bayliner problem years?
mark s
considering the Bayliner Trophy series. I'll probably be in the late
1980's to early 90's year range. The Trophys seem reasonably priced
for what one gets. But I have heard that Bayliners, in general, had
problems - a tendency to 'fall apart' (hull problems) while on the
water. This boat will be for the Great Lakes and subject to severe
conditions at times.
-Is what I have heard about the Bayliners true?
-What years or models does this apply to? (all of them?)
-Has this problem been resolved @ Bayliner? (What years are 'safe'?)
Thanks for the input.
John(nospin)H
in this group. I looked at the Trophy when I bought my used Proline.
The new Trophy and the used (2 year-old) Proline were roughly the same
price. I went with the Proline, and I've never regretted it.
John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
Skipper
I have an early 90's Bayliner and can tell you firsthand that what
you've heard is mostly BS. Bayliner will generally get you into a bigger
better boat dollar for dollar than there competitors. The stories of
their hulls falling apart come mostly from folks who strut around with
their hard pounding and wet little dinkies. Harry Krause, on this forum,
comes to mind. He had a 17' Sea Pro that he was always complaining about
and decided to start bashing Bayliners. Reason? He realized that he
could have had a dry and smooth riding 25' cabin if he'd gone with
Bayliner. It chaffs his rear to this day.
Then there is the subject of resale...suggest you see what Tom Fournier,
Editor, ABOS Marine Blue Book, the most respected pricing guide, has to
say about Bayliner resale in the Google archives.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Generally, you get what you pay for. You've opened up a hornet's nest
> in this group. I looked at the Trophy when I bought my used Proline.
> The new Trophy and the used (2 year-old) Proline were roughly the same
> price. I went with the Proline, and I've never regretted it.
And those that buy Trophy say the same thing. It's human nature.
--
Skipper
Larry Weiss
could. It wasn't old, either. Bought it and sold it in 1990. The
windows leaked. Rails and hardware constantly popped out of their
installations (having been cheaply screwed to the hull with self tapping
screws). The boat was severely underpowered. The helm seat broke off.
It had wiring problems, and a poor design that created a terrible "station
wagon effect" where carbon monoxide constantly built up at the helm. All
this over the course of a couple of months. If it was just me I'd say I
had a lemon, but I hear stories like mine all the time. I wouldn't
recommend an 80's/early 90's Bayliner to anyone.
Currently, in addition to our Carver, we have a 1998 Bayliner 1950.
Quality of construction is much better. However, it is still a "cheap"
boat. We've already replaced a rotted bilged hatch and hardware still
pops out (although not as flagrantly). That being said, the boat is a lot
of fun and is safe. We enjoy it tooling around the harbor and small
lakes. Its great for skiing and tubing. However, I would never, NEVER,
ever consider using it on the great lakes.
Larry Weiss
"...Ever After!"
"a little after..."
Skipper
>> I am casually looking around for a 24-27 ft sportfishing boat and was
>> considering the Bayliner Trophy series. I'll probably be in the late
>> 1980's to early 90's year range.
> I had a 1987 Bayliner that was a horror story. The windows leaked. Rails
> and hardware constantly popped out of their installations ... I hear
> stories like mine all the time. I wouldn't recommend an 80's/early 90's
> Bayliner to anyone.
I would doubt that late 80's to early 90's *Trophies* would have the
same problems you experienced. Have you looked at Trophies from that
era?
--
Skipper
FishFan
Mark,
You'll get lots of Bayliner bashing here, some deserved, some not.
Here's my humble opinion as a former BL owner and recent mid-20's
Walkaround fishboat shopper.
The small runabout BL's appear to have the most problems, with the
cheap end cruisers being not quite as bad, but still with the share of
problems you'd expect from a low price boat. I've heard some good
things about the Trophy series though. I'm talking here about the
early 90's and later walkaround line, not the 80's pilot house style -
those are similar to the cruiser line.
One thing I'd watch out for is small motors. That's something I
noticed when shopping last year. Alot of the BL Trophy's appeared
under powered. I guess that's how they kept the price down?
The good thing about shopping for BL's is that between the bad-rep and
the mass production/low price/high volume business BL does, there's
plenty to pick from, so you can be picky on condition and tough on
price. The bad news is theat when you go to sell you'll be on the
short end of that stick.
Good Luck, and let us know what you wind up buying.
Fish Fan
John(nospin)H
>I have an early 90's Bayliner and can tell you firsthand that what
>you've heard is mostly BS. Bayliner will generally get you into a bigger
>better boat dollar for dollar than there competitors. The stories of
>their hulls falling apart come mostly from folks who strut around with
>their hard pounding and wet little dinkies. Harry Krause, on this forum,
>comes to mind. He had a 17' Sea Pro that he was always complaining about
>and decided to start bashing Bayliners. Reason? He realized that he
>could have had a dry and smooth riding 25' cabin if he'd gone with
>Bayliner. It chaffs his rear to this day.
>
>Then there is the subject of resale...suggest you see what Tom Fournier,
>Editor, ABOS Marine Blue Book, the most respected pricing guide, has to
>say about Bayliner resale in the Google archives.
Skipper, what the hell do the Harry K comments have to do with the
quality of a Bayliner? Secondly, are you being up front with this
gentleman? Since I've been in this group, I've never seen a comment
from you to the effect that you've been in the water with your
Bayliner.
Mark, for your info, Skipper uses any thread to bash Harry. From what
I've seen and heard, his early 90's Bayliner spends its days in a
driveway in Derby, Kansas.
That is not to say that Bayliners are good or bad. I would suggest you
get a qualified individual to look at the boat you are about to buy.
Then you'll know what you're getting.
Gary Martin
to 6 foot rolls are fairly common due to it being a narrow channel with tons
of big boats plowing through it at all times. The purpose of the visit was
to buy a ski boat for messing around on Kansas reservoirs. Not only did
virtually every dealer warn me away from Bayliners of that vintage, they
wouldn't even SELL ones they had to end customers. They were trying to sell
them out of region so they wouldn't have to deal with return complaints.
One dealer showed me an 82 Bayliner bowrider that stuck in my mind in
particular. It was sitting at his place waiting for a warranty claim from
Bayliner to come through on it. The hull was quite visibly cracked, along
the keel over a 5 foot length. This damage was caused by the boat slamming
down on the rough waters in the Lake of the Ozarks main channel.
As many will attest, early 80s Bayliner small runabouts had some structural
issues. Later models suposedly do not.
All things considered though, it is an entry level boat. Don't take my word
on it, go to some new boat dealers and use your own eyes. Compare a
Bayliner 20' bowrider to a Crownline 20' bowrider. They're both reasonably
priced boats, but the Crownline will blow it away. If you really want to
see quality differences, compare that same Bayliner to a Cobalt of similar
length and style. The Cobalt will cost 2 to 3 times as much and the quality
differences are pretty stark.
Gary Martin
290 Searay Sundancer
"mark s" <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b73c0a4.03060...@posting.google.com...
Gould 0738
The allegations that Bayliners in general tend to suffer hull failure and "fall
apart" on the water is poppycock.
The low end Bayliners are built down a price, rather than up to any sort of
standard. You gotta love the guy who
think's he's just cut the phat hogge buying a "brand new boat, motor, and
trailer for $9995! Yeah! It's all about volume buying and production! This
boat's so cheap because they build so many!"........yada, yada. The boat's so
cheap because they cut some corners, but for the right usage the boat will
still be adequately safe.
The entry level Bayliners (currently the Capri series) are built with
fundamental differences from the boats in their next price category (currently
the Ciera). That should tell you something.
Lots of Bayliners get sold to complete neophytes who do not properly maintain
or operate their boats. While a more rugged boat might stand up to greater
abuse, the entry level Bayliners need to be properly maintained.
The Trophy series is better than the bottom-end Bayliners. When the salmon are
running in the Pacific NW, there will be
hundreds of Bayliner Trophies on the water on a weekend morning- and while it
would be inaccurate to say the the majority of all boats fished from are
Bayliner Trophy models, the BT is probably the most individually popular model
for weekend fishermen up this way. In some other areas of the country, this
isn't the case.
I don't fish much, and would never buy a boat just for that specific purpose.
If I were going to, I'd compare carefully between makes and models but I
wouldn't rule out the Trophy just because it's built by the same company that
aslo makes the cheapest boat you can buy. (That would sort of be like writing
off everything GM or Ford ever built based on the fact the same company built
the Chevette or the Pinto), :-)
Anybody telling you there's a strong chance the hull is going to literally
disintegrate while a family is using the boat is either speaking from
ignorance, prejudice (about the same thing), or simply trying to scare you into
buying something else.
I'm surprised this thread has gone this far without somebody dredging up a link
to a family down in the SF area who had a lot of trouble with a new Trophy.
Seems the bait well pump had been misplumbed, and was somehow pumping water
*into* the boat. The family pickup up their new boat and headed for the Pacfic
Ocean with *zero* shakedown hours. So far in the story, one mistake by the
builder and another mistake by the buyer. The boat began to swamp, but the
buyers were able to make it to a dock along the shoreline and they called the
local dealer.
Informed that the boat was taking on water, some salesperson at the local
dealership told the buyers there was nothing that could be done until the
buyers got the boat back to the dealership. Bad answer. Rather than leave the
boat tied to the dock, go get the trailer, and haul the boat back in the buyers
decided to take their obviously leaking vessel back to the dealer by water!
They survived.
The event took place on a weekend. By 0900 on Monday, the family had plastered
their tale of woe all over the internet- damning Bayliner and blasting the
dealership. While the boat was a Bayliner and the dealership did not handle the
situation properly, the buyers' decisions to
head for open waters with no shakedown and to leave the relative safety of a
dock in a boat known to be leaking badly would have caused them trouble
regardless of the
brand of boat they purchased. Some would say, "Yeah, but if it wasn't a
Bayliner there would have been no problem." Think so?
Last time I looked, there was a repair shop associated with about every new
boat dealership around- regardless of brand name.
Bayliner ultimately made some arrangement to satisfy the buyers, and the
settlement must have included a "gag" agreement because this family suddenly
went from making a full time career out of badmouthing Bayliner on a long list
of internet forums to silent as could be.
Their experience with a Trophy was a problem, but it was far from typical. Bad
news travels fast. The folks who are well satisfied, (usually a vast majority)
don't spend too much time telling everybody how a product or service lived up
to expectations. The few who are unhappy are often more motivated to tell their
tale of woe.
On any used boat, please remember that you are buying a specific boat, not
stock in the company name. Have the individual boat you are considering
thoroughly examined by a knowledgable expert (a marine surveyor if one is
available).
You may find a used Trophy that's in wonderful condition, a piece of crap, or
anywhere in between......and all of those possiblities depend as much on how an
older boat has been used and maintained as on how it was originally built.
Gould 0738
>virtually every dealer warn me away from Bayliners of that vintage, they
>wouldn't even SELL ones they had to end customers. They were trying to sell
>them out of region so they wouldn't have to deal with return complaints.
LOL. So that goes on in the boat business too.
Early in my working career, I sold pianos and organs. One of our stiffest
competitors was Yamaha. The company I worked for made absolutely sure there was
a used Yamaha grand and a used Yamaha console in *every* store. They weren't
there to sell, in fact the word was "If you sell that piano, plan to follow it
out the door!" They were there to sell against.
If a customer came in and said, "I can't buy until I see Yamaha," or "I wonder
how your product stacks up to Yamaha?" we'd point out a few "advantages" in our
product's construction and then invite the prospect to play both instruments,
side by side. It was always amazing what a skillful piano tuner could do (or
not quite do) to a Yamaha. Didn't feel too badly about it, though, since the
Yamaha dealer was doing *exactly* the same thing with several competing brands
and even the most tin earred neophyte was able to distinguish vast differences
between Yamaha and the
Steinway, Kawai, or Bechstein "trade in" sitting just next to it. :-)
Always be suspicious when a dealer tells you that even though they have a
Product X in stock you aren't allowed to buy it. And then be more suspicious
when a guy says, "I won't sell it to a local, this is a true POS and I'll only
pawn it off to some rube from out of town that's less likely to come back and
raise Cain with me." (IOW,
"At XYZ Marine, we're very selective about who we screw over!")
Skipper
>> Bayliner will generally get you into a bigger better boat dollar for
>> dollar than there competitors.
> This is true
>> Then there is the subject of resale...suggest you see what Tom Fournier,
>> Editor, ABOS Marine Blue Book, the most respected pricing guide, has to
>> say about Bayliner resale in the Google archives.
> In all truth, even Fournier says that his books must be taken with a
> grain of salt.
--
Skipper
Bill Andersen
control corrected in the 80s. As for the severe conditions you might
experience, that should be considered in choosing the style and size of
boat - not the brand.
Bayliner has the market for entry level boats. People like me wouldn't have
a boat if it weren't for Bayliner. So, when I only paid $10,000 for a new
I/O powered boat and trailer in 1998, I didn't miss the couple of features
other boats offered for thousands of dollars more.
Oh, my budget boat is in year round service and hasn't needed any repairs; I
did replace a wheel bearing and running light on the trailer.
"mark s" <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b73c0a4.03060...@posting.google.com...
Skipper
> They are cheap, poorly built lake boats that allow people to buy a
> boat that really can't afford one.
A million dollar Bayliner motoryacht is neither cheap or underbuilt.
They are usually purchased by folks who can easily afford them. Today,
it's the cheap wooden boats that are often purchased by those who can
ill afford the upkeep they require.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
I'd avoid any Bayliner Trophies for the use you are considering -the
Great Lakes- with the possible exception of those made in the last two
or three years, when Bayliner upped the quality to at least low-end.
The earlier Trophies were sub-par in design, materials, construction,
tankage and usually power. In 1994, I believe, I was shopping for an
18-20' center console fishing boat and checked out the offerings at a
local Florida Bayliner dealer. I looked at a bunch of Trophies, all new.
I was astonished at how cheaply made the boats were. When I banged my
fist on the side of the boat, the hull vibrated and rattled. The
hardware was chrome-plated zinc. The deck/hull joint was not suitable
for a boat to be used in the ocean (or the Great Lakes), the wiring
harness was cheesy, the switches were cheap and proprietary, the
windshields were thin and poorly supported, there was untreated plywood
under the seat cushions, the hatches sagged when I stepped on them, and
so forth and so on.
Interestingly, the boats were about the same price as others of the same
style, but without exception all of the other brands were better built.
The Trophy line has not been particularly successful for Bayliner. In
spot markets, you may see number of them, but nationally, they are very
low in sales among boats actual sport fishermen or guides buy, ranking
close to 20th.
Your Great Lakes are serious water; if I were in your shoes, I'd shop
around for a more serious fishing boat.
--
* * *
email sent to etaoin...@hotmail.com will *never* get to me.
Harry Krause
The bigger Bayliners are of higher quality than the smaller ones, to be
sure, but that doesn't mean they are any more than "low to low average"
in design and quality.
Anyone who spends a million dollars on *any* Bayliner is insane. There
are far, far better boats available for that price.
Harry Krause
> ClassicBoat wrote:
>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/d9ps
>
>> They are cheap, poorly built lake boats that allow people to buy a
>> boat that really can't afford one.
>
> A million dollar Bayliner motoryacht is neither cheap or underbuilt.
You're not qualified to judge whether a boat is underbuilt.
Rich Stern
>standard. You gotta love the guy who
>think's he's just cut the phat hogge buying a "brand new boat, motor, and
>trailer for $9995! Yeah! It's all about volume buying and production! This
>boat's so cheap because they build so many!"........yada, yada.
I don't think it's entirely fair to discount the economies of scale argument.
There is an very important new development in production boat building: The
17' Bayliner, Maxum and Sea Ray runabouts share a lot of the of the same
components. I believe this is the boat being built in Reynosa, Mexico.
Properly trained and managed Mexican workers will produce quality products, as
properly trained and managed American workers do. But the Mexicans will do it
for a lot less money. Based on the cut-away Sea Ray 175 I saw at the last boat
show I attended, it's a decent product. The Maxum and Bayliner have fewer
frills, but it's basically the same boat. I had mentioned these three moels in
a post a few months ago. Big bang for the buck. The corner cutting my be
reduced labor cost rather than build materials. This may be a new (higher
quality) benchmark for entry level production boat-building.
-- Rich Stern
www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site
Gould 0738
>
>There is an very important new development in production boat building: The
>17' Bayliner, Maxum and Sea Ray runabouts share a lot of the of the same
>components. I believe this is the boat being built in Reynosa, Mexico.
>Properly trained and managed Mexican workers will produce quality products,
>as
>properly trained and managed American workers do. But the Mexicans will do
>it
>for a lot less money. Based on the cut-away Sea Ray 175 I saw at the last
>boat
>show I attended, it's a decent product. The Maxum and Bayliner have fewer
>frills, but it's basically the same boat. I had mentioned these three moels
>in
>a post a few months ago. Big bang for the buck. The corner cutting my be
>reduced labor cost rather than build materials. This may be a new (higher
>quality) benchmark for entry level production boat-building.
>
>
>-- Rich Stern
>www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
>www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
>www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
>www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site
Like all the other products built in factories relocated from the US, the
cheaper labor will most likely translate into greater profits between cost of
production and wholesale.
(Aside: I just picked up a fascinating book presenting an economist's theories
on the
causes of the civil war. Not far into it yet, but this author says it was a
struggle between the "American" system of the north and the "British" system of
colonial plantations in the south. The author may be trying to make a point
that our globalized economy may be driving the US back to the British system
where there is very little middle class, and a few wealthy people profit from
offshore colonial industries.)
I'm not trying to be unduly critical of the cheaper Bayliners or other
Brunswick products. Every builder has some entry level offering. Actual hull
integrity is not usually a problem with these boats, btw.
A shopper for a bottom-end Bayliner would do well to compare the differences
between the cheapest boats that builder offers and the rest of the Bayliner
line. Once a prospect has done that, understands the trade-offs involved, and
concludes that the boat is *still* adequate or better for its intended purpose
there is absolutely no reason to rule out the boat.
Rich Stern
>cheaper labor will most likely translate into greater profits between cost of
>production and wholesale.
That's a wide swath to cut, Chuck. When it comes to stereotyping, companies
are like people: On the surface, the stereotype seems to work, but when
learning more about the individual, one can be surprised.
Case in point: Brunswick's stated goal was a $10,000 boat/motor/trailer combo,
on a model that replaced a boat costing $2000 more, all in search of sales
volume and starting a brand relationship with new boaters. That's not a
short-term, max-profit strategy. It's a long term, value driven strategy. And
it was enabled by moving production.
>(Aside: I just picked up a fascinating book presenting an economist's
>theories
>on the
>causes of the civil war. Not far into it yet, but this author says it was a
>struggle between the "American" system of the north and the "British" system
>of
>colonial plantations in the south. The author may be trying to make a point
>that our globalized economy may be driving the US back to the British system
>where there is very little middle class, and a few wealthy people profit from
>offshore colonial industries.)
Don't know about that. I tend to think the "two class" status exists in the
media and in the minds of people who want to believe that depiction. I leave
my home here in suburban America, and all I see for hundreds of square miles
are middle class folks of all races, creeds and colors. Pretty much the same
thing I see when I go to any other suburban area in the U.S. If the middle
class is really dead, somebody should convince all of us that occupy it so we
can move on to something else.
>I'm not trying to be unduly critical of the cheaper Bayliners or other
>Brunswick products. Every builder has some entry level offering. Actual hull
>integrity is not usually a problem with these boats, btw.
Used as intended (protected waters), with even moderate care, these boats
should last a long time. The hardware is reasonable, the hull has blister
protection, they're using XL composites where they once used exterior grade
plywood, the wiring is less shoddy. Nobody is going to acuse the folks at U.S.
Marine of making an assualt on Lloyds standards, but things have progressed
from just ten years ago.
>A shopper for a bottom-end Bayliner would do well to compare the differences
>between the cheapest boats that builder offers and the rest of the Bayliner
>line. Once a prospect has done that, understands the trade-offs involved, and
>concludes that the boat is *still* adequate or better for its intended
>purpose
>there is absolutely no reason to rule out the boat.
Chuck, how is that gonna happen? Mr. First Time Buyer arrives in showroom, and
Mr. Undertrained Salesman puts the crosshairs on him immediately. Did Mr.
Sales Manager start the day by telling Mr. Undertrained Salesman that job #1 is
educating the customer? To quote Alec Baldwin in 'Glengarry Glen Ross'..."Get
them to sign on the line which is dotted." :)
Gould 0738
>and
>Mr. Undertrained Salesman puts the crosshairs on him immediately. Did Mr.
>Sales Manager start the day by telling Mr. Undertrained Salesman that job #1
>is
>educating the customer? To quote Alec Baldwin in 'Glengarry Glen
>Ross'..."Get
>them to sign on the line which is dotted." :)
>
>
>-- Rich Stern
>www.nitroowners.com - The Nitro and Tracker Owners Web Site
>www.mypontoon.com - The Pontoon Boat Web Site
>www.fishingreportdatabase.com - The Fishing Report Database
>www.mysporttrac.com - The Sport Trac Web Site
Mr. FTB needs to buy with his brain, not just his heart. Any one of us should
be very careful in any marketplace where we do not know the rules. Mr.
Untrained salesperson can't *force* Mr. FTB to buy anything. :-)
Marshall Banana
> mark s wrote:
>> I am casually looking around for a 24-27 ft sportfishing boat and was
>> considering the Bayliner Trophy series. I'll probably be in the late
>> 1980's to early 90's year range. The Trophys seem reasonably priced
>> for what one gets. But I have heard that Bayliners, in general, had
>> problems - a tendency to 'fall apart' (hull problems) while on the
>> water. This boat will be for the Great Lakes and subject to severe
>> conditions at times.
>> -Is what I have heard about the Bayliners true?
>> -What years or models does this apply to? (all of them?)
>> -Has this problem been resolved @ Bayliner? (What years are 'safe'?)
>> Thanks for the input.
> I have an early 90's Bayliner and can tell you firsthand that what
> you've heard is mostly BS. Bayliner will generally get you into a bigger
> better boat dollar for dollar than there competitors. The stories of
> their hulls falling apart come mostly from folks who strut around with
> their hard pounding and wet little dinkies.
If your dinkie wants something hard pounding and wet, just give Skipper's
wife a call.
Speaking of Bayliners falling apart, here are some pictures from my recent
renoavation of a 1981 18' Bayliner:
Rotten deck:
http://slacktide.org:88/~dan/pics/boat/Floor/03%20rotten%20wood.jpg
Rotten stringrs:
http://slacktide.org:88/~dan/pics/boat/Floor/05%20stringer%20split%20detail.jpg
I unfortunatly don't have any pictures of the particle board they used
for bulkeads. It was mostly mush anyway. If you'd like, I'll take
pictures of the aluminum pop-rivits they fasten the hull halves together
with. I can also provide pictures of the crappy cast zinc hardware (now
mostly repaced, but there still a a handfull of orginal zinc parts
left.) How 'bout some pictures where they installed harware with
stainless steel bolts on the outside, but carbon steel on the
inside? This inclues highly stressed items like the transom eyes and
windshield bolts.
Bottom line, Bayliner cuts corners on every single construction detail
they can get away with. It's like a Yugo, the price is attractive on the
showroom floor, but 5 years later and it's starting to fall apart.
Dan
Rich Stern
>be very careful in any marketplace where we do not know the rules. Mr.
>Untrained salesperson can't *force* Mr. FTB to buy anything. :-)
That's a valid opionion. And then there is reality: Show me where to sign and
hand over my payment book, please!
Ron M.
> I'd avoid any Bayliner Trophies for the use you are considering -the
> Great Lakes- with the possible exception of those made in the last two
> or three years, when Bayliner upped the quality to at least low-end.
>
> The earlier Trophies were sub-par in design, materials, construction,
> tankage and usually power. In 1994, I believe, I was shopping for an
> 18-20' center console fishing boat and checked out the offerings at a
> local Florida Bayliner dealer. I looked at a bunch of Trophies, all new.
> I was astonished at how cheaply made the boats were. When I banged my
> fist on the side of the boat, the hull vibrated and rattled. The
> hardware was chrome-plated zinc. The deck/hull joint was not suitable
> for a boat to be used in the ocean (or the Great Lakes), the wiring
> harness was cheesy, the switches were cheap and proprietary, the
> windshields were thin and poorly supported, there was untreated plywood
> under the seat cushions, the hatches sagged when I stepped on them, and
> so forth and so on.
Yeah, that's all typical Bayliner construction. Just cheap. Like the
bow rail on the ~25 footer docked in my local marina. Where virtually
every boat on the market has a bow rail that's welded into one piece,
the Bayliner's was made of about 50 pieces, held together with a
gazillion screws. Cripes.
BOATING magazine described Bayliner construction as "flimsy."
Saltwater Sportsman designated a Trophy they tested as "a good
entry-level boat for inshore use."
If you go down to the Texas coast, say Port Aransas, where thousands
and thousands of boats in the Trophy class (18-25 ft.) are docked, you
won't see one single Trophy.
I can vouch for Harry's hull-thump experience, too. I was looking at
a brand new 21' Trophy in a showroom a few years ago. I pressed
against the side of the hull with the tip of my forefinger, and the
outer layer of fiberglass "popped" in and out about 1/4 inch.
Incredible. Try thumping the hull of my '93 Robalo sometime. It feels
like concrete slab. Literally.
I know huge boat dealerships all up and down the Texas coast who
refuse to take Bayliners as tradeins. They don't want to deal with
the negative image of a lot full of used Bayliners, and they don't
want the hassle of pissed-off customers bringing them back 6 months
later when they start falling apart. That's what they tell me, so
don't shoot the messenger.
I mean, really, you know SOMETHING is going on here. Reputations like
that don't just appear out of thin air. It's stupid to gamble
thousands of dollars on something like this when there are so many
verifiably good-quality boats out there, especially when you say it's
going to be for "severe" Great Lakes use.
Ron M.
N.L. Eckert
I promised myself that I wouldn't get into this hassle again, but...
When I reitired in 1988, it was on disability and money was tight. I
had been out of boating for about 4 years and wanted a small boat for
trailering and room enough for short term live aboard.
After looking at a lot of boats at the shows, I narrowed down to the
Seville, Larson and Bayliner , all 21 foot midcabins. Both the
Seville and Larson used V-6 engines, the Bayliner used a 5.0 V8. The
BL was about $2000 to $4000 less than the other two. I wasn't excited
about Bayliners at the time, either, but I talked to others that had
them and didn't get a lot of negative feed back. After a lot of thought
, I decided to take a chance on the Bayliner. I have a 1988, 21 ft.
Ciera w/5.0 OMC drive. I've made a number of changes, but basically,
its pretty much the way I bought it. I have had none of the hull
problems that many people told me to expect. I use it in Lk. St. Clair
and Lk. Huron. I"ve made a number of trips up the St. Clair River and
on to Pt. Sanlac and Harbor Beach. After a while we stopped running
the lake and just trailed to the harbor of choice, gave us more time to
spend there and not worry about the weather for the return trip home.
(Also, age and infirmity are catching up with us)..
.
I have to say the boat has served me very well and will continue to do
so. If you are anywhere near Sterling Hts. area, you are welcome to
come and inspect how an '88 Bayliner will look after 14 yrs. of use. A
word of caution, BL delivered most of the '88 and '89 boats with OMC
drives. With OMCs problems, I would avoid buying a boat with that
drive line.
.
I doubt that I would buy another new BL because the dealer and
manufacture support was almost non-existent. However, you're talking
used boats, so thats a different story.
===========
Norm
Butch Ammon
Heheheee.... My sentiments exactly, Norm! Glad to see you posting on here.
(I bailed out of this NG for a while because the B.S. ratio was way out of
hand...) So, since you posted, then I will too.
I have seen the Bayliner Ciera up close and personal at Lake Anna, VA at one of
the marinas. It was about as long as my old 17' trihull I/O, but this was a
V-hull with a 90hp outboard. My first impression and upon my first glance, I
thought to myself, "Good God, someone tell me this isn't white PVC plastic!!!!"
Maybe I'm way wrong, maybe I'm a fool, but all I know is the old saying,
"first impressions are a lasting impression" is true. It just looked cheesy,
that's all.
Have I been out boating yet? ....No.
Where is my boat? ....sitting on the trailer in my side yard.
Why haven't I been out yet? ....Too busy. May was a bad month. Aside from
rain, I had to help move my 79 yr old mother from Georgia. I had to help her
pack, retrieve all my dad's old tools, go back up to Virginia to go back to
work, go back down to Georgia, go back to work.... It was absolute insanity.
FWIW, my mom is all settled in, living with my oldest sister back home in NY.
Hopefully June will be a good month and I can *FINALLY* get out in the old 17'
trihull I/O and run it around.
Butch Ammon
Gould 0738
>prove it. I was seriously considering a Trophy at the time, but
>actually touching a boat with the transom ripped open convinced me
>against owning one... at least until such time that I have been
>convinced that something significant has happened in the
I thought you had "heard about" rather than "seen" the hull breaking apart, and
that you later tracked down the boat out behind a repair shop and got some
photos.
And wasn't this boat reportedly being used as a demo platform for some new
outboards at the time? What are the chances the boat was rigged with motors
well beyond the rated capacity of the boat? Were the motors still on the boat
when you tracked it down to take the photos?
And if you didn't see the actual incident, is there any chance the boat could
have been rea ended while on the trailer? Few boats will stand up to that.
Myself, I believe 100% that you have seen a Trophy with a separated transom.
It's the how and why it separated that remains uncertain, and the assertion
that the same thing is likely to happen to anybody who buys a Trophy is, IMO, a
very looooong stretch of the imagination.
A visit to the Bayliner website links to a page with construction details on
the Trophy series. Can't speak for the older boats, but current techniques and
materials choices are competitive within class.
NOYB
Skipper
>>> Generally, you get what you pay for. You've opened up a hornet's nest
>>> in this group. I looked at the Trophy when I bought my used Proline.
>>> The new Trophy and the used (2 year-old) Proline were roughly the same
>>> price. I went with the Proline, and I've never regretted it.
>> And those that buy Trophy say the same thing. It's human nature.
> You mean, *denial*?
In your case, NOYB, I just refuse to argue with a fool.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> I have seen the Bayliner Ciera up close and personal at Lake Anna, VA at
> one of the marinas. It was about as long as my old 17' trihull I/O, but
> this was a V-hull with a 90hp outboard. My first impression and upon my
> first glance, I thought to myself, "Good God, someone tell me this isn't
> white PVC plastic!!!!" Maybe I'm way wrong, maybe I'm a fool, but all I
> know...
Are we to take from this that you assert that all Bayliners fail to
measure up to the standards set by your 17' trihull? If so, perhaps you
are the fool...
--
Skipper
Skipper
>> Bayliner will generally get you into a bigger better boat dollar for
>> dollar than there competitors.
>> Then there is the subject of resale...suggest you see what Tom Fournier,
>> Editor, ABOS Marine Blue Book, the most respected pricing guide, has to
>> say about Bayliner resale in the Google archives.
> This is a shining example of why we can't keep an expert here on this
> forum.
> Why would Tom Fournier, David Pascoe, or anybody else want to stand
> here and try to have a meaningful conversation with somebody that
> REFUSES to stay ON TOPIC.
You pays your money, you states your posit, You takes your chances that
your position will prevail. Tom did, and did well. Pascoe knows that
many of his prejudices cannot stand the light of an open discussion and
review, so he runs for cover.
> I HAVE seen a Bayliner hull break apart and I have the pictures to
> prove it.
Bullship!
--
Skipper
Skipper
> If you go down to the Texas coast, say Port Aransas, where thousands
> and thousands of boats in the Trophy class (18-25 ft.) are docked, you
> won't see one single Trophy.
I've seen quite a few Trophies on the Texas coast. I believe there are
some rather large Bayliner dealers on that coast, if memory serves. You
really should try to get out more often, Ron. You say you live in
Austin?
--
Skipper
BOB BERRY
news:b73c0a4.03060...@posting.google.com:
> I am casually looking around for a 24-27 ft sportfishing boat and
was
> considering the Bayliner Trophy series. I'll probably be in the
late
> 1980's to early 90's year range. The Trophys seem reasonably
priced
> for what one gets. But I have heard that Bayliners, in general,
had
> problems - a tendency to 'fall apart' (hull problems) while on the
> water. This boat will be for the Great Lakes and subject to severe
> conditions at times.
> -Is what I have heard about the Bayliners true?
> -What years or models does this apply to? (all of them?)
> -Has this problem been resolved @ Bayliner? (What years are
'safe'?)
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Markm...@yahoo.com
>
I HAD AN 89 TROPHY 23 WALKAROUND WITH TWIN 125HP FORCES ,GREAT BOAT
HANDLED WELL,GREAT FOR FISHING.SOME WERE SOLD WITH A SINGLE 150 HP
MOTOR,DON'T GO FOT ONE OF THEM,THE BOAT NEEDS AT LEAST 200HP
Butch Ammon
*SIGH*
I was originally replying to Norm Eckert (one of the good guys on this NG,
...FYI).
I was just trying to offer an opinion, based on what I saw. Let me simplify it
a little better: Get a flashlight and crawl under your house (you live in
Kansas, so I know you don't have a basement).... Watch out for spiders and
cobwebs. Look at your plumbing. See the two copper pipes? Follow them along
to the sink drain and then look carefully at the sink drain pipe. It's a long
section of white PVC plastic pipe! *THAT* my friend is what the Bayliner Ciera
reminded me of. ...SORRY!
How many Bayliners do you know of that are still in good running condition 28
years later? My old trusty 17' trihull is from 1975. It's a beast and handles
like a tank,but hey it's a boat and it was FREE.
Butch Ammon
Put Name Here
spent all of his time arguing BS with him. Now you suggest that Dave Pascoe
should participate in this NG so you can argue BS with him.
Do you mean to look this foolish or is it by accident?
"Skipper" <fair...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EDCCEC7...@cox.net...
Skipper
>>> I HAVE seen a Bayliner hull break apart and I have the pictures to
>>> prove it.
>> I thought you had "heard about" rather than "seen" the hull breaking
>> apart, and that you later tracked down the boat out behind a repair shop
>> and got some photos.
> I was *told* about the circumstances surrounding the breakup by...
> *I know nothing* about a demo platform for new outboards... To believe
> anything other than what I have told you would be to call a friend a
> liar.....
> *I believe* this was an early to mid 90's boat.
Another urban legend bites the dust. This is not the first time Kearns
has spread this BS breakup story to Usenet.
--
Skipper
Skipper
> Skipper wrote:
>>> I HAVE seen a Bayliner hull break apart and I have the pictures to
>>> prove it.
>> Bullship!
> I have pictures, Skipper. Facts really chap your ass, don't they?
It's liars spreading urban legends that get my attention. You are
spreading heresay, not facts.
--
Skipper
Skipper
>> Butch Ammon wrote:
>>> I have seen the Bayliner Ciera up close and personal at Lake Anna, VA at
>>> one of the marinas. It was about as long as my old 17' trihull I/O, but
>>> this was a V-hull with a 90hp outboard. My first impression and upon my
>>> first glance, I thought to myself, "Good God, someone tell me this isn't
>>> white PVC plastic!!!!" Maybe I'm way wrong, maybe I'm a fool, but all I
>>> know...
>> Are we to take from this that you assert that all Bayliners fail to
>> measure up to the standards set by your 17' trihull? If so, perhaps you
>> are the fool...
> I was just trying to offer an opinion, based on what I saw. Let me
> simplify it a little better: Get a flashlight and crawl under your house
> (you live in Kansas, so I know you don't have a basement).... Watch out
> for spiders and cobwebs. Look at your plumbing. See the two copper pipes?
> Follow them along to the sink drain and then look carefully at the sink
> drain pipe. It's a long section of white PVC plastic pipe! *THAT* my
> friend is what the Bayliner Ciera reminded me of. ...SORRY!
You've just made a bunch of incorrect assumptions, my friend.
> How many Bayliners do you know of that are still in good running condition
> 28 years later? My old trusty 17' trihull is from 1975. It's a beast and
> handles like a tank...
Here are 265 old Bayliners for starters. Take a close look and tell me
how many on this list are not better than your 17' trihull.
--
Skipper
NOYB
"John(nospin)H" <nospi...@rec.boats> wrote in message
news:1jjmdvoaojivog4mb...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 12:19:40 GMT, Skipper <fair...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> >I have an early 90's Bayliner and can tell you firsthand that what
> >you've heard is mostly BS.
Come on, Skip...finish the rest of the story with a caveat:
"As long as that boat is parked in your driveway under a tarp, and never
sees a drop of sea water, it should be fine for as long as you own it."
Skipper
> If you go down to the Texas coast, say Port Aransas, where thousands
> and thousands of boats in the Trophy class (18-25 ft.) are docked, you
> won't see one single Trophy.
Hey, Ron, if you hurry, perhaps you can trade up:
--
Skipper
Skipper
>>> I have an early 90's Bayliner and can tell you firsthand that what
>>> you've heard is mostly BS.
> Come on, Skip...finish the rest of the story with a caveat:
> "As long as that boat is parked in your driveway under a tarp, and never
> sees a drop of sea water, it should be fine for as long as you own it."
The rest of the story is that your professed reason for participation in
the NG is "giggles 'n grins", not the exchange of information. Go find
another schtick to blow.
--
Skipper
Butch Ammon
>> 28 years later? My old trusty 17' trihull is from 1975. It's a beast and
>> handles like a tank...
>
>Here are 265 old Bayliners for starters. Take a close look and tell me
>how many on this list are not better than your 17' trihull.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/ddcb
>
>--
>Skipper
>
Okay, okay.... I looked at your tinyurl link to yachtworld. That is a heck of
a 40' Bayliner Bodega from 1977. Point made. .....BUT.... Show me a vintage
Bayliner runabout I/O. My boat is made by Glastek (spinoff company of
Glastron) made in Marion, IL in the 70's. Solid fiberglass, weighs a ton, gets
bounced like hell when crossing a boat wake, but it is still rugged.
Butch Ammon
Skipper
>>>>> I HAVE seen a Bayliner hull break apart and I have the pictures to
>>>>> prove it.
>> Another urban legend bites the dust. This is not the first time Kearns
>> has spread this BS breakup story to Usenet.
> Ok, we'll let everybody draw their own conclusions:
> http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/BrokenBoat/
> click on a thumbnail for a larger picture.
Those pictures prove you saw a Bayliner hull break apart? I don't think
so. That is an extremely *damaged* starboard stern quarter. The pictures
do nothing to resolve just *how* the damage occurred or that you
witnessed the accident. That it just fell apart, based on the photos
presented, would seem to be the least likely cause. GET REAL, Eugene!
You do know what they say about it looking and feeling like bullship,
don't you?
--
Skipper
NOYB
Bayliner brand:
FACT: Bayliners are not overbuilt but are purpose built and should not be
confused with boats that offer higher quality lamination schedules, vinyls,
hardware, trim, gauges etc. at higher prices.
(ie--Parker, Boston Whaler, Grady White, etc.)
FACT: Bayliners are not the best built boats but do offer many thousands of
people the ability to afford to enjoy one of our greatest past times.
"Bayliners are not the best built boats..."
That's really all he needed to say.
"Skipper" <fair...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EDB860B...@cox.net...
> Gene Kearns wrote:
>
> >> Bayliner will generally get you into a bigger better boat dollar for
> >> dollar than there competitors.
>
> > This is true
>
> >> Then there is the subject of resale...suggest you see what Tom
Fournier,
> >> Editor, ABOS Marine Blue Book, the most respected pricing guide, has to
> >> say about Bayliner resale in the Google archives.
>
> > In all truth, even Fournier says that his books must be taken with a
> > grain of salt.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/d9ps
>
> --
> Skipper
>
Skipper
>>> How many Bayliners do you know of that are still in good running
>>> condition 28 years later? My old trusty 17' trihull is from 1975.
>>> It's a beast and handles like a tank...
>> Here are 265 old Bayliners for starters. Take a close look and tell me
>> how many on this list are not better than your 17' trihull.
> Okay, okay.... I looked at your tinyurl link to yachtworld. That is a heck
> of a 40' Bayliner Bodega from 1977. Point made. .....BUT.... Show me a
> vintage Bayliner runabout I/O. My boat is made by Glastek (spinoff company
> of Glastron) made in Marion, IL in the 70's. Solid fiberglass, weighs a
> ton, gets bounced like hell when crossing a boat wake, but it is still
> rugged.
Well, quite a few of those vintage Bayliners will slice through that
same boat wake like a hot knife through butter.
Oh yes, you asked for that vintage Bayliner runabout I/O:
--
Skipper
Skipper
>> Bayliner will generally get you into a bigger better boat dollar for
>> dollar than there competitors.
> Thanks for the link. These two paragraphs I think best summarize the
> Bayliner brand:
Why look at a summary when you get see his entire statement:
"The Bayliner bashing is a form of entertainment by a minority of
rec.boats
subscribers. There have been rebuttals by respected members of the
industry only to be flamed by people who choose to remain ignorant.
Bayliner is mentioned in this newsgroup probably 20-1 vs. other brands
so the flamers are actually indirectly promoting the product. Many
Bayliner owners have thoughtfully responded with facts regarding their
boats so people who may not have considered buying a Bayliner may
actually reconsider after having read real life testimonials.
FACT: Bayliners retain a higher percentage of their purchase price than
do
most other brands who compete in their size/price range.
FACT: Bayliner offers a high value for the money when compared to
competing brands.
FACT: Bayliner is backed by U.S. Marine, the largest and most profitable
of the over 4000 US boat manufacturers.
FACT: Bayliners are not overbuilt but are purpose built and should not
be
confused with boats that offer higher quality lamination schedules,
vinyls, hardware, trim, gauges etc. at higher prices.
FACT: Bayliners are not the best built boats but do offer many thousands
of people the ability to afford to enjoy one of our greatest past
times."
Tom Fournier
ABOS Marine Blue Book Editor
If you would like to see additional thoughts from Tom on this issue, I'd
be please to do a little research and reprise additional articles from
this industry expert.
--
Skipper
NOYB
interesting, it usually gets hijacked by off-topic posts anyhow. So why not
just participate in the off-topic posts to begin with?
BTW--if you check, you'll see that I'll *occasionally* post in the
"Can-you-help-me?" boating threads.
"Skipper" <fair...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EDCEA9C...@cox.net...
NOYB
I/O? Nah.
"Skipper" <fair...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EDCE926...@cox.net...
NOYB
your Bayliner is a better boat than Harry's Parker.
I'm saying you're wrong.
"Skipper" <fair...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EDD00C0...@cox.net...
Skipper
> I guess we're not arguing about the same thing. You're trying to say that
> your Bayliner is a better boat than Harry's Parker.
> I'm saying you're wrong.
Suppose that depends on the usage, doesn't it. Perhaps that is one
reason Krause is unable to accept The Challenge. Some might say he's a
local pond boater, unable to take on real boating adventures, because of
limitations in his equipment.
--
Skipper
John(nospin)H
live a long life. I think Mark Twain said that, but I'm not sure.
John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
PS. To whoever started this thread: "I told you you'd open a hornet's
nest!
PPS. What the hell does 'purpose built' mean? Does that mean its
purpose is to spend a lot of years in a driveway? Help, I'm new at
this.
Skipper
> Skipper wrote...
>> "Ron M." wrote:
>>> If you go down to the Texas coast, say Port Aransas, where thousands
>>> and thousands of boats in the Trophy class (18-25 ft.) are docked, you
>>> won't see one single Trophy.
>> Hey, Ron, if you hurry, perhaps you can trade up:
> That Bayliner ain't burning only 4gph at 22 knots! 6.3 mpg in a 21 foot
> I/O? Nah.
Damn, I thought Ron would be thanking me for finding that Trophy he's
been seeking on the Texas coast. Oh well!
The ad states, "Good Condition. New in 2000 Marine Power engine with
less than 100 hours. I/O overhauled this year with less than 30 hours.
Garmin 128 GPS, VHF, Fishfinder. Shore Power w/battery charger. Two
batteries. Small V berth cabin w/porta potty. Sink w/pressure water,
dinnette and 2 burner stove under hardtop. Recessed rod holders. Custom
Bimini enclosure in good shape. Electronic bottom anti-foul system. 55
Gallon Fuel. 22 Knot cruise. 4 GPH at cruise. Price includes trailer in
good condition."
I don't know anything about the Marine Power engine or its performance
specs, so cannot dispute your contention. But I do believe that's a lot
of boat for 8K. Would make a nice upgrade for Ron.
--
Skipper
Skipper
>> That Bayliner ain't burning only 4gph at 22 knots! 6.3 mpg in a 21 foot
>> I/O? Nah.
> I don't know anything about the Marine Power engine or its performance
> specs, so cannot dispute your contention. But I do believe that's a lot
> of boat for 8K. Would make a nice upgrade for Ron.
This may be the site for Marine Power engines:
http://www.marinepowerusa.com/jetpac.html
--
Skipper
Skipper
> This may be the site for Marine Power engines:
>
> http://www.marinepowerusa.com/jetpac.html
Whoops! Should be:
http://www.marinepowerusa.com/
--
Skipper
R Kelly
"mark s" <markm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b73c0a4.03060...@posting.google.com...
> I am casually looking around for a 24-27 ft sportfishing boat and was
> considering the Bayliner Trophy series. I'll probably be in the late
> 1980's to early 90's year range. The Trophys seem reasonably priced
> for what one gets. But I have heard that Bayliners, in general, had
> problems - a tendency to 'fall apart' (hull problems) while on the
> water. This boat will be for the Great Lakes and subject to severe
> conditions at times.
> -Is what I have heard about the Bayliners true?
> -What years or models does this apply to? (all of them?)
> -Has this problem been resolved @ Bayliner? (What years are 'safe'?)
> Thanks for the input.
>
> Markm...@yahoo.com
Good question. There are those that swear at Bayliner boats and those that
swear by them. I prefer other brands to Bayliner, but that's just a personal
preference. I have a great deal of friends that own Bayliners. Some have had
serious problems but some have not. Those with the most problems have the
OMC I/O configurations and they are older boats with over 300 hours.
Personally, I don't like the 'sequential lift' hull design Bayliner used in
the mid to late 1980's. It seems to list, wallow and roll a great deal. It
takes a crap-load of power to keep on plane compared to other hull designs.
It's also no secret that the fit and finish of mid 1980 to mid 1990
Bayliners was a little challenged, with more than a few owners complaining
in forums of blistering gel coat, hull delaminating, and stress cracks
developing along chines, engine mounts, windshield supports and horizontal
to the rub rails, even when the boats were relatively 'new'. But on the
other hand, my slip neighbor pounds the bejesus out of his 1989 Bayliner
Avanti, and there's not a stress crack or blister on her. He has gone
through three drives and two engines in five years, but that's an OMC issue.
So, go figure. I guess like anything else, you always hear of the 'issues'
from unhappy buyers of 'anything' and not much from those that were very
satisfied with their Bayliner. Just like the Merc Bravo III problems. You
hear a lot of vocal complainers about corrosion, but there's hundreds of
other Bravo III's sold in the years effected, where the owners have had no
issues.
Regardless of what some may say here, Bayliners do not have a 'great' resale
value. But, you'll get decent resale value in percentage to purchase price
comparison with an older Bayliner than you will the newer ones. There's a
ton of used Bayliners out there for sale, and one thing can't be disputed.
You absolutely will get 'a lot of boat for the buck' in a Bayliner for any
year, make or model.
I'd say, get a professional surveyor to look her over. If she's sound, take
her for a Sea trial. If you like here, screw anyone's opinion and buy her.
It's your boat and your money. If you're pleased, why would anyone else's
opinion matter?
BK
Skipper
>> http://www.marinepowerusa.com/
> Nice thread. Has it ever occurred to you that you are just talking to
> yourself?
Not according to my email. How about yours?
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
> Myself, I believe 100% that you have seen a Trophy with a separated transom.
> It's the how and why it separated that remains uncertain, and the assertion
> that the same thing is likely to happen to anybody who buys a Trophy is, IMO, a
> very looooong stretch of the imagination.
>
> A visit to the Bayliner website links to a page with construction details on
> the Trophy series. Can't speak for the older boats, but current techniques and
> materials choices are competitive within class.
I visited the Bayliner Trophy webpage to take a look at the spec's on
its 25-foot outboard cabin model with an engine bracket. First thing I
noticed, the bracket looked the same as the crummy Trophy-built brackets
I disliked on those boats five or six years ago. It looks like Bayliner,
instead of buying an engineered and proven bracket from someone like
Stainless or Armstrong, makes its brackets out of foam and fiberglass.
Then I noted that the max horsepower Bayliner will sell for the model is
300, while the corresponding max horsepower on the corresponding Parker
deep-vee 25' walkaround is 500. *That* tells you something right there.
Parker uses Stainless and Armstrong brackets.
That's *one* construction detail that's significant. There are many others.
The Bayliners in the sizes under discussion are built cheap. Caveat
emptor.
--
* * *
email sent to etaoin...@hotmail.com will *never* get to me.
Harry Krause
> NOYB wrote:
>
>>>> Generally, you get what you pay for. You've opened up a hornet's nest
>>>> in this group. I looked at the Trophy when I bought my used Proline.
>>>> The new Trophy and the used (2 year-old) Proline were roughly the same
>>>> price. I went with the Proline, and I've never regretted it.
>
>>> And those that buy Trophy say the same thing. It's human nature.
>
>> You mean, *denial*?
>
> In your case, NOYB, I just refuse to argue with a fool.
>
> --
> Skipper
Disagree a lot with yourself, eh, Snippy?
Harry Krause
> Gene Kearns wrote:
>
>>> Bayliner will generally get you into a bigger better boat dollar for
>>> dollar than there competitors.
>
>>> Then there is the subject of resale...suggest you see what Tom Fournier,
>>> Editor, ABOS Marine Blue Book, the most respected pricing guide, has to
>>> say about Bayliner resale in the Google archives.
>
>> This is a shining example of why we can't keep an expert here on this
>> forum.
>
>> Why would Tom Fournier, David Pascoe, or anybody else want to stand
>> here and try to have a meaningful conversation with somebody that
>> REFUSES to stay ON TOPIC.
>
> You pays your money, you states your posit, You takes your chances that
> your position will prevail. Tom did, and did well. Pascoe knows that
> many of his prejudices cannot stand the light of an open discussion and
> review, so he runs for cover.
Give it up, idiot. You haven't a clue about Pascoe's thoughts on this or
any other subject, unless he's posted them and you've read them.
>
>> I HAVE seen a Bayliner hull break apart and I have the pictures to
>> prove it.
>
> Bullship!
>
> --
> Skipper
I've seen busted up Bayliners and in fact had some pictures posted of
them years ago. It's a common enough sight.
Harry Krause
I've seen those photos. So have others.
Harry Krause
None of the women who have been in my life have ever complained about
limitations in my equipment.
To Skipper, a boating adventure isn't real unless it includes towing a
trailer 1500 miles to the water. To me, towing a trailer isn't boating,
it's trailering.
But, then, Skipper is a delusional ass.
Harry Krause
You send yourself email, too?
NOYB
hundred feet to the ramp at his marina?news:3EDD17D2...@cox.net...
> NOYB wrote:
>
> > I guess we're not arguing about the same thing. You're trying to say
that
> > your Bayliner is a better boat than Harry's Parker.
>
> > I'm saying you're wrong.
>
> Suppose that depends on the usage, doesn't it.
Yes. If you *use* the boat on the water, then the Parker is the better
boat. If it sits in your driveway, then the Bayliner makes more sense
'cause it costs less up front.
>Perhaps that is one
> reason Krause is unable to accept The Challenge.
Or perhaps it's because no sane person in their right mind would tow a boat
2000 miles when they can tow it only a couple of hundred feet across the
marina parking lot by their house.
>Some might say he's a
> local pond boater, unable to take on real boating adventures, because of
> limitations in his equipment.
Some might say that. Some might be idiots too. Which "some" are you?
Harry Krause
> Why would he drive 2000 miles towing a 7000 lb boat when he can drive a few
> hundred feet to the ramp at his marina?
> "Skipper" <fair...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:3EDD17D2...@cox.net...
>> NOYB wrote:
>>
>> > I guess we're not arguing about the same thing. You're trying to say
> that
>> > your Bayliner is a better boat than Harry's Parker.
>>
>> > I'm saying you're wrong.
>>
>> Suppose that depends on the usage, doesn't it.
That's the part Skipper apparently cannot comprehend. Our Parker sits on
its trailer literally within sight of the boat ramp we use. It might be
300 feet from the storage lot to the ramp. Never measured it.
Further, the boating choices around here, though not as much to my
liking as Florida's waters, are plentiful. We've got the Bay, we've got
some really interesting rivers connected to it, we've got some wonderful
rivers with "history" all over the place, and, four hours away by boat,
we've got the Atlantic Ocean.
No one with these opportunities literally in his back yard is going to
tow 9000 pounds of boat and trailer 2000 miles to splash it in the Gulf
of California. Cripes, it would take two days of driving straight
through to even reach that pond. And what for? If I were interested in a
long-distance "tow job," I'd tow the Parker down to Florida. It's only
about 800 miles to my favorite launch ramp in St. Augustine. But I won't
even do that. I'll tow that boat an hour or two to reach some
interesting venue that might take many hours on the boat's bottom;
that's about it.
>
> Yes. If you *use* the boat on the water, then the Parker is the better
> boat. If it sits in your driveway, then the Bayliner makes more sense
> 'cause it costs less up front.
>
>
>>Perhaps that is one
>> reason Krause is unable to accept The Challenge.
>
> Or perhaps it's because no sane person in their right mind would tow a boat
> 2000 miles when they can tow it only a couple of hundred feet across the
> marina parking lot by their house.
I'd love to watch "Cap'n" Skipper run a few of our Atlantic Ocean inlets
in that Bayliner. As previously stated, he'd have a new nickname...Cap'n
Brownstained Shorts.
>
>
>>Some might say he's a
>> local pond boater, unable to take on real boating adventures, because of
>> limitations in his equipment.
>
> Some might say that. Some might be idiots too. Which "some" are you?
>
>
>
NOYB
Sunbrella and stainless bimini's
Vinylester resins
1" bow rails and stanchions
Bronz through-hulls and seacocks
Through-bolted windshield stanchions
"FishFan" <slug...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:fab83992.0306...@posting.google.com...
> markm...@yahoo.com (mark s) wrote in message
news:<b73c0a4.03060...@posting.google.com>...
> > I am casually looking around for a 24-27 ft sportfishing boat and was
> > considering the Bayliner Trophy series. I'll probably be in the late
> > 1980's to early 90's year range. The Trophys seem reasonably priced
> > for what one gets. But I have heard that Bayliners, in general, had
> > problems - a tendency to 'fall apart' (hull problems) while on the
> > water. This boat will be for the Great Lakes and subject to severe
> > conditions at times.
> > -Is what I have heard about the Bayliners true?
> > -What years or models does this apply to? (all of them?)
> > -Has this problem been resolved @ Bayliner? (What years are 'safe'?)
> > Thanks for the input.
> >
> > Markm...@yahoo.com
>
> Mark,
>
> You'll get lots of Bayliner bashing here, some deserved, some not.
> Here's my humble opinion as a former BL owner and recent mid-20's
> Walkaround fishboat shopper.
>
> The small runabout BL's appear to have the most problems, with the
> cheap end cruisers being not quite as bad, but still with the share of
> problems you'd expect from a low price boat. I've heard some good
> things about the Trophy series though. I'm talking here about the
> early 90's and later walkaround line, not the 80's pilot house style -
> those are similar to the cruiser line.
>
> One thing I'd watch out for is small motors. That's something I
> noticed when shopping last year. Alot of the BL Trophy's appeared
> under powered. I guess that's how they kept the price down?
>
> The good thing about shopping for BL's is that between the bad-rep and
> the mass production/low price/high volume business BL does, there's
> plenty to pick from, so you can be picky on condition and tough on
> price. The bad news is theat when you go to sell you'll be on the
> short end of that stick.
>
> Good Luck, and let us know what you wind up buying.
>
> Fish Fan
>
NOYB
"ClassicBoat" <Class...@NoISP.Net> wrote in message
news:o9bqdvc2o4o7urdv8...@4ax.com...
> yourself?
LOL. Thanks for pointing that out...it really put a smile on my face. ;)
RGrew176
>Yeah, that's all typical Bayliner construction. Just cheap. Like the
>bow rail on the ~25 footer docked in my local marina. Where virtually
>every boat on the market has a bow rail that's welded into one piece,
>the Bayliner's was made of about 50 pieces, held together with a
>gazillion screws. Cripes.
Hey Ron, you have stated here many, many times that you have never seen any
Bayliners in the Gulf even though there is a large Bayliner dealer nearby.
Wonder where the truth falls here. Either you have not ever seen any Bayliners
or now as you state you have.
Hmmmmmmmmmm.
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
Harry Krause
I believe Ron has stated he has never seen any Bayliner Trophies in the
Gulf.
In the years I lived in Florida and fished offshore, I saw one or two
Bayliner Trophies out where we fished, out of sight of land. Plenty of
every other competing brand, but hardly any Bayliner Trophies.
RGrew176
>How many Bayliners do you know of that are still in good running condition 28
>years later? My old trusty 17' trihull is from 1975. It's a beast and
>handles
>like a tank,but hey it's a boat and it was FREE.
I know of a few around here on Lake Erie.
People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want
you to share yours with them.
RGrew176
>Regardless of what some may say here, Bayliners do not have a 'great' resale
>value. But, you'll get decent resale value in percentage to purchase price
>comparison with an older Bayliner than you will the newer ones.
You know this from personal experience. My personal experiences deem
otherwise. Bayliners do quite well when it comes to resale.
You should not confuse your career with your life.
NOYB
and have a head-to-head with Gene Kearns' 23' Grady? I think they're about
the same year and almost the same length.
"ClassicBoat" <Class...@NoISP.Net> wrote in message
news:aeeqdvcf3hapk0s1o...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 20:08:35 -0400, Harry Krause
> <etaoin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >That's the part Skipper apparently cannot comprehend. Our Parker sits on
> >its trailer literally within sight of the boat ramp we use. It might be
> >300 feet from the storage lot to the ramp. Never measured it.
> >
>
> >No one with these opportunities literally in his back yard is going to
> >tow 9000 pounds of boat and trailer 2000 miles to splash it in the Gulf
> >of California. Cripes, it would take two days of driving straight
> >through to even reach that pond. And what for? If I were interested in a
> >long-distance "tow job," I'd tow the Parker down to Florida. It's only
> >about 800 miles to my favorite launch ramp in St. Augustine. But I won't
> >even do that. I'll tow that boat an hour or two to reach some
> >interesting venue that might take many hours on the boat's bottom;
> >that's about it.
> >
>
> I just dawned on me that Skipper, sitting in Kansas, is as close to
> the South Carolina-Georgia coastal border as he is to the Gulf of
> California What a trek. No wonder he never boats. I wouldn't
> either.
>
Skipper
> Personally, I don't like the 'sequential lift' hull design Bayliner used
> in the mid to late 1980's. It seems to list, wallow and roll a great deal.
What a load of crap! Bayliner uses the sequential lift hull form to this
day and it does not list, wallow and roll. Roll is dampened with the
reverse hard chines. You simply don't know what your talking about. Do
you sell boats for a competitor?
> Regardless of what some may say here, Bayliners do not have a 'great'
> resale value.
I've received two offers today for more than my asking price and within
$4000 of the amount we paid new 12 years ago. Deciding tonight which to
accept or whether to turn them both down. Resale is a plus for a well
cared for Bayliner.
--
Skipper
NOYB
"NOYB" <NO...@NOYB.com> wrote in message
news:WEbDa.61357$Gg7.2...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> Good point. In fact, why doesn't Skipper tow his Bayliner to Southport,
NC
> and have a head-to-head with Gene Kearns' 23' Grady? I think they're
about
> the same year and almost the same length.
...er...that's their *boats* I'm talking about.
NOYB
Coral, and Fort Myers.. Lots of Parkers, Grady's, Pursuits, Whalers,
Anglers, Hydrasports, Pro Lines, Contenders, Pathfinders, World Cats, and
Mako's...but not a lot of Bayliners.
"Harry Krause" <etaoin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:joqdnTl8D6t...@comcast.com...
Gfretwell
>Coral, and Fort Myers.. Lots of Parkers, Grady's, Pursuits, Whalers,
>Anglers, Hydrasports, Pro Lines, Contenders, Pathfinders, World Cats, and
>Mako's...but not a lot of Bayliners.
I saw a 16 footer in the surf off of the Lani Kai a while ago. The "cap'n" was
so bad he couldn't get it off the beach, in spite of a bunch of people trying
to help him. When I suggested that he just walk his anchor out 50' or so (still
only about 4' of water but past the bar ) and kedge off he showed me his 15'
clothes line anchor rode. (How he got in this trouble in the first place) The
boat broached several times and filled with water, got bailed out and turned
back into the waves but he couldn't seem to get it off. Finally he killed the
battery. I left after watching some people get hurt. It was too painful to
watch.
The other one I saw was one of those catamarans. It ran aground on the sand bar
between the Estero River channel (north of Estero #3) and the channel to
Mullock creek TWICE in 15 minutes. The second time I pulled him off, I towed
him to #4a and sent him on his way. It seemed like the only way to get him
past the bar.
They do seem to be "starter boats" and people either buy something else or give
up boating.
NOYB
"Gfretwell" <gfre...@aol.comGreg> wrote in message
news:20030603215236...@mb-m20.aol.com...
> They do seem to be "starter boats" and people either buy something else or
give
> up boating.
LOL. Great description.
Wayne B
>I haven't seen many Bayliners down here in Naples, Sanibel, Marco, Cape
>Coral, and Fort Myers.. Lots of Parkers, Grady's, Pursuits, Whalers,
>Anglers, Hydrasports, Pro Lines, Contenders, Pathfinders, World Cats, and
>Mako's...but not a lot of Bayliners.
Just bought a house in Cape Coral and can assure you there will be no
Bayliner in front of it. I have seen some in the area and suppose
they'd be OK for the river and back bays. The story about the Lani
Kai is kind of funny. We stayed there for a few days back in spring
break season and that was about the only form of entertainment we
didn't see.
Gould 0738
>$4000 of the amount we paid new 12 years ago. Deciding tonight which to
>accept or whether to turn them both down. Resale is a plus for a well
>cared for Bayliner.
>
>--
>Skipper
What????!!!
How the hello do you guys do business back in corn country, Skipper?
I don't know what's more incredible....the report of two guys trying to outbid
one another *above* your advertised price or your indecision about whether to
sell for more than you were asking. :-)
Mark Browne
"Gould 0738" <goul...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030604001146...@mb-m13.aol.com...
It's not the money - it's an emotional thing. At his greatly advanced age,
he is getting to the point where he is worried about being reduced to
reminiscing about fleeting moments of adventure. While he has the boat he
*might* go boating again.
But there is more - if he sells the bayliner then he looses any actual
connection whatsoever with boating. Considering that this group is probably
the only outside activity left in his life - the boat sitting in the
driveway is worth more that meets the eye. In his mind the boat is the price
of admission to play with his remaining friends.
On the other hand, the aging process may be further along then we suspected,
he may be just experiencing delusional wish fulfillment where he is imagines
that someone actual wants his boat.
Mark Browne
P.S. Don't worry about this message hurting his feelings - Skippy said he
*plonked* me.
Skipper
>> I've received two offers today for more than my asking price and within
>> $4000 of the amount we paid new 12 years ago. Deciding tonight which to
>> accept or whether to turn them both down. Resale is a plus for a well
>> cared for Bayliner.
> What????!!!
> How the hello do you guys do business back in corn country, Skipper?
> I don't know what's more incredible....the report of two guys trying to
> outbid one another *above* your advertised price or your indecision about
> whether to sell for more than you were asking. :-)
We like the boat and it will still be a while before our move to the
coast. The Admiral stated her position tonight was not to sell but that
I would have to make the decision. One of the buyers is a lawyer from
Tulsa offering cash and the other fellow is local and going to his
banker in the morning. I've had four emails from the lawyer this
evening. What to do, what to do, those Bayliners are so hot and the
little auction has been interesting!
As to the indecision, new 2252s now sell for $34,000 and this one is far
better equipped, one owner, stored inside since new, mechanically
perfect and in like new condition with untorn and unfaded vinyl. The
boat measures 27' overall.
--
Skipper
Gould 0738
Right now you should be singing along with that old rock standard, "Go on, take
the money and run!"
Skipper
Appreciate the advice. Right now I'm just sitting in the office trying
to decide. Whoever said this is the happiest day for a boater must not
have been selling a Bayliner.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
> I've received two offers today for more than my asking price and within
> $4000 of the amount we paid new 12 years ago. Deciding tonight which to
> accept or whether to turn them both down. Resale is a plus for a well
> cared for Bayliner.
>
> --
> Skipper
The wind blew, the sh*t flew, and in walked Skipper.
Gee, we had no idea your half-day cruiser was even up for sale.
So, are you moving on up to a real boat? For the Derby, Kansas, area, I
suggest a nice 19' Carolina Skiff with a 75-90 hp outboard. Perfect for
those big waters around you and for fishing those nice Kansas lakes.
Harry Krause
> We like the boat and it will still be a while before our move to the
> coast.
The only way you've be moving to the Left Coast is in an urn.
The Admiral stated her position tonight was not to sell but that
> I would have to make the decision. One of the buyers is a lawyer from
> Tulsa offering cash and the other fellow is local and going to his
> banker in the morning. I've had four emails from the lawyer this
> evening. What to do, what to do, those Bayliners are so hot and the
> little auction has been interesting!
The local fellow needs to finance $400?
>
> As to the indecision, new 2252s now sell for $34,000 and this one is far
> better equipped, one owner, stored inside since new, mechanically
> perfect and in like new condition with untorn and unfaded vinyl. The
> boat measures 27' overall.
It's a 22' boat, Skipper. No one wants to ride on the outdrive.
Ron M.
> NOYB wrote:
>
> > Skipper wrote...
>
> >> "Ron M." wrote:
>
> >>> If you go down to the Texas coast, say Port Aransas, where thousands
> >>> and thousands of boats in the Trophy class (18-25 ft.) are docked, you
> >>> won't see one single Trophy.
It'd hardly make an upgrade, Skippy. 55 gallon tank? Even my 18'
Robalo has a 60 gallon tank, and a 25 gallon oval above-deck live
well, among other things. Plus, it'll handle seas that would flip
that Trophy like a dice in a cup.
Ron M.
Ron M.
> >From: rmor...@austin.rr.com (Ron M.)
>
> >Yeah, that's all typical Bayliner construction. Just cheap. Like the
> >bow rail on the ~25 footer docked in my local marina. Where virtually
> >every boat on the market has a bow rail that's welded into one piece,
> >the Bayliner's was made of about 50 pieces, held together with a
> >gazillion screws. Cripes.
>
> Hey Ron, you have stated here many, many times that you have never seen any
> Bayliners in the Gulf even though there is a large Bayliner dealer nearby.
> Wonder where the truth falls here. Either you have not ever seen any Bayliners
> or now as you state you have.
No, I haven't. I've been around the central Texas gulf (usually the
Port Aransas area) many, many times. Last time was about a month ago,
in fact, for 5 days. Most of the time this part of the Gulf is
overrun with Trophy-class boats (cuddies and center consoles in the
18' - 25' range), thousands of them.
Sometimes I'll spend the day just relaxing on the hotel balcony or
fishing on the jetties, watching all the boats go in and out of the
harbor. Makos, ProLines, Aquasports, Hydrasports, Lagunas, Quest,
Robalo, Wellcraft, you name it. And during the entire time, not see
ONE SINGLE Trophy. Not one. I think the last time I saw one down
there was about 6 years ago. And as you said, there are numerous big
Bayliner dealers down there, so it's not because they're unavailable.
Go figure.
Ron M.
Lloyd Sumpter
> Skipper wrote:
>>
>> As to the indecision, new 2252s now sell for $34,000 and this one is far
>> better equipped, one owner, stored inside since new, mechanically
>> perfect and in like new condition with untorn and unfaded vinyl. The
>> boat measures 27' overall.
>
> It's a 22' boat, Skipper. No one wants to ride on the outdrive.
Well, it must be in "as-new" condition: it's never been used! :)
Lloyd Sumpter
"Far Cove" Catalina 36 - very well-used!
NOYB
"Gene Kearns" <ewke...@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:d2nqdvggs5fhh5675...@4ax.com...
> handle the Atlantic waves? I doubt it. It would be interesting to see
> the look on your face negotiating some of our narrow inlets in that
> underpowered scow of yours.
>
> Are you up to the challenge?
Silence from Kansas...
Skipper
>>>> Hey, Ron, if you hurry, perhaps you can trade up:
>>> Damn, I thought Ron would be thanking me for finding that Trophy he's
>>> been seeking on the Texas coast. Oh well!
>> The ad states, "Good Condition. New in 2000 Marine Power engine with
>> less than 100 hours. I/O overhauled this year with less than 30 hours.
>> Garmin 128 GPS, VHF, Fishfinder. Shore Power w/battery charger. Two
>> batteries. Small V berth cabin w/porta potty. Sink w/pressure water,
>> dinnette and 2 burner stove under hardtop. Recessed rod holders. Custom
>> Bimini enclosure in good shape. Electronic bottom anti-foul system. 55
>> Gallon Fuel. 22 Knot cruise. 4 GPH at cruise. Price includes trailer in
>> good condition."
>> I don't know anything about the Marine Power engine or its performance
>> specs, so cannot dispute your contention. But I do believe that's a lot
>> of boat for 8K. Would make a nice upgrade for Ron.
> It'd hardly make an upgrade, Skippy. 55 gallon tank? Even my 18'
> Robalo has a 60 gallon tank, and a 25 gallon oval above-deck live
> well, among other things. Plus, it'll handle seas that would flip
> that Trophy like a dice in a cup.
100 hours on that fuel efficient engine and 30 hours on the leg and you
say it's not an upgrade from your 1975? How about that list of options
and the cabin? Does your tub have those amenities? As for the Trophy not
being able to handle the chop, well...I doubt you've ever driven a
Trophy.
BTW, with all your years of trudging up and down that dreary Texas coast
on foot looking for that dream Trophy, I'd expect at least a peck on the
cheek for solving your problem. What, no kiss?
--
Skipper
NOYB
"Wayne B" <WayneBatR...@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:3dmqdv86diuq60f8h...@4ax.com...
My first time visiting the Lani Kai, we were drinking in the bar before
walking down the beach a little ways. It was night time, but the full moon
exposed a couple of other "full moons" humping away on one of the balconies.
Interestingly enough, the next day we read about a woman falling (or getting
tossed) from one of the balconies. It's an interesting place...
NOYB
> Skipper wrote:
>
> > ClassicBoat wrote:
> >
> >>> http://www.marinepowerusa.com/
> >
> >> Nice thread. Has it ever occurred to you that you are just talking to
> >> yourself?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Skipper
>
>
> You send yourself email, too?
...via Iceland...
NOYB
>this one is far
> better equipped, one owner, stored inside since new, mechanically
> perfect and in like new condition with untorn and unfaded vinyl.
Of course it is. It's sitting a thousand miles away from the nearest
coastline.
JIMinMA©
Jim
<Some dialogue between Skip and Ron snipped>
"Skipper" <fair...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3EDE0094...@cox.net...
basskisser
> As to the indecision, new 2252s now sell for $34,000 and this one is far
> better equipped, one owner, stored inside since new, mechanically
> perfect and in like new condition with untorn and unfaded vinyl. The
> boat measures 27' overall.
Stored inside since new? I KNEW you didn't do any boating. That thing
has been in a hay barn in Kansas, as opposed to USING it.
Mechanically perfect? Again, to be mechanically perfect, would mean
that the mechanics have never been used.
Skipper
>> So, are you moving on up to a real boat? For the Derby, Kansas, area, I
>> suggest a nice 19' Carolina Skiff with a 75-90 hp outboard. Perfect for
>> those big waters around you and for fishing those nice Kansas lakes.
> Be fair, Harry, and post the down side. The Carolina Skiff does not
> come with a trailer and therefore the trailer's length may NOT be used
> in calculating "overall" boat length. You'll have to excuse Skipper
> on this point, though, the regional calculations have always been done
> on the local Prairie Schooners (boats), which not only included the
> "hull", but also the team of horses (outdrive and trailer tongue).
> The term "LWL" was developed to account for just such eventualities.
> Sorta separates the waterborne from the not.
> Reading between the lines, though, any sale of the Bayliner and move
> to "the coast" won't change things much. Seems that I recall the
> great failed boat buying trip of years past were held in the
> Washington State area. That still leaves a 1200+ mile trailer trek to
> the Sea of Cortez. Now a new Trophy with trailer only costs.....
Reading your post, it occured to me that you had earned your way into my
Bozobin and that I had allowed you to weasel out. At first, I couldn't
remember why I'd let that happen. Then I remembered that I'd seen a
couple of your posts referenced by others and that your comments
contained some very misleading and dangerous misinformation. Your
comments were so illinformed that I thought I'd let you out and comment
on your laughable positions. I noticed with amusement that your reply to
my rebuttal was embarrassed silence. It was great fun and did a service
for the group. I continue to await your next piece of on-topic nautical
wisdom with eager anticipation.
--
Skipper
Harry Krause
Every so often someone, sometimes me, asks Skipper how many hours he has
on the engine on that Bayliner. I don't recall he has ever responded
properly. My guess is that his 12-13 year-old boat has maybe 200-250
hours on the engine, about a season's use for a serious Florida fisherman.
Harry Krause
No doubt...
Harry Krause
The only way a boat like that could be in "like new" condition is if it
had never been used. I've sold off three Sea Pros in recent years that
in my opinion were in terrific condition, and equipped better than new,
but they all had some wear on them. Careful wear.
Harry Krause
One wonders if Skipper realizes that his posts make him look a complete,
total fool.
John(nospin)H
ready to sell it off, I might be interested!
John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD