Lifting Stuff

[SteamboatEd Haas]

Well I finally got rid of the 'portable' gantry I built 30 years ago; it just got to the point where I'm not physically able to break it down and move it around very safely any more. I built a couple of smaller widgets that I can put on my little Kubota tractor. The first one is a real kluge and works well enough to move trailers around the meadow but the second, a jib crane, is a bit of a stab in the dark and I'd appreciate comments on the design. It's not intended to pull a big engine out of a truck or anything like that, but it should be capable of lifting the steam engine or boiler out of my boat. https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamboat_ed/sets/72157655170041438

[Bob La Londe]

"SteamboatEd Haas" <steam...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7540ddea-f588-4a94...@googlegroups.com...

Your portable gantry could probably lift things much heavier than your
Kubota tractor can.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:19:59 -0700 (PDT), SteamboatEd Haas
<steam...@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamboat_ed/sets/72157655170041438


Nice..but a bit..light duty isnt it?

Gunner

[amdx]

I'm wondering about lateral stability.
It might want to fold to the left or right.

Mikek

[dpb]

On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
...

> ... the second, a jib crane, is a bit of a stab in the dark

> and I'd appreciate comments on the design. It's not intended to pull
> a big engine out of a truck or anything like that, but it should be
> capable of lifting the steam engine or boiler out of my boat.
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamboat_ed/sets/72157655170041438

Just guessing, but a first shot approximation...

From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat
1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the
arm is 1", 1/8"T tubing and roughly 16" long from the gusset to the lift
point. If so, from the following calculator, the bending stress
approach 30k psi for a load of 200 lb. That is, of course, for a
fully-supported end and has no compensation for the point loading effect
of the narrow gusset at the center of the tubing as the load
concentrator. One thing I'd suggest would be to add outside plates
there so there isn't just the one point in the middle but support at the
edges of the tubing instead. And, of course, if the length is longer
it's directly proportional if the tubing dimensions are heavier/lighter,
they have a effect by the fourth power of the difference between
inner/outer dimensions from the geometric moment of inertia of hollow tube.

I didn't try to estimate the lifting moment on the tractor to the rear
axle to see how much weight you need minimum to hold it down but the
seat is directly over the rear axle so your weight isn't helping much at
all in that regards.

That may be enough capacity, altho as another mentioned without any
lateral bracing whatever I'd worry quite a lot about it collapsing
sideways when it's subjected to some side loading from a bump or a
slight tilt from vertical (owing to ground slope, perhaps). I also
didn't do any calculation on the compression of the lower extension arm
against buckling but I suspect it's better than the above (but that's
purely speculative just based on the visuals).

<https://www.easycalculation.com/engineering/mechanical/deflection-hollow-rectangular-beams.php>

It is cute, though; I've thought of doing something similar for the
utility tractor here altho it's a fair amount larger (~30 hp green).

--

[dpb]

On 07/29/2015 9:51 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> Just guessing, but a first shot approximation...
>
> From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat
> 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the
> arm is 1", 1/8"T tubing and roughly 16" long from the gusset to the lift
> point. If so, from the following calculator, the bending stress approach

> 30k psi for a load of 200 lb. ...

And, of course, that's static loading only; the real kicker on stuff for
usage like this is the impact loads that are applied when the tractor
hits a bump or the like; those can be several times the static loading
and without any springs or other absorbing mechanism, it all has to be
taken up by the "beef" of the structure.

An example is the little 3-pt sprayer (55 gal) capacity...it was
commercial from Schaben but didn't take but one or two summers over the
ground around the feedlots and machinery parking areas before the bounce
caused the boom arm folding connectors to crack as well as the 6" wide
1/8"T rolled main support under the tank started to tear. I added a
1-1/2" by 5/32T angle; it still wasn't enough to take more than another
couple of years. I've got to beef it up again further this year and
will at that point also find some heavy compression springs to set the
tank on to relieve some of the impact load from being transmitted
directly to the frame.

While you'll never move stuff around with the hook like one covers
ground at a steady pace while spraying, it's inevitable you _will_ find
a hole or somesuch... :)

--

[dpb]

On 07/29/2015 10:26 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> An example is the little 3-pt sprayer (55 gal) capacity...it was
> commercial from Schaben but didn't take but one or two summers over the
> ground around the feedlots and machinery parking areas before the bounce
> caused the boom arm folding connectors to crack as well as the 6" wide
> 1/8"T rolled main support under the tank started to tear. I added a
> 1-1/2" by 5/32T angle; it still wasn't enough to take more than another
> couple of years. I've got to beef it up again further this year and will
> at that point also find some heavy compression springs to set the tank
> on to relieve some of the impact load from being transmitted directly to
> the frame.

...

Only picture of the precise design could find quickly...it's small but
you can see how they just rolled the platform sheet to make a square
edge...that tore beginning between the two uprights holding the valve.

<http://kentuckyfarmequipment.com/CimarronPhotos/cimarron_cmmh55_sprayer.jpg>

Hadn't looked before but current seem to have been modified to use a
(looks like perhaps 2-1/2"?) square beam between the two sideplates
instead; much beefier...

--

[Bob La Londe]

"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:mpap75$aqm$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
> ...
>
>> ... the second, a jib crane, is a bit of a stab in the dark
>> and I'd appreciate comments on the design. It's not intended to pull
>> a big engine out of a truck or anything like that, but it should be
>> capable of lifting the steam engine or boiler out of my boat.
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamboat_ed/sets/72157655170041438
>
> Just guessing, but a first shot approximation...
>
> From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat 1,
> not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the

I am not sure of the exact size of the pictured tractor, but my rather small
(33HP) 4wd John Deere has a Cat 2. A commercial farming buddy of mine
looked at it one day and said it was the smallest cat 2 setup he had ever
seen, but it was definitely cat 2.

[dpb]

On 07/30/2015 3:17 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> "dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:mpap75$aqm$1...@dont-email.me...
>> On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
...

>> Just guessing, but a first shot approximation...
>>
>> From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat
>> 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the
>
> I am not sure of the exact size of the pictured tractor, but my rather
> small (33HP) 4wd John Deere has a Cat 2. A commercial farming buddy of
> mine looked at it one day and said it was the smallest cat 2 setup he
> had ever seen, but it was definitely cat 2.

Cat 2 is 1-1/8" D lift pin is the definitive way to tell. (Cat 0 ->
5/8" and Cat 1 -> 7/8"). While those _could_ be, perhaps, just doesn't
look like it and it would be more than just a little unusual on such a
small tractor. That can't be but in the upper teens to low 20s on such
a small chassis.

I figured OP would be back and tell me where I was wrong altho I noticed
today in rechecking the photos on the first page of his notebook it
might be 1-1/4" X 1/8" tubing...if I get a little time this evening I'll
maybe try to recheck the guesses...

--

[dpb]

On 07/30/2015 5:27 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 07/30/2015 3:17 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> "dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:mpap75$aqm$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
> ...
>
>>> Just guessing, but a first shot approximation...
>>>
>>> From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat
>>> 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the
>>
>> I am not sure of the exact size of the pictured tractor, but my rather
>> small (33HP) 4wd John Deere has a Cat 2. A commercial farming buddy of
>> mine looked at it one day and said it was the smallest cat 2 setup he
>> had ever seen, but it was definitely cat 2.
>
> Cat 2 is 1-1/8" D lift pin is the definitive way to tell. (Cat 0 -> 5/8"
> and Cat 1 -> 7/8"). While those _could_ be, perhaps, just doesn't look
> like it and it would be more than just a little unusual on such a small
> tractor. That can't be but in the upper teens to low 20s on such a small
> chassis.

...

The JD 955 here is about 30 HP, MFWD (it's so old I don't remember
precisely) and is Cat 1. I don't know at what point Deere goes Cat 2
standard; I suppose it's probably possible to order a higher level than
standard even on the utilities, or somebody could have swapped out pins
or arms, even...

The new "4 Family" run from 43 to 66 HP and are all Cat 1. OTOH, the 5E
series starts at about 50 hp up and are Cat 2 so it also depends on the
series. But, at 33 hp I think it's unusual for sure.

--

[Martin Eastburn]

Interesting. My John Deer 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. The pins that are
used to pick up with are maybe 7/8 and then there is a sleeve. Maybe it
is 5/8 plus 1/8" making 7/8 tubing around the pin that is hard. I
suspect the tubing is the consumable while the pin is the strength that
pulls. I thought it were larger myself.
I use 48" wide Power Tiller, 56" wide hog mower, 48" fine cut and 48"
front end loader.

The large hooks take the tubing diameter while the pin is the implement
size.

Handy tool that is for sure. When the grass gets waist high or more due
to constant rain, the Deer just drives through and cuts.

At our age, we use it to tote heavy boxes and materials around the property.

Martin

[dpb]

On 07/30/2015 9:12 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Interesting. My John Deer 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. The pins that are
> used to pick up with are maybe 7/8 and then there is a sleeve. Maybe it
> is 5/8 plus 1/8" making 7/8 tubing around the pin that is hard. I
> suspect the tubing is the consumable while the pin is the strength that
> pulls. I thought it were larger myself.

...

If you have a sleeve, the implement is then a Cat 0 with the sleeve to
adapt to Cat 1; a "true" Cat 1 will have a 7/8" pin. The sleeve is
simply an adapter.

--

[dpb]

On 07/30/2015 5:27 PM, dpb wrote:

> On 07/30/2015 3:17 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> "dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:mpap75$aqm$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> On 07/28/2015 12:19 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
> ...
>
>>> Just guessing, but a first shot approximation...
>>>
>>> From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat
>>> 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the

...

> I figured OP would be back and tell me where I was wrong altho I noticed
> today in rechecking the photos on the first page of his notebook it
> might be 1-1/4" X 1/8" tubing...if I get a little time this evening I'll
> maybe try to recheck the guesses...

I can't make any more definitive estimates than before but if it is
1-1/4" instead of 1", the same stress levels are at about 350 lb vs 200...

--

[dpb]

On 07/30/2015 9:12 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

> Interesting. My John Deer[e] 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. ...
...

> I use 48" wide Power Tiller, 56" wide hog mower, 48" fine cut and 48"
> front end loader.

...

While I don't have a handy actual photo of our rig set up for the field,
this is more like what we use 3-pt for... :)

<http://www.cornwallfoodandfarming.net/images/ks2-spring-in-the-field1bb.jpg>

--

[Volker Borchert]

dpb wrote:

> The new "4 Family" run from 43 to 66 HP and are all Cat 1.

Urgs.

--

"I'm a doctor, not a mechanic." Dr Leonard McCoy <mc...@ncc1701.starfleet.fed>
"I'm a mechanic, not a doctor." Volker Borchert <v_bor...@despammed.com>

[Martin Eastburn]

JD is putting pins that are hard. The shells they sell in the parts
room are for expansion of the pin size but take the nicks and sand crap
when moving or jerking the load on something you snagged upon. The
implements are a mixture of Deer and Frontier and both manuals say Cat
1. So does the website. So I think the sleeve is a consumable part.
Long learned that a bunged up scratched pin might not slide through a
hole unless ground down. While the Sleeve is swapped with another and
away you go.

Martin

[Martin Eastburn]

That is a taller larger large field unit than mine. A Row tractor.

http://www.deere.com/en_US/products/equipment/tractors/sub_compact_utility_tractors/1_series/1025r_sub_compact/1025r_sub_compact.page?

Here is the stripped down version - missing the front end loader and
the heavy mower on the rear. It could have a bucket on the back as
well. I have the Heavy powered unit with more Hydraulics so I can add
options easily as I have.

I'm under 10 acres so I don't need a big one. Wish I had a 2_Series
unit but didn't know at the time. It is much heaver and can really work.

Martin

[dpb]

On 07/31/2015 9:31 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> JD is putting pins that are hard. The shells they sell in the parts room
> are for expansion of the pin size but take the nicks and sand crap
> when moving or jerking the load on something you snagged upon. The

> implements are a mixture of Deer[e] and Frontier and both manuals say Cat

> 1. So does the website. So I think the sleeve is a consumable part. Long
> learned that a bunged up scratched pin might not slide through a
> hole unless ground down. While the Sleeve is swapped with another and
> away you go.

...

Of course the pins are hard; if Frontier or some of the utility stuff is
now coming with Cat 0 pins and a bushing that's something I've never
seen...have similar setup on the utility here with a box blade, garden
tiller, mower, post hole digger, sprayer, etc., etc., and they're all
full-size 7/8" pins. It's all at least 10 yr old or older, however, so
if somebody has come up with a clever idea, that's a possibility I
suppose. I've never had any issue with any of 'em in all that time.

For everything else except the above little utility stuff, everything
has quick-hitch attachment anyway; one never need slide a pin thru (and
you'd never manage with a 12-row planter or such on full-size equipment,
anyway, it's simply too heavy to budge to do so).

--

[dpb]

On 07/31/2015 9:43 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> That is a taller larger large field unit than mine. A Row tractor.
>
> http://www.deere.com/en_US/products/equipment/tractors/sub_compact_utility_tractors/1_series/1025r_sub_compact/1025r_sub_compact.page?
>
>
> Here is the stripped down version - missing the front end loader and
> the heavy mower on the rear. It could have a bucket on the back as well.
> I have the Heavy powered unit with more Hydraulics so I can add
> options easily as I have.
>
> I'm under 10 acres so I don't need a big one. Wish I had a 2_Series unit
> but didn't know at the time. It is much heaver and can really work.

We have 7 quarters (a "quarter" is one-fourth a section or 160A) and
rent another 6 to farm a total of 13 quarters dryland mostly wheat and
milo in far SW KS...that picture's similar to the smaller row crop at
about 180 drawbar HP. It's still _very_ small compared to the larger
operators with their 20+ corn planters and all, but they're not 3-pt
setups.

On acreage we're about average for the area in size but nothing at all
compared to some that are 3-4X the size of operation but that's twice
the size were when was growing up in the 60s and were probably in top
third back then.

--

[dpb]

On 07/30/2015 9:12 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

> Interesting. My John Deer 4wd series 1 is a Cat 1. The pins that are
> used to pick up with are maybe 7/8 and then there is a sleeve. Maybe it
> is 5/8 plus 1/8" making 7/8 tubing around the pin that is hard. I
> suspect the tubing is the consumable while the pin is the strength that
> pulls. I thought it were larger myself.
> I use 48" wide Power Tiller, 56" wide hog mower, 48" fine cut and 48"
> front end loader.

...

One last note...perhaps for the lighter stuff they have gone to bushings
so the can be used with a Cat 0 tractor w/o replacing the pins; again if
so I've never noticed. Not sure if the Deere dealer has anything that
small in stock to look at; when I'm out next time I'll look around.

Even as a kid I never could understand why Dad never would get a small
utility for around the place; as noted, everything here I got with the
utility after we came back to the farm after he passed 15 yr or so ago
by now. The closest we had back then was an old (1930's vintage
Caterpillar 22 (22 drawbar hp) left from the period when granddad had a
bunch of them they used with a 3-row pull-type lister for all the row
crops that had a stiff-frame bucket. It was too low to load a truck
with but could move a little dirt or the like. Of course, being tracked
it left a heckuva mess afterwards on the ground. Neighbors at the time
had little Ford 8N that was just so cute and handy...later on (early
60s, had an Allis Chalmers D-17 that eventually bought a bucket for --
it was a nice loader tractor altho still just barely enough height to
get over the side of a 2T grain truck side. For it he also eventually
bought a 7-ft Fordson bush hog, but without a live PTO it was a real
trick maneuvering it around close quarters without it driving you
instead of vice versa...but that's what (along with a 15-ft solid shaft
flail mower) is what he made do with and was what was here when we got
back...

I bought the JD 955 (had to go back to the Wichita area to find one;
there's just almost no small utility stuff out here and what there is
doesn't often come up for resale) and most of the attachments within a
year or two after we came back...they happened to have a 6-ft belly
finish mower that fit and a 66" tiller (Land Pride) at the time so took
them along w/ the tractor. It already had the bucket as it was a
tradein from a landscaping outfit; been pretty heavily abused
cosmetically but has been solid mechanically for another 12-13 yr so was
a good deal. Would like to have been a little larger but we needed to
drag a bunch of dirt away from the house to regrade as over the years
including the Dust Bowl of the '30s it had gotten to where the house was
lower than the yard all around so nothing drained (on those rare
occasions when it does actually rain here :) ) so I got the smaller for
the clearance under the trees and around "stuff" in the yard to do that.
It worked nicely with the tiller and 6-ft box blade to drag to a pile
and then use the larger loader on the old JD 4440 to load the truck and
haul. For the larger areas around the feedlots and machinery parking
areas I also bought a new Rhino 15-ft batwing mower to use around the
place and relegate the flail to pasture cleanup. It's much more
maneuverable and does a cleaner job and can get close enough to fences
and outbuildings that then the belly mower on the 955 can clean up
pretty well. I'd like to find a 3-pt sickle sidebar to be able to slide
under the cedar windbreaks and along the feedlot fences between posts
but they're also very rare out here. I found a new one a few years
after the move but it was back eastern part of the state and I was on
way back to TN before we'd gotten the house there sold so didn't close
the deal and when got back somebody else had taken it...didn't know that
Deere had quit making 'em at the time and there were no more other than
finding used...

Anyway, I suppose that the difference is both age and that all the stuff
here is a little larger on the pins used but I've never seen an actual
pin boogered to the point it would be any problem to use so I still
think it's a case of simply using a Cat 0 pin from the factory to make
things universal w/o having to swap rather than that the sleeves are
really considered a "consumable"--altho I'll grant one's a lot more
likely to mung one of them up than the pin itself which sorta' makes
them that... :)

Anyway, "far too much information" and I needs to go get busy and I'll
shut up and go away for the time being...altho I may try to post some
actual pictures somewhere; this year things look pretty good as we've
finally(!!!) had some decent rains after the previous five years of
severe drought--although we're now getting to where we need another for
the row crops (milo, primarily with some other feed sorghums) to make a
crop they're going to have to have at least one more good rain.

--

[dpb]

On 08/01/2015 9:20 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> One last note...perhaps for the lighter stuff they have gone to bushings

> so the[y] can be used with a Cat 0 tractor w/o replacing the pins; again if

> so I've never noticed. Not sure if the Deere dealer has anything that
> small in stock to look at; when I'm out next time I'll look around.

...

Well, had to go out this AM for spare parts for combine to get ready for
milo...hadn't driven down the equipment line for the small stuff before.
Anyway, there were 3 or 4 Frontier 3-pt mowers and a blade or two and
a few other odds 'n ends. Other than the one smallest mower (48") which
did have Cat 0 pins, all the rest were Cat 1 lift pins.

I'm still thinking that the previous surmise is correct based on that
sample...

--

[Martin Eastburn]

Since I'm a deer guy and never saw a Frontier product until I talked to
my sales guy and asked him the price on a xxx and delivery time...
The Deer stuff is 1 1/8 heavy steel. While the other parts could be
used on multiple tractor grades by changing bolt positions and maybe the
Pin spacer.

We once had 3 farms in Indiana but two generations ago they were
swindled away from the family. My dad grew up on one of them worked all
three and drove a team of 8 Morgans. AKA Hay Burners big time.

My wife has an x300 deer - a robust factory made deer mower. The deers
sold at Home Depot and places are made overseas.

She got nose into a drainage ditch mowing and I had to lift up the front
and she drove it out without front wheels. Backing up. She had run
aground.

Mine weighs more than a car and is handy. Just no use for large row
stuff.

The brothers over at the Tree service dealer - have Big Deers! They
ship wheels on flatbeds with escorts! Then there is the Industrial
Deer across town that has the big digging machines...

The Farm tractor Deer dealer is in the next large town going North or
another (same owner) West about 40-50 miles away.

This is a Lumber / lumber product region. Power Poles and all.

Martin

[dpb]

On 08/01/2015 10:27 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> Since I'm a deer guy and never saw a Frontier product until I talked to
> my sales guy and asked him the price on a xxx and delivery time...

...

It seems to be Deere's "utility/suburb" brand--I don't know just when
they introduced it but appears to be their answer for the smaller and
"weekend farmer" market. I presume altho I have no data and there's no
additional info readily available at the Deere site that it's all
contracted stuff for resale. There's a wide variety of stuff now, some
5-600 different products listed.

JD Green paint is dear (pun intended :) ) but red isn't far
behind--we're down to only having a Deere dealership local; it's 60+
miles to the red one so it's just not convenient for parts to be so far
for everything for production farming; hence virtually everything here
is JD.

When a kid, there were Farmall/International, Allis Chalmers, Case,
Minneapolis-Moline all in town but consolidation took out some and the
80's farm contraction did to them what it did to the smaller operators
as well...

--

[dpb]

On 08/01/2015 10:27 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

...

> We once had 3 farms in Indiana but two generations ago they were
> swindled away from the family. My dad grew up on one of them worked all
> three and drove a team of 8 Morgans. AKA Hay Burners big time.

Sorry to hear that...while but a blink in comparison to some of the
areas further east, we reached the "Century Farm" mark last year; my
grandfather with is brother bought the home quarter in 1914. There were
at that time no improvements on the place and only 20 A had even been
broken out of native sod. The original purchaser never planted a crop.
Was fortunate to have arrived in that time frame; it was in a moist
cycle (by W KS standards, anyway :) ) and in the '20s economic
conditions were mostly favorable so by the Depression and Dust Bowl by
dint of being both a good farmer and a capable business manager they had
managed to have sufficient resources to hang on thru the 30's and Dust
Bowl. We had another severe drought in the early 50's that I clearly
recall that was a mini-dust bowl but as dry as though two periods were,
the lowest annual accumulation we've recorded at the house since grandpa
started keeping track in '15 was just two years ago in this current
cycle of just barely over 7"; the lowest previous was about 10" in 1951.
The lowest during the 30s was actually close to 14"; that it was so
severe a result is a reflection on how much farming technique for this
region has advanced since as developed equipment and methods more suited
to the sandy soil and limited moisture. When broke this ground out, all
they knew and had equipment for was what worked farther east in heavier
soils and more rainfall.

My grandfather used mules but other than one favorite that was a
essentially a pet when I was very young, none were still around by the
time I had any activity. Granddad had a registered milking shorthorn
breeding cowherd as a secondary sideline but also by the time I reached
teens they had fallen out of favor. He passed in '57 and Dad converted
over to running stocker heifers on winter wheat and milo stubble over
the winter and selling them off to the feeders in the spring while we
farmed the summertime. We also built the small (500 head) feedlot at
that point and would feed out some, numbers varying from year to year
based on what guesstimated markets would be like and feed availabilty;
it's still dryland W KS, after all! :)

--

[dpb]

On 08/02/2015 8:55 AM, dpb wrote:
...

> The lowest during the 30s was actually close to 14"; that it was so
> severe a result is a reflection on how much farming technique for this
> region has advanced since as developed equipment and methods more suited
> to the sandy soil and limited moisture. When broke this ground out, all
> they knew and had equipment for was what worked farther east in heavier
> soils and more rainfall.

...

That was a typo; the 14" was more nearly 12" but the other key missing
ingredient that they weren't familiar with when they began farming out
here was _THE WIND_!!! It just does _not_ blow like it does here back
east, even the middle/eastern part of KS is nothing like the western
third and the other areas of the high plains north and south along the
eastern Rockies. It's a unique environment owing to the rain shield and
the large expanse of flat unbroken ground devoid of any trees or other
disrupting surface features...

--

[Martin Eastburn]

My Granddad died in 21. His Dad, and his two brothers farms became
the estate. One farm in the 20's was loaned to Purdue as a test farm.
Step 'granddad' lost all three farms in a hand of poker in Chicago, so
it was said.

My Great Uncle, a Doctor with a farm, lived in town passed the farm in
a legal way to my Great Aunt in the 30's. (back then women and
ownership was tricky). He had tenant farmers and now the young girl who
used to come to visit Great Aunt Joyce owns the farm. At least one of
the brothers places still exist.

And the colors of tractors - Uncle Art had a large dairy farm co-op
(had 13 kids that lived) and each married with a farm - They all worked
and helped each other. As time would take their toll, each sold out to
the large corp that took over the region.

Dad and his two older sons were big into electronics not farming.


Martin

[dpb]

On 08/02/2015 9:07 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
...

> ... Uncle Art had a large dairy farm co-op

> (had 13 kids that lived) and each married with a farm - They all worked
> and helped each other. As time would take their toll, each sold out to
> the large corp that took over the region.

...

KS is one of the places that has laws against corporate farm ownership
(other than closely-held family corp's) so that hasn't (at least yet)
happened here...at some point I expect there will be court challenges
and they'll have a difficult time keeping it in place, unfortunately.
While there are quite large operations, they are all
family-owned/operated still, and all the ones in the county and that I
know in neighboring counties are continuing entities of the original
homesteaders. It simply takes a larger operation to manage given
current economics than years ago--if I weren't retired from a previous
career before came back after Dad passed, it would be a marginal living
on our acreage now that was (at least in good years) comfortable for
folks. I've scaled back as the years pass as had Dad and run no cattle
(which given current markets is great on the selling side but not so
great on an operation such as ours which was a "buy and sell" annual one
with the primary farming operation and no permanent pasture so that's
just as well at the moment.

There are quite a number of dairies in the area now that didn't used to
be--they have moved out here from CA, AZ, etc., where they've been
forced out by either city expansion or more often the extremely onerous
environmental limitations placed on them by state or counties or even
municipalities. Of course, the home county here in KS passed an
ordinance some 30 yr ago now that prevented Seaboard from bringing in
their hog operations; they instead are 40 mi away down in OK panhandle.
We do have a large beef packing operation and a number of feeding
operations plus one of which (27000 head capacity) a few miles east of
us was sold last year and converted into "Heifer Source" a raising
operation for milkers--it's Minnesota-owned and I understand most of
them end up up in that neck of the woods after they're finished here...

--

[dpb]

On 08/01/2015 10:27 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

...[rearranged for sequencing to make narrative continuous]...

> On 8/1/2015 11:56 AM, dpb wrote:
...

>> Well, had to go out this AM for spare parts for combine to get ready for
>> milo...hadn't driven down the equipment line for the small stuff before.
>> Anyway, there were 3 or 4 Frontier 3-pt mowers and a blade or two and
>> a few other odds 'n ends. Other than the one smallest mower (48") which
>> did have Cat 0 pins, all the rest were Cat 1 lift pins.
>>
>> I'm still thinking that the previous surmise is correct based on that
>> sample...

> The Deer[e] stuff is 1 1/8 heavy steel. While the other parts could be used

> on multiple tractor grades by changing bolt positions and maybe the Pin
> spacer.

...

Just a note (and particularly if you are having trouble munging up the
sleeves so have to replace them)...

If I had that type of gear and the only tractor on which I used it was
Cat 1, I'd just replace the Cat 0 lift pins with Cat 1 and ditch the
adapter sleeves entirely...

Just a thought...

--

[SteamboatEd Haas]

I've worried about that a bit too so I plan to shim all the joints and to add gussetts as needed. Time will tell. And FWIW the heaviest load I plan to use it for is only about 200 lbs; beyond that I've always got the loader bucket and a pair of forks I can add.

[SteamboatEd Haas]

On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 7:51:48 AM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
> Just guessing, but a first shot approximation...
>
> From the size of the tractor, and giving benefit that the 3-pt is Cat
> 1, not Cat 0, I'm guesstimating by measuring from the pictures that the
> arm is 1", 1/8"T tubing and roughly 16" long from the gusset to the lift
> point. If so, from the following calculator, the bending stress
> approach 30k psi for a load of 200 lb. That is, of course, for a
> fully-supported end and has no compensation for the point loading effect
> of the narrow gusset at the center of the tubing as the load
> concentrator. One thing I'd suggest would be to add outside plates
> there so there isn't just the one point in the middle but support at the
> edges of the tubing instead. And, of course, if the length is longer
> it's directly proportional if the tubing dimensions are heavier/lighter,
> they have a effect by the fourth power of the difference between
> inner/outer dimensions from the geometric moment of inertia of hollow tube.

I think it's somewhere between Cat 0 and Cat 1; something Kubota dreamed up. The square tubing is 1-1/4 in. square and it's all 1/8" wall. The jib is 30 in from root to tip. The tee piece that supports the whole thing on the lower arms of the 3-point hitch is 2 in. square tube, also 1/8 in. wall.

[dpb]

On 08/03/2015 2:00 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, amdx wrote:

...

>> I'm wondering about lateral stability.
>> It might want to fold to the left or right.
>>

...

> I've worried about that a bit too so I plan to shim all the joints
> and to add gussetts as needed. Time will tell. And FWIW the heaviest
> load I plan to use it for is only about 200 lbs; beyond that I've
> always got the loader bucket and a pair of forks I can add.

So what is the actual tubing dimension--1 or 1.25"?

Besides the previous idea of the gussets on the outside edge of the
tubing instead besides in the center a tension rod on the sides similar
but smaller in scale would be pretty effective. The gusset location
that I could see would be for the upright at the crossbar; probably a
sizable triangle plate on the front edge would work well and not
interfere with the adjustment pins, etc., ...

But, if it never gets out of plumb and is only 200-lb or less, it'll
probably be just fine; it's always the "aw shXXX!!" moment that's the
killer when something unwanted happens...

--

[SteamboatEd Haas]

On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 12:09:39 PM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
> On 08/03/2015 2:00 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, amdx wrote:
> ...
>
> >> I'm wondering about lateral stability.
> >> It might want to fold to the left or right.
> >>
> ...
>
> > I've worried about that a bit too so I plan to shim all the joints
> > and to add gussetts as needed. Time will tell. And FWIW the heaviest
> > load I plan to use it for is only about 200 lbs; beyond that I've
> > always got the loader bucket and a pair of forks I can add.
>
> So what is the actual tubing dimension--1 or 1.25"?

--It's 1.25 with 1/8" wall.
--And for those who wonder my tractor is a Kubota BX-22, 18hp. It came with a bucket and backhoe; I'm told the primary customers, aside from urban escapees like me, are cemetaries as the backhoe can dig just 6ft deep.. ;-)
--Sad to hear all the tales of how many of you lot lost your old family farms; we've managed to hang onto ours since 1849 and it's still going strong despite many changes. No more tomatos, hay and alfalfa or cattle; 25 years or so back we volunteered to be part of the UC Davis experiment to grow grapes and that was a godsend. If not for that leap I'd be slogging away in a machine shop full time, instead of part time for fun.. ;-) It is a little awkward now when we have a meeting: the family that started the farm many moons ago was fruitful and multiplied: we need two rows of chairs at the table!

[dpb]

On 08/03/2015 2:29 PM, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
> On Monday, August 3, 2015 at 12:09:39 PM UTC-7, dpb wrote:

...

>> So what is the actual tubing dimension--1 or 1.25"?
> --It's 1.25 with 1/8" wall.
> --And for those who wonder my tractor is a Kubota BX-22, 18hp. It came with a bucket and backhoe; I'm told the primary customers, aside from urban escapees like me, are cemetaries as the backhoe can dig just 6ft deep.. ;-)

...

OK, as noted the yield bending moment for the arm for that is at (very)
roughly the 300 lb point so you've got some slack...

--

[Martin Eastburn]

Good Idea, but after towing the mower around the place and into and over
places that might have been not in the way - bumps and limbs -
I don't see any wear on the sleeves. They are dry and if sand flies
through it keeps going. So far so good.

Guess My job of Tera-plane the back yard is about to start. After
building a 28x70 foot building on three times the area raised (7' in the
back of the yard and normal height near the house - the number of
sand trucks and cement trucks did a number on the back field. The
Rotary will be used instead of a Dozer with laser. A little more work
here and there. The front end loader will be in high use as well.

Martin

[SteamboatEd Haas]

PS I did a few measurements on the 3-point hitch: the lower arms can pass a 1 in. bolt. The upper fixed point uses a 5/8 in. pin. Not sure of whether that makes it class 0 or class 1. I can mount a 48 in. mower but to do so I have to position the lower arms inside, rather than outside the mower attachment points so I have to reverse the mounting pins. No problem lifting it with the hydraulics tho and the PTO has run the mower just fine for a decade.

[SteamboatEd Haas]

--Oh and I've made a minor refinement to the rig. I found that the chain would hop out of its box on the end of the jib every time I hit a bump so I made a little retaining clip thingy. Photo here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamboat_ed/20449628975/in/dateposted-public/

[dpb]

That is a non-standard rig as you surmised, per the ISO Standard (730-1,
1994) which contains the definitive definition for consistency, Cat 0 is
5/8" for both lift and link pins while Class 1 is 7/8" lift and 3/4"
link pin. The 1" lift point opening doesn't match anything precisely;
Cat 2 is 1-1/8" for the lift pin.

The midpoint spacing for the lift arms is 20, 26, and 32", for Cat 0, 1,
2, respectively.

--

[SteamboatEd Haas]

--Update: used the jib crane this past weekend and it worked just fine. As someone pointed out it could probably withstand more than the tractor's wimpy hydraulics could deliver. When lifting the boiler out of my boat I was able to get it to juuuust shy of the deck, so on a whim I had my pal push up on the boom and that made the difference: muscle power alone let the hydraulics complete the lift and get the boiler clear of the deck! Photos of the whole operation here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamboat_ed/albums/72157646738530236

[PCS]

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 2:57:32 PM UTC-4, SteamboatEd Haas wrote:
> --Update: used the jib crane this past weekend and it worked just fine. As someone pointed out it could probably withstand more than the tractor's wimpy hydraulics could deliver. When lifting the boiler out of my boat I was able to get it to juuuust shy of the deck, so on a whim I had my pal push up on the boom and that made the difference: muscle power alone let the hydraulics complete the lift and get the boiler clear of the deck! Photos of the whole operation here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamboat_ed/albums/72157646738530236

Thanks for the photos of the steam engine, very much enjoyed that.
Is that a Stuart?

G'luck
PaulS

[SteamboatEd Haas]

On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 10:57:10 AM UTC-7, PCS wrote:
> Thanks for the photos of the steam engine, very much enjoyed that.
> Is that a Stuart?

--Yes it's the Stuart Swan, a double 5-A: 2-1/4 in. bore, 2 in. stroke, double acting, no compounding.

[SteamboatEd Haas]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-7, amdx wrote:

> On 7/28/2015 12:40 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:19:59 -0700 (PDT), SteamboatEd Haas
> > <steam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/steamboat_ed/sets/72157655170041438
> >
> >
> > Nice..but a bit..light duty isnt it?
> >
> > Gunner
> >

> I'm wondering about lateral stability.
> It might want to fold to the left or right.
>

> Mikek

Aye it concerns me too. I try not to lift stuff very high and I only move in low gear.

[Jim Wilkins]

"SteamboatEd Haas" <steam...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:520a3d04-eeeb-4df9...@googlegroups.com...

Very nice!

I rigged up a similar result for a smaller tractor by converting a
2000 Lb shop crane into a trailer, with larger off-road wheels and a
hitch.

The caster/lift at the mast end is a trailer tongue jack with two
added outer wheels. The axle has a fork attached to a pipe tee for a
removeable screw-in pipe handle to move it manually, which is very
useful to position the load precisely, for example when reinstalling a
pickup truck bed.

Heavy loads can be secured by lowering them onto crosswise planks.
-jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"SteamboatEd Haas" <steam...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:520a3d04-eeeb-4df9...@googlegroups.com...

Is that BX22 practical to excavate rocky ground?
http://www.tractordata.com/backhoe-loader/000/1/1/118-kubota-bx22-attachments.html

[SteamboatEd Haas]

>
> Is that BX22 practical to excavate rocky ground?
> http://www.tractordata.com/backhoe-loader/000/1/1/118-kubota-bx22-attachments.html

--Good question. Sure you can pick up boulders with the backhoe but the standard bucket is only 12" wide. As for weight I suppose a couple hundred pounds could be lifted out of a trench. By 'rocky ground' I think as long as it's not concrete you could scratch your way beneath the surface without too much trouble.

[Martin Eastburn]

It is best to have a 'thumb' that holds the rock in the bucket.

If the trench is more or less a single or several at the same time,
rent a small excavator They have more power, move side to side and dump
where typical tractors are 15 degrees or less to the side.

There are good YouTube video's -
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLFndeI09kfxpjP9hdLkNrg

Tractor time with tim. He has tractor backhole and a small excavator
and loves the latter once he got it.

Martin

[et...@whidbey.com]

I have a Case 580CK backhoe and I love it. But before I got it I
rented a small tracked excavator, only about 4 feet wide. It had the
joystick control and a thumb. That little machine was a blast to run
and could dig surprisingly well. It could lift over three hundred
pounds with the thumb.
Eric

[Mike Spencer]

SteamboatEd Haas <steam...@gmail.com> writes:

>> Is that BX22 practical to excavate rocky ground?
>> http://www.tractordata.com/backhoe-loader/000/1/1/118-kubota-bx22-attachments.html
>

> Good question. Sure you can pick up boulders with the backhoe but
> the standard bucket is only 12" wide. As for weight I suppose a
> couple hundred pounds could be lifted out of a trench. By 'rocky
> ground' I think as long as it's not concrete you could scratch your
> way beneath the surface without too much trouble.

I've used one of these several times. If you have rocks, say, smaller
than your head, no problem or, at worst, slow going. Much bigger rocks
you'll have to detour around or excavate all around and winch out.

Trench for underground 200 amp power supply to my shop has a zig in
it, a detour around a rock ca. the size of a 20" CRT monitor.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[Jim Wilkins]

"Mike Spencer" <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote in message
news:87h8rcq...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere...

Simple and effective, but not fast:
https://www.trowandholden.com/wedgetech.php

The modified shop crane trailer I mentioned can hoist and haul away a
boulder weighing at least 1/2 ton, limited by the capacity of the
added wheels.

-jsw

[Bob La Londe]

I would imagine the cure to hard ground is a smaller bucket. I've
busted and removed caliche with a pick and a shovel. At my best I used
to only be average strong, so I am sure those hydraulics could handle a
man sized ground breaker of some kind.

[Gerry]

On 23 Jan 2018 17:12:09 -0400, Mike Spencer

30+ years ago while supervising an airport grading/drainage project, I
ran into granular material ranging from fine white blow sand to a
boulder 13 x 7 x 5 feet; after paying to have it hauled to a
designated disposal area, middle management suggested that it would
have been cheaper to just dig a deep hole and bury it where it was
found and my answer was "yeah and leave it as a surprise for someone
else!

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob La Londe" <no...@none.com99> wrote in message
news:p48fb7$1r5r$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

The soil here isn't hard like caliche, it's glacial till, a poorly
sorted mix of sand, gravel and rocks of all sizes. The rocks make
shoveling very slow and difficult.

My immediate goal is to excavate into the hillside close behind my
house to make flat space for a new storage shed. I probably should
rent a small excavator to trench in on both ends to see if I encounter
ledge, what we call solid rock.

-jsw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gerry" <gerald...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:2fmf6dl5sp5a8n58m...@4ax.com...

There's a housing development around here where the builder buried the
boulders under the road. Later when the town extended water and sewer
out there the pipeline crews were NOT happy.