Stronger rubber cement?

[Joerg]

Gentlemen,

Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
cheap small tubes are available.

The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

try DT or Specialized.

or for example

https://www.google.com/#q=rubber+contact+cement&tbm=shop

contact cement not rubber adhesive.

Henkel-Loctite has one last I looked.

Weldwood red is super contact cement but its a liquid not thickened liquid like Weldwood in the glass bottle which is OK.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

https://www.google.com/#q=tire%20sidewall%20movement%20site%3Ayoutube.com

https://www.google.com/#q=tire+contact+patch+movement&tbm=vid

could be a movement video in there….dig the tire machine !!!

no, sidewall patches are difficult as the sidewall flexes more than the center contact patch.

I could try images

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1210&bih=612&q=tire+sidewall+movement&oq=tire+sidewall+movement&gs_l=img.12...2565.9686.0.13089.22.12.0.10.4.0.342.1764.0j8j0j1.9.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..3.12.1650...0j0i30k1j0i8i30k1j0i24k1.4Op_7Q5DHAA

[AMuzi]

See an auto parts house for Tech rubber cement in the steel
can. You might want their buffer solution too - very
effective for cleaning before your patch.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[John B.]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:04:40 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

My LBS usually has small sealed tubes of glue. When I see them I buy
four or five and when I open a sealed tube, in the kit on the bike, I
replace it with another sealed one as find the glue has dried up is
not quite so much of a catastrophe at home :-)

Or you might try contact cement what I suspect is what is in the usual
tire patching kit.

By the way, "vulcanizing" implies the use of heat, and sulphur, and I
remember when I was in high school working at a local gas station we
had a clamp that had a sort of cup as part of it. We glued the patch
on than clamped it and filled the cup with gasoline and lit it. When
everything had cooled down the patch seemed to be a part of the tube,
not something glued on.
See: http://tinyurl.com/jdvfgbu for a modern electrical device to do
the same thing.
--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Right ! I forgotto... bought both from NAPA for a last try at rejoining boots to lugged soles.

Need jigsawing 2 squeeze together ply sheets closing top edges of the bathtub lugged sole onto the boot.

[David Scheidt]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
:On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:04:40 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

:wrote:

:>Gentlemen,
:>
:>Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
:>kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
:>cheap small tubes are available.
:>
:>The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
:>blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
:>The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
:>and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
:>REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
:>but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.

:My LBS usually has small sealed tubes of glue. When I see them I buy
:four or five and when I open a sealed tube, in the kit on the bike, I
:replace it with another sealed one as find the glue has dried up is
:not quite so much of a catastrophe at home :-)

:Or you might try contact cement what I suspect is what is in the usual
:tire patching kit.

:By the way, "vulcanizing" implies the use of heat, and sulphur, and I

Vulcanizing may have the connotation of involving heat, but it's a chemical
reaction, which results in the sulphur in the rubber becoming
crosslinked. Patches, at least the good ones such as Rema and park,
are a multi-layered assembly. The top layers are for strength, the
bottom (closest to the tube) consists of unvulcanized rubber, mixed
with a vulcanizing ultra-accelerator (there are a number of zinc
thiols that are suitable, which ones are used are trade secrets. ZDDP
is typical, though). vulcanizing cement consists of a unvulcanized
rubber particles, a solvent to carry them, and a vulcanizing
activator. Cyclohexylamine is common, but there are others that will
work, and are less toxic. The activator reacts with the zinc thiol,
and causes the patch, the rubber in the cement, and the surface of
tube to become vulcanized. There's not much free sulphur in the tube,
because it's vulcanized, which is one of the reasons that it's
important to properly scarify the tube surface before patching; it
greatly increases the surface area of the patch. The reaction is not
instant, but it happens pretty fast at room temperature, and
continues for some time, until all the sulphur available has linke.d

The accelerator in the cement is one reason that tubes of glue
sometimes are just rubber, and not cement.



--
sig 56

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:04:40 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
>kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
>cheap small tubes are available.

Contact cement. It's a neoprene rubber based goo that remains fairly
flexible if applied in a very thin layer. Smear some on both the tire
and the patch, let air dry for at least 10 minutes (longer is better),
and stick together with a little compression pressure. I've used a
roller, two blocks of wood and a C-clamp, and beating on the sandwich
with a hammer. They all work.

Rubber cement is a latex rubber based goo. Otherwise, it's similar to
contact cement. It also uses many of the same solvents as contact
cement. Bicycle patches use heptane, naphtha, or a mixture of both.
Rubber and contact cement use these or other organic solvents. There's
also a water based version of rubber cement.

Contact cement solvents won't evaporate as fast as rubber cement
because the contact cement is thicker in the bottle and forms an
effective barrier. However, the solvents will rapidly evaporate if
the can, bottle, or tube is left in the sun.

Contact cement on bicycle tubes is nothing new:
<http://www.bicitoro.com/how-to-glue-inner-tubes/>
However, if do some Googling, you'll probably find testimonials from
people trying contact cement, and claiming it doesn't work. The
problem is that while rubber cement vulcanizing patches require
cleaning and sanding before applying, some people seem to forget to do
these things when using contact cement.

I've also tried glue used for patching my wet suit:
<https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mcnett-14114-Seal-Cement-2-Oz-Tube-Black/21970283>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9QK0yF540c>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=neoprene+wetsuit+glue&tbm=isch>
<http://www.bodylinewetsuits.co.uk/2015/01/12/using-black-witch-neoprene-glue/>
I've only done one tire with wet suit glue and found that it didn't
last. However, that was in a rush, with little preparation, no
clamping, and I used a piece of vinyl for the patch. I suspect I can
improve the bond if I were more organized and careful.

>The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
>blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
>The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
>and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
>REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
>but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.

Hmmm... contact cement is more expensive than rubber cement. If I had
to find something cheaper than rubber cement, methinks RTV (room
temperature vulcanizing rubber) would probably qualify. The catch is
that you might have to wait overnight for the RTV to harden.

Anyway, I suggest you sacrifice an old tube, cut it apart, cut some
slits, patch with the various available glues, and test the results
with a pull test, peel test, pressure test, and flexibility test.

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

It is a chemical reaction that occurs very slowly and incompletely
without heat. Try mixing raw latex with powdered sulphur if you don't
believe it.

--
cheers,

John B.

[Dennis Davis]

In article <ed3013...@mid.individual.net>,

The small REMA patches are some 15mm in diameter. Larger sizes
exist. I believe the next size up is 25mm in diameter and the oval
REMA patches are available. An ebay search should throw up what's
available by mail order.

Same for the the REMA rubber cement. It comes in different size
tubes, including the small ones you mention. Again an Internet
search should show what's available.

I don't usually have problems using REMA patches & glue. However
puncture repairing technique can be as contentious as chain cleaning
and lubrication advice. I'm going to keep my head down :-)
--
Dennis Davis <denni...@fastmail.fm>

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Rema's results are impressive a knockout over Bell n as a unit glue in patch consistent in glue on stay doahn leak

There are sidewall patches or were.

The NAPA 2 can wudbe a stronger cement but for thicker patches. Acetone and ? content higher for production in a 'shop' setting. Cut's thru dirt.

Vinyl works as vinyl like rubber in DS's post: stricktly requires a vinyl cement ...H66..see NRS.

When I looked a super cement, was involved with patching Spec self sealing tube at $$, went to view n not buy aerospace grade in Henkel


https://goo.gl/DvhszR

Look for yourself.

Take a look at 3M. 3M does not have

a cement for rejoining boot soles..I asked.

Begged

[Tosspot]

UK, but must be available all over

http://www.tyre-equipment.co.uk/acatalog/Vipal-Inner-Tube-Repair-Patches.html

Go up to 180mmx95mm and are less than a UKP per patch.

The 30mm patches are 13 squids per 100! Surely, surely even Joerg can't
get through that amount that fast!

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

A boot sole has flexure like a tire sidewall ...with surface area x forces seriously larger than on a tire plug.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per John B.:

> when I open a sealed tube, in the kit on the bike, I
>replace it with another sealed one as find the glue has dried up is
>not quite so much of a catastrophe at home

Ever since I opened a virgin, unopened tube (at home, thankfully) and
found it had dried up, I write the purchase date on each tube and carry
at least two unopened tubes in my patch kit.

Probably wretched excess, since I always carry at least one spare inner
tube - and sometimes two...
--
Pete Cresswell

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Jeorg, considering the amount and extent of flats that you get perhaps you should observe Tosspot's recommendations:

http://www.tyre-equipment.co.uk/acatalog/PSF-Plus-Tyre-Sealant--PSF_Plus.html

[AMuzi]

The chemistry of hot and cold vulcanizing materials is
slightly different but either system can give good results.
Cold patch cement doesn't work with hot patch systems for
example.

[David Scheidt]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
:On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 02:47:50 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt

Yes, but fortunately the world has smart chemists who have invented
processes that work better than sulphur and heat do. Vulcanizing
accelerators are used in pretty much every rubber production process,
because it gives better results, is faster, and requires less energy.


--
sig 26

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

hot patch with new rubber is boot cement. Including water soluble hot patch as per NB &*)()$$#1234=0 !

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

are acetone n MEK qualifying as accelerators ? or is there another name category ?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Pete, better fast than mugged

or beaned with a full beer can

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-03 18:47, David Scheidt wrote:
> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
> :On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:04:40 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> :wrote:
>
> :>Gentlemen,
> :>
> :>Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
> :>kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
> :>cheap small tubes are available.
> :>
> :>The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
> :>blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
> :>The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
> :>and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
> :>REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
> :>but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>
> :My LBS usually has small sealed tubes of glue. When I see them I buy
> :four or five and when I open a sealed tube, in the kit on the bike, I
> :replace it with another sealed one as find the glue has dried up is
> :not quite so much of a catastrophe at home :-)
>
> :Or you might try contact cement what I suspect is what is in the usual
> :tire patching kit.
>
> :By the way, "vulcanizing" implies the use of heat, and sulphur, and I
>
> Vulcanizing may have the connotation of involving heat, but it's a chemical
> reaction, which results in the sulphur in the rubber becoming
> crosslinked.

That's how I also remember it.


> ... Patches, at least the good ones such as Rema and park,

> are a multi-layered assembly. The top layers are for strength, the
> bottom (closest to the tube) consists of unvulcanized rubber, mixed
> with a vulcanizing ultra-accelerator (there are a number of zinc
> thiols that are suitable, which ones are used are trade secrets. ZDDP
> is typical, though). vulcanizing cement consists of a unvulcanized
> rubber particles, a solvent to carry them, and a vulcanizing
> activator. Cyclohexylamine is common, but there are others that will
> work, and are less toxic. The activator reacts with the zinc thiol,
> and causes the patch, the rubber in the cement, and the surface of
> tube to become vulcanized. There's not much free sulphur in the tube,
> because it's vulcanized, which is one of the reasons that it's
> important to properly scarify the tube surface before patching; it
> greatly increases the surface area of the patch. The reaction is not
> instant, but it happens pretty fast at room temperature, and
> continues for some time, until all the sulphur available has linke.d
>

Ever since I began using REMA patches and the cement that comes with
them my result were less stellar than in Europe with the classic kits.
Those contain much thicker patches that looked like round chunks of
tube, sometimes slightly beveled. Can't find those here in the US.

Currently I have two tubes of the thick expensive kinds where REMA
patches partially came off after test-inflating outside the tire.
Despite being very diligent with sanding and applying.

> The accelerator in the cement is one reason that tubes of glue
> sometimes are just rubber, and not cement.
>

The question is why would be the good ones to buy?

I am usually only doing tube repairs at home, carrying thinner spare
tubes for the road. Except when helping other riders which is the only
reason I even carry a patch kit.

[Joerg]

Thanks, I'll have to look into that. I read that contact cement doesn't
make for a pliable connection which is required on the side walls. Maybe
the people trying and reporting it on the web did something wrong though.

[Joerg]

I have used the big oblong REMAs as well and that's the ones thah failed
the most on sidewalls. They are rather thin.

[Joerg]

I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
is toast only a few months after opening.

It also has to become a pliable connection because those cuts are on the
side walls. Ever since moving to tire liners plus thich tubes plus thick
tire surfaces I don't get "regular" flats via running surface punctures
anymore.

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 01:19, Tosspot wrote:
> On 04/01/17 01:04, Joerg wrote:
>> Gentlemen,
>>
>> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
>> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
>> cheap small tubes are available.
>>
>> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
>> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
>> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
>> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
>> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
>> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>
> UK, but must be available all over
>
> http://www.tyre-equipment.co.uk/acatalog/Vipal-Inner-Tube-Repair-Patches.html
>
>
> Go up to 180mmx95mm and are less than a UKP per patch.
>

Thanks! Time for a trip to the autoparts store since there is

http://www.vipal-usa.com/repair_line_e.html

Looks like a Brazilian company.

> The 30mm patches are 13 squids per 100! Surely, surely even Joerg can't
> get through that amount that fast!
>

I hardly get flats but when I do they are hardcore. Typically caused by
those notorious #%&^!! flimsy side walls of bicycle tires. Which is also
why I am always on the lookout for tires with better side walls. For the
MTB I found that Asian ones do better in that domain but haven't found
any yet for the road bike. Will try CST, their Conquistare tires look
promising but I could not find reviews.

Heavier tires are generally better and finally those appeared for 29".
For 700c it's still slim pickens.

[Joerg]

:-)

I don't get many flats but if I do they are nasty tears on the sides
where tubes flex all the time. Caused by side wall failures of tires.

So I need something that is super strong in the vulcanizing process and
where the tube or can contents won't dry out after just a few months of
storage. I always fix at home so cold storage and the necessity to use
pressure tools and such would be no problem.

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

Use a tire patch or boot, not one for an inner tube. Totally
different problems, totally different solutions.


--
sig 117

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Considering that you get sidewall failures you should probably only use tires that have bead to bead belts and also high thread-count cords. Doing so would give you a dramatic drop in the failures. If you're getting failures of Gatorskins that must be some sort of terrain you commute on.

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

:I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so

:much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
:is toast only a few months after opening.

Go to your local auto parts store. Buy a can of vulcanizing fluid.
It'll come with a brush in the lid. The can in my desk at work has
been open and used for five years. Still good.

--
There's nothing sadder than an ontologist without an ontogenesis.
-- some guy with a beard

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/4/2017 10:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> Ever since I began using REMA patches and the cement that comes with
> them my result were less stellar than in Europe with the classic kits.
> Those contain much thicker patches that looked like round chunks of
> tube, sometimes slightly beveled. Can't find those here in the US.
>
> Currently I have two tubes of the thick expensive kinds where REMA
> patches partially came off after test-inflating outside the tire.
> Despite being very diligent with sanding and applying.

I don't see any value to test inflating a freshly patched tube outside
the tire. You're imparting stresses that the patch-to-tube bond will
never see in its normal working life, and it will be difficult for that
immature bond to resist them.

Patches that have completely cured stand up to being inflate outside the
tire, in my experience. I've never had one fail.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Barry Beams]

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:04:38 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
> cheap small tubes are available.
>
> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>
> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Use E6000 or UV8600 glue.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/3/2017 11:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>
> Contact cement. It's a neoprene rubber based goo that remains fairly
> flexible if applied in a very thin layer. Smear some on both the tire
> and the patch, let air dry for at least 10 minutes (longer is better),
> and stick together with a little compression pressure. I've used a
> roller, two blocks of wood and a C-clamp, and beating on the sandwich
> with a hammer. They all work.

I generally change tubes on the road, then patch the leaking tube at home.

At home, the first step is to clamp a 1" dowel in my bench vise and
drape the tube over it with the leak facing upwards. That's the support
while I scuff the tube using ordinary sandpaper. I find the cylindrical
surface makes it easier to scuff thoroughly.

With the inner tube still hanging from the dowel, I then apply cement,
let it dry a bit and apply the patch. Next I take another dowel held
perpendicular to the one in the vise, and roll back and forth over the
patch to apply pressure. The contact area is thus smaller and the
pressure on the patch greater. I don't believe I've ever had a patch
fail after being applied this way.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

And inflating the tube inside of the tires places compression on the still vulcanizing patch to aid.

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 08:39, David Scheidt wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
> :I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
> :much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
> :is toast only a few months after opening.
>
> Go to your local auto parts store. Buy a can of vulcanizing fluid.
> It'll come with a brush in the lid. The can in my desk at work has
> been open and used for five years. Still good.
>

Excellent idea!

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 09:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/4/2017 10:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>> Ever since I began using REMA patches and the cement that comes with
>> them my result were less stellar than in Europe with the classic kits.
>> Those contain much thicker patches that looked like round chunks of
>> tube, sometimes slightly beveled. Can't find those here in the US.
>>
>> Currently I have two tubes of the thick expensive kinds where REMA
>> patches partially came off after test-inflating outside the tire.
>> Despite being very diligent with sanding and applying.
>
> I don't see any value to test inflating a freshly patched tube outside
> the tire. You're imparting stresses that the patch-to-tube bond will
> never see in its normal working life, and it will be difficult for that
> immature bond to resist them.
>

With Gatorskin tires and shallow rims it is a must. I only did this once
and never again: Fixed a hole on the side of a tube, mounted a new
Gatorskin. Those can take over an hour of wrestling to get the bead
over. Pumped it up. Next morning on the day where I wanted to ride ...
flat :-(

> Patches that have completely cured stand up to being inflate outside the
> tire, in my experience. I've never had one fail.
>

I did.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:04:38 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
> cheap small tubes are available.
>
> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>

> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Permatex #2 Non-hardening

[Joerg]

That was the reason for the tire thread a while ago. Retroguybilly
suggested CST Correre but they don't come in 25mm. I will try their
Conquistare tires which supposedly are 3-ply in the sidewalls.
Unfortunately only for the foldable versions.

The Gatorskin Hardshells are claimed to have improved side walls as well
but I am concerned that they also run too small like regular Gatorskins.
I am tired of having to wrestle them on. They do have good life span
though and I get 2500mi out of a rear tire. Most other riders with other
tires out here get 2000mi or less.

If
> you're getting failures of Gatorskins that must be some sort of
> terrain you commute on.
>

It's unavoidable out here. There is often the occasional "Pavement ends
in 200ft" or plain old singletrack that has to be conquered by road bike
to get to another town. Like at least once a week here:

https://goo.gl/maps/fyCyQs3MC6x

This is also why my road bike is almost as dirty as my MTB. Which causes
another problem for the side walls. A week ago I stopped because of a
weird phhhsssrrt... phhhsssrrt noise. Turns out mud had caked in the
crown of the fork, dried up and was rubbing against the tire.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
>much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
>is toast only a few months after opening.

I've had the same experience. The problem with the leaking bottles
and tubes seems to be related to heat. My squeeze tube of contact
cement doesn't last very long after it's used once, so I'm not sure
that looking for a better glue is the right answer. A better way to
prevent outgassing seems to be a better approach. As David Scheidt
suggests, buying the rubber cement or whatever in a can lasts much
longer. I keep my can inside a plastic Ziploc bag, which seems to
help. I've considered putting it inside a glass jar, and pressurizing
the jar to above the vapor pressure of the solvent to limit loss by
evaporation. I've done this with some chemicals and drugs, but never
tried it with glue.

Also, be sure to test the strength of your contact cement joint.
There's nothing stronger than a vulcanized bond, so I'm fairly sure
that contact cement will not be as strong as a proper vulcanizing
patch. Whether it's strong enough is the question.

>It also has to become a pliable connection because those cuts are on the
>side walls. Ever since moving to tire liners plus thich tubes plus thick
>tire surfaces I don't get "regular" flats via running surface punctures
>anymore.


--

Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 10:00:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

One more suggestion. Perhaps what you want is just a better container
instead of a better glue? I haven't looked into what's available, but
I would think that you might be able to find a better bottle which
does not allow outgassing.

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 10:00, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
>> much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
>> is toast only a few months after opening.
>
> I've had the same experience. The problem with the leaking bottles
> and tubes seems to be related to heat. My squeeze tube of contact
> cement doesn't last very long after it's used once, so I'm not sure
> that looking for a better glue is the right answer. A better way to
> prevent outgassing seems to be a better approach. As David Scheidt
> suggests, buying the rubber cement or whatever in a can lasts much
> longer. I keep my can inside a plastic Ziploc bag, which seems to
> help. I've considered putting it inside a glass jar, and pressurizing
> the jar to above the vapor pressure of the solvent to limit loss by
> evaporation. I've done this with some chemicals and drugs, but never
> tried it with glue.
>
> Also, be sure to test the strength of your contact cement joint.
> There's nothing stronger than a vulcanized bond, so I'm fairly sure
> that contact cement will not be as strong as a proper vulcanizing
> patch. Whether it's strong enough is the question.
>

I'll ask the automotive place for vulcanizing fluid as David suggested.

As for preventing oxygen to get at it I am wondering whether CO2 would
work. I started making beer to trapping some of the CO2 generated during
fermentation shoud be easy. It comes out of the air lock.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:29:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/3/2017 11:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>>
>> Contact cement. It's a neoprene rubber based goo that remains fairly
>> flexible if applied in a very thin layer. Smear some on both the tire
>> and the patch, let air dry for at least 10 minutes (longer is better),
>> and stick together with a little compression pressure. I've used a
>> roller, two blocks of wood and a C-clamp, and beating on the sandwich
>> with a hammer. They all work.

>I generally change tubes on the road, then patch the leaking tube at home.

Same here. However, I don't ride enough to get very many flats. The
bane of my life are leaking tubes. Even brand new tubes (Nashbar's
cheapest) tend to leak. I've done a bubble test and usually find pin
holes at random location. It's not worth the effort doing the full
patch job for a pin hole, so I just stretch the tube so I can see the
hole, fill it with rubber cement, wipe off the excess, and let it dry.
That works, until a new pinhole appears.

Then, there are the leaky tire valves, usually because I've lost the
caps and the valve is full of dirt. Sigh.

>At home, the first step is to clamp a 1" dowel in my bench vise and
>drape the tube over it with the leak facing upwards. That's the support
>while I scuff the tube using ordinary sandpaper. I find the cylindrical
>surface makes it easier to scuff thoroughly.

Good idea. Thanks.

>With the inner tube still hanging from the dowel, I then apply cement,
>let it dry a bit and apply the patch. Next I take another dowel held
>perpendicular to the one in the vise, and roll back and forth over the
>patch to apply pressure. The contact area is thus smaller and the
>pressure on the patch greater. I don't believe I've ever had a patch
>fail after being applied this way.

Yep. Much easier to fix a tire on the bench than on the road. What
drove me nuts and inspired me to carry spare tubes is having more than
one hole in the tube. I would assume that the leak I found is the
only one, patch it, and after putting everything back together, find
the tube still leaking air. After patching one tube 4 times on the
road, and running out of patches, I decided that life is too short to
waste on this exercise.

Flame vulcanizing tire patch:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ennV0BVFZVw>
I did that during the 1960's when I worked in a gas station.

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

Rema patches in action:
https://scontent.ford4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10712862_10203662687383720_3081089766807659838_n.jpg?oh=4d273ffc370221c64b6ecba18eb6d0bb&oe=58E69CCC

https://scontent.ford4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10690277_10203662688503748_8984091252581584807_n.jpg?oh=3ad9f6d24c9e9fdb651f224375ab659c&oe=58E45D94

That tube is still in service, two years later.


:The question is why would be the good ones to buy?

I use rema f1, which are round and 25 mm in diameter. Box of 100
costs ~20 bucks. A half pint bottle of vulcanizing flouid, which will
do hundreds of patches, and last for years (mine has been in my dsk
for five years) costs ~$10 at an auto parts store (very expensive to
ship, buy local.).


--
sig 38

[Radey Shouman]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> writes:

> On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
>>much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
>>is toast only a few months after opening.
>
> I've had the same experience. The problem with the leaking bottles
> and tubes seems to be related to heat. My squeeze tube of contact
> cement doesn't last very long after it's used once, so I'm not sure
> that looking for a better glue is the right answer. A better way to
> prevent outgassing seems to be a better approach. As David Scheidt
> suggests, buying the rubber cement or whatever in a can lasts much
> longer. I keep my can inside a plastic Ziploc bag, which seems to
> help. I've considered putting it inside a glass jar, and pressurizing
> the jar to above the vapor pressure of the solvent to limit loss by
> evaporation. I've done this with some chemicals and drugs, but never
> tried it with glue.

I can't see how that would work -- the partial pressure of the solvent
inside and outside are the only variables that matter. Higher total
pressure should affect diffusion to the outside of the inner container
very little. An outer bag or jar works by concentrating the escaped
solvent, so it's important to keep the volume low.

--

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/4/2017 12:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-01-04 09:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/4/2017 10:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> Ever since I began using REMA patches and the cement that comes with
>>> them my result were less stellar than in Europe with the classic kits.
>>> Those contain much thicker patches that looked like round chunks of
>>> tube, sometimes slightly beveled. Can't find those here in the US.
>>>
>>> Currently I have two tubes of the thick expensive kinds where REMA
>>> patches partially came off after test-inflating outside the tire.
>>> Despite being very diligent with sanding and applying.
>>
>> I don't see any value to test inflating a freshly patched tube outside
>> the tire. You're imparting stresses that the patch-to-tube bond will
>> never see in its normal working life, and it will be difficult for that
>> immature bond to resist them.
>>
>
> With Gatorskin tires and shallow rims it is a must.

Why? Use the proper patching technique (which is not difficult),
reassemble tire and tube then ride. It's silly to subject the fresh
patch to irrelevant stresses.

> I only did this once
> and never again: Fixed a hole on the side of a tube, mounted a new
> Gatorskin. Those can take over an hour of wrestling to get the bead
> over. Pumped it up. Next morning on the day where I wanted to ride ...
> flat :-(
>
>
>> Patches that have completely cured stand up to being inflate outside the
>> tire, in my experience. I've never had one fail.
>>
>
> I did.

I suspect all of us have botched a patch repair at least once. That
should motivate you to use more care and better technique, nothing more.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

The last failed patch job I remember was in 1976, I think. The end
result (pumping an unrepairable tube every five miles, while on a loaded
tour) inspired me to do the subsequent ones more carefully. And to
always carry a spare tube.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I meant for fixing the tube at the location where the side wall blew. I
never attempt to repair the tire because when a side wall went it's
toast. Usually several strands of material are shredded afterwards.

The worst one was a literal explosion in the wilderness but that left an
unfixable huge hole in the tube. It also triggered a micro-stampede of
five cows.

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 10:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/4/2017 12:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-01-04 09:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/4/2017 10:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ever since I began using REMA patches and the cement that comes with
>>>> them my result were less stellar than in Europe with the classic kits.
>>>> Those contain much thicker patches that looked like round chunks of
>>>> tube, sometimes slightly beveled. Can't find those here in the US.
>>>>
>>>> Currently I have two tubes of the thick expensive kinds where REMA
>>>> patches partially came off after test-inflating outside the tire.
>>>> Despite being very diligent with sanding and applying.
>>>
>>> I don't see any value to test inflating a freshly patched tube outside
>>> the tire. You're imparting stresses that the patch-to-tube bond will
>>> never see in its normal working life, and it will be difficult for that
>>> immature bond to resist them.
>>>
>>
>> With Gatorskin tires and shallow rims it is a must.
>
> Why? Use the proper patching technique (which is not difficult),
> reassemble tire and tube then ride. It's silly to subject the fresh
> patch to irrelevant stresses.
>

You never know if that hole was the only one. That's the problem. I
don't want to have to do the bucket of water thing every time. Certainly
not during a drought phase.

>> I only did this once
>> and never again: Fixed a hole on the side of a tube, mounted a new
>> Gatorskin. Those can take over an hour of wrestling to get the bead
>> over. Pumped it up. Next morning on the day where I wanted to ride ...
>> flat :-(
>>
>>
>>> Patches that have completely cured stand up to being inflate outside the
>>> tire, in my experience. I've never had one fail.
>>>
>>
>> I did.
>
> I suspect all of us have botched a patch repair at least once. That
> should motivate you to use more care and better technique, nothing more.
> Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
>
> The last failed patch job I remember was in 1976, I think. The end
> result (pumping an unrepairable tube every five miles, while on a loaded
> tour) inspired me to do the subsequent ones more carefully. And to
> always carry a spare tube.
>

I always carry a spare tube. So far only used for other riders. To my
surprise we even made it home after I crammed my 29" tube into a rider's
26" tire. It was either that or hoofing it.

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

:I meant for fixing the tube at the location where the side wall blew. I

:never attempt to repair the tire because when a side wall went it's
:toast. Usually several strands of material are shredded afterwards.

:The worst one was a literal explosion in the wilderness but that left an
:unfixable huge hole in the tube. It also triggered a micro-stampede of
:five cows.

Take a look aat the pictures I linked to else thread. Rema patches
work fine, properly applied. That tube was mounted wrong, pinched
between the tire and the wheel, and exploded (it sounded like a gun
shot) while hanging on the wall at work. (Not my bike nor mounting
job. I just fix tubes, because I can.



--
sig 87

[Joerg]

Impressive. I wouldn't even have tried to repair that one.

One significant difference is that my tubes are much thicker in their
walls. 3mm on the road bike and 4mm on the MTB. So the tube material is
many times thicker than REMA patches.

>
> :The question is why would be the good ones to buy?
>
> I use rema f1, which are round and 25 mm in diameter. Box of 100
> costs ~20 bucks. A half pint bottle of vulcanizing flouid, which will
> do hundreds of patches, and last for years (mine has been in my dsk
> for five years) costs ~$10 at an auto parts store (very expensive to
> ship, buy local.).
>

Looks like it ships free if you get past $49 with all the other stuff to
be ordered:

https://www.amazon.com/STEELMAN-G10105-Chemical-Vulcanizing-Cement/dp/B00NBTGCLS

The "Slime" brand is cheaper. Do you think the one below works as well?
I was not impressed with their self-healing tubes but this seems to be
other stuff.

https://www.amazon.com/Slime-1050-Rubber-Cement-oz/dp/B003V9UU66

What we do is keep a tab on things that are needed elsewhere. Such as
espresso or (for bike riding) Ultima Replenisher electrolyte powder.
That is then used top fill orders beyond the $49 free-ship barrier.

Also, I'd like to cement on real (thicker) tube material instead of REMA
patches. Don't see a reason why this shouldn't be possible.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 1/4/2017 2:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-01-04 10:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/4/2017 12:40 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-01-04 09:14, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/4/2017 10:17 AM, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ever since I began using REMA patches and the cement that comes with
>>>>> them my result were less stellar than in Europe with the classic kits.
>>>>> Those contain much thicker patches that looked like round chunks of
>>>>> tube, sometimes slightly beveled. Can't find those here in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently I have two tubes of the thick expensive kinds where REMA
>>>>> patches partially came off after test-inflating outside the tire.
>>>>> Despite being very diligent with sanding and applying.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any value to test inflating a freshly patched tube outside
>>>> the tire. You're imparting stresses that the patch-to-tube bond will
>>>> never see in its normal working life, and it will be difficult for that
>>>> immature bond to resist them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> With Gatorskin tires and shallow rims it is a must.
>>
>> Why? Use the proper patching technique (which is not difficult),
>> reassemble tire and tube then ride. It's silly to subject the fresh
>> patch to irrelevant stresses.
>>
>
> You never know if that hole was the only one. That's the problem. I
> don't want to have to do the bucket of water thing every time. Certainly
> not during a drought phase.

I check at the beginning, before patching. It's not difficult.

Well, it's not been difficult for me. I know things are often much
worse for you.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
:> :them my result were less stellar than in Europe with the classic kits.

:> :Those contain much thicker patches that looked like round chunks of
:> :tube, sometimes slightly beveled. Can't find those here in the US.
:>
:> Rema patches in action:
:> https://scontent.ford4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10712862_10203662687383720_3081089766807659838_n.jpg?oh=4d273ffc370221c64b6ecba18eb6d0bb&oe=58E69CCC
:>
:> https://scontent.ford4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10690277_10203662688503748_8984091252581584807_n.jpg?oh=3ad9f6d24c9e9fdb651f224375ab659c&oe=58E45D94
:>
:> That tube is still in service, two years later.
:>

:Impressive. I wouldn't even have tried to repair that one.

:One significant difference is that my tubes are much thicker in their
:walls. 3mm on the road bike and 4mm on the MTB. So the tube material is
:many times thicker than REMA patches.

:>
:> :The question is why would be the good ones to buy?
:>
:> I use rema f1, which are round and 25 mm in diameter. Box of 100
:> costs ~20 bucks. A half pint bottle of vulcanizing flouid, which will
:> do hundreds of patches, and last for years (mine has been in my dsk
:> for five years) costs ~$10 at an auto parts store (very expensive to
:> ship, buy local.).

:>


:The "Slime" brand is cheaper. Do you think the one below works as well?

:I was not impressed with their self-healing tubes but this seems to be
:other stuff.

:https://www.amazon.com/Slime-1050-Rubber-Cement-oz/dp/B003V9UU66

That's what's in my desk at work. Works fine.

:Also, I'd like to cement on real (thicker) tube material instead of REMA

:patches. Don't see a reason why this shouldn't be possible.

There's a really good one: The working surface of a patch is made of
unvulcanized rubber. A tube is vulcanized. With vulcanized rubber on
both sides, there will only be weak cross-linking, and it won't be
good bond. Go ahead and try it, but expect failure. Repair units
exist for a reason.

--
sig 125

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 10:28, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 12:29:31 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/3/2017 11:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Contact cement. It's a neoprene rubber based goo that remains fairly
>>> flexible if applied in a very thin layer. Smear some on both the tire
>>> and the patch, let air dry for at least 10 minutes (longer is better),
>>> and stick together with a little compression pressure. I've used a
>>> roller, two blocks of wood and a C-clamp, and beating on the sandwich
>>> with a hammer. They all work.
>
>> I generally change tubes on the road, then patch the leaking tube at home.
>
> Same here. However, I don't ride enough to get very many flats. The
> bane of my life are leaking tubes. Even brand new tubes (Nashbar's
> cheapest) tend to leak. I've done a bubble test and usually find pin
> holes at random location. It's not worth the effort doing the full
> patch job for a pin hole, so I just stretch the tube so I can see the
> hole, fill it with rubber cement, wipe off the excess, and let it dry.
> That works, until a new pinhole appears.
>
> Then, there are the leaky tire valves, usually because I've lost the
> caps and the valve is full of dirt. Sigh.
>

Try these:

https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Thorn-Resistant-Schrader-Valve/dp/B000BMT2TM

I never looked back. Reviews are mixed and sometimes they do have poor
valve attachment. Also, some are thick only towards the running surface
and that is less protecting than thick all around.

So ask before buying in order to be able to return if not as promised.
As Forest Gump said, "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know
what you gonna get".

The thicker a tube the better it usually is.

[...]

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 11:52, David Scheidt wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> :> :them my result were less stellar than in Europe with the classic kits.
> :> :Those contain much thicker patches that looked like round chunks of
> :> :tube, sometimes slightly beveled. Can't find those here in the US.
> :>
> :> Rema patches in action:
> :> https://scontent.ford4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10712862_10203662687383720_3081089766807659838_n.jpg?oh=4d273ffc370221c64b6ecba18eb6d0bb&oe=58E69CCC
> :>
> :> https://scontent.ford4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/10690277_10203662688503748_8984091252581584807_n.jpg?oh=3ad9f6d24c9e9fdb651f224375ab659c&oe=58E45D94
> :>
> :> That tube is still in service, two years later.
> :>
>
> :Impressive. I wouldn't even have tried to repair that one.
>
> :One significant difference is that my tubes are much thicker in their
> :walls. 3mm on the road bike and 4mm on the MTB. So the tube material is
> :many times thicker than REMA patches.
>
> :>
> :> :The question is why would be the good ones to buy?
> :>
> :> I use rema f1, which are round and 25 mm in diameter. Box of 100
> :> costs ~20 bucks. A half pint bottle of vulcanizing flouid, which will
> :> do hundreds of patches, and last for years (mine has been in my dsk
> :> for five years) costs ~$10 at an auto parts store (very expensive to
> :> ship, buy local.).
> :>
>
>
> :The "Slime" brand is cheaper. Do you think the one below works as well?
> :I was not impressed with their self-healing tubes but this seems to be
> :other stuff.
>
> :https://www.amazon.com/Slime-1050-Rubber-Cement-oz/dp/B003V9UU66
>
> That's what's in my desk at work. Works fine.
>

Thanks. I shall order that along with our next Amazon shipment.

> :Also, I'd like to cement on real (thicker) tube material instead of REMA
> :patches. Don't see a reason why this shouldn't be possible.
>
> There's a really good one: The working surface of a patch is made of
> unvulcanized rubber. A tube is vulcanized. With vulcanized rubber on
> both sides, there will only be weak cross-linking, and it won't be
> good bond. Go ahead and try it, but expect failure. Repair units
> exist for a reason.
>

Ok, then I'll have to order patches as well. I wonder what they were
selling in Europe. It was black, much thicker than REMA and looked like
tube rubber. But had a peel-off surface in back. We'll have German
guests in October, maybe I can have some shipped to their house.

Do REMA patches have an expiration date?

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-03 17:04, Joerg wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
> cheap small tubes are available.
>
> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>

Thanks to all responders (also Barry and Doug). I'll order Slime Rubber
Cement with my next Amazon shipment because that's what David uses, he
says it works well and it isn't expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/Slime-1050-Rubber-Cement-oz/dp/B003V9UU66

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Joerg:

>I always carry a spare tube. So far only used for other riders.

I started carrying at least on extra after getting a flat in
mud in the middle of a field during heavy rain.

Rain can be a real deal-breaker when it comes time to patching a flat.
--
Pete Cresswell

[Mike A Schwab]

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:04:38 PM UTC-6, Joerg wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
> cheap small tubes are available.
>
> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>

> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Larger patches available in Farm supply stores. Here is an online store for glue and large patches. http://www.patchrubber.com/tire_repair/14201.html

[John B.]

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 08:59:30 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid>
wrote:

>Per John B.:

>> when I open a sealed tube, in the kit on the bike, I
>>replace it with another sealed one as find the glue has dried up is
>>not quite so much of a catastrophe at home
>

>Ever since I opened a virgin, unopened tube (at home, thankfully) and
>found it had dried up, I write the purchase date on each tube and carry
>at least two unopened tubes in my patch kit.
>
>Probably wretched excess, since I always carry at least one spare inner
>tube - and sometimes two...

I carry one spare tube for local rides and two if I'm going further
AND a tire patching kit :-)

This "logic" originated with a ride where I flatted twice in a 1 Km.
distance.
--
cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Because of my loss of memory it really irritates me to see a picture like that and know that I've ridden that route on a road bike and yet I can only recognize it if I do it again. It's like the Aptos ride we do. Not only did I recognize every inch of it but I had to be LED because I couldn't remember which turns to take.

We did a San Geronimo ride a month and a half ago and I remembered the restaurant we had lunch in and the route out even though I couldn't remember the route in.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The Rema cement is empty after you crack the top and then don't use it for a couple of months.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

contact cement can renew with acetone or MEK.

again, the can/tube closure is done thus

tube.....squeeze air ot rollup bottom squarely until bottom tube foldind dams against the remaining interior substance....that is oozing out the nozzle

for the oozing you have prepared a patch of grocery bar plastic, cleaned threads of nozzle and cap plus examening cap for washers, rings of dry substance...

squeeze oze of substance from nozzle by pushing on the bottom roll fold...you have a fold of rolled up bottom held against the substance bulge ...and COVER THE OOZE WITH PATCH THEN SCREW THE CAP ON TIGHT BUT DOAHN SPLIT THE CAP.

always keep caps in a cap bin. when the locktite cap blows away there's another in the bin.

||||||||||||

for the can clean threads, size patch n if necessary cut a small X in the middle for the cap brush n stalk.

test cap n threads

find the pipe wrench/channel locks

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1210&bih=612&q=pump+wrench&oq=pump+wrench&gs_l=img.12..0j0i5i30k1l3j0i8i30k1l4j0i24k1.1548.10587.0.13753.29.22.7.0.0.0.325.3479.0j15j2j1.18.0....0...1.1.64.img..5.24.3276...0i10i30k1j0i10i24k1.V3BAswIB9r8#tbm=isch&q=channelocks

or large vise grips

cover opening with patch, or insert brush thru partch hole ....cover hole trying for a unfolded cover of threads from the patch ...

screw cap on ...and tighten slightly with the pliers.

remove cap ? with the pliers

IHS

[cycl...@gmail.com]

That "rubber cement" isn't for gluing rubber. It's an elastic finish if memory serves.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

grocery bag bag bag the one's from walmart or B&N

[John B.]

On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 14:50:23 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:

>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
>:On Wed, 4 Jan 2017 02:47:50 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt

>:<dsch...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>:>John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote:
>:>:On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:04:40 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

>:>:wrote:

>:>
>:>:>Gentlemen,
>:>:>
>:>:>Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
>:>:>kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
>:>:>cheap small tubes are available.
>:>:>
>:>:>The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
>:>:>blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
>:>:>The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
>:>:>and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
>:>:>REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
>:>:>but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.

>:>
>:>:My LBS usually has small sealed tubes of glue. When I see them I buy

>:>:four or five and when I open a sealed tube, in the kit on the bike, I

>:>:replace it with another sealed one as find the glue has dried up is

>:>:not quite so much of a catastrophe at home :-)
>:>
>:>:Or you might try contact cement what I suspect is what is in the usual
>:>:tire patching kit.
>:>
>:>:By the way, "vulcanizing" implies the use of heat, and sulphur, and I
>:>
>:>Vulcanizing may have the connotation of involving heat, but it's a chemical
>:>reaction, which results in the sulphur in the rubber becoming
>:>crosslinked.
>

>:It is a chemical reaction that occurs very slowly and incompletely
>:without heat. Try mixing raw latex with powdered sulphur if you don't
>:believe it.
>
>Yes, but fortunately the world has smart chemists who have invented
>processes that work better than sulphur and heat do. Vulcanizing
>accelerators are used in pretty much every rubber production process,
>because it gives better results, is faster, and requires less energy.

Yes, you are correct in that the original vulcanizing system is no
longer used. But the term, seemingly originating in the 1800's, does
rather imply the Encyclopedia Britannica description, the heating of
rubber in the presence of sulphur.
--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

cements with acetone or mek can renew with acetone or mek....look for the MSDS

[James]

On 05/01/17 10:49, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> The Rema cement is empty after you crack the top and then don't use it for a couple of months.
>

I build a store of punctured tubes, then spend an hour or so patching
them all. A tube of glue doesn't dry out in that time.

--
JS

[cycl...@gmail.com]

This is pretty much what I do. But then you have to have sufficient patches.

[DougC]

On 1/3/2017 7:04 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
> cheap small tubes are available.
>
> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>

Read some of the responses, not all.

I dunno anything stronger than rubber cement. It is dissolved rubber?

The little bicycle tubes of rubber cement are a limited-lifetime thing.
Good for maybe 6 months left sealed; maybe a couple weeks once they're
opened. Leaving them in a car on a summer day can ruin them...

There's just magical ethers that waft out once you pierce the seal, a
lot of glues have this issue. PVC glue is the same way. They sell these
little 12-oz jars at the hardware store, with the metal lid screwed on
so tight that even a strong man needs channel-lock pliers to get it off.
And once it's off, the glue will "dry out" in 3-4 days, no matter how
hard you screw the same lid back on.

Shoe Goo is supposed to be just liquid latex with an aromatic solvent in
it.

[Phil Lee]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 04 Jan 2017
07:27:48 -0800 the perfect time to write:

>On 2017-01-03 20:23, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 17:04:40 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>

>>> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
>>> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
>>> cheap small tubes are available.
>>

>> Contact cement. It's a neoprene rubber based goo that remains fairly
>> flexible if applied in a very thin layer. Smear some on both the tire
>> and the patch, let air dry for at least 10 minutes (longer is better),
>> and stick together with a little compression pressure. I've used a
>> roller, two blocks of wood and a C-clamp, and beating on the sandwich
>> with a hammer. They all work.
>>

>> Rubber cement is a latex rubber based goo. Otherwise, it's similar to
>> contact cement. It also uses many of the same solvents as contact
>> cement. Bicycle patches use heptane, naphtha, or a mixture of both.
>> Rubber and contact cement use these or other organic solvents. There's
>> also a water based version of rubber cement.
>>
>> Contact cement solvents won't evaporate as fast as rubber cement
>> because the contact cement is thicker in the bottle and forms an
>> effective barrier. However, the solvents will rapidly evaporate if
>> the can, bottle, or tube is left in the sun.
>>
>> Contact cement on bicycle tubes is nothing new:
>> <http://www.bicitoro.com/how-to-glue-inner-tubes/>
>> However, if do some Googling, you'll probably find testimonials from
>> people trying contact cement, and claiming it doesn't work. The
>> problem is that while rubber cement vulcanizing patches require
>> cleaning and sanding before applying, some people seem to forget to do
>> these things when using contact cement.
>>
>> I've also tried glue used for patching my wet suit:
>> <https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mcnett-14114-Seal-Cement-2-Oz-Tube-Black/21970283>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9QK0yF540c>
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=neoprene+wetsuit+glue&tbm=isch>
>> <http://www.bodylinewetsuits.co.uk/2015/01/12/using-black-witch-neoprene-glue/>
>> I've only done one tire with wet suit glue and found that it didn't
>> last. However, that was in a rush, with little preparation, no
>> clamping, and I used a piece of vinyl for the patch. I suspect I can
>> improve the bond if I were more organized and careful.

>>
>>> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
>>> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
>>> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
>>> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
>>> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
>>> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>>

>> Hmmm... contact cement is more expensive than rubber cement. If I had
>> to find something cheaper than rubber cement, methinks RTV (room
>> temperature vulcanizing rubber) would probably qualify. The catch is
>> that you might have to wait overnight for the RTV to harden.
>>
>> Anyway, I suggest you sacrifice an old tube, cut it apart, cut some
>> slits, patch with the various available glues, and test the results
>> with a pull test, peel test, pressure test, and flexibility test.

>>
>
>I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
>much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
>is toast only a few months after opening.
>

>It also has to become a pliable connection because those cuts are on the
>side walls. Ever since moving to tire liners plus thich tubes plus thick
>tire surfaces I don't get "regular" flats via running surface punctures
>anymore.

A useful tip for storing cans or bottles of such materials (including
paints, as well) is to store them upside down.
That way, any slight imperfection in the seal around the lid will fill
with the glue, paint, or whatever, and dry to form a perfect seal,
which will preserve the contents.
If you store it right side up, only the vapour will be seeping out of
any imperfections, and the contents will dry out.
The only downside is that it can get difficult to open, if the seal
was particularly bad to start with, as the glue or paint will stick
the lid on rather firmly. But that only happens in the case of a
container in which the contents would have dried out anyway, so you
haven't lost anything.

[Phil Lee]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 04 Jan 2017

10:27:55 -0800 the perfect time to write:

>On 2017-01-04 10:00, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>> On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 07:27:48 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll look into contact cement. Gene also suggested that. Cost is not so
>>> much an issue but shelf life after opening is. The usual rubber cement
>>> is toast only a few months after opening.
>>

>> I've had the same experience. The problem with the leaking bottles
>> and tubes seems to be related to heat. My squeeze tube of contact
>> cement doesn't last very long after it's used once, so I'm not sure
>> that looking for a better glue is the right answer. A better way to
>> prevent outgassing seems to be a better approach. As David Scheidt
>> suggests, buying the rubber cement or whatever in a can lasts much
>> longer. I keep my can inside a plastic Ziploc bag, which seems to
>> help. I've considered putting it inside a glass jar, and pressurizing
>> the jar to above the vapor pressure of the solvent to limit loss by
>> evaporation. I've done this with some chemicals and drugs, but never
>> tried it with glue.
>>
>> Also, be sure to test the strength of your contact cement joint.
>> There's nothing stronger than a vulcanized bond, so I'm fairly sure
>> that contact cement will not be as strong as a proper vulcanizing
>> patch. Whether it's strong enough is the question.
>>
>

>I'll ask the automotive place for vulcanizing fluid as David suggested.
>
>As for preventing oxygen to get at it I am wondering whether CO2 would
>work. I started making beer to trapping some of the CO2 generated during
>fermentation shoud be easy. It comes out of the air lock.

The problem isn't oxygen getting in, it's the volatile solvent getting
out.

[Phil Lee]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> considered Wed, 04 Jan 2017

07:38:10 -0800 the perfect time to write:

>On 2017-01-04 01:19, Tosspot wrote:
>> On 04/01/17 01:04, Joerg wrote:
>>> Gentlemen,

>>>
>>> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
>>> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
>>> cheap small tubes are available.
>>>

>>> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
>>> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
>>> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
>>> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
>>> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
>>> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>>

>> UK, but must be available all over
>>
>> http://www.tyre-equipment.co.uk/acatalog/Vipal-Inner-Tube-Repair-Patches.html
>>
>>
>> Go up to 180mmx95mm and are less than a UKP per patch.
>>
>
>Thanks! Time for a trip to the autoparts store since there is
>
>http://www.vipal-usa.com/repair_line_e.html
>
>Looks like a Brazilian company.
>
>
>> The 30mm patches are 13 squids per 100! Surely, surely even Joerg can't
>> get through that amount that fast!
>>
>
>I hardly get flats but when I do they are hardcore. Typically caused by
>those notorious #%&^!! flimsy side walls of bicycle tires. Which is also
>why I am always on the lookout for tires with better side walls. For the
>MTB I found that Asian ones do better in that domain but haven't found
>any yet for the road bike. Will try CST, their Conquistare tires look
>promising but I could not find reviews.
>
>Heavier tires are generally better and finally those appeared for 29".
>For 700c it's still slim pickens.

You do know that 29" ARE 700c, both using a bead seat diameter of
622mm?
It's just that one description is used for MTB and the other for road
use.

[John B.]

On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 04:36:02 +0000, Phil Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>
wrote:

A pail of water ?
--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Maybe...

Also possible leak continues hardening substance then catylizing into the upside down mass.

Common in caulking gun tunes of eg GE silicone...as a quality product example.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 11:59:28 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

>Try these:
>
>https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Thorn-Resistant-Schrader-Valve/dp/B000BMT2TM
>
>I never looked back. Reviews are mixed and sometimes they do have poor
>valve attachment. Also, some are thick only towards the running surface
>and that is less protecting than thick all around.

Thanks. I should probably get something like that instead of the
cheap tubes that I've been buying. Note that the cheap tubes seem to
leak without any riding. I've built wheels, applied pressure, and
watched the pressure drop slowly over a period of several days. The
leaks are small, difficult to find, tricky to plug without a patch,
and very irritating.

Incidentally, I use mostly Presta valves:
<https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Thorn-Resistant-Presta-Valve/dp/B000AO9ZX4/>

>So ask before buying in order to be able to return if not as promised.
>As Forest Gump said, "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know
>what you gonna get".

I rarely return anything unless its dead on arrival or they shipped me
the wrong stuff. I'll probably just buy one set tubes and see what
happens. $14/ea for 27x1.25. Grumble...

>The thicker a tube the better it usually is.

If it means that I don't have to pump up the tires every time I go for
a ride, I'll pay the price.

[Tosspot]

Whatwhat!! Are you *seriously* claiming r.b.t has been useful!? What
ever is the world coming to?

Let's get back to chain lubes, that's much more fun :-)

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

If there are pin holes yawl bought bad tubes. Buy from Specialized mail odor on Nevada. The supply may vary, winter is OK. Spec thorn proof tubes made with thicker bottom are noticeably more difficult to move into into into into motion ...so if ura weenie ? Being insensate, I transcend that moment n move on joyous n buoyed by air pressure.

Specs with slime like compounds are lighter but more $$, a more difficult problematic repair.

The tube problem as the tire problem is jorgian ... there is an obvious answer on the market so move there with $$

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I have been told that many times. But my CX bike feels absolutely NOTHING like the 29er did. On that the wheels felt massive and heavy. On the CX bike they are nothing of the sort.

[sm12...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 8:04:38 PM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
> cheap small tubes are available.
>
> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>

> --
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

You can use place a second offset patch over an existing Rema patch. This way you can patch long slits using the F1 (25mm) Rema round patch. Patch one at a time, then sand the top of the patch in the direction of the patch center to the end, apply the vulcanizing fluid and apply the next. Repeat the process until the entire slit is patched.

Make sure you start and end about 15 mm beyond the slit. You may also want to cut a small circle around the ends of the slit to stop the slit from expanding when the tube is inflated.

You have not stated the tube size. This is important because the patch must fit within the width of the tube when the tube is flat. I've found I have to use the F0 (16 mm) patch for tube widths less than 25 mm. I've found the wider F1 (25 mm) patch will work with tubes with a nominal width of 28 mm and above.

It's important that the patch edges are "glued." I've found the best way to insure this is to lie the tube on a flat surface and burnish the patch onto the tube after it's applied. I use a center to outside burnishing motion. I use the rounded edge of a Rema patch kit as my burnishing tool.

There are some rubber compounds that won't work with the Rema vulcanizing fluid. It also won't work in cold temperatures or when the tube is wet. However, I've found that most of the time the reason that patches don't adhere is due to improper application - pilot error. Sand over a bigger area than you spread the vulcanizing fluid; spread the vulcanizing fluid over a bigger area than the patch. Spread a thin layer of the vulcanizing fluid and let it dry before applying the patch. Don't blow on the vulcanizing fluid to hasten its drying - the moisture in your breath will neutralize it.

If your tube has a rubber composition that will not work with the Rema vulcanizing fluid, you may want to reconsider your tube choice.

I assume the reason you opt for a thick tube is to avoid flats. However, you are paying 3 times what I pay for normal thickness tubes. At about $0.75 per flat repair, I can make a lot of them to my inexpensive tube before reaching your $15 threshold.

[Joerg]

Phil should try to mount a 29" Intense Trail Taker tire or similar on a
700c road bike. Then it would quickly sink in why this will never work :-)

[Joerg]

This one is the "path" from El Dorado Hills to Folsom. The picture shows
the end of Saratoga Way. After going through mud for a little while
you'll end up at the dead end of Iron Point Road in Folsom.

> We did a San Geronimo ride a month and a half ago and I remembered
> the restaurant we had lunch in and the route out even though I
> couldn't remember the route in.
>

Restaurant always sounds tempting. Provided they have good beer on tap.

[AMuzi]

Joerg, don't be ridiculous. Phil Lee was correct.

A 559mm 26x2.3 tire will mount on the rim but can't possibly
fit inside the frame or fork of a Bridgestone CB1. So what?
A perfectly common 700-35C touring tire won't clear in your
road bike either.

That unsuitably wide tires exist for any given rim diameter
in any given frame doesn't make them different ISO sizes.
There are a spectrum of widths for almost every ISO format,
choice is good!

p.s. A 700-18 ultralight tire would fit your road bike rim
as well. For you, I'd suggest a wider tire.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[cycl...@gmail.com]

In order to make this a regular road bike capable of mounting at least a 32 would be to exchange the crank for a compact and reset the spacing of the front derailleur.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/bik/5920793876.html

This gives you the best of all possible worlds.

[Doug Landau]

> A useful tip for storing cans or bottles of such materials (including
> paints, as well) is to store them upside down.
> That way, any slight imperfection in the seal around the lid will fill
> with the glue, paint, or whatever, and dry to form a perfect seal,
> which will preserve the contents.
> If you store it right side up, only the vapour will be seeping out of
> any imperfections, and the contents will dry out.
> The only downside is that it can get difficult to open, if the seal
> was particularly bad to start with, as the glue or paint will stick
> the lid on rather firmly. But that only happens in the case of a
> container in which the contents would have dried out anyway, so you
> haven't lost anything.

That sounds good.
But it doesn't explain the pail of water.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

'This is important because the patch must fit within the width of the tube when the tube is flat'

how is this?

again the concept is road bike not TdF bike or Criterium or ...road bike.

a road bike frame....fast geometry touring ? .... should accept a 35. The diff ...for whatever ... tween 28 n 35 will not get you anywhere faster...prob slower.

I went thru the lot except the NAPA and the Henkle ....NAPA's aromatic solvents evaped in the heat...boooohooo .....excremental.

Rema wins.

tires on different geometries of trail and wheelbase will feel different ....the darters leave less ongoing inertial contact patching for your sensors for some causing terminal sensory overload. but i the preceding, the road bike is prob faster over the road...not over the time trial...the road .... your overload is kinda psycho or neuro somatic

[AMuzi]

How the hell would a crank change squeeze a 32mm tire
between Joerg's road bike chainstays??

[AMuzi]

Tipping a pail of water upside down is a different
phenomenon altogether.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

Tipping a pail of water upside down is a different
phenomenon altogether.

*********************************

goo.gl/htJRyM

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

why would anyone answer that ?

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

why would anyone answer that ?

tho tiring the suggestion does reveal intelligence on 36's part but calling the frog a nwet ya know.......

here's a good one.....opening the image I said AHA TEXAS


close, NC at Rallye.

I watched one outside Austin form a Ford dealer...hadda whine abt not getting service caws no one showed for work.

The tuber had a webcam setup near an interception similar to Vail Summit where we waited for the inevitable hi speed rollover down the off ramp embankment into a culvert abt 50' down.

[Phil Lee]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> considered Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:52:43

That may be a lot less daft than it appears at first sight, but isn't
very portable.
I just store containers upside down, which seems to work well for
everything from assorted types of paint to various glues.
Small tubes are more of a problem, as they can develop pinholes just
from flexing while they are being carried, so it's not necessarily the
lid that isn't sealing.
I suppose if I was still able to ride, I might be tempted to
experiment with RTV silicon coating or vinyl dipping the tube before
use, but any test I could do now would be invalid for normal cycling
use - I do have a patch kit in the wheelchair bag, but it (the
wheelchair) sees far less use than any bicycle I've owned, and I've
never needed to open the patch kit at all (I also carry a spare inner
tube, and have never had a repairable puncture in a tube on the
chair).

[John B.]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 01:53:57 +0000, Phil Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk>

What? You never heard of Jack and Jill, who went up the hill to get a
pail of water?

Or a "bucket of beer? See
https://www.quora.com/How-did-a-bucket-of-beer-become-a-standard

>I just store containers upside down, which seems to work well for
>everything from assorted types of paint to various glues.
>Small tubes are more of a problem, as they can develop pinholes just
>from flexing while they are being carried, so it's not necessarily the
>lid that isn't sealing.
>I suppose if I was still able to ride, I might be tempted to
>experiment with RTV silicon coating or vinyl dipping the tube before
>use, but any test I could do now would be invalid for normal cycling
>use - I do have a patch kit in the wheelchair bag, but it (the
>wheelchair) sees far less use than any bicycle I've owned, and I've
>never needed to open the patch kit at all (I also carry a spare inner
>tube, and have never had a repairable puncture in a tube on the
>chair).

--
cheers,

John B.

[Radey Shouman]

What is a rhetorical question?

--

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

A question needs upgrading ?

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 22:55, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jan 2017 11:59:28 -0800, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Try these:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Thorn-Resistant-Schrader-Valve/dp/B000BMT2TM
>>
>> I never looked back. Reviews are mixed and sometimes they do have poor
>> valve attachment. Also, some are thick only towards the running surface
>> and that is less protecting than thick all around.
>
> Thanks. I should probably get something like that instead of the
> cheap tubes that I've been buying. Note that the cheap tubes seem to
> leak without any riding. I've built wheels, applied pressure, and
> watched the pressure drop slowly over a period of several days. The
> leaks are small, difficult to find, tricky to plug without a patch,
> and very irritating.
>

Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you
had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists
think this is "normal".

> Incidentally, I use mostly Presta valves:
> <https://www.amazon.com/Sunlite-Thorn-Resistant-Presta-Valve/dp/B000AO9ZX4/>
>

They come in both. Often also long or short stem.

>> So ask before buying in order to be able to return if not as promised.
>> As Forest Gump said, "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know
>> what you gonna get".
>
> I rarely return anything unless its dead on arrival or they shipped me
> the wrong stuff.

If something was clearly overpromised I generally return it. It is the
only way for manufacturers to learn to be honest.


> ... I'll probably just buy one set tubes and see what

> happens. $14/ea for 27x1.25. Grumble...
>

It is so worth it. I can just walk into our garage, pick the most
suitable bike for the ride, hop on, and ride. No pumping up the tires
first. While riding I can be assured that the spare tube and patch kits
will most likely only be needed for other riders.

>> The thicker a tube the better it usually is.
>
> If it means that I don't have to pump up the tires every time I go for
> a ride, I'll pay the price.
>

Do it. You won't look back. However, you bike will now weigh around two
pounds more and the wheels will have a much higher rotating mass. Your
average speed might also drop by an mph. A small price to pay for the
huge increase in likelihood to arrive on time instead of sitting on the
side of the road in 40F weather fixing a flat.

[Joerg]

Tires formally labeled as 29" are simply not available in 25mm. At least
AFAICT.

> A 559mm 26x2.3 tire will mount on the rim but can't possibly fit inside
> the frame or fork of a Bridgestone CB1. So what? A perfectly common
> 700-35C touring tire won't clear in your road bike either.
>
> That unsuitably wide tires exist for any given rim diameter in any given
> frame doesn't make them different ISO sizes. There are a spectrum of
> widths for almost every ISO format, choice is good!
>

Well, there aren't skinny 29" tires.

> p.s. A 700-18 ultralight tire would fit your road bike rim as well. For
> you, I'd suggest a wider tire.
>

Yes, I had very narrow tires before and found that 25mm is better for
where I now ride. 28mm would theoretically fit but only when the rear is
very well trued which does not hold for long on my routes. I am also not
very talented for trueing a wheel.

[Joerg]

Oh, I could squeeze that tire in there provided I pump it up afterwards.
A minor side effect would be that my bike would then become a stationary
one where the rear wheel won't turn :-)

[Joerg]

On 2017-01-04 15:55, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 12:05:54 PM UTC-8, Joerg wrote:

>> On 2017-01-03 17:04, Joerg wrote:
>>> Gentlemen,
>>>
>>> Is there something stronger than the usual rubber cement in the patch
>>> kits? Ideally something that won't dry out so fast or where multiple
>>> cheap small tubes are available.
>>>
>>> The reason is that I sometimes have larger holes from side wall
>>> blow-outs. Not inch-long gashes but one or two tenths of an inch long.
>>> The tubes I use are super thick and, therefore, expensive. $15-20 each
>>> and that's not something to be thrown out lightly. Instead of the li'l
>>> REMA patches I need to use thicker rubber from an older sacrified tube
>>> but this has to be vulcanized/cemented really well.
>>>
>>

>> Thanks to all responders (also Barry and Doug). I'll order Slime Rubber
>> Cement with my next Amazon shipment because that's what David uses, he
>> says it works well and it isn't expensive:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Slime-1050-Rubber-Cement-oz/dp/B003V9UU66
>>
>>

>> --
>> Regards, Joerg
>>
>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>

> That "rubber cement" isn't for gluing rubber. It's an elastic finish if memory serves.
>

AFAIK it contains Heptane and is meant to partially dissolve the already
vulcanized tube surface so the patch materials kind of partially flows
into tht tube material for a durable bond.

[Joerg]

Usenet is very useful, I guess that's where the name comes from. A lot
of hints here go into my bicycle files, in the sense of "If ... ever
breaks consider replacing it with ..." or "If it breaks don't ever use ...".

When I mentioned in a post in a newsgroup that I had bonked, want to
avoid it but can't stand the cyclist astronaut food or any sweet stuff
someone responded with a link to a recipe for homemade non-sweet power
bars. My wife bakes them to this day. Yesterday I shared these bars with
another rider who really likes them as well. Can't buy them anywhere.

Another example was a "how to" post I let off in some home improvement
newsgroup about a decade ago, on how to change the bulb in a designer
task light which is quite tricky. You need the manufacturers link to the
drawing to really understand things. Year later the link broke and I
still receive request about it. Luckily I have a local copy of that PDF
file.

> Let's get back to chain lubes, that's much more fun :-)
>

Or talk about bike paths :-)

[Joerg]

Up to 2.4" for the MTB and up to 25mm for the road bike.

> It's important that the patch edges are "glued." I've found the best
> way to insure this is to lie the tube on a flat surface and burnish
> the patch onto the tube after it's applied. I use a center to outside
> burnishing motion. I use the rounded edge of a Rema patch kit as my
> burnishing tool.
>
> There are some rubber compounds that won't work with the Rema
> vulcanizing fluid.

Oh. That would be a concern. I didn't know things were this finicky.

It also won't work in cold temperatures or when
> the tube is wet. However, I've found that most of the time the reason
> that patches don't adhere is due to improper application - pilot
> error. Sand over a bigger area than you spread the vulcanizing fluid;
> spread the vulcanizing fluid over a bigger area than the patch.
> Spread a thin layer of the vulcanizing fluid and let it dry before
> applying the patch. Don't blow on the vulcanizing fluid to hasten its
> drying - the moisture in your breath will neutralize it.
>
> If your tube has a rubber composition that will not work with the
> Rema vulcanizing fluid, you may want to reconsider your tube choice.
>

There is no choice. I need very thick tubes and those are generally only
available from Sunlite. Soemtimes Kenda. One has to watch out for tubes
which are asymmetrical and only thicker towards the running surface.
Those are not as good as tubes that are thick all around.

> I assume the reason you opt for a thick tube is to avoid flats.
> However, you are paying 3 times what I pay for normal thickness
> tubes. At about $0.75 per flat repair, I can make a lot of them to my
> inexpensive tube before reaching your $15 threshold.
>

Doesn't matter to me. I simply do not wish to be delayed in my travels
by yet another flat and then arrive late and with dirty hands.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

analog

One has to watch out for tubes
which are asymmetrical and only thicker towards the running surface.
Those are not as good as tubes that are thick all around.

squirrels carry blowguns n wait in the scrub ?

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

:Yup. Standard bicycle tubes are usually junk. Would you accept it if you

:had to pump up the tires of your car every two weeks? Yet most cyclists
:think this is "normal".

Automotive tires have a much lower ratio of surface area to volume
than bike tires. They're also run a lower pressure, for the most
part. So even if the permiability of the two tires were the same,
car tires would lose pressure slower. Of course, automotive tires are
much more impermiable, because they're heavier and thicker (the
inner liner of a typical car tire weighs as much as a bike tire does,
all by itself.)

--
sig 112

[Joerg]

No, pinch flats that can occur when hitting surprise objects such as
rocks or during "unplanned excursions off of the beaten path". As
happened yesterday on my road bike. Had a runny nose, took both hands
off the bar for a few seconds ... RAT-TAT-TAT

Then there is the debris that gets flipped up when rolling over it and
pierces the side wall.

If bicycle tires had sturdy side walls the chances would be lower. But
they don't.