Bayliner: Bad wrap or bad boats?
RobertDrew
give alot of boat for your buck, but they carry the worst reputation in
the midwest. Can someone tell why and have they improved in recent years?
Thanks in advance for any insight you may have.
R. Drew
Chip Allen
- Chip
email Ch...@bangate.compaq.com | "In Houston, an air conditioner in your
| car is considered such a necessity that
Not necessarily my employer's | people who don't have one drive around
views. Maybe not even my own. | with the windows up so no one will know."
| --- Garrison Keillor
holstrom @pp.kolumbus.fi Holmström Klaus
open boat and great for good weather, the only thing we have against it,
is the openess in our nothern waters in Finland. We have had no problems
at all to speak of at all, and we have taken some rough seas going from
Helsinki to Estonia. Good value for money, we would recommend one.
GOOD SAILING !
Ritva and Klaus Holmström
klaus. holstrom @pp.kolumbus.fi
Chip Allen
I've had a Bayliner 19 foot for about three months - bought it secondhand from
my sister. I've had to replace the horn, and the bilge pump needs replacing
(my next project). However, I think that those items are both installed by
the dealer, not by Bayliner. As for the boat itself - I'm happy with it. Of
course I'd like it to have more power, but I think that would be true of any
boat I owned (my neighbor just bought a Four Winns 240 with an 8-cylinder 451
engine, and he doesn't have enough power either!). It planes quickly and
easily, the hull seems solid (although I did notice one fiberglass patch in
the bilge that seems to be from the factory), and it cuts waves nicely. So,
I'm happy with it so far. I'm interested in other opinions...
Chip Allen
Chip Allen
Mark J. Scango
> I'm looking for a new 20' to 24' boat and find that Bayliner seems to
> give alot of boat for your buck, but they carry the worst reputation in
> the midwest. Can someone tell why and have they improved in recent years?
>
> Thanks in advance for any insight you may have.
>
> R. Drew
>
---------
I own a '93 Bayliner Classic 2252 bought new and it has been a very
reliable boat. If Bayliner made cars, I would own one. The boat has been
used for fishing, weekending, and extended cruising, (we make do) and has
never let us down. If I had it to do over I would have bought the Classic
2452 for the additional room and features.
Bayliner got a bad name before Brunswick bought them. Since then, they
have become a very solid unit, not fancy, but solid.
Mercruiser is Mercruiser. It doesn't matter what unit you put it in. They
are solid performers, too.
--
Mark J. Scango mark...@mail.microserve.net
mark...@proshop.microserve.com
"With free advice, you get what you pay for"
holstrom @pp.kolumbus.fi Holmström Klaus
cdow...@siu.edu
Bryant Boats ( headquartered in Sweetwater, Tenn. ) They have been making boats for
a long time and are really good people to do business with. I personally know the
owner of the company and he is great to work with. If you would like the name of one
of their top dealers and can help you get connected to them.
Cathie cdow...@siu.edu
Tim Stanley
years and never had any problem with it. It always started,
nothing fell off or broke in half. :) It wasn't real fancy or
anything but for an entry level boat that was less than $7500 new
it wasn't to bad.
( Looking back fondly... really had a lot of good times on it )
Tim
Rod Mc Innis
: I'm looking for a new 20' to 24' boat and find that Bayliner seems to
: give alot of boat for your buck, but they carry the worst reputation in
: the midwest. Can someone tell why and have they improved in recent years?
: Thanks in advance for any insight you may have.
: R. Drew
:
I think that it is more of a bad rap than anything else.
Being a low cost boat, Bayliners allow a lot of people to own more
boat than they would otherwise have been able. They tend to be
underpowered (a major cost savings) and set up for what people *think*
they want. This tends to set a lot of people up for dissappointment.
For boats under 20' long, I think Bayliners are just fine. Don't
let the salesman talk you into a too small a motor, otherwise you may
find it not peppy enough for your needs.
Bayliner also makes some *real* nice large boats. There is a 45'
pilot house model that I would just die for. When they get over 30
feet or so, they stop trying to make them go fast boats and settle on
making them comfy.
It is the boats between 20 and 30' that seem to cause most of the
problems. They try to make boats that will sleep 6, load on a
trailer, pull water skiers and cost as little as possible. They make
compromises that make them do poorly at all of them.
The layouts that look really spiffy when you imagin yourself zipping
along at 25 knots turn out to be a real drag when you are sitting at
anchor. Since you will spend a lot more time sitting than zipping,
this should be of concern.
That "sequential lift" hull that gets it up on the plane causes the
slight chop to slap against the hull. When you are lying in the
V-berth (excuse me: as you are curled up in the slightly too small
v-berth) at night, the SLAP.....SLAP.....SLAP will drive you NUTS!
The light weight (to keep it trailerable) makes it handle poorly in
heavy chop. To get more cabin room, they cram the engine into as
small a space as possible, making service a bitch. The
alcohol/electric stoves they tend to put in are a real joke (there
are some good alcohol stoves, but they are not the ones you find on
low end boats).
You didn't mention what type of boat you were looking for. If you
are looking for a simple large runabout, then you will probably be OK.
There are some cuddy cabin boats that look like they would be pretty
good for a days fishing. But if you are looking for a small cruiser,
you will probably be dissappointed.
However, I think that you will be dissappointed regardless of the
name on the side.
Rod McInnis
Bryan Pfaffenberger
severely decrease the resale value--and that's something to consider if
you think you might get a bigger or smaller boat sometime soon.
Something like this has happened, I believe, with Hunter sailboats,
which developed a poor reputation for some reason (even though, by all
accounts, the recent ones are solid boats). I learned this the hard way
by buying a Ford Taurus station wagon in 1992--we tried to sell it this
fall, with only 36,000 miles on it, and found that we would have to go
several thousand dollars under the blue book if we really wanted to sell
it. We decided to keep it and run it to death (hauling stuff down to our
boat, naturally).
Bryan
Phil Haseltine
about 45mph.
I'm on my way to the Atlanta boat show right now. My buddy want to
buy mine... looks like I ckeck out another boat.... jezzzz...
Phil
Patrick O'Neill
> You didn't mention what type of boat you were looking for. If you
> are looking for a simple large runabout, then you will probably be OK.
> There are some cuddy cabin boats that look like they would be pretty
> good for a days fishing. But if you are looking for a small cruiser,
> you will probably be dissappointed.
Hmm. Rod, I think I'll have to disagree with you on this one! We
currently own a Ciera 2355, and are VERY happy with it. The V-berth is
more than adequate for me (6'1") and my wife, and the mid-cabin holds both
of my kids with room to spare. We have had it in some very heavy chop
(that's all you get on Lake Washington!), as well as some heavy Puget
Sound waves, and it has handled very nicely - much better than our other
boats.
One of the things that actually sold me on this model is the space in the
engine compartment! It's HUGE! It came with a water tank and a waste
tank. I have also installed a second battery, a pressure water pump, and
a hot water heater, and I STILL have room to get down and service it.
I do have to agree with you, though, on underpowering. Our boat's only
engine option was a Mercruiser 5.0L or LX, which I think is underpowering
the boat. There should have at least been an option for the Merc 5.7. It
hasn't been a major problem, though, and it hasn't detracted at all from
our enjoyment of the boat.
Patrick O'Neill
ozo...@wolfenet.com
******************************************************************
"One night I saw a werewolf drinking a Pina Colada at Trader Vic's.
And his hair was PERFECT."
Warren Zevon
******************************************************************
ddave
the buyers seem pretty happy. The only thing is that they make different
quality lines ie; Ciera,Trophy,Arriva,Explorer etc. Some of the cheaper
models don't hold up to weathering and abuse, ask the salesman to clarify
which lines are beefier if thats what you need. good luck
Dave - Blue Marlin Marine - Seaford NY
na...@intersurf.com
other lines, and other boat manufacturers in general?
Bernie Cissell
>I'm looking for a new 20' to 24' boat and find that Bayliner seems to
>give alot of boat for your buck, but they carry the worst reputation in
>the midwest. Can someone tell why and have they improved in recent years?
>Thanks in advance for any insight you may have.
>R. Drew
>
I don't think Bayliners are as bad as their reputation. A few years
ago I was also looking for a boat this size. I didn't get a bayliner
primarily because I wanted an aluminum boat. Bayliner was my second
choice. I heard of the bad reputation and hung around the boat
launches talk to different boaters about their boats, especially if
they had a bayliner. What I found was that Bayliner owners loved their
boats and reported no unusal problems. They also said they would buy
another Bayliner. Owners of other boats generally liked their boats
too, but many of them believed that Bayliner was the worst boat on the
water. Several people knew someone who knew someone who had bad luck
with a Bayliner. I also heard people say that the Coast Guard reports
that Bayliner accounts for most of the breakdowns on the water. Funny
thing was, most of the problems were with the engine, and Bayliner
doesn't make engines. I also heard acouple of stories of hulls
breaking on the trailer and in heavy seas(but never any firsthand
accounts). I've read in magazines that Bayliner builds boats to meet,
but not exceede the expected use. This means that you should get
decent use out of it, but unlike a Bosten Whaler, Your grand kids can
forget it. Trailer boat magazine has been using a Bayliner for a
project boat for the last year, you might check them out. Sorry for
being so long winded, but you reminded me of where I was a few years
back, so I thought I would share what I found. Hope it helps.
Bernie
Richard Daines
George (who always says the same things about Bayliners). Brunswick does
not "cut corners", they offer a good, basic product at a good price due to
the fact that they mass produce and don't offer many options. Bayliner is
confident about their product and will even extend the warrantee for two
months for just replying to a survey on how you like the boat. I've owned
mine for three years and have had two other boats of other brands. This
one is better than my Sportcraft and better or equal to my HydraSport.
Bayliner did have a bad period but that was years ago.
George Slade
>
> I'm looking for a new 20' to 24' boat and find that Bayliner seems to
> give alot of boat for your buck, but they carry the worst reputation in
> the midwest. Can someone tell why and have they improved in recent years?
>
> Thanks in advance for any insight you may have.
>
> R. Drew
>
>
to provide people with a cheap boat, bayliner has cut corners.
If you want a cheap boat and don't mind the coners being cut
to achieve that, go for it. If you want a quality boat but
want a cheap price, you will not get it anywhere. A good
quality boat cost money.
I would imagine the cause of most Bayliner problems is
sales hype that leads the consumer to believe they are
buying something more than thay really are.
If you drive a yugo and you are happy with it, you will like
a bayliner. If you drive a mercedes and you like the quality
you will likely not like a bayliner. If you drive something
in between, make up your own mind.
George Slade
KLKevin
bcis...@ix.netcom.com (Bernie Cissell) wrote:
>RobertDrew <bobb...@mailb.starnetinc.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm looking for a new 20' to 24' boat and find that Bayliner seems to
>>give alot of boat for your buck, but they carry the worst reputation in
>>the midwest. Can someone tell why and have they improved in recent years?
>
>>Thanks in advance for any insight you may have.
>
>>R. Drew
>>
>
Powerboat Reports addressed this subject a couple of months ago. What they
basically determined was that at sometime in the past (I think in the
late 1980's) Bayliner rigged their boats out with minimum power packages (ie
underpowered) and sold a ton of them at lower prices. This led to the bad rap.
I think this was before Brunswick owned them.
They also said the CPMY's they make in the 46ft? range with the Hino diesels
get the best reviews from Bayliner owners and have the best resale value.
Personally, I don't like them either, but that's just me.
Gary Korenek
>From: Richard Daines <rda...@q.continuum.net>
>Subject: Re: Bayliner: Bad wrap or bad boats?
>Date: 8 Jan 1996 18:20:29 GMT
> [ ... text deleted ... ]
>Bayliner did have a bad period but that was years ago.
I believe this is the key. Three or so years ago, Bayliner totally redesigned
their Capri line, for the better. Their sales brochures began to address the
''stress'' question with text and pictures of how they test their products. I
was impressed.
Just yesterday I was at the annual winter Houston Boat, Sport, and Travel
show, just looking. One of the boats I would have walked out of their with
is the Capri 2050. For $14,000 you get a 20' bowrider, 5.7L V8 Mercruiser,
and trailer. The only other cost is TTL (no hidden freight and makeready).
The boat looked very well made, and was definitely not underpowered!
My point is: It seems like Bayliner, over the last 2 to 3 years, has taken
steps to address quality, styling, power, and durability issues, all for the
better. I walked away impressed and would own one (pending a on-the-
water test ride).
BTW competing boats (bowriders) in the 20' range with a 5.7L Mercruiser
and trailer were mostly upwards to $20,000 in price. So for the $14,000
for the Bayliner Capri 2050, it is at the very least worth a hard look. IMHO
it looks to be a high quality boat with good horsepower (230?) at a great
price.
No affiliation with Bayliner, just a casual observer.
Gary Korenek
kor...@bangate.compaq.com
Eric Nelson
> >
> >>I'm looking for a new 20' to 24' boat and find that Bayliner seems to
> >>give alot of boat for your buck, but they carry the worst reputation in
> >>the midwest. Can someone tell why and have they improved in recent years?
out many hulls in short periods of time. To do this, their hulls are
sprayed with a chop gun, which sprays out the fiberglass into the mold.
This is opposed to the hand laid method in which fiberglass cloth strips
are laid out from bow to stern. The drawback to the chop gun approach is
that the hull is not as strong. The easiest way to describe the
difference is that it is the same as between paper and woven cloth. Hope
this adds insight to your search.
Eric
ejne...@ucsd.edu
Jackie
The only equipment I had to add was a depthfinder, VHF, PFD's and anchor.
Everything else was on it (2 bilge pumps, head, shower, shore power, hot
& cold H2O, stove, reefer, wash down pump etc) All equipment was brand
name i.e. Rule, Perko, Hubbell, Norcold, Princess. Par/Jabsco etc.
I paid $34,000 out the door in the H20 on Lake Erie.
I sold it 3 years later for $29,000 and that guy got a great deal because
I then had 2 boats in the H2O.
I ran it in rough weather and in smooth. I was out on the Lake headed for
anada when all the SeaRays were tied up. Nothing ever broke! I mean
nothing. The only arguement might have been that a little more HP could
have helped, although it went through a whole bunch less fuel then my
friends new 27' SeaRay with a 330 HP Merc.
It was a great boat, I wish I still had it. To this day I do not
understand why they did not sell better. It was a great boat for me and
my family.
The only problem I ever had was when the points went out and I was
convinced that I had H2O in the gas, but that's another story! I am sure
my wife can tell that one better than I, if you get my gist!
Jon Goodson
Jim Swist
boat manufacturers, they would either be hideously expensive or would be made
of really bottom-end materials & production techniques.
One of the reasons boat components are expensive (aside from the "rich boat
owner" uplift :-) is that there isn't a lot of volume to drive down the price.
US Marine is essentially the only boat manufacturer with enough volume to
actually get a good deal on the supplies they buy, and to justify the
investment in a lot of labor saving tools & mass production apparatus.
The prices this allows US Marine to charge for Bayliners would imply that the
boats must be crap, but I believe that they're probably a good bit better than
that - there just aren't a lot of data points when you have essentially one
General Motors & no Ford or Chrysler.
Jackie
M Charlton
build the things here) and have seen only one with a catastrophic hull
failure that occoured when a 300' ferry ran over it. Every Bayliner owner
I have spoken to is very pleased with their boats the only complaints
that I hear is regarding power. In the 80's Bayliner built a bunch of
woefully underpowered boats although the power options are much better
now many dealers will have the smaller engine packages lurking about the
lot with very nice price tags so be careful to get exactly what you want.
Ron Lord
and the second is my present boat, a 1987 24.5' Cierra.
Both have been great boats, I owned the 16' for 10 years before selling it
for almost as much as I paid for it. The Force motors are junk, I did
have all sorts of problems with it before finally trading it in on a
Yamaha. (Great engine - not one problem in 4 years)
I boat mostly on Lake Ontario, and was never afraid to take either boat on
in the worst conditions. Over the past summer, our Bayliner took us to
Canada 3 times, and we lived on it for 2 weeks. Crossing once in 5-6
waves was not a problem. The boat rides very dry, however, like most
boats in this size range it will pound if you push it too hard in rough
water.
The 24.5 ft is a great all around boat, lot's of living space for it's
size, fast, (40 mph w/ 350 OMC), and best of all, affordable. The things
I don't like about my 24' are the canvas and seat coverings, which I am
having totally re-done this year for about $1.5k. As mentioned in a
previous post, all the mechanicals on Bayliners are name brand, from what
I can see, it is only the cosmetics that they skimp on.
And no, they are not made with paper thin hulls as some people would like
you to believe. I can testify to that, after 10 years of Lake Ontario
pounding, my 16' was still solid, no cracks, leaks or broken bones.
Just my .02.....
--
***OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THOSE OF MY EMPLOYER***
Eric Nelson
>
> And no, they are not made with paper thin hulls as some people would like
> you to believe. I can testify to that, after 10 years of Lake Ontario
> pounding, my 16' was still solid, no cracks, leaks or broken bones.
>
Before this thread turn too far from the original question, I have to
admit, it was a poor example to describe the construction of Bayliner
hulls. Obviously Bayliner sells more boats than any other company, so
they must be doing things right. What I've noticed though, in the last 7
or 8 years, at least in So Cal, Bayliners do not do as well in resale
value as do some other boats. I do not know what contributes to this, it
may very well have nothing to do with the boat, but the care its owner
gave to it. IMHO, Bayliners are a good boats for a great price.
dougl
(deleted) The drawback to the chop gun approach is
>that the hull is not as strong. The easiest way to describe the
>difference is that it is the same as between paper and woven cloth....
I beg to differ. No hull is fabricated with chopstrand (short glass
fibers) alone. This would create an unacceptably weak hull. In all glass
fiber hulls, the chopstrand is used to replace fiberglass mat, which is a
loose collection of short glass fibers used between layers of strong
woven fabrics of various weights (roving and/or cloth) to ensure an
excellent bond and to eliminate 'print-thru' (transference of surface
texture of roving or cloth to the surface of the laminate). The uses for
mat and chopstrand are the same.
In my opinion, handlaid hulls are no more desirable (perhaps less) than
hulls sprayed-up with chopstrand. Handlaid mat is not stronger than
sprayed-up mat, and does not conform as easily to corners and curves. A
few purists will disagree, but those with production experience will not.
Jackie
Jim Swist
misinformation.
1) Yes, virtually all manufacturers use chopped strand to some extent or
another. However, since there is at least some perception that this
methodology
is inferior, virtually all manufacturers stick "hand-laid" somewhere in their
brochures. It is difficult to build a boat without hand laying at least part
of the layup!
2) As someone pointed out earlier, "hand-laid" and "chopped strand" are not
mutually exclusive choices of how to build a hull.
3) You can have bad or good results from either chopped strand or hand layup.
4) The biggest risk of poorly applied chopped strand application is
irregularity, although in practice what usually happens is that too much is
applied. This adds unecessary weight rather than strength.
Hope this helps.
James Davis
Pavlov) writes:
>
>In article <30F218...@sdcc14.ucsd.edu> Eric Nelson
<ejne...@sdcc14.ucsd.edu> writes:
>>
>>>Since Bayliner mass produces boats, they had to come up with a way
to put
>>out many hulls in short periods of time. To do this, their hulls are
>>sprayed with a chop gun, which sprays out the fiberglass into the
mold.
>>This is opposed to the hand laid method in which fiberglass cloth
strips
>>are laid out from bow to stern. The drawback to the chop gun
approach is
>>that the hull is not as strong. The easiest way to describe the
>>difference is that it is the same as between paper and woven cloth.
Hope
>>this adds insight to your search.
>>
>
> I think that a closer analogy is chipboard to plywood. But anyway, a
few
> questions. Don't a fair number of boat manufacturers use this method
?
> Is it all of the material in the hull or part ? I.e., aren't there
one or
> more layers of cloth over which the chopped strand is sprayed ? Is
the
> final result a weaker hull or one that is heavier, because more
material
> is needed to achieve the desired strength when chopped strand is used
?
>> greg pavlov
> pav...@fstrf.org
Yes, No...and maybe. Several postings back there was an excellent
response that hinted at how complicated this whole issue is. A chopgun
and the operator it takes to make it go and the process that they
follow and the materials they use along with environmental factors like
temp etc.., all have a bearing on results. It is possible to fabricate
a boat with just chopped fibers and resin - you would not want to own
one. It would be ugly and very heavy with poor and rather unpredictable
structural characteristics. Chopped fibers do well over gelcoat to
eliminate print thru of the underlying materials in the hull layup. It
can be difficult to control the resin to glass ratio with a chop gun.
Some diligence in setup and experiemce in usage is required. This would
imply that process controls and training are a must. And there is more,
much more....How do you know? Look for happy customers, and unhappy
ones. Ask to tour the plant. Look for evidence of strict bill of
material control of the layup schedule for a model and process checks
along the way. Look for frequent weighings of the hull and major
components as it is layed up. Look for cycle time in the mold - the
longer the better - but expect to pay for it - when they need another
mold to support production rates just so your boat can fully cure
(actually this takes months, maybe years) before being finished.
Generally - look for the use of core materials - they indicate savvy.
Or, if you can afford the gas, look for what I call a
brick-shit-house-boat. One that weighs a ton and has the reputation to
go with it - older Aquasports come to mind, maybe Mako's. Or eliminate
all this chemical process stuff and trade it for a smaller set of
worries - buy a welded aluminum boat. That's what I did. I wanted a
boat that the beach was afraid of - not the other way round.!
Jim Davis
Dave Boyer
husband and I are also curious about the quality and resale value of
Bayliners. We have no boat, but recently completed a Coast Guard Course
in boating and have been to marinas and boatshows. We are particularly
fond of the design of the Ciera series that Bayliner manufacturers
especially the Ciera 2858 command bridge model. We have also heard bad
things about the
resale value, but are interested in buying a used boat. We're not
interested in trailerability and are looking for a boat atleast 25
feet. This boat would be moored about one hour from our home in the
Chesapeake and used for cruising in associated intercoastal waterways. How
stupid are we?
Guy Milton
Sunbridge. It had a 5.0 L engine which was just powerful enough for that
boat. This fall we traded up to a 2850 Bayliner Contessa. This boat was
originally powered by a 5.7 L engine which was not big enough for the
boat. The previous owner repowered with a 455 Volvo Duoprop and the boat
performs nicely with this engine.
My advice to you if you're looking for a Bayliner in this size range is
to make sure it has a big block engine (either the 460 or 455).
I was originally leery about buying a Bayliner because of their
reputation. I talked to a couple of marine surveyors and they indicated
that Bayliners did not necessarily have any more hull problems than any
other types of boats. When I saw how much boat we were able to get for
what seemed to be about 2/3 the asking price of other boat makes I decided
to go for the Bayliner. I was happy with the first one, so I stuck with
Bayliner for our second boat.
Good Luck,
Guy
Ed McCrudden
George Slade <George...@mindlink.bc.ca> wrote:
>You never see a post like "I had a Grady White, it cost to much
>so I sold it and bought a Bayliner,
^^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^^^
This should read, "so I sold it and bought TWO Bayliners, with change
left over...."
That's why people start out with Bayliners instead of Gradys.
Ed (still waiting for his first Grady, but skipped the Bayliner stage..)
<em...@io.org>
Gary Diel
started and didn't cost a fortune
-
GARY DIEL FQT...@prodigy.com
George Slade
I notice most Bayliner owners post this way. "I had a Bayliner
it was fine, and it did not cost a lot."
You never see a post like "I had a Grady White, it cost to much
so I sold it and bought a Bayliner, I am happier now." (let
me gag for a while.......
The point is if the only boat you know is a Bayliner, it seems fine
but if you know a better boat, you will not go down to a Bayliner.
like food, if all you know is hot dogs they are fine, but once you
have had good food hod dogs seem a little lame.
George Slade
Bob Wagner
add my two cents. My current boat is about my 18th or 19th since my
first one as a teenager. I sold urethane, silicone and machinery to
Bayliner as a independent factory rep for years. I sold to them before
and after the change of ownership. I also sold to most of the medium
to large boat manufacturers in the eleven Western States.
In the last few years having left behind my life as a road warrior I
worked part time at the marina where I keep my boat. This is a high
volume private vessel factory authorized OMC/Mercruiser/Volvo marine
repair operation. Many of their customers are Bayliner owners.
Bayliner's main plant is in Arlington, WA about ten miles away.
Suffice it to say I have seen a lot of Bayliners.
It's been my experience that most reputations are based on, at least,
a kernel of truth. In that regard, earlier model Bayliners often were
found lacking. Questionable design and lower quality materials
combined with deficient quality control were not unusual. The core
work force was fine but when production volume peaked if you had a
strong back you got a job and the QC was a gamble even on their well
designed models. If you chose a well designed model and your
individual boat was built by a team of their higher skilled employees
the only drawback was that the materials used, such as chip-board,
fresh water hardware, etc., resulted in only a fair boat. In addition,
the combination of the fuel shortages of the 70's and an effort to
keep sales volume high through low prices resulted in many older
Bayliners being under powered.
All this happened more than ten years ago. The "new" Bayliner has
changed in most ways but seems to have a tendency to go back to old
habits at times. First, I must say, in all the years I dealt with
Bayliner not one employee ever said anything to me to indicate they
weren't interested in building a good boat, in fact, just the
opposite.
From what I've seen in recent years Bayliner designs, across the
board, are now among the best in the industry. Their choice of
materials has improved substantially. The two things that remain a
problem are quality control and under powering (for price).
The QC problems seem to be less frequent but sometimes glaring, when
they happen, but not systemic which is a big improvement unless you're
the one stuck with the big problem. Individual dealer warranty
performance should be researched.
I've always suspected the under powering problem has been dealer
driven. Many under powered Bayliners are propped to enable the dealer
to get an under powered boat on plane in a reasonable time for demos
but maintaining a decent cruising speed requires way too many rpms.
I suspect a properly powered, well inspected, new or late model
Bayliner is a good choice for a boater who has a history of not being
too hard on their stuff. Personally I discovered a long time ago my
best bet is to buy boats that have such a high reputation that I don't
have to tell a story about why I bought it. This has resulted in my
not having the newest boat or the biggest boat but you can't have
everything. I have never owned a Bayliner.
Bob Wagner --------------------------------------------------
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Robert Drongowski
Date: 10 Jan 1996 18:04:23 GMT
In article <4d0v37$m...@netope.harvard.edu> Greg Pavlov,
pav...@sdac.harvard.edu writes:
> So: how about some "real data" ? Is there any ? A lot of folks come
into
> this group who are considering buying Bayliners because they seem
to
> be a good value for the money. If there are honest-to-goodness real
> problems to be concerned about, they should know about them.
I scanned the latest BOAT/USA used boat listings and came up with the
following data for boats 20 to 28 foot in length, ranked by number of
brands advertised:
Brand Mean Boat Age Number
Sea Ray 89.57 7
Bayliner 87.60 5
Sportcraft 85.75 4
Mako 84.67 3
Grady White 87.67 3
Wellcraft 85.00 3
This data reflects only one month's advertising, but seems to agree with
other "for sale" publications which are both local (Michigan) and
national in scope (from my observations). Although this is a very, very
small sampling, it may reflect what is occuring on a larger scale.
Hence, Sea Ray's are the most often listed boat for sale, and are kept a
shorter length of time than any other brand. Bayliners are kept roughly
2 years longer than Sea Ray, Sportcraft 4 years longer, Grady White the
same length of time as Bayliners etc.
IF, IF, IF ... this is a reflection of the real data, it would say that
more Sea Ray's are listed to be sold than any other brand, and that
Bayliner's and Grady Whites are comparable as to length of ownership.
I know this data may be completely meaningless, however, I see roughly
the same ratio's of boats for sale in most publications I look at. Why
the boats are for sale, resale price, condition of the boats being listed
etc. are all legitimate questions, but that data is not available.
Gary Korenek
>From: Robert Drongowski <drong...@um.cc.umich.edu>
>Subject: Re: Bayliner: Bad wrap or bad boats?
>Subject: Re: Bayliner: Bad wrap or bad boats?
>From: Greg Pavlov, pav...@sdac.harvard.edu
>Date: 10 Jan 1996 18:04:23 GMT
>In article <4d0v37$m...@netope.harvard.edu> Greg Pavlov,
>pav...@sdac.harvard.edu writes:
>[ ... ]
>I scanned the latest BOAT/USA used boat listings and came up with the
>following data for boats 20 to 28 foot in length, ranked by number of
>brands advertised:
>Brand Mean Boat Age Number
>Sea Ray 89.57 7
>Bayliner 87.60 5
>Sportcraft 85.75 4
>[ ... ]
What comes to mind is that you see used Sea Ray and Bayliner boats
more frequently than others for sale because:
1. There are more of them out there than others
2. This boat was a first boat purchase, now selling it to get the *right*
boat because:
a) Want more horsepower (want to go faster, carry more people)
b) Want more length/beam for better ride (and to hold more people)
c) Want to change engine type (e.g. get Outboard instead of I/O,
etc.)
I wonder how many people get the exact right boat for them on their very
first boat purchase. On my first purchase, due to limited $$s, I bought a
boat that was too short, too heavy and hard to trailer/launch/retrieve,
and too slow (not enough horsepower). My point is it seems you almost
have to buy a boat and live with it for a length of time to determine likes/
dislikes. Then the second boat purchase is where you get what you
really want and correct mistakes made with the first boat purchase.
When I look at ads for used boats, mostly what I see is somebody elses
first boat(s), and they want to sell it to get what they really want. Also
in the majority of used boat ads I see (and this is the 16 to 21 foot
pleasure boat range) I see the boat being under-horsepowered. Like
duh, no wonder these folks are selling!
Gary Korenek
kor...@bangate.compaq.com
Diver
125 hp OB on the 19' cuddy.
I've had it since new. Rebuilt the motor
because of a bad gas/detonation problem.
The boat was $9600. new with the usual
trailer/motor. I've used it on the Potomac and
Chesapeake Bay for skiing and general fun.
Now it's in Orange County and I go across
to Santa Catalina and dive from it, regularly.
It's not the highest quality fit-finish, but it's
served me WELL!
It's 4-sale now because I'm ready for something a little
larger, in the 22-25 Skipjack range.
I can't say enough positive about it.
Value for dollar? You bet!
Junk boat? No way! (just not the best)
Would I guy another? Sure, I'm considering their Trophy series.
This is just MY opinion and experience.
Charlie Metcalf
(snip)
> 2. This boat was a first boat purchase, now selling it to get the *right*
> boat because:
> a) Want more horsepower (want to go faster, carry more people)
> b) Want more length/beam for better ride (and to hold more people)
> c) Want to change engine type (e.g. get Outboard instead of I/O,
> etc.)
>
>I wonder how many people get the exact right boat for them on their very
>first boat purchase. On my first purchase, due to limited $$s, I bought a
>boat that was too short, too heavy and hard to trailer/launch/retrieve,
>and too slow (not enough horsepower). My point is it seems you almost
>have to buy a boat and live with it for a length of time to determine likes/
>dislikes. Then the second boat purchase is where you get what you
>really want and correct mistakes made with the first boat purchase.
>
>When I look at ads for used boats, mostly what I see is somebody elses
>first boat(s), and they want to sell it to get what they really want. Also
>in the majority of used boat ads I see (and this is the 16 to 21 foot
>pleasure boat range) I see the boat being under-horsepowered. Like
>duh, no wonder these folks are selling!
Thanks so much. We've been saving our money and shopping around (even today
in the drizzle). Your posting explains an awful lot of what we're seeing in
the used boat market. It's one of those moments of clarity that come all too
seldom in life.
Charlie
************************
* Charlie Metcalf *
************************
Hear the new sound sensation:
Newtie & the Blowhards
by popular demand, but for a
limited engagement only.
jim
when we sold them. We also loved every one of them! Our last was
a 1992 Bayliner Ciera Sunbridge 2655 that we bought new in '92.
It had the 5.7 liter Mercruiser. We have recently gotten into
sailing and bought a 40 foot sailboat. We sold the 2655 in Spring
of 95 after 3 seasons of use on the Chesapeake Bay for $500 less
than we paid for it NEW! WE REALLY miss it, and now that we are
buying a waterfont home with boatslips, we will probably buy
another Bayliner just for fishing, etc. I have found that the
people that slam Bayliner really are ignorant of the company. In
1987 US Marine aquired Bayliner (and several other boat
manufacturers) and pumped tons of money into R&D and cam out with
a real quailty product. Pre 1987 Bayliners may be questionable. I
have a friend with a Sea Ray that swears by it, but when we
compared stats, HE discovered that his Sea Ray was a Bayliner
with teak! Everything else was the same. Good luck in your
search, Bayliner really stands behind their product and they have
a huge service network. Jim Des Roches
Rod Mc Innis
: In article <korenek.8...@bangate.compaq.com>,
: > 2. This boat was a first boat purchase, now selling it to get the *right*
: > boat because:
: > a) Want more horsepower (want to go faster, carry more people)
: > b) Want more length/beam for better ride (and to hold more people)
: > c) Want to change engine type (e.g. get Outboard instead of I/O,
: > etc.)
: >
: >I wonder how many people get the exact right boat for them on their very
: >first boat purchase.
: Thanks so much. We've been saving our money and shopping around (even today
: in the drizzle). Your posting explains an awful lot of what we're seeing in
: the used boat market. It's one of those moments of clarity that come all too
: seldom in life.
: Charlie
Part of the problem is that there is no perfect boat, and the grass is
always greener on the other side of the fence.
More often than not, you will grow into a certain boat.
Unfortunately, the boat you grow into may not be the one you have.
First boats tend to be less expensive models, as that is all you can
afford. From the day you buy it, you will always be looking at other
boats, saying to youself "I wish I had one of those".
So you start with a small, economical boat, but yearn for one of those
double cabin, twin engine, flybridge cruisers. Then some day you get
one, and discover that 1) It doesn't fit under the fixed bridges. 2) It
draws more water, and can't get you to your favorite spot. 3) You had
to raise the credit limit on the charge card so that you can fill it up.
4) You spend more time cleaning and fixing than cruising and fishing.
My family has ski boats starting from when I was 11. The first boat
that my wife and I bought was a 25' wooden hulled cruiser. It was a
tight fit for a family of four, and didn't leave room for guests. But I
only paid $2700 for it (plus about $1000 a year in upkeep) and I ended
up selling it for $5000.
I have never regretted buying that boat. If nothing else, it refined
our qualifications for the next boat. Things we thought were important
turned out to not matter, and things we had never thought of were added
to the list.
So now we have our big flybridge cruiser. But sometimes I still wish
I had that old '56 Stephens.
Rod McInnis
George Slade
If you are thinking of buying a boat, go to your local
charter fleet operator. Ask if your proposed boat could become
part of the fleet. If they say yes, you can bet the boat
will stand up well. If they say no. Run away,
If you are looking at a bayliner, I bet they will say no.
George Slade
Selwyn Polit
> What comes to mind is that you see used Sea Ray and Bayliner boats
> more frequently than others for sale because:
> 1. There are more of them out there than others
> boat because:
> a) Want more horsepower (want to go faster, carry more people)
> b) Want more length/beam for better ride (and to hold more people)
> c) Want to change engine type (e.g. get Outboard instead of I/O,
> etc.)
>
> I wonder how many people get the exact right boat for them on their very
> boat that was too short, too heavy and hard to trailer/launch/retrieve,
> and too slow (not enough horsepower). My point is it seems you almost
> have to buy a boat and live with it for a length of time to determine likes/
> dislikes. Then the second boat purchase is where you get what you
> really want and correct mistakes made with the first boat purchase.
>
> When I look at ads for used boats, mostly what I see is somebody elses
> first boat(s), and they want to sell it to get what they really want. Also
> in the majority of used boat ads I see (and this is the 16 to 21 foot
> pleasure boat range) I see the boat being under-horsepowered. Like
> duh, no wonder these folks are selling!
>
> kor...@bangate.compaq.com
I am contemplating purchasing a Sea Ray 240 or 250 Sundancer for use on Lake Travis.
My first foray into a boat with a cabin... currently have a 1985 Sea Arrow 18' open bow.
Any specific opinions re: the Sea Ray lines? resell info... quality..?
Selwyn Polit
sel...@i-link.net
Richard Daines
boat" as a recreational craft. Just like people arren't going to but
Hummers instead of Neons. Besides, we have people using Bayliners as
offshore charter boats and lobster boats here in CT. I guess they meet
your criteria then...
--
Richard J. Daines
Mystic, CT
Bill Walker
brought home a 15' Wizard runabout with Gale outboard when I was two
(1960), moved up to a 16' Brunswick runabout with 75 HP Mercury outboard a
few years later, and finally got a 17' Dorsett with Mercruiser 160 HP
stern drive in 1967. All were used almost exclusively for water skiing.
It's only taken me two boats to get happy, and the first one was my dad's
last one, which I had for 10 years (1983-1993). Then I got a 20' Tige'
2002 with a 265 HP Merc inboard, with which I'm very happy (so far).
----------
Bill Walker - WWa...@qualcomm.com - QUALCOMM, Inc., San Diego, CA USA
"First thing we do, we kill all the lawyers." - Shakespeare
Ed Mecka
Prior to the sale of BAYLINER to the BRUNSWICK Corp. in 1987, the VOLVO I/O
costs were skyrocketing. Bayliner desperately needed cost effective power
solutions and OMC was looking to saturate the market with their product. This
marriage of convience did not benifit the consumer. I/O problems and engine
valve problems (overloaded engines) quickly took the gleam out of the
relationship. I speak from first hand knowledge, I owned a 1987 25' Ceira.
IRONICALLY, Bayliner was locked into a three year contract (87-89) with OMC and
now owned by BRUNSWICK CORP. (who also owns of Mercruiser). MY OPINON is that
quality control and customer support by BAYLINER for anything relating to the
OMC I/O and engine slowly evaporated. OMC's dreams of overtaking Mercruiser
faded as the reality took hold.
My ongoing battle with US MARINE lasted almost three years and resulted in two
engine upgrades and three visits from there corporate trouble shooters. The
end result was the removal of the OMC product and its replacement with a
MERCUISER 454 BRAVO II I/O package.
As for todays Bayliner or SEARAY products, I would be cautious about
underpowered boats no matter who made them. I would hope that a little of the
Sea Ray quality rubbed off on Bayliner but after what I went through I think
that time will show the appropiate name as BAY-RAY.
I went to the NY BOAT show and stopped by the VOLVO I/O display. When I asked
about the OMC involvement in their product line, the sales rep. stammered that
the outdrive was 1000% VOLVO and the engines were marinized by OMC.
----
Ed Mecka edm...@ix.netcom.com
Peter W. Meek
I have never said to my self, "Gee I wish I had bought
*that* boat instead of this one," so I guess I got
it right the first time. However, I bought my first
boat late in life (as these things go). At 50, I
had been around boats, but always someone else's,
for most of my life. I had good opportunity to
see the results of bad choices and refine my
own wish list. Then I saw the model I own now
in a dealer's yard and said, "That's it! That's
the boat that's been shaping up in my mind for
all these years." And I bought it.
My needs have changed over the time I've owned
it and I'm looking at another boat, but I
still think I bought the right boat for
my needs at the time. The boat I'm looking at now
is the first boat that had that 'That's it!'
characteristic since I crystalized my new
criteria -- I suspect I will eventually buy it
and be happy with it.
BTW, for the curious: the first boat was a Stratos
20' center console; the new boat is (will be?) a
Parker with a sort of pilot-house+cuddy layout at
about 24-25'. Both outboard-powered with Evinrudes.
Both these boats are (for all practical purposes)
not sold in my part of the country. The first was
a fluke -- the dealer saw them and wanted to
carry them. In the second case, I took a Parker
catalog to a local dealer and he is now negotiating
with Parker to become the first mid-west Parker
dealer that I know of.
--
--Pete <pwm...@mail.msen.com> http://www.msen.com/~pwmeek/
...I studied with diligence Neptune's laws,
and these laws I tried to obey... <Joshua Slocum>
acss...@acs.eku.edu
> Charlie Metcalf (str...@a.crl.com) wrote:
> : In article <korenek.8...@bangate.compaq.com>,
>
>
> : > boat because:
> : > a) Want more horsepower (want to go faster, carry more people)
> : > b) Want more length/beam for better ride (and to hold more people)
> : > c) Want to change engine type (e.g. get Outboard instead of I/O,
> : > etc.)
> : >
> : >I wonder how many people get the exact right boat for them on their very
> : >first boat purchase.
>
>
>
> : in the drizzle). Your posting explains an awful lot of what we're seeing in
> : the used boat market. It's one of those moments of clarity that come all too
> : seldom in life.
>
> : Charlie
>
>
>
For us it took 2 times. We actually knew before we bought our first boat
what we wanted, but didn't think we could afford it. A guy I graduated
high school with had a 1989 Baja 196 Sunsport, whenever we would se it
we would just drool.
In Oct 1992 we found a buyer for our 1978 Sea Ray (170 hp) and in
December 1992 we ordered our 196 Sunsport. We have been very pleased
with it, no problems, no regrets. There are still a couple things I
might add in the near future... power hatch equip (not necessary, but a
nice toy), depth finder (again, not necessary, but a nice toy). If I
could talk my wife into it I would try a Land & Sea Stern Jack or a
super charger. The wife says it goes fast enough now... and at 63-64
mph, maybe she is right.
Anyway I expect this boat to keep us happy until the days of retirement
come along.
Dudley Cornman
Systems Programmer
Academic Computing Services - EKU
ACSS...@ACS.EKU.EDU
********************************************************************
*** When it comes to boats... ***
*** I'd rather have a new boat than a used boat... ***
*** I'd rather have a Baja than a Bayliner... ***
*** I'd rather have a used Bayliner than no boat at all... ***
********************************************************************
Bill Walker
EdM...@ix.netcom.com (Ed Mecka) wrote:
[...]
> I went to the NY BOAT show and stopped by the VOLVO I/O display. When
I asked
> about the OMC involvement in their product line, the sales rep.
stammered that
> the outdrive was 1000% VOLVO and the engines were marinized by OMC.
Funny, they sure _look_ like OMC Cobra outdrives. Volvo has made some
changes, no doubt, but those outdrives _can't_ be 100% Volvo.
Bill C.
We also spent some time (3 years) deciding what boat we wanted. All
those decisions are a compromise. We have a Hunter 23.5 sailboat. There
are some things we wouldn't try with this boat, but we never had any
plans to cross the Atlantic in it anyway. We went to a boat show here in
Michigan, and there our boat, the price, and our budget all met.
The dealer told us that "most" boat purchases are made on impulse.
Maybe that accounts for the so-called "two foot disease". Boat owners are
always wishing they had bought a different boat... about two feet longer.
A more careful purchase probably avoids that disease. I wonder how old
one has to be before a choice like that can be made.
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad
judgement".
Bill C.
Butt-head
>I am contemplating purchasing a Sea Ray 240 or 250 Sundancer for use on Lake Travis.
>My first foray into a boat with a cabin... currently have a 1985 Sea Arrow 18' open bow.
>Any specific opinions re: the Sea Ray lines? resell info... quality..?
I'm on my second SeaRay. The first was a 23' Cuddy. Now I have a 268
Sundancer. Both are 1986 models. They ride like they're on rails, and the
hulls are rock-solid. Fit and finish is excellent, and neither boat shows
its age. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one!
-geo
--
____________________________
butt...@mars.superlink.net
"There is no hell. There's only God when he's drunk."--Tom Waits
1329C1000-Garry Heon(MT4084)NOBIN
>
snip
>For us it took 2 times. We actually knew before we bought our first boat
>what we wanted, but didn't think we could afford it. A guy I graduated
>high school with had a 1989 Baja 196 Sunsport, whenever we would se it
>we would just drool.
Consider yourself lucky. I'm on my 4th try. Started in 1986 with
an '83 16' Silverline with an '86 140 hp Evinrude. Sold it in '88
to buy an '88 Chaparrel 235 XLC, I thought this was _it_, took
delivery in May traded it in Sept (lousy ride) to order a '89 Baja 280 Sport.
Now I thought I was really in heaven. The ride was ok and it was reasonably
fast. Boat lasted 6 years sold it as is for $1500 (I kept the motors). I'm
now on what I hope is my final try, a 41' Thoroughbred, although it's not
rigged exactly the way I would like. I love the boat's design and
construction (S-glass) but if I had the extra $$$ I'd opt for staggared
engines and SSM III drives. I'd also install new 1000 hp engines instead of
the 450s out of my Baja. Not a compromise considering the engines and drives
could always be added later however I stuck with side by side vs the staggared.
Garry Heon
ga...@holly.att.com
My Opinions....AT&T's Network.
Patrick O'Neill
wwa...@qualcomm.com (Bill Walker) wrote:
> Funny, they sure _look_ like OMC Cobra outdrives. Volvo has made some
> changes, no doubt, but those outdrives _can't_ be 100% Volvo.
> ----------
> Bill Walker - WWa...@qualcomm.com - QUALCOMM, Inc., San Diego, CA USA
> "First thing we do, we kill all the lawyers." - Shakespeare
From what I understand, the engine and upper gearcase are Volvo equipment
(Cobra owners - NO MORE DOG CLUTCH!), and the lower unit is all Cobra.
Patrick O'Neill
ozo...@wolfenet.com
******************************************************************
"In a race between a rock and a pig, don't varnish your clams."
Dilbert (Actually, an Elbonian talking to Dilbert)
******************************************************************
Selwyn Polit
>
>I'm on my second SeaRay. The first was a 23' Cuddy. Now I have a 268
>Sundancer. Both are 1986 models. They ride like they're on rails, and
the
>hulls are rock-solid. Fit and finish is excellent, and neither boat
shows
>its age. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one!
>
> -geo
>
Thanks for your comments - bought the thing this evening - had a great
ride in it. I am very pleased so far. Should take delivery in a week or
so.
Selwyn
acss...@acs.eku.edu
> Consider yourself lucky. I'm on my 4th try. Started in 1986 with
> an '83 16' Silverline with an '86 140 hp Evinrude. Sold it in '88
> to buy an '88 Chaparrel 235 XLC, I thought this was _it_, took
> delivery in May traded it in Sept (lousy ride) to order a '89 Baja 280 Sport.
> Now I thought I was really in heaven. The ride was ok and it was reasonably
> fast. Boat lasted 6 years sold it as is for $1500 (I kept the motors). I'm
> now on what I hope is my final try, a 41' Thoroughbred, although it's not
> rigged exactly the way I would like. I love the boat's design and
> construction (S-glass) but if I had the extra $$$ I'd opt for staggared
> engines and SSM III drives. I'd also install new 1000 hp engines instead of
> the 450s out of my Baja. Not a compromise considering the engines and drives
> could always be added later however I stuck with side by side vs the staggared.
>
> Garry Heon
> ga...@holly.att.com
> My Opinions....AT&T's Network.
Garry,
From many of your writings, you must have known the 16'er wasn't
it... And I suspect that down deep you knew all along the 235 wasn't it
either. And when your eventual boat is 41' feet, even the 280 comes up
short. At least you are there now... almost... gotta get more ponies.
acss...@acs.eku.edu
> The 1987 - 1989 Bayliners all had one thing in common, the OMC I/O power plant.
> Prior to the sale of BAYLINER to the BRUNSWICK Corp. in 1987, the VOLVO I/O
> costs were skyrocketing. Bayliner desperately needed cost effective power
> solutions and OMC was looking to saturate the market with their product. This
> marriage of convience did not benifit the consumer. I/O problems and engine
> valve problems (overloaded engines) quickly took the gleam out of the
> relationship. I speak from first hand knowledge, I owned a 1987 25' Ceira.
You are aware that OMC, Yamaha, Mercruiser and others all get their
engines from the same places... either Ford or GM. You don't say what
engine was in your boat, But it wouldn't suprise me if it was a 130 hp
inline 4 or a 4.3 liter V6, or at best a 5.0L V8. If so, my question to
you is... why would you buy a boat that is either completely under
powered or only marginally powered in the first place? A boat that size
cries out for a big block.
I'm a Mercruiser fan but I wean't aware that the OMC outdrives were as
bad as you say. Anyone else have a similar experience? Was it only their
alpha-like drives or was it the King Cobra too?
Joe Vrana
>I'm a Mercruiser fan but I wean't aware that the OMC outdrives were as
>bad as you say.
Nothing wrong with OMC's.They use Ford and Chev. engines. If you put a 4
cylinder engine into any boat that should normally have a big block, it will
be toast in no time as well. From what I am told, Mercruiser was using Dodge
engines on *some* drives for a period of time. These were supposed to be
proven very unreliable, but I don't know the complete story.
>Anyone else have a similar experience? Was it only their
>alpha-like drives or was it the King Cobra too?
>
Alpha-Drives are made by MerCruiser. The OMC King Cobra's are far superior to
the Alpha Drives. Take one out for a test drive. You will notice much smoother
shifting, substaintially less gear noise as well as they are easy to service
and work on. I own an OMC drive and haven't had a problem yet. A lot also
depends on the operator.
Joe V.
Richard Daines
Based on what I see at the marina and what my mechanic says, your
observations are the exact opposite. Alpha appear to be smoother and more
reliable. Prehaps we are victims of a small sample size?
matthewha...@gmail.com
Tim
7:31 AMmatthewha...@gmail.com
John
>The only reason they are able to sell them so cheap is because the company that makes bayliner also manufactures sea ray lowe and a bunch of other brands including manufacturing mercury motors so they absolutely can afford to lose money or break even on bayliner in order to get people out on the water thats why they are so affordable but they are deffinently not bad boats
--
Freedom Isn't Free!
Justan
>The only reason they are able to sell them so cheap is because the company that makes bayliner also manufactures sea ray lowe and a bunch of other brands including manufacturing mercury motors so they absolutely can afford to lose money or break even on bayliner in order to get people out on the water thats why they are so affordable but they are deffinently not bad boats
Bill
cheaply. Thin glasswork, etc. when you can push on the sides and get
movement, the longevity of a boat will not be a long time if any rough
water.
John
wrote:
dealer in Seattle to talk about prices, etc. He strongly suggested I consider
upgrading the engine to an Evinrude instead of the Force which was standard.
When I asked him why, his response was, "Well, the Force is basically a
'throw-away' engine."
That convinced me I didn't want a Bayliner.
Bill
waynebatr...@hotmail.com
wrote:
>I think they’ve done quite a bit to improve the build quality in recent years.
>
>7:31 AMmatthewha...@gmail.com
>The only reason they are able to sell them so cheap is because the company that makes bayliner also manufactures sea ray lowe and a bunch of other brands including manufacturing mercury motors so they absolutely can afford to lose money or break even on bayliner in order to get people out on the water thats why they are so affordable but they are deffinently not bad boats
Just when I was hoping to never see another Bayliner thread here. :-)
At least it's about boating.
My neighbor across the canal has a 20 something CC with twin outboards
on it. He's had it for a while and seems happy with it. Would I want
to take it 50 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico? Heck no, that's not
what it's designed and built for. We have a lot of inshore water here
however and it seems fine for that.
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Alex
salespeople has cost him a lot every time he got screwed.