Testing home made slings
Matt Rogers
and test it for strength? I would like to use home made aiders and other
non-fall holding pieces of gear, however, if the slings can be made full
strength then I can tell if it is safe to use the other gear knowing that it
will not fail. For regular sings and other critical pieces of gear I am
still going to use name brand material. Please reply to both my e-mail and
newsgroup in case I miss one or the other. M Rogers
Jason Huckaby
It's probably just me, but I much prefer to break down, pay the
2.50, and buy a professionally sewn sling. Professionally sewn
slings use specialized, counted, stitches and the manufacturers have
years of experience.
Making a sling with mom's singer 'ant the same.
But if you did test 'em?
I'd break about a hundred, to see what kind of failure rate I had. To
see if my stitches held.. every time.
I'd have a calibrated machine, that would readout what strength they
broke at.
I'd make damn sure that I never deviated from any manufacturing
procedure that was used to make the first 100 I tested.
Lastly, I'd test each new one, to a percentage of the breaking strength
on the calibrated machine mentioned above.
Then, I'd go buy a professionally made sling. Cause I still would not
trust 'em
:)
JH
Matt Rogers
pieces while leading or for anchors or any other piece that would need to
hold a fall. I am merely creating things such as aiders, daisy chains with
the sling ends tied so I would not need to trust the stiching, or other
non-critical pieces of gear. I am not stupid and would not want to trust my
home made slings every time I climbed, but if I can make a pair of aiders
from $5.00 worth of webbing and not pay $25-30, then I'll go for the home
made stuff. M Rogers
"Jason Huckaby" <ja...@nerock.com> wrote in message
news:3AB55482...@nerock.com...
Michael A. Riches
dmro...@fast.net wrote on 3/18/01 6:04 PM:
> I am not stupid and would not want to trust my
> home made slings every time I climbed, but if I can make a pair of aiders
> from $5.00 worth of webbing and not pay $25-30, then I'll go for the home
> made stuff. M Rogers
> "Jason Huckaby" <ja...@nerock.com
You can make a set of aiders out of webbing "without" sewing....so why would
you want to waste all of that energy creating something that could possibly
fail under a situation like a blown piece??? I'd buy, and save in the long
run...guaranteed, the expertise manufactured in a set of store bought aiders
will make your life a tad bit easier, 'specially if you really intend on
using them...
The Rockrat...
Matt Rogers
the knots twist the steps so they are not straight, they are bulky and take
up more weight and space. I recently tested just one bartack on a piece of
1" webbing and it held two people bouncing on it. That is the extent that I
can test them to, but two people bouncing on one bartack is enought for me
to trust them to just standing in them. If a piece blows, how would the
force be transfered to the aider? The force would go through the rope to
your harness. You would not end up standing in your aiders on the previous
piece after a fall.
"Michael A. Riches" <rock...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B6DAB20E.1B5F7%rock...@earthlink.net...
> in article tbamo5q...@corp.supernews.com, > > "Jason Huckaby"
Tomato411
cotton clothesline. My neuro doc says that i'll be well one of these days .
. .
tom
Michael A. Riches
dmro...@fast.net wrote on 3/18/01 7:50 PM:
> If a piece blows, how would the
> force be transfered to the aider? The force would go through the rope to
> your harness. You would not end up standing in your aiders on the previous
> piece after a fall.
You're right...even with two sets of aiders, while transferring to the upper
set, if that piece blows the force would still be transferred to your
harness and not the lower set...
I doubt that there are two many people here that would recommend sewing your
own gear, unless you really knew what you were doing and had the proper
equipment to do it with...but it seems you are comfortable with your
results, so you are the one that has to live with the results...
To find somebody that will test your work, I'd talk to any of the climbing
shops that manufacture or test gear, or maybe somebody like Tom Moyer that
does this for his SAR team...
The Rockrat...
Rex Pieper
>> If a piece blows, how would the
>> force be transfered to the aider? The force would go through the rope to
>> your harness. You would not end up standing in your aiders on the previous
>> piece after a fall.
>You're right...even with two sets of aiders, while transferring to the upper
>set, if that piece blows the force would still be transferred to your
>harness and not the lower set...
I'd be more worried about the freak failure of the homesewn aider shock loading
the dicey piece of shit aid placement causing it to fail too. In no way do I
want
any type of shifting on tricky aid...even one bartack is one too much!
-Rex "pop....POP!" Pieper
remove ".XSPAM" from signature to reply
DJV_In_Aus
EVERYTHING?
OH to belong to a mega consumer society. :)
Maybe its because we here are less litigous, but most of my slings and draws
are home made. Tied, not sewn (as if I would trust my sewing). I trust them,
my climbing partners (several and of varied experience from beginner to many
years of high quality) trust them. When they look manky, I piff them. At
the current price of gear here, compared to what seems downright cheap in
USA and europe, its fairly standard practice.
I guess it depends on who/what you trust, how much you have in the bank, and
whether you have confidence in your ability to tie a few tape knots.
Cheers
DJV
(in Australia. No I don't speak German, nor am I in europe)
Christian Brooks
all tie, use and trust our knotted slings for appropiate situations. But, for
certain pieces of gear, I think sewn is far surperior and worth the $. Rex's
example of Aiders is a good one. Stiff, sewn draws also excel to on this
desperate sport clips. But, for aid gear especially, you don't want anything
shifting around on you. I almost zippered some aid gear yesterday because of
the classic D ring biner shift (scary). The whole rig shifted maybe a 1/4 of an
inch, but when you sitting on a sawed-off, tied-off, hand placed #1 lost arrow,
you don't even want the wind to blow...
Besides, homemade aiders get tangled up to easy, their hard to get your feet in,
and the wind blows them astray.
Christian
Dingus Milktoast
>
> Am I missing something here? are you all saying you buy sewn slings for
> EVERYTHING?
Do words print upside down there? No one said to buy sewn
slings for EVERYTHING. What they said was to buy sewn gear
instead of attempting to sew it oneself.
> OH to belong to a mega consumer society. :)
Oh to take a flying jump to a conclusion (one you already
reached in the first place?).
> Maybe its because we here are less litigous, but most of my slings and draws
> are home made.
Ever stood in home made aiders for a couple of days?
> Tied, not sewn (as if I would trust my sewing).
Right, tied, not sewn aiders? Ever done it? I have. My
verdict: they suck.
> I guess it depends on who/what you trust, how much you have in the bank, and
> whether you have confidence in your ability to tie a few tape knots.
I had this nail I needed to drive flush with the wood. I
didn't have a nail punch. So I used a screwdriver and beat
on the handle with a rock. Yes, I didn't have a hammer
either. Worked OK.
But a hammer and a nail punch would have worked better. Get
the drift?
DMT
Dingus Milktoast
I posted this once before. But some folks may not have seen
it. Please read the following TR before sewing your own
gear...
Subject: Re: my old harness. when do i retire?
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:43:57 -0700
From: Dingus Milktoast <crha...@midtown.net>
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
I have to tell this one!
I started climbing in middle Tennessee in or around 1973.
Back then, there
were
no other climbers to be found anywhere in those parts, and
certainly none
that
would talk to a snot nosed obnoxious teenager. I went to the
library and
found
a how-to book from the 60's! I was also lucky enough to get
a copy of Royal
Robbins beginner rock climbing book. Thus informed, I bought
a goldline 7/16
lead rope (couldn't afford those cool looking European
kernmantles), a few
biners and some 1 inch webbing. That was it. My climbing
career was born.
It was a long time before I met a real climber willing to
talk to me. The
only
time I came close was when I quizzed my (now)
ex-brother-in-law, who had
climbed Denali around '71, about my equipment. His response
on seeing the
pile
of gear I had was to inform my father that I was going to
die a sudden and
perhaps tragic death (the tragedy of which he wasn't
convinced) and that he
wanted no part of it! Henry, if you're out there... I nurse
grudges the way
Jack Benny nursed his bank accounts... and your debt to the
Milktoast clan
has
yet to be settled!
ANYWAY, I had to teach every prospective partner how to
climb. An
interesting
notion when you consider what I actually knew about climbing
could have been
summed up in far fewer words than I have already expended
with this
ridiculous
tale! Jr. Bishop became my first and longest living partner,
in that he's
still
kicking and he still climbs. He was there on day one, when I
threw the rope
over the cliff at Underground City and backed my quivering
butt over the
void
for my first rappel ever. Talk about a leap of faith! My
"harness" was a
long
sling rigged as a diaper harness. My rap device was a single
"Liberty" biner
with the rope wrapped around the shaft of the biner twice.
Let me tell you
newbies something... do not try this at home! A goldline has
a lot of
stretch;
much more so than these ropes we use today. A twiced-wrapped
biner on a
goldline rope produces a lot of heat and a lot of velocity!
A diaper harness
produces a lot of pain! But we survived and ever so slowly
learned the
critical lessons.
I soon came to the understanding that while a diaper harness
is OK for
rappelling in a pinch, it is highly unsuited for leading (it
falls down the
leg
when you high step and causes you to get stuck in a chicken
leg position,
over
and over again). I needed to get one of those custom made
harnesses, but was
too busy spending all of my free cash on beer, dope and gas
(with gas being
the
lions share of the budget... it was 13 miles just to get out
to where the
sun
actually shined!). So I made a harness!
Kids, friends, noblemen, countrymen, flamers... lend me your
ears. I come
not
to praise homemade gear, but to burn it! If I only
contribute one worthy
thing
to this newsgroup, let me go out with this advice... DO NOT
EVER MAKE YOUR
OWN
CLIMBING HARNESS! Seems like pathetically simple advice on
the surface, but
you'd be surprised. No, I take that back. Judging by the
content and
responses
to a recent spate of threads, perhaps this advice is
desperately needed.
Here's
what I did...
Somewhere, my Pop got a hold of some seat belt webbing. At
that time, there
were just 2 harnesses available in the only climbing shop in
Nashville
Tennessee (Cumberland Transit, I think, for you middle
earther's). The
Whillians Sit Harness, a torture device designed by militant
feminists in an
attempt to sterilize the male anglo climbing population (or
designed by
someone
who's balls were made of steel and therefore immune to the
single piece of
webbing that came up right through the middle of the legs)
and a Robbins
Harness made of 1 inch webbing, designed by someone who
hadn't a clue (or
more
likely by a gentleman who never saw the need to improve upon
his beloved
swami
but dutifully tried to emulate his friend Chouinard to
design and market
gear
for the masses - his heart just wasn't in it). I didn't like
either of them
and
knew I could design a more comfortable harness. Since I had
no money, the
decision was practically made for me!
I took that 2" (or 2.5") webbing and crafted a really cool
harness; very
comfortable. It was a precursor to modern big wall harnesses
in every way
except one... THREAD! I swear to god, I'm really not this
stupid (as the
final
piece of this story will demonstrate), but I figured that
one type of thread
was as good as another, so I used some thread I pinched from
my mother's
sewing
machine! I stitched the hell out of it, made a buckle out of
a thingy taken
from a cargo-hold army webbing contraption. Come to think of
it, I used to
use
the cargo strap (second hand army surplus of course) as a
swami for a while.
Lacking the finer details of double overhand knots and all
(it was 2 or 3
years
before I learned a bowline and almost 2 decades before I
learned to
pronounce
it correctly!), I just tied square knots! I'm serious, so
quit laughing!
Anyway, off to the cliffs I go. Remember, I was the
"experienced" climber in
those parts, so almost every outing began with a search for
a crash test
dummy,
er, I mean a willing and somewhat capable partner who could
meet the basic
requirement of being able to speak and walk while stoned.
This day it was
Ronnie.
Ronnie had never climbed before. But he had gone caving with
us (a WHOLE
nuther
story there, let me tell you!) and showed some grit and
determination. So we
went to a cliff called Little Frog for some rap instruction.
Little Frog was
where I learned about free hanging rappels. You backed over
this crumbling
limestone edge for about 10 feet, then it was clean air for
100 feet to the
dirt. Oh, and you also had to pick your way through the
branches of an
ancient
white oak about 50 feet up. Perfect place to teach someone
to rappel,
wouldn't
you say? I gave Ronnie my new harness, telling him that he
deserved the
comfort
since it was his first day "mountain climbing." I stuck with
my tried and
true
diaper rig. After showing Ronnie the rudimentary clip in
method and making
him
show it back, I rapped down to get the ropes though the tree
branches. I had
by
this time learned to belay a rappel from below and had that
in mind as well.
Ronnie started down...
He was doing fine, I swear! It's just that the prospect of
dealing with the
tree branches made him visibly nervous. He kept lowering and
stopping in
jerks,
more so as he neared the tree. He kept this up in the face
of my howls of
laughter (teen aged encouragement) until he was about 5 feet
above the
branch.
He came to sudden stop accompanied by a loud RIIIIIIIIP! He
dropped
suddenly,
only to stop again astraddle the branch! I mean he whacked
that branch HARD,
right between the legs. A quick inspection of the situation
revealed that
one
of the legs of my "new" harness had given way entirely...
that leg was
dangling
in space! The other leg was in imminent danger of joining
it's mate. And
Ronnie
was slightly concerned.
In fact, the howl of invectives that rained down upon my
thick head from 50
feet up was richly deserved. Being the person that I am, I
shouted right
back
that Ronnie needed an attitude check and that if he didn't
stop insulting my
family, especially my mother, he could figure a way out of
that tree by
himself!
We finally calmed down enough to assess the situation. Down
climbing the
tree
was out of the question. The branch was too thin. He was too
far away from
the
trunk. Because of the way he'd come down on it, it held
probably half his
weight and bowed down at least 10 feet, meaning that that
when he unweighted
it, it was going to zing back up. It also meant that when he
re-weighted the
harness, even more stress was going to be placed on the
remaining threads.
We
pondered the possibilities and the greater meaning for life
for at least 20
minutes, till I judged that there was only one "sensible"
solution.
"Ronnie," I drawled, "You just gotta go for it! Finish the
rappel." Well,
that
unleashed a whole new fury of profanity in my direction,
till he finally
realized that I was right. We were too far from anywhere to
go get help and
neither one of us would have resorted to that in any event.
He finally slid
off
the branch (onto the side that still had a leg) and
remarkably, finished the
rappel unscathed, one leg dangling down, the waist belt
halfway up his back,
gripping the rope white knuckled and a look of deserved
terror etched on his
face. I stood beneath him, arms up like a spotter, as if I
were going to
catch
him if he fell (confession time... I had no intention of
catching him. He
insisted I stand there and I quietly decided to dive for
cover at the first
hint of another tear! - there I told you my intelligence was
only partially
suspect).
He couldn't get out of that harness fast enough! He actually
threw it to the
ground. I inspected it quietly. The other leg as a whisper
away from the
same
fate as the first. The entire thing was about to
disintegrate! I showed it
to
Ronnie. "What kind of thread is this?" He asked angrily.
When I told him
where
it came from he just looked at me, for a long time. That was
the defining
moment for me and the word incredulity! He silently handed
me the harness
back
and walked away.
Ronnie never, and I mean never, climbed with me or anyone
else again. I went
on
to learn a most valuable lesson at someone else's expense
and find myself
laughing about the whole thing 20 plus years later. I have
never told any of
my
early climbing, driving and caving tales to my parents. Even
to this day,
I'd
feel terrible if I caused such a shock to their systems. My
Pop did at one
point ask me if I knew where his seatbelt webbing was. He
didn't believe me
when I told him I had no idea, just like he never accepted
that I knew
nothing
about his disappearing hammers! Now that I'm a parent, I
live in terror that
my
kids will secretly do the same kinds of things I did!
So that is the tale of my first and only piece of homemade
climbing gear. If
you're going to get a harness, make it a good one.
DMT
Rex Pieper
>Am I missing something here? are you all saying you buy sewn slings
>for EVERYTHING?
Not me. I use lots of tied slings. Just not wild about homesewn stuff as
I had a partner who sewed his own daisys out of (yikes) 1/2" webbing which
was very spooky for anything other than gear racking stuff in the
atom smasher which is where they ended up.
-Rex Pieper
Kevin Fons
Great story Dingus. I laughed my ass off. It brings back a ton of
memmories from whe I leaned to climb.
Kevin
--
=========================================================
Kevin Fons <kf...@execpc.com>
Windsor, Wisconsin
DLFA - Here to Help! Free the Psamead
Matt Rogers
$5.00 especially considering that most of the cliffs in PA are one pitch. I
will say again that I am not using my own gear to hold a fall or for use in
anchores, just non-critical gear.
"Michael A. Riches" >
x15x15
> Ever stood in home made aiders for a couple of days?
Yes sir. One time. Boy, was I proud when I was finished making them. They
looked so, so professional and the loops were just right and those fucking
knots........................
x15x15
-----------------------------------------------------------
Do the Right Thing
www.sharetrails.org
Matt Rogers
stiched tails so I would not have to trust the stiching. It looks good and
is about 120cm long. Getting the stiching correct and uniform is harder
than it seems and I sure rejected many bartacks. But I feel that I the
quality control is improving. I am still looking for someone to test a
sling though.
DJV_In_Aus
>I think that Rex's point was more geared towards specific types of slings.
We
>all tie, use and trust our knotted slings for appropiate situations. But,
for
>certain pieces of gear, I think sewn is far surperior and worth the $.
Rex's
OK it was not quite clear and though I was pretty sure that tied slings are
a universal truth. There was thought that perhaps given the relative
cheapness of gear and high litigation costs, perhaps sewn gear would be the
norm (its my cliff and I dont want to be sued so use bought gear type of
thing) We sometimes get cavers on our land who trip on the way to a cave as
they cross private land and think they might sue us.
I also heard a story from a climbing partner recently that down bags are
banned in some parks and if you are caught out and have a down bag you get
to pay the rescue bill. something like that anyway. Can anyone verify/deny
this rather nifty rumour?
I have never aid climbed but I can understand your points. I thought I did
read somewhere about using pieces of thin plastic hose hose slid into the
tube and tied into the loops to reinforce and stiffen the 'step' part of a
hand made (knotted) sling ladder type thingy (dont ask me what its called,
I'm A: a chemical engineer B: a programmer C: NOT a dictionary)
btw Thanks for taking the bait Dingus. There truly is one born every minute.
(bwahahahahahaha cartoon like laugh)
Cheers
DJV
Rex Pieper
>I also heard a story from a climbing partner recently that down bags are
>banned in some parks and if you are caught out and have a down bag you get
>to pay the rescue bill. something like that anyway. Can anyone verify/deny
>this rather nifty rumour?
You've got it partially right. In Yosemite, if you
are rescued off a big wall due to not being able
to weather a storm AND you have a down sleeping
bag, the NPS probably will cite you for "creating
a hazardous situation" and fine you/bill you for
rescue costs. Going up without a rainfly for your
portaledge, or other forms of unpreparedness can
also land you into trouble *if* you need a rescue.
But just going up without that junk, say if you're
going for a speed ascent, won't get you in trouble
unless you screw up and scream for a chopper.
ange.hamish
"Dingus Milktoast" <crha...@midtown.net> wrote in message
news:3AB62A48...@midtown.net...
> > Maybe its because we here are less litigous, but most of my slings and
draws
> > are home made.
>
> Ever stood in home made aiders for a couple of days?
>
> > Tied, not sewn (as if I would trust my sewing).
>
> Right, tied, not sewn aiders? Ever done it? I have. My
> verdict: they suck.
Jumping to the aid (sorry) of my Australian Neighbor, all the stuff we seem
to make for ourselves in this part of the world is not as inadequate as
Dingus may think. Properly tied aiders do not have twisted tape in the steps
as someone mentioned above. You can slide strips of 2 mm sheet plastic
(obtained from chopping up various liquid containers) into the 1inch tape
and you get stiffeners as durable as any bought version. I priced a
comercial sewn aider the other day (5 step with only nylon coated steps for
stiffing etc) at NZ$99 (about US$44ish I'd guess). My homemade version of
this shiny import would have to be pretty bad to justify buying the
commercial version.
Hamish, New Zealand.
Michael A. Riches
ange....@actrix.co.nz wrote on 3/21/01 4:04 AM:
There are many many ways to save a buck on gear. This would not only be
acceptable but excellent in my book. I think what the majority of us, that
had reservations, were trying to do was talk the original poster out of
sewing his own stuff. Dingus was simply referring to webbing that was tied
with footholds to act as aiders...a once common practice. Your elaboration's
and advancements in self made gear will win both of you the recdotMcGyver of
the year award (Congratulations, much adulation's and all that)...I just
hope that our wayward seamstress doesn't end up with the recdotDarwinism
award for the year...
The Rockrat...(O.K...Sooooo....Dingus really doesn't need anybody to come to
"his" aid, but what the heck...I was sitting here, with nothing better to do
at the time...you know the story....)
Dingus Milktoast
>
> Jumping to the aid (sorry) of my Australian Neighbor, all the stuff we seem
> to make for ourselves in this part of the world is not as inadequate as
> Dingus may think.
It's totally inadequate for me.
> Properly tied aiders do not have twisted tape in the steps
> as someone mentioned above.
I didn't say anything about twists. I said they suck. It's
knot what you think.
> My homemade version of
> this shiny import would have to be pretty bad to justify buying the
> commercial version.
>
> Hamish, New Zealand.
Whatever dude. Hope it works out for you. Have you actually
used them? For like a real route?
DMT
Bill Zaumen
<crha...@midtown.net> wrote:
> "ange.hamish" wrote:
> >
> > Jumping to the aid (sorry) of my Australian Neighbor, all the stuff we seem
> > to make for ourselves in this part of the world is not as inadequate as
> > Dingus may think.
>
> It's totally inadequate for me.
<snip>
> > Hamish, New Zealand.
>
> Whatever dude. Hope it works out for you. Have you actually
> used them? For like a real route?
I've used home-made aiders before commercially sewn ones were available
or popular.
These aiders used knots to make the steps, and once I was satisfied with
the step size, I sewed some additional webbing onto the steps to help
hold them open. Regardless of how much better the commericial ones are,
these worked fine on several Yosemite walls, and seemed better than
ordinary knoted aiders, so I'd expect that the one Hamish uses would be
OK on a real route as well.
Bill
--
As an anti-spam measure, my email address is only provided in a GIF
file. Please see <http://home.pacbell.net/zaumen/email.gif>.
Spammers can try mailto:s34...@aol.com mailto:sdkj34...@aol.com
Michael A. Riches
nobody-2003...@adsl-209-233-20-69.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net, Bill
Zaumen at nob...@nospam.pacbell.net wrote on 3/20/01 8:05 PM:
>> Whatever dude. Hope it works out for you. Have you actually
>> used them? For like a real route?
>
> I've used home-made aiders before commercially sewn ones were available
> or popular.
>
> These aiders used knots to make the steps, and once I was satisfied with
> the step size, I sewed some additional webbing onto the steps to help
> hold them open. Regardless of how much better the commericial ones are,
> these worked fine on several Yosemite walls, and seemed better than
> ordinary knoted aiders, so I'd expect that the one Hamish uses would be
> OK on a real route as well.
>
> Bill
What's the matter Bill??? Nobody will play with you anymore, so you have to
go out and look for people that will pick on you???
What a piece of work you are...
The Rockrat...
Tim Stich
Dingus Milktoast wrote:
> (much hilarity edited out)
>
> So that is the tale of my first and only piece of homemade
> climbing gear. If
> you're going to get a harness, make it a good one.
>
> DMT
I'm with you there, Señor Toast.
I thought fondly of homemade gear at one time, but I'm taking a pretty dim view
of it now. Home made gear is equivalent to experimental gear. You have no
friggin' idea how each piece will perform because you can never reproduce the
exact quality of stitching each time.
I once sewed my own caving gear, due to the horrible influences of books written
by degenerate individuals who had lived in the 60s without jobs or much cash. I
was in college at the time. I made footloops, slings for the footloops and a
chest harness. My main harness was a Chouinard factory job. Hey I didn't trust my
handiwork *that* much! I climbed rope pitches in the 350 foot range frequently on
that gear. I still have it, actually. I think it's time to test that home made
junk and see what happens.
I remember one caving trip years ago with some stoner guys. One guy named Troy,
the slowest talking stoner, didn't have a factory sewn harness. He used one he
had obviously sewed himself with a sewing awl. Now the thread was some beefy
nylon stuff, but his technique was, shall we say, random. The stitching was
irregular - nothing was straight. He stitched it in strange places. It didn't
look like he had cinched down each needle pass evenly either. It was frightening.
He lived through the caving experience, as I recall. Hopefully he lost the
harness before his next trip.
So just eat refried beans for dinner for a few months to save money and buy
factory made gear.
-Tim Stich
Bill Zaumen
<rock...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Michael, are you having a bad hair day or something?
Chris Wegener
Actually I think you are being more than a bit harsh. My wall career, short
and undistinguished as it was, predated professionally sewn gear. All of
our slings, aiders and harnesses, actually swami belts, were hand tied.
They worked fine. I am not subtle enough to be able to distinguish the fine
gradations of pain that a wall inflicts on me that I can differentiate
between the pain caused by the environment and the pain caused by my hand
tied gear. Do I wish I had had bartacked daisy chains, stiffened aiders
with hand loops and a padded harness? Of course I do. The pain I and
others endured inspired the creation and distribution of these products.
The overriding point is that the hand tied gear all worked and worked well.
(At least I managed to thrutch my way up a few walls.) If the guy wants to
do it I say go for it. If nothing else it will inspire him to save his cash
and buy some better gear for his next adventure.
Chris
Dingus Milktoast
>
> Actually I think you are being more than a bit harsh.
So what else is new? Besides, if you will recall, I was
trolled into this thread (if you choose to believe that is).
> The pain I and
> others endured inspired the creation and distribution of these products.
A. Exhibit A. You make my argument for me. And we weren't
talking about a bunch of hand tied gear. We were talking
aiders specifically.
> The overriding point is that the hand tied gear all worked and worked well.
> (At least I managed to thrutch my way up a few walls.) If the guy wants to
> do it I say go for it.
So do I. But I suspect those defenders of said knotted
aiders have yet to deploy them. If they have, cool. I salute
their suffering as I salute yours.
> If nothing else it will inspire him to save his cash
> and buy some better gear for his next adventure.
See, here is the real meat of the issue. I can work for 2
hours at my chosen profession, buy a set of aiders and have
plenty of gas and beer money left over.
Now add up all the time to make a set of decent knotted
aiders, replete with plastic inserts, hero loops, blah blah.
Factor in the time to buy the gear. Two hours end to end?
Maybe, maybe not. But no one's paying me to knot slings. My
time could be better spent sitting on the couch, reading
Thoreau or some other notable cheapskate who lived on the
backs of his friends and preached "economy."
But I guess if you live in some distant 3rd world nation
then time is the only wealth in abundance. Do whatever
works.
DMT
stinkwagen
> > If nothing else it will inspire him to save his cash
> > and buy some better gear for his next adventure.
>
> See, here is the real meat of the issue. I can work for 2
> hours at my chosen profession, buy a set of aiders and have
> plenty of gas and beer money left over.
At 40$/aider, that puts you at around 80K$/yr, or are we talking
about a set of 4 aiders? If you're bringing home that dough then
I agree with your sentiments. Just buy the damn things. If you're
only getting $8 an hour, I'd say pay your room/board/gas/beer bills
first, then decide whether you're gonna tie or buy.
> Now add up all the time to make a set of decent knotted
> aiders, replete with plastic inserts, hero loops, blah blah.
> Factor in the time to buy the gear. Two hours end to end?
> Maybe, maybe not. But no one's paying me to knot slings.
You're being compensated at the rate of $40/aider minus your cost.
You could also double dip by tieing your aiders at work instead of
reading/posting to rec.climbing.
> But I guess if you live in some distant 3rd world nation
> then time is the only wealth in abundance. Do whatever
> works.
Right. If he's got more time than money. If he doesn't get to
decide how many paid hours he's gonna work, and he doesn't make
$40 hour, your argument does not apply.
Chuck
Inez Drixelius
<crha...@midtown.net> wrote:
> So do I. But I suspect those defenders of said knotted
> aiders have yet to deploy them. If they have, cool. I salute
> their suffering as I salute yours.
Now, now Dingus--I ascended Half Dome with knotted aiders (manufactured by
Brutus) and they worked fine. I even did the Tyrolian off the Lost Arrow
Tip using said aiders and made it across in fabulous (!) style. No, I
didn't suffer, probably because ignorance is bliss. What did I know?
In my ignorance, however, the first time I used sewn aiders I promptly
dropped one because I didn't use a locker on my daisy. The thing was
stiff and big and somehow the gate was forced open and whush...there it
went. Talk about embarrassing! Not to mention learning the hard way. My
flimsy knotted aiders never went anywhere. Needless to say, using a
locker is rule #1. But that is another subject altogether. My saving
grace was Amanda's admission that she too had dropped an aider high on El
Cap. I was just on Rixon and was able to retrieve the thing later that
day.
> See, here is the real meat of the issue. I can work for 2
> hours at my chosen profession, buy a set of aiders and have
> plenty of gas and beer money left over.
It is fun knotting aiders with a bottle of wine in front of you. Enables
you to spin endless tales of glory you have yet to encounter.
> Now add up all the time to make a set of decent knotted
> aiders, replete with plastic inserts, hero loops, blah blah.
No inserts for me. I stood proudly on my knots. I still have feet too.
> But I guess if you live in some distant 3rd world nation
> then time is the only wealth in abundance. Do whatever
> works.
You are right of course, but not all people who knot their own aiders are
idiots. Some just want to experience the thrill of the ultimate retro
gear. So, why do I love those ancient rigid friends? People tell me I am
a fool...
Many hugs, my rigid friend lover
Gnar-Gnar
Matt Rogers
getting paid to do anything. I have a few hours each day that I can choose
to spend any way I wish. This time may be used to relax or be put to use by
making some gear. You may be able to work one hour of overtime and buy a
pair of aiders, but I can't. If I can make a pair in 6 hours, then I have
saved myself money. Any fool can tie twently overhand knots in an hour but
this is not the point. I wanted to find out if my stiching is good ehough
to hold my weight in aiders. I finished a daisy chain and bounce tested it
in the basement yesterday. No stiches broke at about 200lbs of weight and
considering that there are two bartacks and BD's daisys are rated to 3kn or
just about 600 or so pounds, then I think that I have done a good job.
Saved myself $6.
"stinkwagen" <cspi...@biostat.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.01032...@atlas.biostat.washington.edu...
stinkwagen
> Chuck has hit it right on the Nose. I am a student right now and I am not
> getting paid to do anything. I have a few hours each day that I can choose
> to spend any way I wish. This time may be used to relax or be put to use by
> making some gear. You may be able to work one hour of overtime and buy a
> pair of aiders, but I can't. If I can make a pair in 6 hours, then I have
> saved myself money. Any fool can tie twently overhand knots in an hour but
> this is not the point. I wanted to find out if my stiching is good ehough
> to hold my weight in aiders. I finished a daisy chain and bounce tested it
> in the basement yesterday. No stiches broke at about 200lbs of weight and
> considering that there are two bartacks and BD's daisys are rated to 3kn or
> just about 600 or so pounds, then I think that I have done a good job.
> Saved myself $6.
Dude,
Do your parents know what you're doing? Maybe if you told 'em, they'd
be horrified enough shell out the six bucks.
After reading your post I'm worried that I might have unwittingly
fueled your dangerous path. My reply to Dingus was purely an argument
over the relative values of time and money, comfort and
convenience. Sounds like what you're doing might also be putting
morbidity and mortality into the mix. My argument assumed either finished
product would be SAFE to use. What you've written does not convince me
that your aiders are sure to hold you.
The logic behind your aider-testing conclusion appears flawed. When
BD says something tests to 6kn, it doesn't mean they put 200 lbs on `em
and then call `em good when no stitches break. It's more complicated than
that. First, they put MORE than 6kn on finished product. Second, they
do not base their conclusions on a test weight significantly less than the
reported strength and some extrapolations.
If I were you, I'd get more expertise on testing them, or shell out the
six bucks to someone who has the expertise.
Chuck
Russ Walling
> In my ignorance, however, the first time I used sewn aiders I promptly
> dropped one because I didn't use a locker on my daisy. The thing was
> stiff and big and somehow the gate was forced open and whush...there it
> went. Talk about embarrassing! Not to mention learning the hard way. My
> flimsy knotted aiders never went anywhere. Needless to say, using a
> locker is rule #1. But that is another subject altogether.
A locker on the daisy into the aider? Not the way I'm doing it....
maybe rule number 5. Care to explain?
adios,
Russ
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Matt Rogers
pocket. This is a realitively low amount force, because they are not
designed for anything but body weight. I was just noting that with the 200
lbs, which is all I can weigh at this moment, that it will hold my body
weight and that I am willing to bet that it would hold 600lbs or the
breaking strength of the BD product. This would lead me to conclude that
mine can hold 3kn, now I haven't tested it yet, but I am in the process of
doing that. I am merely noting that my stiches are not crap and what they
ultimately will hold will be found out soon. How about you hold your
comments until I test the gear and find out the breaking strengths. Then
you can make all the comments you wish, but until then, you don't know if
they will hold more than the BD ones. I don't either and that is why I am
testing their strenghts. Stop assuming that they are crap and wait and see.
"stinkwagen" <cspi...@biostat.washington.edu> wrote in message \> The
Inez Drixelius
> A locker on the daisy into the aider? Not the way I'm doing it....
> maybe rule number 5. Care to explain?
Aider on a locker to the sling affixed to my harness. I shouldn't have
said daisy. (Hell, its been 5 years, what do I know and/or remember...)
Then another working biner on the locker. Yeah, that is how it worked.
My point was that I was stupid to have the aiders in a regular oval and
not a locking biner.
God, am I glad I sold my aid stuff. What a hassle. Aid climbing 101 will
not have to be repeated. Rule number 6.
Inez
Rob Williams
Inez Drixelius wrote:
[snip]
>. . . So, why do I love those ancient rigid friends? People tell me I am
> a fool...
Maybe because you are a woman? Suzi(tm) loves rigid friends too.
> Many hugs, my rigid friend lover
> Gnar-Gnar
You go girl!
Rob "Rigid Friend"
Russ Walling
bartacks on moms machine. I don't care what the thread is, what the
pattern is, or how many times you go over a given section. Second
point, make the stinkin aiders and just sew the piss out of them. I did
it in the 70's with moms machine, and they did work, for a while, then
fell part. I sewed the piss out of them and they still broke. See for
yourself. Next, daisy chains are a whole differnt animal. Home
versions of this are just not worth the risk.... skip the kN crap....
even if you get a fairly strong product, time and abrasion will weaken
your home model faster than a commercailly made product. Fourth point:
bouncing around on the rafters ain't it. You want to test something
cheap? Go buy a come-a-long or borrow one. Hook you stuff into it and
start cranking. If the webbing breaks and the stitching holds, good for
you. If the stitching rips, too bad for you. At least you will know
either way. The total outlay for the "testing apparatus" is about
$15.00 at a Home Depot. Be forwarned that when the stitches or webbing
busts, the business end of the device will rifle back at you and try to
rip off your testicles. Fifth and final point: you only live once and
even vultures need to eat...go wild.
adios,
Russ
--
Dingus Milktoast
>
> You're being compensated at the rate of $40/aider minus your cost.
> You could also double dip by tieing your aiders at work instead of
> reading/posting to rec.climbing.
You make a lot of assumptions pal.
DMT
Dingus Milktoast
>
> No inserts for me. I stood proudly on my knots. I still have feet too.
My sweetness, you weigh about 1/5 of me. My knots are not
your knots!
Cheers.
DMT
Inez Drixelius
<rwil...@martinbischoff.com> wrote:
> Inez Drixelius wrote:
> [snip]
> >. . . So, why do I love those ancient rigid friends? People tell me I am
> > a fool...
>
> Maybe because you are a woman? Suzi(tm) loves rigid friends too.
>
> You go girl!
I am not a woman. I am certainly not a girl. I am a crone.
Inez
Matt Rogers
using 1 inch webbing and it does not break before my stiches, you say that
it's no good. But the 11/16 webbing like BD and it does break before the
stiches, what then? It all depends on the webbing you use and that is why I
want to find a calibrated test machine. Thanks for backing me up on the
aiders though. I know they won't last as long as commercial ones, but most
other people don't understand that. I'm looking for something that is cheap
and I can beat up while I'm tring to learn.
"Russ Walling" <Ru...@FishProducts.com> wrote in message
news:3AB91E...@FishProducts.com...
John Vawter
>
> Dingus Milktoast wrote:
>
>
>> (much hilarity edited out)
>>
>> So that is the tale of my first and only piece of homemade
>> climbing gear. If
>> you're going to get a harness, make it a good one.
>>
>> DMT
>
>
> I'm with you there, Señor Toast.
>
> I thought fondly of homemade gear at one time, but I'm taking a pretty dim view
> of it now. Home made gear is equivalent to experimental gear. You have no
> friggin' idea how each piece will perform because you can never reproduce the
> exact quality of stitching each time.
Well I would never have the temerity to sew a harness, though Tom
Compare, who ran A Striving After Wind in San Diego in the early 70's,
used to sew "super swamis" that worked pretty well. Sold them out of his
mountaineering shop in the days before fear of lawsuits put an end to
all those little cottage industries.
But I did sew my own aiders on my mom's sewing machine. It wasn't hard.
Just time consuming. And after almost 30 years of use, including that
wall in Mexico a year and a half ago, they show no signs of giving up.
JKVawter
Matt Rogers
went all the way around the jack both top and bottom and after 5 min of
grueling raising of the jack. The webbing finally broke. It broke right in
the middle of a flat side, not at a corner, so it was not weakened by the
corners of the jack and not even one of my bartacks gave out. The first
stiching loosened a bit but is still in working order. This proves all of
you wrong that said that homemade stuff was crap and I will test a few more
to be certain, but the results are out. You can make strong homemade gear.
Matt (not a girly seamstress) Rogers
"Matt Rogers" <dmro...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:tbijec8...@corp.supernews.com...
Mad Dog
It missed my testicles but the scar tissue is still evident after the first day
of nude bouldering each spring.
In article <3AB91E...@FishProducts.com>, Russ says...
Hal Murray
> I finished a daisy chain and bounce tested it
>in the basement yesterday. No stiches broke at about 200lbs of weight and
>considering that there are two bartacks and BD's daisys are rated to 3kn or
>just about 600 or so pounds
Ages ago, I measured me bouncing on a sling. I think the peak was
about twice my weight.
If you are interested in forces in the range of 600 pounds, you
might be able to do your own tests by finding a tree with a large
branch in the right place and getting several friends to help
provide weight. I'm thinking of a non-bouncing test. Just
slowly add more people/weight. That probably takes a reasonably
high branch.
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employeers. I hate spam.
N42461
And I was really shamed by Tom's great cord report and all.......and got to
wondering how I would test some stiched webbing if I wanted to...........
So I get home, find some old tat, and get out the hydraulic floor jack. Junior
helped. Appealled to his 12 year old sense of curiosity.
First, this is an old K-Mart 1 1/2 ton cheapo floor jack. I took of the thing
that would contact the pickup frame and rigged a round bar thru the hole. Then
I tied some 9/16 webbing (that had been on a rap station for a while, but was
still somewhat supple) and looped it around the axel of the jack wheels. and
tied it with a waterknot. (no sharp edges)
So junior and I set to pumpin' n' leverin' and we got it to break the webbing.
Cool. Ripped in the center of the peice, not on the knot.
Next we tried with a peice of 1 inch. Notice I said tried. It got all tight and
made lots of noises but the jack was'nt manly enough. The 1 inch was frayed and
stiff, but would not break.
So Matt, if you want to break some webbing, borrow a decent sized (3 ton?)
floor jack. None of that whipping cable stuff like :
>Russ Walling wrote:
>Be forwarned that when the stitches or webbing
>busts, the business end of the device will rifle back at you and try to
>rip off your testicles
Yikes. Just the thought.
Backyard Bob
Hal Murray
>So Matt, if you want to break some webbing, borrow a decent sized (3 ton?)
>floor jack. None of that whipping cable stuff like :
Be very careful with flying nylon too.
It may not mess up your testicles as easily as flying steel,
but it can easily trash your eyes.
Bill Zaumen
<dmro...@fast.net> wrote:
> Chuck has hit it right on the Nose. I am a student right now and I am not
> getting paid to do anything. .... I wanted to find out if my stiching
> is good ehough to hold my weight in aiders. ...
If you can't afford the right equipment (likely if you are a student with
a limited income), try using a speedy stitcher to sew them, using the
small needle and nylon thread that comes with it. It won't take much
stitching to get something that is fairly strong. For aiders, try
four lines 2 inches long, running parallel to the webbing, with
stitches every 1/8 of an inch. The material will have a slight tendency
to 'bunch up' around the sewing, which can form grooves that protect the
stitching somewhat. The lines should be roughly evenly distributed across
the width of the webbing.
Make a simple loop first (it won't take long), and try the test Hal
Murray suggested. Some friends once tested sewn slings made this
way and the slings broke at well over 5000 lb, with the stitching 3 to
4 inches long, so I'd expect 2 inches would be OK for aiders, but
you should do your own test as well. BTW, in the test, the webbing
failed, not the stitching (and this was before sewn slings were
available in climbing shops).
BIll
Donovan White
guess is that you could pay for factory-made gear with a couple of hours at
a part-time job at McDonald's.
It's this kind of logic that keeps me from getting involved in all sorts of
things - reshingling the roof myself is the latest.
I learned it the hard way, having blown $1500 on a lawn tractor with $250
annual maintenance costs plus $1000 for transmission repairs in order to
save having to pay 40 bucks each time to get the lawn mowed and 25 bucks to
get the driveway plowed.
dw
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> How can you just judge a sling on the strength of the webbing? If I am
> using 1 inch webbing and it does not break before my stiches, you say that
> it's no good.
One measure of quality stitching is that the joined section is
actually stronger than the rest of the webbing. If your homemade
slings fail at the stitching you're not even close to having a durable
connection.
> But the 11/16 webbing like BD and it does break before the
> stiches, what then? It all depends on the webbing you use and that is why I
> want to find a calibrated test machine. Thanks for backing me up on the
> aiders though. I know they won't last as long as commercial ones, but most
> other people don't understand that. I'm looking for something that is cheap
> and I can beat up while I'm tring to learn.
Why not tie knots to make your aiders? That's what I did when I
started out.
Ken
Dingus Milktoast
>
>
> OH to belong to a mega consumer society. :)
>
And then DJV_In_Aus wrote:
>
> btw Thanks for taking the bait Dingus. There truly is one born every minute.
> (bwahahahahahaha cartoon like laugh)
A. I don't believe you were trolling.
B. You're all right in my book, even if your aiders DO suck
(and they do).
Then I went on to post something about the economics of
store bought vs. making yer own aiders, thereby validating
your original contention. I thought you'd flame me for it,
but you're a smart SOB and apparently didn't care or saw
through my reverse troll.
Couple of days ago I watched Fight Club (those guys would
make good aid climbers), somehow believing I knew what the
movie was about...
And then last night I got my new gear catalog in the mail
(mountain gear). On the inside of the back cover page, in
all it's glory, I saw:
New! Five Ten Limited Edition Steph Davis Zlipper
Autographed, matching gold climbing slippers and chalk bag.
I wonder why no accessory belt, but you get the drift.
DJV, you couldn't have hit the nail more squarely with your
rock had you used a laser guided sight! About blew coffee
through me nose I did.
Are you accepting emigration applications? Or is it too late
for us money grubbing Yanks?
DMT
Tim Stich
Dingus Milktoast wrote:
> And then last night I got my new gear catalog in the mail
> (mountain gear). On the inside of the back cover page, in
> all it's glory, I saw:
>
> New! Five Ten Limited Edition Steph Davis Zlipper
Who the hell is Steph Davis? I'm kidding of course. I would never show such
indignation about my ignorance of Steph Davis. I got that catalog as well. Damn,
are those shoes pimp. Wuzzup wit dat? Sheeeet, dog!
> Autographed, matching gold climbing slippers and chalk bag.
> I wonder why no accessory belt, but you get the drift.
Maybe they come with those little leather man purses from the 80s. Now you're
talking classy. Some purple lip gloss would be nice as well.
-Tim Stich
Jules
> Maybe they come with those little leather man purses from the
80s. Now you're
> talking classy. Some purple lip gloss would be nice as well.
Mate, glad I missed being a man in the eighties... I thought it
was tough being a kid in flouro wetsuits at the beach and
listening to the New Romantics era on the radio..
Jules