Common sense failure

[Howard Beel]

Does anyone realy buy a protection plan for washers?



https://www.ebay.com/itm/500-pcs-Large-Diameter-Fender-Washers-1-4-x-1-1-2-OD-Zinc-Plated/192285067740?hash=item2cc51549dc:g:G30AAOSw7pNZm7ZJ

If we can't repair it, we'll reimburse the retail value of your
purchase




Best Regards
Tom.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[Ignoramus20830]

On 2018-03-04, Howard Beel <H...@network.com> wrote:
> Does anyone realy buy a protection plan for washers?
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/500-pcs-Large-Diameter-Fender-Washers-1-4-x-1-1-2-OD-Zinc-Plated/192285067740?hash=item2cc51549dc:g:G30AAOSw7pNZm7ZJ
>
> If we can't repair it, we'll reimburse the retail value of your
> purchase

Assurant is a complete scam, a worthless guarantee.

i

[Howard Beel]

"Ignoramus20830" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20830.invalid> wrote in message
news:y82dnSc2T5o8wgbH...@giganews.com...

All purchase protection plans are a scam. Never bought one
never will.

[Bill]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 19:10:34 -0800, Howard Beel wrote:

> All purchase protection plans are a scam. Never bought one
> never will.
>
> Best Regards
> Tom.

I bought one once: an extended warranty from the car dealer (new
vehicle) back in '91. Iirc, I shelled out about $2k for it. - I won't
ever buy another extended warranty.

In my case, this car was seen on schedule for it's maintenance,
including it's final maintenance visit still "under warranty". I recall
asking them very carefully if they saw any developing problems. Lo and
behold, 2-3 weeks later I take it in for some minor issue, and then
they tell me that a whole bunch of oil seals are going bad and should be
replaced. Another almost $2k to do the work.

I didn't have any way to prove that they had ignored these seals until
the warranty expired - but I was pretty confident that's exactly what
happened.

--
Email address is a Spam trap.

[Jon Elson]

This is the kind of stuff that deserves a letter to the state attorney
general, at the very least. You can also file a BBB complaint.


On the other hand, a minor oil seal leak is likely NOT covered under the
factory warranty. We have a 1999 Toyota van that has a minor oil seal leak
in the transmission. We had it checked out at 86K miles or something, and
they told us the best thing to do was just keep the trans fluid topped up,
and we'd get another 10K miles out of it, then junk it as it wasn't worth
rebuilding the trans. WELL, it now has over 250K miles, and is STILL
going! Yes, we have to put some trans fluid in about 4 times a YEAR, and
all the door handles and stuff are falling off. But, the engine and trans
are still fine.

Jon

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 19:10:34 -0800, "Howard Beel" <H...@network.com>
wrote:

>
>"Ignoramus20830" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.20830.invalid> wrote in message
>news:y82dnSc2T5o8wgbH...@giganews.com...
>> On 2018-03-04, Howard Beel <H...@network.com> wrote:
>>> Does anyone realy buy a protection plan for washers?
>>>
>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/500-pcs-Large-Diameter-Fender-Washers-1-4-x-1-1-2-OD-Zinc-Plated/192285067740?hash=item2cc51549dc:g:G30AAOSw7pNZm7ZJ

<snort> If I were forced to buy a new Maytag, I'd get the long plan,
though...if they could prove that they'd actually paid-out on many
claims.

>>> If we can't repair it, we'll reimburse the retail value of your
>>> purchase
>>
>> Assurant is a complete scam, a worthless guarantee.

It's a salesman's upsell bonus plan. Nothing more.

>All purchase protection plans are a scam. Never bought one
>never will.

I bought a couple from Harbor Freight since I hadn't seen a history of
the item. The 1-man auger leaks a bit from the bottom transmission
seal, but I just top it off before use. I've never used the plans.
The thing digs like a dream, though. I hate clamshell diggers with a
passion.

--
Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds
are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her
tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the
existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of
the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
-- Thomas Jefferson

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 04 Mar 2018 20:32:32 -0600, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
wrote:

>Bill wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 19:10:34 -0800, Howard Beel wrote:
>>
>>> All purchase protection plans are a scam. Never bought one
>>> never will.
>>>
>>> Best Regards
>>> Tom.
>>
>> I bought one once: an extended warranty from the car dealer (new
>> vehicle) back in '91. Iirc, I shelled out about $2k for it. - I won't
>> ever buy another extended warranty.
>>
>> In my case, this car was seen on schedule for it's maintenance,
>> including it's final maintenance visit still "under warranty". I recall
>> asking them very carefully if they saw any developing problems. Lo and
>> behold, 2-3 weeks later I take it in for some minor issue, and then
>> they tell me that a whole bunch of oil seals are going bad and should be
>> replaced. Another almost $2k to do the work.
>>
>> I didn't have any way to prove that they had ignored these seals until
>> the warranty expired - but I was pretty confident that's exactly what
>> happened.
>>
>This is the kind of stuff that deserves a letter to the state attorney
>general, at the very least. You can also file a BBB complaint.

Absolutely. The few bad ones gave all auto mechanics bad names, even
though it was the dealershits who were the actual culprits.

>On the other hand, a minor oil seal leak is likely NOT covered under the
>factory warranty. We have a 1999 Toyota van that has a minor oil seal leak
>in the transmission. We had it checked out at 86K miles or something, and
>they told us the best thing to do was just keep the trans fluid topped up,
>and we'd get another 10K miles out of it, then junk it as it wasn't worth
>rebuilding the trans. WELL, it now has over 250K miles, and is STILL
>going! Yes, we have to put some trans fluid in about 4 times a YEAR, and

Good deal.

>all the door handles and stuff are falling off.

Step right up, sir. Let me introduce you to the amazing maintenance
tools called wrenches and screwdrivers.

[Bill]

I agree.

I could/should have pursued things; but back then (~ 1993) was
preoccupied with my own work and just didn't have time to put into any
of it.

I did learn my lesson. ;-)

[amdx]

FWIW, If the handles are anything like the Camry, they now sell
replacements at Discount Auto.
I repaired several inside handles by drilling lengthwise through both
pieces, while aligned, and installing a metal pin with epoxy.
For the outside handles I drilled and tapped to install two 6/32
flathead screws to hold the broken handle in place.
When I did this, the handles were expensive at the Toyota dealer.
And, this is easier than taking the door apart.
But, I'm experienced at these pin type jobs, even with small parts
where I use 0.025" rod for the pin. 15 years ago I broke the crank
handle on my radial arm saw. I pinned it and it's still going strong.
Now I'm more careful going through the doorway with it, that's how I
broke it.
Mikek

[Gerry]

I ran into that with a 1990 Lumina van; after replaceing both outside
fron door handles for something like $18 each, I went to pick up
another drivers door handle. When the clerk said "that'll be $85.00
plus tax" I said "forget it, I'll fix the old one" his reply was "lots
of luck, Its a die casting". Ten minutes with a drill and 5M tap and
it was MUCH BETTER than new!

[Neon John]

On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 19:10:34 -0800, "Howard Beel" <H...@network.com>
wrote:

>All purchase protection plans are a scam. Never bought one
>never will.

Really?

A few years I purchased a Unicomp Ultra Classic Modem M keyboard. This
is a clone of IBM's model M, the one with the clicky bending spring
keys. Cost was around $150 and the 5 year extended warranty was less
than $2.

A couple of weeks ago I spilled a cup of coffee on the keyboard. I'm
typing on a genuine IBM Model M keyboard but it doesn't have F11 and
F12 so I don't use it unless I have to. BTW, I bought it from a
computer salvage store in the late 80s so it's about 38 years old.

I've spilled coffee on this keyboard a couple of times. Both times I
followed recommended protocol and ran it through the dishwasher
without any soap, then dried it for several day in a warm box. Viola!
It works again.

I tried the dishwasher trick on the Unicomp but this time the keyboard
quit working. So I called in a warranty claim. My new keyboard will
be at the post office tomorrow morning. Pretty good return on $2.

I recently purchased a new flat-top stove and an upright refrigerator
from Lowe's. Our absolutely horrible utility power caused me to a)
pick an all-mechanical refrigerator, b) purchase the stove with the
fewest number of electronics. and c) After taking the back off the
candidate range while in the store and seeing the hideously bad PCB
and the tiny power relays being asked to switch up to 4 kW, I
immediately ponied up the $20 for each appliance's warranty.

That was in January. A couple of weeks ago the ice-maker in the
reefer broke. The horrible design caused the eject mechanism to strip
its cheap plastic gears.

So I gave Lowe's a call. Two weeks later a technician showed up to
install a -a improved ice maker. The tech gave me a copy of the
receipt that he printed on a handheld printer. $391.15. I'd say that
was $20 well spent. And given the shoddy design of the ice ejector, I
fully expect to replace the ice maker more than once during the
warranty term.

Wifey likes the new stove but I surely miss the old one. My Dad
purchased it in 1955 to celebrate my birth. In it's 63 year life in
our houses, it had one burner and one broiling element replaced. The
element smoked when Mom touched the (open coils) element with a metal
pan and shorted the element to ground. All the controls lasted the
stove's entire life. The oven would pre-heat about 3X the new one
because the old oven turned on both elements during preheat.
Buuuuutttt.... Wifey got her flat-top and self-cleaning oven so all
is well :-)

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.tnduction.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

[James Waldby]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:39:22 -0400, Neon John wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 19:10:34 -0800, "Howard Beel" <H...@network.com> wrote:
>>All purchase protection plans are a scam. Never bought one never will.
>
> Really?

...

> I recently purchased a new flat-top stove and an upright refrigerator
> from Lowe's. Our absolutely horrible utility power caused me to a) pick
> an all-mechanical refrigerator, b) purchase the stove with the fewest
> number of electronics. and c) After taking the back off the candidate
> range while in the store and seeing the hideously bad PCB and the tiny
> power relays being asked to switch up to 4 kW, I immediately ponied up
> the $20 for each appliance's warranty.

...

> Wifey likes the new stove but I surely miss the old one.

> [... It] would pre-heat about 3X the new one

> because the old oven turned on both elements during preheat.

> ... Wifey got her flat-top and self-cleaning oven so all is
> well :-)

...

Before using the self-cleaning feature, do a few web searches for
whatever model of stove it is, and check out whether that model
survives self-cleaning ok. Some models will blow the thermal overload
fuse (a $10-$40 part) during a self-cleaning cycle, which shuts down
the oven, so find out if your model has that problem. See eg
https://fixappliances.ca/4-reasons-stop-using-self-cleaning-oven-feature/

--
jiw

[Larry Jaques]

My buddy used to work for Searz as an appliance repairman and he tells
everyone he knows to never, ever use the self-cleaning feature. If it
doesn't kill the unit outright, it will severely limit the useful life
of the stove. And he couldn't supply a recommendation for a brand
which would not be damaged.

--
A sound mind in a sound body is a short but full
description of a happy state in this world.
--John Locke

[Clare Snyder]

There is a minimum clearance that needs to be maintained around the
oven when using the self clean feature that is NOT provided for in the
construction of most kitchens. I can't find my manual but remember
noting the range needs to be pulled out before running the self clean
cycle

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:39:22 -0400, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:

>Our absolutely horrible utility power caused me to a)
>pick an all-mechanical refrigerator, b) purchase the stove with the
>fewest number of electronics. and c) After taking the back off the
>candidate range while in the store and seeing the hideously bad PCB
>and the tiny power relays being asked to switch up to 4 kW, I
>immediately ponied up the $20 for each appliance's warranty.

Have you considered whole-house power conditioning, at the breaker
box, too?

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
news:0runadpem9vf3b3c8...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:39:22 -0400, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
>>Our absolutely horrible utility power caused me to a)
>>pick an all-mechanical refrigerator, b) purchase the stove with the
>>fewest number of electronics. and c) After taking the back off the
>>candidate range while in the store and seeing the hideously bad PCB
>>and the tiny power relays being asked to switch up to 4 kW, I
>>immediately ponied up the $20 for each appliance's warranty.
>
> Have you considered whole-house power conditioning, at the breaker
> box, too?

What have you done or would you add to protect yourself from brownouts
and blackouts?

My system is incomplete and enough of a chore to use that it's only
for emergency backup, although the solar powered freezer looks
promising. I ordered another charge/discharge meter for it, with
hopefully meaningful resolution at low currents.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744GQQR4/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

This one handles the APC1400's maximum DC input current but doesn't
measure its idle consumption or the solar charge well enough.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M5CWR2P/ref=twister_B06XWTRL2K?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

-jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:32:17 -0400, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

So they're a fire hazard, or they just get too hot from the Clean
cycle? Incidentally, I've never heard of a woman pulling her oven out
to clean it, or known a guy who has done so for his wife. Are you
going to break my cherry on this? <g>

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
news:0runadpem9vf3b3c8...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:39:22 -0400, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>
>>Our absolutely horrible utility power caused me to a)
>>pick an all-mechanical refrigerator, b) purchase the stove with the
>>fewest number of electronics. and c) After taking the back off the
>>candidate range while in the store and seeing the hideously bad PCB
>>and the tiny power relays being asked to switch up to 4 kW, I
>>immediately ponied up the $20 for each appliance's warranty.
>
> Have you considered whole-house power conditioning, at the breaker
> box, too?

Here is an interesting idea that converts a common industrial motor
drive into a UPS.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=134630

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 07:32:47 -0700, Larry Jaques

Well, it will get hot enough to discolor the finish on the cabinets
and I'm sure it's not good for the stove either. Ours gets pulled out
every year or so - only used the self clean feature once or twice in
20 years.

[Larry Jaques]

I'll check that out.

I wonder if he still has the (old) NEC code book online.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 08:47:52 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
>news:0runadpem9vf3b3c8...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:39:22 -0400, Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Our absolutely horrible utility power caused me to a)
>>>pick an all-mechanical refrigerator, b) purchase the stove with the
>>>fewest number of electronics. and c) After taking the back off the
>>>candidate range while in the store and seeing the hideously bad PCB
>>>and the tiny power relays being asked to switch up to 4 kW, I
>>>immediately ponied up the $20 for each appliance's warranty.
>>
>> Have you considered whole-house power conditioning, at the breaker
>> box, too?
>
>What have you done or would you add to protect yourself from brownouts
>and blackouts?

Brownouts: nothing for the home, UPS for the computer. I have a UPS
for the stereo/vcr/dvd/turntable as well, but not on the old CRT 32"
flat square Panasonic TV from 2002.

What have you found for brownouts?
https://is.gd/WDk43k These seem to be designed for fridges.
https://is.gd/Kl6pUF and these for the A/C.
Any experience here with these products, guys?


Blackouts: solar. The first 45w (HFT) system is for emergency
lighting, plus phone/kindle/fire/flashlight charging.

The 1080W of panels are initially for the water heater (900w@24v), but
if power stays out, I'll have to use to run the furnace, microwave,
water pot, and toaster oven. I pray the gas stays on for a long
while.

I need several more kW worth of panels and a better inverter, and to
invest in a solar well pump. I'm only short ten grand or so for
interim upgrades.

With an extra $20k, I could go with brown/blackout protection, up it
to 10kW solar w/ 120/240v pure sine inverter, build a larger RE-rated
battery bank, and grab a couple of the 50 or 60l 12/24v coolers like
your Alpicool.

>My system is incomplete and enough of a chore to use that it's only
>for emergency backup, although the solar powered freezer looks
>promising. I ordered another charge/discharge meter for it, with
>hopefully meaningful resolution at low currents.
>https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744GQQR4/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza
>
>This one handles the APC1400's maximum DC input current but doesn't
>measure its idle consumption or the solar charge well enough.
>https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M5CWR2P/ref=twister_B06XWTRL2K?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Since I haven't owned one, I don't know how well the data logging
works for the better solar charge controllers. But with a lot more
solar, smaller figures (single watts or parts thereof) won't be as
critical.

I take it that you don't want to pop the meter out. Yeah, with
everything plastic nowadays, repairs are being made harder to perform
without breaking the case or bezel of the item you're attempting to
repair.

Oh, I ordered one of those Yeeco meters yesterday. It should be handy
for everything but the water heater, a potential 37.5A draw.

[Larry Jaques]

Hmm, I'm seeing a thread on using DC into a VFD to run an AC motor in
a trolley at that link. I read all the posts and see DC-AC but don't
see UPS mentioned or pick up the concept of it anywhere in the text.
Nope, not in the previous or next thread, either. Are you -that- much
smarter than me, did you post the wrong link, or did I miss something?
<g>

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message

news:sjltad9psmu1qf6rn...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 08:47:52 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
>>news:0runadpem9vf3b3c8...@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 11:39:22 -0400, Neon John <n...@never.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Our absolutely horrible utility power caused me to a)
>>>>pick an all-mechanical refrigerator, b) purchase the stove with
>>>>the
>>>>fewest number of electronics. and c) After taking the back off the
>>>>candidate range while in the store and seeing the hideously bad
>>>>PCB
>>>>and the tiny power relays being asked to switch up to 4 kW, I
>>>>immediately ponied up the $20 for each appliance's warranty.
>>>
>>> Have you considered whole-house power conditioning, at the breaker
>>> box, too?
>>
>>What have you done or would you add to protect yourself from
>>brownouts
>>and blackouts?
>
> Brownouts: nothing for the home, UPS for the computer. I have a UPS
> for the stereo/vcr/dvd/turntable as well, but not on the old CRT 32"
> flat square Panasonic TV from 2002.
>
> What have you found for brownouts?

Although opposition to power grid improvement is strong here we
haven't yet reached the brownout stage, our outages are from storms or
traffic accidents.

My computers (=TVs) are all laptops with fairly decent batteries and
the APC1400 UPS can protect them while doing large video file backups,
as well as run the fridge ovenight. My homebrew UPS works for the
Alpicool freezer. This meter is due to arrive today and will give me
terminal screws to better arrange the junction of four wire pairs
that's currently skywired and taped.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744GQQR4/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

I also ordered USB breakout boards
https://www.amazon.com/Breakout-Board-2-54mm-Header-plated/dp/B076KJZJSY/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1521200805&sr=8-8&keywords=usb+breakout
and 18 + 22 AWG flexible Silicone wire to connect the meter shunt
bases to their displays more reliably.

> https://is.gd/WDk43k These seem to be designed for fridges.
> https://is.gd/Kl6pUF and these for the A/C.
> Any experience here with these products, guys?

They shut off the power during a brownout and wait 3 minutes for the
pressure to drop before turning it back on.

> ....

> With an extra $20k, I could go with brown/blackout protection, up it
> to 10kW solar w/ 120/240v pure sine inverter, build a larger
> RE-rated
> battery bank, and grab a couple of the 50 or 60l 12/24v coolers like
> your Alpicool.

The 20l Alpi fits my needs only because I've learned to live with a
45l fridge. I would have bought a larger one if Amazon offered it. It
does fit neatly in the back of the SUV beside the 12V outlet and holds
a typical shopping load.

> Since I haven't owned one, I don't know how well the data logging
> works for the better solar charge controllers. But with a lot more
> solar, smaller figures (single watts or parts thereof) won't be as
> critical.

The problem is that if a 100A meter is accurate to 1%, the Amp-hour
total it gives for the battery will be very uncertain for low charge
and discharge currents. I want to -know- that the battery has enough
charge left to last overnight.

Voltage isn't a reliable indicator when the battery is cycling. The
battery that has been running the Alpi since last evening reads 11.76V
On, 12.135V Off, and is still rising when the freezer cycles On again.
Some of that drop is in the temporary wiring and meter shunt.

> Oh, I ordered one of those Yeeco meters yesterday. It should be
> handy
> for everything but the water heater, a potential 37.5A draw.

The Yeeco 100V 15A meter isn't accurate to the last digit(s) but the
internal noise is low enough that it shows the rate of voltage droop
or recovery very smoothly, with no jitter. Current is noisier, which
could be due to the Alpi's switching supply. I can estimate how far
along the voltage is on the recovery curve by the time to rise 1
milliVolt. Now I need a stable, low noise variable current source to
calibrate my ammeters with the benchtop Flukes. I have a lot of older
tabbed 18650s that I need to sort by remaining capacity before
rebuilding batteries with them.

-jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message

news:uaeuadprm77u1klde...@4ax.com...

Batteries could supply the DC to run the VFD. Keeping them charged is
easy. The idea might be practical IF you happen onto a suitable VFD
for cheap and have enough batteries. I happened onto a repairable
1400VA pure sine UPS for free instead.

-jsw

[rangerssuck]

Here's another interesting idea: http://www.priups.com/ He uses a Prius along with an inverter to power his entire house.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:p8odsl$3m9$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
> news:sjltad9psmu1qf6rn...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 08:47:52 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
>> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
> The 20l Alpi fits my needs only because I've learned to live with a
> 45l fridge. I would have bought a larger one if Amazon offered it.
> It does fit neatly in the back of the SUV beside the 12V outlet and
> holds a typical shopping load.
>

The best part: it lets me keep ICE CREAM!

-jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:28:27 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Ours here is like that, too.

>My computers (=TVs) are all laptops with fairly decent batteries and
>the APC1400 UPS can protect them while doing large video file backups,
>as well as run the fridge ovenight. My homebrew UPS works for the
>Alpicool freezer. This meter is due to arrive today and will give me
>terminal screws to better arrange the junction of four wire pairs
>that's currently skywired and taped.
>https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0744GQQR4/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza
>
>I also ordered USB breakout boards
>https://www.amazon.com/Breakout-Board-2-54mm-Header-plated/dp/B076KJZJSY/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1521200805&sr=8-8&keywords=usb+breakout
>and 18 + 22 AWG flexible Silicone wire to connect the meter shunt
>bases to their displays more reliably.

I saw the female micro version of those and got some to use with
cables a while back. Ten for $0.77, delivered.

>> https://is.gd/WDk43k These seem to be designed for fridges.
>> https://is.gd/Kl6pUF and these for the A/C.
>> Any experience here with these products, guys?
>
>They shut off the power during a brownout and wait 3 minutes for the
>pressure to drop before turning it back on.

Yeah, it seems worth the price if it happens even once, plus they have
MOVs in there to neutralize some of the nasty spikes which are always
coming from the lousy power networks today.

>> With an extra $20k, I could go with brown/blackout protection, up it
>> to 10kW solar w/ 120/240v pure sine inverter, build a larger
>> RE-rated
>> battery bank, and grab a couple of the 50 or 60l 12/24v coolers like
>> your Alpicool.
>
>The 20l Alpi fits my needs only because I've learned to live with a
>45l fridge. I would have bought a larger one if Amazon offered it. It
>does fit neatly in the back of the SUV beside the 12V outlet and holds
>a typical shopping load.

Nice. P.S: What does the temperature (F) of paper burning have to do
with a fridge?

>> Since I haven't owned one, I don't know how well the data logging
>> works for the better solar charge controllers. But with a lot more
>> solar, smaller figures (single watts or parts thereof) won't be as
>> critical.
>
>The problem is that if a 100A meter is accurate to 1%, the Amp-hour
>total it gives for the battery will be very uncertain for low charge
>and discharge currents. I want to -know- that the battery has enough
>charge left to last overnight.

Yeah, that can be critical with refrigeration.

>Voltage isn't a reliable indicator when the battery is cycling. The
>battery that has been running the Alpi since last evening reads 11.76V
>On, 12.135V Off, and is still rising when the freezer cycles On again.
>Some of that drop is in the temporary wiring and meter shunt.

Yes, but all LA batteries show a volt or two drop even with small
loads, especially after charging. Knowing how your specific battery
is normally acting makes for happier times.

>> Oh, I ordered one of those Yeeco meters yesterday. It should be
>> handy
>> for everything but the water heater, a potential 37.5A draw.
>
>The Yeeco 100V 15A meter isn't accurate to the last digit(s) but the
>internal noise is low enough that it shows the rate of voltage droop
>or recovery very smoothly, with no jitter. Current is noisier, which
>could be due to the Alpi's switching supply. I can estimate how far
>along the voltage is on the recovery curve by the time to rise 1
>milliVolt. Now I need a stable, low noise variable current source to
>calibrate my ammeters with the benchtop Flukes. I have a lot of older
>tabbed 18650s that I need to sort by remaining capacity before
>rebuilding batteries with them.

Sheeeeeeit! The Yeeco just came in. Neither you nor Amazon mentioned
that this thing is the size of my thumb, not a business card like the
rest of them. I saw the pics side by side on Amazon and they were all
the same size, which is And the LCD is =maybe= 8pt type. I hadn't
noticed that the entire meter was only 50x26x21mm with a display 1/3
of that. Drat. Bifocal Mode=ON. I'm going to request that Amazon
and/or Yeeco adds that size info in the bullet points of that listing.
It was a real shock, even though that info was right there, about the
fourteenth line of type in the secondary description block.

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 15:58:20 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:p8odsl$3m9$1...@dont-email.me...
>> "Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
>> news:sjltad9psmu1qf6rn...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 08:47:52 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
>>> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>
>> The 20l Alpi fits my needs only because I've learned to live with a
>> 45l fridge. I would have bought a larger one if Amazon offered it.
>> It does fit neatly in the back of the SUV beside the 12V outlet and
>> holds a typical shopping load.
>>
>
>The best part: it lets me keep ICE CREAM!

Give me the Luxuries of life. I can live without the necessities.

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:44:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

You equate UPS with VFD? I guess that's what threw me. Yes, you can
turn some generators into motors, too, but they're not as efficient,
etc. But I think of UPSes as battery chargers which turn into AC
power sources via those batteries when the AC fails, and don't see the
reciprocity you do, I guess.

>Keeping them charged is
>easy. The idea might be practical IF you happen onto a suitable VFD
>for cheap and have enough batteries.

Most posters on that thread seemed to steer him into a brushless DC
motor. That's what my eBike uses. 800w 3-phase DC controller and
BDCM.

>I happened onto a repairable
>1400VA pure sine UPS for free instead.

Yup.

[Clare Snyder]

Basically the same thing as a 3 phase VFD.
The "brushless DC motor" you have on your bike is "basically" a 3
phase motor.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message

news:vfq0bdtqh634bi8c8...@4ax.com...

Converting DC to sinusoidal AC is the only difficult function of a
UPS. I just assembled a DC UPS from a 12V battery, power supply, solar
controller and a single diode. I tested it on a partly cloudy day and
could see the power supply's AC input wattage drop as solar current
increased. With enough sun the power supply's KAW reading fell to
0.0W. In the evening the PS assumed the full load, and when I
unplugged it to simulate an outage the freezer ran off the fully
charged battery.

> Most posters on that thread seemed to steer him into a brushless DC
> motor. That's what my eBike uses. 800w 3-phase DC controller and
> BDCM.

The Alpi uses one that draws a constant 30W as the DC input voltage
rises or falls. I learned how brushless DC motors work at Segway, and
the math at Mitre.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-phase_and_quadrature_components

-jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:43:33 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

So, initially, it's working as planned? Great.

>> Most posters on that thread seemed to steer him into a brushless DC
>> motor. That's what my eBike uses. 800w 3-phase DC controller and
>> BDCM.
>
>The Alpi uses one that draws a constant 30W as the DC input voltage
>rises or falls. I learned how brushless DC motors work at Segway, and
>the math at Mitre.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-phase_and_quadrature_components

30w and it works about 8x better than a 40w Peltier block. Nice.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message

news:a366bd9mn20amm4fe...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:43:33 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

>>...I just assembled a DC UPS from a 12V battery, power supply, solar

>>controller and a single diode. I tested it on a partly cloudy day
>>and
>>could see the power supply's AC input wattage drop as solar current
>>increased. With enough sun the power supply's KAW reading fell to
>>0.0W. In the evening the PS assumed the full load, and when I
>>unplugged it to simulate an outage the freezer ran off the fully
>>charged battery.
>
> So, initially, it's working as planned? Great.

The remaining question is how it handles the return of grid AC when
the battery is nearly discharged. The maximum charging current depends
on circuit resistance and the battery's internal impedance when deeply
discharged, which I don't want to test any more than necessary. The
solution will have to wait until after my taxes are done.

The storm that hit Ed passed south of here. We are nearing the end of
ice storm power outage danger so I can put this project on hold until
hurricane season. The Alpi more than doubles the battery run time
before needing a solar or generator recharge.

>>> Most posters on that thread seemed to steer him into a brushless
>>> DC
>>> motor. That's what my eBike uses. 800w 3-phase DC controller and
>>> BDCM.
>>
>>The Alpi uses one that draws a constant 30W as the DC input voltage
>>rises or falls. I learned how brushless DC motors work at Segway,
>>and
>>the math at Mitre.
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-phase_and_quadrature_components
>
> 30w and it works about 8x better than a 40w Peltier block. Nice.

I've been using a Peltier cooler for grocery shopping. It's no answer
for power outages because it draws down a battery faster than the
fridge plus APC1400. The Alpi keeps ice cream at around 5F where it's
scoopable.

I need to find the safe temperature setting to store frozen food a
maximum of two weeks. 0F is for "indefinitely" long storage.
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/ResourcesForYou/HealthEducators/UCM109315.pdf

-jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message

news:kfg0bdhrl9n3ltuej...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:28:27 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Oh, I ordered one of those Yeeco meters yesterday. It should be
>>> handy
>>> for everything but the water heater, a potential 37.5A draw.
>>
>>The Yeeco 100V 15A meter isn't accurate to the last digit(s) but the
>>internal noise is low enough that it shows the rate of voltage droop

>>or recovery very smoothly, with no jitter. ...

>
> Sheeeeeeit! The Yeeco just came in. Neither you nor Amazon
> mentioned
> that this thing is the size of my thumb, not a business card like
> the
> rest of them. I saw the pics side by side on Amazon and they were
> all
> the same size, which is And the LCD is =maybe= 8pt type. I hadn't
> noticed that the entire meter was only 50x26x21mm with a display 1/3
> of that. Drat. Bifocal Mode=ON. I'm going to request that Amazon
> and/or Yeeco adds that size info in the bullet points of that
> listing.
> It was a real shock, even though that info was right there, about
> the
> fourteenth line of type in the secondary description block.

I'm very nearsighted. Sorry bout that.

The Yeeco meter I received tracks my 5-1/2 digit Fluke 8800 within
15mV from 3V to 28V. The error is -5mV at 3.0V, -10 to -15mV from 10V
to 20V, and 0mV at 28V.

It matches my Fluke 8600 to 4mA at 1A and 2mA at 2A, after correcting
for its internal consumption of 6.1 to 6.5mA. I can't measure as
accurately above 2A but it appears to be within 1% up to 15A. I
ordered a second one since the 90V 20A charge/discharge meter I
received seems faulty, so I'll measure the Amp-hours into and out of
the battery separately and compare totals.

I've been stocking up on meters etc in anticipation of a trade dispute
with China. Hopefully I have enough now.

-jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 08:05:48 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
>news:a366bd9mn20amm4fe...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:43:33 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
>> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>...I just assembled a DC UPS from a 12V battery, power supply, solar
>>>controller and a single diode. I tested it on a partly cloudy day
>>>and
>>>could see the power supply's AC input wattage drop as solar current
>>>increased. With enough sun the power supply's KAW reading fell to
>>>0.0W. In the evening the PS assumed the full load, and when I
>>>unplugged it to simulate an outage the freezer ran off the fully
>>>charged battery.
>>
>> So, initially, it's working as planned? Great.
>
>The remaining question is how it handles the return of grid AC when
>the battery is nearly discharged. The maximum charging current depends
>on circuit resistance and the battery's internal impedance when deeply
>discharged, which I don't want to test any more than necessary. The
>solution will have to wait until after my taxes are done.

I'm familiar with that concept.

>The storm that hit Ed passed south of here. We are nearing the end of
>ice storm power outage danger so I can put this project on hold until
>hurricane season. The Alpi more than doubles the battery run time
>before needing a solar or generator recharge.

Nice. Gee, you guys have all the weather. Me? I love the Left
Coast, thanks.

>>>> Most posters on that thread seemed to steer him into a brushless
>>>> DC
>>>> motor. That's what my eBike uses. 800w 3-phase DC controller and
>>>> BDCM.
>>>
>>>The Alpi uses one that draws a constant 30W as the DC input voltage
>>>rises or falls. I learned how brushless DC motors work at Segway,
>>>and
>>>the math at Mitre.
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-phase_and_quadrature_components
>>
>> 30w and it works about 8x better than a 40w Peltier block. Nice.
>
>I've been using a Peltier cooler for grocery shopping. It's no answer
>for power outages because it draws down a battery faster than the
>fridge plus APC1400. The Alpi keeps ice cream at around 5F where it's
>scoopable.
>
>I need to find the safe temperature setting to store frozen food a
>maximum of two weeks. 0F is for "indefinitely" long storage.
>https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/ResourcesForYou/HealthEducators/UCM109315.pdf

I like zero. 30F might do it for short periods, though, but why risk
it? 32F slows the deterioration to a minimum, zero almost stops it.
I've had vacuum sealed burger and steaks in the 0-5F freezer for
several years and they were fine after thawing. Ditto meat frozen
with water surrounding it to prevent freezer burn. Send an email to
Alpicool and see if they can translate it into what you're looking
for. G'luck.

--
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined
and that we can do nothing to change it look before they cross
the road." --Steven Hawking

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 20:22:26 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

That explains your not noticing the physical size difference. ;)

>The Yeeco meter I received tracks my 5-1/2 digit Fluke 8800 within
>15mV from 3V to 28V. The error is -5mV at 3.0V, -10 to -15mV from 10V
>to 20V, and 0mV at 28V.

Not shabby at all.

>It matches my Fluke 8600 to 4mA at 1A and 2mA at 2A, after correcting
>for its internal consumption of 6.1 to 6.5mA. I can't measure as
>accurately above 2A but it appears to be within 1% up to 15A. I
>ordered a second one since the 90V 20A charge/discharge meter I
>received seems faulty, so I'll measure the Amp-hours into and out of
>the battery separately and compare totals.
>
>I've been stocking up on meters etc in anticipation of a trade dispute
>with China. Hopefully I have enough now.

Yeah, I hear that. Wish I could afford 6kW more solar panels,
controller, and inverter right now.