hot
enough to jump a 1/4 inch gap in open air. The spark needs to be a hot
blue spark. Make sure the coil is connected in the right direction
(polarity). On a negative ground system the points must be connected
to the negative side of the coil, and on a positive ground, on the
positive side.. Make sure the point gap is set to spec, the points are
clean, and the capacitor (condenser) is good and well grounded..

The final thing is drain ALL of the old gas out and start over with
fresh gasoline. I would use ethanol free gas if possible (usually that
means premium - what you use afterwardss is up to you - but for
initial startup at least, just humor me and use the "good stuff".
Prime the cyls with about 1/4 oz of fuel and start with the throttle
half open.

If you did all that properly the engine WILL start. No ifs, ands, or
buts about it.

[dpb]

On 10/17/2016 12:46 PM, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
...

> My suspicion, given what little "facts" we have is the timing is off

> by 180 degrees at the distributor. ...

Bingo! We have a winner... :)

[Mike Spencer]

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 9:21:52 AM UTC-4, stryped wrote:

> gghe...@gmail.com writes:
>
>> I am just so frustrated and not sure what to do at this point.

I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you never
know.

In the late 60s, we once had a 25HP VW Beetle in the shop. It would
start but ran very poorly, rough and no power. Borderline but uniform
compression. All the usual stuff gave no improvement. The owner
agreed to a rebuild. It was someting of a project to get all the
parts for a (then already) old model.

Because we had been stumped, we went overboard with scrutiny. Every
part was checked against original VW specs. No ring, valve, bearing,
cam, gear, piston, sleeve or anything was out of spec. No signs of
damage or excessive wear in places for which there were no specs such
as seals and gaskets.

Put it all together and it ran like a top. We never knew what we had
fixed.

> Not at all an expert, but backfiring and not running may be a timing
> thing.

Cam wear or timing? Valves not opening right would allow OK
compression but inhibit fire.

> You could try asking here.
> http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/boards.cgi

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[Gunner Asch]

On 17 Oct 2016 15:03:01 -0300, Mike Spencer

<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 9:21:52 AM UTC-4, stryped wrote:
>
>> gghe...@gmail.com writes:
>>
>>> I am just so frustrated and not sure what to do at this point.
>
>I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you never
>know.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Gunner Asch]

On 17 Oct 2016 15:03:01 -0300, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 9:21:52 AM UTC-4, stryped wrote:
>
>> gghe...@gmail.com writes:
>>
>>> I am just so frustrated and not sure what to do at this point.
>
>I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you never
>know.

This is an 8N

http://tractorsinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Ford-8N-Tractor-Tire.jpg

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 13:46:42 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>>
>>You could try asking here.
>>http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi-bin/boards.cgi
>>
>>George H.
> My suspicion, given what little "facts" we have is the timing is off
>by 180 degrees at the distributor

Indeed. Or the spark plug wires are in the wrong order.

Ive mentioned the issue I had with my forklift when I got it. SAME
identical problem. Someone had put the wrong plug wires on the wrong
terminals (intentionally)

[Bob La Londe]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:76ba0c5c1r0fjajte...@4ax.com...

> On 17 Oct 2016 15:03:01 -0300, Mike Spencer
> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 9:21:52 AM UTC-4, stryped wrote:
>>
>>> gghe...@gmail.com writes:
>>>
>>>> I am just so frustrated and not sure what to do at this point.
>>
>>I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you never
>>know.
>
> This is an 8N
>
> http://tractorsinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Ford-8N-Tractor-Tire.jpg
>

That is a LOVINGLY RESTORED 8N.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

dpb <no...@non.net> fired this volley in news:nu33hs$7be$2...@dont-email.me:

>
> Bingo! We have a winner... :)

Huh... Betcha anything he's got some plug wires swapped. I had an 8N for
fifteen years. You really _can't_ screw up the timing so badly that it
would be 180 out.

Lloyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> fired this volley in
news:19ba0chpec33tuga6...@4ax.com:

>
> Indeed. Or the spark plug wires are in the wrong order.
>
>

Bingo!
L

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Bob La Londe" <no...@none.com99> fired this volley in news:nu3dlb$egs$1
@dont-email.me:

>
> That is a LOVINGLY RESTORED 8N.

'Had one for fifteen years. I fully restored it, and it mowed, graded, and
did all the stuff a 36HP tractor shouldn't be able to do!

Lloyd

[stryped]

This 8n has the front mount distributor. There really is no way to get the distributor 180 out. It has tanks on the bottom of the distributor that engage the cam. It will only go on one way. It also has a square can ignition coil on top of the distributor.

Distributor is similar to this: http://www.my9n.com/timing.htm

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

stryped <stry...@yahoo.com> fired this volley in news:329f1a87-9d96-4e8d-
ae31-c08...@googlegroups.com:

> There really is no way to get the distributor 180 out

Like I said. I owned one. You've got plug wires swapped. I'd be willing
to bet on it.

L

[Bob La Londe]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA6A4B0B375925ll...@216.168.4.170...

I don't know. My 10 year old 33hp 4wd John Deere, drives a 12" auger in
caliche, Rototills 60" wide, and will suck up steel water pipe and even
solid steel concrete form stakes with enough power to wrap it around between
the tines and keep going. (have to cut it out with a torch) The 700lb
payload bucket has even been used to lower over 2000lbs (with bucket forks)
from a truck bed to the ground once or twice. I use a blade (that's way to
big for it) to plow/rip trenches when needed, and it has so far never failed
to pull itself out of its own holes when I shift it to 4WD and stand on the
locker lever. When I have had to slear brush cutting the stump jumper will
suck up a lost water hose and spit out little 1 foot chunks without even
slowing down.

33HP is a lot when properly applied.

My grandfather ran a John Deere model M since 1950 which while a larger
frame develops probably even less gross HP. My dad has that tractor now.
I've seen that tractor hit a root ball and do a wheely.

[dpb]

Putting it in reversed'll do it... :)

[dpb]

On 10/17/2016 5:07 PM, stryped wrote:
...

> This 8n has the front mount distributor. There really is no way to

> getthe distributor 180 out. It has tanks on the bottom of the distributor
> that engage the cam. It will only go on one way. ...

Hmmm, well, ok, if you says so...never had one and certainly have seen
any number of other engines that would be quite easy to do so...

I'd've thunk you'd checked firing order and wiring many multiple times
by now already, though, as for just a order...

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 17 Oct 2016 15:03:01 -0300, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>

>On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 9:21:52 AM UTC-4, stryped wrote:
>
>> gghe...@gmail.com writes:
>>
>>> I am just so frustrated and not sure what to do at this point.
>
>I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you never
>know.
>

8n is an old Ford tractor produced fron 1939 to 1952.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Sure you can. Just start with #1 wire where #4 should be. Firing order
1243. The timing marks line up perfectly both wats.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Same thing - if he did it "almost" right. Same order but half a turn
out.
The timing mark is behind a removeable plug - on the flywheel.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 15:07:25 -0700 (PDT), stryped <stry...@yahoo.com>

90 and 180 degrees out is simple. Just start from the wrong hole - -
-

[Mike Spencer]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 17 Oct 2016 15:03:01 -0300, Mike Spencer
> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you
>> never know.
>
> This is an 8N
>
> http://tractorsinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Ford-8N-Tractor-Tire.jpg

Oh, right. Thanks. Shiny! I'm pretty sure I saw ones like in use
decades ago that were...ummm... not shiny. :-)

There's a club here that does restorations like that but their
clubhouse/workshop is 90 miles away. I try go get to their shows but
they're too far away to get to the regular meets. They're into
single-bangers, too, and I have a couple of those but no rig to take
them to the shows.

[Gunner Asch]

Firing order is 1243 as I recall.

[Gunner Asch]

On 18 Oct 2016 03:29:45 -0300, Mike Spencer

<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 17 Oct 2016 15:03:01 -0300, Mike Spencer
>> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you
>>> never know.
>>
>> This is an 8N
>>
>> http://tractorsinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Ford-8N-Tractor-Tire.jpg
>
>Oh, right. Thanks. Shiny! I'm pretty sure I saw ones like in use
>decades ago that were...ummm... not shiny. :-)
>
>There's a club here that does restorations like that but their
>clubhouse/workshop is 90 miles away. I try go get to their shows but
>they're too far away to get to the regular meets. They're into
>single-bangers, too, and I have a couple of those but no rig to take
>them to the shows.

Im looking or a Hit N Miss engine to play with, if anyone runs into
one.

Gunner

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:5qmb0c14oqrab0qs8...@4ax.com...

> On 18 Oct 2016 03:29:45 -0300, Mike Spencer
> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>>
>>Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 17 Oct 2016 15:03:01 -0300, Mike Spencer
>>> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you
>>>> never know.
>>>
>>> This is an 8N
>>>
>>> http://tractorsinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Ford-8N-Tractor-Tire.jpg
>>
>>Oh, right. Thanks. Shiny! I'm pretty sure I saw ones like in use
>>decades ago that were...ummm... not shiny. :-)
>>
>>There's a club here that does restorations like that but their
>>clubhouse/workshop is 90 miles away. I try go get to their shows
>>but
>>they're too far away to get to the regular meets. They're into
>>single-bangers, too, and I have a couple of those but no rig to take
>>them to the shows.
>
>
> Im looking or a Hit N Miss engine to play with, if anyone runs into
> one.
>
> Gunner

The owner of a local surplus store is trying to get me to make a gear
for an antique cement mixer run from one of his hit & miss engines. I
told him to make a smoothly meshing sheet metal mockup of what he
wants, to use as a template for a form cutter, though I suspect it
will be too large for my Clausing mill to drive unless he'll accept an
aluminum gear.
--jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 08:26:41 -0700 (PDT), gghe...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 9:21:52 AM UTC-4, stryped wrote:
>> I did notice after doing the wet test, oil was coming out of the carb throat.

<giggle>

>Not at all an expert, but backfiring and not running may be a timing thing.

Crom! Nothing online here today except 15 replies to a known troll?

--
If government were a product,
selling it would be illegal.
--P.J. O'Rourke

[stryped]

Here is the video of the spark I am getting. It was made quickly last night....

https://youtu.be/uD0WS6WOkFY

[jeff]

Just a thought, last one I worked on with a similar problem had a cap that didn't fit quite right onto the distributor. Ended up having to add a shim under the retaining strap to keep it running till the owner got a different cap.

Try having someone hold down on the cap to firmly seat it to the distributor while cranking it over.

[Steve Walker]

On 10/17/2016 9:21 AM, stryped wrote:
> I have been working on this thing off and on for over a year and the thing is still not running. I started into it last year hoping to be able to use it as a plow for my driveway. I still can not start it. To make it what I thought would be more reliable, I replaced the following: gas tank, spark plug wires, spark plugs, distributor (I broke the tang on my old one), coil, points, fuel bowel, etc. I checked the timing twice.
>
> I rebuilt the carb and installed it this weekend. It started for a minute holding the choke in but then backfired and died and could not restart. (The few times I have gotten it to run in the last year it would run for a minute then backfire violently and not be able to restart). I bought a new carb from TSC as a last ditch effort yesterday. Still no start. Using an old spark plug yesterday grounded to the engine it does fire. If I crank on it long enough it acts like it fires for a split second because the starter disengages but never takes off. I can feel suction on the throat of the carb when cranking, however, I am not so sure the spark plugs are getting gas. It will not start when spraying starting fluid in the throat of the carb. I don't think spraying starting fluid in one of the spark plug holes and reinstalling the spark plug made a difference either.
>
> As a last ditch effort, I checked compression with the throttle control wide open and no choke. Of course the engine was cold as I can not get it started. The following were the results I obtained:
> 1= 85psi
> 2= almost 90 psi
> 3= almost 90 psi
> 4= almost 80 psi
>
> I then added 5w30 (all I had) motor oil into the spark plug holes one at a time. I probably used too much as I poured from a quart container, the space was tight, and it was getting dark. The following readings were obtained after the addition of oil:
> 1= 120 psi
> 2= 130 psi
> 3= 105 psi
> 4= 95 psi
>

> I did notice after doing the wet test, oil was coming out of the carb throat.
>

> I replaced the intake exhaust gasket last year because it had a leak.
>
> I am just so frustrated and not sure what to do at this point.
>

I don't know diddley about tractors, but look at the image on this page:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/parts-repairs/268506-8n-will-fire-but-not-8.html

[Steve Walker]

I forgot about a similar problem I had back in the early 80's with a
1966 Plymouth. Would almost start. New plugs, wires, cap, points,
condenser, the works. Turned out condenser was bad, even though it was
new. 2 days messing around.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 18 Oct 2016 21:37:09 -0400, Steve Walker <Im...@home.com>
wrote:

IF he is getting a hot blue spark the condenser is OK. If it is
weakand orange it may well be the problem.

[PaxPerPoten]

On 10/18/2016 3:20 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On 18 Oct 2016 03:29:45 -0300, Mike Spencer
> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>>
>> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 17 Oct 2016 15:03:01 -0300, Mike Spencer
>>> <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know what an "8N" is but whatever it is, sometimes you
>>>> never know.
>>>
>>> This is an 8N
>>>
>>> http://tractorsinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Ford-8N-Tractor-Tire.jpg
>>
>> Oh, right. Thanks. Shiny! I'm pretty sure I saw ones like in use
>> decades ago that were...ummm... not shiny. :-)
>>
>> There's a club here that does restorations like that but their
>> clubhouse/workshop is 90 miles away. I try go get to their shows but
>> they're too far away to get to the regular meets. They're into
>> single-bangers, too, and I have a couple of those but no rig to take
>> them to the shows.
>
>
> Im looking or a Hit N Miss engine to play with, if anyone runs into
> one.

Arnold Schneider of Sioux Falls, South Dakota has several of those and
in good working order.

>
> Gunner
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

--
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but *They mean to govern*. They promise to
be good masters, *but they mean to be masters*. Daniel Webster

[MOP CAP]

Google Early Day Gas Engine and Tractor Ass. There are branches all
over the US. At their "Gas Up's"
There are usually some for sale.
CP