It Worked !!!

[et...@whidbey.com]

My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to
my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with
thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite.
I insulated the pipes before covering them with the drywall. I
then put insulation down inside the corrugations to insulate the
walls. But I think some rodents got into the insulation. Whatever
happened when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
will freeze.
I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem. So I
leave the taps slightly dripping when the weather gets too cold. I now
have a little water heater under the sink so that the main water
heater is off most of the time. I turn off the under sink heater when
the tap is dripping.
So my system works except when I forget to leave the water
dripping. And I did that yesterday. Coming in to work this morning I
discovered the frozen pipe problem. Besides the hassle of no water one
day the pipes are going to burst and then I WILL need to tear into the
wall.
But maybe I have hit on a solution. The water pipes going into the
main water heater are connected to each other with a heavy copper wire
just before the heater connections. This is to comply with the
building code.
So I figured if I connected some power to the pipes right at the
wall stops I could maybe get them to heat up enough to thaw them. I
measured the resistance from stop to stop and it was 4 ohms. The stops
are plumbed to the sink taps with plastic pipe so I know the
resistance I measured was through the supply pipes.
So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
the taps.
So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
Thanks,
Eric

[whit3rd]

On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 1:47:33 PM UTC-8, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
> My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes to

> my bathroom sink... when the temp drops below about 30 degrees the bathroom pipes
> will freeze.

> ... my system works except when I forget to leave the water
> dripping.

> So I plugged in a Variac, plugged my battery charger into the
> Variac, and connected the battery charger leads to the wall stops.
> Then I dialed up the voltage until the charger was putting out about
> 18 amps. Checking about an hour later I see water is now flowing from
> the taps.

Two potential problems: firstly, there's volts applied, and that can accelerate
corrosion (of the tank, the pipes, or even buried exterior pipes). Any
changes (new water heater, somewhere down the line) can change your
circuit, too.
Second, the toilet tank/bowl might also be freeze-able.

Me, I wrapped some heat tape around the pipes that get coldest,
and I'm happy with that. Tiewraps and an oversheath of
snap-on insulation are also applied. That only applies to some crawlspace
in my case, but in yours a bit of heat (like an electric thermostat/fan gizmo)
could make your restroom more cold-friendly.

Thanks for the reminder! I've just verified that the heat tape is
working (drawing power), with a handy Kill-o-Watt. It's something
of a comfort to know that the years haven't undone that precaution.

[Larry Jaques]

Thermostatically controlled pipe heaters start at under $20.

https://is.gd/6QtzdU Amazon

--
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:53:08 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

Used to be a common practice to thaw pipes on the farm with the old
"buzz-box" lincoln TombStone welder. Set it to a low current ,,
connect the cables, turn it on and walk away. You knew the job was
done when the water found it's way out of the split pipe - - - -

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
news:0hg19d97k0irdhabv...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:53:08 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:
>
>> My shop is a steel building similar to a quonset hut. The pipes
>> to
>>my bathroom sink run down inside one of the deep corrugations. The
>>bathroom walls are covered in drywall which in turn is covered with

>>thin sheets of vinyl covered Masonite......

>> I am not eager to tear into the wall to find the problem.
>

> Thermostatically controlled pipe heaters start at under $20.
>
> https://is.gd/6QtzdU Amazon

I'm looking for inconspicuous trim screws to replace the tiny ring
nails that held on window and door trim I removed to upgrade the
insulation. Everything I've found has a head many times larger than
the nails'.

If an industrial appearance is acceptable "wafer head" screws may be
the answer.
http://www.allpointsfasteners.com/WaferHeadSelfDrillingScrews.html

-jsw

[dca...@krl.org]

On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 9:40:41 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
>> > Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?
> >Thanks,
> >Eric
> Used to be a common practice to thaw pipes on the farm with the old
> "buzz-box" lincoln TombStone welder. Set it to a low current ,,
> connect the cables, turn it on and walk away. You knew the job was
> done when the water found it's way out of the split pipe - - - -

WHen I lived in Huntsville, we lived at the base of Monte Santo Mountain and the house was sitting on limestone. Unfortunately the water line ran under the car port and was not insulated. BUt it was metal pipe. So when it was really cold it froze under the cement. And I did pretty much the same thing. Except for using a welder instead of a battery charger. It did not freeze every year so I never made anything more compact. I expect it does not freeze every year where you are, so hardly worth the effort to make something dedicated .

Dan

[Jim Wilkins]

<et...@whidbey.com> wrote in message
news:gv119dhshmqe1sea0...@4ax.com...

18 Amps thru 4 Ohms requires 72V. That's quite some battery charger!

[Larry Jaques]

Trim head deck screws might be good there, and they come in colors.
Some are self-drilling, others would require a pilot hole for trim to
prevent splitting.
https://www.strongtie.com/collatedexteriorwoodscrews_collatedscrews/dthq_cscrew/p/trim-head-screw--type-17-point

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 21:40:39 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

But I don't think that's a long-term fix, plus it doesn't prevent the
freezing which might burst a pipe in the first place.

The worst I ever saw was an overhead pipe in a winter garage.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/781100/frozen-pipes-burst-share-your-experience
and
http://www.saukplainsplumbing.com/winterization-tips-home-and-cabin-in-middleton-wi/
top picture

[et...@whidbey.com]

It does freeze here every year. Less so on average each year though...
Eric

[et...@whidbey.com]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:13:37 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The bathroom doesn't get cold enough to freeze. It's cold coming from
the outside that is freezing the pipes. To wrap the pipes I would need
to cut open the walls, which I am loathe to do.
The pipes I'm energizing don't go underground. And the hot water
pipe is shorted out to the cold water pipe before the water heater. So
I don't think any power is running through the water heater.
Eric

[Clare Snyder]

My post was just to say 2 things.

1) the concept works
2) prevention is better than "cure"

In my work at the insurance brokerage I saw pictures of a house that
was left un-occupied in the winter and pipes burst due to furnace
failure. Streams of ice flowed out under the doors, and the walls were
forced off the foundation by the expansion of the ice inside the
house. The foundation was also badly broken - everything lower than 3
feet from the main floor was a total loss

Then there's my buddy who goes to texas every winter. He drainsthe
pipes and shuts off the water, and sets the thermostat to about 40F.

He left in a bit of a rush this year and did not confirm the shutoff
valve had actually closed completely. Whenhe checked his water bill
online a month later he found he was charged for enough water to fill
his pool about 4 times - - -. I went over to check the house for him
and found the laundry room floor in the basement totally soaked and a
streem of water from his pipe drain hose flowing over the top of his
"catch the last drop" bucket and (thankfully) down the cellar drain.

Damage limitted to the carpet tiles and drifloor underlay being
soaked. Running the dehumidifier for a week with the thermostat up to
70 took care of that.

The huge water bill will searve as a reminderto CHECK AND CONFIRM next
time - and to leave the laundry tub tap open instead of the drain hose
when he leaves - - - -

[Martin Eastburn]

18 amps through 1 ohm requires 18v.
18 amps through 1.5 ohm requires 12v.
I doubt that someone without special equipment could measure resistance
to some be so close. Most don't zero the machine or rely on an old battery
to provide a reference.

Martin

[Jim Wilkins]

"Martin Eastburn" <lion...@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:s5pkC.103984$NZ2....@fx40.iad...
....

> 18 amps through 1 ohm requires 18v.

> 18 amps through 1.5 ohm requires 12v. [??]

> I doubt that someone without special equipment could measure
> resistance
> to some be so close. Most don't zero the machine or rely on an old
> battery
> to provide a reference.
>
> Martin

Agreed, I have a DVM that reads 5 Ohms or more with the probes
shorted.

OTOH, I've measured the drop in milliVolts across the 12 AWG wiring to
my solar panels while passing 1.00A or 5.00A through it, and then for
comparison measured the wire resistance with this meter .
https://www.amazon.com/Signstek-UT61E-Digital-Multimeters-Multitester/dp/B00Y0C4G9U
The UT61E's reading matched within 0.1 Ohm and showed where I still
had 14 AWG wire in the system.
-jsw

[Clare Snyder]

Funny how everyone forgets the resistance of the multimeter leads.
0.7 ohms is not out of the ordinary. Also your typical Harbor Fright
free multitester is only about 50% accurate under 10 ohms.

[Pete Keillor]

We used a welder every day for preheating the discharge pipe on the
mag pump. The pipes had welded on tabs just to provide a place to
clamp the leads. This was to pump molten magnesium from the
collection well in the experimental electrolytic cell into the
crucible car below.

I redesigned that pump. The original used air motors, angle iron
frame, about a 6' shaft to the impeller with graphite bearings every
couple feet. I went with a shaft tapered from 2" to 1/2", no
bearings, and a belt drive to eliminate an in-line connection to the
motor. Eliminated most of the maintenance.

That's the first time I ever saw a taper attachment. I had designed
the shaft with a series of steps, and the shop guys called me over and
asked if a taper would do, since it was a lot easier to cut with the
taper attachment. Designing stuff, then getting to spend time with
the machinists in the shop was where I really got the bug.

Pete Keillor

[Jim Wilkins]

"Clare Snyder" <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:98e49d5ajbadcofoh...@4ax.com...

For comparison, the battery charger I made from a Powerstat and a
"50A" welding transformer delivered 18A at 36.9V in the full load
current vs output voltage test. My goal was 20A at 28V for at least
1/2 hour without exceeding 75C. It can put 25A continuously into a
discharged 24V battery, or briefly at least 70A into a 1.000 milliOhm
shunt.
-jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 15:10:29 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

Agreed. I wish I had thought of it when my pipe froze but didn't
burst a decade ago.

> In my work at the insurance brokerage I saw pictures of a house that
>was left un-occupied in the winter and pipes burst due to furnace
>failure. Streams of ice flowed out under the doors, and the walls were
>forced off the foundation by the expansion of the ice inside the
>house. The foundation was also badly broken - everything lower than 3
>feet from the main floor was a total loss

Wow, that must have been amazing to see.

> Then there's my buddy who goes to texas every winter. He drainsthe
>pipes and shuts off the water, and sets the thermostat to about 40F.
>
>He left in a bit of a rush this year and did not confirm the shutoff
>valve had actually closed completely. Whenhe checked his water bill
>online a month later he found he was charged for enough water to fill
>his pool about 4 times - - -. I went over to check the house for him
>and found the laundry room floor in the basement totally soaked and a
>streem of water from his pipe drain hose flowing over the top of his
>"catch the last drop" bucket and (thankfully) down the cellar drain.

Ho boy. He was blinkin' lucky.

>Damage limitted to the carpet tiles and drifloor underlay being
>soaked. Running the dehumidifier for a week with the thermostat up to
>70 took care of that.

Didn't the entire mess mold up?

>The huge water bill will searve as a reminderto CHECK AND CONFIRM next
>time - and to leave the laundry tub tap open instead of the drain hose
>when he leaves - - - -

Absolutely. Like unplugging the iron. It only takes once to end the
house. Does anyone iron nowadays? I do the occasional patch on pants
and jacket elbows, and seal mylar bags with mine, but that's it.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:24:12 -0800, Larry Jaques
<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

snip

>
>
>> Then there's my buddy who goes to texas every winter. He drainsthe
>>pipes and shuts off the water, and sets the thermostat to about 40F.
>>
>>He left in a bit of a rush this year and did not confirm the shutoff
>>valve had actually closed completely. Whenhe checked his water bill
>>online a month later he found he was charged for enough water to fill
>>his pool about 4 times - - -. I went over to check the house for him
>>and found the laundry room floor in the basement totally soaked and a
>>streem of water from his pipe drain hose flowing over the top of his
>>"catch the last drop" bucket and (thankfully) down the cellar drain.
>
>Ho boy. He was blinkin' lucky.

He's lucky he checked his water bill - - - -

>
>
>>Damage limitted to the carpet tiles and drifloor underlay being
>>soaked. Running the dehumidifier for a week with the thermostat up to
>>70 took care of that.
>
>Didn't the entire mess mold up?

Too cool to mold - and drycore and the carpet tile he used are mildew
resistant. A bit of mildew/mold on one piece of "termite spit"
shelving.

>
>
>>The huge water bill will searve as a reminderto CHECK AND CONFIRM next
>>time - and to leave the laundry tub tap open instead of the drain hose
>>when he leaves - - - -
>
>Absolutely. Like unplugging the iron. It only takes once to end the
>house. Does anyone iron nowadays? I do the occasional patch on pants
>and jacket elbows, and seal mylar bags with mine, but that's it.

Shrink the oratex fabric on the plane.

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:53:08 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

It was very common back in Michigan when I was growing up..if the
pipes froze...you would take or borrow a gasoline powered welder
(usually a SA-200 back then) and run leads to the water pipes and hit
it at about 20-40 amps and let it run until the water started flowing.

I dont see a problem with your solution. One assumes you have
metallic pipes?

Gunner

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Clare Snyder]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:09:02 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Just make sure whatever power supply you use is fully isolated - in
other words don't just connect a Variac and dial in the power
required. Also make sure whatever transformer you use is rated for
100% duty cycle at the current required (may require "active cooling"
- like a fan.

[Neon John]

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:53:08 -0800, et...@whidbey.com wrote:

> So now I need to wire up a transformer controlled by a thermostat
>to keep those in wall pipes warm. No more dripping taps!
> Anybody want to tell me why this is a bad idea?

In the presence of moisture, the copper contact points will corrode
and overheat. If your insulation is flammable, it could cause a fire.

One other thing. Use AC and not a battery charger. Unidirectional
current flow WILL cause accelerated corrosion.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

[Jim Wilkins]

"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
news:p2b99dl9he2405mb9...@4ax.com...

I found that the welding transformer I turned into a power supply
could output 1/2 of its max rated current @20% duty cycle continuously
without overheating. The hottest measurable area was the primary
winding and its temperature depended only on input (and output)
current, not voltage or load resistance.

The transformer core impedance (iron loss) was nearly constant up to
to 100V in and not excessive below 125V, but the Variac shouldn't be
connected to apply 140V to the transformer.

-jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:p72h6i$gl7$1...@dont-email.me...
> ..

> The transformer core impedance (iron loss) was nearly constant up to
> to 100V in and not excessive below 125V, but the Variac shouldn't be
> connected to apply 140V to the transformer.
>
> -jsw

That sentence doesn't read correctly. The ratio of primary current to
voltage held nearly constant at ~10mA/V up to 603mA @60V. Above there
the current rose increasingly faster than the voltage, reaching 2.3A
@120V and 3.0A @125V. At 140V in, the transformer no-load primary
current was 6.1 Amps.

In simple terms this means you should be careful about leaving a
welder short-circuited. I haven't measured any other machines to
determine how much abuse they can take.

-jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 00:16:53 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:24:12 -0800, Larry Jaques
><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>
>snip

>>>Damage limitted to the carpet tiles and drifloor underlay being
>>>soaked. Running the dehumidifier for a week with the thermostat up to
>>>70 took care of that.
>>
>>Didn't the entire mess mold up?
>
>Too cool to mold - and drycore and the carpet tile he used are mildew
>resistant. A bit of mildew/mold on one piece of "termite spit"
>shelving.

Again, very lucky.

>>>The huge water bill will searve as a reminderto CHECK AND CONFIRM next
>>>time - and to leave the laundry tub tap open instead of the drain hose
>>>when he leaves - - - -
>>
>>Absolutely. Like unplugging the iron. It only takes once to end the
>>house. Does anyone iron nowadays? I do the occasional patch on pants
>>and jacket elbows, and seal mylar bags with mine, but that's it.
>
>
> Shrink the oratex fabric on the plane.

Oh, so that's how the fabric airplane wings are fashioned. I've often
wondered.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message

news:ld3b9d1nfmpi3ttrq...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 00:16:53 -0500, Clare Snyder
> <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
> wrote:

>> ...

>> Shrink the oratex fabric on the plane.
>
> Oh, so that's how the fabric airplane wings are fashioned. I've
> often
> wondered.

Before metal construction took over full-sized planes and balsa models
were built about the same way.
http://hawkerrestorations.co.uk/

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:58:01 -0800, Larry Jaques

<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 00:16:53 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:24:12 -0800, Larry Jaques
>><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>>
>>snip
>
>>>>Damage limitted to the carpet tiles and drifloor underlay being
>>>>soaked. Running the dehumidifier for a week with the thermostat up to
>>>>70 took care of that.
>>>
>>>Didn't the entire mess mold up?
>>
>>Too cool to mold - and drycore and the carpet tile he used are mildew
>>resistant. A bit of mildew/mold on one piece of "termite spit"
>>shelving.
>
>Again, very lucky.
>
>
>>>>The huge water bill will searve as a reminderto CHECK AND CONFIRM next
>>>>time - and to leave the laundry tub tap open instead of the drain hose
>>>>when he leaves - - - -
>>>
>>>Absolutely. Like unplugging the iron. It only takes once to end the
>>>house. Does anyone iron nowadays? I do the occasional patch on pants
>>>and jacket elbows, and seal mylar bags with mine, but that's it.
>>
>>
>> Shrink the oratex fabric on the plane.
>
>Oh, so that's how the fabric airplane wings are fashioned. I've often
>wondered.

They used to be wrapped with linen or canvas... then doped...IE
varnished to make the fabric pretty stiff. They are doing that
today..with carbon fiber materials.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=carbon%20fiber%20wing%20construction&ved=0ahUKEwjS2cS-38bZAhXmj1QKHZfhBAsQsKwBCFooADAI&biw=1666&bih=871

[et...@whidbey.com]

Thanks to everyone who replied to my slightly hare-brained idea. I
also posted the same message to the basic electronics group. I didn't
cross post it because I never cross post anything. Anyway, a person
there who replied to my post caused me to remember about water valves
for solar systems and the like that are thermostatically controlled.
These valves are purely mechanical and turn on the flow when the
temperature drops too low. So if the power goes out they will still
work. See this link for one particular type:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pcs-of-Frost-protection-valve-DN20-G3-4-BSP-freeze-protection-valve-anti/351549227333?hash=item51d9f78145:g:9fsAAOSwo6lWHfWL
If the power goes out the well will stop pumping but the valves will
be at the lowest spot in the plumbing and so will drain the pipes
anyway. And they will also be above the sink drain, because the wall
stops are above the sink drain and so will be able to drain into the
sink plumbind.
Eric

[Clare Snyder]

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:58:01 -0800, Larry Jaques

<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 00:16:53 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:24:12 -0800, Larry Jaques
>><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>>
>>snip
>
>>>>Damage limitted to the carpet tiles and drifloor underlay being
>>>>soaked. Running the dehumidifier for a week with the thermostat up to
>>>>70 took care of that.
>>>
>>>Didn't the entire mess mold up?
>>
>>Too cool to mold - and drycore and the carpet tile he used are mildew
>>resistant. A bit of mildew/mold on one piece of "termite spit"
>>shelving.
>
>Again, very lucky.
>
>
>>>>The huge water bill will searve as a reminderto CHECK AND CONFIRM next
>>>>time - and to leave the laundry tub tap open instead of the drain hose
>>>>when he leaves - - - -
>>>
>>>Absolutely. Like unplugging the iron. It only takes once to end the
>>>house. Does anyone iron nowadays? I do the occasional patch on pants
>>>and jacket elbows, and seal mylar bags with mine, but that's it.
>>
>>
>> Shrink the oratex fabric on the plane.
>
>Oh, so that's how the fabric airplane wings are fashioned. I've often
>wondered.

Even the old type of classic fabric covering like Stitts etc uses
heat - but google oratex and get an education on the NEW way to fabric
cover a plane!!!. No dope, no sealer, no aluminum to sheild against
ultra-violet. No stink and no overspray - no explosion or fire danger
while installing.

About twice the price, and worth every nickle!!!

[Clare Snyder]

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:42:34 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The old unshrunk cotton fabric was replaced with polyesterf fabric -
again unshrunk - which was heated to do the initial shrink, then
shrunk further by applying nitrocellulous dope - terribly nasty and
flammable stuff - then usually covered with a butyrate dope for
durability and protection - with several coats of aluminum filled dope
to fill the weave and protect against ultraviolet. before the final
color coats.

Youcould make the fabric glass smooth.

The oratex is a single step covering - precolored - no extra coating
required - but does not give the mirrorlike show finish of a doped
fabric.

[Larry Jaques]

I'd seen the old kits with fabric and dope back in the '60s, but never
shrinking fabric, at least for kits.


>http://hawkerrestorations.co.uk/

Wow!

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:42:34 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Yeah, linen is the stuff I saw 50+ years ago.

>today..with carbon fiber materials.
>
>https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=carbon%20fiber%20wing%20construction&ved=0ahUKEwjS2cS-38bZAhXmj1QKHZfhBAsQsKwBCFooADAI&biw=1666&bih=871

Costly stuff. I've seen machines laying down carbon fiber tape, but
is sheet fabric available in carbon now?

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 16:04:27 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

> The old unshrunk cotton fabric was replaced with polyesterf fabric -
>again unshrunk - which was heated to do the initial shrink, then
>shrunk further by applying nitrocellulous dope - terribly nasty and

Oh, the dope shrunk it? I'll have to file that, too.
Friends' dads did larger models and doped them. Stee-inky.
"Get out of here, kids. This stuff will make you lightheaded."

>flammable stuff - then usually covered with a butyrate dope for
>durability and protection - with several coats of aluminum filled dope
>to fill the weave and protect against ultraviolet. before the final
>color coats.
>
>Youcould make the fabric glass smooth.
>
>The oratex is a single step covering - precolored - no extra coating
>required - but does not give the mirrorlike show finish of a doped
>fabric.

To me, dat's mo betta, 'cuz the less glare, the better.

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 15:59:15 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

Yeah, a whole lot less work, too, I'd imagine.

[rangerssuck]

On Sunday, February 25, 2018 at 11:24:18 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:


> Absolutely. Like unplugging the iron. It only takes once to end the
> house. Does anyone iron nowadays? I do the occasional patch on pants
> and jacket elbows, and seal mylar bags with mine, but that's it.

I have found that the fabric glues that are available (singer is one supplier that's available in the local supermarket) are way better than the iron-on adhesives. I'm wearing a pair of work pants now that I hemmed three years ago with glue, and they're holding up just fine after countless washings and much abuse.

[rangerssuck]

On Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 11:23:16 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:

> Funny how everyone forgets the resistance of the multimeter leads.
> 0.7 ohms is not out of the ordinary. Also your typical Harbor Fright
> free multitester is only about 50% accurate under 10 ohms.

And that is why higher-grade meters (like my Fluke 8840As) have 4-wire resistance measurements. Google Kelvin Connection for an explanation. How it works is one pair of leads provides a current through the item under test while the other pair measures the voltage across the item. The resistance of the supply leads is inconsequential as it is a constant current supply, and the resistance of the measurement leads is inconsequential as there is virtually zero current through them.

[Clare Snyder]

Of course "lab grade" resistance testers accurate to less then 1% at
one ohm ARE out there - but the average guy asking questions on this
list has a hard time figuring out where to plug in the 2 wires on his
harbour frieght meter, and wouldn't even own THAT if it wasn't a
freebie.

[Clare Snyder]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 22:01:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
snippp

>>
>>Youcould make the fabric glass smooth.
>>
>>The oratex is a single step covering - precolored - no extra coating
>>required - but does not give the mirrorlike show finish of a doped
>>fabric.
>
>To me, dat's mo betta, 'cuz the less glare, the better.

But your "hangar queen " HAS to glow!!!!

On a bush plane as long as it keeps the wind and blackflies out,
you're gold!

[David Lesher]

Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> writes:


>The worst I ever saw was an overhead pipe in a winter garage.

Try AT&T: who nearly lost the major CO/POP in Akron to same: <https://youtu.be/tgdlxIBPfkQ>


--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2018 13:09:34 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

>On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 22:01:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>snippp
>>>
>>>Youcould make the fabric glass smooth.
>>>
>>>The oratex is a single step covering - precolored - no extra coating
>>>required - but does not give the mirrorlike show finish of a doped
>>>fabric.
>>
>>To me, dat's mo betta, 'cuz the less glare, the better.
>
>
> But your "hangar queen " HAS to glow!!!!

So wax your ego, already. <g>

>On a bush plane as long as it keeps the wind and blackflies out,
>you're gold!

Perzactly. Well, that and land on a dime and take off on a quarter.
I'd love to get my hands on a well prepped SuperCub with the B17esque
tires and flexi landing gear, etc. But I'd hate to traverse any long
distances at a cruise speed of 60mph.

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 18:29:21 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
<wb8...@panix.com> wrote:

>Larry Jaques <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> writes:
>
>
>>The worst I ever saw was an overhead pipe in a winter garage.
>
>
>Try AT&T: who nearly lost the major CO/POP in Akron to same: <https://youtu.be/tgdlxIBPfkQ>

You win. ;)

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 02 Mar 2018 22:08:08 -0800, Larry Jaques

<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 02 Mar 2018 13:09:34 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 22:01:53 -0800, Larry Jaques
>><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>>snippp
>>>>
>>>>Youcould make the fabric glass smooth.
>>>>
>>>>The oratex is a single step covering - precolored - no extra coating
>>>>required - but does not give the mirrorlike show finish of a doped
>>>>fabric.
>>>
>>>To me, dat's mo betta, 'cuz the less glare, the better.
>>
>>
>> But your "hangar queen " HAS to glow!!!!
>
>So wax your ego, already. <g>
>
>
>>On a bush plane as long as it keeps the wind and blackflies out,
>>you're gold!
>
>Perzactly. Well, that and land on a dime and take off on a quarter.
>I'd love to get my hands on a well prepped SuperCub with the B17esque
>tires and flexi landing gear, etc. But I'd hate to traverse any long
>distances at a cruise speed of 60mph.

Check out the Pegazair 100.
stall speed under 30, cruise over 100 knots. Take off and land in the
same football field without turning around. No such thing as a
crosswind landing - cross runway solves that problem!!

I'm into year 17 building - hopefully we will finish it this summer.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Clare Snyder" <cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:3ugk9dd7j84ogpkmb...@4ax.com...
..............

> Check out the Pegazair 100.
> stall speed under 30, cruise over 100 knots. Take off and land in
> the
> same football field without turning around. No such thing as a
> crosswind landing - cross runway solves that problem!!
>
> I'm into year 17 building - hopefully we will finish it this summer.

It's interesting that WW1-level aircraft performance is still
acceptable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Aircraft_Factory_S.E.5

" James McCudden, an ace pilot, was famous for his prolific
fine-tuning of his aircraft in order to produce improved performance
from it; McCudden was able to increase the top speed by 9 mph and to
raise the service ceiling from the standard 17,000 ft to 20,000 ft.
His adaptions included replacing the standard pistons with high
compression versions, shortening the exhaust (saving weight and
improving exhaust scavenging), and changes to mixture, ignition and
other engine settings as well as fitting a scavenged propeller spinner
(which he himself credited as gaining 3 mph alone) ."

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7847230-flying-fury

-jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 01:44:32 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

I've always enjoyed that little chat between the pilot and tower:
<click>"Wow, that's a wide runway, but it's so =short=!"
<click>"Turn 90, pilot."

30? Have you seen the heavily-modded planes in the Valdez STOL
FlyIns? Frank Knapp's beauty flies unimaginably short.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Jwde4EAVw
10'4" landing? That may be a tad less than 30mph and a football
field.

>I'm into year 17 building - hopefully we will finish it this summer.

Do you have flaperons and slats?
I hope you've been flying others in the interim. As a USAF brat, I
probably would have been an aircraft mechanic if I hadn't graduated
from high school cum laude into alcoholism, so autos it was. Never got
a license after sobering up, either. <sigh>

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message

news:gqll9d9r7ug6fq626...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 01:44:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
> <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
> 30? Have you seen the heavily-modded planes in the Valdez STOL
> FlyIns? Frank Knapp's beauty flies unimaginably short.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Jwde4EAVw
> 10'4" landing? That may be a tad less than 30mph and a football
> field.

After half a dozen more-or-less crashes I timed the hang glider
landing flare just right and made a zero-length standup landing atop a
boulder. Then I switched to the safer, saner sport of dirt biking.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 01:44:32 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

> Check out the Pegazair 100.

So, they do have slats, and I could see the massive flaps at the back.
What engine? (Was it your Subaru we discussed a short while back?)

Now I'll finish watching this review at Oshkosh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkkLFiT1Dw0&list=PLaLgn7ov9PruN80bqzM0eQ40ssOAc7INV&index=3

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 10:27:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 01:44:32 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
>wrote:
>
>> Check out the Pegazair 100.
>
>So, they do have slats, and I could see the massive flaps at the back.
>What engine? (Was it your Subaru we discussed a short while back?)

We have a Corvair set up to go in. It has automatic leading edge slats
and fullspan flapperons - on 150 square feet of wing.

The "hot" ones are running 235s and 320s

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 09:32:39 -0800, Larry Jaques

watch for the "patriot" Pegazair - a picture in this article
towards the end:
http://www.kitplanes.com/issues/32_4/builder_spotlight/STOL-Mods-How-Short-Can-You-Go_21223-1.html

See:
http://guclip.com/watch?v=d3EtM3hDbENDN1E

See the Patriot get off the ground at .00
;44 in this one, and the landing at4:27

http://guclip.com/watch?v=SW84QUxJRlo4YWs

[Gunner Asch]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:57:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>>>wondered.
>>
>>
>>They used to be wrapped with linen or canvas... then doped...IE
>>varnished to make the fabric pretty stiff. They are doing that
>
>Yeah, linen is the stuff I saw 50+ years ago.
>
>
>>today..with carbon fiber materials.
>>
>>https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=carbon%20fiber%20wing%20construction&ved=0ahUKEwjS2cS-38bZAhXmj1QKHZfhBAsQsKwBCFooADAI&biw=1666&bih=871
>
>Costly stuff. I've seen machines laying down carbon fiber tape, but
>is sheet fabric available in carbon now?

All over the place.

http://www.protechcomposites.com/carbon-fiber-fabrics/

https://www.fibreglast.com/category/Carbon_Fiber

https://www.google.com/search?q=sheet+carbon+fiber+fabric&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

[Larry Jaques]

Impressive. Have you seen the video of the batwing suits? I watched
one where a dozen or more went down the mountain paralleling the trail
they climbed up. There was a bright splotch halfway down where one
guy evidently got a little too close to the boulders. Can't find it
on YT right now. <shudder>

The lone flight of my handbuilt (bamboo carpet-pole + sheet) hang
glider got me off the ground and horizontal before folding and
dropping me harmlessly on the grass.

I raced my friend on their Combat Wombats around a dirt course in my
'62 Corvair convertible. And after trying my other friend's 400 Husky
just once, I swore off racing dirt. I was more at home on a Hodaka,
thankyouverymuch. That Husky was nicknamed "The Trencher" for good
reason, and it had a toggle switch 1/8-turn throttle which scared the
bejesus out of me. I prefer 70% dirt/30% air, not 5/95%, thanks.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 15:01:20 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 10:27:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 01:44:32 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Check out the Pegazair 100.
>>
>>So, they do have slats, and I could see the massive flaps at the back.
>>What engine? (Was it your Subaru we discussed a short while back?)
>
>We have a Corvair set up to go in. It has automatic leading edge slats
>and fullspan flapperons - on 150 square feet of wing.

That might power it OK. VBG

> The "hot" ones are running 235s and 320s

Lycoming$ are nice, I hear.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 15:13:37 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

Love the Helium Fill Port decal.
Auto-slat-deploy is cool.

Well, I used to love them. Egad, the cost!
http://www.airframesalaska.com/Alaskan-Bushwheels-s/1917.htm

> See:
>http://guclip.com/watch?v=d3EtM3hDbENDN1E
>
>See the Patriot get off the ground at .00
>;44 in this one, and the landing at4:27
>
>http://guclip.com/watch?v=SW84QUxJRlo4YWs

Resource Limit Is Reached
The website is temporarily unable to service your request as it
exceeded resource limit. Please try again later.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 15:16:37 -0800, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 01 Mar 2018 21:57:28 -0800, Larry Jaques
><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>
>>>>wondered.
>>>
>>>
>>>They used to be wrapped with linen or canvas... then doped...IE
>>>varnished to make the fabric pretty stiff. They are doing that
>>
>>Yeah, linen is the stuff I saw 50+ years ago.
>>
>>
>>>today..with carbon fiber materials.
>>>
>>>https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=carbon%20fiber%20wing%20construction&ved=0ahUKEwjS2cS-38bZAhXmj1QKHZfhBAsQsKwBCFooADAI&biw=1666&bih=871
>>
>>Costly stuff. I've seen machines laying down carbon fiber tape, but
>>is sheet fabric available in carbon now?
>
>
>All over the place.
>
>http://www.protechcomposites.com/carbon-fiber-fabrics/
>
>https://www.fibreglast.com/category/Carbon_Fiber
>
>https://www.google.com/search?q=sheet+carbon+fiber+fabric&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Thanks.

[Clare Snyder]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 21:40:35 -0800, Larry Jaques

<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 15:01:20 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 10:27:38 -0800, Larry Jaques
>><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 01:44:32 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Check out the Pegazair 100.
>>>
>>>So, they do have slats, and I could see the massive flaps at the back.
>>>What engine? (Was it your Subaru we discussed a short while back?)
>>
>>We have a Corvair set up to go in. It has automatic leading edge slats
>>and fullspan flapperons - on 150 square feet of wing.
>
>That might power it OK. VBG

90 HP at 3000 RPM at 72F and 1055 ft ASL - basically the same output
as a 100HP rated O200

>
>
>
>> The "hot" ones are running 235s and 320s
>
>Lycoming$ are nice, I hear.

You can completely "zero time" a CorvAir for the cost of ONE jug on a
Lyco$auru$

[Clare Snyder]

On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 21:47:05 -0800, Larry Jaques
<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>take a look at :
http://pegazair.on-the-net.ca/Will%20Fox/High%20Flight.htm

My project is also on the pegazair.on-the-net.ca site.

The website is a bit out of date.

Also see:
http://pegazair-builders.info/

[Larry Jaques]

On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 10:03:02 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 21:47:05 -0800, Larry Jaques
><lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:
>
>>take a look at :
>http://pegazair.on-the-net.ca/Will%20Fox/High%20Flight.htm

I've always had the same problem with masks causing fogging of my
eyeglasses, and learned early on to tighten the top straps 2x that of
the lowers to prevent it.

Those air controllers likely all had their heads at 45-degree angles
looking at the altitude and airspeeds during his flight. Love to have
a picture from the tower right about then. LOL

The photos he took felt familiar as I read the blurb about each. I've
been both in Los Alamos and up the Sandia Peak aerial tramway. The
tram's a hoot. It's 2-80' off the ground for the first let, then it
goes over the first tower and heads off over a 1,500' sheer cliff. All
the women in the car gasped and moved to the middle of the car while I
got the best view right at the window, looking down.

> My project is also on the pegazair.on-the-net.ca site.

Look at all the Cleco porcupines!

>The website is a bit out of date.
>
>Also see:
>http://pegazair-builders.info/

Oh, jeeze. Was anything salvageable from Will's crash? Maybe the
seats and instrument cluster? Speaking of which, that's a busy dash
panel.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 07 Mar 2018 09:56:22 -0500, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>
wrote:

>>

>>Lycoming$ are nice, I hear.
>
>
> You can completely "zero time" a CorvAir for the cost of ONE jug on a
>Lyco$auru$

A neighbor of one of my clients is moving to Aridzona. He and is
brother are Corvair engine rebuilders with tons and tons of spare
parts and tooling.

Want me to get contact info for them? Ill see em this coming week.

Gunner