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proper way to use a lock washer?

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asdfasdf

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Jun 6, 2013, 10:34:32 PM6/6/13
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When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done
a million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the
purpose of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there
to dig in a bit to the object and the nut to keep it from
loosening. The flat washer seems like it would allow the
lock washer to rotate without digging in to the object.

Anyone know?


PrecisionmachinisT

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Jun 6, 2013, 10:51:22 PM6/6/13
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"asdfasdf" <as...@asdfasdf.com> wrote in message
news:YEbst.4577$b63....@newsfe30.iad...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_%28hardware%29#Spring_and_locking_washers


asdfasdf

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Jun 6, 2013, 11:03:02 PM6/6/13
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Wikipedia ruins everything. I was expecting a big argument to start.

PrecisionmachinisT

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Jun 6, 2013, 11:08:45 PM6/6/13
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"asdfasdf" <as...@asdfasdf.com> wrote in message
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Well, I'd say it depends...for instance, a soft washer with a large diameter
(fender washer) likely would provide more friction against the material
being bolted and so I have to at least
partially disagree with wiki on this..


Martin Eastburn

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Jun 7, 2013, 12:02:38 AM6/7/13
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It depends on the need.

If you are locking a nut to the base metal it is locking to -
use s star / split / double star / spring etc then the nut or a washer
and a nut. The washer spreads the presser across the nut and allows
it to rotate freely.

If you are trying to lock the nut and the thread then
you are trying to put side pressure on the nut....

Sometimes it is two nuts together with a washer.

Many uses.

Martin

Jon Danniken

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Jun 7, 2013, 9:14:43 AM6/7/13
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Despite what wiki says, I frequently use (and see used) a split lock
washer between a nut/bolt head and a flat washer. Even though it isn't
going to "bite" into the object being held or the nut/bolt head, it
still provides a longitudinal force to help keep it from becoming
unfastened.

Jon

Tim Wescott

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Jun 7, 2013, 12:35:46 PM6/7/13
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It may be worth a more extensive search. A mechanical engineer I know,
whose a very sharp guy, told me that someone did a study and determined
that split washers work because they act as springs that keep the tension
on the threads in one direction.

Wikipedia is not always a reliable source.

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Wild_Bill

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Jun 7, 2013, 1:29:01 PM6/7/13
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There are numerous views regarding the in/effectiveness of split style
lockwashers.

One sure way to be certain is to use the proper Loctite or similar thread
locking product.
Another option is to use nylock or other types of self-locking nuts..
although this may be more costly than threadlocking products, and some types
are considered OTU one-time-use only.

--
WB
.........


"asdfasdf" <as...@asdfasdf.com> wrote in message
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Richard

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Jun 7, 2013, 1:39:44 PM6/7/13
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On 6/7/2013 11:35 AM, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jun 2013 19:51:22 -0700, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:
>
>> "asdfasdf"<as...@asdfasdf.com> wrote in message
>> news:YEbst.4577$b63....@newsfe30.iad...
>>> When using a nut, lock washer and bolt, should you also use a flat
>>> washer between the object and the lock washer? I have seen it done a
>>> million times that way but it seems the flat washer defeats the purpose
>>> of the lock washer. I assume the lock washer is there to dig in a bit
>>> to the object and the nut to keep it from loosening. The flat washer
>>> seems like it would allow the lock washer to rotate without digging in
>>> to the object.
>>>
>>> Anyone know?
>>>
>>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washer_%28hardware%
> 29#Spring_and_locking_washers
>
> It may be worth a more extensive search. A mechanical engineer I know,
> whose a very sharp guy, told me that someone did a study and determined
> that split washers work because they act as springs that keep the tension
> on the threads in one direction.
>
> Wikipedia is not always a reliable source.
>


Then edit the page so that it is more reliable...

spamT...@yahoo.com

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Jun 7, 2013, 2:39:32 PM6/7/13
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Some simply consider split ring washers to be the work of the devil.

I found this looking for a more extensive set of videos of bolts loosening, and the test rig used.

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/junkertesthelicalspringwasher.htm

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helicalspringwashers.htm

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/vibloose.htm

dpb

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Jun 7, 2013, 3:47:19 PM6/7/13
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On 6/7/2013 1:39 PM, spamT...@yahoo.com wrote:
...

> Some simply consider split ring washers to be the work of the devil.
>
> I found this looking for a more extensive set of videos of bolts
> loosening, and the test rig used.
>
> http://www.boltscience.com/pages/junkertesthelicalspringwasher.htm
...

I didn't watch the rest; I notice they didn't say anything about the
torque applied on the test. Didn't appear to me it was more than just
"snugged down" rather than really torqued, but who's to know--they
cleverly didn't the applicator so can't even judge by looking the amount
of effort or size of ratchet, etc. While it may have been optical
delusion, looked to me like the bolt turned as well which wouldn't
indicate being very tight.

I don't have any scientific evidence but 50+ yr practical use on farm
indicates to me they serve a useful purpose.

--

anorton

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Jun 7, 2013, 4:23:03 PM6/7/13
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"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:kotdc4$p0p$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
I was impressed by this test at first, but then I realized looking at the
graph ( http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helicalspringwashers.htm ) that the
major difference occurs only after the bolt is already too loose. The plots
diverge only after the bolt has already lost half its preload. They really
need to concentrate on the very first part of the curve where the bolt
starts to loosen. If you look closely, there is some indication one curve is
much steeper than the other at the start, but it is impossible to tell which
it is. Maybe they need to dial back the shaking a bit to be able to measure
that part of the curve better.

anorton

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Jun 7, 2013, 4:37:08 PM6/7/13
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"anorton" <ano...@removethis.ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:lOWdnYKCneal3C_M...@earthlink.com...
(following up to my own post)
What would be best would be to create a set of curves like this at several
vibration amplitudes and see if there is some level of vibration where the
lockwasher prevents any loosening, but the plain nut does not.

Stormin Mormon

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Jun 7, 2013, 6:26:21 PM6/7/13
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Would you be happy if I quoted Aristotle,
quoted the Bible, and then called you a bad
name? I'd sure not want you to leave the room
unsatisfied, and all.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"asdfasdf" <as...@asdfasdf.com> wrote in message news:D3cst.46929$SH6....@newsfe22.iad...

Tim Wescott

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Jun 7, 2013, 7:32:49 PM6/7/13
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I'm not a reliable enough source, either. I was advising the OP to look
around and make up his own mind, not to believe what I said without
question.

If I needed to know I'd do a literature search -- starting, I admit, by
looking up my old mechanical engineering colleague, to see if he could
remember where he saw the note (I think it was NASA tech briefs. NASA
was doing all sorts of studies in that vein for a while).

asdfasdf

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Jun 7, 2013, 10:31:29 PM6/7/13
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On 6/7/2013 6:26 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Would you be happy if I quoted Aristotle,
> quoted the Bible, and then called you a bad
> name? I'd sure not want you to leave the room
> unsatisfied, and all.

That's the rcm way! I was hoping someone would do my
thread justice.

Stormin Mormon

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Jun 8, 2013, 8:30:18 AM6/8/13
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The Book of Gunner (in the Old Testament; one of the lost books) relates:
4. And at the early moment of dawn, on the sixth day of the week. The chariots were heard in the distance. My best look out came back into camp, and reported that the enemy had amassed 500 chariots with warriors and boys to assist.
5. My look outs from the high towers reported that behind the chariots were amazing multitudes of busty and nubile women, both nobles and wenches, and girls too young to have been married off to the warriors of the opposing realm. And they had heard that I, Gunner, was legenday and unstoppable in the bedroom, after having bilateral angio venoplasty paid for by the tax payers of California, to treat my years of self inflicted cigar smoking and drinking of whiskey.
6. I called heartily with booming and resonant voice (only coughing a couple times account of the cigar) to my trumpeter, to rally my men, to sound the charge. We had only 200 chariots with warriors, boys, and small number of busty women, the remainder of the women were slumbering in exhaustion after the bedroom epic drama of last night.
7. My chariots went into battle, and the fight was extreme. In the heat of the battle, the opposing chariots wheels all came off, as if on signal. Mine rallied and fought to the end, as I had used my lathe, and hydraulic stamping press to generate suitably sized lock washers, to hold the wheels on. (Can be seen, item #2814, on 55 tools blogspot, hosted by Rob H.)

Aristotole say (or was it Confucious) man without lock washer have loose nuts.

You misspelled your screen name, asshat.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"asdfasdf" <as...@asdfasdf.com> wrote in message news:4Iwst.2644$j55...@newsfe09.iad...

Stormin Mormon

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Jun 8, 2013, 8:34:02 AM6/8/13
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Which lubricant should be used on thread, when
tightning a bolt, nut, and lock washer? I'd think that
something with WD-40 would be used. Everyone
knows that WD-40 was designed as a lubricant.
Right, asshat?

.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"asdfasdf" <as...@asdfasdf.com> wrote in message news:4Iwst.2644$j55...@newsfe09.iad...

Stormin Mormon

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Jun 8, 2013, 9:31:05 AM6/8/13
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Most of the applications I have, I'd go with
farm experience rather than a web site that
claims this or that.

Do you ever stack a lock washer and flat
washer? And, how does that turn out?
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
.
"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:kotdc4$p0p$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

dpb

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Jun 8, 2013, 10:48:49 AM6/8/13
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On 6/8/2013 8:31 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
> Most of the applications I have, I'd go with
> farm experience rather than a web site that
> claims this or that.
>
> Do you ever stack a lock washer and flat
> washer? And, how does that turn out?
...

Quite a lot...a wide variety of applications have adjusting slots for
depth settings, etc., that have flat washers to span the slot and lock
washer on top. Works fine...

Again, for the application. I can imagine one can find vibration
regimes/applications where it doesn't suffice.

--

Gunner Asch

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Jun 8, 2013, 1:33:40 PM6/8/13
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ROFLMAO!

Though I dont smoke cigars or drink booze..otherwise it was funny as
hell.


--
"You guess the truth hurts?

Really?

"Hurt" aint the word.

For Liberals, the truth is like salt to a slug.
Sunlight to a vampire.
Raid® to a cockroach.
Sheriff Brody to a shark
Bush to a Liberal

The truth doesn't just hurt. It's painful, like a red hot poker shoved
up their ass. Like sliding down a hundred foot razor blade using their
dick as a brake.

They HATE the truth."

Cydrome Leader

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Jun 9, 2013, 1:14:16 AM6/9/13
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It all depends on what you're doing, what your fastening and why and if
you're doing is falling apart.

for high vibration use, where everything just rattles loose, Nordlock
washers seem to work pretty good. There seems to be magic resonant
frequencies where nuts and bolts just start to fall out, which can be
quite entertaining.







keith...@gmail.com

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Sep 22, 2017, 5:49:59 PM9/22/17
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Depends on the size of your nuts......:)

electronma...@gmail.com

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Jun 26, 2018, 12:16:13 PM6/26/18
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I would disagree. After the washer is collapsed and the bolt is tensioned there is no added force to the bolt frm the washer. Just more space between the bolt head and the work surface.

Cows Are Nice

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Jun 26, 2018, 3:22:30 PM6/26/18
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You are WRONG!
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