Welding 4130

[Ed Huntress]

I mentioned a while ago that Fab Shop would be publishing an article
about welding 4130 steel, written by a specialist at Hobart. It's in
the current issue:

http://magazine.fsmdirect.com/2016/sept/d/#page7

It was being edited as I made my exit from the magazine, so it's
missing a couple of things I had wanted to include, and I didn't do
the final edit. But it's still helpful to anyone who wants some expert
advice on welding the stuff. Blaine Guy knows what he's saying.

--
Ed Huntress

[Leon Fisk]

Thanks Ed. Downloaded the whole mag to peruse later...

You should watch Jody's latest youtube video too. Some real world TIG
aluminum casting repair. It shows crack detection, prep, filling...
lots of nice little tips. Also a few little tidbits in the comments
here and there besides "cool!", "you're the best!" ;-)

Tig Welding Cast Aluminum Outboard Jet Pump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyFo-JP4fDQ

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

[Ed Huntress]

That's really impressive. I imagine how much practice that must take
to get the feel for doing that. That's why we have pros.

--
Ed Huntress

[Leon Fisk]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 13:40:08 -0400
Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 13:22:20 -0400, Leon Fisk
><lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:

<snip>

>>Tig Welding Cast Aluminum Outboard Jet Pump
>>
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyFo-JP4fDQ
>
>That's really impressive. I imagine how much practice that must take
>to get the feel for doing that. That's why we have pros.

Yeah, he admits that he probably wouldn't do the job if it wasn't for a
friend.

Those are the kind of repairs I would like to know about down the road
several years...

I welded up a neighbors broken grass shoe earlier this summer for his
JD #5 Sickle Mower. It was in two pieces and had already been
welded/fixed a long time ago. Cast iron, never tried welding that
before. I bought some Forney Noma-Cast rod to try. Nickle rod is just
way too expensive for my fooling around abilities...

So far it has held together for at least one mow job. I had my doubts
it would even last that long ;-)

[Ed Huntress]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:07:34 -0400, Leon Fisk

<lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 13:40:08 -0400
>Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 13:22:20 -0400, Leon Fisk
>><lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:
><snip>
>>>Tig Welding Cast Aluminum Outboard Jet Pump
>>>
>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyFo-JP4fDQ
>>
>>That's really impressive. I imagine how much practice that must take
>>to get the feel for doing that. That's why we have pros.
>
>Yeah, he admits that he probably wouldn't do the job if it wasn't for a
>friend.
>
>Those are the kind of repairs I would like to know about down the road
>several years...
>
>I welded up a neighbors broken grass shoe earlier this summer for his
>JD #5 Sickle Mower. It was in two pieces and had already been
>welded/fixed a long time ago. Cast iron, never tried welding that
>before. I bought some Forney Noma-Cast rod to try. Nickle rod is just
>way too expensive for my fooling around abilities...
>
>So far it has held together for at least one mow job. I had my doubts
>it would even last that long ;-)

Did you see that butt-welded tube photo in the Fab Shop article? That
was a certification piece that my welding instructor welded around 15
years ago.It's normalized 4130 welded with 4130 filler -- the
worst-case combination. He's a certified U.S. Air Force airframe
welder, and he has to be re-certified every year.

Anyway, looking at it, and thinking about my own welding
(in)experience, I thought I could break that with one or two hammer
blows. I asked him if I could have it and then I proceeded to beat the
crap out of it.

It wouldn't break. Finally, I got a tiny little crack to show up where
I had folded it over and smashed it some more.

The whole thing is a series of mysteries. Serious welding instruction
these days includes quite a bit of basic metallurgy. I think that's a
good thing.

--
Ed Huntress

[Leon Fisk]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:17:09 -0400
Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:

<snip>

>Did you see that butt-welded tube photo in the Fab Shop article? That
>was a certification piece that my welding instructor welded around 15
>years ago.It's normalized 4130 welded with 4130 filler -- the
>worst-case combination. He's a certified U.S. Air Force airframe
>welder, and he has to be re-certified every year.
>
>Anyway, looking at it, and thinking about my own welding
>(in)experience, I thought I could break that with one or two hammer
>blows. I asked him if I could have it and then I proceeded to beat the
>crap out of it.
>
>It wouldn't break. Finally, I got a tiny little crack to show up where
>I had folded it over and smashed it some more.

That was a good weld. You might get the tube to crack doing that to it
without any weld area involved...

>The whole thing is a series of mysteries. Serious welding instruction
>these days includes quite a bit of basic metallurgy. I think that's a
>good thing.

If you go back through Jody's videos and info he covers a fair amount
on metallurgy. For people in the trade and serious about welding it is
important, that is for sure.

After watching, reading stuff available on the web today I'm nothing
but an amateur welder, if that. I'm best sticking stuff together with a
MIG and ER70S solid wire in horizontal position. Nothing special...

[Ed Huntress]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:06:26 -0400, Leon Fisk
<lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:17:09 -0400
>Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>>Did you see that butt-welded tube photo in the Fab Shop article? That
>>was a certification piece that my welding instructor welded around 15
>>years ago.It's normalized 4130 welded with 4130 filler -- the
>>worst-case combination. He's a certified U.S. Air Force airframe
>>welder, and he has to be re-certified every year.
>>
>>Anyway, looking at it, and thinking about my own welding
>>(in)experience, I thought I could break that with one or two hammer
>>blows. I asked him if I could have it and then I proceeded to beat the
>>crap out of it.
>>
>>It wouldn't break. Finally, I got a tiny little crack to show up where
>>I had folded it over and smashed it some more.
>
>That was a good weld. You might get the tube to crack doing that to it
>without any weld area involved...

Right. It tells you something about that chrome-moly 4130, too. In the
normalized condition, which is how most of the tubing is sold, its
strength and hardness are virtually identical to that of DOM 1070. But
the 4130 has twice the elongation (25% versus 12%), so it's much more
ductile.

>
>>The whole thing is a series of mysteries. Serious welding instruction
>>these days includes quite a bit of basic metallurgy. I think that's a
>>good thing.
>
>If you go back through Jody's videos and info he covers a fair amount
>on metallurgy. For people in the trade and serious about welding it is
>important, that is for sure.
>
>After watching, reading stuff available on the web today I'm nothing
>but an amateur welder, if that. I'm best sticking stuff together with a
>MIG and ER70S solid wire in horizontal position. Nothing special...

Me, too.

--
Ed Huntress

[Leon Fisk]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:17:09 -0400
Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:

<snipped all>

After reading your introduction as Editor and pending exit I remembered
listening to this last summer while getting in some exercise:

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/01/335303653/what-can-kids-learn-by-doing-dangerous-things

Direct download link (~8mb):

https://ondemand.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/ted/2014/08/20140801_ted_01.mp3

Something like 10 minutes long. It is a good show (TED Radio Hour) from
week-to-week but I rarely manage to listen to it...

[Ed Huntress]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 15:21:08 -0400, Leon Fisk
<lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:17:09 -0400
>Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
><snipped all>
>
>After reading your introduction as Editor and pending exit I remembered
>listening to this last summer while getting in some exercise:
>
>http://www.npr.org/2014/08/01/335303653/what-can-kids-learn-by-doing-dangerous-things
>
>Direct download link (~8mb):
>
>https://ondemand.npr.org/anon.npr-mp3/npr/ted/2014/08/20140801_ted_01.mp3
>
>Something like 10 minutes long. It is a good show (TED Radio Hour) from
>week-to-week but I rarely manage to listen to it...

Ha! Yeah, I remember that one. I listened to it a long time ago --
maybe you pointed it out. I loved it.

There so much good stuff around to read and watch, like TED. It's
really tempting to spend too much time with it, now that I'm not on a
schedule.

--
Ed Huntress

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:07:34 -0400, Leon Fisk

<lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 13:40:08 -0400
>Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 13:22:20 -0400, Leon Fisk
>><lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:
><snip>
>>>Tig Welding Cast Aluminum Outboard Jet Pump
>>>
>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyFo-JP4fDQ
>>
>>That's really impressive. I imagine how much practice that must take
>>to get the feel for doing that. That's why we have pros.
>
>Yeah, he admits that he probably wouldn't do the job if it wasn't for a
>friend.
>
>Those are the kind of repairs I would like to know about down the road
>several years...
>
>I welded up a neighbors broken grass shoe earlier this summer for his
>JD #5 Sickle Mower. It was in two pieces and had already been
>welded/fixed a long time ago. Cast iron, never tried welding that
>before. I bought some Forney Noma-Cast rod to try. Nickle rod is just
>way too expensive for my fooling around abilities...
>
>So far it has held together for at least one mow job. I had my doubts
>it would even last that long ;-)

A friend and I have had good results welding cast with stainless
steel mig wire - using TIG and pre-heating the heck out of it. Have
had very good results on cracked exhaust manifolds, as well as cast
depth control sector on old John Deere tractor. Several of the
repaired parts are over 10 years old in regular use.

[Leon Fisk]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 22:34:02 -0400
cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:07:34 -0400, Leon Fisk
><lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:

<snip>

>>I welded up a neighbors broken grass shoe earlier this summer for his
>>JD #5 Sickle Mower. It was in two pieces and had already been
>>welded/fixed a long time ago. Cast iron, never tried welding that
>>before. I bought some Forney Noma-Cast rod to try. Nickle rod is just
>>way too expensive for my fooling around abilities...
>>
>>So far it has held together for at least one mow job. I had my doubts
>>it would even last that long ;-)

> A friend and I have had good results welding cast with stainless
>steel mig wire - using TIG and pre-heating the heck out of it. Have
>had very good results on cracked exhaust manifolds, as well as cast
>depth control sector on old John Deere tractor. Several of the
>repaired parts are over 10 years old in regular use.

Clare, thanks for the tip. I'll add it to my welding cast iron notes.
Stainless filler rod has around 10% nickel depending on the type. Quite
a bit more chromium. I'm sure the nickel is helpful. This is where the
metallurgy education would be of use. What does the chromium do, help
or hinder the weld...

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 09:26:44 -0400, Leon Fisk

<lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 22:34:02 -0400
>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:07:34 -0400, Leon Fisk
>><lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>>>I welded up a neighbors broken grass shoe earlier this summer for his
>>>JD #5 Sickle Mower. It was in two pieces and had already been
>>>welded/fixed a long time ago. Cast iron, never tried welding that
>>>before. I bought some Forney Noma-Cast rod to try. Nickle rod is just
>>>way too expensive for my fooling around abilities...
>>>
>>>So far it has held together for at least one mow job. I had my doubts
>>>it would even last that long ;-)
>
>> A friend and I have had good results welding cast with stainless
>>steel mig wire - using TIG and pre-heating the heck out of it. Have
>>had very good results on cracked exhaust manifolds, as well as cast
>>depth control sector on old John Deere tractor. Several of the
>>repaired parts are over 10 years old in regular use.
>
>Clare, thanks for the tip. I'll add it to my welding cast iron notes.
>Stainless filler rod has around 10% nickel depending on the type. Quite
>a bit more chromium. I'm sure the nickel is helpful. This is where the
>metallurgy education would be of use. What does the chromium do, help
>or hinder the weld...

No idea if the chromium helps or hinders - I just know it has worked
very well for me.

Chromium in cast iron acts as a carbide stabilizer, so I doubt it has
any bad effect on the weld when used as an alloy in the filler rod.
In cast iron it also reduces free graphite. Again, likely can't hurt

[Ed Huntress]

I have never welded cast iron, but I've read a lot about it for
article research. So this is second-hand info.

In general, austenitic stainless has two virtues for welding other
materials: it's ductile, and because it's austenitic, it can absorb a
lot of carbon from the base metal (c.i. is loaded with it) without
becoming brittle.

This has led a lot of people to use stainless filler for welding c.i.
The 309 and 309L grades seem to be preferred. But when experts comment
on it, they often say it's something you "can get away with," and it's
not as effective or as reliable as high-nickel filler metals made for
welding c.i.

--
Ed Huntress

[Gunner Asch]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 14:07:55 -0400, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

When welding cast iron, even with stainless mig wire...PREHEAT the
hell out of your work. Use a rosebud and get it as close to a dull red
heat as you can, then weld it...then keep it hot for a few
minutes...playing the rosebud over the entire (or as close to the
entire piece as you can) piece, then cover it with
something..vermiculite is good..and let it S..l..o..w..l..y....cool
down. Always use 309 stainless..no matter if its rod, wire or
filler. Its the closest thing to the best match. It will be a good
weld, assuming the cast iron of the work piece is worth a shit. Some
cast iron..is garbage...things like machine port covers etc..




Gunner

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[John B.]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 09:26:44 -0400, Leon Fisk

<lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 22:34:02 -0400
>cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 14:07:34 -0400, Leon Fisk
>><lf...@no.spam.iserv.net> wrote:
>
><snip>
>>>I welded up a neighbors broken grass shoe earlier this summer for his
>>>JD #5 Sickle Mower. It was in two pieces and had already been
>>>welded/fixed a long time ago. Cast iron, never tried welding that
>>>before. I bought some Forney Noma-Cast rod to try. Nickle rod is just
>>>way too expensive for my fooling around abilities...
>>>
>>>So far it has held together for at least one mow job. I had my doubts
>>>it would even last that long ;-)
>
>> A friend and I have had good results welding cast with stainless
>>steel mig wire - using TIG and pre-heating the heck out of it. Have
>>had very good results on cracked exhaust manifolds, as well as cast
>>depth control sector on old John Deere tractor. Several of the
>>repaired parts are over 10 years old in regular use.
>
>Clare, thanks for the tip. I'll add it to my welding cast iron notes.
>Stainless filler rod has around 10% nickel depending on the type. Quite
>a bit more chromium. I'm sure the nickel is helpful. This is where the
>metallurgy education would be of use. What does the chromium do, help
>or hinder the weld...

Way back when I was at an airbase that had a Boeing team rebuilding
the heat and pressurization system on B-52's and as the system has a
lot of stainless ducting there was a half a dozen welders industrially
tigging the ducts all day.

One of them came to me and asked if I would machine a head flat if he
welded a crack in it and I told him "sure". A couple of days later he
brought a 6 cylinder head in with about an inch of tig welding on it.
I jigged it up and took a light cut with a fly cutter and when the
cutter hit the weld it took the end off the cutter bit.

I tried it with a file and the file just skated over the bead.

I finished the job on the surface grinder but my experience in that
case and several afterwards is that welding cast iron with stainless
rod can result in diamond hard beads. Whether these beads tend to be
brittle enough to matter I have no idea.

--
cheers,

John B.