PCGS and Their "Questionable Color" Ripoff
Reality
When I submit a coin to PCGS, I want to know if it is genuine, the
grade, and if it is original.
IMO if you are paying the supposed leading expert graders in the
industry a $30 grading fee plus shipping both ways, then their
"Genuine - Questionable Color" B.S is not an option. I'm paying them
to tell me one way or the other.
The color/toning is either ORIGINAL or NOT.
If they can't tell the difference, then what is their opinion worth?
IMO the grading fee should be refunded if their "experts" can't
discern the difference. It's a total ripoff otherwise.
Bruce Remick
"Reality" <realit...@ausi.com> wrote in message
news:57df00ab-0d50-4e9a...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Tell 'em we said to give you your money back. It's much less stressful to
buy coins already graded by PCGS (and paid for by someone else) than to send
them your own coins and hold your breath waiting.
Reality
> "Reality" <realitych...@ausi.com> wrote in message
The point is, why should *anyone* get ripped off in that manner?
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
If you play cards for half-an-hour and can't figure out who the patsy
is, you're the patsy.
oly
Bruce Remick
===========
If you do some homework first, you're less likely to get "ripped off".
Sending a coin to a TPG like PCGS can be a crapshoot unless you're someone
who's experienced with that sort of thing. Before spending that money maybe
it would have saved any disappointment if you'd showed the coin first to a
couple reputable dealers who might have cautioned you about your coin's
questionable color and how PCGS might respond to it. You didn't say if you
did submit the coin through a dealer or if you're a "member". If it was
through a dealer, maybe you've got a gripe with that dealer for not advising
you as to what PCGS might conclude.
No one should get ripped off in that manner, and there are many ways to
minimize the chance.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bruce, your first advice was very adequate (i.e., buy a decent piece,
sightseen, already slabbed); that's not the game the OP wants to play.
oly
Reality
I sent it in through a very experienced dealer. The coin was an 1882-
CC PL Morgan Dollar with rainbow toning. I bought the coin from
another reputable dealer over 20 years ago and it has been in my safe
deposit box since. No one at the shop had any problems with it and
neither did I.
My question is why didn't PCGS just say that their opinion was that
the coin was recolored? (They would be wrong BTW.)
Reality
I was going to put the coin in an auction raw, and the advice given to
me was to have it slobbed because that's how most people want to buy
them these days. I'm not playing any games, and I don't appreciate
your silly insinuations.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Of course you're playing a game. And you're not an insider, which is
why you can't win.
And to boot, you'll have to misrepresent the coin for the rest of the
sales process. Which, obviously you are more than willing to do.
oly
Michael Benveniste
<realit...@ausi.com> wrote:
>My question is why didn't PCGS just say that their opinion was that
>the coin was recolored? (They would be wrong BTW.)
The term "Questionable Color" covers a lot of ground, from chemical
dips through baking.
The problem that PCGS faces is that unlike other "no grade" codes,
it's difficult to prove conclusively that a coin has been recolored,
or recently dipped, or otherwise artificially toned.
Experts can and do disagree on individual items. More than once, I've
seen coins rejected as artificially colored end up in pristine slabs.
In fact, I own one. It's a 1904 Cent that's sleeping peacefully in an
MS-64 Red holder after a sojourn in a body bag. It's been 9 years
since it was slabbed, and so far the coin hasn't developed the
orange-pink color that I'd expect from dipped copper. But there are
also some black spots on the reverse which make me think otherwise.
So think of PCGS's "Questionable Color" no-grade code as saying, "we
won't stick a grade on this coin because we don't want to guarantee
it."
--
Mike Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
Cogito eggo sum -- I'm thinking toaster waffles for breakfast.
Reality
"Insider". What a dumbass. lol
I sent it in through a dealer who is presumably an "insider".
>
> And to boot, you'll have to misrepresent the coin for the rest of the
> sales process. Which, obviously you are more than willing to do.
>
> oly
KOoK!
Bruce Remick
------------
Unless you owned the coin since 1882, how do you know how or when it
acquired its toning? PCGS apparently cited "questionable coloring", and I
would probably be as pissed as you were to have spent all that dough
expecting it to be slabbed. I doubt they felt it was "recolored" since that
would imply it once had coloring which was removed and reapplied
artificially later. But then who knows?
There have been many interesting discussions here about artificial toning--
especially the definition and the difference from "natural toning". But it
all comes down to what the professional graders think with a particular coin
in hand, since they're the ones who decide whether the coin rates a slab or
not. Maybe the best advice would be to stay away from excessively toned
coins, unless you like them raw or they're already slabbed.
Reality
I would say people have been doctoring coins for as long as there has
been a demand for the specific type of effect being created.
When I bought this particular coin in the mid 80s, there were more raw
than slabbed coins being offered at every shop and show that I
attended. I have seen hundreds of toned coins, and never had any
doubts about this one being original, as most artificially toned coins
that I saw during the 80s were either "baked potatoes" or had been
exposed to some type of sulfer source. BTW, this one hasn't changed
as far as I can tell over the time I've owned it, unlike what most
doctored coins tend to do.
>
> There have been many interesting discussions here about artificial toning--
> especially the definition and the difference from "natural toning". But it
> all comes down to what the professional graders think with a particular coin
> in hand, since they're the ones who decide whether the coin rates a slab or
> not. Maybe the best advice would be to stay away from excessively toned
> coins, unless you like them raw or they're already slabbed.
I agree with you, but I guess I'm just commenting on a frustrating
attempt to slab a coin I know well (in this case, merely to put in an
auction). Sadly though, my $30+ netted nothing more than a generic
"questionable" assessment rather than a specific decision.
I mean, isn't that why we submit coins? So that the so-called experts
can come down on one side of an issue or the other with a given coin?
Bruce Remick
----------------------
All of those radically-toned silver coins in the full page Coin World ads
had to have ended up that way un-naturally. Exposed to some outside source
that reacted with the coin to cause the wild colors. If PCGS was suspicious
about the history of your coin, maybe other potential bidders would be, too.
I'd give it a try. Or submit it to ANACS first to at least get it in a
slab.
>
> There have been many interesting discussions here about artificial
> toning--
> especially the definition and the difference from "natural toning". But it
> all comes down to what the professional graders think with a particular
> coin
> in hand, since they're the ones who decide whether the coin rates a slab
> or
> not. Maybe the best advice would be to stay away from excessively toned
> coins, unless you like them raw or they're already slabbed.
I agree with you, but I guess I'm just commenting on a frustrating
attempt to slab a coin I know well (in this case, merely to put in an
auction). Sadly though, my $30+ netted nothing more than a generic
"questionable" assessment rather than a specific decision.
I mean, isn't that why we submit coins? So that the so-called experts
can come down on one side of an issue or the other with a given coin?
------------------------
That's always been on the want list of many submitters. For the $30 fee,
they would at least like their coin to be slabbed, regardless of whether
it's noted as damaged, cleaned, artificially colored (isn't all coloring
un-natural in theory?), etc. I'm surprised you didn't get your dollar back
in a slab marked "Genuine". I thought that was PCGS's latest policy.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Aw, so we are crying over $30. Boo-hoo. One automatically loses $30
(usually more) anytime they take the day off and go to a coin show.
That's simply the cost of getting one's jollies.
The dealer likely knew that the coin was very very questionable. Up
close and personal, the dealer also knows that you are an insane
greedy so-and-so. So he just decided to let PCGS give you the bad
news.
And now you will still sell it, for what the market will bear. And
you will explain your screw-job away by saying (to yourself) that you
know so much more than the TPGs. This "screw your buddy" mentality is
why the U.S. numismatic "industry" is on the ropes - only extreme
grayhairs, the unemployable, dopes and morons still going through the
motions...
oly
Reality
LOL. You make $30 a day. Congrats.
>
> The dealer likely knew that the coin was very very questionable. Up
> close and personal, the dealer also knows that you are an insane
> greedy so-and-so. So he just decided to let PCGS give you the bad
> news.
He's the one who recommended sending it in to put in the auction. You
should really work on your reading comprehension.
>
> And now you will still sell it, for what the market will bear. And
> you will explain your screw-job away by saying (to yourself) that you
> know so much more than the TPGs. This "screw your buddy" mentality is
I really don't care if the coin sells or not. I just wanted to
convert a few of my duplicates into another coin I would rather own.
You're really quite stupid, aren't you?
> why the U.S. numismatic "industry" is on the ropes - only extreme
> grayhairs, the unemployable, dopes and morons still going through the
> motions...
>
> oly
Then why are you here?
Reality
--------
>
> That's always been on the want list of many submitters. For the $30 fee,
> they would at least like their coin to be slabbed, regardless of whether
> it's noted as damaged, cleaned, artificially colored (isn't all coloring
> un-natural in theory?), etc. I'm surprised you didn't get your dollar back
> in a slab marked "Genuine". I thought that was PCGS's latest policy.
It was slabbed Genuine with the questionable disclaimer. Which IMO is
just a bodybag made of hard plastic.
Nick Knight
01/17/2010
>You're really quite stupid, aren't you?
Well, I can't really comment on this, specifically. But I do know he's rude
and crude enough, while offering little-to-no coin-specific value to any
discussion, to warrant a permanent place in my killfile. But I'm now
seeing too much of him.
I'll kill this thread, although it WAS mildly interesting to me. I thought
I'd offer my own view of his debating "style" hoping to end what otherwise
will be an endless iteration. Some people are always right in their own
minds and will always be stuck on this.
I love the killfile feature. I recently added 2 of the most verbose local
posters to it, and short of this thread now, things seem to be valuable and
of mostly-coin content. I've found that adding to it aggressively really
works.
Nick
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, my excuse for being here would be that it's quite possible to
enjoy coins (even U.S. coins) without wanting to make a ton of $$$ on
the same. A few people still revel in the ownership of coins as
historical objects, not as rip-off devices. Nor does one especially
have to mess with the declining U.S. numismatic "industry" - there are
always (actually, there are foremost) world coins and ancient coins.
One can go through numismatic life without ever giving PCGS a second
thought.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
PCGS assesses coins in terms of how they think the market will view them.
If they feel the market will be accepting, they will grade the coin. If
they feel the market will be hesitant or unaccepting, they will slab the
coin as genuine and then tell you why they made the judgment call (IMHO a
much more humane and instructive policy than their previous bodybag event).
In all cases they prejudge the anticipated reaction to your coin of a market
that is partially known and partially unknown, based upon their past
experience, which is definitely broader than mine and, I would guess,
broader than yours. It is scientific only to a point, then the real
emotions, fears, and fickle, undefinable "feelings" that lurk in the market
take over, whence the "questionable" designator. My conclusion and advice,
after sending several coins to PCGS and seeing countless others in bodybags,
graded slabs, and "genuine" slabs: "It's a crapshoot. Don't gamble any
more money than you can afford to lose." From what I have seen, PCGS
arrives at that conclusion and follows that advice to the letter.
PCGS had a display at their table at CICF 2009 which featured two cases full
of coins they had to buy back for one reason or another after they had put
them in graded slabs. I am certain that some of those buybacks cost them a
bundle. Perhaps not a significant fraction of their bottom line,
nevertheless they represented a lesson in caution in putting their trademark
on their product.
Your screen name is Reality, and that's the reality, Reality. 8>)
James the Ombudsman
Mr. Jaggers
Excellent observation, one that I have taken to my cynical, collecting
heart.
James the Secondary Slabber
Mr. Jaggers
Aw, come on, Nick, I'm not verbose, I'm just pleasingly plump.
James the Circumferentially Gifted
Mr. Jaggers
Maybe when we boil numismatics down to its component salts, one of them is
indeed a game. And, like all games, it will be taken more or less
seriously, according to the temperament of the player. I'd say that
numismatics has room for the entire spectrum of gamers.
> And to boot, you'll have to misrepresent the coin for the rest of the
> sales process. Which, obviously you are more than willing to do.
The most common misrepresentation I have seen is trying to get XF money for
a VF coin that somehow got into an XF slab.
James the Overachiever
oly
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe that it has previously been observed that slabbed coins
follow a form of "Gresham's Law" (Bad Money drives out Good).
Been on sabbatical, mon prof?
oly
Mr. Jaggers
No, not really. Starting the last week of 2009 I kept getting error
messages that read "connection limit reached" with some outfit in Florida
whenever I tried to log on to Usenet. Since the year turned I no longer get
that message but have still been mostly unable to log on. The situation
seems to be getting better, though, because obviously, I'm here now. Thanks
for asking.
James the Intermittent
Reality
> Realitywrote:
>
> James the Ombudsman
Ya, well the "reality" is that I did't get to give them the history of
the coin which would totally disprove their incompetence in this
particular case. So I got screwed by some clueless so-called "grader"
this time around (which will probably be my last with those nitwits
unless the dealer pays for it).
