Electrical - what's wrong with this?

[Dave, I can't do that]

I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have noway of knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no water. So here's my thinking.

It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run out of water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the pump running until the pump output matches the hole exhaust capability. :)

So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a few months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable issue.

I have one of these and very pleased with it.
http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy-Voltage-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00E945SJG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938092&sr=8-2&keywords=power+meter

I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-515PR-000-Black-Rubber-Grounded/dp/B000FKBZ7M/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938149&sr=8-15&keywords=power+plug

Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and plug the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter regularly and will know if there is trouble brewing.

**Helpful** thoughts?

Dave

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Dave, I can't do that" <dave...@gmail.com> fired this volley in
news:ad9cddb7-5d0b-4565...@googlegroups.com:

> It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
> about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this
> then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

Dave, the first thing (not electrical, sorry) that comes to mind is to
deal differently with what must be a LOT of sand in your water!

Just replacing the bottom 10' of the lift pipe with something more
abrasion-resistant would seem to be a good thing.

I personally don't have a submersible, anymore. 'Had one at my last
house, but now, although our well is 180' deep, the water table is within
10' of the surface, so we use a common above-ground jet pump.

But when I had a submersible, it lasted 23 years in regular residential
service (until we move...), along with some irrigation. We had limestone
formations, not sand.

I'm sure someone else has had this problem, and the well/pump industry
likely has a solution to it. (dunno... something like a 'droppable' HDPE
liner, or something, so it can be serviced without pulling the whole pipe
string). If the HDPE were the full length of the string, it could
probably be replaced by the homeowner at less cost that hiring it out.

Lloyd

[Tim Wescott]

Your fancy wattmeter will only read half of what the pump is actually
using. You probably knew that already.

Make sure your fancy wattmeter can stand the current draw -- a normal
outlet is 10 or 15 amps; your pump may need much more.

All you really need is an instrument that'll show accrued time. If you
could get an old mechanical clock that had a "days" dial then you could
use that. Or just an old mechanical clock, if you looked at it often
enough.

If you don't like my mechanical clock idea, and if your wattmeter gizmo
can't handle the pump current, wire a socket into one leg of the pump
supply as planned (if you want to be Electrically Correct fuse it for 15
A), plug your gizmo into it, and plug a load, like a 100W light bulb,
into the gizmo. Then your total energy usage will be a measure of time.
It won't be perfect, and you'll need to make sure that your light bulb
isn't burnt out, but you'll get a reading on pump usage.

For that matter, if there's someplace in your house close to the pump
circuit where you're to be found often, just put the light there and keep
an eye on it. Even if the pump house is outside, a 100W light bulb
should be visible most of the time.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

[Ned Simmons]

May or may not work, depending on whether the meter looks at the hot
or neutral leg to sense current. It'd be easier to install a
running-time meter in the pressure switch circuit, and less worries
about code compliance.

For example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271092460905

--
Ned Simmons

[Jim Wilkins]

"Dave, I can't do that" <dave...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ad9cddb7-5d0b-4565...@googlegroups.com...

I have a Kill-A-Watt-EZ on the fridge and yesterday I also datalogged
its temperature cycling and run current, to determine the duty cycle
and performance margin at 72F room temperature. It costs me $3.52 per
month right now.

In my experience, doing the same thing in midwinter with my backup
electric heat, this LED that turns on when current flows would be more
useful if you can locate it in your normal living space.
http://www.amazon.com/CR-Magnetics-Remote-Current-Indicator/dp/B006K3O1MY

-jsw

[dpb]

On 07/03/2015 10:53 AM, Dave, I can't do that wrote:
...

> It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe

> about 10" above the pump connection. ...

I'm like Lloyd--whassup w/ that!!!????

I'd fix the problem, not monitor the symptoms.

But, as another one or two said, to monitor the pump what you really
want is simply a run-time indicator.

--

[Tim Wescott]

On Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:04:06 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

> "Dave, I can't do that" <dave...@gmail.com> fired this volley in
> news:ad9cddb7-5d0b-4565...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
>> about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this
>> then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.
>
> Dave, the first thing (not electrical, sorry) that comes to mind is to
> deal differently with what must be a LOT of sand in your water!

D'oh. I was going to mention that, and forgot.

+1. We've replaced our well pump once in our ten years here, and that
was due to rank stupidity, involving a severe water leak that went
unnoticed and pumped the well dry.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

[Dave, I can't do that]

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:04:09 AM UTC-7, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Thanks Lloyd,

Not sand it is just normal water abrasion. It's why pebbles in streams are round. :)

Well is 430-ft, water level last checked 316-ft. I two well-company people seriously doubt it is sand at the level. I asked and they said, normal water erosion. I defer to them and unfortunately no band-aid process available as the pipe is in 21' lengths with couplings joining each length.

Many out here have the problem that's why the well-companies can charge 700-bucks for three hours work. I am looking into continuous pipe and support cables for the next time that way I can lift it myself. It'll only cost $350 to lift it, but I bet they can think of a good reason to charge 700 anyway. Capitalism and a captive market. :)

Thanks anyway though.

[Tim Wescott]

D'oh. I should have known you could get those off the shelf.

[Dave, I can't do that]

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:13:48 AM UTC-7, Tim Wescott wrote:

> Make sure your fancy wattmeter can stand the current draw -- a normal
> outlet is 10 or 15 amps; your pump may need much more.

It's a 240v 1.5hp motor (1134-Watt) and I doubt the meter is directly in series with the load. Might be wrong, have been before. :)

> Or just an old mechanical clock, if you looked at it often

Great idea, thanks, I will see what's at the local junk shops next time in town. Must surely be able to find one of those old flap-clocks.

The pump, supply and connections are 100-feet from the house and not visible and, I would prefer not to be adding 100-Watts extra to the costs.

I am going with the flap-clock, if I can find one. Brilliant thought, thanks again.

Dave

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Dave, I can't do that" <dave...@gmail.com> fired this volley in

news:f5ff5e0c-2623-4240...@googlegroups.com:

> Not sand it is just normal water abrasion. It's why pebbles in streams
> are round. :)

NOSIR! Pebbles in streams are round because they abrade against other
pebbles and sand.

If "normal water erosion" is the culprit, then you either have VERY
alkaline or very acid water. My pump, on a plain string of iron pipe,
lasted 23 years (and probably more) with no such leaks.

Water, all by itself, ain't very abrasive, Dave. Yeah... it can slowly
erode things, but very, very slowly, and certainly not through 3/16" to
1/4" of iron pipe in the time you're quoting.

You have something else going on down there.

Besides... even if 'normal' erosion were the problem, why not seek a
solution to the problem, instead of a way to monitor it?

Lloyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> fired this volley in
news:XnsA4CC9230CAE08ll...@216.168.4.170:

> in the time you're quoting.
>

Well... that was presumptuous, because you didn't QUOTE a time! But if
it's enough of a problem to monitor, it must occur pretty often.

(sorry for the 'mental leap')
L

[Dave, I can't do that]

On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 11:22:17 AM UTC-7, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

> You have something else going on down there.
>
> Besides... even if 'normal' erosion were the problem, why not seek a
> solution to the problem, instead of a way to monitor it?

The ONLY solution is to replace the pipe. Which you may not be aware is quite light wall pipe, more like tubing and also they have PVC pipes as well. Pun intended. As it happens the PVC lasts longer than the gal-steel and I had them put PVC as the bottom piece this time.

I think the well people out here know what they are talking about. I am just the messenger. If they tell me it is not sand and it is water then for me, it is water. There are thousands of wells out here.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Dave, I can't do that" <dave...@gmail.com> fired this volley in

news:00251689-c05d-4b0c...@googlegroups.com:

> The ONLY solution is to replace the pipe. Which you may not be aware
> is quite light wall pipe,

<suggestion_mode>
Whatever... I'm just betting if you did even the most minor bit of
"looking around" instead of asking advice on a usenet forum, you'd
probably find a ready-made solution to your problem.

But it's your problem. Handle it any way you want.

</suggestion_mode>

Lloyd

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 11:10:34 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
<dave...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:04:09 AM UTC-7, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
>
>Thanks Lloyd,
>
>Not sand it is just normal water abrasion. It's why pebbles in streams are round. :)

Pebbles in streams are round because they roll around against each
other in the running water. Water itself is a lubricant, not an
abrasive

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

cl...@snyder.on.ca fired this volley in
news:83sdpah5q7vbk8got...@4ax.com:

> Pebbles in streams are round because they roll around against each
> other in the running water. Water itself is a lubricant, not an
> abrasive

What I said, Clare. But the "Well Guys" (who just MIGHT have a financial
interest in the results... nah...) said "No way -- WATER is an abrasive!".
So it MUST be true! <G>

L

[Jim Wilkins]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA4CCA9CD7F233ll...@216.168.4.170...

This claims that water becomes more corrosive where it mixes with
oxygen:
http://inspectapedia.com/water/Well_Casing_Leaks.php

Differing oxygen levels are said to be the reason why stainless
corrodes in some areas under a boat. The concentration gradient
creates a weak battery.

-jsw

-jsw

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> fired this volley in news:mn70j0$k1e
$1...@dont-email.me:

> This claims that water becomes more corrosive where it mixes with
> oxygen:
> http://inspectapedia.com/water/Well_Casing_Leaks.php
>
> Differing oxygen levels are said to be the reason why stainless
> corrodes in some areas under a boat. The concentration gradient
> creates a weak battery.

If his pump is moving air as well as water, there's a LOT more wrong than
just water 'abrasion'.

This whole subject is silly (no... STUPID). You solve the problem, not
'monitor the problem.

Our friggin' government is in LOVE with "monitoring the problems", but
they FIX nothing. 'Seems like this is a 'government solution'.

duh...
L

[John B.]

Nope. Stainless corrodes because of a lack of oxygen in the water,
while the article seemed to say that water near the surface contained
more oxygen.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/articles/marine-corrosion.asp
(crevice corrosion)
or
http://www.passagemaker.com/channels/stainless-steel-and-corrosion/

But as water is made up of oxygen, in part, I suspect that the term
should be "free oxygen".
--
cheers,

John B.

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/3/2015 2:53 PM, Dave, I can't do that wrote:
> On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 11:22:17 AM UTC-7, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
>
>> You have something else going on down there.

...

Indeed!

> ...

> I think the well people out here know what they are talking about. I am just the messenger. If they tell me it is not sand and it is water then for me, it is water. There are thousands of wells out here.
>

There are thousands of wells around here, too, and I have never heard of
a pipe being worn through. I've been in my house 42 years and have
replaced the well pipe twice, but not because of any holes.

As for the well people, I'd guess that it's what they've always heard
and nobody has a better (real) answer.

Bob

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com> fired this volley in
news:u65epalkrub66pug8...@4ax.com:

> But as water is made up of oxygen, in part, I suspect that the term
> should be "free oxygen".

As an ersatz chemist, I'd have to say "dissolved oxygen".

Lloyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Bob Engelhardt <BobEng...@comcast.net> fired this volley in
news:mn75r...@news6.newsguy.com:

> There are thousands of wells around here, too, and I have never heard of
> a pipe being worn through. I've been in my house 42 years and have
> replaced the well pipe twice, but not because of any holes.

ALL the properties within a 10 mile radius north and east and 28 miles
south and west are on wells. Tens of thousands.

The cited problem is NOT a problem unless you're pumping sand or have been
sold tinfoil tubing in replacement for "pipe".

Lloyd

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The company I work for every morning insures a lot of "well people",
as well as a lot of "alternative health practitioners."
They both have about the same level of "real" knowledge, on the
whole.
They are all "good people" - the well people drill a lot of good
wells, and the alternative health practitioners - RMTs in particular,
give a lot of people pain relief - but their explanations of how
things work generally have very little scientific basis.

[Jim Wilkins]

"John B." <johnbs...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:u65epalkrub66pug8...@4ax.com...

Here is the relevant corrosion mechanism those articles omitted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_cell
"Concentration cell corrosion occurs when two or more areas of a metal
surface are in contact with different concentrations of the same
solution."

-jsw

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2015-07-03, Dave, I can't do that <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have noway
> of knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no water. So
> here's my thinking.

> It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe
> about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this then
> drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

> This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run
> out of water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the pump
> running until the pump output matches the hole exhaust capability. :)

> So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe
> replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a few
> months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable issue.

Is it possible to get glass-lined pipe, so the holes won't
appear? I know that there are very short ones for going between a hot
water heater and the lines, to minimize electrolytic damage.

> I have one of these and very pleased with it.
> http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy-Voltage-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00E945SJG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938092&sr=8-2&keywords=power+meter

Looks like a clone of the Kill-A-Watt which has been sold for
some time now. I have one, but the maximum current is 15A, and your
pump motor may well draw more than that -- since it has a lot of work to
do to get the water up to usable level.

And -- the KWH readings would be off by a factor of two, as it
is assuming 120 VAC not 240 VAC.

And the manual for mine suggests that there are 240VAC versions
as well.

O.K. Here is someone who had them, but is currently out of
stock:

<http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Meter-100A-Volt-3-Wire/dp/B00GMZRXE8>

This one, however, can handle 240 VAC and current up to 50A.

<http://www.amazon.com/Efergy-Elite-Wireless-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B003XOXU02/ref=pd_sbs_328_3/179-7600238-8684324?ie=UTF8&refRID=033ZF6P6N7RMW17Z397Q>

> I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
> http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-515PR-000-Black-Rubber-Grounded/dp/B000FKBZ7M/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938149&sr=8-15&keywords=power+plug

> Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and
> plug the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter regularly
> and will know if there is trouble brewing.

This is a bit of a kluge, and rather dangerous as it would
interrupt only *one* side of the 240 VAC when unplugged.

However, the second one which I pointed to is still sold, and is
two parts -- one part in the breaker box (where you can clamp it on the
leads for your pump breaker's output only), *and* you can read it from
elsewhere in the house.

It is somewhat more expensive, but I think worth it over time.

I don't have the manual for it, but I suspect that you will want
to do something like reset it once a month after noting that month's
usage and perhaps keep a log of how much, too. Probably not a bad idea
to change the receiver's battery just after noting your reading and
before resetting.

An alternative might be to have a relay sensing the current
drawn by the motor and starting a timer, and if the pump runs more than
a certain pre-set time, to sound an alarm -- or, (with another timer
started when the current drops out) sound an alarm if the pump re-starts
too soon.

> **Helpful** thoughts?

I hope that these will be helpful.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> fired this volley in news:mn7cqm$2di
$1...@dont-email.me:

> Here is the relevant corrosion mechanism those articles omitted:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_cell
> "Concentration cell corrosion occurs when two or more areas of a metal
> surface are in contact with different concentrations of the same
> solution."
>

Jim,
First, the phenonemnon you're referring to almost never happens in a
'mixing' environment. Second, the degree of 'concentration' must be
significant -- not horribly high, but higher than what you'd get from
differences in the stream in a well.

Third... nah... not in a well. You don't see those sorts of things going
on in a water well intended for human consumption.

This case is pure-and-simple mechanical abrasion from particulates. I'll
bet there's a 4' deep 'sand pack' in that lift pipe before it turns on,
which gets veritably BLASTED against the side of the pipe for a second or
two every time the them pump comes on.

Lloyd

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 4 Jul 2015 01:29:40 GMT, "DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com>
wrote:

The 120 volt one won't work It needs to measure line to neutral - and
the 240 volt pump does not use the neutral. You need a 240 volt
kill-a- watt or clone. They are readilly available in the UK and
Europe where 240 line to line is atandard

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2015-07-03, Dave, I can't do that <dave...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:13:48 AM UTC-7, Tim Wescott wrote:
>
>> Make sure your fancy wattmeter can stand the current draw -- a normal
>> outlet is 10 or 15 amps; your pump may need much more.

> It's a 240v 1.5hp motor (1134-Watt) and I doubt the meter is directly
> in series with the load. Might be wrong, have been before. :)

O.K. Less than 5 Amps then (except perhaps during starting
surges).

But the typical Kill-A-Watt both measures the voltage (across
the neutral-to-hot span) and the current delivered through the hot. The
latter could be with the current fed through a shunt, or the hot wire
threaded through a current transformer. But it *does* have to measure
the current as well as the voltage to calculate the watts load.

>> Or just an old mechanical clock, if you looked at it often

> Great idea, thanks, I will see what's at the local junk shops next
> time in town. Must surely be able to find one of those old flap-clocks.

> The pump, supply and connections are 100-feet from the house and not
> visible and, I would prefer not to be adding 100-Watts extra to the
> costs.

Presumably, the power comes from the breaker box in the house,
so a relay could sense the current and turn on a lamp -- or a clock.
And the lamp doesn't have to be a big 100W one, a small LED light could
be sufficient to see. Mount it where you look when sitting down a lot.
Perhaps over a TV if you watch a lot of TV.

> I am going with the flap-clock, if I can find one. Brilliant thought, thanks again.

Best if you control it with a relay, so it can be in the house
where you can see it frequently -- and perhaps reset it to 00:00 every
night.

[Jim Wilkins]

"DoN. Nichols" <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:slrnmpedo3.9v...@Katana.d-and-d.com...

The software that comes with the Radio Shack PC-interfaced meter
220-0087 auto-scales the graph of its readings on a computer, so you
can connect it to a clamp-on amp probe or split-core current
transformer
http://www.amazon.com/0-01-120A-0-5M-Split-core-Current-Transformer/dp/B005FIFT4E

on the pump lead and record the pump cycling on and off.
http://comingsoon.radioshack.com/radioshack-true-rms-46-range-digital-multimeter/2200087.html

Try it in the store, they don't have the best quality control history.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message

news:XnsA4CCDC9B542D1ll...@216.168.4.170...

http://inspectapedia.com/water/Well_Casing_Leaks.php
Did you notice this:
"On the other hand, as corrosion in a well casing may be local to the
usual top of the static head in the well, the repair sleeve approach
may make sense."
That's the outer casing where water meets air, not within the delivery
pipe.

-jsw

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:53:06 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"

<dave...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have noway of knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no water. So here's my thinking.
>
>It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe about 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this then drains down the water head so the pump needs to run again.

So why haven't you put a rubber baby buggy bumper around the pipe
there during one of these repair sessions, Dave? This would head off
the repair instead of just letting you know when it wore through. I
have seen bumpers you can install on the flexi poly line so it doesn't
wear through. (Where the hell did I see that?) Googlit.

>This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run out of water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the pump running until the pump output matches the hole exhaust capability. :)
>
>So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a few months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable issue.
>

>I have one of these and very pleased with it.
>http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy-Voltage-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00E945SJG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938092&sr=8-2&keywords=power+meter

Wattmeters are great. I have a 3P Kill-a-Watt and check every new toy
I buy with it. It's interesting that all of the 9w LED bulbs are only
taking anywhere from 4.5 to 6w of draw, but they're bloody bright, so
it's a moot point to me.

>I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
>http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-515PR-000-Black-Rubber-Grounded/dp/B000FKBZ7M/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938149&sr=8-15&keywords=power+plug
>
>Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and plug the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter regularly and will know if there is trouble brewing.
>

>**Helpful** thoughts?

I'd rather fix the problem NOW than just see it developing sooner.
How about you?

--
Another belief of mine: that everyone else my age is an adult,
whereas I am merely in disguise.
-- Margaret Atwood

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 11:10:34 -0700 (PDT), "Dave, I can't do that"
<dave...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:04:09 AM UTC-7, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
>
>Thanks Lloyd,
>
>Not sand it is just normal water abrasion. It's why pebbles in streams are round. :)

This is an INTERNAL abrasion? OK, forget what I already wrote.

>Well is 430-ft, water level last checked 316-ft. I two well-company people seriously doubt it is sand at the level. I asked and they said, normal water erosion. I defer to them and unfortunately no band-aid process available as the pipe is in 21' lengths with couplings joining each length.
>
>Many out here have the problem that's why the well-companies can charge 700-bucks for three hours work. I am looking into continuous pipe and support cables for the next time that way I can lift it myself. It'll only cost $350 to lift it, but I bet they can think of a good reason to charge 700 anyway. Capitalism and a captive market. :)

If it's flex, why can't you lift it yourself? Between the drop pipe,
wiring, and safety rope, "it shouldn't be too hard" <g>, especially
with a hole at the bottom, allowing all that water weight to go away.

G'luck.

I'm considering installing a pitless adapter so I can sink the manual
pump into the well casing alongside my submersible drop pipe. I
already have the new lead-free brass foot valve, PVC pump, and PVC
pipes. Water level is 18 or so feet.

[Larry Jaques]

It's micro-sand in the water, vs. granular.

[Gunner Asch]

I certainly agree with Lloyd

Gunner, oil field trash for 40 yrs

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 18:00:57 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>

Which is why Zinc anodes are placed..so the electrolysis eats the zinc
and not the steels

[John B.]

Probably but as water is, what? 1/3rd oxygen. "Dihydrogen monoxide",
which is terrible stuff. I read somewhere that everyone that consumes
even tiny amounts is either already dead, or will die.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2015 21:29:52 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

Yes, Yes. But the common "crevice corrosion" that effects stainless
stuff below the water line on a boat is something different. It is a
dissolving of the protective coating on the surface of the
"stainless". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crevice_corrosion

I suspect that finding a body of water that varied in concentration of
the same solution within the length of a boat might be difficult.
Certainly the ocean is never still :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com> fired this volley in

news:vhgfpa5rdlcu8hcdv...@4ax.com:

> I read somewhere that everyone that consumes
> even tiny amounts is either already dead, or will die.
>

Some chemists say that the correct term is not "dihydrogen monoxide", but
for specific reasons, Hydrogen Hydroxide.

H(OH), in sufficient concentration, will also prevent oxygen from being
absorbed by the lungs. Many people have died from H(OH)'s effects on
oxygen absorption.

It's dangerous, damaging stuff! Hundreds of Billions of Dollars worth of
damage to property and infrastructure can be attributed to exposure to
it.

It's even been known to wear holes through iron well pipes.

Lloyd

[dpb]

On 07/03/2015 1:53 PM, Dave, I can't do that wrote:
> On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 11:22:17 AM UTC-7, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
>

>> You have something else going on down there.
>>
>> Besides... even if 'normal' erosion were the problem, why not seek a
>> solution to the problem, instead of a way to monitor it?
>

> The ONLY solution is to replace the pipe. Which you may not be aware
> is quite light wall pipe, more like tubing and also they have PVC
> pipes as well. Pun intended. As it happens the PVC lasts longer than

> thegal-steel and I had them put PVC as the bottom piece this time.
...

Why would you not run at least Sch40? The well here also pumps some
micro-sand but has never come close to ever wearing thru a wall and has
only had one (corrosion) pinhole leak in the time since it was drilled
in '64 and that wasn't until mid-80s or so. Typically used here is Sch
80 PVC now with the top joint galvanized for the strength at the upper
connection...

At the location you're talking, sounds to me like missing a snubber as
somebody else mentioned and it's more than likely not the water causing
the wear but the flexibility and the pipe is rubbing on the casing when
it starts from the starting torque reaction...

Either way, there certainly ought to be a solution other than monitoring
for leaks and replacing so frequently...

--

[Bob La Londe]

That quite a deep well if I am reading it right. I've running 80' of
schedule 80 PVC with a pump hanging off the bottom. (averages 30'sof head
above the pump) I did have to replace the cheap pump the home owner
installed when they built the house after about 10 years give or take, but
the pipe looked perfect top to bottom. I pulled the pump and replaced it
myself using a couple wood worker clamps and a scissor left to pull it up
20' at a time. It was more tedious than anything. And of course I had to
learn about replacing well pumps and wiring them up so the connections were
water proof.

Years ago I helped a buddy pull a deep wind mill pump with steel pipe to
replace the leather gasket. We used a lever, some chains to grab the pipe,
and and a couple pieces of steel bar bolted together around the pipe to
secure it between lifts. We unscrewed each section as we got it above the
sleeve. It wasn't hard particularly. Like pulling my pump it was just
tedious manual labor requiring a little muscle.





--
--
Bob La Londe
The Security Consultant
Licenses ROC103044 & ROC103047

*******************************
*******************************
Side Business:
CNC Molds N Stuff
www.cncmolds.com

Day Job:
The Security Consultant
www.yumaalarm.com

Hobbies:
Honesty in Airguns
www.allairgunners.com

Fishing Arizona and the Colorado River
www.YumaBassMan.com
******************************
******************************

"Dave, I can't do that" <dave...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ad9cddb7-5d0b-4565...@googlegroups.com...

> I don't mean technically or Code, but we have a well and we have noway of
> knowing when there is a pump problem until there is no water. So here's my
> thinking.
>
> It is pretty common for the water to wear a hole in the lowest pipe about
> 10" above the pump connection. When the pumps shuts off, this then drains
> down the water head so the pump needs to run again.
>

> This happens in pump-cycles until the hole is big enough and we run out of
> water. We are not aware of the increased frequency of the pump running
> until the pump output matches the hole exhaust capability. :)
>
> So, not only do we have to pay $700 to have the pump lifted and pipe
> replaced, we will have paid a bunch on wasted power as it can be a few
> months before the hole is big enough to cause a noticeable issue.
>
> I have one of these and very pleased with it.
> http://www.amazon.com/TS-836A-Energy-Voltage-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00E945SJG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938092&sr=8-2&keywords=power+meter
>

> I am thinking of getting one of these and it's female counterpart.
> http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-000-515PR-000-Black-Rubber-Grounded/dp/B000FKBZ7M/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1435938149&sr=8-15&keywords=power+plug
>
> Then wire the plug set into one leg of the pump 240 and Neutral and plug
> the meter in between. I can check the Cost on the meter regularly and will
> know if there is trouble brewing.
>
> **Helpful** thoughts?
>

> Dave

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

"Bob La Londe" <no...@none.com99> fired this volley in
news:mn9pu3$3dh$1...@dont-email.me:

> Years ago I helped a buddy pull a deep wind mill pump with steel pipe
> to replace the leather gasket. We used a lever, some chains to grab
> the pipe, and and a couple pieces of steel bar bolted together around
> the pipe to secure it between lifts. We unscrewed each section as we
> got it above the sleeve. It wasn't hard particularly. Like pulling
> my pump it was just tedious manual labor requiring a little muscle.
>
>

I pulled 180' of sch-80 steel with a 5hp submersible on the end of the
string -- myself, alone, without a well rig, much as you did.

I erected a short derrick of wood and used a chain tackle. As you say...
just tedious. It took me several hours, but the only time I broke a
sweat was trying to loosen some of the couplings. (gotta get some longer
pipe wrenches! <G>)

With the same 8-ton chain tackle, I can't imagine it being any harder to
lift a 360' string... just longer.

Lloyd

[Martin Eastburn]

Even worse is H2S Hydrogen Sulfide.

It is as small as water, can't mechanically filter it.
It can out gas from water and attack the lungs and blood system.
Quick painful death. e.g. poison gas well.

The only filtration method is over silver metal. Or massive
oxygenation. Banks of water towers that spray fine mist.

The Hydrogen is so small it invades iron and steel and plastic
pipe. In Fe materials - rust and exfoliation occurs. Death of
a water system by a thousand cuts. The sulfur ionizes to SO2 rotten egg
gas. It helps rot out copper pipes and by stealing Oxygen
from the water, More hydrogen kills pipes. The free oxygen attacks
the pipe and creates FeO a black powder with a metallic slick on
ceramic.....
Martin

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Martin Eastburn <lion...@consolidated.net> fired this volley in
news:UE%lx.145051$ly2....@fx01.iad:

> Even worse is H2S Hydrogen Sulfide.

In order -- yes, it's worse.

>
> It is as small as water, can't mechanically filter it.
> It can out gas from water and attack the lungs and blood system.
> Quick painful death. e.g. poison gas well.
>
> The only filtration method is over silver metal. Or massive
> oxygenation. Banks of water towers that spray fine mist.

Silver is hardly the only way, or even the preferred way to remove it.
Using a silver-bearing filter requires very expensive recycling of the
silver sulfide created, and it's a pain as well as expensive.

H2S can be removed by chlorination (which some folks don't like),
converting the sulfur to insoluble sulfides that CAN be filtered
mechanically. It can also be removed by so-called "manganese green
sand" filters. Or, as you suggested above, by aeration.

That method doesn't USE oxygenation, although that occurs as a byproduct
of the spraying. H2S has a high vapor pressure. Break the water up into
small enough droplets or thin enough sheets, and H2S will gas-off by
itself. Residence time in the tank with the top surface exposed to
circulating air after the first aeration improves the degree of
'desulfurization'. The downside of the method is that it requires two
pumps: One for lift-and-spraying, the other to move water from the
desulfuring tank to the pressure tank.

No "banks of water towers" are required. We have strong "sulfur water"
here. For residential service, a single 500-gallon 'square' (high as
wide) tank (heavily ventilated and screened) with four 'sheeting
nozzles' spraying the fresh well water over the top, and plenty of air
circulation serves fine to remove all of it.

>
> The Hydrogen is so small it invades iron and steel and plastic
> pipe. In Fe materials - rust and exfoliation occurs. Death of
> a water system by a thousand cuts. The sulfur ionizes to SO2
> rotten egg gas.

Nope... "rotten egg gas" is H2S. SO2 is "sour" (acid in smell and taste)
If SO2 is released or created, it combines with water to form sulfurOUS
acid, that is pretty corrosive. It's not a natural product of sulfur
water aeration, and seldom is present in well water.

I will agree that 'sulfur water' rots pipes out faster than 'good' water,
but only if it GETS INTO your COPPER or brass pipes. We remove the H2S
before it gets into anything but the iron lift pipe and first pump (iron,
also). HS2 doesn't tend to affect iron much after that very thin 'black
layer' you mention forms.

Mine's only about 17 years old right now...still going strong, though; no
leaks, no corrosion. And when I had the lift pump off for replacement
(due to lightning) about a year ago, NO visible diminishment of the wall
thickness of the pipe.

Lloyd

[John B.]

I'm not sure about treating water but "sour gas", i.e. hydrocarbon gas
containing significant amounts of H2S, is usually treated using amines
in trayed columns which can also remove CO2. The system uses an
amine-water mix as an absorbent.

By the way, H2S in small concentrations smells like rotten eggs, but
in concentrations dangerous to life it deadens the sense of smell so
it effectively has no odor :-)

>No "banks of water towers" are required. We have strong "sulfur water"
>here. For residential service, a single 500-gallon 'square' (high as
>wide) tank (heavily ventilated and screened) with four 'sheeting
>nozzles' spraying the fresh well water over the top, and plenty of air
>circulation serves fine to remove all of it.
>>
>> The Hydrogen is so small it invades iron and steel and plastic
>> pipe. In Fe materials - rust and exfoliation occurs. Death of
>> a water system by a thousand cuts. The sulfur ionizes to SO2
>> rotten egg gas.
>
>Nope... "rotten egg gas" is H2S. SO2 is "sour" (acid in smell and taste)
>If SO2 is released or created, it combines with water to form sulfurOUS
>acid, that is pretty corrosive. It's not a natural product of sulfur
>water aeration, and seldom is present in well water.
>
>I will agree that 'sulfur water' rots pipes out faster than 'good' water,
>but only if it GETS INTO your COPPER or brass pipes. We remove the H2S
>before it gets into anything but the iron lift pipe and first pump (iron,
>also). HS2 doesn't tend to affect iron much after that very thin 'black
>layer' you mention forms.
>
>Mine's only about 17 years old right now...still going strong, though; no
>leaks, no corrosion. And when I had the lift pump off for replacement
>(due to lightning) about a year ago, NO visible diminishment of the wall
>thickness of the pipe.
>
>Lloyd

--
cheers,

John B.

[dpb]

On 07/03/2015 1:53 PM, Dave, I can't do that wrote:
...

> I think the well people out here know what they are talking about. ...

I wonder if instead they simply say something and if the customer buys
it and continues to pony up and simply replace what isn't working well
with the same thing it's no skin off their noses...

Have you actually _seen_ and inspected one of these failed sections? I
suppose it would be too much to think you'd have one around and could
post pic's? Is it _really_ abrasion-thinning from the _INSIDE_ of the
pipe or, as I'm guessing outside?

--

[Martin Eastburn]

Small well Lloyd The hydrogen is small and gets into iron standpipes
of the firehouse and valves as well as black iron pipes in homes ....
The black is black oxide. It flakes off, being super fine and makes
the pipe wall thinner.

The volume of an 8" small pipe is larger than your well. I'm talking
about city size wells for filling tall towers.

The volume is much higher than you figure. Our little town doesn't
have the problem, but the main pipes are running 600 PSI in a 16"
pipe. We have new building near our place - across the wire fence..
They drove heavy equipment over a pipe that jammed down into the
main trunk. It was better than a fountain on the 4th.

Martin

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Martin Eastburn <lion...@consolidated.net> fired this volley in

news:jhlnx.116376$DJ3....@fx05.iad:

> he volume is much higher than you figure. Our little town doesn't
> have the problem, but the main pipes are running 600 PSI in a 16"
> pipe.

I don't know what you figure I figure... I didn't argue with hydrogen
embrittlement. At 600psi, all sorts of things happen that don't at lower
pressures.

What I argued with was someone's (yours?) statement that S02 was the
"rotten egg smell". It's not.

Lloyd

[Martin Eastburn]

Whatever.
Martin

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Martin Eastburn <lion...@consolidated.net> fired this volley in

news:NMGnx.113051$546....@fx06.iad:

> Whatever.

Do I correctly interpret your "whatever" to say that in your opinion SO2
IS the 'rotten eggs smell'. Or is it some other mental shrug you're
doing.

If you are maintaing that, I'll give you a simple experiment that will
generate all the SO2 you want, so you can smell it, and see if it reminds
you of rotten eggs.

Just make a pile of about a teaspoonful flowers of sulfur on a fireproof
surface. Heaping it up as high as possible will help.

Gently play a torch flame over the pile. It'll start to look molten in
drops, then turn a reddish color, then brown, the parts will go back to
yellow and catch fire with a faint blue flame. It will flicker and lick,
and you may have to keep the torch at the ready to keep it burning.

The gas coming off that blue fire is sulfur dioxide. Take a SMALL sniff,
and get back with us on your impressions.

Lloyd

[Jim Wilkins]

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:XnsA4D34AF5194BEll...@216.168.4.170...

A lead-acid battery smells slightly of SO2.but not H2S with the filler
caps off.

[Martin Eastburn]

This isn't worth the work to prove anything. I know what kills me
on an easy day. And I have talked to large and small developers of
housing and work sites. Posion gas is dangerous and starts out as
rotten eggs and then you loose the smell.

You are not allergic to sulphur like I. I'm sensitive to it.
I'm talking about H2S not So2. And that is the difference.

Martin

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave, I can't do that" wrote:
>

> On Friday, July 3, 2015 at 9:13:48 AM UTC-7, Tim Wescott wrote:
>
> > Make sure your fancy wattmeter can stand the current draw -- a normal
> > outlet is 10 or 15 amps; your pump may need much more.
>
> It's a 240v 1.5hp motor (1134-Watt) and I doubt the meter is directly in series with the load. Might be wrong, have been before. :)
>

> > Or just an old mechanical clock, if you looked at it often
>
> Great idea, thanks, I will see what's at the local junk shops next time in town. Must surely be able to find one of those old flap-clocks.
>
> The pump, supply and connections are 100-feet from the house and not visible and, I would prefer not to be adding 100-Watts extra to the costs.
>

> I am going with the flap-clock, if I can find one. Brilliant thought, thanks again.
>

> Dave

This is a lot better than an old clock:

<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Standco-Type-T-41-AC-Running-Time-Meter-2-/400822185748>

[Michael A. Terrell]

Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> So why haven't you put a rubber baby buggy bumper around the pipe
> there during one of these repair sessions, Dave? This would head off
> the repair instead of just letting you know when it wore through. I
> have seen bumpers you can install on the flexi poly line so it doesn't
> wear through. (Where the hell did I see that?) Googlit.

<http://www.ebay.com/itm/TORQUE-STOP-ARRESTOR-WATER-WELL-SUBMERSIBLE-PUMP-WIRE-PROTECTION-ARRESTER-/271552325722>

Lowe's has them, on their website.

[Larry Jaques]

LORDY, they don't give those away, do they?

--
My desire to be well-informed is currently
at odds with my desire to remain sane. --Sipkess

[Michael A. Terrell]

Larry Jaques wrote:

>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> >Larry Jaques wrote:
> >>
> >> So why haven't you put a rubber baby buggy bumper around the pipe
> >> there during one of these repair sessions, Dave? This would head off
> >> the repair instead of just letting you know when it wore through. I
> >> have seen bumpers you can install on the flexi poly line so it doesn't
> >> wear through. (Where the hell did I see that?) Googlit.
> >
> ><http://www.ebay.com/itm/TORQUE-STOP-ARRESTOR-WATER-WELL-SUBMERSIBLE-PUMP-WIRE-PROTECTION-ARRESTER-/271552325722>
> >
> >Lowe's has them, on their website.
>
> LORDY, they don't give those away, do they?

$17, compared to the price of all the other parts?

[Larry Jaques]

No, seventeen bucks for a little piece of rubber and a pair of hose
clamps. Ootrageous, it is.