The Left is Marching the Nation Toward Civil War

[raykeller]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3577546/posts
The Left is Marching the Nation Toward Civil War
US Defense Watch ^ | August 15, 2017 | Ray Starmann


I believe it is no longer hyperbole to say the United States may very well
be on the road to a Second Civil War. This time it won't be North vs. South,
but Left vs. Right, Marxism vs. American Nationalism, Lunacy vs. Sanity,
Tyranny vs. Liberty.

The Left has been on a collision course with reality since 1968, when the
party began to abandon its own Dixiecrats, taking a sharp turn against the
Vietnam War, against American values; embracing socialism and eventually
metamorphosizing into the lunatic Orwellian beast it is today. Name a crazy
position and the left supports it. Name an anti-American political platform
and the left supports it. Name a position that the left despises and their
violence knows no bounds.

The left's Marxist intolerance and premeditated violence for the last year
and a half has been directed towards the supporters of first candidate Trump
and now the President. There have been hundreds and hundreds of left-wing
assaults against Trump supporters of all races, genders and creeds.

Why were these attacks committed; for the sole reason that the left
tolerates no one who disagrees with their Eurocrap Orwellian Great Leap
Backward for America.

The violence aimed at Trump supporters at rallies shifted into larger melees
across the nation, where thousands of ant-like Antifa (Anti-Fascist)
anarchists, supported by Lucifer 6 Actual, aka George Soros and motivated by
lies spread on CNN and MSDNC, have vandalized buildings, burned cars, beat
up citizens, fought with the police and terrorized anyone who dares to
disagree with them.

At Berkeley, the Antifa destroyed property and caused millions of dollars
worth of damage because they were unhappy that the right wing blogger Milo
Yiannopoulos was going to speak there.

In Berkeley, the police force, ordered to stand down by the mayor, simply
watched the violence ensue.

The left claims to be tolerant, and so sensitive to everyone's feelings and
likes to throw around big words like diversity and inclusion, but in
actuality, they are tyrants who would have found a home in Nazi Germany or
the Soviet Union.

Anyone the left disagrees with must be silenced and usually by force. Anyone
the left feels has aggrieved them, must be silenced and usually by force.
Any law the left dislikes must be ignored. Any sentence to the US
constitution the left despises must be twisted. Any history the left hates
must be erased and disappeared permanently from the minds, museums and books
of America.

The left has been at war with the Confederacy for the apparent reason that
the South still had the institution of slavery. What really bothers the left
is that Southern secession was a libertarian revolt against Big Brother.
Small government is Kryptonite to the left.

Therefore, every statue, every monument, every flag that honors the brave
men who fought for the greatest army the US has ever fielded, must be
eradicated from all history, forever, and made to disappear into the night
like a train car of dissidents on the way to Siberia.

Statues of Robert E. Lee, the most beloved general in American history are
being pulled down like large stone edifices of the Romanian butcher,
Ceausescu. Stonewall, Jeff Davis, good ole J.E.B. Stuart and Johnny Reb
himself must be erased from the nation's past by the order of America's
modern day Pol Pot re-educators.

In Charlottesville, Virginia, on Saturday, the left's army of anti-Fascist
Fascists collided head on with the most extreme element of the right, the
KKK and a sundry assortment of Neo-Nazis and white supremacists. James
Fields, a 20 year old madman and self-proclaimed white supremacist drove his
car into a left wing crowd, killing three people and injuring others.

What happened in Charlottesville is appalling and only a maniac would
condone what happened or associate themselves with the KKK and the
Neo-Nazis.

But, one must ask what the Antifa was doing there dressed in black with
baseball bats? No doubt they were planning on assaulting the peaceful, pro
Robert E. Lee protesters who were in the streets of Charlottesville as well.

As in Berkeley, the police in Charlottesville stood down and watched the
deaths from the sidelines like cowardly spectators.

Yesterday, the left tore down a CSA monument in Durham, and once again the
police stood by and let the vandalism take place. The police in America are
becoming no more useful than the police during the last days of the USSR.

Think the left is just going to stop with Lee and Davis, think again.

Today, a group of left wing wackos gathered in front of the National History
Museum in New York, demanding that a statue of Teddy Roosevelt be taken down
on the grounds that TR was a racist.

Of course he was, he was a white man. All white men are racists, rapists and
evil according to the left, even though the white man and European
civilization took the world out of the Dark Age and into the Renaissance,
the Enlightenment, the Reformation and the American Revolution, while giving
the planet music, art, the sciences and the rights of man in the process.
Most importantly, as civilization advanced, those of all colors, creeds and
genders eventually enjoyed the wealth and freedom that was a result of
European, aka Western Civilization.

The Muslims the left and feminists embrace so fervently have given the world
nothing but sand, oil and death.

So, what happens next?

Sadly, there will be more violence, more vandalism and more bloodshed on
both sides. There will be more confrontations for one reason and one reason
only, the left wants it.

The left wants a Civil War. They very well may get it.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mr. B1ack]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 00:15:55 -0700, "raykeller"
<whiney_will_have_his_nose_in_my_ass_in_3_2_1@leftards_are_loosers.com>
wrote:

>
>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3577546/posts
>The Left is Marching the Nation Toward Civil War
>US Defense Watch ^ | August 15, 2017 | Ray Starmann

Our left works by means of continual pressure and
intimidation augmented by a near-total control of the
primary information sources. It has been a very
effective strategy - and one the center/right has been
lazy about, ney negligent, in counteracting over many
decades.

As such, do not expect any sort of "armed insurrection"
from the left - which makes any use of force against them
seem barbaric, over-the-top, inexcusable. Won't seem
"sporting". You'll only see arms at the end, when they
take control of the police and military.

So I don't SEE any "civil war" with the left. Indeed, if
things continue the way they are, I expect the leftists
to WIN and turn the USA into some kind of latter day
communist regime sporting every excess and flaw
we've seen in other communist regimes.

And all non-commies will COMPLY. They won't do a
damned thing to STOP it and, time comes, they WILL
step into line like sheep to the slaughter. This is the
future I see, based on trends over the past 25 years
or so. What's the old thing about nice guys finishing
last ... ?

Of course, eventually, the commie regime will crash
and burn. Marxism/authoritarian-socialism don't work.
Their promises are lies, their economics defective.
But that could take a long miserable time and the
crash will be a huge disaster in an of itself.

So, unless you notice some huge zealous anti-commie
push in the works ... THAT is our future - because the
not-left LET it happen and have BEEN letting it happen
since the mid 60s.

[Gunner Asch]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3577948/posts
Big Time Vanity
http://djstex ^ | 2017 | Djstex

Posted on 8/16/2017, 8:05:27 PM by djstex

Big Time Vanity, Feel Free to Pass it on to Snowflakes!

Please Boycott and do NOT use the $1.00, $20.00, $50.00, & $100.00
bills, as they depict slave owners on them. Please send them to me,
and I will see to it that they are disposed of properly. Thank you
very much. I can give you my address upon request!

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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[Winston Smith]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 04:58:00 -0700, FAKE Gunner Asch
<gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:

>http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/3577948/posts

>Please Boycott and do NOT use the $1.00, $20.00, $50.00, & $100.00
>bills, as they depict slave owners on them. Please send them to me,
>and I will see to it that they are disposed of properly. Thank you
>very much. I can give you my address upon request!

That's humor but it would fit right in with the banker's war on cash.
Modi (sp?) in India recently recalled everything bigger than what
amounts to their $5 bill.

With no bills bigger than $10 you have to carry a stack of currency
just to do a monthly grocery shopping and with nothing smaller than
the $5 bill you will be loaded with lots of coins. Makes electronic
money almost look attractive.

[Mr. B1ack]

They want EVERY transaction to be electronic so
a super-detailed profile of your life, activites and
such can be compiled - to be used against you
at some future time.

We need something like printed BitCoins, an
alternative currency.

[!Jones]

x-no-idiots: yes

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 00:15:55 -0700, in talk.politics.guns "raykeller"
<whiney_will_have_his_nose_in_my_ass_in_3_2_1@leftards_are_loosers.com>
wrote:

>I believe it is no longer hyperbole to say the United States may very well
>be on the road to a Second Civil War. This time it won't be North vs. South,
>but Left vs. Right, Marxism vs. American Nationalism, Lunacy vs. Sanity,
>Tyranny vs. Liberty.

We may well be on the road to social disintegration; however, a civil
war won't happen.

First of all, we're *way* too fat and comfortable for that. Nobody
who has actually seen a war takes the thought of these K-mart
commandos closing to a fight seriously. I mean, how long did they
last after Finicum bled out in the snow? ("OH! MURDER! MURDER!!!")
Well, if you want a war, better get used to it!

Second, there are no regional divisions. Liberals and alt-right are
pretty homogeneous and there's no way to tell one from the other
besides asking 'em. What are you gonna do? ... just start shooting
everybody?

Third, there really aren't that many people who really give a good
rat's ass. OK, the people *you* hang with probably wear cammies and
play war on the weekends, but they're comparatively rare.

Jones

[rbowman]

On 08/17/2017 07:00 PM, !Jones wrote:
> We may well be on the road to social disintegration; however, a civil
> war won't happen.

No, but the equivalent of The Troubles might. There never were that many
active IRA members but there were a lot of IRA supporters. The left
already has the supporters lined up. However their over the top acts are
pissing enough people off to make them alt-right supporters.

[Mr. B1ack]

I've been trying to explain this to them ... but some boys
are just *enthusiastic* ........

It's the reason Marx railed against the bourgeoise - the
vested middle class. By having a stake, having an
investment, the bourgeoise are a strong anti-revolutionary
influence. They RELY on the system, LIKE its perks.
The USA still has one of the biggest middle-classes in
the world. It'd be *very* hard to recruit a lot of revolutionaries,
for any side of the cause, here.

The chink in all that is that it really doesn't take THAT
many hot-heads to get something started, something
that will just drive over the top of the bourgeoise. We
have seen this in respect to Islamic jihadism and it's
at least possible we could see it here. Those who are
literally active in revolutions rarely exceed 10% of the
population. The rest just complain and wait to see
who wins so they can say "We ALWAYS loved you !".

[rbowman]

On 08/17/2017 08:46 PM, Mr. B1ack wrote:
> It's the reason Marx railed against the bourgeoise - the
> vested middle class. By having a stake, having an
> investment, the bourgeoise are a strong anti-revolutionary
> influence. They RELY on the system, LIKE its perks.
> The USA still has one of the biggest middle-classes in
> the world. It'd be *very* hard to recruit a lot of revolutionaries,
> for any side of the cause, here.

Ah, but when the system fails to deliver the perks on time the
bourgeoisie get testy. Marx had little use for the lumpenproletariat
either; as long as they have beer and potatoes they are happy. You need
a cadre waiting in the wings for events to ripen.

[!Jones]

x-no-idiots: yes

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 20:37:42 -0600, in talk.politics.guns rbowman
<bow...@montana.com> wrote:

>No, but the equivalent of The Troubles might. There never were that many
>active IRA members but there were a lot of IRA supporters. The left
>already has the supporters lined up. However their over the top acts are
>pissing enough people off to make them alt-right supporters.

Most people have a political position; however, beyond posting a
scathing "tweet" or two, they're not going to start blowing up federal
buildings. The issues pretty much appeal to people's emotions; nobody
had really ever even thought about the statues until recently... but,
are you really ready to run out and die to protect (or take down) a
statue?

The militias look... uuuh... menacing, I suppose (they'd look more
impressive if most of them weren't so fat); however, when a serious
fight comes along, they have always run for the woodwork.

"To expect [...] the same service from undisciplined militia, as from
veteran soldiers, is to expect what never did and perhaps never will
happen [...] To place any dependence upon militia, is, assuredly,
resting upon a broken staff. Men just dragged from the tender scenes
of domestic life, unaccustomed to the din of arms, totally
unacquainted with any kind of military skill, which being followed by
a want of confidence in themselves when opposed to troops regularly
trained, disciplined, and appointed, superior in knowledge, and
superior in arms, makes them timid and ready to fly from their own
shadows."
George Washington, 1776

37 years later, at Bladensburd, MD, a nominal force of 7,000 US
militia fled before an approaching, much smaller, British force
without even firing a shot or even taking time to burn the bridge.
Shortly after that, congress authorized a standing army.

Now, these people can do a great deal of damage; see: Timmy McVeigh;
however, the idea that people will suddenly grab their guns, come
boiling out of their homes to stand shoulder to shoulder on the green
in a defensive ring around a statue, and effectively fight regular
troops is a pure fantasy.

Jones

[!Jones]

x-no-idiots: yes

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:46:35 -0400, in talk.politics.guns Mr. B1ack
<now...@nada.net> wrote:

> I've been trying to explain this to them ... but some boys
> are just *enthusiastic* ........
>
> It's the reason Marx railed against the bourgeoise - the
> vested middle class. By having a stake, having an
> investment, the bourgeoise are a strong anti-revolutionary
> influence. They RELY on the system, LIKE its perks.
> The USA still has one of the biggest middle-classes in
> the world. It'd be *very* hard to recruit a lot of revolutionaries,
> for any side of the cause, here.
>
> The chink in all that is that it really doesn't take THAT
> many hot-heads to get something started, something
> that will just drive over the top of the bourgeoise. We
> have seen this in respect to Islamic jihadism and it's
> at least possible we could see it here. Those who are
> literally active in revolutions rarely exceed 10% of the
> population. The rest just complain and wait to see
> who wins so they can say "We ALWAYS loved you !".

I tend to agree; however, I don't think it would happen in the US *at
this time*.

I have always believed that "revolutionaries" (of either side of the
philosophical spectrum) in the US are essentially just hobbyists.
They buy the latest tactical gear and dress up... make war faces in
the mirror, etc. The problem is that they still have a vested
interest in the social structure they propose to fight. Today, it's
the right; however, I can remember "The Last Poets" playing at full
volume in '69. (Whether or not they were "poets" is debatable; I was
certainly hoping they'd be the last of the genre!)

Some of us really *believed* that the people would rise up and wrest
control... twenty-somethings are like that quite often. I suppose
that we were similarly polarized in '69 and no civil war developed. I
mean, Alex Jones has nothing on the Black Panthers when it comes to
heated rhetoric.

Jones

[Winston Smith]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 17:22:59 -0400, Mr. B1ack wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 10:23:49 -0700, Winston Smith wrote:

>>That's humor but it would fit right in with the banker's war on cash.
>>Modi (sp?) in India recently recalled everything bigger than what
>>amounts to their $5 bill.
>>With no bills bigger than $10 you have to carry a stack of currency
>>just to do a monthly grocery shopping and with nothing smaller than
>>the $5 bill you will be loaded with lots of coins. Makes electronic
>>money almost look attractive.
>
> They want EVERY transaction to be electronic so
> a super-detailed profile of your life, activites and
> such can be compiled - to be used against you
> at some future time.

Indeed. It's even a double win for the miners. First they get their
advertising payback which is all they wanted when they started. Now
government is paying them to do mass collection and sorting rather
than try to do it themselves. It even gets government off the hook for
privacy invasion. When the courts ruled the feds can't grab and retain
all phone call meta-data, they just started paying the phone companies
to do it and archive it for them. WE are paying the cost of being
spied on - TO corporations.


"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's
laws"
— Whether or not Rothschild actually said that, it certainly
describes international banking.

> We need something like printed BitCoins, an
> alternative currency.

I read a news story about the recent strong jump in the value of
BitCoin and whether or not it is worth investing in. Two statements
caught my attention. First was that major investment houses like
Fidelity are doing just that.

The second was a link to a thing called "BitCoin Cash". My surfing
time ran out before I found out if that's to be a substitute for small
change transactions without the back story of investment potential.

[!Jones]

x-no-idiots: yes

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 12:08:03 -0700, in talk.politics.guns Winston
Smith <inv...@butterfly.net> wrote:

>I read a news story about the recent strong jump in the value of
>BitCoin and whether or not it is worth investing in. Two statements
>caught my attention. First was that major investment houses like
>Fidelity are doing just that.
>
>The second was a link to a thing called "BitCoin Cash". My surfing
>time ran out before I found out if that's to be a substitute for small
>change transactions without the back story of investment potential.

There is something about "bitcoin" that causes me deep discomfort.
Maybe I just need to get over it and enter the 21st century... dunno.
I buy gold... shiny and heavy in my hand (my *hand*, I tell you, not
me fucking computer!)

I dunno, man. I lack any advice here. I just think that our digital
system is highly vulnerable... but WTF do I know?

I'd invest in:

Gold: small denomination, known mint coin.

Whisky: case quantity of pint bottles from a good distiller.

hydrocodone: generic 10mg tabs in unopened bottles.

and guns, of course... and ammunition (they're of scant use without
any.) Go as generic as you can. I buy low-end combat tupperware and
K-mart bullets.

Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
Carolina before they pick up federal tax.

I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.

Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!

[Mr. B1ack]

"BitCoins" are, of course, all-electronic. I was thinking
of a substitute for small change, physical tokens, that
could be exchanged for BitCoins or the local money at
some later date if you wanted ... or just passed along
like a $20 bill. Counterfeiting WOULD be a major
challenge though ...

[Mr. B1ack]

Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
global clusterfuck it may be zero.

Liquor/drugs/tampons/TP/cigs ... life's little luxuries ...
would be worth a lot after a huge global depression.
Raw FOOD too - dried beans/wheat-flour/corn/rice.
Thing is they use up a lot of space.

Guns have fair value ... but they're also ubiquitous.
In case of a huge dust-up, just take 'em off the dead
bodies ......

In a 'disaster', the intangible tech-dependent nature
of BitCoins will be their downfall.

There's no real way to be "fully prepared" to weather
an international disaster - except perhaps at the very
crudest level of lice-infested survival. Do NOT expect
any rapid return to 'normality' - global commerce/finance/
manufacturing has become HUGELY interdependent
at this point.

It's a hyper-complex, delicately-balanced web that's
evolved over a very long period. It's very efficient - and
very vulnerable. It ALMOST collapsed in 2008 and there
wasn't even a war on, no smouldering cities filled with
millions of charred skeletons and tens of millions of
thinner-looking skeletons on the outskirts... those
who starved to death after the disaster.

How much food can you store - and protect ? How
long before you can grow new food ? Know how ?
Most don't. Sure as hell ain't gonna be delivered to
yer local market anymore. YOU grow it, or kill for
it - or starve.

If it all falls down goes boom ... fifty years or so to
re-evolve a new system ? Maybe more ? Maybe
1000 years ? Hard to say. The fall of Rome gives
us a preview of what happens when a large system
implodes. There is was mostly just europe, but
today ... everywhere. Only the tribal goatherds
are safe.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
news:fniepcp16kmdschdm...@4ax.com...

>> - Whether or not Rothschild actually said that, it certainly

>>describes international banking.
>>
>>> We need something like printed BitCoins, an
>>> alternative currency.
>>
>>I read a news story about the recent strong jump in the value of
>>BitCoin and whether or not it is worth investing in. Two statements
>>caught my attention. First was that major investment houses like
>>Fidelity are doing just that.
>>
>>The second was a link to a thing called "BitCoin Cash". My surfing
>>time ran out before I found out if that's to be a substitute for
>>small
>>change transactions without the back story of investment potential.
>
> "BitCoins" are, of course, all-electronic. I was thinking
> of a substitute for small change, physical tokens, that
> could be exchanged for BitCoins or the local money at
> some later date if you wanted ... or just passed along
> like a $20 bill. Counterfeiting WOULD be a major
> challenge though ...
>

Lithium batteries, another desirable potential trading item, have been
counterfeited. The fakes have the correct easily tested voltage and
weight (from added mineral powder) but much lower capacity.
http://lightsngear.com/beware-fake-ultrafire-18650-batteries/

[Jim Wilkins]

"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message

news:d1jepct9s382d9ntg...@4ax.com...
> ...

> If it all falls down goes boom ... fifty years or so to
> re-evolve a new system ? Maybe more ? Maybe
> 1000 years ? Hard to say. The fall of Rome gives
> us a preview of what happens when a large system
> implodes. There is was mostly just europe, but
> today ... everywhere. Only the tribal goatherds
> are safe.

A pandemic was a significant cause of the Dark Ages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian
along with the collapse of trade after Rome stopped suppressing
pirates and brigands, who are the reason most people submit to rule by
empires.

European civilization began to recover shortly after the Plague ended.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

[!Jones]

x-no-idiots: yes

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, in talk.politics.guns Mr. B1ack
<now...@nada.net> wrote:

> There's no real way to be "fully prepared" to weather
> an international disaster

Dunno, dude... somebody brought up "bitcoin". How is *any* media of
exchange worth anymore than people think it is? Narcotics are
probably the only sure bet... particularly so if the usual sources are
interrupted.

Just some thoughts. If an astroid strikes, it probably doesn't
matter; if I'm stoned enough, I won't care.

Jones

[Just Wondering]

On 8/18/2017 6:52 PM, !Jones wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 Mr. B1ack wrote:
>
>> There's no real way to be "fully prepared" to weather
>> an international disaster
>
> Dunno, dude... somebody brought up "bitcoin". How is
> *any* media of exchange worth anymore than people think
> it is? Narcotics are probably the only sure bet...
> particularly so if the usual sources are interrupted.
>

When the part of preparedness is having a substitute for cash,
nothing is a sure bet. People could steal your narcotics, or
any other goods, as easily as they can now steal your cash.
Ammunition in the most common cartridges might be a better bet,
if only because of its greater weight it's a whole lot harder
to steal a thousand dollars worth of ammo than a thousand dollars
worth of drugs. Plus, if worst came to worst, that ammo would
come in a lot handier for your personal protection than would
a stash of coke.

[Winston Smith]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 19:08:06 -0600, Just Wondering wrote:

>Ammunition in the most common cartridges might be a better bet,
>if only because of its greater weight it's a whole lot harder
>to steal a thousand dollars worth of ammo than a thousand dollars
>worth of drugs. Plus, if worst came to worst, that ammo would
>come in a lot handier for your personal protection than would
>a stash of coke.

Walk into any gun store. The entire staff is carrying as well as most
of the customers. Makes a would be robber think about quietly walking
out and hitting the Quickie-Mart.

[Scout]

"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message

news:fniepcp16kmdschdm...@4ax.com...

>> - Whether or not Rothschild actually said that, it certainly

>>describes international banking.
>>
>>> We need something like printed BitCoins, an
>>> alternative currency.
>>
>>I read a news story about the recent strong jump in the value of
>>BitCoin and whether or not it is worth investing in. Two statements
>>caught my attention. First was that major investment houses like
>>Fidelity are doing just that.
>>
>>The second was a link to a thing called "BitCoin Cash". My surfing
>>time ran out before I found out if that's to be a substitute for small
>>change transactions without the back story of investment potential.
>
> "BitCoins" are, of course, all-electronic. I was thinking
> of a substitute for small change, physical tokens, that
> could be exchanged for BitCoins or the local money at
> some later date if you wanted ... or just passed along
> like a $20 bill. Counterfeiting WOULD be a major
> challenge though ...

Simply carry your bit coins in your wallet stored on a flash drive and pay
as you would with cash in your wallet.

[Mr. B1ack]

That's merely annoying. Look up the problem with "fake bolts",
you know, those things that hold everything together, like
bridges and airplanes and helicopters and such. Bolts have
strength ratings. Of course anybody with facilities can make
bolts and stamp anything they please on them. They are.
Can't tell the difference without actual physical testing.

Counterfeit products ARE a problem. Cash money is so
complex and full of tricks just to thrwart (most) of the
would-be counterfeiters. A "bitcoin bill" would have to be
similarly complex. It's a problem.

[rbowman]

On 08/18/2017 07:32 AM, !Jones wrote:
> Most people have a political position; however, beyond posting a
> scathing "tweet" or two, they're not going to start blowing up federal
> buildings. The issues pretty much appeal to people's emotions; nobody
> had really ever even thought about the statues until recently... but,
> are you really ready to run out and die to protect (or take down) a
> statue?

What's the straw going to be? The left seems intent on pushing a lot of
buttons. When are they going to hit the one where the silent majority
says "fuck this shit!"

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/noam-chomsky-antifa-is-a-major-gift-to-the-right/article/2631786

"When confrontation shifts to the arena of violence, it's the toughest
and most brutal who win – and we know who that is," said Chomsky, a
professor emeritus of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology.

There are a lot of strange bedfellows these days. EFF is taking the
stand that censorship is censorship even if it's by the seemingly
liberal organizations like Google and Facebook. Google sees gab.ai as a
growing competitor so they removed the app from Google Store.

http://gizmodo.com/cloudflare-ceo-on-terminating-service-to-neo-nazi-site-1797915295

Prince is debating with himself why one man should have to power to ban
someone just because he's in a bad mood and thinks Anglin is an asshole.

#AltTech is coming together to build communication channels that are
susceptible to Chinese style censorship by IT moguls. I see this winding
up with groups of people who aren't even living in the same world as
each other. Kiss any hope of constructive dialog goodbye.

Sadly, I see it being the left that kicked this off. Clinton calling
half the country 'deplorables', people afraid of saying anything that
will result in them being called racist, fascist, Nazi, or whatever the
Antifa term of the day is. I'm not going off into a Gunner style purge
rant but I hope they're satisfied when they wake a sleeping giant up.
He's liable to be goddamned grumpy.

[rbowman]

On 08/18/2017 02:12 PM, !Jones wrote:
> There is something about "bitcoin" that causes me deep discomfort.
> Maybe I just need to get over it and enter the 21st century... dunno.
> I buy gold... shiny and heavy in my hand (my *hand*, I tell you, not
> me fucking computer!)

The problem I have with bitcoin is the same as that of physical gold.
Government issued fiat currency can be the same. I lived through the
rampant inflation of the '70s. It was nowhere near the collapse of the
currency in Weimar Germany but the dollar was still volatile.

Bitcoin tells you right up from that it is volatile and not the place to
put you savings. They guarantee the exchange rate for 15 minutes which
isn't encouraging. The goldbugs have a built in optimism. Maybe I just
got hosed but it will get better sooner or later. Like people in the
stock market, they have very selective memories.

[Mr. B1ack]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 18:02:52 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
>news:d1jepct9s382d9ntg...@4ax.com...
>> ...
>> If it all falls down goes boom ... fifty years or so to
>> re-evolve a new system ? Maybe more ? Maybe
>> 1000 years ? Hard to say. The fall of Rome gives
>> us a preview of what happens when a large system
>> implodes. There is was mostly just europe, but
>> today ... everywhere. Only the tribal goatherds
>> are safe.
>
>A pandemic was a significant cause of the Dark Ages.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian

A second blow, no question. Delayed re-organization.
50% casualties in some areas.

But it was still a LONG time before europe got its
shit together again. The only cushion was that most
everywhere was agrarian, people grew their own
food. Here, now, food comes from supermarkets.
Almost nobody knows HOW to farm - and don't
seem to realize that food takes months to grow.

What happens during those months ?

Truck it in ? Trucks need fuel - which is the product
of many complex systems and industries. Trucks
need good roads and bridges - again the product
of complex organized societies, built from materials
made by complex systems and industries.

In a big collapse the lights soon go out and STAY out.
No electricity, no movement of raw materials worth
a damn, no high tech, no insurance or banks or
even money that's worth shit. I'd be a Monty Python
dark ages ... but not funny.

Between deprivation, disease and violence by
marauders ... I'm gonna guess at least 80% of
the US pop would be dead in a few months.
At least the land MIGHT be able to support farms
for the remaining 20%. Those chemical-soaked
ultra-high-yeild farms would be a thing of the past.
Indeed the crops from the year of doom would
just rot in the fields - no way to harvest, no way
to transport.

The higher you are, the further and faster you fall.
Those sophisticated effecient interwoven systems
are what makes the 1st world - but without them
we're dancing on air, no fallback position.

>along with the collapse of trade after Rome stopped suppressing
>pirates and brigands, who are the reason most people submit to rule by
>empires.

Took awhile to even get those 'empires' going.
Mostly warlords for a few centuries.

>European civilization began to recover shortly after the Plague ended.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne

Well, there were several bouts of plague ...

The "big empires" though DID help. They had
enough organizational and financial inertia to
carry societies through those plagues and
wars and other setbacks.

"Societies" anyway ... not always so much "people".
No FEMA back then.

The HRCC also became a 'super-organization'
which helped coordinate things and was somewhat
useful in preventing wars between the emergent
little empires.

[Mr. B1ack]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 19:52:03 -0500, !Jones <︰on...@fubahor.com> wrote:

>x-no-idiots: yes
>
>On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, in talk.politics.guns Mr. B1ack
><now...@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> There's no real way to be "fully prepared" to weather
>> an international disaster
>
>Dunno, dude... somebody brought up "bitcoin". How is *any* media of
>exchange worth anymore than people think it is? Narcotics are
>probably the only sure bet... particularly so if the usual sources are
>interrupted.

I agree. They'd get you more pigs than most
anything else. A stash of the better antibiotics
would be worth a lot too.

IF you could avoid being stabbed in the back. Little
or no law after the Day-o-Doom. People would
tend to just TAKE what they wanted. Got the
manpower to watch everything 24/7/365 ?

>Just some thoughts. If an astroid strikes, it probably doesn't
>matter; if I'm stoned enough, I won't care.

Asteroid strikes come in various sizes. Some would
exterminate all multi-cellular life, some are just a
regional inconvenience.

Oddly, the greatest proponent of an asterioid defense
network has been ... Vladimir Putin.

[Mr. B1ack]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 19:08:06 -0600, Just Wondering

If you plan to live in the woods forever, the ammo
and some antibiotics are the most useful things.

Alas if you plan to hold/defend/manage an AREA,
like a farm or brothel or tiny town ... THEN you need
lots of HELP. The help needs to be paid somehow.
Marauders need far less organization - they'll keep
at you, over and over and over.

A proper global social implosion would be *bad* ...
Instant 4th-world for people who only know how to
live 1st-world.

[Mr. B1ack]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:59:11 -0600, rbowman <bow...@montana.com>
wrote:

As I mentioned somewhere, it IS possible to leverage
a revolution with just a relatively small number of
insurgents. Certain chain-reactions of events can
be set in motion, until there's no turning back.

But you've gotta be very CLEVER to organize that -
doubly clever in a fat country like the USA. So far
neither further-left of further-right seems particularly
bright. But, if this continues, eventually a Goebbels
will emerge - somebody who knows how to organize
a show, push buttons, pull puppet-strings. This job
WAS taken by the MSM ... but they badly discredited
themselves, nobody trusts them anymore.

Up through most of the 60s, such 'engineers' had a
powerful tool - "iconography" ... mental pictures of
the way things ought to be inside everyones head.
Not exactly 'Jungian archetypes', but close. It is
easy to manipulate people by assembling the 'icons'
like Lego bricks in certain ways. But western
countries have been SO saturated with icons from
fictional media and TV that they just don't have the
same emotional impact that they used to.

In 1941 an American flag MEANT stuff ... it was a
whole emotional story in and of itself - and you knew
what you were supposed to think and do when you
saw it. Now flags are all over everything, underwear ...
not nearly the cultural/emotional resonance they
once had. A big blow to a modern-day Goebbels.
Even the MSM couldn't get much traction using
the old-fashioned brainwashing methods using
left-friendly iconography. If anything they trash-talked
Trump into the White House.

[Mr. B1ack]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 09:18:01 -0500, !Jones <︰on...@fubahor.com> wrote:

>x-no-idiots: yes
>
>On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 22:46:35 -0400, in talk.politics.guns Mr. B1ack
><now...@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> I've been trying to explain this to them ... but some boys
>> are just *enthusiastic* ........
>>
>> It's the reason Marx railed against the bourgeoise - the
>> vested middle class. By having a stake, having an
>> investment, the bourgeoise are a strong anti-revolutionary
>> influence. They RELY on the system, LIKE its perks.
>> The USA still has one of the biggest middle-classes in
>> the world. It'd be *very* hard to recruit a lot of revolutionaries,
>> for any side of the cause, here.
>>
>> The chink in all that is that it really doesn't take THAT
>> many hot-heads to get something started, something
>> that will just drive over the top of the bourgeoise. We
>> have seen this in respect to Islamic jihadism and it's
>> at least possible we could see it here. Those who are
>> literally active in revolutions rarely exceed 10% of the
>> population. The rest just complain and wait to see
>> who wins so they can say "We ALWAYS loved you !".
>
>I tend to agree; however, I don't think it would happen in the US *at
>this time*.

I agree ... well, 99% anyway. There COULD be some
over-the-top polarizing event - but I'm not sure what
that would have to be. It's not gonna be a few toppled
statues and scuffles between little groups swinging
sticks.

I'm more worried about the stuff you don't see ... like
Google firing people for not pretending to hold leftist
political values/doctrines as absolute Truths.

>I have always believed that "revolutionaries" (of either side of the
>philosophical spectrum) in the US are essentially just hobbyists.

Almost always the case. They're dabblers, do it for
the thrill and status amongst their peers. Once in a
great while you DO get Tim McVey's or the SLA though.

>They buy the latest tactical gear and dress up... make war faces in
>the mirror, etc. The problem is that they still have a vested
>interest in the social structure they propose to fight. Today, it's
>the right; however, I can remember "The Last Poets" playing at full
>volume in '69. (Whether or not they were "poets" is debatable; I was
>certainly hoping they'd be the last of the genre!)

The further-right likes to play dress-up. Makes 'em feel
like soldiers. Later they open a cold one and plop down
in the La-Z-Boy to watch the game on their big screens.
They are not revolutionaries - they are the bourgeoise,
part of the system, dependent on the system, invested
in the system. Destroying the system is tantamount to
shooting themselves.

The further-left likes to THINK it's not part of the system,
mostly younger/poorer, but todays snowflakes are even
MORE dependent on the system than the righties. They
can't exist without hand-outs - low on skills, low on job
prospects, voted most likely to sue the hand that feeds
them, just plain whiney and unpleasant. They too are
not revolutionaries. Without their 'safe spaces' and
"free" stuff they'd crumble.

>Some of us really *believed* that the people would rise up and wrest
>control... twenty-somethings are like that quite often. I suppose
>that we were similarly polarized in '69 and no civil war developed. I
>mean, Alex Jones has nothing on the Black Panthers when it comes to
>heated rhetoric.

Hmm ... I'll say something about todays crop - they're MEANER,
more PETTY, more SELF-ABSORBED. At least the old anti-war
protesters were after something abstractly "good" - todays just
wanna HURT the opposition. No grand ideals of freedom and
justice and fair breaks ... just bile.

And from that bile can come extreme acts ... MAYbe enough
to drive the final wedge in - especially if the MSM acts as an
amplifier instead of as a buffer.

But, for now, we're still doing OK ... hard to motivate an "OK"
population to throw it all away and start some very real kind
of civil war.

[Scout]

"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message

news:fm7fpcpusbibo5oja...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 18:02:52 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Mr. B1ack" <now...@nada.net> wrote in message
>>news:d1jepct9s382d9ntg...@4ax.com...
>>> ...
>>> If it all falls down goes boom ... fifty years or so to
>>> re-evolve a new system ? Maybe more ? Maybe
>>> 1000 years ? Hard to say. The fall of Rome gives
>>> us a preview of what happens when a large system
>>> implodes. There is was mostly just europe, but
>>> today ... everywhere. Only the tribal goatherds
>>> are safe.
>>
>>A pandemic was a significant cause of the Dark Ages.
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian
>
> A second blow, no question. Delayed re-organization.
> 50% casualties in some areas.
>
> But it was still a LONG time before europe got its
> shit together again. The only cushion was that most
> everywhere was agrarian, people grew their own
> food. Here, now, food comes from supermarkets.
> Almost nobody knows HOW to farm - and don't
> seem to realize that food takes months to grow.

Further the overwhelming bulk of seed stock is now hybrids that won't
reproduce.

How long until you can expand the limited stock of heirloom seed into enough
crops to feed everyone and have enough left over to do it the following year
allowing for loses?

Oh, and how do you get the starving people to realize they can't eat your
seed stock?

> What happens during those months ?

They die.

Those most likely to die will be the urbanities who have no idea of where
food is or how it comes about.

>
> Truck it in ? Trucks need fuel - which is the product
> of many complex systems and industries. Trucks
> need good roads and bridges - again the product
> of complex organized societies, built from materials
> made by complex systems and industries.
>
> In a big collapse the lights soon go out and STAY out.
> No electricity, no movement of raw materials worth
> a damn, no high tech, no insurance or banks or
> even money that's worth shit. I'd be a Monty Python
> dark ages ... but not funny.
>
> Between deprivation, disease and violence by
> marauders ... I'm gonna guess at least 80% of
> the US pop would be dead in a few months.

Depending on the time of year, I would put the figure as high as 90%

> At least the land MIGHT be able to support farms
> for the remaining 20%. Those chemical-soaked
> ultra-high-yeild farms would be a thing of the past.
> Indeed the crops from the year of doom would
> just rot in the fields - no way to harvest, no way
> to transport.

And almost no way to reseed.....given the bulk of seed stock that exists is
hybrids that are sterile.

Indeed, I would consider that among one of the most valuable types of
'money' after the first few months. Heirloom seed stock.

Which would be treated like gold, and when seeded would be among the most
important things to nurture and protect.

So far at least several years following a collapse heirloom seed stock would
be value. For you need to get and expand your cache of such seed before your
supply of hybrid seed stock runs out. so that it can take over when that
stock runs out.

Of course, some countries are better prepared for that, but here in the
US.....few people even grow heirloom crops anymore even in their garden
plots.

Canning lids will also become a hot 'money' item for as long as they last,
because they given you long term storage of food stuffs you otherwise can't
keep for long. Indeed, soon any sort of canned good would be 'money' because
it's would become your emergency food of last resort. Just as the freezed
dried stuff is for the preppers.

> The higher you are, the further and faster you fall.
> Those sophisticated effecient interwoven systems
> are what makes the 1st world - but without them
> we're dancing on air, no fallback position.

And worse we have a multitude of people who don't understand the problems,
have a self deluded view of their own importance, and would likely actively
interfere with those trying to maintain or repair such systems on a local
scale.

[Winston Smith]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 22:21:07 -0400, Mr. B1ack wrote:

> As I mentioned somewhere, it IS possible to leverage
> a revolution with just a relatively small number of
> insurgents. Certain chain-reactions of events can
> be set in motion, until there's no turning back.
>
> But you've gotta be very CLEVER to organize that -
> doubly clever in a fat country like the USA. So far
> neither further-left of further-right seems particularly
> bright.

Don't confuse the puppets with the puppeteers. Soros is very bright.
Bill Clinton and Al Gore are very bright if only in a cunning sort of
way. Hillary? Dumb as a rock she strikes me.

> But, if this continues, eventually a Goebbels
> will emerge - somebody who knows how to organize
> a show, push buttons, pull puppet-strings. This job
> WAS taken by the MSM ... but they badly discredited
> themselves, nobody trusts them anymore.

Ah, you anticipated me. I suspect our Goebbels is already there just
exercising the troops; a sort of basic training to get them fit and
experienced.

...snip

>
> In 1941 an American flag MEANT stuff ... it was a
> whole emotional story in and of itself - and you knew
> what you were supposed to think and do when you
> saw it. Now flags are all over everything, underwear ...
> not nearly the cultural/emotional resonance they
> once had. A big blow to a modern-day Goebbels.

It's not hard to get troops lined up behind a new icon in today's
social media. You can "like" but you can't dislike or even take back
your like. It shows the sheep where the herd is.

> Even the MSM couldn't get much traction using
> the old-fashioned brainwashing methods using
> left-friendly iconography. If anything they trash-talked
> Trump into the White House.

True. They are used to a politician cowering from the least suggestion
of criticism. Trump embraced it and demolished it. They have still to
find a new formula. Hard to change after decades of guaranteed
results.

[Winston Smith]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 22:33:55 -0400, Mr. B1ack wrote:

> Almost nobody knows HOW to farm - and don't
> seem to realize that food takes months to grow.

Worse yet. Most of the ones that do think they are prepared think a
salad garden is going to feed them. It's nice variety, vitamins and
minerals, but it has almost no calories and almost no protein and damn
little fat. It's going to take grains and legumes and acres of them to
feed one family given primitive farming and harvesting techniques.

> What happens during those months ?
>
> Truck it in ? Trucks need fuel - which is the product
> of many complex systems and industries. Trucks
> need good roads and bridges - again the product
> of complex organized societies, built from materials
> made by complex systems and industries.

Truckers need safe roads. No one will take a job if they are being
shot at along the roads, hijacked and worse. While leaving their
families back home to defend themselves.

> In a big collapse the lights soon go out and STAY out.
> No electricity, no movement of raw materials worth
> a damn, no high tech, no insurance or banks or
> even money that's worth shit. I'd be a Monty Python
> dark ages ... but not funny.

No electricity, no water pumps, no sewer pumps. Better live on a hill.
No computers to do the just-in-time programming that is all that
modern commerce knows.

[Scout]

"Winston Smith" <inv...@butterfly.net> wrote in message
news:7h0ipc5f5ti08oa3u...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 22:33:55 -0400, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>
>> Almost nobody knows HOW to farm - and don't
>> seem to realize that food takes months to grow.
>
> Worse yet. Most of the ones that do think they are prepared think a
> salad garden is going to feed them. It's nice variety, vitamins and
> minerals, but it has almost no calories and almost no protein and damn
> little fat. It's going to take grains and legumes and acres of them to
> feed one family given primitive farming and harvesting techniques.
>
>> What happens during those months ?
>>
>> Truck it in ? Trucks need fuel - which is the product
>> of many complex systems and industries. Trucks
>> need good roads and bridges - again the product
>> of complex organized societies, built from materials
>> made by complex systems and industries.
>
> Truckers need safe roads. No one will take a job if they are being
> shot at along the roads, hijacked and worse. While leaving their
> families back home to defend themselves.

Further, you have to ask what they stand to gain for making the trip. In
short what can that other community offer in return that makes it worth not
only the trip, but the risks?

>
>> In a big collapse the lights soon go out and STAY out.
>> No electricity, no movement of raw materials worth
>> a damn, no high tech, no insurance or banks or
>> even money that's worth shit. I'd be a Monty Python
>> dark ages ... but not funny.
>
> No electricity, no water pumps, no sewer pumps. Better live on a hill.
> No computers to do the just-in-time programming that is all that
> modern commerce knows.

Which won't matter because modern commerce will be as dead as the electrical
grid.

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
wrote:

>>
>>Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
>>Carolina before they pick up federal tax.
>>
>>I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.
>>
>>Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!
>
> Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
> what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
> pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
> global clusterfuck it may be zero.

The problem with using ammo, food etc etc...is that it has a limited
lifespan and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
to zero.

It can be passed around...as a gold like valuable media..but gold will
ALWAYS have value...even if its been converted from a coin to a ring
etc etc.

The idea of ammo etc being "valuable" is short term and has no
"duration"


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Attaboy Luther!]

On 8/20/2017 11:59 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
>>> Carolina before they pick up federal tax.
>>>
>>> I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.
>>>
>>> Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!
>>
>> Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
>> what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
>> pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
>> global clusterfuck it may be zero.
>
>
> The problem with using ammo, food etc etc...is that it has a limited
> lifespan and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
> to zero.
>
> It can be passed around...as a gold like valuable media..but gold will
> ALWAYS have value...even if its been converted from a coin to a ring
> etc etc.
>
> The idea of ammo etc being "valuable" is short term and has no
> "duration"

Weren't cigarettes used as currency when you were in Folsom prison, Wieber?

[Just Wondering]

On 8/20/2017 12:59 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>
>>> Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
>>> Carolina before they pick up federal tax.
>>>
>>> I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.
>>>
>>> Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!
>>
>> Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
>> what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
>> pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
>> global clusterfuck it may be zero.
>
> The problem with using ammo, food etc etc...is that
> it has a limited lifespan
>

The shelf life of modern ammunition is well over 100 years.

> and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
> to zero.
>

Like most commodities, ammo has value is because it IS useful
for its intended purpose.
So if cash money is no good, and you reject using commodities
for the reasons you gave, what do YOU advocate as an alternate
medium of exchange?

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:07:40 -0600, Just Wondering
<fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 8/20/2017 12:59 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>>
>>>> Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
>>>> Carolina before they pick up federal tax.
>>>>
>>>> I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.
>>>>
>>>> Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!
>>>
>>> Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
>>> what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
>>> pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
>>> global clusterfuck it may be zero.
>>
>> The problem with using ammo, food etc etc...is that
>> it has a limited lifespan
> >
>The shelf life of modern ammunition is well over 100 years.
>

Yes it is. And once its been used...its value becomes..what?

A tank of welding gas has value. Until its used. It has the same
value as ammo (relatively speaking)

As a long term unit of monetary value....no so good.
It can..can be traded, retraded, and traded again..but once its
used...it becomes of zero value.

>> and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
>> to zero.
>>
>Like most commodities, ammo has value is because it IS useful
>for its intended purpose.
>So if cash money is no good, and you reject using commodities
>for the reasons you gave, what do YOU advocate as an alternate
>medium of exchange?

Good question. Food and ammo are short term expedients at best.

Off the top of my head..Id say that seeds would come up as better
values..IN THE LONG TERM.

They will grow a crop and fresh seeds may be gotten from the produce.
And it will grow in amount.."interest" (Grin)

[Wile E. Coyote]

!Jones <ĄJo...@fubahor.com> wrote in
news:o1ecpc50tkmat4668...@4ax.com:

> x-no-idiots: yes
>
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 00:15:55 -0700, in talk.politics.guns "raykeller"
><whiney_will_have_his_nose_in_my_ass_in_3_2_1@leftards_are_loosers.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I believe it is no longer hyperbole to say the United States may very
>>well be on the road to a Second Civil War. This time it won't be North
>>vs. South, but Left vs. Right, Marxism vs. American Nationalism, Lunacy
>>vs. Sanity, Tyranny vs. Liberty.
>
> We may well be on the road to social disintegration; however, a civil
> war won't happen.
>
> First of all, we're *way* too fat and comfortable for that. Nobody
> who has actually seen a war takes the thought of these K-mart
> commandos closing to a fight seriously. I mean, how long did they
> last after Finicum bled out in the snow? ("OH! MURDER! MURDER!!!")
> Well, if you want a war, better get used to it!
>
> Second, there are no regional divisions. Liberals and alt-right are
> pretty homogeneous and there's no way to tell one from the other
> besides asking 'em. What are you gonna do? ... just start shooting
> everybody?
>
> Third, there really aren't that many people who really give a good
> rat's ass. OK, the people *you* hang with probably wear cammies and
> play war on the weekends, but they're comparatively rare.
>
> Jones
>
>

Really? I would happily shoot you.

--
It's time for the students to step up their game and kill people like
Coulter.

Siri Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> April 25, 2017

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8smjpchh4924d30ru...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
>>>Carolina before they pick up federal tax.
>>>
>>>I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.
>>>
>>>Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!
>>
>> Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
>> what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
>> pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
>> global clusterfuck it may be zero.
>
>
> The problem with using ammo, food etc etc...is that it has a limited
> lifespan and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
> to zero.
>
> It can be passed around...as a gold like valuable media..but gold will
> ALWAYS have value...even if its been converted from a coin to a ring
> etc etc.

Gold really isn't intrinsically valuable because it serves little industrial
value.

It is valuable merely because it's rare and it's seen as having value.

Push comes to shove.... gold coin could be nearly worthless.

Gold would have some value immediately after the collapse, and in the long
term once communities and intercommunity trade is reestablished, but in the
midterm people are only going to want that which actually be used by them
for their survival. Seed stock, food, ammunition, knowledge, and labor.

> The idea of ammo etc being "valuable" is short term and has no
> "duration"

On the contrary, ammunition can easily last 100 years. As such it will be
quite some time before it's value is zero.

by that time communities will have arisen and some sort of currency will
have been developed.

Finally, for those who have the proper guns and the ammunition for them,
will be a force to be reckoned with long after most people are reverted to
swords and axe.

Flintlocks will take longer because few people know how to obtain the
necessary items to even make black powder. Find it, extract it, refine it,
purify it. and finally make useable powder without blowing yourself up.

[Just Wondering]

The shelf life of most seeds is much shorter than the shelf
life of ammo. I agree that seeds would be a valuable commodity,
but they would be a commodity which once used are gone. If
your crop fails for whatever reason, they're just as gone
as a fired bullet. And they're of no value at all to someone
who doesn't have a plot of land to plant them, water to sustain
them, etc.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:io1kpcd2oa7ie31f6...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:07:40 -0600, Just Wondering
> <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>On 8/20/2017 12:59 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
>>>>> Carolina before they pick up federal tax.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!
>>>>
>>>> Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
>>>> what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
>>>> pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
>>>> global clusterfuck it may be zero.
>>>
>>> The problem with using ammo, food etc etc...is that
>>> it has a limited lifespan
>> >
>>The shelf life of modern ammunition is well over 100 years.
>>
>
> Yes it is. And once its been used...its value becomes..what?

A hundred pounds of venison, an attacker killed, a life saved, a harvest
protected, etc..

Modern ammunition will be of value for as long as it lasts because under the
sort of collapse you're thinking it will be a long time before it can be
replaced and the men armed with a modern gun and ammo for it, will be way
ahead of those who have had to revert to swords and other more primitive
weapons. Indeed, I can imagine a period of time when 'warlords' range the
countryside raiding for what they want and only those with modern arms will
be able to resist. Everyone else will be seen as mere cattle to those
'warlords' and their hordes.

>
> A tank of welding gas has value. Until its used. It has the same
> value as ammo (relatively speaking)

And it will be extremely valuable for as long as it lasts. We have tons of
material but if you expect to produce anything much bigger than a dinner
plate, you're going to lack the means. To be able to cut plate to shape for
armor....would be extremely valuable.

Though a good kitchen chemist could produce a number of welding gases
thought the amounts would be extremely limited and require a lot of time and
resources to produce.

>
> As a long term unit of monetary value....no so good.

Perhaps, but for the immediate period after the collapse it would be better
than gold.

> It can..can be traded, retraded, and traded again..but once its
> used...it becomes of zero value.

Yep, and what you make from it would be more valuable yet.

>
>>> and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
>>> to zero.
>>>
>>Like most commodities, ammo has value is because it IS useful
>>for its intended purpose.
>>So if cash money is no good, and you reject using commodities
>>for the reasons you gave, what do YOU advocate as an alternate
>>medium of exchange?
>
> Good question. Food and ammo are short term expedients at best.

Food always has value...look how much people spend on it today.

> Off the top of my head..Id say that seeds would come up as better
> values..IN THE LONG TERM.

Nope, that again would be a reasonably short term item, since once everyone
has the heirloom seeds, they aren't going to need more because at that point
it reverts to the status of food. Now in the mid term there would be a
market for seed stock of crops a community doesn't yet have, but they aren't
going to be buying lots of the stuff. Further as communities around them
obtain it, it's value is going to rapidly plunge since it will become vastly
easier and cheaper to obtain.

No, I would say seed stock would lose value far quicker than ammunition
though initially it would be more valuable.

>
> They will grow a crop and fresh seeds may be gotten from the produce.
> And it will grow in amount.."interest" (Grin)

Which is why the value will initially be high, and then rapidly plunge down
to being nothing more than another type of food.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 00:03:00 -0000 (UTC), "Wile E. Coyote"
<nuke_them_...@sulaco.com> wrote:

>!Jones <︰on...@fubahor.com> wrote in

Need a reload to do it right..simply ask. And an ax to take his
head..and a spike to hang it in public.

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 20:23:47 -0400, "Scout"
<me4...@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> wrote:

>
>
>"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:io1kpcd2oa7ie31f6...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:07:40 -0600, Just Wondering
>> <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 8/20/2017 12:59 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, Mr. B1ack wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
>>>>>> Carolina before they pick up federal tax.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!
>>>>>
>>>>> Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
>>>>> what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
>>>>> pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
>>>>> global clusterfuck it may be zero.
>>>>
>>>> The problem with using ammo, food etc etc...is that
>>>> it has a limited lifespan
>>> >
>>>The shelf life of modern ammunition is well over 100 years.
>>>
>>
>> Yes it is. And once its been used...its value becomes..what?
>
>A hundred pounds of venison, an attacker killed, a life saved, a harvest
>protected, etc..

Yes and once its used...what about the second hundred pounds of
venison, the second attacker...the next life in danger..and the
harvest after...?

Its only valuable until its used...then its worthless.

>
>Modern ammunition will be of value for as long as it lasts because under the
>sort of collapse you're thinking it will be a long time before it can be
>replaced and the men armed with a modern gun and ammo for it, will be way
>ahead of those who have had to revert to swords and other more primitive
>weapons. Indeed, I can imagine a period of time when 'warlords' range the
>countryside raiding for what they want and only those with modern arms will
>be able to resist. Everyone else will be seen as mere cattle to those
>'warlords' and their hordes.

Yes and when the last round of ammo is used? It becomes worthless.

As Ive said..its of short term value.

>
>
>>
>> A tank of welding gas has value. Until its used. It has the same
>> value as ammo (relatively speaking)
>
>And it will be extremely valuable for as long as it lasts. We have tons of
>material but if you expect to produce anything much bigger than a dinner
>plate, you're going to lack the means. To be able to cut plate to shape for
>armor....would be extremely valuable.

Yes it would..until its expended.

>
>Though a good kitchen chemist could produce a number of welding gases
>thought the amounts would be extremely limited and require a lot of time and
>resources to produce.

Perhaps..the pressurized O2 becomes an issue...calcium carbide can be
made. Not easily..but more so than the O2...the compressor to compress
it and put it into the tank and so forth.

>
>>
>> As a long term unit of monetary value....no so good.
>
>Perhaps, but for the immediate period after the collapse it would be better
>than gold.

Yes it would..but that wasnt the topic. Its only good until its used.
Then it becomes worthless.

>
>
>> It can..can be traded, retraded, and traded again..but once its
>> used...it becomes of zero value.
>
>Yep, and what you make from it would be more valuable yet.

Perhaps..but once the Stuff is made, the gases expended...there IS NO
MORE.

>
>>
>>>> and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
>>>> to zero.
>>>>
>>>Like most commodities, ammo has value is because it IS useful
>>>for its intended purpose.
>>>So if cash money is no good, and you reject using commodities
>>>for the reasons you gave, what do YOU advocate as an alternate
>>>medium of exchange?
>>
>> Good question. Food and ammo are short term expedients at best.
>
>Food always has value...look how much people spend on it today.

But below..you say once everybody has seeds..it becomes largely
worthless...everyone can grow their own food.

>
>> Off the top of my head..Id say that seeds would come up as better
>> values..IN THE LONG TERM.
>
>Nope, that again would be a reasonably short term item, since once everyone
>has the heirloom seeds, they aren't going to need more because at that point
>it reverts to the status of food. Now in the mid term there would be a
>market for seed stock of crops a community doesn't yet have, but they aren't
>going to be buying lots of the stuff. Further as communities around them
>obtain it, it's value is going to rapidly plunge since it will become vastly
>easier and cheaper to obtain.

Yes indeed...but it wont fall below "worthless" as expended ammo does.

>
>No, I would say seed stock would lose value far quicker than ammunition
>though initially it would be more valuable.

More valuable? How do you fight off brigands with a packet of seeds?

>
>
>>
>> They will grow a crop and fresh seeds may be gotten from the produce.
>> And it will grow in amount.."interest" (Grin)
>
>Which is why the value will initially be high, and then rapidly plunge down
>to being nothing more than another type of food.

Yes indeed. But it will have value. Unlike expended ammo.

See..its an interesting conundrum...no?

[Gunner Asch]

And ammo is worthless once its been fired...misses are of zero value
and so forth.

This is why gold and other similar items..rare gems etc etc..have
retained their "value". Because even if the crops fail..or the round
misses...someone will want the gold/jewel/etc

There is no..no..no "best answer" here.

Its all relative..moment to moment..until people agree on a common
"valuable item" that cannot be expended/used up. This is one of the
markes of civilization..by most defintions.

It could be rare art, it could be rubber balls..it could be
indestructable hoolahoops.......but it cannot be able to be "used up"

Fascinating to consider when rebuilding a new civilization..no?

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 20:10:49 -0400, "Scout"
<me4...@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> wrote:

>
>
>"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:8smjpchh4924d30ru...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:43:05 -0400, Mr. B1ack <now...@nada.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>Ciggies are also good. They ain't gonna drop any. I buy 'em in North
>>>>Carolina before they pick up federal tax.
>>>>
>>>>I'd stay away from "bitcoin"; however, you do as you think you should.
>>>>
>>>>Jones... hey, I'm a liberal, but I'm also a survivor!
>>>
>>> Alas you can't really EAT gold. It's worth exactly
>>> what people THINK it's worth (and can afford to
>>> pay). Sometimes that's a lot - but in case of a
>>> global clusterfuck it may be zero.
>>
>>
>> The problem with using ammo, food etc etc...is that it has a limited
>> lifespan and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
>> to zero.
>>
>> It can be passed around...as a gold like valuable media..but gold will
>> ALWAYS have value...even if its been converted from a coin to a ring
>> etc etc.
>
>Gold really isn't intrinsically valuable because it serves little industrial
>value.
>
>It is valuable merely because it's rare and it's seen as having value.
>
>Push comes to shove.... gold coin could be nearly worthless.

True enough. Ring tailed bat guano is worthless as well..dispite
being rare as can be. Because no one wants it. Civilization has not
used it for value.

>
>Gold would have some value immediately after the collapse, and in the long
>term once communities and intercommunity trade is reestablished, but in the
>midterm people are only going to want that which actually be used by them
>for their survival. Seed stock, food, ammunition, knowledge, and labor.

Gold tends to be a "catch phrase"...IE..it is a globally
(well..mostly) agreed on unit of value. Same with silver, platinum,
copper and other "indistructable" items.

>
>
>> The idea of ammo etc being "valuable" is short term and has no
>> "duration"
>
>On the contrary, ammunition can easily last 100 years. As such it will be
>quite some time before it's value is zero.

It becomes worthless the moment the sear breaks and the firing pin
falls.

>
>by that time communities will have arisen and some sort of currency will
>have been developed.

And what will that currency be based on? Ring tailed bat guano? Toe
jam by the gram? Armpit hair..but only red hair (If it were the
silver stuff..Id be fucking rich!!) ?

>
>Finally, for those who have the proper guns and the ammunition for them,
>will be a force to be reckoned with long after most people are reverted to
>swords and axe.

True indeed.

>
>Flintlocks will take longer because few people know how to obtain the
>necessary items to even make black powder. Find it, extract it, refine it,
>purify it. and finally make useable powder without blowing yourself up.

Its easily learned to make and anyone can make it. And have.

[Scout]

"Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:PUpmB.6599$sH2....@fx05.iad...

Only if they are hybrids. Heirloom seeds will replenish your seed supply
several times over with each growing season.

> If
> your crop fails for whatever reason, they're just as gone
> as a fired bullet.

True, which is why you would take loving care of them and protect them for
animals, wind, storms, and drought to the best of your abilities, Further
you would probably plant your cache of seeds over at least 2 seasons to
allow for a crop failure on the first season. Today, you might even plant
them in pots so you can take them indoors with you to further protect them.
Which given the limited access most people will have to heirloom seed would
almost certainly be done and would be among the community's early treasures
and very carefully seen after and protected.

> And they're of no value at all to someone
> who doesn't have a plot of land to plant them, water to sustain
> them, etc.

Not to worry, after the collapse of the modern technological society, in a
few months there will be land enough for anyone able to protect it and farm
it.

[Scout]

"Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:PUpmB.6599$sH2....@fx05.iad...

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:6phkpct3u4vutpp9h...@4ax.com...

> On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 18:34:53 -0600, Just Wondering
> <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Off the top of my head..Id say that seeds would come up as better
>>> values..IN THE LONG TERM.
>>>
>>> They will grow a crop and fresh seeds may be gotten from the produce.
>>> And it will grow in amount.."interest" (Grin)
>>>
>>The shelf life of most seeds is much shorter than the shelf
>>life of ammo. I agree that seeds would be a valuable commodity,
>>but they would be a commodity which once used are gone. If
>>your crop fails for whatever reason, they're just as gone
>>as a fired bullet. And they're of no value at all to someone
>>who doesn't have a plot of land to plant them, water to sustain
>>them, etc.
>
>
> And ammo is worthless once its been fired...misses are of zero value
> and so forth.

Gunner claims that saving your life has no value..............

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:kahkpc57cn33q5qkr...@4ax.com...

You do it again.

I suppose you think once you plant a crop and eat it, that's the end of it?

>
> Its only valuable until its used...then its worthless.

Except for what it does for you.

If expending a bullet keeps me alive, then it was worth it.

Whether you feel the same way about your own life, is up to you to decide.

>>
>>Modern ammunition will be of value for as long as it lasts because under
>>the
>>sort of collapse you're thinking it will be a long time before it can be
>>replaced and the men armed with a modern gun and ammo for it, will be way
>>ahead of those who have had to revert to swords and other more primitive
>>weapons. Indeed, I can imagine a period of time when 'warlords' range the
>>countryside raiding for what they want and only those with modern arms
>>will
>>be able to resist. Everyone else will be seen as mere cattle to those
>>'warlords' and their hordes.
>
> Yes and when the last round of ammo is used? It becomes worthless.

I will simply note that if staying alive is something you consider
worthless, then remind me not to waste my time saving you.

> As Ive said..its of short term value.

As is, apparently, your life.

>>> A tank of welding gas has value. Until its used. It has the same
>>> value as ammo (relatively speaking)
>>
>>And it will be extremely valuable for as long as it lasts. We have tons of
>>material but if you expect to produce anything much bigger than a dinner
>>plate, you're going to lack the means. To be able to cut plate to shape
>>for
>>armor....would be extremely valuable.
>
> Yes it would..until its expended.

Yep, but what you got from it's use will continue.

>>
>>Though a good kitchen chemist could produce a number of welding gases
>>thought the amounts would be extremely limited and require a lot of time
>>and
>>resources to produce.
>
> Perhaps..the pressurized O2 becomes an issue...calcium carbide can be
> made. Not easily..but more so than the O2...the compressor to compress
> it and put it into the tank and so forth.

Simple electrolysis can provide the O2, and a salvaged solar panel can run
that.

Pretty simple to come up with a pump to pump your O2 into a tank and
pressurize it. Of course you will need a lot of O2 and a lot of tanks
because you probably will be limited on the pressure you can create.

>>
>>>
>>> As a long term unit of monetary value....no so good.
>>
>>Perhaps, but for the immediate period after the collapse it would be
>>better
>>than gold.
>
> Yes it would..but that wasnt the topic. Its only good until its used.
> Then it becomes worthless.

But the life it's use saves might be your own. Does that count as worthless
in your view?

>>
>>
>>> It can..can be traded, retraded, and traded again..but once its
>>> used...it becomes of zero value.
>>
>>Yep, and what you make from it would be more valuable yet.
>
> Perhaps..but once the Stuff is made, the gases expended...there IS NO
> MORE.

There will be less, but since it can still be produced it will continue.

However, even assuming there is no more, what you made will exist and
continue to be of value long after the means has been used up.

That means it has value, it's use has value, and that value will continue
long after it's used up.

>>>>> and once its used for its intended purpose...its value drops
>>>>> to zero.
>>>>>
>>>>Like most commodities, ammo has value is because it IS useful
>>>>for its intended purpose.
>>>>So if cash money is no good, and you reject using commodities
>>>>for the reasons you gave, what do YOU advocate as an alternate
>>>>medium of exchange?
>>>
>>> Good question. Food and ammo are short term expedients at best.
>>
>>Food always has value...look how much people spend on it today.
>
> But below..you say once everybody has seeds..it becomes largely
> worthless...everyone can grow their own food.

The seed stock does, but food is a regular item of need as people are going
to need food so they can spend their time on other labors. You're willing to
sell them your food so you can buy that which such laborers produce.

Gee, we've just reinvented industrialization.

>>
>>> Off the top of my head..Id say that seeds would come up as better
>>> values..IN THE LONG TERM.
>>
>>Nope, that again would be a reasonably short term item, since once
>>everyone
>>has the heirloom seeds, they aren't going to need more because at that
>>point
>>it reverts to the status of food. Now in the mid term there would be a
>>market for seed stock of crops a community doesn't yet have, but they
>>aren't
>>going to be buying lots of the stuff. Further as communities around them
>>obtain it, it's value is going to rapidly plunge since it will become
>>vastly
>>easier and cheaper to obtain.
>
> Yes indeed...but it wont fall below "worthless" as expended ammo does.

Even if we ignore the value of the brass and the probability of reloading
it.....the value created by using the ammo may continue long after the ammo
has been fired. The killer you shot dead, will still be dead, you will still
be alive, and that would, I hope, hold value for you.

>>No, I would say seed stock would lose value far quicker than ammunition
>>though initially it would be more valuable.
>
> More valuable? How do you fight off brigands with a packet of seeds?

So now you're claiming that ammunition is valuable?

Tell me. How exactly do you expect to plant crops without seed?

Do you think you can manage to hunt enough game, with everyone else doing
the same, to survive?

Further what do you do once the common hybrid seed is all used up?

After all, the seed typically sold is hybrid which will not reproduce
itself.

Plus you probably don't want to live on one or two types of crops either. So
you're going to want different varieties of seed. Maybe even different
varieties of the same crop.

>>
>>
>>>
>>> They will grow a crop and fresh seeds may be gotten from the produce.
>>> And it will grow in amount.."interest" (Grin)
>>
>>Which is why the value will initially be high, and then rapidly plunge
>>down
>>to being nothing more than another type of food.
>
> Yes indeed. But it will have value. Unlike expended ammo.

If you don't think saving your life has no value....then I don't see why
you're even concerned over the value of other things.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:l2ikpcl015drlgujp...@4ax.com...

I'll take all you can get me.

Excellent source for salt peter which means I can reload my ammo.

> Civilization has not
> used it for value.

Interesting since bat caves were a common and regular source of salt peter
used not only for making black powder but also as a meat preservative.

I hope you don't think you would survive in the post EMP world....

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Sun, 20 Aug 2017 19:46:17 -0700
typed in misc.survivalism the following:

>
>>by that time communities will have arisen and some sort of currency will
>>have been developed.
>
>And what will that currency be based on? Ring tailed bat guano? Toe
>jam by the gram? Armpit hair..but only red hair (If it were the
>silver stuff..Id be fucking rich!!) ?

"Currency" is a medium of exchange and account. Accounting 101.
The advantage to gold is that it doesn't corrode like silver or
copper. But the Spartans eschewed effete gold for manly iron.
I'm trying to recall where it was that the locals were bilking the
invaders, because the invaders didn't consider gold to be as valuable
as silver was. (I know the Vikings preferred silver, gold was what
the crazy people would take for perfectly good silver.)

>>
>>Finally, for those who have the proper guns and the ammunition for them,
>>will be a force to be reckoned with long after most people are reverted to
>>swords and axe.
>
>True indeed.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares, will plow for those
who did not.


--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Sun, 20 Aug 2017 19:41:10 -0700

typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>

>>> Off the top of my head..Id say that seeds would come up as better
>>> values..IN THE LONG TERM.
>>>
>>> They will grow a crop and fresh seeds may be gotten from the produce.
>>> And it will grow in amount.."interest" (Grin)
>>>
>>The shelf life of most seeds is much shorter than the shelf
>>life of ammo. I agree that seeds would be a valuable commodity,
>>but they would be a commodity which once used are gone. If
>>your crop fails for whatever reason, they're just as gone
>>as a fired bullet. And they're of no value at all to someone
>>who doesn't have a plot of land to plant them, water to sustain
>>them, etc.
>
>
>And ammo is worthless once its been fired...misses are of zero value
>and so forth.
>
>This is why gold and other similar items..rare gems etc etc..have
>retained their "value". Because even if the crops fail..or the round
>misses...someone will want the gold/jewel/etc
>
>There is no..no..no "best answer" here.
>
>Its all relative..moment to moment..until people agree on a common
>"valuable item" that cannot be expended/used up. This is one of the
>markes of civilization..by most defintions.
>
>It could be rare art, it could be rubber balls..it could be
>indestructable hoolahoops.......but it cannot be able to be "used up"
>
>Fascinating to consider when rebuilding a new civilization..no?

In the novel Malvel WW3 has wiped out most of France, leaving a
few survivors. One of them is a horse trader, and he has just
concluded a deal for the two mares (he already has The stallion. Yes,
as in The Only Stallion in the "known world"). One of the henchmen
wants to argue that the saddle and tack were not included, Etienne
figures that trading his gold ring for a monopoly on the "the world's"
horses is a deal. The ring is "worthless" to him. Or should I say
"worth less" to him, than the horses. It is going to be a long time
till the economy is on a cash basis again.

The value of anything is that it is my pocket and not yours. Be
it gold & silver, stocks & Bonds, bitcoins, a carton of cigarettes or
a brick of 22. Which is why, it is a good idea to keep a case of
medium whiskey on hand "for trading" when cash is tight. Even if
you're Baptist or Mormon.

tschus
pyotr

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:33:17 -0400, "Scout"

Whatever gave you the idea that I thought less of my life? The
discussion is on how "ammo" is not a long term "representation of
value".

Notice how we have already recreated cvilization (above) and have
enough food to keep it alive? That was my goal afterall.

Ammo is not wealth. Its only a means.

Gold, jewels,artwork..non expendable items are better for
"representation of wealth".

Ammo is pretty fucking handy to have..but to trade it off..removes its
value for YOU and yours..and in some instances..becomes a serious
debit..depending on who gets your ammo. Afterall...they may get a
single round of your ammo and kill you with it..thereby inheriting all
the rest of your ammo and other worldly goods. They will be "rich"
and you will be fertilizer.

Ammo is a very handy tool..and tools are valuable..but they are just
tools.

[Gunner Asch]

I did? Where?

[Gunner Asch]

Well stated! Depending on (1) item for wealth...ammo..is buffoonery
writ large. In some cases..booze is better for trading than is ammo.
Because the booze cant be used against you, next week.

[Gunner Asch]

Absolutely correct! And they will increase in quantity with each
harvest.

>
>
>
>> If
>> your crop fails for whatever reason, they're just as gone
>> as a fired bullet.
>
>True, which is why you would take loving care of them and protect them for
>animals, wind, storms, and drought to the best of your abilities, Further
>you would probably plant your cache of seeds over at least 2 seasons to
>allow for a crop failure on the first season. Today, you might even plant
>them in pots so you can take them indoors with you to further protect them.
>Which given the limited access most people will have to heirloom seed would
>almost certainly be done and would be among the community's early treasures
>and very carefully seen after and protected.
>
>> And they're of no value at all to someone
>> who doesn't have a plot of land to plant them, water to sustain
>> them, etc.
>
> Not to worry, after the collapse of the modern technological society, in a
>few months there will be land enough for anyone able to protect it and farm
>it.
>

Ayup!!

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 23:36:33 -0400, "Scout"

Ayup. (this is why I mentioned guano btw...)

>
>> Civilization has not
>> used it for value.
>
>Interesting since bat caves were a common and regular source of salt peter
>used not only for making black powder but also as a meat preservative.
>
>I hope you don't think you would survive in the post EMP world....
>

Id survive just fine until old age takes me away. Ive been doing this
for decades.

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 21:37:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:

Then we have the Yap Islanders...

Quite a good article on the concept of money

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/15/131934618/the-island-of-stone-money

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:6hpkpcd5q0i2ot8no...@4ax.com...

You hope anyway.a

[Scout]

"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:2kokpctsmqcrv1iur...@4ax.com...

> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Sun, 20 Aug 2017 19:46:17 -0700
> typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>
>>>by that time communities will have arisen and some sort of currency will
>>>have been developed.
>>
>>And what will that currency be based on? Ring tailed bat guano? Toe
>>jam by the gram? Armpit hair..but only red hair (If it were the
>>silver stuff..Id be fucking rich!!) ?
>
> "Currency" is a medium of exchange and account. Accounting 101.
> The advantage to gold is that it doesn't corrode like silver or
> copper. But the Spartans eschewed effete gold for manly iron.
> I'm trying to recall where it was that the locals were bilking the
> invaders, because the invaders didn't consider gold to be as valuable
> as silver was. (I know the Vikings preferred silver, gold was what
> the crazy people would take for perfectly good silver.)

Currency can be almost anything as long as it's something that can't be
readily produced, duplicated, or imitated and which people will accept for
their goods and services.

I mean heck, look at all the people willing to accept little pieces of
paper.

All I can say is I won't trade ammunition for pieces of gold in a post EMP
world.
I might for things I can readily make, grow, or otherwise replace.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:i1pkpcddo3899pavs...@4ax.com...

Sure it is. Until someone can recreate it then it is a limited and
decreasing stock that people are going to want.

For someone with a gun and the ammunition for it is going to be with any
more than a few yards between them a better fighter than the baddest meanest
toughest guy with a sword.

Those groups that have guns and ammunition for them....will rule and tax
those who don't.

Indeed with one bullet I can kill you and take all your booze. Unless you
will and can defend it, then it's there for whoever has the means and will
to take it from you.

>
> Notice how we have already recreated cvilization (above) and have
> enough food to keep it alive? That was my goal afterall.

The a gang of people will guns come in, kill off those who resist and take
what you've worked so hard for, and from then on you make regular payments
or they will kill everyone.

> Ammo is not wealth. Its only a means.

A means to survive, and means to defend, and means to attack.......one which
can't be overcome by a few knives or swords.

> Gold, jewels,artwork..non expendable items are better for
> "representation of wealth".

Whereas the people with guns and ammunition don't need a representation of
weath...they have all the wealth they want because they can take it from
whomever cant match their weapons.

> Ammo is pretty fucking handy to have..but to trade it off..removes its
> value for YOU and yours..and in some instances..becomes a serious
> debit..depending on who gets your ammo.

True, but that's why it would be so valuable. Because you won't trade it for
just anything.

> Afterall...they may get a
> single round of your ammo and kill you with it..thereby inheriting all
> the rest of your ammo and other worldly goods.

Which is certainly a possibility if you don't have your own ammunition. Oh,
but that's right, you won't because you don't see the 'value' in it.

>They will be "rich"
> and you will be fertilizer.
>
> Ammo is a very handy tool..and tools are valuable..but they are just
> tools.

Sure are, and they are tools that can either let you keep what you have, or
take that which you don't.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:7cpkpcl0ha28kbgdg...@4ax.com...

When you told us that a fired round has no value.

[Just Wondering]

On 8/20/2017 8:41 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Aug 2017 18:34:53 -0600, Just Wondering
> <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Off the top of my head..Id say that seeds would come up as better
>>> values..IN THE LONG TERM.
>>>
>>> They will grow a crop and fresh seeds may be gotten from the produce.
>>> And it will grow in amount.."interest" (Grin)
>>>
>> The shelf life of most seeds is much shorter than the shelf
>> life of ammo. I agree that seeds would be a valuable commodity,
>> but they would be a commodity which once used are gone. If
>> your crop fails for whatever reason, they're just as gone
>> as a fired bullet. And they're of no value at all to someone
>> who doesn't have a plot of land to plant them, water to sustain
>> them, etc.
>
>
> And ammo is worthless once its been fired...misses are of zero value
> and so forth.
>
> This is why gold and other similar items..rare gems etc etc..have
> retained their "value". Because even if the crops fail..or the round
> misses...someone will want the gold/jewel/etc
>

And if you have the gold and gems, and some asshole has a gun and ammo,
pretty soon he will have a gun and ammo and gold and gems, and you will
have nothing, except your life if you are lucky.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:vipkpc9g3qdcdeiep...@4ax.com...

Somehow I doubt that.

>>
>>> Civilization has not
>>> used it for value.
>>
>>Interesting since bat caves were a common and regular source of salt peter
>>used not only for making black powder but also as a meat preservative.
>>
>>I hope you don't think you would survive in the post EMP world....
>>
>
> Id survive just fine until old age takes me away. Ive been doing this
> for decades.

Again I doubt it.

[Just Wondering]

Including 2-legged critters, for which you will want that gun and ammo.
And if your vegan garden falls, that same gun and ammo will let you
harvest 4-legged critters for food.

> wind, storms, and drought to the best of your abilities,
> Further you would probably plant your cache of seeds over at least 2
> seasons to allow for a crop failure on the first season. Today, you
> might even plant them in pots so you can take them indoors with you to
> further protect them. Which given the limited access most people will
> have to heirloom seed would almost certainly be done and would be among
> the community's early treasures and very carefully seen after and
> protected.
>
>> And they're of no value at all to someone
>> who doesn't have a plot of land to plant them, water to sustain
>> them, etc.
>
> Not to worry, after the collapse of the modern technological society, in
> a few months there will be land enough for anyone able to protect it and
> farm it.
>

By which time, without a gun and ammo you may be dead.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:53:38 -0400, "Scout"
<me4...@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> wrote:

>
>> Ammo is pretty fucking handy to have..but to trade it off..removes its
>> value for YOU and yours..and in some instances..becomes a serious
>> debit..depending on who gets your ammo.
>
>True, but that's why it would be so valuable. Because you won't trade it for
>just anything.
>
>
>> Afterall...they may get a
>> single round of your ammo and kill you with it..thereby inheriting all
>> the rest of your ammo and other worldly goods.
>
>Which is certainly a possibility if you don't have your own ammunition. Oh,
>but that's right, you won't because you don't see the 'value' in it.

Blink blink...are you reading someone elses posts?

Ive got ammo for years, on hand. Sure you havent been sitting at
lunch in a Leftists diner somewhere? You appear to have become
contaminated. "you wont because you dont see the value in it?"

Blink....I hope this isnt your best argument.....

Gunner

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:54:11 -0400, "Scout"

A fired round has zip value.

Firing that round may indeed have value.

Blink blink......blink.....

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 00:00:33 -0600, Just Wondering
<fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:

>>
>> And ammo is worthless once its been fired...misses are of zero value
>> and so forth.
>>
>> This is why gold and other similar items..rare gems etc etc..have
>> retained their "value". Because even if the crops fail..or the round
>> misses...someone will want the gold/jewel/etc
>>
>And if you have the gold and gems, and some asshole has a gun and ammo,
>pretty soon he will have a gun and ammo and gold and gems, and you will
>have nothing, except your life if you are lucky.
>

What...do you think someone here is claiming one shouldnt have guns
and plenty of ammo?

You drinking this evening?


Gunner

[Gunner Asch]

You hope a meteor doesnt turn your neighborhood into a big ass crater
too.

Now if you are smart...you can grow crops.

If you arent smart...you are dead.

Shrug

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 00:40:58 -0600, Just Wondering
<fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:

>>
>>
>>> If your crop fails for whatever reason, they're just as gone
>>> as a fired bullet.
>>
>> True, which is why you would take loving care of them and protect them
>> for animals,
> >
>Including 2-legged critters, for which you will want that gun and ammo.
>And if your vegan garden falls, that same gun and ammo will let you
>harvest 4-legged critters for food.

Of course. Who is claiming guns and ammo dont have a place here?

>
>
>> wind, storms, and drought to the best of your abilities,
>> Further you would probably plant your cache of seeds over at least 2
>> seasons to allow for a crop failure on the first season. Today, you
>> might even plant them in pots so you can take them indoors with you to
>> further protect them. Which given the limited access most people will
>> have to heirloom seed would almost certainly be done and would be among
>> the community's early treasures and very carefully seen after and
>> protected.
>>
>>> And they're of no value at all to someone
>>> who doesn't have a plot of land to plant them, water to sustain
>>> them, etc.
>>
>> Not to worry, after the collapse of the modern technological society, in
>> a few months there will be land enough for anyone able to protect it and
>> farm it.
>>
>By which time, without a gun and ammo you may be dead.

So you really shouldnt have traded off your ammo as a "wealth" item?

Thank you for your surrender.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:56:01 -0400, "Scout"

Scout old boy...I recall you bragging on me some time back about my
expertise with firearms etc et al. So were you lying then?

>
>>>
>>>> Civilization has not
>>>> used it for value.
>>>
>>>Interesting since bat caves were a common and regular source of salt peter
>>>used not only for making black powder but also as a meat preservative.
>>>
>>>I hope you don't think you would survive in the post EMP world....
>>>
>>
>> Id survive just fine until old age takes me away. Ive been doing this
>> for decades.
>
>Again I doubt it.
>

Your opinion is noted. Unless this isnt Scout. Ill have to compare
headers

[Gunner Asch]

Smart guy. So it may not be good "money" after all?

>
>
>>>>Finally, for those who have the proper guns and the ammunition for them,
>>>>will be a force to be reckoned with long after most people are reverted
>>>>to
>>>>swords and axe.
>>>
>>>True indeed.
>>
>> Those who beat their swords into plowshares, will plow for those
>> who did not.
>>
>>
>> --
>> pyotr filipivich
>> Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

[Just Wondering]

I suggest having enough on hand to protect you and yours and have enough
left over to use as a medium of barter/exchange. Not a measly thousand
rounds, but whole cases of it - perhaps something on the order of 20,000
rounds of centerfire ammo.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 02:27:06 -0600, Just Wondering

Indeed...and be very..very..very careful about who you trade it to.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:2l5lpc5h5f81uqqfu...@4ax.com...

I see, so you have value when you fire the round, but the man you shoot at
won't be hit because the moment the round is fired it no longer has any
value......

I think every moment you remain alive after shooting your attacker would be
value that you will continue to have for the rest of your life.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:cg5lpcpj3unumetba...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 01:53:38 -0400, "Scout"
> <me4...@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Ammo is pretty fucking handy to have..but to trade it off..removes its
>>> value for YOU and yours..and in some instances..becomes a serious
>>> debit..depending on who gets your ammo.
>>
>>True, but that's why it would be so valuable. Because you won't trade it
>>for
>>just anything.
>>
>>
>>> Afterall...they may get a
>>> single round of your ammo and kill you with it..thereby inheriting all
>>> the rest of your ammo and other worldly goods.
>>
>>Which is certainly a possibility if you don't have your own ammunition.
>>Oh,
>>but that's right, you won't because you don't see the 'value' in it.
>
>
> Blink blink...are you reading someone elses posts?
>
> Ive got ammo for years, on hand.

Which is worthless because you wont trade it, you wont use it, and according
to you it quickly goes bad.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:6p5lpcdf5sqqkq3aq...@4ax.com...

We'll chalk you up as among the dead then.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:3v5lpclp4v451fv6d...@4ax.com...

Modern firearms, and knowing how to make black powder much less the sources
for what you will need are two vastly different things.

[Scout]

"Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:0gvmB.671$pI2...@fx10.iad...

\
I believe I implied you would need to still be alive, since if ou're dead
you can neither protect it nor farm it. At most you can fertilize it.

[Scout]

"Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:xPwmB.5134$xI2...@fx42.iad...

Yep, and with that you can set yourself up as the head of the community,
with a loyal force of people willing to protect you and the peasants.

The start of a nice little feudal society.

Which requires you to not have just enough ammo for your needs but for your
core supporters and fighters.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:866lpc182le4v78bp...@4ax.com...

Depends. If I have ammo which is no use to me, then it certainly becomes
potential trade goods. It also becomes trade goods for those who's skills I
need and for those who would defend me and the community I would establish.

Those who have the power will make the rules for those who don't.

[Just Wondering]

I recall a Mythbusters show where they tried to make black
powder. They weren't able to do it. If you plan on doing
it during a zombie apocalypse, you'd better study and practice
now until you can do it right.

[pyotr filipivich]

"Scout" <me4...@removethis.this2.spam.centurylink.net> on Mon, 21 Aug
2017 01:31:27 -0400 typed in misc.survivalism the following:

>
>
>"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:2kokpctsmqcrv1iur...@4ax.com...
>> Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Sun, 20 Aug 2017 19:46:17 -0700
>> typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>>>
>>>>by that time communities will have arisen and some sort of currency will
>>>>have been developed.
>>>
>>>And what will that currency be based on? Ring tailed bat guano? Toe
>>>jam by the gram? Armpit hair..but only red hair (If it were the
>>>silver stuff..Id be fucking rich!!) ?
>>
>> "Currency" is a medium of exchange and account. Accounting 101.
>> The advantage to gold is that it doesn't corrode like silver or
>> copper. But the Spartans eschewed effete gold for manly iron.
>> I'm trying to recall where it was that the locals were bilking the
>> invaders, because the invaders didn't consider gold to be as valuable
>> as silver was. (I know the Vikings preferred silver, gold was what
>> the crazy people would take for perfectly good silver.)
>
>Currency can be almost anything as long as it's something that can't be
>readily produced, duplicated, or imitated and which people will accept for
>their goods and services.

Like Tobacco. Furs. Beadwork.

Shiny metals.

>
>I mean heck, look at all the people willing to accept little pieces of
>paper.

I remember traveling in Italy in the seventies - you got your
change in hard candies, or literal bank notes. 100 lira "notes"
issued by the local bank (think of it as there being no nickels, dimes
and quarters.) Accepted locally, they couldn't be exchanged for
foreign currency - because they were not "legal tender". Made great
bookmark collections.

J.P. Morgan, in 1912, said before Congress, “Gold is money, and
nothing else.” If he were speaking in 2012, he would say “Federal
Reserve Notes are money, and nothing else.”


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

[pyotr filipivich]

Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> on Sun, 20 Aug 2017 21:48:10 -0700

typed in misc.survivalism the following:
>

>>>It could be rare art, it could be rubber balls..it could be
>>>indestructable hoolahoops.......but it cannot be able to be "used up"
>>>
>>>Fascinating to consider when rebuilding a new civilization..no?
>>

>> In the novel Malvel WW3 has wiped out most of France, leaving a
>>few survivors. One of them is a horse trader, and he has just
>>concluded a deal for the two mares (he already has The stallion. Yes,
>>as in The Only Stallion in the "known world"). One of the henchmen
>>wants to argue that the saddle and tack were not included, Etienne
>>figures that trading his gold ring for a monopoly on the "the world's"
>>horses is a deal. The ring is "worthless" to him. Or should I say
>>"worth less" to him, than the horses. It is going to be a long time
>>till the economy is on a cash basis again.
>>
>> The value of anything is that it is my pocket and not yours. Be
>>it gold & silver, stocks & Bonds, bitcoins, a carton of cigarettes or
>>a brick of 22. Which is why, it is a good idea to keep a case of
>>medium whiskey on hand "for trading" when cash is tight. Even if
>>you're Baptist or Mormon.
>>
>>tschus
>>pyotr
>
>Well stated! Depending on (1) item for wealth...ammo..is buffoonery
>writ large. In some cases..booze is better for trading than is ammo.
>Because the booze cant be used against you, next week.

And in this case - owning the only source for future
transportation needs (nice thing about horses - they can be
self-replicating) is worth far more than a "trinket".

The other thing to remember is that ATSHTF, the value of any item
- pistol, pack of smokes, box of ammo, roll of toilet paper,
paperbacks is the same as it currently is. Whatever the market will
bear.

[Scout]

"Just Wondering" <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:svJmB.16553$wI2....@fx41.iad...

Yep, INCLUDING finding local sources for what you need including that used
in the refining and purification steps.

[rbowman]

On 08/19/2017 09:38 PM, Winston Smith wrote:
> Truckers need safe roads. No one will take a job if they are being
> shot at along the roads, hijacked and worse. While leaving their
> families back home to defend themselves.

You don't even need a gun. Those high fences along overpasses are to
keep suicidal pedestrians from killing themselves but only a few areas
have them.

[Wile E. Coyote]

"raykeller"
<whiney_will_have_his_nose_in_my_ass_in_3_2_1@leftards_are_loosers.com>
wrote in news:on0r75$gbe$1...@dont-email.me:

>
>
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3577546/posts
> The Left is Marching the Nation Toward Civil War
> US Defense Watch ^ | August 15, 2017 | Ray Starmann
>
>
> I believe it is no longer hyperbole to say the United States may very
> well be on the road to a Second Civil War. This time it won't be North
> vs. South, but Left vs. Right, Marxism vs. American Nationalism, Lunacy
> vs. Sanity, Tyranny vs. Liberty.
>
> The Left has been on a collision course with reality since 1968, when
> the party began to abandon its own Dixiecrats, taking a sharp turn
> against the Vietnam War, against American values; embracing socialism
> and eventually metamorphosizing into the lunatic Orwellian beast it is
> today. Name a crazy position and the left supports it. Name an
> anti-American political platform and the left supports it. Name a
> position that the left despises and their violence knows no bounds.
>
> The left's Marxist intolerance and premeditated violence for the last
> year and a half has been directed towards the supporters of first
> candidate Trump and now the President. There have been hundreds and
> hundreds of left-wing assaults against Trump supporters of all races,
> genders and creeds.
>
> Why were these attacks committed; for the sole reason that the left
> tolerates no one who disagrees with their Eurocrap Orwellian Great Leap
> Backward for America.
>
> The violence aimed at Trump supporters at rallies shifted into larger
> melees across the nation, where thousands of ant-like Antifa
> (Anti-Fascist) anarchists, supported by Lucifer 6 Actual, aka George
> Soros and motivated by lies spread on CNN and MSDNC, have vandalized
> buildings, burned cars, beat up citizens, fought with the police and
> terrorized anyone who dares to disagree with them.
>
> At Berkeley, the Antifa destroyed property and caused millions of
> dollars worth of damage because they were unhappy that the right wing
> blogger Milo Yiannopoulos was going to speak there.
>
> In Berkeley, the police force, ordered to stand down by the mayor,
> simply watched the violence ensue.
>
> The left claims to be tolerant, and so sensitive to everyone's feelings
> and likes to throw around big words like diversity and inclusion, but in
> actuality, they are tyrants who would have found a home in Nazi Germany
> or the Soviet Union.
>
> Anyone the left disagrees with must be silenced and usually by force.
> Anyone the left feels has aggrieved them, must be silenced and usually
> by force. Any law the left dislikes must be ignored. Any sentence to the
> US constitution the left despises must be twisted. Any history the left
> hates must be erased and disappeared permanently from the minds, museums
> and books of America.
>
> The left has been at war with the Confederacy for the apparent reason
> that the South still had the institution of slavery. What really bothers
> the left is that Southern secession was a libertarian revolt against Big
> Brother. Small government is Kryptonite to the left.
>
> Therefore, every statue, every monument, every flag that honors the
> brave men who fought for the greatest army the US has ever fielded, must
> be eradicated from all history, forever, and made to disappear into the
> night like a train car of dissidents on the way to Siberia.
>
> Statues of Robert E. Lee, the most beloved general in American history
> are being pulled down like large stone edifices of the Romanian butcher,
> Ceausescu. Stonewall, Jeff Davis, good ole J.E.B. Stuart and Johnny Reb
> himself must be erased from the nation's past by the order of America's
> modern day Pol Pot re-educators.
>
> In Charlottesville, Virginia, on Saturday, the left's army of
> anti-Fascist Fascists collided head on with the most extreme element of
> the right, the KKK and a sundry assortment of Neo-Nazis and white
> supremacists. James Fields, a 20 year old madman and self-proclaimed
> white supremacist drove his car into a left wing crowd, killing three
> people and injuring others.
>
> What happened in Charlottesville is appalling and only a maniac would
> condone what happened or associate themselves with the KKK and the
> Neo-Nazis.
>
> But, one must ask what the Antifa was doing there dressed in black with
> baseball bats? No doubt they were planning on assaulting the peaceful,
> pro Robert E. Lee protesters who were in the streets of Charlottesville
> as well.
>
> As in Berkeley, the police in Charlottesville stood down and watched the
> deaths from the sidelines like cowardly spectators.
>
> Yesterday, the left tore down a CSA monument in Durham, and once again
> the police stood by and let the vandalism take place. The police in
> America are becoming no more useful than the police during the last days
> of the USSR.
>
> Think the left is just going to stop with Lee and Davis, think again.
>
> Today, a group of left wing wackos gathered in front of the National
> History Museum in New York, demanding that a statue of Teddy Roosevelt
> be taken down on the grounds that TR was a racist.
>
> Of course he was, he was a white man. All white men are racists, rapists
> and evil according to the left, even though the white man and European
> civilization took the world out of the Dark Age and into the
> Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Reformation and the American
> Revolution, while giving the planet music, art, the sciences and the
> rights of man in the process. Most importantly, as civilization
> advanced, those of all colors, creeds and genders eventually enjoyed the
> wealth and freedom that was a result of European, aka Western
> Civilization.
>
> The Muslims the left and feminists embrace so fervently have given the
> world nothing but sand, oil and death.
>
> So, what happens next?
>
> Sadly, there will be more violence, more vandalism and more bloodshed on
> both sides. There will be more confrontations for one reason and one
> reason only, the left wants it.
>
> The left wants a Civil War. They very well may get it.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
>
>
>

Don't worry. it won't last long.

--
It's time for the students to step up their game and kill people like
Coulter.

Siri Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> April 25, 2017

[rbowman]

On 08/20/2017 08:41 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> It could be rare art, it could be rubber balls..it could be
> indestructable hoolahoops.......but it cannot be able to be "used up"

There's use value and exchange value. If a person decides the use value
to them exceeds the exchange value, they use it. For example if
cigarettes were a medium of exchange I could trade in them forever as
long as their exchange value held. They have no use value to me.

Some strange things have become mediums of exchange in the past.
Scarcity is one factor. Consider wampum. It had exchange value when it
was laborious to make beads from seashells; when the white showed up
with factory made beads wampum was good for museum exhibits.

You're right, it could be anything, but I think it can be something with
use values like cigarettes in jail.

[rbowman]

On 08/20/2017 10:37 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> The value of anything is that it is my pocket and not yours. Be
> it gold & silver, stocks & Bonds, bitcoins, a carton of cigarettes or
> a brick of 22. Which is why, it is a good idea to keep a case of
> medium whiskey on hand "for trading" when cash is tight. Even if
> you're Baptist or Mormon.

I don't know if they're even around or if they can easily be bought in
bulk, but those airline nip bottles would be good. How do you make
change for a fifth of Jim Beam?

[rbowman]

On 08/21/2017 02:17 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 00:00:33 -0600, Just Wondering
> <fmh...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> And ammo is worthless once its been fired...misses are of zero value
>>> and so forth.
>>>
>>> This is why gold and other similar items..rare gems etc etc..have
>>> retained their "value". Because even if the crops fail..or the round
>>> misses...someone will want the gold/jewel/etc
>>>
>> And if you have the gold and gems, and some asshole has a gun and ammo,
>> pretty soon he will have a gun and ammo and gold and gems, and you will
>> have nothing, except your life if you are lucky.
>>
>
>
> What...do you think someone here is claiming one shouldnt have guns
> and plenty of ammo?

To get into the apocalyptic literature world 'one' with a gun collection
is a supply depot for ten motivated bikers.

[Gunner Asch]

No..I wont trade it. I certainly will use it if the need arises and
yes..it lasts every bit of 100 yrs. I recently fired some 3006 that
was loaded in 1916.

Sure this really is Scout? It seems to more along the lines of one of
the loony leftists writing this tripe.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:09:49 -0400, "Scout"

You really got your skivies pulled up tight in your ass crack dont
you?

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:10:27 -0400, "Scout"

(Grin)....if this were a Lefty..Id say that was typical stupidity.

For you? I got under your hide pretty badly didnt I?

Sucks to be you, then. Shrug

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:11:26 -0400, "Scout"

Yes ...and?

I found a complete, unopened CVA flintlock Kentucky rifle kit a couple
weeks ago at a yard sale. Ive started inletting the lock and doing a
bit of sanding and fitting. Easy project. The seller claimed to
have bought it back in the early 1990s and it got tucked away and
forgotten about. So Im on my way to building my second flintlock
rifle. Im sure you have seen them back when. $30

Ive got a decent supply of 4f powder and flints...so Ill probably put
it on my firearms page when Im done, if you want to see what I dont
know about guns.

Need the link?
Im sure you have seen the half dozen or so percussion lock rifles and
handful of percussion pistols shown in the photos.

Right?

[Gunner Asch]

Its quite easy to make..assuming you have the right materials. And
know how to granulate it while wet.

Making it out of manure..or guano... adds a few steps to the process..

[Gunner Asch]

The only materials that really need refining and purification is the
saltpeter. Sulphur and charcoal are easy to do. If you live in an ag
state...look for a big assed heap of bright yellow powder near a
field..and go snag a couple 5 gallon buckets of it. Charcoal is easy
to find..bust it up with a hammer over and over again until its a
powder..or use your grain mill.

The saltpeter is the bitch..unless you can find a source ....chemical
supply houses, etc etc.

I have about 20 lbs of 2F and 3F powder in the magazine...so it will
be a fair amount of time before I have to make my own. Ive got a
pound or 2 of 4F for priming in flintlocks..though matchheads will
work in a pince..if you crush em fine enough. So will Bullseye pistol
powder if your frizzen sparks really good.

[Gunner Asch]

Of course..if you have ammo in calibers you dont have guns for...by
all means use it for trading stock. Or find a weapon to shoot it.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:cn5npc13te67asqf0...@4ax.com...

the pile is good for awhile, but what do you do when it's gone?

Charcoal is easy, but some types work a lot better than others, but during
that time it's a minor issue, the biggest is getting a powder that will go
boom when you want it to.

>
> The saltpeter is the bitch..unless you can find a source ....chemical
> supply houses, etc etc.

Manure piles, caves, outhouses. compost heaps....

Unless you can find a cave which has large encrustations then generally the
amount you're going to be able to recover will be small and pretty labor
intensive.

[Scout]

"Gunner Asch" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:mk5npcpvbsonaans1...@4ax.com...

>>now until you can do it right.
>
> Its quite easy to make..assuming you have the right materials. And
> know how to granulate it while wet.
>
> Making it out of manure..or guano... adds a few steps to the process..

Personally I suspect the MB guys purposely did it so it wouldn't work, if
only to keep people for trying it themselves, because if you don't know what
you're doing and do it exactly right.......you're likely to blow up
yourself, your house and anything else in the area.

Of course, on the other hand, I've seen them pull some real boners and
totally invalidate the what they were attempting to verify/refute.

[Scout]

"rbowman" <bow...@montana.com> wrote in message
news:f01hf2...@mid.individual.net...

Shouldn't be a problem, just check with the guy at the ABC store and tell
them you want to buy a case of JM miniatures