moving a heavy lathe?
Bernard Arnest
Still following leads for local lathes, but I'll find something
shortly, and when I do, I'll need to move it.
Whether 100 miles or halfa mile, I'll want to load it onto a truck,
drive it, and lower it off. I'm looking mostly at lathes that seem to
be in the neighborhood of a ton. One I'm looking at is 3 tons, if it
doesn't climb too much in price.
I have 3 potential locations. One has a fairly shallow ramp, and
then a freight elevator to the 3rd floor where it would be put. The
other too have steeper ramps. I think stairs can be avoided with all,
luckily :-)
Anyway. Assume they can raise it onto the truck bed where I'm
picking it up. I have no car, though if absolutely necessary could
look into friends with trucks, but I won't have much luck very fast.
Will a common uhaul handle 1-3 tons? Mostly likely just 1. I'm on a
campus. If I find a department with a forklift, am in luck? Can they
pick it off the truck and lower it onto a pallet jack? Should the
pallet jack be powered? What is the maximum grade that would be safe
for ramps; would 20 degrees be OK?
If they can't raise it onto a truck bed there, what do I do?
I've never done anything like this. With brute force, 3 of us
carried a 350lb bandsaw down a flat of steps, but that was as heavy as
I've worked with. Pure muscle wont' handle this.
thanks for the help!
-Bernard Arnest
Christopher Tidy
> Hi,
>
> Still following leads for local lathes, but I'll find something
> shortly, and when I do, I'll need to move it.
<snip>
Hi Bernard,
First of all, be careful and don't do anything if you're unsure what
might happen. A good idea if you're short of equipment is to buy the
lathe from a dealer and get them to deliver. Sometimes even the
professionals find moving machines hard. I had a power hacksaw delivered
which took us about 4 hours to move 50 yards, and the delivery guy was
very experienced. It's just that the truck was too big to turn the
corner and the forklift sank in some soft ground.
If you do have to move it yourself, try to make friends with some guys
who have equipment and have done this kind of thing before. Don't cheap
out and use a truck which isn't big enough. U-Haul can tell you what
their trucks can carry. Make sure you have suitable tie-downs and that
the centre of gravity of the load isn't too high. Don't try lifting it
by hand. Don't stand underneath it while it's being lifted, or anywhere
where it could fall on you. If it falls, don't try to catch it. If you
have to move it up a ramp, use a winch. All common sense really, but if
you aren't sure, ask. This is where the experienced friends come in.
You might like to take a look at this account of moving a fair-sized
lathe, which was posted at rec.crafts.metalworking a few years ago:
http://www.morrisconservatory.com/bbryan/jr/index.html
By the way, do you study at MIT? If so, you may well be able to use a
machine shop free if you talk to the right people, and it would be much
simpler than buying a 1-ton lathe. I spent a summer studying at MIT and
I can think of at least five machine shops on campus. If you haven't
already asked, it would be worthwhile doing. Two great guys I worked
with are Gerry Wentworth and Mark Belanger at the Laboratory for
Manufacturing and Productivity. You can tell them I sent you if you like
- they'll probably just about remember me as the English guy who worked
there a few summers back!
Good luck!
Best wishes,
Chris Tidy
John
Hi Bernard,
Everything that Chris says is good advice. You are dealing with
something heavy enough to seriously hurt you here, maybe even kill you.
The most important piece of equipment you can have is experience,
preferably combined with inteligence. Note, the two don't always go
together. You will onviously need to know the weight of the machine.
You can look at it and guess for ever and be very wrong. If you do it
that way, add at least 50% for error. Then you must use equipment rated
to lift/carry that weight. Remember that slings used at an angle are in
greater tension than the load. Again, if you don't know the values,
double the weight. Also remember the centre of gravity is not visually
obvious so if you're using more than one sling, assume one is taking
all of the weight.
There are things that can help and many are fairly cheap.
You will need a way of strapping it onto the truck. Ratchet tie downs
are the best. Rope can be used but needs a knowledge of knots and
roping. If you get tie downs, get the 2" ones. They can also be used
for lifting and their length can be varied while holding the load.
Again, find out how they work BEFORE you use them. They have features
that are not always obvious.
Various blocks of wood are always usefull as are a selection of crow
bars. try to get a variety of sizes of both. Bars need to be 3 - 5 ft
long.
I'm in UK but we have cheap wire rope winches in 2T & 4T ratings. Again
read the instructions. I cannot overstate this.
Look after yourself. Steel toe boots have saved me more times than I
remember. They are also usefull for kicking blocks of wood etc. Rigger
gloves may be good as well.
Some lengths of steel pipe make good rollers. You will need at least 3,
preferably 4. Small diameter is difficult to push but big means a
higher lift that's further to fall. I find 1" is about right.
If you sling the machine, remember that sharp steel will cut a rope or
sling very easily and that can drop the load. This will always happen
at the highest lift and the most difficult time.
Do you have hydraulic engine cranes available for hire? They can lift
and carry a load like this. Again, don't skimp on the spec. Check the
lift height as well especially if you need to get it of a truck.
Finally, why do you want this lathe there? Will you need to get it out
in a years time? This is a lot of work and risk if it's only for a
short term gain.
If you do this, ALWAYS keep looking for things that could go wrong and
try to make sure they can't or that you're not in the way. Don't EVER
put any part of you (finger, toes) under the lathe.
Good luck.
John
J. Clarke
To put this in perspective, 1 ton is an "average" car, 3 tons is a large
SUV. If you are not _sure_ what you are about, get help--this _can_ and if
you let it get away from you probably _will_ maim or kill not only you but
others as well--if it gets up a good head of steam rolling down a ramp a 3
ton lathe can go right through a fairly substantial wall, and falling from
the third floor it could do a Hell of a lot of damage to whatever it
landded on.
Are you _sure_ the locations you are looking at can support a tool this
size? If you don't have in your hand a document that states that the floor
can hold concentrated loads of 3 tons or more then assume that it
cannot--if it knocks a hole in one floor it's probably not going to stop
until it hits solid ground.
If you're determined to move it yourself then before you start, _know_ how
you are going to move it through every stage and how you are going to
_control_ its movement (making it move and controlling its movement are
different things--think "engine" and "brakes").
You're posting from an MIT account--I'm assuming you're in Boston. If so,
go by the MIT library and look for books on "rigging"--you should find
quite a lot--much of it will be about the rigging of boats, some will be
about the rigging of stages, but there should be a good deal about rigging
for industrial use--this is what you want to get up to speed on.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
RoyJ
equipment through confined spaces can be very dangerous. I move some of
my own machinery, I consult with a univeristy lab manager over his
latest aquistions. Anything over 600 or 800 pounds and he hires a rigger.
First off, lathes are top heavy, they will tip over without to much
provication. Even jacking it up a few inches to put planks under can be
dicey. I'd make a skid of some type, bolt the lathe down solidly to
that. Something on the order of 4x4 posts on the ground with 2"x12"
cross pieces and tied together with 1/2" bolts. Exact dimentions need to
be compatable with the lathe, doorways, and forklifts.
Ramps are killers. Steep ramps are REAL killers. Do the math, a 20
degree ramp with have a pull force of 34% of the weight of the object.
(sin of 20 degrees) That is 700 pounds to pull your 1 ton lathe up the
ramp. A shallower 10 degree ramp is still 350 pounds pushing down hill,
if you let it loose it will really gain speed fast.
Freight elevators need to be inspected carefully. Many times they are
called "freight" elevators because you are allowed to bang into the
walls, not because they are rated any higher in capacity. Your
facilities people can tell you actual ratings. Also check the door
widths, swing radius, lengths, etc etc.
You are much better off with a low trailer than a truck. I'd rent a
trailer AND a truck to pull the trailer before I'd try and get the lathe
up on a truck bed and back down. The only exception is if your
destination has some sort of matching dock height.
When all is said and done, I do NOT RECCOMEND you doing this without a
least some strong supervison by someone who knows what they are doing. 1
to 3 tons of machinery is a lot of metal. You don't get nicks and
scratches from your mistakes, you get crushed bones and sheared off
fingers. Sorry for being graphic.
I'd also suggest that your facilities people would take an interest in
your moving things around. It may be a helpful response and they loan
you equipment or it may be a "don't even THINK about THAT" response. In
any case, they don't like surprises like stuck elevators and similar.
rigger
I'm happy to again see someone who isn't afraid to get their hands a
little dirty and save some money in the process. On the other hand if
you've never done this before and don't know the people you're working
with or the equipment available you may find it more expedient to add
the cost of professional movers to your cost estimate. Perhaps get
some estimates from insured riggers?
There are many safe ways to move machinery, none of which is beyond the
ability of the average person using common sense and care. That said
there are, I feel, too many variables at this time to give accurate
advise specific to your potential move. What will work for a 2000#
lathe will, most likely, be less than ideal for a 6000# lathe.
Please decide which lathe you'll be purchasing and re-post to this
group and I and other experienced folk will be happy to respond. If
you decide to do this please include full details of the machine's
destination facilities and, of course, the machine itself. Pay close
attention to advise offered here or elsewhere; this is, after all, the
internet.
I've moved many machines onto (and off of) college and high school
campuses and have found (with few exceptions) conditions to be poor.
You'd think, with all the intellectual power available, someone would
have the foresight to plan the facilities to accommodate the movement
of large pieces of equipment. :(
dennis
in nca
Mike Berger
be used too. If you don't have either, rent a pair of rol-a-lifts
and use a winch and ramps. The rol-a-lifts are similar to piano lifts,
but much better for moving machinery.
Kelly Jones
"Bernard Arnest" <bar...@mit.edu> wrote in message
news:1150271909.3...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Lots of good advice here. Don't miss Gunner's post elsewhere on this
subject. Don't cheap out. I recently moved a new milling machine from the
driveway in from of the house to my shop out back. I rented a fork lift and
borrowed a pallet jack. Took about 3 hours to move 100 feet. Best money I
ever spent. Although everything was fine, I now wish I had rented a larger
pallet jack than the one I had. Much life essence lost worrying about the
marginal capability of the one I had. Not worth it. Much of the time was
spent checking the load, planning the route over the gravel drive, looking
for clearance problems as it passed through the shop.
Don't get behind the load going up hill - be up hill from it (use a winch).
RoyJ
> I've moved many machines onto (and off of) college and high school
> campuses and have found (with few exceptions) conditions to be poor.
> You'd think, with all the intellectual power available, someone would
> have the foresight to plan the facilities to accommodate the movement
> of large pieces of equipment. :(
On one campus I use, the machine shop and assembly areas have a
freight elevator that is guarded by a 34-1/2" Fire rated door followed
by a right angle turn into the 10' elevator with a 4' door. Or I can use
the regular elevator with a 4' door that is 5' deep. Or there is always
the folded staircases. A Bridgeport has to be hoisted down an access pit
on a crane. 4'x8' plywood needs to be handled one sheet at a time. 20'
pieces of angle iron are nearly impossible. ARGH!!!!!!!!
dave
> Hi,
>
> Still following leads for local lathes, but I'll find something
> shortly, and when I do, I'll need to move it.
> Whether 100 miles or halfa mile, I'll want to load it onto a truck,
> drive it, and lower it off. I'm looking mostly at lathes that seem to
> be in the neighborhood of a ton. One I'm looking at is 3 tons, if it
> doesn't climb too much in price.
hiring a *rollback* wrecker for this type move. rollback wreckers come
in ALL sizes, tiny to huge...might wanna give a few locals tow truck
companies a call, see how much $ they are. not to be insulting, but some
of the drivers aren't 'especially skilled' in what parts of the lathe
it's best to 'hook straps and chain binders to'...(some supervision from
you required)
alternately, there IS such a thing as a rental 'tiltbed trailer', some
of these are all aluminum, and have a winch at the front, and are big
enough to load/carry a car.
it's been MY experience (YMMV) that after a certain size, the bigger the
lathe IS, the cheaper it gets (I guess because nobody can figure out how
to move it, or lacks the right type three-phase power...)
good luck
toolie
Ecnerwal
> carried a 350lb bandsaw down a flat of steps, but that was as heavy as
> I've worked with. Pure muscle wont' handle this.
Riggers can be a _very_ worthwhile investment. They have brains and
tools and insurance to go along with muscle, and might not cost any more
than renting a truck. Should be easy to find some in Boston-area.
If that's not an option (check if your campus has some, they often do,
or they know who to call if they don't), my best results with DIY have
been to jack one end of the stripped (all parts removed that can be
removed, including headstock, tailstock and apron/carriage) lathe bed,
remove the legs on that end, slide the bed into the truck, and remove
the legs on the end remaining. Keeps the center of gravity low. Doing
that without proper equipment on a 3-ton lathe would not be something I
would attempt, but it works OK with an 800-lb one if you have 6 people
to help.
--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Ignoramus19197
>> I've never done anything like this. With brute force, 3 of us
>> carried a 350lb bandsaw down a flat of steps, but that was as heavy as
>> I've worked with. Pure muscle wont' handle this.
>
> Riggers can be a _very_ worthwhile investment. They have brains and
> tools and insurance to go along with muscle, and might not cost any more
> than renting a truck. Should be easy to find some in Boston-area.
I once bought a clausing 8530 mill, called some riggers, they quoted
prices around $1,400 for moving that mill to my home. I ended up doing
it myself. I am not questioning the need for riggers to move larger
items, but they were not particularly cheap when I called a few
places.
i
woodworker88
or someone else who has moved large machines or pieces of scientific
equipment. You may be limited by contract or union rules and may be
required to use the professional riggers who regularly work for the
university. If at all possible, have the machine loaded onto a large
pallet when you pick it up. This typically involves lifting the
machine with a hoist, crane, jack, or forklift and placing it on a
heavy duty pallet or skid. Then bolt and strap it down. this will
allow the machine to be loaded and unloaded easily. Also take into
account what kinds of movement will be needed inside the building?
Will it fit through doors? Can the forklift go inside the building?
When our shop moved our 3000 lb Excello milling machine, the facilities
guy took the crate as far as the ramp outside our shop, but it was up
to us to jack it up on floor jacks and slide it into the shop. Then we
had to jack under the side to remove the skid and roll it back into
place on pipes. Another consideration with a forklift is that although
they may be able to lift the machine, the operator may not feel
confortable driving up a ramp with a steep grade. Many machines,
particularly older ones, do not have the horsepower to pull that kind
of weight. You might need to use a large winch to either roll the
machine up the ramp or provide a backup to the forklift. Also back to
the truck, one problem with an enclosed truck like a uhaul is getting
the pallet near enough to the edge to lift with the forklift. You are
probably better renting a large flatbed trailer which the forklift can
approach from the side. This site, written by a member of RCM, shows
many of the caveats to worry about.
http://www.truetex.com/movebpt.htm
Although not a lathe, the weight is about the same.
Hope this info is useful,
Woodworker88
www.lahsrobotics.org
Mike Henry
"Ignoramus19197" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.19197.invalid> wrote in message
news:kRekg.21040$qA6....@fe33.usenetserver.com...
A local rigging company charged me $200 to pick up and deliver a Clausing
5914 lathe, including the forklift to off load the flat-bed trailer it was
transported with. That price was quoted with the understanding that the
delivery could be made when they had another load in the area and that I'd
be available to meet their schedule. These folks are around 20 miles away
from you, I think, should you need someone in the future (look up Diamond
Rigging).
Mike
Ignoramus19197
Thanks Mike. I may need them, potentially, to unload some 2000 lbs
lathes (loading in my pickup is no problem).
i