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Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 14, 2009, 8:10:44 PM11/14/09
to
"The Kid" came out today to help with my new toy, a .308 semi auto rifle.
DPMS LR308 for those that know their rifle models. He brought his Glock 9MM
and I also got the Mini-14 (.223 semi auto) out too.

We spent more than an hour sighting in the new gun on the bull bag. Its a
regular tack driver at 100 yards. Even better than my bolt action .270.

Every time we walked up close to check our shots. we'd each shoot a 1/2 clip
of glock 9MM. Used up 200 rounds. I kicked "the kid's" ass here. He needs
more practice. He'll be better than me next time - he's just had the gun a
week and never really shot a hand gun before.

Then for off hand rifle shooting. I'm very used to the mini-14 and held
about a six inch diameter on the target if I shot slowly. More like a foot
for rapid fire. "The kid" is considerably better than me on the mini-14.
Used up over 100 rounds.

We also shot the DPMS-308 off hand. I am just plain TERRBILE with this heavy
gun off hand. Any tips on learning to shoot a heavy rifle? I could tell I
quickly tired and couldn't make nice little tight aim circles to shoot on
the down stroke (my mini 14 method) We stopped after two boxes of ammo, its
a buck a shot.


All in all a very fun day. I haven't spent an entire day with my son for a
few years now.

Karl


Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 14, 2009, 9:30:12 PM11/14/09
to

Karl...when you are standing up and shooting..how are you...em...have
momma take a few pictures of your stance and how you hold the rifle and
Ill tell you what you are doing wrong. Feel free to leave your face off
if it makes you nervous..

gun...@lightspeed.net


Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone.
I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout"
Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls.
Keyton

Larry Jaques

unread,
Nov 14, 2009, 10:41:48 PM11/14/09
to
On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:10:44 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
<karltown...@embarqmail.com> scrawled the following:

>"The Kid" came out today to help with my new toy, a .308 semi auto rifle.
>DPMS LR308 for those that know their rifle models. He brought his Glock 9MM
>and I also got the Mini-14 (.223 semi auto) out too.

The Panther looks like a sweetheart.


>We spent more than an hour sighting in the new gun on the bull bag. Its a
>regular tack driver at 100 yards. Even better than my bolt action .270.

Bull bag? Oh, we have standard small sandbags at our range. I've used
them with a terrycloth towel. I can see how the suede cover and the x
shape of a Browning bulls bag would be better.


>Every time we walked up close to check our shots. we'd each shoot a 1/2 clip
>of glock 9MM. Used up 200 rounds. I kicked "the kid's" ass here. He needs
>more practice. He'll be better than me next time - he's just had the gun a
>week and never really shot a hand gun before.

Good, you both found your sweeter positions with different arms.


>Then for off hand rifle shooting. I'm very used to the mini-14 and held
>about a six inch diameter on the target if I shot slowly. More like a foot
>for rapid fire. "The kid" is considerably better than me on the mini-14.
>Used up over 100 rounds.
>
>We also shot the DPMS-308 off hand. I am just plain TERRBILE with this heavy
>gun off hand. Any tips on learning to shoot a heavy rifle?

Find a rest, any rest. Short of that, build up your upper body and
practice with it daily for 6 months. Cha CHING!


>I could tell I
>quickly tired and couldn't make nice little tight aim circles to shoot on
>the down stroke (my mini 14 method) We stopped after two boxes of ammo, its
>a buck a shot.

Ouch!


>All in all a very fun day. I haven't spent an entire day with my son for a
>few years now.

That's great, Karl. Congrats.

--
When we are planning for posterity,
we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary.
-- Thomas Paine

Don Foreman

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Nov 15, 2009, 12:48:46 AM11/15/09
to

Go to
http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?store=apc&product_name=Shooting+Sticks

Scroll down to the Vanguard Bipod 2. This particular one has a very
wide range of heights suitable for positions from sitting to offhand.
The legs are like on a tripod with cam locks that are quick to adjust.
It's quite surprising how much a bipod can help. Fitch punched a
groundhog right thru the boiler room at 170 yards shooting offhand
with one of these. Said GH was DRT (dead right there), dropped in
place. The bipod weighs about 1 lb.

Ammo: once-fired .308 brass is about 20 cents ea if/when you can find
it. I hope you kept your brass from today.

Primer, about 3 cents recently in St. Cloud
Powder, about 20 cents worth
Bullet, about 10 cents for Meister lead, 20 to 30 cents for FMJ e.g.
Nosler, Hornady, etc

Total per round, about 60 cents plus or minus for first lot, about 40
cents to reload brass you already have. New Winchester brass is about
40 cents ea in lots of 50 or about 34 cents ea in lots of 500,
currently in stock at MidwayUSA. Remington brass is cheaper but it
doesn't last as long.

Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 5:19:39 AM11/15/09
to

> Karl...when you are standing up and shooting..how are you...em...have
> momma take a few pictures of your stance and how you hold the rifle and
> Ill tell you what you are doing wrong. Feel free to leave your face off
> if it makes you nervous..

Thanks for the kind offer. I'll get you some pics tommorrow.

Karl


Gunner Asch

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Nov 15, 2009, 6:02:19 AM11/15/09
to
On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:41:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:10:44 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
><karltown...@embarqmail.com> scrawled the following:
>
>>"The Kid" came out today to help with my new toy, a .308 semi auto rifle.
>>DPMS LR308 for those that know their rifle models. He brought his Glock 9MM
>>and I also got the Mini-14 (.223 semi auto) out too.
>
>The Panther looks like a sweetheart.
>
>
>>We spent more than an hour sighting in the new gun on the bull bag. Its a
>>regular tack driver at 100 yards. Even better than my bolt action .270.
>
>Bull bag? Oh, we have standard small sandbags at our range. I've used
>them with a terrycloth towel. I can see how the suede cover and the x
>shape of a Browning bulls bag would be better.
>

I use standard old blue jean pants legs filled with clean sandbox sand.

Sew up one end, sew up all but a smidgen of the other end and fill with
a funnel, then hand stitch the last little bit.

A 50lb bag of sandbox sand makes a shitload of sandbags, all different
shapes and sizes.

Buerste

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Nov 15, 2009, 7:09:42 AM11/15/09
to

"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:mqnvf5hcf78v30ife...@4ax.com...

> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:41:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
> <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:10:44 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
>><karltown...@embarqmail.com> scrawled the following:
>>
>>>"The Kid" came out today to help with my new toy, a .308 semi auto rifle.
>>>DPMS LR308 for those that know their rifle models. He brought his Glock
>>>9MM
>>>and I also got the Mini-14 (.223 semi auto) out too.
>>
>>The Panther looks like a sweetheart.
>>
>>
>>>We spent more than an hour sighting in the new gun on the bull bag. Its a
>>>regular tack driver at 100 yards. Even better than my bolt action .270.
>>
>>Bull bag? Oh, we have standard small sandbags at our range. I've used
>>them with a terrycloth towel. I can see how the suede cover and the x
>>shape of a Browning bulls bag would be better.
>>
> I use standard old blue jean pants legs filled with clean sandbox sand.
>
> Sew up one end, sew up all but a smidgen of the other end and fill with
> a funnel, then hand stitch the last little bit.
>
> A 50lb bag of sandbox sand makes a shitload of sandbags, all different
> shapes and sizes.
>
>
> Gunner
>

I like the way you say "Clean Sandbox Sand", spoken like a man that has
cats!


Buerste

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Nov 15, 2009, 7:14:21 AM11/15/09
to

"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:4affd593$0$65829$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...

If you're going to reload, get me a mold and I make some bullets for you.


Karl Townsend

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Nov 15, 2009, 8:46:26 AM11/15/09
to

> If you're going to reload, get me a mold and I make some bullets for you.

You got yourself a deal. Email me exactly what you want.
karltownsend<AT>embarqmail.com


Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 9:01:42 AM11/15/09
to
...

> Total per round, about 60 cents plus or minus for first lot, about 40
> cents to reload brass you already have. New Winchester brass is about
> 40 cents ea in lots of 50 or about 34 cents ea in lots of 500,
> currently in stock at MidwayUSA. Remington brass is cheaper but it
> doesn't last as long.

I'm gittin in the reload bidness. I can see I need serious practice time to
master this shooter. I just ordered a Dillon 550 press. And "the kid"
offered to do the work.


Karl


Buerste

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Nov 15, 2009, 9:11:02 AM11/15/09
to

"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b00060a$0$65862$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...

>
>> If you're going to reload, get me a mold and I make some bullets for you.
>
> You got yourself a deal. Email me exactly what you want.
> karltownsend<AT>embarqmail.com
>

I don't have a .308 so I know nothing about loads and projectiles. Decide
on those, Gunner might even have a mold for what you want. Lee makes a
bunch for less that $20. Read-up on lead bullets with/without gas checks
for a suitable load. I'm only starting into molding again after 30 years.
I'll be doing .38, 9mm and .45 pistol bullets.


Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 9:33:58 AM11/15/09
to

> I don't have a .308 so I know nothing about loads and projectiles. Decide
> on those, Gunner might even have a mold for what you want. Lee makes a
> bunch for less that $20. Read-up on lead bullets with/without gas checks
> for a suitable load. I'm only starting into molding again after 30 years.
> I'll be doing .38, 9mm and .45 pistol bullets.

My next sleepless night (been happening often lately), I'll surf the web to
see what i can learn. Gunner, feel free to chime in here.

karl


Gunner Asch

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Nov 15, 2009, 10:07:14 AM11/15/09
to
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:09:42 -0500, "Buerste" <bue...@wowway.com>
wrote:

Humm...kitty litter works too..but if you get it wet...it really makes
shooting bags get heavy...really really really heavy.

<G>

So No Silicone Playground Sand is the best. Though I had a friend that
made em up from dried beans. once......Worked pretty good until he put
em away after getting caught in a rain burst..and a week later the
damned things broke through the canvas and started sprouting. It was
rather neat to see.

He wasnt amused..but he never did have much of a sense of humor....

<VBG>

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 10:10:17 AM11/15/09
to
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:11:02 -0500, "Buerste" <bue...@wowway.com>
wrote:

You really..really really dont want to use cast bullets in a gas
operated firearm. They are so light pressure wise that they wont cycle
the action (single shot, manual reload with the charging handle) and the
bullet grease and lead tends to foul the gas operating system in less
than 50 rds. It really doesnt hurt anything..but it requires a fair
amount of cleaning and muttering.

Ive shot a fair amount of them out of an 8mm FN-49..but with that arm
you can turn off the gas system.

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 10:12:26 AM11/15/09
to

What do you need to know?

You dont need gas checks for rounds under 1600 fps. So most handguns
really dont require gas checks. Shrug

Ive got a fair amount of loading data in my files...about 25 notebooks
full actually....

Someday Ill put them into a computer...shrug

Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 10:17:12 AM11/15/09
to

> I don't have a .308 so I know nothing about loads and projectiles. Decide
> on those, Gunner might even have a mold for what you want. Lee makes a
> bunch for less that $20. Read-up on lead bullets with/without gas checks
> for a suitable load. I'm only starting into molding again after 30 years.
> I'll be doing .38, 9mm and .45 pistol bullets.

Say, you seem to be a bullet expert. Any reason you can't turn yer own FMJ
on a lathe? What exact material? I got a CHNC that hasn't been run for three
months now. It will hold 2 tenths all day long. They must need plating after
turning. That's Don Forman's expertise.

Karl

Gunner Asch

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Nov 15, 2009, 10:20:04 AM11/15/09
to

After the first of the year component prices should go down...probably
by Febuary or March they should be within 10% of prices a year ago.

There are sources on the net..or in Shotgun News for bullets for the
308. The pulled 148gr slugs are often a decent deal..and Accurate Arms
makes powder that works fine in the case..and cost about 25-50% less
than other brands.

http://www.allthatisguns.com/classified/clcatsearch.php?q=reload&Submit=Search

http://www.hi-techammo.com/ (check down at the .30 Caliber
offerings)

and so forth

Buerste

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 10:33:46 AM11/15/09
to

"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b001b50$0$65830$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...

I'm no expert by any means! It seems the more I learn, the less I know!
Gunner woud be my go-to about loads and projectiles and advised me on my
molds for pistol bullets and appropriate starting loads. I forgot you are
semi-auto and that changes things.


Gunner Asch

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Nov 15, 2009, 10:33:57 AM11/15/09
to

Actually..they dont need plating at all. You can turn them from copper,
bronze and other similar alloys. Even brass. Though with
brass...velocities have to be kept pretty low.

Loading data is a bit scarce..but there is some out there. Solids are
often used for critters like Cape Horn Buffalo and so forth.

I should mention that stopping those bullets can be a real
issue......things like trees, buildings, motorvehicles etc tend to not
slow them down a hell of a lot.

A buddy of mine was CNC turning 50 BMG bullets for a secret government
entity..and they were winning shooting matches with great regularity. As
I recall..3" groups at 1000 yards was fairly common.

Buerste

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Nov 15, 2009, 10:37:59 AM11/15/09
to

"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:g360g5h582si7sg9n...@4ax.com...

I have a few rice-socks that I throw in the microwave and use for heating
pads on sore muscles. Rice won't sprout and is a lot lighter than sand.


Karl Townsend

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Nov 15, 2009, 10:44:13 AM11/15/09
to

>>>>Bull bag? Oh, we have standard small sandbags at our range. I've used
>>>>them with a terrycloth towel. I can see how the suede cover and the x
>>>>shape of a Browning bulls bag would be better.
>>>>
>>> I use standard old blue jean pants legs filled with clean sandbox sand.
>>>
>>> Sew up one end, sew up all but a smidgen of the other end and fill with
>>> a funnel, then hand stitch the last little bit.
>>>
>>> A 50lb bag of sandbox sand makes a shitload of sandbags, all different
>>> shapes and sizes.
>>>
>>>
>>> Gunner
>>>
>>
>>I like the way you say "Clean Sandbox Sand", spoken like a man that has
>>cats!
>>
> Humm...kitty litter works too..but if you get it wet...it really makes
> shooting bags get heavy...really really really heavy.
>
> <G>
>
> So No Silicone Playground Sand is the best. Though I had a friend that
> made em up from dried beans. once......Worked pretty good until he put
> em away after getting caught in a rain burst..and a week later the
> damned things broke through the canvas and started sprouting. It was
> rather neat to see.
>
> He wasnt amused..but he never did have much of a sense of humor....

Hmm. Time for me to fess up. I used a 50 lb. bag of tankage for my bull bag.
Tankage is the leftovers from butchering dried and ground. makes a great
deer repellant. Get it wet and you'll run for cover if you don't puke first.

Karl


Larry Jaques

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Nov 15, 2009, 11:14:48 AM11/15/09
to
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:02:19 -0800, the infamous Gunner Asch
<gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> scrawled the following:

>On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:41:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
><novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:10:44 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
>><karltown...@embarqmail.com> scrawled the following:
>>
>>>"The Kid" came out today to help with my new toy, a .308 semi auto rifle.
>>>DPMS LR308 for those that know their rifle models. He brought his Glock 9MM
>>>and I also got the Mini-14 (.223 semi auto) out too.
>>
>>The Panther looks like a sweetheart.
>>
>>
>>>We spent more than an hour sighting in the new gun on the bull bag. Its a
>>>regular tack driver at 100 yards. Even better than my bolt action .270.
>>
>>Bull bag? Oh, we have standard small sandbags at our range. I've used
>>them with a terrycloth towel. I can see how the suede cover and the x
>>shape of a Browning bulls bag would be better.
>>
>I use standard old blue jean pants legs filled with clean sandbox sand.
>
>Sew up one end, sew up all but a smidgen of the other end and fill with
>a funnel, then hand stitch the last little bit.
>
>A 50lb bag of sandbox sand makes a shitload of sandbags, all different
>shapes and sizes.

Bueno, bwana.

Q: have you ever tried the Browning Bulls bags, withe the X shape and
suede top? Do they work that much better?

Larry Jaques

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 11:17:37 AM11/15/09
to
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:09:42 -0500, the infamous "Buerste"
<bue...@wowway.com> scrawled the following:

>"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message

>> I use standard old blue jean pants legs filled with clean sandbox sand.
>


>I like the way you say "Clean Sandbox Sand", spoken like a man that has
>cats!

Yeah, that was VERY telling, wasn't it? And it's 1,xxx cats + 1xx
dogs, with just one Ex with him. ;)

Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 2:20:47 PM11/15/09
to

> There are sources on the net..or in Shotgun News for bullets for the
> 308. The pulled 148gr slugs are often a decent deal..and Accurate Arms
> makes powder that works fine in the case..and cost about 25-50% less
> than other brands.

Man, I got a lot to learn. I've already ordered some once used brass and 150
grain FMJ bullets. I see four powders offerred for 308
(2230,2460,2495,2520). Too much info for a clueless newbie, but I'd like to
reload .223 also with the same powder. Keep in mind I have no intention of
competing in shooting matches, just want quality servicable ammunition.
Would you go with 2520???

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A-2520%20--%20Powder%20info%20and%20description.pdf

Or maybe 2460???

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A-2460%20--%20Powder%20info%20and%20description.pdf

I didn't see prices. Should i just price compare?

Karl


BobH

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Nov 15, 2009, 4:53:17 PM11/15/09
to
Karl Townsend wrote:
> Man, I got a lot to learn. I've already ordered some once used brass and 150
> grain FMJ bullets. I see four powders offerred for 308
> (2230,2460,2495,2520). Too much info for a clueless newbie, but I'd like to
> reload .223 also with the same powder. Keep in mind I have no intention of
> competing in shooting matches, just want quality servicable ammunition.
> Would you go with 2520???
>
> http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A-2520%20--%20Powder%20info%20and%20description.pdf
>
> Or maybe 2460???
>
> http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A-2460%20--%20Powder%20info%20and%20description.pdf

You will be happy with the Dillon 550, I used one a lot in the 90's and
it is an excellent machine. Both of your powder choices are listed as
spherical or ball powders which is good. Ball powders always worked out
better for me in the 550 powder measure. I used BL-C2 for 223 and 30-06
with good results. The stick powders never seemed to behave well in the
Dillon powder measure for me.

I did not experiment around a lot with powders and loads. Once I
developed a load I liked, I stuck with it. I tried to minimize the
varieties of powder and components stocked. My objective was to load
rounds to shoot, not get into a pursuit of nirvanna and the "perfect" load.

A really useful tool to have is one of the go/no-go case gauges for each
caliber you load. I had a lot of feed problems with the 45 reloads until
I started size checking every case and discarding the out of spec ones.
Rifle brass can be trimmed and are worth it to do so. Pistol brass
just got tossed when it was out of spec.

Good Luck,
BobH

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 5:37:35 PM11/15/09
to

Ive got xx pounds of 2520 <G> And will be needing to buy another keg or
two in the next year or so

2460 is a good powder..but its for lighter bullets. As I often load
190grainers in the 06, etc etc...its a bit too fast for my personal
comfort. As long as you use it only in the .223 (5.56) and the 308,
you should be in good shape.

Find which ever is the best price at the moment and buy a pound of each,
try em in your particular weapons, and pick the one you like.

Btw..ball powders meter like water..every charge will be dead nuts to
the next.

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 5:38:22 PM11/15/09
to

True,,but some weight is good for sandbags for firearms usage.

Shrug

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 5:39:23 PM11/15/09
to

ROFLMAO! Thats cool! Neat Christmas presents for your friends too!

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 5:41:03 PM11/15/09
to
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:14:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:02:19 -0800, the infamous Gunner Asch
><gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> scrawled the following:
>
>>On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:41:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
>><novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 19:10:44 -0600, the infamous "Karl Townsend"
>>><karltown...@embarqmail.com> scrawled the following:
>>>
>>>>"The Kid" came out today to help with my new toy, a .308 semi auto rifle.
>>>>DPMS LR308 for those that know their rifle models. He brought his Glock 9MM
>>>>and I also got the Mini-14 (.223 semi auto) out too.
>>>
>>>The Panther looks like a sweetheart.
>>>
>>>
>>>>We spent more than an hour sighting in the new gun on the bull bag. Its a
>>>>regular tack driver at 100 yards. Even better than my bolt action .270.
>>>
>>>Bull bag? Oh, we have standard small sandbags at our range. I've used
>>>them with a terrycloth towel. I can see how the suede cover and the x
>>>shape of a Browning bulls bag would be better.
>>>
>>I use standard old blue jean pants legs filled with clean sandbox sand.
>>
>>Sew up one end, sew up all but a smidgen of the other end and fill with
>>a funnel, then hand stitch the last little bit.
>>
>>A 50lb bag of sandbox sand makes a shitload of sandbags, all different
>>shapes and sizes.
>
>Bueno, bwana.
>
>Q: have you ever tried the Browning Bulls bags, withe the X shape and
>suede top? Do they work that much better?

They work marvelously on shooting rests, clean bench tops and whatnot.

They are however..a bit expensive, so Ive never personally owned any.
Several of my friends have more money than good sense however and own
them. They are quite satisfied with them.

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 5:46:44 PM11/15/09
to
On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:17:37 -0800, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:09:42 -0500, the infamous "Buerste"
><bue...@wowway.com> scrawled the following:
>
>>"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
>
>>> I use standard old blue jean pants legs filled with clean sandbox sand.
>>
>>I like the way you say "Clean Sandbox Sand", spoken like a man that has
>>cats!
>
>Yeah, that was VERY telling, wasn't it? And it's 1,xxx cats + 1xx
>dogs, with just one Ex with him. ;)


Humm..I forget you guys actually have beaches and everything.

So go get some beach sand, clean out the condoms, bottle caps, wash it a
couple times to get the alge bloom out and then dry it and bag it.

Me...Ill go to the local dealer and get some mortor/playground sand
(washed white)

<G>

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 8:22:16 PM11/15/09
to

Good post!

Doug White

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 9:33:38 PM11/15/09
to
"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in
news:4aff54ed$0$65849$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com:

<snip>
> We also shot the DPMS-308 off hand. I am just plain TERRBILE with this
> heavy gun off hand. Any tips on learning to shoot a heavy rifle? I
> could tell I quickly tired and couldn't make nice little tight aim
> circles to shoot on the down stroke (my mini 14 method) We stopped
> after two boxes of ammo, its a buck a shot.

If you are shooting offhand at stationary targets, the secret is to use
your bones to hold up the rifle, not your muscles. A heavy rifle is very
stable and helps to soak up recoil as long as you can hold it up OK.

I'm sure there are web sites with good pictures, but the idea is to park
the elbow of your support arm on your hip bone, and then park the rifle on
your hand somewhere near the trigger guard. Every rifle & every shooter is
a little different. I like shooting my 308 bolt gun up on my finger tips,
with my thumb on the bottom of the trigger guard. Lots of folks park the
rifle on top of a closed fist. The DPMS 308 is perfect, because you can
use the bottom of the magazine as a palm rest. You'll want a leather glove
to avoid the sharp corners digging into your palm. Ideally, you want to
rest the bottom of the magazine on the heel of your hand. In order to get
the right elevation and balance the rifle, you may have to lean back a bit.

I rummaged through some photos of my team shooting in last spring's offhand
league. Here is a photo that shows the general idea. He's shooting a
custom .223 "spacegun" built up on an AR-15 platform.

http://users.rcn.com/gwhite/Misc/Offhand_sm.JPG

Doug White

Cydrome Leader

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 10:58:37 PM11/15/09
to

What are all the weird outfits?

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 15, 2009, 11:53:37 PM11/15/09
to
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:33:38 GMT, Doug White <gwh...@alum.mit.edu>
wrote:

Shooter #3 has far superior position.

Shrug

Pretty good post btw.

Though shooting an M16 clone by using the magazine as a rest does tend
to screw with critical recoil and "bedding" criteria.

Shrug again

Don Foreman

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 12:26:11 AM11/16/09
to

I've not loaded for .308 but AA2460 has delivered best performance by
a significant margin for both Fitch and I in our .223's.

AA2460 is a ball powder that should meter very consistently in your
550.

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 12:46:11 AM11/16/09
to

Shooting jackets.

When properly worn and adjusted..they strap portions of ones body in
rigid position. Shoulder padding also helps deaden recoil. Padding on
the elbows helps keep the elbows from being driven onto rocks in recoil
and the shiney spots on the left (and often right) arms is there to help
work with rifle slings.

The offhand round has little to do with most shooting jackets..but one
assumes they simply wont peel their jackets off to shoot standing up

Here are some various examples...

http://www.championshooters.com/coats.htm

http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/product.php?productid=16133&cat=249&page=1

http://www.bushmaster.com/images/BFI-N002-200.gif


http://www.creedmoorsports.com/store/images/P/JOSE%20HBCORDLEA%20225%20copy-01.jpg

Range examples...those coats in use..

http://www.smallbore.20m.com/smallbore_rifle/about_smallbore_rifle.html

http://www.pnghs.school.nz/jla/images/sports/sam%20stephenson.jpg

http://www.mrra.org/images/hipower/standing.jpg

http://idahosrpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/6.jpg

A good Starter Pack for competition...

http://www.arringtonaccuracy.com/images/equipt.gif


Range eye gear....

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/images/09_18_07_shooting_glasses3.jpg

The above of course is for standard range shooting matchs, both high and
low power.

The gear for other shooting sports is often quite different....

http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/Tactical_Response_Rifle_Chen_Lee_1.jpg

http://www.ccijax.com/action/images/uploads-2006/main/dedicated_pistol.JPG

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/ussa.jpg

http://cwlmiami.com/magpul/carbine2.jpg

http://nwtrainingconcepts.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/YAK81.264171453_std.jpg

http://www.ciaadvisors.us/images/swat_wall__yamam__391h.jpg

Don Foreman

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 12:56:42 AM11/16/09
to

I looked at some powders in QuickLoad v3.3. AA2460 and AA2520 will
certainly work in .308 but safe loads won't be as fast as factory ammo
with 150 gn bullets. A slower powder fits better.

Powders that look good for 150 gn FMJ in a shortish barrel are, in
decending order of muzzle velocity for safe max pressure:

Vihtavuori N550
IMR3031
IMR4895
Winchester 760
Winchester 748
Hodgdon H4350
Hodgdon BL-C2

A lot of shooters really like Varget. It's a ways down the Quickload
list for that caliber and bullet but still within 75 fps of the
fastest, and Varget is a very consistent powder which bodes well for
accuracy. It's also very versatile.

However, I think all of these are extruded stick powders. If you're
going to meter volumetrically with your Dillon 550 then AA2520, which
is a ball powder, may be your best choice for .308.

Don't worry about stocking different powders for .223 and .308. You'll
go thru powder fast enough and it's not that pricey. A pound of
powder will load about 140 rounds of .308.

My recommendation for you, with your Dillon 550 and volumetric powder
dispensing, would be:

AA2460 for .223
AA2520 for .308


Michael A. Terrell

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 12:56:49 AM11/16/09
to

Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 08:17:37 -0800, Larry Jaques
> <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:09:42 -0500, the infamous "Buerste"
> ><bue...@wowway.com> scrawled the following:
> >
> >>"Gunner Asch" <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in message
> >
> >>> I use standard old blue jean pants legs filled with clean sandbox sand.
> >>
> >>I like the way you say "Clean Sandbox Sand", spoken like a man that has
> >>cats!
> >
> >Yeah, that was VERY telling, wasn't it? And it's 1,xxx cats + 1xx
> >dogs, with just one Ex with him. ;)
>
> Humm..I forget you guys actually have beaches and everything.
>
> So go get some beach sand, clean out the condoms, bottle caps, wash it a
> couple times to get the alge bloom out and then dry it and bag it.
>
> Me...Ill go to the local dealer and get some mortor/playground sand
> (washed white)


In some parts of Florida you just go out in the back yard with a
shovel. :) Some company wanted to buy the 25 acres of old orange grove
I lived on to pump out the sugar sand. Their test bore showed it to be
clean enough that they wouldn't have to even wash it.


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 7:42:11 AM11/16/09
to

Good post.

I should mention that Bl-C2 is an extraordenaryly good powder for the
smaller cases..marvelous in 223, 22-250..up to 308. Ive shot many many
pounds of it. But..its got a rather narrow pressure range in most
loadings..all near full pressure.

It might be one of the best for both cartridges if one had to pick only
one. Varget is also good for both, and has a slightly wider band..but
is a bit slower for .308....humm...I think Id pick Varget over Blc2 if I
only had to use a single powder...come to think of it.


Btw..you guys may wish to print this out and post a copy on the wall of
your reloading shop....

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

Burn rates by brand/type of powder


Fastest to slowest...

Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 7:49:43 AM11/16/09
to
...

> My recommendation for you, with your Dillon 550 and volumetric powder
> dispensing, would be:
>
> AA2460 for .223
> AA2520 for .308

Thanks Don, I don't need to go any farther. I'll get some of each.

Karl


Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 8:01:12 AM11/16/09
to

"Doug White" <gwh...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns9CC4DB534DFBE...@69.16.186.50...

THANKS FOR THE TIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is the exact opposite of what I do. I hold my left arm straight out at
a right angle to my body and pull back to hold the rifle tight.

Gunner - I'll try this a couple days and then send you a pic to critique

Karl


Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 8:08:43 AM11/16/09
to


Some tid bits you Dillion owners may wish to review....

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-7818.html

Don Foreman

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 12:21:22 PM11/16/09
to
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:42:11 -0800, Gunner Asch
<gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

I've read, and it has been my experience, that the fastest load is not
usually the most accurate load in a given rifle. Varget is popular
because it is extremely consistent even with varying ambient temps. It
is a favorite of long-range benchrest shooters, especiallly the 6mm
guys. Varget is not the best powder in any of my rifles but it's
pretty good in all of them. I have about 20 powders on my shelf.

However, to get consistent performance from any extruded powder it's
necessary to carefully weigh every charge. Since you're going to
dispense volumetrically, a suitable ball powder is the clear choice.

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 12:44:03 PM11/16/09
to
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:21:22 -0600, Don Foreman
<dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:


"fastest load" as defined by burn rate or max pressures/exit velocity?

<G>

Don Foreman

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 3:13:14 PM11/16/09
to
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:44:03 -0800, Gunner Asch
<gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:


>
>
>"fastest load" as defined by burn rate or max pressures/exit velocity?

Highest muzzle velocity. If we load for a given max peak pressure,
then the highest m.v. won't usually come from the fastest burning
powder. M.v. is a function of the time integral of pressure from
ignition until the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Karl Townsend

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 6:09:31 PM11/16/09
to

>>"fastest load" as defined by burn rate or max pressures/exit velocity?
>
> Highest muzzle velocity. If we load for a given max peak pressure,
> then the highest m.v. won't usually come from the fastest burning
> powder. M.v. is a function of the time integral of pressure from
> ignition until the bullet leaves the muzzle.

Now, when I took calculus <40 years ago>, why didn't I get problems with
different gun powders,charges, barrel lengths, and max pressures. maybe I
wouldn't have slept through it and forgot everything.

Karl


Doug White

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 6:47:38 PM11/16/09
to
Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in
news:bem1g5hf7n95bengj...@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:33:38 GMT, Doug White <gwh...@alum.mit.edu>
> wrote:

<snip>


>>I rummaged through some photos of my team shooting in last spring's
>>offhand league. Here is a photo that shows the general idea. He's
>>shooting a custom .223 "spacegun" built up on an AR-15 platform.
>>
>> http://users.rcn.com/gwhite/Misc/Offhand_sm.JPG
>>
>>Doug White
>
> Shooter #3 has far superior position.
>
> Shrug
>
> Pretty good post btw.
>
> Though shooting an M16 clone by using the magazine as a rest does tend
> to screw with critical recoil and "bedding" criteria.
>
> Shrug again

It depends on how tight the magazine is. Offhand matches are shot single
loaded, so that is a specially selected tight fitting magazine with a
single shot follower in it.

It can't be that big a problem. The guy with that rifle tied for the
highest total X-count for three matches with about 100 shooters
competing.

Doug White

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 7:09:47 PM11/16/09
to


True at times..but not always <G>

But you did good.

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 8:04:08 PM11/16/09
to

<G>

Now you know what it takes to be an "expert witness" in court when
firearms are involved.

On the other hand..you really dont need to know all that much. Just use
a cookbook properly (reloading manual) and use your tools properly.

And never every try to reload "fast". Take your time and double check
everything. After a while..it all becomes second nature and you will do
reloading fast.

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 8:05:03 PM11/16/09
to
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:47:38 GMT, Doug White <gwh...@alum.mit.edu>
wrote:

>Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in
>news:bem1g5hf7n95bengj...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 02:33:38 GMT, Doug White <gwh...@alum.mit.edu>
>> wrote:
><snip>
>>>I rummaged through some photos of my team shooting in last spring's
>>>offhand league. Here is a photo that shows the general idea. He's
>>>shooting a custom .223 "spacegun" built up on an AR-15 platform.
>>>
>>> http://users.rcn.com/gwhite/Misc/Offhand_sm.JPG
>>>
>>>Doug White
>>
>> Shooter #3 has far superior position.
>>
>> Shrug
>>
>> Pretty good post btw.
>>
>> Though shooting an M16 clone by using the magazine as a rest does tend
>> to screw with critical recoil and "bedding" criteria.
>>
>> Shrug again
>
>It depends on how tight the magazine is. Offhand matches are shot single
>loaded, so that is a specially selected tight fitting magazine with a
>single shot follower in it.
>
>It can't be that big a problem. The guy with that rifle tied for the
>highest total X-count for three matches with about 100 shooters
>competing.
>
>Doug White


Crom..but his stance sucks!

Course..he is shootng a poodle shooter cartridge..shrug

<G>

Buerste

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 8:21:03 PM11/16/09
to

"Karl Townsend" <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote in message
news:4b014a3c$0$65857$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...

Some people DO shoot cast bullets in you rifle. Research and see if you
want to go through the rigmarole to get the right load that will cycle the
action, not lead the barrel and hit what you want.


Doug White

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 9:08:14 PM11/16/09
to
Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in
news:rkt3g5dprcl8ja4h0...@4ax.com:

Everybody is built different, and different rifles require different
positions. The best stance is one that works. "Works" means stable,
repeatable, without causing undue strain over the course of a long match.
If you want pictures of bad stances, I can dig up a few.

> Course..he is shootng a poodle shooter cartridge..shrug

Same guy used to shoot a 14 pound Rem 700 in 308. That requires a more
conventional stance with more back bending. The magazine gets the AR-15
style rifle high enough without having to go though contortions, and the
adjustable butt plate helps to permit a more upright head postion as well.
It's like shooting an Olympic free rifle with a palm rest. Some folks
still shoot the AR-15 with their support hand up under the barrel, and that
requires a more old-fashioned twisting back lean.

Doug White

Stuart Wheaton

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 9:18:20 PM11/16/09
to
BobH wrote:

> Karl Townsend wrote:
>> Man, I got a lot to learn. I've already ordered some once used brass
>> and 150 grain FMJ bullets. I see four powders offerred for 308
>> (2230,2460,2495,2520). Too much info for a clueless newbie, but I'd
>> like to reload .223 also with the same powder. Keep in mind I have no
>> intention of competing in shooting matches, just want quality
>> servicable ammunition. Would you go with 2520???
>>
>> http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A-2520%20--%20Powder%20info%20and%20description.pdf
>>
>>
>> Or maybe 2460???
>>
>> http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/A-2460%20--%20Powder%20info%20and%20description.pdf
>>
>
> You will be happy with the Dillon 550, I used one a lot in the 90's and
> it is an excellent machine. Both of your powder choices are listed as
> spherical or ball powders which is good. Ball powders always worked out
> better for me in the 550 powder measure. I used BL-C2 for 223 and 30-06
> with good results. The stick powders never seemed to behave well in the
> Dillon powder measure for me.
>

I've read about guys taping or clamping an aquarium pump or other
vibrating motor to the powder reservoir to improve the flow and
consistency with stick powders.

I have not tried it myself, but it was mentioned in a bullseye forum
where consistent powder weights really matter.

Steve W.

unread,
Nov 16, 2009, 10:45:00 PM11/16/09
to
Stuart Wheaton wrote:

>
> I've read about guys taping or clamping an aquarium pump or other
> vibrating motor to the powder reservoir to improve the flow and
> consistency with stick powders.
>
> I have not tried it myself, but it was mentioned in a bullseye forum
> where consistent powder weights really matter.
>

I HATE stick powders but with a small vibrating motor on the hopper they
tend to feed MUCH more consistent. I still weigh a few throws every run
though.


--
Steve W.

Don Foreman

unread,
Nov 17, 2009, 12:31:02 AM11/17/09
to
On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:09:47 -0800, Gunner Asch
<gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:13:14 -0600, Don Foreman
><dfor...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:44:03 -0800, Gunner Asch
>><gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"fastest load" as defined by burn rate or max pressures/exit velocity?
>>
>>Highest muzzle velocity. If we load for a given max peak pressure,
>>then the highest m.v. won't usually come from the fastest burning
>>powder. M.v. is a function of the time integral of pressure from
>>ignition until the bullet leaves the muzzle.
>
>True at times..but not always <G>

The last sentence is always true. That's not to say that there aren't
other factors but m.v. is necessarily a function of the time integral
of pressure. That can be derived from first principles, Newton's law.

Actually predicting or modelling what the pressure vs time profile
might be for a given powder, primer, initial release pressure, bullet
and bore is a complex can of worms but that doesn't change the
underlying physics.

I've found QuickLoad to be a useful tool but I don't believe it's
predictions without verification with a chrony with a given powder.
Sometimes it's surprisingly accurate but not always.
http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

The cookbook recipes aren't always all that accurate either, but they
provide plenty of admonishments for sneaking up to max loads and
watching for signs of overpressure.

I compare chronograph readings with published data. If my m.v. is
close to what a tested and published load delivers, I figure I'm safe
unless the extracted brass tells me otherwise.

>But you did good.

Aw blush...

Gunner Asch

unread,
Nov 17, 2009, 12:58:13 AM11/17/09
to
On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:08:14 GMT, Doug White <gwh...@alum.mit.edu>
wrote:

Did you notice the guy I pointed out..third one back? Much superior
form, based on back line alone.

Shrug

Doug White

unread,
Nov 17, 2009, 12:11:19 PM11/17/09
to
Gunner Asch <gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote in
news:dqe4g5pogqde60l5o...@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:08:14 GMT, Doug White <gwh...@alum.mit.edu>
> wrote:

<snip>


> Did you notice the guy I pointed out..third one back? Much superior
> form, based on back line alone.

Certainly more classic or conventional. I think he was shooting a
standard bolt gun, which requires a good bit of back lean depending on
the stock & forward hand position.

If folks REALLY want to learn all about target rifle shooting, the best
book is "Ways of the Rifle 2009". This is a modern, thorough study of
Olympic competitive rifle shooting, with lots of data & interviews with
different top European shooters. One thing that becomes clear is that no
two top shooters use the same stance (or much else for that matter).
Foot placement, head position, cant, sight apertures, trigger setup, etc.
all vary quite a bit. Some of them do things that are entirely contrary
to what is normally taught. There are common aspects to what they do,
but some of them differ by almost as much as they are alike.

http://www.championshooters.com/store/product.php?productid=71

Page 67 and 68 have 18 photos of different shooters' offhand positions.
They are all over the map.

Doug White

Doug White

unread,
Nov 17, 2009, 12:29:41 PM11/17/09
to
"Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com> wrote in news:hdt66p$aug$1...@aioe.org:

Some stick powders still shoot very accurately, even with larger weight
variations than many people are comfortable with. 4895 powder in .308
can vary by as much as +/- 0.3 grains and still give very good accuracy.
My Redding powder measure can certainly hold tighter than than with
4064, which is another fairly forgiving powder. Things get tougher as
you go to smaller & smaller case volumes. 32 S&W is a popular cartridge
for international pistol competition, and a tenth of a grain is a good
chunk of a full load on one of those.

The US Palma team (900 & 100 yard international rifle competition) used a
Dillon 1050 to load one year with 4895. They were making a HUGE amount
of ammo, and found that they had to tweak the Dillon periodically to keep
the charges in line. For an individual user running much smaller
batches, you could probably do fine with a Dillon, checking charges
periodically.

Two things that help with the Dillon: 1) polish the inside of the
powder measure funnel & throat, and 2) bolt it down to something massive
so the vibration of cycling doesn't make it dance around randomly.

Having a small vibratory on the measure is a neat trick that should help
as well. I wonder if a cell phone buzzer would work?

Doug White

dca...@krl.org

unread,
Dec 10, 2009, 5:49:07 PM12/10/09
to
On Nov 15, 5:48 am, Don Foreman <dfore...@NOSPAMgoldengate.net> wrote:

> Ammo:  once-fired .308 brass is about 20 cents ea if/when you can find
> it.  I hope you kept your brass from today.  
>
> Primer, about 3 cents recently in St. Cloud
> Powder, about 20 cents worth
> Bullet, about 10 cents for Meister lead, 20 to 30 cents for FMJ e.g.
> Nosler, Hornady, etc
>
> Total per round, about 60 cents plus or minus for first lot,  about 40
> cents to reload brass you already have. New Winchester brass is about
> 40 cents ea  in lots of 50 or about 34 cents ea in lots of 500,
> currently in stock at MidwayUSA.  Remington brass is cheaper but it
> doesn't last as long.  

I went thru the local recycling yard today. It was very muddy, but
today I remembered to take some rubber boots. Some places the mud was
about 10 inches deep. But enough of that.

Inside they had a box nearly filled with brass. Mostly pistol
brass. .45 , .38 special, some other smaller brass that would fit
inside a .38 shell., and .223 brass.

I do not think there was any rifle brass other than the .223 brass.

I figure it was from a police range or maybe from a military range.

Any of you willing to pay say 7 dollars/ 100 for any of those sizes
plus actual shipping costs in priority mail boxes. If so I could stop
back by and get a bunch before it is gone.


Dan

Buerste

unread,
Dec 10, 2009, 7:16:33 PM12/10/09
to

<dca...@krl.org> wrote in message
news:0895102b-62f5-406d...@x15g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...


Dan

7 cents each for mixed headstamps is a bit high. Four cents each decapped,
tumbled and sized is about average. .223s a bit more.

dca...@krl.org

unread,
Dec 10, 2009, 8:11:17 PM12/10/09
to
On Dec 11, 12:16 am, "Buerste" <buer...@wowway.com> wrote:

> 7 cents each for mixed headstamps is a bit high.  Four cents each decapped,
> tumbled and sized is about average.  .223s a bit more.

I picked 7 cents as it was half of what I found at

http://www.bluestarbrass.com/catalog/ofrbrass.htm

Sure glad I did not buy any. And it explains why they had about 50 cu
ft of brass in the box.

Dan

Buerste

unread,
Dec 10, 2009, 9:27:39 PM12/10/09
to

<dca...@krl.org> wrote in message
news:6d6e37ff-6acc-4ee5...@p30g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...

http://www.bluestarbrass.com/catalog/ofrbrass.htm

***************************************

I've had the best luck at the auction sites.
Dan

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