Why no one buys screw machines

[Ignoramus13481]

I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
are similar in every way to this listing:

https://www.machinetools.com/en/for-sale/382995-acme-gridley-rb-8-multiple-spindle-automatic-screw-machines

They and their parts are all scrap material despite being in good
condition.

I know that they are impossible to sell. What I do not understand is
why?

They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
etc.

And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?

[David Billington]

I bought a few bits a couple of years ago from a guy that ran a
succesful screw machine company in the UK but he had  sold the machines
to another company and retired. He said they contacted him shortly after
to come and help them set up the machines for a job which he did but
ultimately they were on their own after that. It seems he had worked
with them most of his life and knew them well but fewer and fewer people
are about who know how to use them so they had become largely useless
and went for scrap.

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus13481 wrote:

> I bought a few huge Acme Gridley RB-8 screw machines this week. They
> are similar in every way to this listing:

> They seem to be very useful and productive manufacturing machines
> for high volume production, making things like industrual fittings,
> etc.
>
> And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?

CNC lathes. CNC-savvy machinists know how to set these up, and they can
change over from one job to another in minutes if no tools need to be
changed, and in an hour if they do. The cam-type screw machines need very
tricky setup with a lot of trial and error until the parts come out within
tolerance.

The screw machines can generally beat even a very good CNC turning center
making just one part, day in and day out. The tool to tool time on a
screw machine can be less than a second. But, few people today know how to
set them up and maintain them.

Jon

[dpb]

On 01-Oct-17 1:46 PM, David Billington wrote:
...

> ... but fewer and fewer people

> are about who know how to use them so they had become largely useless
> and went for scrap.

But that wouldn't be so unless they weren't being used prior to losing
the knowledge base--there'd still be plenty of people who did know them
if they hadn't been unused for quite some time already.

I "know nuthink!" per Schultzie's line about commercial screw production
but one presumes more highly automated machines did replace them and
probably including at least some robotics but what, specifically?

Or, is it simply that there's no US production left; it's all in China
and the like...

--

[Ecnerwal]

In article <VZGdnQHq84L0qUzE...@giganews.com>,
Ignoramus13481 <ignoram...@NOSPAM.13481.invalid> wrote:

> https://www.machinetools.com/en/for-sale/382995-acme-gridley-rb-8-multiple-spi
> ndle-automatic-screw-machines

Well, it weighs more than 16 tons, which makes it a bit difficult for a
small shop to justify, and presumably makes the scrap value high enough
to make it expensive (counting scrap value and rigging, much less what
it wants for power, or a non-scrap price.)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

[Gunner Asch]

They are still very much in use across the US. However..that being
said..so much "mass production" has gone to other countries that much
of the use that Acmes and Davenports and Coromants etc etc are pretty
much locked into companies that cant change to the expensive CNCs
stuff like Star etc etc and have products that cant be done overseas.

Id be very interested in buying some coolant pumps if you are parting
out the machines. I take care of a double handful of Acmes and Im
running low on coolant pumps.. the gears tend to take a beating if
you have ignorant small villagers from South America running them..

As you may be aware...most Acmes etc etc are now used as "roughing" or
"first op" machines as they are wearing out and finding someone to
rebuild one is both impossible and expensive as fuck.

So they are set up to do the primary machining from bar stock, then
the roughed parts go to CNC lathes for machining to specs

They very much are still used to machine things that dont need tenths
tolerances. A perfect example would be..lug nuts. Washers, fittings
and so forth. Acmes can be found that will do up to 12" diameter
parts..though they have become rather rare as has the work for them.

One of my clients
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PdgsBZPt8m3tfmdH2

These are just a few of the 12 they run. The above three run 1/2 a
shift a day..and their output is completed (finished to tolerance) on
these, over the next 2 shifts.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EkjVFqg5mC2D1su82

Other companies...

http://www.m-reng.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Equipment-4.jpg

http://www.m-reng.com/

For those who may never have seen a "screw machine"

" Multi-Spindle Screw Machines
The multi-spindle screw machine is turning machine that allows
multiple tools to cut multiple pieces of material simultaneously. Like
a Gatling gun, the multiple spindles are carried in a precision
machined drum that typically rotates in a horizontal orientation. The
total number of operations needed to complete a part are divided among
the number of spindles, so that a part is completed with one full
rotation of the drum. However, because multiple parts are being
machined simultaneously, a part is completed each time the drum
indexes, making for a very efficient process. Usually configured in 4,
5, 6 or 8 spindle models, each spindle is attacked by a cross-slide
and end-slide tool effectively making each spindle a 2-axis lathe. "

There are about 4 types..but they typically are called either "Swiss
screw machines" or "Multi-spindle" screw machines.

Mechanical Swiss screw machines are typically used for high precision
small parts under 3/4", and include Tornos, Bechler, Star, Brown and
Sharpe etc

They nearly always machine (1) part at a time, with multiple tools in
operation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zymiEXw6jZU

They also come in CNC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU1-G7Eh1fk


Multi spindle machines are rather different.... They perform an
operation on each part as the part is spun around an axis. Hence you
may have 6 parts in the machine..each part is undergoing a single
machining operation, then its spun to the next tool ..then to the
next..and finally popped out of the machine into a collection area.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GFYjm5E4cA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOGdQgiBMS8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnCFDkxAVPE

They even come in CNC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2dd_G_vjGE



A rather good recruitment video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6Pka6jrwHY&t=9s

This may give you some idea of how they are laid out....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZls0HwsIzI



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Gunner Asch]

CNC screw machines (see the links in my previous post) have done a
fair amount of change over...but..suprisingly little. The machines
posted..many of them depended on a moving "program wheel"..IE a "cam"
to tell each tool what to do.....and each one was "programmed" by a
special milling machine....

This is a rack of cams
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f38/57649d1346070327-value-screw-machine-cams-iphone-334.jpg
https://cdn.globalauctionplatform.com/7e03f5f8-3eea-40e7-8cad-a667013d8047/d080f20c-09be-4f1d-dd2a-a443983acb5b/540x360.jpg
https://d2n4wb9orp1vta.cloudfront.net/resources/images/300/cdn/cms/PM0417_D_Champion.jpg

This is how they are setup in the machine

http://podmoremfg.com/images/capa_esco_cam.jpg



Some thoughts on the old cam machines...

http://todaysmachiningworld.com/magazine/future-of-cam-operated-screw-machines/

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 13:55:40 -0500, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
wrote:

Absolutely correct. Setting up a manual screw machine can take a
couple hours to a full shift. And then machine hundreds of thousands
of parts fairly quickly.

CNC takes much less time, but then makes those parts much slower...but
often with higher precision.

The old manual screw machines take up floor space. A lot of it with
their bar feeders which accept 12' bars. I have clients who have
machines dedicated to making a single part for a single customer who
only orders 1 or 2 times a year..but orders many thousands at each
order. So the machines sit for 6 months..then run 3 shifts a day for
a couple weeks, then sit for 6 months... all run by a single operator
who simply checks parts and makes sure the bar feeders are full...

Then they go back to sleep for 6 months....

[Ignoramus13481]

I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be made.

i

[Ignoramus13481]

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>And yet nobody buys them. WHat were they replaced with?
>
>
> They are still very much in use across the US. However..that being
> said..so much "mass production" has gone to other countries that much
> of the use that Acmes and Davenports and Coromants etc etc are pretty
> much locked into companies that cant change to the expensive CNCs
> stuff like Star etc etc and have products that cant be done overseas.
>
> Id be very interested in buying some coolant pumps if you are parting
> out the machines. I take care of a double handful of Acmes and Im
> running low on coolant pumps.. the gears tend to take a beating if
> you have ignorant small villagers from South America running them..

I will see what I can salvage...

> As you may be aware...most Acmes etc etc are now used as "roughing" or
> "first op" machines as they are wearing out and finding someone to
> rebuild one is both impossible and expensive as fuck.
>
> So they are set up to do the primary machining from bar stock, then
> the roughed parts go to CNC lathes for machining to specs
>
> They very much are still used to machine things that dont need tenths
> tolerances. A perfect example would be..lug nuts. Washers, fittings
> and so forth. Acmes can be found that will do up to 12" diameter
> parts..though they have become rather rare as has the work for them.

OK, good point about wearing out...

> One of my clients
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/PdgsBZPt8m3tfmdH2

Nice

[Ed Huntress]

Everyone else has covered this well, but you bring up something here
that's worth adding: Extended high-volume continuous production has
always been a rare exception in manufacturing. Back in the 1960s, and
even in the '50s, there were articles (and, I think books) on the
subject "the myth of mass production." Most production in the US and
elsewhere has been batch production, and the time and cost of
changeover has always been a big factor in production costs. Screw
machines are slow to change over and require some expertise; CNC
lathes are much faster. And they are much, much more versatile.

--
Ed Huntress

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0500, Ignoramus13481
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.13481.invalid> wrote:

There are. However...so many shops have gone out of business in the
past 10 yrs..that there are a lot of these machines in limbo...not
enough work to employ them all. Most of the low profit high volume
work has gone out of the US.

That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
be shipped to Texas.

President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
back home.

[Ignoramus13481]

On 2017-10-02, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:

Going to Texas is how stuff gets shipped to Mexico, through El Paso
and Laredo.

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 01 Oct 2017 22:40:23 -0500, Ignoramus13481

See if Mexicans will buy your machines. Ive sold a number of them to
mechadoras down south.

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus13481 wrote:


>
> I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be
> made.
>

"Back in the day", when there were carburetors, they had 100 special parts
on each one, needle valves, jets and the screws that held it all together,
that were made by the barrel on screw machines. Lots of other products has
screw machine-produced parts, too. All the threaded plumbing fittings were
made on screw machines. Well, a lot of that production has moved overseas,
some of those products are made differently (think fuel injection) and a lot
of these parts are molded or cast in some manner now. So, there is less
demand for this. Also, there are rotary transfer machines that are used
to make all sorts of reall high production parts. These can even beat a
screw machine for throughput.

For one thing, screw machines were at one time used to make -- SCREWS!
I suspect that it would be VERY rare to make screws that way, now. Mostly,
they'd be coined and have the threads rolled. Nowhere as precise, but
precise enough to hold some gadget together.


Jon

[Jon Elson]

Gunner Asch wrote:


>
> That may...may be changing around however. I saw 3 Acmes being sold
> the other day and loaded on trucks at a dealer in Whittier, going to
> be shipped to Texas.
>
> President Trump is talking many companies into bringing their work
> back home.

"Re-shoring" has been going on for about 10 years or so. As the Chinese,
Vietnamese and Indian economies continue to build up, the incredible
difference in labor cost gets smaller. And then, the cost and delay of
shipping and all the communication issues start to become a problem.
I'm pretty sure this trend will continue.

Jon

[Ed Huntress]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 10:33:29 -0500, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
wrote:

>Ignoramus13481 wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I thought that there is a lot of such high production parts needing to be
>> made.

I hope you don't mind if I pick some nits. d8-)

>>
>"Back in the day", when there were carburetors, they had 100 special parts
>on each one, needle valves, jets and the screws that held it all together,
>that were made by the barrel on screw machines.

Yeah, mostly little Swiss automatics, though, not the big ones. Lots
of fuel-system parts are still made on those machines (Citizen-Cimcom,
Tsugami, etc.) They're basically the same machines, only now they're
CNC instead of cam-controlled.

> Lots of other products has
>screw machine-produced parts, too. All the threaded plumbing fittings were
>made on screw machines.

Hmm...for the past 60 years or so, actually on dial-index transfer

machines.

> Well, a lot of that production has moved overseas,
>some of those products are made differently (think fuel injection) and a lot
>of these parts are molded or cast in some manner now. So, there is less
>demand for this. Also, there are rotary transfer machines that are used
>to make all sorts of reall high production parts. These can even beat a
>screw machine for throughput.
>
>For one thing, screw machines were at one time used to make -- SCREWS!
>I suspect that it would be VERY rare to make screws that way, now. Mostly,
>they'd be coined

...sort of. Cold-headed, actually.

> and have the threads rolled.

Yes.

> Nowhere as precise, but
>precise enough to hold some gadget together.
>
>
>Jon

Some specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
where they work in their bare feet.

When I was at Wasino, we turned the big-end con-rod bolts for Cosworth
racing engines on our precision CNC lathes, which would turn to +/- 50
microinches. I think they were $24/each, or possibly $24/pair, when we
were done. d8-)

Do you remember Dobbie Dave, who used to hang out here? I wrote an
article about him and his shop about 15 years ago. Most of his income
was (and maybe still is) from production on his four 1947 B&S,
leather-belt-driven screw machines (known commonly as "Brownies.")

He found himself a niche. He was a sole source, making parts for
lie-detector machines, and a couple of other little hinge pins and
such.

--
Ed Hunttress

[David Billington]

I caught up with an old boss of mine over the weekend and the company he
works for has a manufacturing branch in China which has it's issues but
is generally a benefit to the company. He mentioned that now there are
regular trains, very long ones, that run from China to Europe and they
get things shipped on those as they're far quicker than getting things
shipped by sea from China to Europe, the UK.

[MOP CAP]

I build model engines and repair old things and like to used NOS screws
and nuts. Last year at a local FM i bought a flat [soft drink or beer
case bottom] of small [6 to 2] screws from the late 40;s or 30's
for$10. They are so nice compared to the crap you get nowdays that are
formed , rolled cold headed.
I was lucky. You should see the sharp edges on phillister heads.
CP

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 10:33:29 -0500, Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com>
wrote:

Well stated. Bravo!

[Mike Spencer]

Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> writes:

> Everyone else has covered this well, but you bring up something here
> that's worth adding: Extended high-volume continuous production has
> always been a rare exception in manufacturing. Back in the 1960s, and
> even in the '50s, there were articles (and, I think books) on the
> subject "the myth of mass production." Most production in the US and
> elsewhere has been batch production, and the time and cost of
> changeover has always been a big factor in production costs. Screw
> machines are slow to change over and require some expertise; CNC
> lathes are much faster. And they are much, much more versatile.

My understanding is that the Thor Power Tool decision in 1979 [1]
screwed up (pun intended) the bolt and rivet industry much as it did
the publishing industry.

Company gets an order for, say, 100,000 3/16" x 1-1/8" button-head
soft iron black-finish rivets. So they tool up, make 500,000, deliver
the 100K order and stock the remainder. Same for maybe 2,000
varieties of rivets in dozens of styles, size and materials. After a
few years, they can deliver almost anything from stock. Similar for
bolts.

Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax liability. Then
they go to making just the order and the customer has to pick up the
set-up and material procurement costs rather than having the maker
spread them over several/many years.

Under that rubric, CNC may be a cheaper way to go than screw machines.


[1] http://www.sfwa.org/2005/01/how-thor-power-hammered-publishing/

I vaguely recall that there was an "Acme Bolt & Rivet" case as
well but I can't find a reference.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[Mike Spencer]

Jon Elson <el...@pico-systems.com> writes:

> For one thing, screw machines were at one time used to make -- SCREWS!
> I suspect that it would be VERY rare to make screws that way, now. Mostly,
> they'd be coined and have the threads rolled. Nowhere as precise, but
> precise enough to hold some gadget together.

I learned to distinguish between rolled and cut wood screws when I was
a kid. It's been decades since I saw a cut wood screw other than old
stock in my own dusty parts bins.

As an aside, 50 years ago I bought some 1/4" x #0 wood screws from a
hardware store going out of business after 3 generations. Just had my
second occasions to use some of them, to screw a carefully fitted
copper patch to my (tobacco) pipe to stop two cracks from joining and
wrecking the pipe. Second time I've done that and the other pipe is
still good after 20 years. But I do wonder just how 1/4" x 0 screws
were made.

[shitbag nash]

On 10/2/2017 11:52 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> [hogwash]

You buy blow-up dolls instead.

[Ignoramus21874]

I regularly sell to a fellow from Guatemala. I would hate to warehouse
screw machines though.

i

[Ignoramus21874]

On 2017-10-02, Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> Some specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
> are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
> where they work in their bare feet.

I know of two factories near me that employ large amount of cold
headers and thread rollers, making megatons of screws, and humming
along very nicely.

i

[Ed Huntress]

A you move up the scale in quality, you get into more US-made
fasteners. The bottom-end, high-volume commodity fasteners are almost
all made overseas.

--
Ed Huntress

[Ed Huntress]

On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer

Hmm. I never saw that reference to publishing before. It's
interesting.

I don't know how much the tax issue drove the big switch to minimal
inventories. Maybe it was a big issue, but the one that was touted
over and over, as US industry tried out just-in-time (JIT) inventory
control, was the shear interest and rental charges for maintaining
inventories. JIT looked like an answer, and it has been for many
industries.

But my sister-in-law, who was a buyer of castings and forgings for
Caterpillar, said they eventually renamed it "OSWO," for "Oh shit,
we're out."

d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

[Gunner Asch]

On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>

>Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax liability.

And thats exactly what happened. As you stated...it was very common
for shops to run a shitload of parts..ship what was ordered, then put
the balance in storage until the next order.

This is one of the reasons I have a shit ton of nuts, bolts and
fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made of. They
had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several times..and
yearly. And this couldnt be passed along to the customer

[Gunner Asch]

They do tend to take up space dont they? (Grin)

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 19:26:13 -0500, Ignoramus21874
<ignoram...@NOSPAM.21874.invalid> wrote:

Lots of them in So. Cal. Much fewer than years ago though.

http://www.ftc-usa.com/

http://www.aircraftbolts.com/

Some of these are suppliers..some are manufactures/suppliers like the
two above

http://www.fastenerindustry.com/Allsuppliersbystate/California.htm

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 20:39:26 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 19:26:13 -0500, Ignoramus21874
><ignoram...@NOSPAM.21874.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 2017-10-02, Ed Huntress <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes
>>> are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
>>> where they work in their bare feet.
>>
>>I know of two factories near me that employ large amount of cold
>>headers and thread rollers, making megatons of screws, and humming
>>along very nicely.
>>
>Lots of them in So. Cal. Much fewer than years ago though.
>
>http://www.ftc-usa.com/
>
>http://www.aircraftbolts.com/
>
>Some of these are suppliers..some are manufactures/suppliers like the
>two above
>
>http://www.fastenerindustry.com/Allsuppliersbystate/California.htm
>

I forgot the aerospace poprivit maker...Cherry

http://www.cherryaerospace.com/

[Larry Jaques]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 20:30:39 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>

They don't float around at 33k pounds apiece, either.

--
Stoop and you'll be stepped on;
stand tall and you'll be shot at.
-- Carlos A. Urbizo

[Phil Kangas]

"Gunner Asch" <
> wrote in message

> On 02 Oct 2017 17:11:52 -0300, Mike Spencer

> <> wrote:
>
>>
>>Until keeping that stock on the shelf becomes a tax
>>liability.
>
>
> And thats exactly what happened. As you stated...it was
> very common
> for shops to run a shitload of parts..ship what was
> ordered, then put
> the balance in storage until the next order.
>
> This is one of the reasons I have a shit ton of nuts,
> bolts and
> fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made
> of. They
> had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several
> times..and
> yearly. And this couldnt be passed along to the customer

That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
that pushed for that?

[Ed Huntress]

It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of shit.
Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
to a few states:

https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-state-tax-business-inventory/

Gunner's state of California is not among them.

He may be thinking about business ad valorem taxes, which are state or
local property taxes. They are not inventory taxes, and, again, they
are not federal taxes.

Dobe Dave used to bitch here about the business property taxes he paid
on his machine shop, in Texas.

--
Ed Huntress

[Five To One]

LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
inventory that other businesses couldn't afford to pay taxes on. Makes
perfect sense when you consider Wieber's imaginary accountant toiling
to find ways to avoid the imaginary tax. :)

In more interesting news, on the 26th over at alt.survival, Wieber
said that the Trump economy has enabled him to have "enough money in
my pocket to get Moby Dick (the E350van) smogged and tagged this week"
And he promises to post the registration! So that's coming
aaaaaaaaaany day now. Unless "this week" means never. :)

[Acme Screw Machine]

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 11:50:55 -0400, Ed Huntress
<hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:

>It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of shit.
>Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
>to a few states:
>
>https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-state-tax-business-inventory/
>
>Gunner's state of California is not among them.

Hello Mr. Huntress,

We can confirm Mr. Wieber's account to some degree. We had a lot of
junk that was costing us money to dispose of. Mr. Wieber took it off
our hands at no charge. Although we are a little disturbed that he is
sleeping in our parking lot and rummaging though our dumpster looking
for half eaten sandwiches. He will only be allowed to continue so long
as he agrees to begin abiding by the poop and scoop bylaws.

[jcarro...@gmail.com]

Several distinct issues are being conflated here, Ed.
I'm not surprised...

[Gunner Asch]

I tend to move them using dollys...TruBlueMachining has a 6000 lb
forklift....wont pick any of them up...

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 10:41:46 -0400, "Phil Kangas"
<pka...@upalphacomm.net> wrote:

>

Leftists of course.

[dca...@krl.org]

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 9:26:08 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:

>
> >
> >ime specialty screws and bolts are still turned, but the big volumes

> >> are made on ancient, beat-up headers and roll-threaders in countries
> >> where they work in their bare feet.
> >
>
>

> A you move up the scale in quality, you get into more US-made
> fasteners. The bottom-end, high-volume commodity fasteners are almost
> all made overseas.
>
> --
> Ed Huntress

Does anyone know of the requirement to put the bolt makers symbol on the head of the bolt?

Dan

[Ed Huntress]

Let us know if it shows up somewhere -- maybe it's on the Dark Web.

--
Ed Huntress

[Ed Huntress]

Right. Note that inventory taxes are mostly a red-state thing, and
kind of a throwback to days when state governments would jump through
hoops to hide taxes and to avoid taxes on individuals. Politics, ya'
know.

--
Ed Huntress

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
>>>unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
>>>that pushed for that?
>>
>>It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of shit.
>>Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
>>to a few states:
>>
>>https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-state-tax-business-inventory/
>>
>>Gunner's state of California is not among them.
>
>LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable

Cites? I dont manufacture anything, you gormless twit licker.

But you knew that. You are just a dick.
But we knew that.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:

>

>In more interesting news, on the 26th over at alt.survival, Wieber
>said that the Trump economy has enabled him to have "enough money in
>my pocket to get Moby Dick (the E350van) smogged and tagged this week"
>And he promises to post the registration! So that's coming
>aaaaaaaaaany day now. Unless "this week" means never. :)

(Grin)

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 10:02:11 -0700, Acme Screw Machine <A...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Path: not-for-mail
>From: Acme Screw Machine <A...@gmail.com>
>Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
>Subject: Re: Why no one buys screw machines
>Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2017 10:02:11 -0700
>Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
>Lines: 20
>Message-ID: <ejg7tcpt8rfp727k5...@4ax.com>
>References: <VZGdnQHq84L0qUzE...@giganews.com> <pa-dnUVb78yxp0zE...@giganews.com> <CfydnbYl5NNIDUzE...@giganews.com> <5i73tc532m5556lj7...@4ax.com> <87r2ul4...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> <ur06tcd502efripru...@4ax.com> <or07jc$2ih$1...@dont-email.me> <fsb7tctun9k1q94hm...@4ax.com>
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="d5b862ecd9849dcf33ab569e3137b5de";
> logging-data="10059"; mail-complaints-to="ab...@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/25UXwVkVwdwjcSbizLiVqCWvo8ucVfQc="
>X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 6.00/32.1186
>Cancel-Lock: sha1:6UlcRAIvXV0/kBbXxC0EhPJAoSs=
>X-Received-Bytes: 2008
>X-Received-Body-CRC: 2712458893
>X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 171003-2, 10/03/2017), Inbound message
>X-Antivirus-Status: Clean

Acme? You can do better than that..cant you?

[Acme Screw Machine]

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 15:36:31 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 10:02:11 -0700, Acme Screw Machine <A...@gmail.com>
>wrote:

>>Hello Mr. Huntress,
>>
>>We can confirm Mr. Wieber's account to some degree. We had a lot of
>>junk that was costing us money to dispose of. Mr. Wieber took it off
>>our hands at no charge. Although we are a little disturbed that he is
>>sleeping in our parking lot and rummaging though our dumpster looking
>>for half eaten sandwiches. He will only be allowed to continue so long
>>as he agrees to begin abiding by the poop and scoop bylaws.
>
>
>Acme? You can do better than that..cant you?

Oh, there you are! I wanted to tell you that since I don't like
pickles, I wrapped up the ones off my burger today and put the package
neatly in the corner of the dumpster. Bon appetit! Sorry about the
swarf, a couple of the pickles fell on the floor before I wrapped
them. I notice you've been putting bottles of what looks like lemonade
in our dumpster. Cut that out or we'll have to insist that you move
back to the Walmart parking lot.

[Five To One]

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 15:35:45 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>In more interesting news, on the 26th over at alt.survival, Wieber
>>said that the Trump economy has enabled him to have "enough money in
>>my pocket to get Moby Dick (the E350van) smogged and tagged this week"
>>And he promises to post the registration! So that's coming
>>aaaaaaaaaany day now. Unless "this week" means never. :)
>
>(Grin)

Translation: you lied when you said you had the money to register
Hotel Econoline. You'll have to keep sleeping in some other junker. Or
you could tow Hotel Econoline to whatever parking lot you use as a
campground.

[Five To One]

On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 15:35:11 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>>That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
>>>>unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
>>>>that pushed for that?
>>>
>>>It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of shit.
>>>Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
>>>to a few states:
>>>
>>>https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-state-tax-business-inventory/
>>>
>>>Gunner's state of California is not among them.
>>
>>LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
>
>Cites? I dont manufacture anything, you gormless twit licker.

From a few posts up the thread:

"I have a shit ton of nuts, bolts and
fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made of. They
had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several times"

So now it's in YOUR inventory. Your, as in, a fool pretending he has a
business even though everyone knows he's a scrounger in minivan.

Now, show us the relevant tax code that the dumpster owner was
complying with, and that you ignore. LOL

And yeah, everybody already knows you don't manufacture anything. Even
if you could learn some manufacturing skills, you're too busy writing
stupid shit that you can't remember five minutes later.

[Leroy Proud-Eagle Garcia]

On 10/4/2017 8:02 AM, Five To One wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 15:35:11 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
>>>>> unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
>>>>> that pushed for that?
>>>>
>>>> It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of shit.
>>>> Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
>>>> to a few states:
>>>>
>>>> https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-state-tax-business-inventory/
>>>>
>>>> Gunner's state of California is not among them.
>>>
>>> LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
>>
>> Cites? I dont manufacture anything, you gormless twit licker.
>
> From a few posts up the thread:
>
> "I have a shit ton of nuts, bolts and
> fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made of. They
> had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several times"

What is Business Personal Property?

In general, Business Personal Property is all property owned or
leased by a business *except* Real Property and *Inventory* items.
[emphasis added]

Business Personal Property includes, but is not limited to:

Machinery
Computers
Equipment (e.g. FAX machines, photocopiers)
Telephones
Furniture (e.g. desks, chairs, bookcases)
Supplies

Tangible property owned, claimed, possessed or controlled in the
conduct of a profession, trade or business may be subject to
property taxes.

Business Personal Property is valued annually as of January 1.

https://assessor.lacounty.gov/personal-property-assessments-2/

So, Wieber lied again, surprising absolutely no one.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 07:52:39 -0700, Acme Screw Machine <A...@gmail.com>

ROLFMAO!!!

Thats better. Still typical of your lies and buffoonery..but better
story telling.

[Gunner Asch]

(Grin)

Ive already put 40 miles on her.

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 08:02:32 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:

>>>
>>>LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
>>
>>Cites? I dont manufacture anything, you gormless twit licker.
>
>From a few posts up the thread:
>
>"I have a shit ton of nuts, bolts and
>fasteners of all sorts..plus material that they were made of. They
>had to get rid of the inventory else it was taxed several times"
>
>So now it's in YOUR inventory. Your, as in, a fool pretending he has a
>business even though everyone knows he's a scrounger in minivan.

Of course its now in my inventory. However..Im not a manufacturer.

You really are quite the buffoon...laugh
laughlaughlaughlaughlaughlaugh!!!

[Gunner Asch]

(Grin)..its not in my business inventory. Its in my personal
inventory.

is that the very best you can do????

Btw..I dont live in LA county.

(VBG)

>
>
>> So now it's in YOUR inventory. Your, as in, a fool pretending he has a
>> business even though everyone knows he's a scrounger in minivan.
>>
>> Now, show us the relevant tax code that the dumpster owner was
>> complying with, and that you ignore. LOL
>>
>> And yeah, everybody already knows you don't manufacture anything. Even
>> if you could learn some manufacturing skills, you're too busy writing
>> stupid shit that you can't remember five minutes later.
>>

ROFLMAO!!!

[Leroy Proud-Eagle Garcia]

It wasn't taxed when it was in the business's inventory, either.

> Btw..I dont live in LA county.

The business from which you scavenged/stole the stuff is. There is no
inventory tax in Kern County, either, nor in any other county from which
you might have scavenged/stole the material.

[Gunner Asch]

So you are calling me a thief now?

You do know that just caused you to need your hiding who you are,
right? Tsk tsk tsk...before that comment..you were simply a
buffoon....

Now..you have become a hobby that will result in a most interesting
project.

"After hearing you talk, I now know that the dead do contact us."

[Leroy Proud-Eagle Garcia]

On 10/4/2017 3:36 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:26:24 -0700, Leroy Proud-Eagle Garcia
> <lp...@naacpmaldefsioux.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Btw..I dont live in LA county.
>>
>> The business from which you scavenged/stole the stuff is.
>
> So you are calling me a thief now?
>
> You do know that just caused you to need your hiding who you are,
> right? Tsk tsk tsk...before that comment..you were simply a
> buffoon....
>
> Now..you have become a hobby that will result in a most interesting
> project.
>
> "After hearing you talk, I now know that the dead do contact us."

<yawn> More empty Wieber woofing...

[Five To One]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 19:41:56 -0700, Leroy Proud-Eagle Garcia

<lp...@naacpmaldefsioux.com> wrote:

>On 10/4/2017 3:36 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:26:24 -0700, Leroy Proud-Eagle Garcia
>> <lp...@naacpmaldefsioux.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Btw..I dont live in LA county.
>>>
>>> The business from which you scavenged/stole the stuff is.
>>
>> So you are calling me a thief now?
>>
>> You do know that just caused you to need your hiding who you are,
>> right? Tsk tsk tsk...before that comment..you were simply a
>> buffoon....
>>
>> Now..you have become a hobby that will result in a most interesting
>> project.
>>
>> "After hearing you talk, I now know that the dead do contact us."
>
><yawn> More empty Wieber woofing...

... and zero defense of his tax BS, which is a tacit admission that it
was another story he pulled out of his ass, to be gobbled up by other
morons who like getting their tax anecdotes from a guy who's so broke
he can get away with refusing to pay taxes, and who probably doesn't
even file a return.

[Five To One]

On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:46:05 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 08:00:13 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 15:35:45 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>In more interesting news, on the 26th over at alt.survival, Wieber
>>>>said that the Trump economy has enabled him to have "enough money in
>>>>my pocket to get Moby Dick (the E350van) smogged and tagged this week"
>>>>And he promises to post the registration! So that's coming
>>>>aaaaaaaaaany day now. Unless "this week" means never. :)
>>>
>>>(Grin)
>>
>>Translation: you lied when you said you had the money to register
>>Hotel Econoline. You'll have to keep sleeping in some other junker. Or
>>you could tow Hotel Econoline to whatever parking lot you use as a
>>campground.
>
>(Grin)
>
>Ive already put 40 miles on her.

No. You said you'd happily post a photo of the registration. No photo,
no credibility, no registration.

[Gunner Asch]

(VBG)

[kick ray-ray]

<VBG> Cites? indeed $75/hr fascinating "I've not" buffoon "hold that
thought" backhoe "the list" cull 264mph "3/5/8 years street cop"
swingers "Libs" leftists

[Land Ho]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 08:44:01 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 07:56:29 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 12:46:05 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 04 Oct 2017 08:00:13 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 15:35:45 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In more interesting news, on the 26th over at alt.survival, Wieber
>>>>>>said that the Trump economy has enabled him to have "enough money in
>>>>>>my pocket to get Moby Dick (the E350van) smogged and tagged this week"
>>>>>>And he promises to post the registration! So that's coming
>>>>>>aaaaaaaaaany day now. Unless "this week" means never. :)
>>>>>
>>>>>(Grin)
>>>>
>>>>Translation: you lied when you said you had the money to register
>>>>Hotel Econoline. You'll have to keep sleeping in some other junker. Or
>>>>you could tow Hotel Econoline to whatever parking lot you use as a
>>>>campground.
>>>
>>>(Grin)
>>>
>>>Ive already put 40 miles on her.
>>
>>No. You said you'd happily post a photo of the registration. No photo,
>>no credibility, no registration.
>
>(VBG)

Yes, Wieber, everyone knows that the phony VBG is what you do whenever
you've boxed yourself into a corner. The irony here is that you got
caught lying about tagging a vehicle. Making it obvious that a routine
thing for normal people is only a dream on Planet Wieber. Doubly
feeble, you blurted out your plan to defraud an insurance company.
Should you someday manage to follow through on that plan and get
caught, you've already trashed any hope of claiming an innocent
mistake. What a dumbass!

[Gunner Asch]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 09:41:10 -0700, Land Ho <L...@td.net> wrote:

>>>>
>>>>Ive already put 40 miles on her.
>>>
>>>No. You said you'd happily post a photo of the registration. No photo,
>>>no credibility, no registration.
>>
>>(VBG)
>
>Yes, Wieber, everyone knows that the phony VBG is what you do whenever
>you've boxed yourself into a corner. The irony here is that you got
>caught lying about tagging a vehicle. Making it obvious that a routine
>thing for normal people is only a dream on Planet Wieber. Doubly
>feeble, you blurted out your plan to defraud an insurance company.
>Should you someday manage to follow through on that plan and get
>caught, you've already trashed any hope of claiming an innocent
>mistake. What a dumbass!

[goodsoldi...@google.com]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 13:08:14 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 09:41:10 -0700, Land Ho <L...@td.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>>>Ive already put 40 miles on her.
>>>>
>>>>No. You said you'd happily post a photo of the registration. No photo,
>>>>no credibility, no registration.
>>>
>>>(VBG)
>>
>>Yes, Wieber, everyone knows that the phony VBG is what you do whenever
>>you've boxed yourself into a corner. The irony here is that you got
>>caught lying about tagging a vehicle. Making it obvious that a routine
>>thing for normal people is only a dream on Planet Wieber. Doubly
>>feeble, you blurted out your plan to defraud an insurance company.
>>Should you someday manage to follow through on that plan and get
>>caught, you've already trashed any hope of claiming an innocent
>>mistake. What a dumbass!
>
>(VBG)
>

That is one of those "shit eating grins" that I hear people talk
about, isn't it? The kind you do when you get caught with your hand in
someone else's pocket.

The next step, of course is to crouch down and sneak away like it
wasn't you that did it.

But unfortunately the reality is that you are a sad, old, failure, and
everyone knows it so no need to give the shit eating grin as everyone
knows you.

--
Cheers,

Schweik

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 06 Oct 2017 09:40:31 +0700, goodsoldi...@google.com

"You're like a showbag; full of shit."

[goodsoldi...@google.com]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017 20:59:24 -0700, Gunner Asch <gunne...@gmail.com>

But you are the guy with the grin.

See, I don't need to as I can pay my taxes.
--
Cheers,

Schweik

[Gunner Asch]

On 10/3/2017 3:35 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
>>>> unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
>>>> that pushed for that?
>>>
>>> It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of shit.
>>> Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
>>> to a few states:
>>>
>>> https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-state-tax-business-inventory/
>>>
>>> Gunner's state of California is not among them.
>>
>> LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
>
> Cites? I dont manufacture anything,

No one said you did, Wieber. However, *you* claimed there was an
inventory tax paid by your "clients" that motivated them to allow you to
boost - steal - a "shit ton of of nuts, bolts and fasteners of all
sorts". That's a lie, of course - no inventory tax.

[Bud Dickman]

On 10/3/2017 3:35 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Oct 2017 09:59:18 -0700, Five To One <F...@td.com> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> That inventory tax has to be the most stupid and
>>>> unfair tax on the IRS books! Who is the jackass
>>>> that pushed for that?
>>>
>>> It should not surprise you to learn that Gunner is full of shit.
>>> Inventory tax is a state tax, not a federal tax, and it only applies
>>> to a few states:
>>>
>>> https://taxfoundation.org/does-your-state-tax-business-inventory/
>>>
>>> Gunner's state of California is not among them.
>>
>> LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
>
> Cites? I dont manufacture anything,

You wouldn't have to manufacture anything, you stupid lying
dole-scrounging dumpster-diving *thieving* jackball, in order to be
subject to an inventory tax...if there were one. If you were a
distributor, and if there were an inventory tax - which there isn't, of
course - then you'd be subject to it.

Of course, "if you were a distributor" assumes that the likes of *you*
might actually be able to own and operate a business, and we all know
that's a joke.

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:36 -0800, Gunner Asch
<gunner_asrschloch@cocksuckers_in_taft.cunts> wrote:

>>>> Gunner's state of California is not among them.
>>>
>>> LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
>>
>> Cites? I dont manufacture anything,
>
>No one said you did, Wieber. However, *you* claimed there was an
>inventory tax paid by your "clients" that motivated them to allow you to
>boost - steal - a "shit ton of of nuts, bolts and fasteners of all
>sorts". That's a lie, of course - no inventory tax.

Steal is the same thing as "We are giving this to you"?

https://www1.avalara.com/us/en/learn/whitepapers/sales-use-tax-challenges-facing-manufacturers-distributors.html

Parts are made and not delivered yet. Client changes product line,
hence..doesnt need the parts currently held for them. Parts are not
paid for until delivery. Parts are part of manufactures inventory.
Parts are taxed because they are sitting on the shelves collecting
dust as they are assets.

Hence we have oodles of "salvage yards" to purchase finished parts for
pennies on the dollar, to remove them from being part of the
owners/manufacturers Assets. Some "salvage yards" charge you to
remove those items, creating costs rather than savings.

When I get asked to load up my trailer with screws, nuts and bolts
made by my client and sitting in dusty shelving for years..years they
paid taxes on them...its "theft" when I agree and bring them home??

This by the way..is the reason Just In Time manufacturing was
developed. Not because the client couldnt find a place to put
inventory needed in advance of use..but because its taxed.

Please provide some cites to how being given these items by the
company owner is "theft".

Ill be waiting for your response with bated breath.

[Gunner Asch]

On 2/4/2018 4:49 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:36 -0800, Gunner Asch
> <gunner_asrschloch@cocksuckers_in_taft.cunts> wrote:
>
>>>>> Gunner's state of California is not among them.
>>>>
>>>> LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
>>>
>>> Cites? I dont manufacture anything,
>>
>> No one said you did, Wieber. However, *you* claimed there was an
>> inventory tax paid by your "clients" that motivated them to allow you to
>> boost - steal - a "shit ton of of nuts, bolts and fasteners of all
>> sorts". That's a lie, of course - no inventory tax.
>
> Steal is the same thing as "We are giving this to you"?

It wasn't given to you, Wieber. You *stole* it. The client doesn't
face an inventory tax.

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 07:41:06 -0800, Gunner Asch

It wasnt given to me? Cites?

Please provide your evidence.

[Gunner Asch]

On 2/5/2018 10:52 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 07:41:06 -0800, Gunner Asch
> <gunner_asrschloch@cocksuckers_in_taft.cunts> wrote:
>
>> On 2/4/2018 4:49 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
>>> On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:36 -0800, Gunner Asch
>>> <gunner_asrschloch@cocksuckers_in_taft.cunts> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Gunner's state of California is not among them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL Wieber said that his business accumulates tons of taxable
>>>>>
>>>>> Cites? I dont manufacture anything,
>>>>
>>>> No one said you did, Wieber. However, *you* claimed there was an
>>>> inventory tax paid by your "clients" that motivated them to allow you to
>>>> boost - steal - a "shit ton of of nuts, bolts and fasteners of all
>>>> sorts". That's a lie, of course - no inventory tax.
>>>
>>> Steal is the same thing as "We are giving this to you"?
>>
>> It wasn't given to you, Wieber. You *stole* it. The client doesn't
>> face an inventory tax.
>
> It wasnt given to me? Cites?

LOL! "Cites" that it was, *thief*.